WEBVTT - How to Design for Elite and Average Golfers Simultaneously 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:02.960 How do you design a golf course that can host 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.960 major tournaments but still be enjoyable for the average golfer. 0:00:07.520 --> 0:00:11.000 That's what I'm talking about today with Mike Cocking. Mike 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.920 is an Australian golf architect and a partner with the 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:19.280 firm OCM alongside Jeff Ogilvie and Ashley Mead. Recently, OCM 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.479 completed a redesign of Medina Country Club Course three. This 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.000 course is scheduled to host the twenty twenty six President's Cup. 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:30.920 So in order to understand how golf architects can balance 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:35.120 elite tournament golf with everyday amateur play, Mike and I 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.640 will dig into how he thought through this project at Medina, 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.879 how he created holes that will test the abilities of 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:46.840 the world's best players without making regular members miserable. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:48.000 It's not easy. 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:58.720 I'm Garrett Morrison and this is designing golf. So, Mike, 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.680 you were a high level amateur player initially before you 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:03.880 were an architect. 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:05.240 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.280 Did you think about golf architecture differently when you were 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:10.680 focused on playing than you do now? 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.160 Yeah? Absolutely, yeah. I think. 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:19.880 When I was really young and playing competitively, I'm not 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.200 sure I really understood why I liked particular holes. I 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.240 knew there were certain courses I really liked, certain holes 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.199 I really liked, but I hadn't really joined the dots, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:35.280 you know, And it probably wasn't until a friend gave 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.280 me The Anatomy of a Golf Course, Tom's book, and 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.720 I had the Confidential Guide, and that was a big 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:46.759 learning curve for me. And then I was playing competitively 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.520 and traveling a lot overseas playing competitively. Just as I 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.240 started to get good, I was on different teams and things, 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.640 you know. So I went to the UK and it 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.800 was pre internet, so I would reference the Confidential Guide 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.200 and see, you know, were playing at Hoylake or something. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.240 I'd look through and there'd be three or four courses 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.400 in the area that Tom had raided very well, and 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.440 he'd sort of pointed out things to look at, and 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:12.240 so I'd ride away to them, and then when I 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:13.960 was there for the tournament, I'd go and either play 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.560 or just walk those courses. So that for me was 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.680 a that was a big learning curve. And then when 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:20.880 I came back home as well, I would start looking 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:23.520 a bit more critically at the courses. 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.919 You said you liked, certain courses, but you didn't know why. Yeah, 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.400 were they the same courses that you like? Now? Was 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:30.800 there just? 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:35.600 Yeah, I think I'm motivated. I think visuals play a 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.960 big part for me. So, you know, I always loved 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.120 Royal Melbourne, and I think it was the scale of it, 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.600 and you know, the style of the bunkering and just 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.079 the general esthetic of the golf course. But then there 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.040 were holes there that you know, you had to make interesting. 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.160 They were interesting decisions, you know, whether to take on 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.040 a bunker or play away from the bunker, and I had, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:57.600 you know, you kind of figure out that no, if 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.600 I play away from the bunker, that shot into the 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.280 greensby harder or you know, it's a bit longer, or 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:03.799 it's a shittier angle or whatever. 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:06.560 Yeah. 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:10.160 So I think generally speaking, probably when I was really young, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.040 it was sort of at the tail end of that 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:18.280 era of where hard was sort of seen as being better. 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.040 You know, there was that era of you know where 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.240 people saw places like firestone and stuff and thought that 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:30.360 was the you know, so that probably changed for me. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.080 You know, as I've got older, I think I typically 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.040 like courses that are more fun and wider and more 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.640 interesting rather than necessarily challenging me. 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.680 Did you believe harder was better for a while? Is 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.640 that something that you absorbed from people who are around you, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.000 and you know it took seriously. 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.440 Not necessarily. I mean, there was a certain you know, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.000 there was a certain sense of pride if you went 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.040 and played a hard course, you know, and you played 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.880 well where you hit some good shots. But no, I 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:08.640 don't think so, you know, I think you, as good players, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:12.640 you do often fall into the trap of thinking, of 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.720 course that you played well on is good. You know, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.560 that's pretty common. You have a good score there, and 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:18.640 therefore it's. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.200 Always hard to separate that out, even people who supposedly 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:23.440 know a lot about architecture. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.040 I absolutely study it. Absolutely. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.800 It's trying to separate out that good feeling about playing well. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:30.800 Which is why I mean, to be honest, when I 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.760 go and see golf course, I actually prefer not. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:33.080 To play it. 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.520 I prefer to walk it, because you do get a 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.080 bit too focused on or you look at the course 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.159 through the lens of how you've played it that day, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.479 but also where your ball is on the fairway. You know, 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.280 if you miss the fairway to the right, you don't 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:47.800 know all the cool stuff you didn't see all the 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.800 cool stuff that was happening down the left of the hole, right. 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.479 So yeah, these days, in a perfect world, I'd go 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:55.200 and walk a golf course in the morning and maybe 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.440 play it in the afternoon. But you invariably don't have 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.280 the luxury of that much time. 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.240 I do that when I can, you know, but it's, uh, 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.680 it makes for a long day if you see. It's 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:08.440 kind of like, if that's the one course you're seeing, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.039 then maybe maybe you can do that. So when you 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.560 were focused on playing, were there particular types of courses 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.920 that you found particularly challenging? What for you made made 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.599 a difficult golf course when when you were playing. 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.400 The first time I went to the States and played, 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.080 I actually really struggled with the rough. 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:33.640 Around the greens, to be honest. 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:35.599 Because you just weren't used to it. 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:35.880 Yeah. 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.359 You grew up here short grass around the greens for 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.279 the most part. Yeah, and it's different. 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:40.600 Yeah. 