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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. But more importantly, how is Coorra doing?

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Speaker 1: Because we haven't had a Cora update in a really

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Speaker 1: long time. What's going on with your dog?

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Speaker 2: Actually? You know, Cora's doing really well. She of course

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Speaker 2: is getting older, she's going to be turning twelve this Easter,

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Speaker 2: and you know, slowing down quite a bit. But you know,

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Speaker 2: she's actually had quite a bit of a quality of

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Speaker 2: life improvement lately. You know, I had posted maybe four

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Speaker 2: months ago on Instagram a picture of Cora down in

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Speaker 2: my man cave, which is in the basement, and just indicated, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is very unusual. She's really struggling to navigate stairs.

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Speaker 2: You know, I thought maybe it was an eyesight problem.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'd have to kind of guide her down

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Speaker 2: and she'd be really tentative to come down the stairs.

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Speaker 2: And it's about fifteen steps. It's not a short, short

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Speaker 2: thing for her at all. Yeah, and then a couple

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Speaker 2: of the people, I think about five different people talked

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Speaker 2: about this, this medication that helps with arthritis pain and

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Speaker 2: I hadn't even thought about that, and took her into

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Speaker 2: the vet. She said Cora was a good candidate. You know,

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Speaker 2: she has some muscle wasting in her legs just from age,

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Speaker 2: but she got she's on these shots now and it's

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Speaker 2: like a new dog in many ways. You know, she's

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Speaker 2: able to get up and down the stairs. She's still

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Speaker 2: a little tentative. I think there is some eyesight issues,

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Speaker 2: but even when she goes out for her walks, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's got a little more pep in her stuff, and

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Speaker 2: that in part maybe because it's you know, we've predominantly

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Speaker 2: been through the colder season out here in Colorado, and

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Speaker 2: she loves the snow. She loves the cold. But you know,

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Speaker 2: right now, things are doing good and so far, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's still cancer free, so everything is going good on

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Speaker 2: Cora front. So you know, for a ninety pounds yellow lab,

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Speaker 2: yet she's not a small lab. You know, she's a

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Speaker 2: big lab. And you know she's you know, up there

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Speaker 2: for the size of dog that she is. But you

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Speaker 2: know she's been well taken care of. And you know,

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Speaker 2: the quality of life I think is as improving as

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Speaker 2: a result of the you know, the social media suggestions

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Speaker 2: that I got.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I end up getting great suggestions from listeners,

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Speaker 1: some not so great. Most of the time, I think

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Speaker 1: they're really helpful. Most of the time. They're really helpful

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Speaker 1: when you have experts out there, and some many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners are so smart, which is great. I love

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Speaker 1: smart listeners and they have all of this expertise. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've had just lists of people say I'm in forensics,

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Speaker 1: or I work with DNA analysis, or I had one

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Speaker 1: person email me which I loved, who said, I'm an

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Speaker 1: expert in like colonial weaponry. If you guys ever want

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Speaker 1: to come out and shoot well, which I think is great, Oh,

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Speaker 1: very cool. So you know, I really I love getting

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Speaker 1: suggestions like that, and so especially something that's going to

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Speaker 1: improve the life of someone we care about so much.

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Speaker 1: Would you think that the bear encounter was the biggest adventure, trauma,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it in Cora's life so

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Speaker 1: far at age twelve, almost, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I would say obviously from our perspective. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she had her side tore open, she got a bite

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Speaker 2: on her tail, she got some sort of maybe a

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Speaker 2: claw that went dug into her forehead and had half surgery,

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Speaker 2: you know. Traumatic for my wife who was with her

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Speaker 2: at the time, for sure, but Cora didn't seem to care.

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Speaker 2: And she still tried to take off after a bear.