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.039 And my short game was probably one of the strengths 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:44.839 of my game. It was a good part of but 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.960 very good chipping, bunkers, pitching, and I didn't hit a 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.960 lot of greens in regulation. That was probably I wasn't 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:57.159 that consistent you know, so here or in the UK, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.640 if I missed a green, I would back myself to 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:01.920 get up down. And when I went to the States, 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.679 I found you know, I'd hit ten or twelve greens 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.800 in regulation, but the six or eight I missed, I 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.200 just didn't. I couldn't hit that shot. I couldn't master 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:15.039 that chart. I still, to be honest, I still struggle 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.400 a little bit with it. But Jeff's kind of shown 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.640 me a couple of things I've whizzed him about it. Yeah, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.719 it's just not a shot that comes naturally to me. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.320 Yeah, you're design partner. Jeff Ogilvie often says that short 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.800 grass tends to bother most other players. 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:32.920 Yeah, but I guess. 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.680 That equation has flipped depending on what your initial experience is. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.279 Most players will grow up, you know, especially in the States, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.080 will grow up playing with rough around the greens, and 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:45.960 so for them, short grass around the greens can be 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:47.120 a kind of kryptonate. 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.480 Yeah, and look for most people, and certainly it's an 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:51.520 argument that we make a lot of the courses we 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.640 work out, particularly in America, that we would much prefer 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.520 to see short grass. It's a bit more it's a 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.120 more interesting you know, way to treat the area around 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.760 the green on options, and it can be a lot 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:06.520 tricky if for bit applies too. The irony is that 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:10.080 for me, it's probably the opposite, the opposite. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.240 So really what you're doing is you're going around and 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:13.760 building courses make it easy for me. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.240 Yeah, absolutely, all. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.680 Right, So let's talk a little bit about the the 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:25.440 media Course three renovation. Yeah, you know, we we that 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.480 our theme today is you know, how to make courses 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:33.400 more challenging or more interesting for elite players and maybe 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.600 doing that at the same time that you make them 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.200 more fun for amateurs. A lot of people are interested 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.400 in this question of how that's accomplished. It's a big, 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.600 big issue for golf architects right now, especially since at 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.000 the top level of the game, the way the game 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.200 is played is changing so much and it's it's hard 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.160 to adjust to that. It's hard for architects to find 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:58.440 new ways to challenge players who are constantly breaking through 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:05.440 the defenses of of various classic courses. So your firm 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.720 OCM recently completed a redesign of Course three at Medina 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.680 Country Club in Chicago. For people who don't know, this 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.720 is a course that has been highly ranked, has hosted 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.920 a number of majors, will host the twenty twenty six 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.400 twenty six Cup. And so how did this job come about? 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:26.880 It's a funny story. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:31.240 We were well, I was it Shady Oaks in Fort Worth, 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:32.839 which was sort of the first course. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:33.960 We did in America. 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.600 That was our kind of big break, I would say, 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:41.040 And I still remember we were I was on the 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.560 eighteenth green, it was the last green we would have finish, 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.640 and an email popped up on my phone from the 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:52.240 course superintendent at Madonna then with Steve Cook and asking 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:56.920 if we'd be interested in being shortlisted for this Madonna project, 0:08:58.080 --> 0:08:58.559 which was. 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:03.200 Like, yeah, it's like it's going to say that seriously. 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.040 And not two days later, I've got an other email 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.120 from the Australian government saying if you don't come home now, 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.840 you may never come home. Because this was when this 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.200 was when COVID. Yes, this is late, this is better 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:19.439 re enter the country. Yeah, this is this is March 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:20.160 twenty twenty. 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:21.240 Okay, wow. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.920 So and I think the first whispers of COVID that 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.760 I that we heard was I think I want to 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.160 say about December twenty nineteen was when there was sort 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:31.959 of a few reports, and I was still going back 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.959 and forth each month to America. So it went from 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.880 sort of elation thinking, wow, we'll just you know, I 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:40.840 think I spoke to Ashley and Jeff and said, well, 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:43.160 I was just trying to arrange, well, let's go up 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.520 to Chicago and we'll spend a few days there. And 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.960 then all of a sudden, it was, you know, the 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.240 chances it was getting this job of just diminished. So 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.080 the club, they were very good, they were very patient. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:10:01.080 I went home, but we continued to converse and we 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:06.800 ended up pitching for the job from Melbourne. We hadn't 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.680 seen the course. Jeff had seen the course. Jeff had 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.720 played there in the two thousand and six PGA, which 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:17.000 Tiger won. Yes, but his memory of the course was 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.200 not that clear. I mean it was he played with 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:23.920 Tiger and Phil and so there were millions of people, 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.440 and so you know, you don't get it necessarily a 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.959 great appreciation of every hole. You're just looking at the 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:31.760 twenty two yard wide fairways that you're on. 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:33.520 He played with Tiger and fell. 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:34.280 Yeah, it was crazy. 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:36.600 Yeah, the first two days and he played well, I want. 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:37.920 To say it was that was around the time when 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:40.360 he was really yeah. Yeah, he hadn't great forum. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:40.880 Well, he'd won the. 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:45.120 US Open that year, he was probably top I think 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.640 he got to four in the world, it was probably 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:52.520 around that time, so he was playing really well. Yes, 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:57.440 So we pitched on it. That were very fortunate. A 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.839 good friend of ours was living in Chicago and was 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.160 able to take some drone footage of the course, and 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.040 I remember being on the phone with him saying, well, 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.920 could you maybe take some photos from this position right 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:11.080 at the first green, or can. 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:12.439 You go over here? Can you go over there? 