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Speaker 2: And when bears come in through our yard, she's barking

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Speaker 2: at him, you know. So that that said, don't think

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Speaker 2: that she's going to be scared of bears. You know,

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Speaker 2: she's still going to go after him. Yeah, which is

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Speaker 2: just it's so weird. We have so many deer, bunny, rabbits, turkeys,

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Speaker 2: you name it. Kora just ignores them. Yeah, but if

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Speaker 2: it's a bear, you know, she turns in to almost

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Speaker 2: a vicious dog.

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Speaker 1: Just your look. Yeah, she's like you, she's after the

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Speaker 1: big prey. That's what she's looking for.

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Speaker 2: I think is the big prey.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole point of this.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of a way to put it, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, Well, I'm glad we had a coorra update,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure we'll get a fish update at some point.

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Speaker 1: We don't have time right now, frankly, for a fish update, Paul,

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Speaker 1: because you really geek out on your aquarium. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: everything is okay with the aquarium as of now.

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Speaker 2: As of now, yeah, you know it's right here to

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Speaker 2: my right, I can almost touch it, and yeah we can.

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Speaker 2: We can talk fish some other time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we have a busy day. So this is going

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Speaker 1: to be a two parter. You know, this is a

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Speaker 1: story in Canada, set in Canada. Love Love, Love Canada.

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Speaker 1: This is a story I think about a complicated family,

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Speaker 1: complicated relationship. But it starts the way I'm always interested

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Speaker 1: in these sorts of stories, starting, which is with a

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Speaker 1: body part found near water. So that isn't that usually

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Speaker 1: the beginning of a pretty decent true crime story, one

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Speaker 1: that we want to really dig into.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've had multiple cases that you know,

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Speaker 2: parts of body have been on the shoreline, so it

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Speaker 2: usually means something bad has happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 1: We are in nineteen forty six Ontario, Canada, and we're

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Speaker 1: in the city of Hamilton, which is on the western

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Speaker 1: end of Lake Ontario. So for sort of a sense

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Speaker 1: of geography, because I don't know much about Canada, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean I've been to Toronto, I've been to Vancouver,

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Speaker 1: I've been to Montreal, and that's it for Canada. But

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Speaker 1: I loved all three of those cities.

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Speaker 2: What about you, Yeah, you know, I've been to Vancouver,

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Speaker 2: and then I flew into Toronto and gave a presentation

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Speaker 2: to some college students there, then drove to Ottawa, okay,

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Speaker 2: you know, and ended up it was like a four

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Speaker 2: hour drive, and so it was first time I've ever

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Speaker 2: experienced sort of the Canadian countryside, you know. And I

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Speaker 2: always enjoy driving and just looking around, so that was

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Speaker 2: really cool. But don't have much experience at all up

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Speaker 2: in Canada.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't either, And I actually had to

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Speaker 1: look up quite a few things, just procedural stuff that

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Speaker 1: I didn't know about. You'll care about it in a

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Speaker 1: little bit, okay, let's get back to Canada. So nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty six, Ontario. We're in Hamilton, which is about forty

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Speaker 1: miles southwest of Toronto fifty five miles northwest of Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: New York. I always forget how close parts of New

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Speaker 1: York and Canada are. In Hamilton, the population is at

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Speaker 1: about one hundred and eighty thousand in the mid nineteen forties.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a pretty big placing.

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Speaker 1: I have very little reference for Canada as far as

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Speaker 1: the size of cities, but it did seem like a

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Speaker 1: pretty good size for in the nineteen forties. So we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this so many times. It's unreal. Kids finding

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Speaker 1: terrible things because kids are kids and they like to

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Speaker 1: get into stuff and mess around. So on October sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: there's a group of kids that are hiking along a trail.

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Speaker 1: This is near an area called Albion Falls, and they

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Speaker 1: stumble upon a male torso. So this is probably my

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Speaker 1: nativity with this, but it's limbless and headless. I would

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Speaker 1: know this. I understood this part, but I guess I

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Speaker 1: didn't also know that the definition of the torso would

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Speaker 1: be the back, the abdomen, and the chest and the

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Speaker 1: pelvis And the reason that this is even a thing

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Speaker 1: is because the torso is dressed in a pair of

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Speaker 1: shorts and an undershirt, which seemed really weird, And at

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Speaker 1: first I thought shorts on a torso, But then you know,

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Speaker 1: Maren said, well pelvis is included with that traumatizing scene

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Speaker 1: for these kids.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, absolutely, you know this is a headless,

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Speaker 2: limbless body, right, so in essence, you know, of course

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Speaker 2: I want to hear how the dismemberment occurred, right, because

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Speaker 2: oftentimes the body is bisected, you know, through the abdominal area,

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Speaker 2: because all you know, the hardest part is just cutting

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Speaker 2: through the spine. But here you've got somebody. Sounds like

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Speaker 2: they're trying to remove the body parts that could lead

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Speaker 2: to identification, the head, the hands. So that's interesting.

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Speaker 1: They're leaving on shorts and an undershirt. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why I found that weird and surprising, but I did.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, I think the question is is did they

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Speaker 2: actually leave those items of clothing on, or did they

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Speaker 2: redress this torso maybe for you know, moving the body

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Speaker 2: around for you know, I don't know if you want

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Speaker 2: to say, if it's just to make it a little

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Speaker 2: bit less bloody, for them. Do you have pictures?

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know you've loved have pictures of the

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Speaker 1: HEADLESSLM mis torso, do not. I have a picture of

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Speaker 1: the area, though, which could be helpful. The police, of

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Speaker 1: course respond, I'm imagining it's cold. It's March in Canada,

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Speaker 1: so that's good news for us. But these are body

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Speaker 1: parts that are found along or near a trail. So

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Speaker 1: let me show you the scene, which is probably going

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Speaker 1: to be the most helpful photo that I have, So

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Speaker 1: hang on so you'll see the really helpful little black

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Speaker 1: arrow pointed to where it's found. And the police essentially

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Speaker 1: say they think that that the killer or somebody was

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Speaker 1: driving along this road and just toss the torso out.

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Speaker 1: It's not buried, it's not really hidden, it's just sort

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Speaker 1: of dumped.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm looking at a picture and this appears

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Speaker 2: to be a picture where the photographer is capturing what

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Speaker 2: appears to be a dirt road that has a relatively

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Speaker 2: steep embankment going off of the far side of the

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Speaker 2: road from where the photographer is standing, and you know,

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Speaker 2: fairly significant number of trees and bushes with no leaves

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Speaker 2: on them, so it's obviously now fall wintertime. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think the determination of whether the torso was pushed

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Speaker 2: out of a moving vehicle or had been pulled out

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Speaker 2: is more you know how the torso was positioned, you know,

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Speaker 2: down this embankment as well as you know this car

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Speaker 2: is moving and the torso is just kind of pushed out,

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Speaker 2: And that's not necessarily an easy thing if you're dealing

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Speaker 2: with just a single offender who's also driving. But if

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Speaker 2: that torso has momentum forward, then of course it's going

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Speaker 2: to tumble some distance if the car has any speed,

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Speaker 2: and so there would probably be a fair amount of

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Speaker 2: abrasion showing this tumbling action. And that's where you know,

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Speaker 2: photos could be helpful. But at this point in time,

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Speaker 2: you know, this looks like a relatively straightforward body dump location.

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Speaker 2: It's a location in which, once the torso has put

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Speaker 2: down the embankment, if it falls far enough down this embankment,

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Speaker 2: then people passing by probably would not pay any attention,

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Speaker 2: not know that it's there.

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Speaker 1: If they are trying to conceal the identity of this man,

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Speaker 1: then why would they just not cut off the head

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Speaker 1: and cut off the hands, Because fingerprinting would have been

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Speaker 1: a thing in forty six. Why not cut off the

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Speaker 1: hands and cut off the head and that's it. Why

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Speaker 1: go to the trouble of this total dismemberment. Would you

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Speaker 1: think at this point.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think there's a couple of reasons.