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.200 So we got some very good drone footage, some good 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.360 ground shots, We had some really good historical records. We 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.440 had enough to put a pitch together and say, well, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:23.160 if we were to win the job, this is the 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.160 sort of things that we'd be thinking of. These are 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.640 the sorts of courses we like. We had a zoom 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.600 call and then in the end it worked out that 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.040 Shady Oaks was just about to open, and so we 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.480 arranged for We couldn't get there, but we arranged for 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.960 the Madina Green's Committee to go down to Shady Oaks 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.880 and there they at least got to walk speak to 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.880 a client and got to see a course. That we're 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.440 designed and understand what we like and what we don't like, 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:51.120 and they saw some things there that they really really liked, 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.920 so we won that job. We ended up doing a 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.520 lot of the conceptual work actually still here because we 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.719 still couldn't travel, couldn't get over there. And then in 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:07.080 sort of June or July twenty one, I think, yeah, 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:08.720 Ashley and I went over to the States for about 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.960 eight weeks and that history has shown that was such 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.480 a critical visit for us. We had to get government permission. 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.840 It was weird, like, you know that we're in full 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.600 lockdown here and a day after we landed, we're at 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:27.960 Wrigley Field with forty five thousand people with no masks Australia. 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.119 It was like, what the hell is going on to America? 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.480 But it was a really it was an important visit. 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.280 I think if we hadn't have gone, I'm sure you know, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.200 the club would have had to look elsewhere. You know, 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:41.880 you can't design it from here, so we had to 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.920 get there. But we also looked at a site down 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.560 in Georgia which ended up being the Full Line, which 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.240 is another which is our first new project in America. 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.360 So that that visit was literally that was the starting 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.640 point for us of working in America. So it was very, 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:57.120 very very important. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.680 From the club's perspective, what was the at us for 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.120 bringing you in changing direction. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.839 Look, they even if they didn't want to redesign the 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.040 golf course, they had to spend a lot of money 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.000 upgrading it. So it didn't have a drainage system on 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.720 course three, which is pretty amazing. So of course in 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.360 Chicago especially, Yeah, so of course one and two did. 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.120 And a big part of the upgrade of both of 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.960 those courses was getting like a macro drainage plan in there. 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.840 The irrigation system was old. Things like card paths were all, 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:36.040 you know, in need of upgrade. The greens were really struggled. 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:38.760 They'd struggled with turf there for a long time. I 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.120 remember Steve Cook pointing out that that year that Halo 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:47.240 win won, they were spray painting. They were painting fairways 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.160 and painting the edges of the fairways, so they said 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.440 they looked green. They struggled with turf, so there were 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.000 too many trees, greens were too small. I struggled with 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.600 sort of access and egress, and so they needed There 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:01.319 was a certain number of things they needed to do, 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.080 so I guess their point was, well, if we're going 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.720 to spend all of this money on upgrading the infrastructure, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:12.640 why wouldn't we look at a redesign. Because from the 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.520 average members had seen the course, it was very highly ranked, 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:18.240 but that had kind of dwindled, and then I think, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.560 to be honest, there are a number of people there 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.480 that recognized that it was a brilliant club, a wonderful club, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.680 but looking critically at course three, they really felt that 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.480 it could be much better than it was. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.240 Was part of the brief to make it more challenging 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.640 for pros. The backdrop of this being yeah, yeah, justin 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.800 Thomas going out there and lighting the coruscan fire at 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.560 a PGA Tour event in what twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen, 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:47.440 sometime around there. 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.479 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. I think it was the BMW. 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:55.320 And interestingly, if he's since come back and played Madonna 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.480 with a friend, didn't shoot sixty one again, It's interesting 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:01.640 he said, because he was I've sort of heard this 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.480 story secondhand, but he was playing terribly that week and 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.400 he was saying that, you know, I spoke to my 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.160 dad the night before he had that round and he 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.040 said I really wasn't playing well, and he said, and 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:13.560 if you look at that round, he said, like he 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.200 hold a weg shot, he hold everything. He looked at 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.520 like it was a you know, he said, I'm so 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:22.480 sick of people blaming me for redoing the golf course. 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:23.440 I mean, we're not. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.640 But yeah, exactly, it's like or is it credit? 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.040 So it was just one of those rounds that you know, 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:34.400 it could have been anywhere. He literally hold everything. So yeah, 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.680 look it was I mean, I think they are very proud. 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.640 They're very proud of their tournament history. So they were 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.040 conscious of that. They didn't want it to be torn up, 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.000 you know, in the future. But so there was sort 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:48.720 of there are a number of different goals. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:49.040 You know. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.240 There were those that looked at the architecture, there were 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.520 those that looked at tournament history, and there were those 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.920 that looked at the you know, the turf quality and 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.360 infrastructure and stuff like that. 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.600 So there are a number of things that you did 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.440 to chorus three. We can't really go through all of 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.560 them because it really is quite the reimagining of the 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:14.360 golf course. But just to give people an idea, what 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.000 was the character of the chorus before you started working 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:18.360 on it. 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.480 So I think one of the you know, it was 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.200 it's three hundred and fifty acres, very big property. There 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.720 were twenty four acres of fairway. Yeah, not much, not much. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.240 It was incredibly difficult for the average golfer. Fairways were narrow. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.120 It was a classic sort of order I would as 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.440 a Melbournian. It was what I would regard as a 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:45.280 classic parkland American style golf course. You know, they were lucky. 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.920 They had beautiful trees, amazing oak trees. There's a handful 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.560 of trees on that course from the sixteen fifties, which 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:52.680 is very cool. 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:54.360 Beautiful old oaks. 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.600 It was narrow, it was lush, it was green. It 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.560 was a bit monochromatic, you know, just everything you looked 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:05.880 at was green. All the green complexes were pretty similar, 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.320 and a lot of a lot of the course features 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.399 that had been built looked very looked quite artificial, I 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:17.160 would say. So what we did we did a number 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.040 of different things. We certainly increased the amount of short grass. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.120 Probably there's about fifty five acres now, so more than double. 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:26.600 There we looked at. 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.600 It was not a restoration, but there were elements of 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.160 the original. Tom bendel Our course that we found interesting. 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:36.760 Some of the bunkering that he had on the course 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.199 was really interesting. It looked like, you know, tilling Us 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.240 had built it like. So that became the idea of 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.800 the bunkering style. We wanted something much more natural and rugged. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.680 We wanted to introduce some longer fescue that would brown 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.800 off to provide some textural differences. The big thing though, 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.639 was we re routed the last six holes. That was 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.800 kind of the That was pretty bold, And to be honest, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:00.720 I think because we're on the other side of the 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.760 world and we didn't have the emotional ties with that course, 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.840 it was probably easier for us to suggest that change 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.840 than if we were like local to Chicago, you know, 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:13.680 because we didn't have that you. 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.280 Know, Yeah, the associations with the tournaments and those holes 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.840 and yeah, there's I mean, I wouldn't say it's the 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:26.240 most beloved American course, but certainly people have an image 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.200 in their minds. Americans have an image of their mind 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.920 in their mind of what those closing holes at Madina 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.679 Course three look like and play like, because there have 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.280 been these memorable shots played there. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.199 Absolutely, so we looked at it more simply and thought, well, 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.000 there's three part threes that all look the same, right. 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.480 They just crossed the lake there. Yep, it looks it 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.360 looks kind of like a river in that portion. 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.320 Of the property. It does its narrow people often. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.360 Think it's a river, but the par three is used 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.920 to just kind of play from one side to the other. 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:55.440 That's right. 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.960 And two of them, in particularly thirteen and seventeen, were 0:18:58.000 --> 0:18:59.800 even next to each other. They played in the same 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.000 to they looked like the same hole. They didn't have 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:06.639 a they'd built a short part four at the fifteenth 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.199 that probably hadn't really ticked the box of you know, 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.560 of the great short par fours of the world, and 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.040 it just, you know, I just I think water can 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.960 be a fantastic hazard, but typically it's best when it's 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.080 on a diagonal when you play across, whether it's a 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:24.160 creek or a river or a lake. You know, when 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:26.480 you you know things like cape holes, you know, they're 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.919 interesting because everyone has to deal with the hazard. It 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:31.720 doesn't matter how far you hit it, and you kind 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.199 of have to determine how much of the hazard you 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.280 want to take on. That's you know, it's just a 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.760 very interesting way to set up a hazard, and they 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.280 didn't have that. And the fact that you played directly 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.679 over the water and the greens were detached from the 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.240 water meant that good players never hit it in the water, 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.480 but they were impossible for the average golfer. So I 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.760 guess we looked at the lake and thought, potentially, this 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.520 is an amazing hazard, but it doesn't quite work as 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:56.880 well as it should. The three part three's were all 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:58.640 similar and they didn't have a great short path four, 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:00.639 so that was kind of our starting point. 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:04.360 Okay, Yeah, this is what you're saying about. Hazard orientation 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:09.680 is really interesting because the previous course there was very 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.960 linear or perpendicular, and it's in its relationship with that 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.840 big natural hazard. I guess it's. 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.240 Natural, yes, sort of. Yeah, okay, yeah, I think so. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.760 Even though it at some point it didn't really. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.560 Well I think yeah, I think it was a wetland 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:28.399 and then they did they damn it. 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:29.560 Yeah, that's ry. It was formalized. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:29.920 Kay. 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:31.040 Yeah. 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.280 So these these par threes, just to use them as 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:39.080 an example, would just play straight across it, whereas what 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.560 what you were looking to do was to shift the 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.960 orientation of the shots so that it would run along 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:47.239 a diagonal. 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.359 Yeah, that's try and and and so the we didn't 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:52.399 think there was that much variety with the path threes 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.280 and with the reroute that the new thirteenth hole plays 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.359 alongside the water, so that gave the club something different 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:00.840 as well. So it's a it's a short path three, 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.359 which again they didn't really have. So this is a 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.960 hole that I think it's best played at probably about 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.920 one hundred and forty five yards, so kind of shortish 0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.320 it uses it's got like an infinity green with and 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.359 you can see the water behind, but then if you 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:15.840 miss the green to the right, you're in the water. 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.560 So it's whereas they were always playing across the water, 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:20.600 so we sort of added a different type of hole 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.080 that's usually played into the breeze. So it's kind of 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.520 a fun shot with a nine nine or a wedge. 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.880 And then and then the new seventeenth does play, yeah, 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.920 directly sort of on a diagonal back across the water. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:33.879 Yeah. 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.000 So getting back to the theme of challenging elite players, 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:40.600 I guess diagonal hazards are one way that you can 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:43.280 do that because if it's just a linear hazard, as 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:45.840 long as you have the carry number, you can go 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:46.320 ahead and. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:46.880 Make that carry. 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.400 If you're a really good player, you're not gonna come 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.080 up short necessarily unless it's a really long carry. 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:52.680 Yeah. 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.320 If it's diagonal, then you sort of have to make 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:58.440 a decision. If you hit it in a little more 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:00.840 in one direction than the other, then you might be 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.680 in trouble. If you try to buy it off too much, 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.439 you might be in trouble. So that's one way I 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:08.560 suppose that the new course might be more challenging to 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:10.240 a top level player. 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:10.600 Yeah. 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:12.439 I mean, good players are very good at hitting to 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:14.560 a particular distance, so that's right. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.639 So when they're they're not going to miss that distance 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:17.200 very often. 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:19.600 No, so when you're playing across a perpendicular hazard, they're 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:21.880 unlikely to hit it in it. If it's on the diagonal, 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:24.800 you're testing line and length, so that's right. So they 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:29.639 do have the ability to misjudge, So that. 