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Speaker 2: You know, first, if the dismemberment is just to prevent

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Speaker 2: identification or delay identification, I've got a body, an old

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Speaker 2: cold case in which the head and the hand's been

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Speaker 2: cut off, and then the body was weighed down in

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Speaker 2: the Sacramento River delta, but it ended up bobbing. So

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Speaker 2: now we had a headless torso, if you will, bobbing

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Speaker 2: in the waves and was easily found. When you think

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Speaker 2: about identification, of course, people are thinking about the facial features,

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Speaker 2: you know, the fingerprints from the hands. Now does this

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Speaker 2: torso have any identifying tattoos on the upper arms, on

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Speaker 2: the legs, and is there a reason to remove those

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Speaker 2: limbs to prevent the tattoos from being seen or other

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Speaker 2: characteristics that might help somebody identify the body. Oftentimes, you know,

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Speaker 2: the limbs are removed in order to have a smaller

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Speaker 2: package to move around, you know. So there's also that

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Speaker 2: component of dismemberment. But that's where you start to see

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, now the torso itself is bisected

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Speaker 2: in the abdominal area, so now you have smaller packages

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Speaker 2: to be able to package up and distribute, you know,

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Speaker 2: across the countryside. If that's what your plans are.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the story of the woman who either

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Speaker 1: murdered or participated in the murder of a man and

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Speaker 1: carried his torso wrapped in I think what they were

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Speaker 1: describing as like a hat strap, where you would, you know,

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Speaker 1: have a hat box and put straps around. And she

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Speaker 1: had this torso wrapped up in this package and carried

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Speaker 1: it on a train, and people thought it was so odd.

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Speaker 1: And that was the idea of exactly what she said,

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Speaker 1: which is it was easy to transport. And then she

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Speaker 1: did kind of this. She dumped it by our riverbank,

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Speaker 1: I think, is what it was in that case, So

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. I will say, there are some odd

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Speaker 1: identifying things about this torso. So if they were aiming

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Speaker 1: to not be able to have corroborating details between who

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Speaker 1: we find out the victim is versus this torso, I

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Speaker 1: don't think they did a great job. But let me

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Speaker 1: tell you a couple of things first. Okay, so they

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Speaker 1: don't find any other body parts. Okay, so it's just

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Speaker 1: this torso. And they think the torso has been here

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Speaker 1: for about ten days. And as I said, they thought

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Speaker 1: that it was tossed out of a moving car before

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Speaker 1: winding up in this resting spot. Now there's a little

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Speaker 1: list of interesting things. Okay. There are two superficial gunshot

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Speaker 1: wounds on the chest. No bullets, so skimming or whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to call it. They don't know what the

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Speaker 1: size are, but the medical examiner said this did not

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Speaker 1: kill him. They're superficial wounds. But somebody was shooting at

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Speaker 1: the sky, so no casing, no bullets. There are two

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Speaker 1: features that they are going to find helpful and I

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Speaker 1: might need your help on both. One is assist on

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Speaker 1: the torso's posterior. That's like tushi, right. I know that's

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Speaker 1: not the technical term, but if they're saying posterior, it's

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Speaker 1: the backside.

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Speaker 2: I mean it could be the buttocks, it could be

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Speaker 2: the back Okay. But yeah, obviously there's some sort of mass,

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Speaker 2: you know, cysts like mass on the back of this torso.

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Speaker 1: Also something I really know nothing about, which is a

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Speaker 1: undescended testicle. What does that mean? You see, you're smiling.

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Speaker 1: Is this really something you can use in help anything

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Speaker 1: helpful in an investigation?

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Speaker 2: Potentially, because when males are developing, the testes of course

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Speaker 2: developed internally, and then as this male develops, the testes

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Speaker 2: descend down into the scrotal sack, and you can have

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Speaker 2: boys born with undeescended testicles or one undeescended testicle as

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Speaker 2: it sounds like in this case. So it's a physical

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Speaker 2: feature that could potentially be useful to help identify this body.

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Speaker 2: If a loved one comes forward, a spouse, a family

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Speaker 2: member and says, hey, you know our son, my husband,

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Speaker 2: whatever is missing. What are some physical characteristics and outside

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Speaker 2: of size, highweight or whatever, it's like, well, also the

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Speaker 2: undeescended testes, you know, that could be something that they go, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: this is like this torso's matching up with the description

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Speaker 2: of this missing person, and it may be something that

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Speaker 2: could be used, you know, in nineteen forty six put

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Speaker 2: in the newspapers. It's a little bit personal, but you know,

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Speaker 2: if you're trying to figure out who this guy is,

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Speaker 2: that's a feature.

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Speaker 1: They finally put it together who the torso is, and

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Speaker 1: he is a thirty nine year old man. His name

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Speaker 1: is John Dick and he came from Russia to Canada

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Speaker 1: about twenty years earlier, in the nineteen twenties, and he

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Speaker 1: is missing. He's been declared missing for around two weeks

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Speaker 1: ten days, which is how long the medical examiner thought

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Speaker 1: the torso had been there. He's a bus and streetcar

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Speaker 1: driver for the Hamilton Street Railway, which is the city's

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Speaker 1: transport agency. He was last seen March sixth, nineteen forty six,

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Speaker 1: so ten days earlier, but we don't really know where.

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Speaker 1: The reports have varied. Some say that he was as

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Speaker 1: cousin's house, where he was living at the time, even

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Speaker 1: though he's married. Others say that he was eating a

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Speaker 1: meal at the Windsor Hotel in Hamilton. But really the

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Speaker 1: big deal is that he is married, and the police

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Speaker 1: want to talk to his wife, whose name is Evelyn,

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Speaker 1: as soon as possible. He has just been newly married

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Speaker 1: six months earlier. So they don't know very much about

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Speaker 1: him except that he's a laborer and you know, see

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Speaker 1: no record, seems to be a good citizen and now

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Speaker 1: he is this torso And they don't have any other

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Speaker 1: body parts so far, and they don't have a conclusive

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Speaker 1: cause of death.

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Speaker 2: How old did you say?

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Speaker 1: He was thirty nine? So what did you think about

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Speaker 1: that with the dicended testicle?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, who reported him missing?

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Speaker 1: Sounds like his wife, So.

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Speaker 2: I would assume that she's aware that, you know, this

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Speaker 2: is one of his characteristics. And when they find this torso,

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Speaker 2: you know she comes in and reports John missing, you know,

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Speaker 2: this would be something where they'd call her up and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: can you give us some more information about, you know,

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Speaker 2: his physical state.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if she.

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Speaker 2: Mentioned this and they're going, okay, we might be on

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Speaker 2: the right track here that this could be John. But

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Speaker 2: in terms of you know, that physical trait, you know,

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Speaker 2: I would never rely upon something like that as the

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Speaker 2: sole means of identification. It's just a consistent feature. And

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Speaker 2: so now more needs to be done to identify this torso.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it sounds like they're fairly confident. I guess

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Speaker 1: some of the clothing from the torso matches his, and

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Speaker 1: he's been missing, and Evelyn is completely freaking out his

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Speaker 1: wife and they've only been married about six months. I

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Speaker 1: will tell you that they obviously think this is murder,

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Speaker 1: and they think Evelyn had something to do with it,

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Speaker 1: because there's no one right now in his inner circle

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Speaker 1: that they can identify that would be problematic. Ethlen Dick

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Speaker 1: is problematic as a suspect and as a witness. And

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Speaker 1: I will also say that this is going to be

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Speaker 1: a story involves slutshaming, which I hate that phrase, but

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Speaker 1: there's no other way to describe it in this story.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that our edict is to figure

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Speaker 1: out the actual facts in this case, because it is

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Speaker 1: still a mystery here versus you know, what is all

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Speaker 1: the smoke and mirrors and the circumstantial stuff that happens.