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.680 That was one thing we did. 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:37.240 I mean, we certainly tried to improve the relationship between 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.399 the playing surfaces and the surrounding hazards as well, you know, 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:45.160 But being the typical Parkland American style course that I mentioned, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.919 there was probably ten yards of rough between the edge 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.480 of a fairway and a fairway bunker, so that a 0:22:51.480 --> 0:22:55.159 lot of the bunkering was somewhat redundant. You know, it 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:57.280 was a very poor shot to hit in the sand. 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.840 Usually you were playing from the rough and green side 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:03.080 bunkers as well. We're a long way off the putting surface. 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.760 So whilst we knew we couldn't take it to the 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:09.480 extent of say the sand belt, where you have putting 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.600 surface to the edge of a bunker, we knew we 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:15.960 could get a lot closer. So you'll see with the 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:18.000 new course the bunkers are really cut up tight to 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.879 the greens. There is more fairway, the fairwyes are wider, 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.080 but there's probably a bit more strategy now in terms 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:25.920 of being on one side. 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:26.560 Of the fairway or the other. 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:33.480 One of the keys, to be honest is firmness. It 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:35.960 doesn't matter how strategic you make a golf course. You 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:38.200 can have all the angles and width in the world, 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.520 but if it's soft, those guys are so good that 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:43.800 they can be out of position even in the rough, 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.240 and they can hit an eight iron onto a green 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:50.040 and stop it if the greens are soft. So firmness 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:54.000 is critical, and you know there's a number of greens 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.200 there that we set up to like the first green 0:23:56.240 --> 0:24:00.880 falls away from play, which really encourages short and using 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.399 the ground game a bit more. But the other important 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:05.639 aspect is all the drainage that's been added in and 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.919 so unless you had a three inch storm the night before, 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.960 being the new superintendent has the ability to really firm 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.680 that place up, and that will be ultimately that will 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:18.440 be the key and firmness combined with all the short 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.760 grass around the greens, plus the bunker ing, plus the 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:24.480 you know, the angles, it's a there's no one thing, 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:26.800 it's those. It's sort of four or five different things 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:32.320 that I think start to achieve that balance between playability 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:35.320 for the average golfer but making it interesting and challenging 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:36.040 for the better player. 0:24:36.640 --> 0:24:40.159 How do you create firmness on a site like Madona's. 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.560 I mean, this is not the Australian sand belt, this 0:24:43.680 --> 0:24:46.639 is this is Chicago. I assume it's kind of heavy clay, 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:51.480 not typically the easiest stuff to drain or to you know, 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:54.000 it's not not the easiest thing to fight the weather 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.399 in Chicago with your surfaces. So how do you go 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:00.560 about creating firmness at a course like this? 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:01.760 Yeah, it's. 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:05.320 I mean it is a heavy sight, but it's got 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.560 quite a thick layer of top soil. They sort of 0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:10.280 look at it and you know, it's good black dirt 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:11.600 will be the comment. 0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:12.720 Not bad. 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:16.119 Yeah, so it's super rocky or anything. No, it's actually 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:20.479 quite nice tops oil. There was no sort of there 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:23.080 were no. I mean, we strive very hard to We 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:26.280 don't particularly like the you know the catch basins close 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:28.480 to close to play, you know where you've got a 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:30.359 big drainage pit, because that. 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:32.240 Would be one way to do it is to build 0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:35.359 these big swales next to the greens, have the greens 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:37.560 run off into those swals and drain down at the 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:40.720 center that's right of the catch basin. But that's sort 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:44.280 of it can start to seem like predictable or kind 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:45.960 of hacky architecture. 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:47.000 Yeah, so that's right. 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:50.040 So if you were only concerned with the turf and 0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:55.120 you didn't care about architecture or aesthetics, if you had 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:56.879 the series of catch basins all the way down the 0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:59.240 fairway and all the way around the green, with quite 0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:02.280 a lot of pitch into those catch basins, you could 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:05.000 create fairly dry surfaces because anytime it rained, the rain 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.600 would hit the surface straight off into a catch bit 0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:11.080 and that's gone. You know, whereas architects we're trying to 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:13.520 do we're trying to minimize the number of catch basins 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:15.160 and put them in the raft so you can't see 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:18.520 them and not have the big exaggerated hollows. So you're 0:26:18.520 --> 0:26:21.919 trying to strike a balance between form and function. 0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:22.560 I guess. 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:26.359 So there are there's a few catch basins in you know, 0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:29.560 in playing surfaces, but they're typically off you know, well 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:33.600 off greens and things. And then on top of that, 0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:35.760 there's also a lot of subsurface strainage around the greens, 0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:37.400 particularly in their approaches to the greens. 0:26:38.400 --> 0:26:41.439 Okay, so you have to be clever about how you're 0:26:41.520 --> 0:26:44.560 draining the surfaces. And that's just one way to do it, 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:47.199 I guess. Another way is just good agronomy. You know, 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:49.679 you need to try and pay attention to the surfaces 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:53.959 and really keep them fresh and you know, not let 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:56.880 them age in certain ways in order to keep them firm. 0:26:57.280 --> 0:26:58.159 Yeah, and that's right. 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:02.000 There's certain management practices. I mean, you could destroy the 0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:03.800 strategy of a golf course if you're a bit heavy 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:06.679 handed with the with the hose. So you know, if 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.399 you were to overwater of course, you know, you're going 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:11.679 to it's going to lead to soft playing services, So 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:14.240 you know, trying to keep it a little bit lean 0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:16.679 and keep it firm and keep it bouncy is critical 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:17.080 as well. 0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:22.640 So then in all of this firmness and the challenges 0:27:22.680 --> 0:27:25.680 that you're trying to create with that, what role these 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:28.680 short short grass play with us? 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:34.480 I think it's a plays an important role. So a 0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:37.040 good example we would use with the membership there was 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:43.280 if you've got an elevated green, we'll say, then you've 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:46.960 got rough up to the edge. Even if the pin's 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:50.680 tucked in the corner of the green. Good players will 0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:54.359 tend not to think twice about shooting for that flag 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:55.959 because they know if they miss it, it's just going 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:58.640 to get caught up in five or six feet either side, 0:27:58.680 --> 0:28:02.359 and it's a relatively simple where Suddenly, if you've got 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:05.600 short grass cut thirty yards down that bank and the 0:28:05.640 --> 0:28:08.719 conditions are firm, it forces them back in the fairway 0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:10.720 to think more about that shot. It puts a little 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:11.959 bit of doubt in their mind because they know if 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:14.200 they miss it, the ball might finish thirty or even 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:16.920 forty yards off the green. Suddenly it's a really tricky 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:20.000 up and down. It's tricky pitch, tricky chip shot. And 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:21.919 the nice thing is for an average golfer, though, if 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:23.480 they missed that shot, they can just pull out a 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:25.520 putter and just kind of whack it up onto the green. 