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Speaker 1: They are very quickly zeroing in on Evelyn because she

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Speaker 1: has quite a reputation, and we can kind of talk

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Speaker 1: about your experience maybe with that in more modern cases too.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that John was living with his cousin at

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Speaker 2: the time he goes missing, and not with Evelyn. M hm.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like he's estranged in the marriage. Even

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Speaker 2: though they I mean literally been married only six months.

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Speaker 1: They've been having a really hard time almost immediately, they

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Speaker 1: had a hard time, okay, And I can give you

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Speaker 1: some background on her and on them, and you know,

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Speaker 1: normally I would sort of take you through different suspects

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Speaker 1: and different potentials there aren't any other potentials here. It's

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Speaker 1: whether or not. This is a strong case, I think

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Speaker 1: with Evelyn, and there are a lot of people involved.

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Speaker 1: So he's living with a cousin right now because they

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Speaker 1: are having almost immediate problems in their marriage.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely okay. So they obviously after figuring out this torso

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Speaker 2: is John, then they interview Evelyn.

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Speaker 1: Yep, they do. She is upset and frantic and confused

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Speaker 1: about what happened, and the police start digging around and

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out who she is. Because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: take long to figure out that Evelyn has had quite

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Speaker 1: a reputation. She's sort of unframed as a social light

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen forties in a socialite Paul, because she

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Speaker 1: has dated really powerful people in this area, in this

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Speaker 1: part of candidate, powerful men, so that that immediately puts

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Speaker 1: her on their on the police's radar because they start

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Speaker 1: thinking immediately, well, who else could be responsible? She wants

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Speaker 1: to knock this guy off for whatever reason. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's fair yet, We'll have to see.

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Speaker 2: No. And when you say powerful men, I'm assuming politically

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Speaker 2: and or financially powerful.

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Speaker 1: Yep, business politics, you name it. Okay, So the facts

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Speaker 1: are right now John is dead fifteen years older, so

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Speaker 1: her husband's fifteen years older and he is dead. She

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Speaker 1: is upset. She claims to know nothing about this, but

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Speaker 1: they are now really quickly on unraveling who Evelyn Dick is,

390
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Speaker 1: and the police don't like it in Canada, which is

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Speaker 1: fairly conservative.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So Evelyn is roughly twenty four years old, She's

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Speaker 2: been married to John for six months. She's had dating

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Speaker 2: relationships with these powerful men. Yep. Were these relationships all

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Speaker 2: before the marriage or were there some relationships occurring during

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Speaker 2: the marriage?

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes to both of those. Yes, And I mean

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Speaker 1: throughout from the first week when they got married all

399
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Speaker 1: the way back through she's had relationships. So even though

400
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Speaker 1: Evelyn is on their radar, there's a long list of

401
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: suspects as far as this goes, you know, who could

402
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: have targeted him.

403
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and at this point, pretty much you're putting all

404
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 2: the chips in on Evelyn and this pool of men

405
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Speaker 2: that have been in her life for either a while

406
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Speaker 2: or recently.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

408
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Speaker 2: Is there anything about, you know, the victimology of John

409
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,399
Speaker 2: that is separate from this that we need to worry about,

410
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of you know, what I'm trying

411
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Speaker 2: to figure out is the reason John is dead because

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Speaker 2: of something he got involved with versus the marriage to

413
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Speaker 2: Evelyn and whatever is going on there.

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Speaker 1: You are a brilliant man, Pouls, because yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: there's all sorts of intersections of him getting involved in

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Speaker 1: some things he shouldn't be, but that also involved Evelyn.

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Speaker 1: So let me, I'm so cryptic everything I've felt the

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Speaker 1: last five minutes.

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Speaker 2: You always are.