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:27.560 They're not going to make their part, they're going to 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:31.800 make a bowgire a double. But it's a more enjoyable, 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:34.800 more satisfying recovery shot for them than just hacking it 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:37.960 out of three inches of rough. So and we used 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:41.720 that theory in a lot of places at Madina. Really 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:44.760 good example is the first where there's a you know, 0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:47.720 thirty or forty yards of short grass over and to 0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:51.280 the right of an elevated green. So suddenly it's a 0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:52.000 difficult shot. 0:28:52.760 --> 0:28:56.080 Yeah, I mean, the one thing that's gonna bother players 0:28:56.120 --> 0:28:59.360 around the green is not necessarily rough unless the players, 0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:03.480 to you, it sounds like it's putting them farther away 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:06.880 from the hole. If you've met if after a miss 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:09.800 they're simply farther away, they have a longer shot in 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:13.000 they're just going to get that up and down less 0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:15.400 and less often the farther away they get. 0:29:15.720 --> 0:29:16.160 That's right. 0:29:16.200 --> 0:29:18.960 And then if the conditions are fairly firmin bouncy. It 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:22.560 just emphasizes that strategy. And then if you sort of 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:25.000 work backwards onto the tee suddenly, then then it is 0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:28.120 putting more more of an advantage for them being in 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.360 the right position on the faiawaye or the wrong you know, 0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:32.640 panealizing them in the wrong position. So it kind of 0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:35.880 works its way back strategically both in the fairway and 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:36.880 even back on the tee. 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.760 You brought up position in the fairway. Let the record 0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:44.000 show that you brought it up. I want to talk 0:29:44.040 --> 0:29:48.640 about with yeah. Width of fairways is a controversial topic 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:52.520 among those who are interested in tournament golf courses. 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:52.880 YEP. 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:56.840 There are those who say that if a fairway is wide, 0:29:57.080 --> 0:29:59.719 and the fairways that at Medina are wider now than 0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:03.320 they to be, obviously they're quite a narrow before. There 0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:05.680 are those who say, if a fairway is wide, then 0:30:05.680 --> 0:30:07.840 it really doesn't matter what you do around the green. 0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:10.520 Elite players are just going to blast it up the 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:14.520 fairway and they'll take whatever angle they get when they 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:19.360 get there. And so the argument would go, there's not 0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:22.680 much thinking there because they're not thinking about position in 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:25.000 the fairway. Because they don't have to think about position 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:27.440 in the fairway. If you give them a certain width 0:30:27.440 --> 0:30:30.520 of corridor, they're just going to pull driver and look 0:30:30.560 --> 0:30:33.360 at their kind of dispersion zone and just find a 0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:37.040 central point in that dispersion zone and go ahead. 0:30:36.760 --> 0:30:37.239 And rip it. 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:40.680 Not much thought required. Yeah, what would be your response 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:41.000 to that? 0:30:41.400 --> 0:30:44.320 Well, that is true if the conditions are soft. If 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:46.600 the conditions are soft, it is just a free heat. 0:30:46.760 --> 0:30:52.560 But I think there's enough great designs out day that 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:55.480 there are examples of the counterpoints your argument. Someone like 0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:59.200 Augusta is a perfect example a little pond host. I 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:02.120 mean the enth at Augusta that fairways seventy or eighty 0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:05.760 yards wide, and there's you know, a three way advantage 0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:08.440 in hitting down next to the water both shorter shot, 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:12.080 better angle, and flatter eye. And you know every yard 0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:14.480 you play to the rider gets a much more difficult 0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:19.440 shot into that green. So if the architecture isn't there 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:24.840 and the firmness isn't there, that's right. Players will will 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:27.160 will eat up a golf course if it's wide. But 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:29.560 I think if the if the green complex is good 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:32.760 enough and it's in and it's a fairly firm, fast 0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:36.120 golf course, I think it will challenge and it will 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.520 create much more interest because the end of the day, 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:41.880 you can't create strategy on narrow fairways. You know, you 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:45.160 have to give players choices about where they want to 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:49.920 hit to. Ironically, I quite like the fact that the 0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.280 US Open is an arrow golf course because it's just 0:31:52.320 --> 0:31:53.680 a nice point of difference. 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:54.320 With all the other majors. 0:31:54.440 --> 0:31:56.680 But it's just it gets too much, I think when 0:31:56.720 --> 0:31:58.840 every week in, week out on the tour is an 0:31:58.920 --> 0:31:59.640 arrow golf course. 0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.040 Well, you know, one of the reality is when it 0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:06.720 comes to designing courses for great players right now, is 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:11.160 that great players think about course management differently, perhaps than 0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:13.680 than they used to, or at least they're they're more 0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:18.160 likely to have a particular method of approaching course management, 0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:22.800 driven by analytics and data collection and the insights that 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.920 that has provided. So I wonder if as an architect, 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:30.440 you take some of that stuff into account in order 0:32:30.480 --> 0:32:35.520 to counteract or to account for what players are doing 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:37.520 when they think their way through a golf course, when 0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:41.520 they're choosing targets based on a kind of different set 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:44.600 of criteria than they used to, does the architect have 0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:49.480 to do something different in order to keep the course 0:32:49.640 --> 0:32:53.600 interesting and challenging for them. 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:54.960 It's a it's a really good question. 0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:57.720 I mean, we haven't spent a lot of time going 0:32:57.760 --> 0:33:01.200 through you know, shouts to Hull, and we did it 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:05.040 at Madina. We looked through a lot of the scoring averages. 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:07.320 That was one thing we did do which was interesting, 0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:13.760 and just the shot dispersion on each hole. But that's 0:33:13.800 --> 0:33:16.120 probably I would say that's the first time we've really 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.520 taken a deep dive into just how players, you know, 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:23.600 through tournaments had played particular holes in particular shots. 0:33:25.720 --> 0:33:29.200 Yeah, what'd you do with scoring averages? What was the 0:33:29.200 --> 0:33:30.320 intention of looking at. 0:33:30.200 --> 0:33:34.040 That one of them was we wanted to see how 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:36.160 they played those path threes and how they played their 0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:40.720 short puffour so fifteen it was interesting that you know, 0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:42.760 better players typically didn't hit it in the water on 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:44.720 the path threes. The water didn't really have much of 0:33:44.760 --> 0:33:46.480 a role as a hazard, which is kind of what 0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:52.280 we thought. And you know, for me anyway, that I 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:54.320 think the great short puffers of the world put lots 0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:56.280 of different clubs in your hand. You know, there's a 0:33:56.320 --> 0:33:59.240 lot of doubt you see that around the sand belt. 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:01.120 You would have seen it in the last few days 0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:05.880 where there's no single way to play. You know, these holes, 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:07.560 you could play anything from a five eye to a 0:34:07.640 --> 0:34:10.360 driver off the tee, and none of them are the 0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:13.680 right or wrong. You know, choice just depends on you 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:15.520 on the day and the wind and the pin and 0:34:16.040 --> 0:34:19.480 how you feeling. Whereas it was clear that that's not 0:34:19.560 --> 0:34:24.840 how they played the fifteenth hole, so I guess it 0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:30.360 probably just confirmed some of our suspicions I guess about 0:34:30.360 --> 0:34:36.080 some of the holes. 0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:40.440 This episode of Designing Golf is brought to you by 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:44.240 Red Rooster Golf Gloves. Red Rooster Golf is all about 0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:48.279 designing a better golf glove, one that's durable, sized for 0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:52.600 everyone and helps to improve the game. Red Rooster gloves 0:34:52.640 --> 0:34:56.200 are made out of premium, long lasting leather. They're durable 0:34:56.200 --> 0:34:59.120 gloves and that means fewer trips to the pro shop 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:02.520 to buy new glove. Red Rooster gloves fit every hand. 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:06.239 They're thoughtfully designed for all sizes, ensuring a great fit 0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:09.760 for every golfer. 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You can buy one 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:53.400 glove and get one fifty percent off with the code 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:58.479 RRG fifty. This offer excludes limited edition gloves and can't 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.440 be combined with other offers, but if you use the 0:36:01.480 --> 0:36:04.839 code r RG fifty you can buy one and get 0:36:04.840 --> 0:36:09.160 one fifty percent off. Check it out at redroostergolf dot com. 0:36:09.280 --> 0:36:18.000 All right, let's get back to the episode. Tell me 0:36:18.040 --> 0:36:21.839 about your use of out of bounds at Madonna. This 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:23.840 is something that people are going to be curious about. 0:36:24.440 --> 0:36:26.120 The fence hole. Yeah, in particular. 0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:35.520 Yeah, sure, So that end of the property, which I 0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:41.400 guess is the northwestern end, was a prairie originally, so 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:45.319 you kind of got these interesting landscapes at Madonna. You've 0:36:45.320 --> 0:36:47.240 got the holes around the lake, which we talked about. 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:49.480 Then you've got the holes through the middle of the 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:51.799 property where you've got the beautiful old oaks that kind 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:53.719 of frame the holes, and then the top end of 0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:56.839 the property there was originally a prairie, so didn't have 0:36:56.920 --> 0:36:58.799 the features of the rest of the golf course. It 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:04.080 was pretty open and it had a dirt road running around. 0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:07.160 In the thirties, you know, there were no houses. There 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:08.399 was just a simple dirt track. 0:37:09.160 --> 0:37:09.680 And when we. 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:12.320 Looked at the old aerials, it appeared as though the 0:37:12.840 --> 0:37:15.520 sixth hole used the boundary as a bit of a 0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:18.200 strategic hazard, you know, because the hole literally played up 0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:21.719 against it. There were no trees, and I thought, well, 0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:24.640 that's kind of interesting, interesting feature. I'm not sure you 0:37:24.680 --> 0:37:27.239 could ever put that back because there's now houses and 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:31.160 roads and cars and things like that. And then we 0:37:31.239 --> 0:37:33.640 found an old photo that showed the sixth green and 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:36.200 there was quite clearly a fence immediately behind the green. 0:37:36.920 --> 0:37:41.839 I thought that's pretty cool, very interesting, And then we 0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:46.759 were concerned the view on those holes, particularly six and 0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:50.319 the old tenth which is now the seventh, was unattractive 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:53.280 because you were just staring at the road and cars 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:56.520 and an ugly fence, and so in order to improve 0:37:56.560 --> 0:37:59.440 the backdrop, we wanted to shift those holes away from 0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:02.359 the outer bound and the club were really lucky they 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:04.200 had a lot of space, so we moved those holes 0:38:04.600 --> 0:38:07.600 forty yards, which gave us an opportunity to then plant 0:38:07.640 --> 0:38:09.839 out the boundary and to sort of shift your view 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:13.120 line away from the outer bounds. But then the question was, well, 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:16.600 what do we what do we do now? And we 0:38:16.760 --> 0:38:20.280 kind of liked the idea of reintroducing some sort of boundary, 0:38:20.360 --> 0:38:22.560 So that's where the idea of and the fact there 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:25.600 was these old photos and we thought, well we could 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:30.319 kind of reintroduce an outer bounds, albeit it's a much 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:33.680 safer proposition now and with a nicely screened fence line. 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:38.080 So we pitched the idea of a postmail fence and 0:38:39.360 --> 0:38:41.520 it sort of follows all the way down the sixth 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:43.840 hole and the seventh hole and the end. We actually 0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:45.759 continued on the fifth as well, So you have this 0:38:45.880 --> 0:38:49.959 run of holes five, six, seven where the fence line 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:52.239 runs hard up against the edge of the fairway. At 0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:53.960 the sixth that runs hard up against the edge of 0:38:54.000 --> 0:38:57.839 the green. But the fairways are wide, you know, they're 0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:02.520 sixty yards wide, sixty five yards wide, so they kind 0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:05.600 of that there's a huge advantage for being close to 0:39:05.680 --> 0:39:08.319 the fence line, but we give that. We give the 0:39:08.320 --> 0:39:10.239 goal for a lot of space to play away from 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:14.000 the fence, but you kind of at some point on 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:15.839 those holes you have to deal with the fence line, 0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:18.319 particularly on the sixth because the green's hard up against it. 0:39:18.360 --> 0:39:20.240 So if you choose to play away from the fence 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:22.640 with your t shot, the second shot now is really 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:27.120 difficult because you were sort of aiming directly out of bounds. Now, 0:39:27.120 --> 0:39:30.400 we didn't think it was that controversial because we've played 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:32.239 and seen a lot of courses in the UK and 0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:34.080 there are a bunch of examples. 0:39:33.880 --> 0:39:38.160 Royal Liverpool maybe the most famous example on multiple holes 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.600 that that it's not really a boundary line. It's sort 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:44.640 of a boundary line, but the burn sort of comes 0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:45.160 into play. 0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:47.160 And you know, I played the British Amateur there. I 0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:49.120 remember that the first hole there, you know, it's a 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.719 ninety degree it's a long part for I remember hitting 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:52.680 a three im into that. 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:54.720 Green played as the third hole in the Open. 0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:55.560 That's why I believe. 0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:58.640 But it's really fun as a first hole because it's 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.440 it's such a hard t shot right off the bat. 0:40:01.560 --> 0:40:04.080 Absolutely, But then there's lots of other examples, you know, 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:08.720 truon fourteenth hole at Saint George's, a bunch of holes 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:10.759 at the old Course first pressed week. 0:40:11.280 --> 0:40:14.480 Yeah, it's a kind of a traditional and for that sake, 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:17.319 the road hole is a is a version of it. 0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:20.040 And so it's a kind of traditional type of hole 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:23.480 that the boundary hole on a links course. Absolutely, And 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:26.479 as much as everybody else in the world has tried 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:31.040 to emulate links courses in building their own work, in 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:36.160 other places, the boundary hole hasn't been as much imitated 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:40.520 because people look at it and they say, well, that's unfair. Yeah, 0:40:40.600 --> 0:40:43.920 the stroke and distance penalty as a punishment for missing 0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:46.600 the fair way, that's not fair. I don't like that. 0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:47.719 Let's not have that. 0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:50.480 I'm sure there will be some of that reaction to 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:55.759 the use of the boundary at Medina. And yeah, I mean, 0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:58.319 how do you think about that? How do you think 0:40:58.320 --> 0:41:00.480 about the issue of fairness when it when it comes 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:01.120 to a hall like this. 0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:03.600 I like it because it puts even more doubt in 0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:06.839 your mind because the penalty is so severe, right, whereas 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:08.840 if it was water. I think people are going to 0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:11.400 be more inclined to play a little closer to it 0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:13.319 because they know that they can always drop the ball 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:17.360 up near the fairway, you know. So I think I 0:41:17.360 --> 0:41:19.399 think it's I think it works really well. I mean, 0:41:19.600 --> 0:41:22.840 and interestingly, there was a little bit of concern about 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:25.840 it early on, but now that all of the you know, 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:27.560 the long ruffs grown on the other side of the 0:41:27.600 --> 0:41:31.560 fence and the holes have beard it in, the feedback's 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:37.600 been unbelievable. So both from golf's hierarchy to tour players 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:40.360 that have come and played it, to the members, I 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:43.560 think they understand it, and you know, and those fairways 0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:45.680 are really wide, so you you know that it's not 0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:50.520 They've understood that there's a lot of opportunity to play 0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:52.160 away from the fence. You don't have to play next 0:41:52.200 --> 0:41:55.520 to it. But I think they enjoy the challenge. 0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:59.040 Yeah, is there a particular hole at the new Madina 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:03.439 Chorus three that you're specially interested in seeing top level 0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:06.520 players play in high pressure situations? Maybe something that we 0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:07.600 haven't talked about yet. 0:42:09.000 --> 0:42:11.239 I mean, one of the fence holes, the sixth with 0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:15.759 the fence quite close to the green. I'm really looking 0:42:15.760 --> 0:42:17.319 forward to seeing how they play that. 0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:19.400 You could definitely see a ball just kind of roll 0:42:19.840 --> 0:42:22.680 the out of bounds there. Absolutely, that's a very distinct 0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:25.520 possibility in approaching that green if you're coming in from 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:28.400 a tough angle and you don't have total control of 0:42:29.200 --> 0:42:32.359 your ball, yep, it's going to go a bee well now. 0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:32.759 You know. 0:42:32.800 --> 0:42:36.880 And there was some people had sort of suggested that 0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:39.640 maybe we should move the fence ten yards further away, 0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:43.600 you know, And but my argument was that it's no 0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:47.040 different to a you know, suddenly that hazard stops being relevant. 0:42:47.080 --> 0:42:47.239 You know. 0:42:47.239 --> 0:42:49.359 It's no different to imagine you moved a green side 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:51.560 bunker ten yards away from the green, well, it stops 0:42:51.560 --> 0:42:54.120 being hazard, you know. So the whole point of it 0:42:54.200 --> 0:42:56.440 is that it's close to the playing surface. If you 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:58.640 grow five yards of rough or ten yards of rough 0:42:58.640 --> 0:43:01.040 between the hazard and the whether it's the fairway or 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:06.080 the green, it stops being interesting. So fortunately we rode 0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:10.600 through that, probably the other holes the Kpe hole. So sixteen. 0:43:12.239 --> 0:43:16.160 So sixteen was the old seventeenth, the part three, and 0:43:17.200 --> 0:43:19.000 there was a lot of space to the right of 0:43:19.080 --> 0:43:22.520 the seventeenth, and every time we sort of stood on 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:24.680 that tea, our eyes would kind of shift right and 0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:27.160 you would see the water on the diagonal to the 0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:29.120 point where we actually you would look across to the 0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:31.600 fourteenth tes, the original fourteenth t's, and it looked like 0:43:31.600 --> 0:43:34.600 a really interesting green and an interesting short part four. 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:38.759 The ground was quite steep, which we were a little 0:43:38.760 --> 0:43:41.839 bit concerned about, but that whole worked out particularly well, 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:45.280 and that's a good example of everyone in the field 0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:47.200 there has to deal with the water. You just have 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:49.000 to choose how much of it you want to take on. 0:43:50.080 --> 0:43:52.359 Yeah, that's going to be a really fun hole to watch, 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:56.800 partly because it's set in this kind of amphitheater, this 0:43:57.040 --> 0:44:00.239 natural amphitheater at the center of the property with the 0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:03.480 lake there, and I can just imagine the crowds around 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:06.239 it and some of the fun tea shots that are 0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:08.440 going to be played there because there are it's one 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:11.440 of those holes where there's real tension on the tea shot. 0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.560 Is this shot going to get where it needs to go? 0:44:14.640 --> 0:44:16.680 There's going to be some doubt with the ball, with 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:17.239 the ball in the. 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:20.319 Air, absolutely, and it is. You know, there's a bunch 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.640 of different We built five or six different teas because 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:24.839 we wanted people to be tempted to try and drive 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:29.520 the green, So that shot is on for the elite players, absolutely, 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:31.680 so I think it'll be fun to see that. And 0:44:31.960 --> 0:44:33.879 your point about the Amphitheater is a good one too, 0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:36.719 that there's so much action around the lake now, there's 0:44:36.719 --> 0:44:38.680 so many there's kind of four or five holes that 0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:40.360 are all in and around the water there, and the 0:44:40.360 --> 0:44:43.040 way the sand will kind of carry across the water 0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:45.319 and from one side to the other, I think has 0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:48.760 made for a really interesting, you know, finishing stretch of holes. 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:53.799 So my final question, Mike, was it really wise for 0:44:53.880 --> 0:44:58.480 a US club to hire an Australian firm to build 0:44:58.480 --> 0:45:01.520 a course that would host an America and President's Cup. 0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:04.160 It feels like this was an opportunity for you to 0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:07.680 tip the scales in favor of the international team. 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:08.359 Wow. 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:10.200 I just wonder what. 0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:15.040 The thinking was here, hopefully. I mean, ninety eight was 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:18.120 the only time that the Internationals. 0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:18.400 Have ever won skills. 0:45:18.600 --> 0:45:20.439 Maybe it would be good for the skills, it would 0:45:20.480 --> 0:45:25.840 be nice. Look, it was brave for them to country 0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:29.920 of origin aside, you know, to not just go with 0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:34.480 the usual suspects. I would say so, and they so 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:37.480 they did make a brave decision there time will tell 0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:41.280 as successful, but no, they're very pleased with the results, 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:44.400 and you know it's look, it's not that rankings are everything, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:46.920 but it's nice that, you know, rankings have come out 0:45:46.960 --> 0:45:49.520 and shown that it's gone up a staggering number of 0:45:49.920 --> 0:45:53.160 spots and all of that. But yeah, it has been 0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:58.359 discussed numerous occasions that you know, if the internationals do 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:01.640 win this particular President's Cup, what the reaction will be. 0:46:02.120 --> 0:46:03.960 Not going to be able to re enter the country problem? 0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:07.560 All right, thanks for coming on the show man. 0:46:07.760 --> 0:46:08.319 Thanks Ert. 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:19.440 This episode of Designing Golf was produced by PJ Clark. 0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:24.279 Thank you, PJ. If you've been enjoying Designing Golf, then 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:27.040 leave us a rating or review wherever you might be 0:46:27.239 --> 0:46:30.520 listening to us that it's always interesting to hear feedback 0:46:30.640 --> 0:46:34.520 about the show. Also, make sure to check out CLUBTFE. 0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:37.719 Go to the fridagg dot com slash membership to see 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:41.000 what's offered with clubtf But there are all sorts of things. 0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:44.279 You get early access to Frida Egg events, you get 0:46:44.600 --> 0:46:47.080 a lot of content that we do on a weekly basis. 0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:50.600 I just recently wrote a course profile on Bandon Dune's 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:53.240 really went in depth on what I think that course's 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:55.799 strengths and weaknesses are. That's the kind of stuff that 0:46:55.800 --> 0:46:59.320 we do in CLUBTFE and if you've been liking designing golf, 0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:02.400 I can just guarantee that you would love the stuff 0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:05.560 that we do in Club tf Thank you for listening, 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:08.239 and we'll be back again soon with another episode.