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Speaker 1: I think the last five minutes have been the most

421
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Speaker 1: cryptic I've ever been with you. Let me tell you

422
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Speaker 1: about Evelyn because all of this is important. Her family

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00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: details are important. So she's twenty five and he is

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Speaker 1: thirty nine. She is the only child of two immigrants.

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Speaker 1: So remember John came from Russia. Her parents, Donald and

426
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Speaker 1: Alexandra come from Scotland, and when she was a baby,

427
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: they moved from Beamsville, Ontario, to Hamilton and Donald also

428
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: drove street cars. The dad, her dad, drove street cars

429
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Speaker 1: for the Hamilton Street Railway. And it sounds like that's

430
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: how John and Evelyn met was because Donald the dad

431
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: and John worked at the same place. Does that make

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00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: sense so far?

433
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's like Donald, Evelyn's father, is the one

434
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: that potentially introduced John and Evelyn.

435
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so, according to what Marin found in the

436
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: source material, Evelyn had a tough childhood. It sounds like

437
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: Donald was very temperamental and alcoholic. It sounds like she

438
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: was physically abused by both of her parents, and at

439
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: times Donald and Alexandra, the mother, would live apart, and

440
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: Evelyn often stayed with her mom and Donald, which this

441
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: will become important later on. Was really bad with money,

442
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: and during her childhood the family lived away beyond their means.

443
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: And Donald got this extra income by stealing from his employer.

444
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: So that's the same employer that John works for. Right,

445
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: this is the railway place. The Waterloo Chronicle, which is

446
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: a newspaper, reported that Donald had ripped off the railway

447
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: for hundreds of thousands of dollars in nineteen forty six.

448
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: It's a lot of money by pilfering fair box money

449
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: and tickets over several years. So this is not a

450
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: grab money from the till and run. This is somebody

451
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: who's stealing money for years and years and years. So

452
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: you can imagine that probably John knew about that, and

453
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: that's why I'm saying the story is a little more

454
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: complicated than you know, just a bad marriage. Now you've

455
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: got a father in law who you know has been

456
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: doing some pretty bad things, and it would be very

457
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: difficult to think that John would not know about it.

458
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: We don't know yet.

459
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: Well, I'm wondering if John and Evelyn benefited from Donald's

460
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: theft of the railways.

461
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: Maybe so, you know, it's interesting that she stayed close

462
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: with her dad despite their history. But she's apparently close

463
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: to both of her parents. She lived with them. I

464
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: guess they got back together Alexandra and Donald into her twenties,

465
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: and you know, Evelyn grew into being an attractive woman,

466
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: sometimes described as a socialite. She is also this is

467
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: where we get sexist, boy. Sometimes she's described as an

468
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: escort or a sex worker, and it's mostly because Paul,

469
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean nineteen forty six. It's mostly because she does

470
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: have money and not the job that should be paying

471
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: her that money. I suspect that it is her benefiting

472
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: from her dad. There's zero evidence that she was ever

473
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: a sex worker or an escort, but you know, that

474
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: is one thing is that you know, she is described

475
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: as this woman who lives beyond her means, and nobody

476
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: knows where the money is coming from.

477
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if Dad's stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars

478
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty six money, you know, that's a fair

479
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: amount of health that he could distribute to Evelyn. It

480
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 2: does come down to how does this factor into John's

481
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: homicide though, you know that's going to be the key.

482
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 2: If did John blackmail Donald yet know something to that effect.

483
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: He's estrange from Evelyn at the time of his homicide,

484
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 2: so he's basically saying, I still need money coming from you, Donald,

485
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: or I'm going to tell you know, there could potentially

486
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: be a motive there. I'll just note that at this

487
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: point in time.

488
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so we'll move along here. Evelyn, as she got older, attracted,

489
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: as I've said before, many different kinds of men, and

490
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: she dated a lot of rich and prominent local men.

491
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: She didn't marry any of them. The Globe and Mail,

492
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: which is another newspaper, reported that at the time she

493
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: claimed to have had sexual relations with most of the

494
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: movers and shakers in Hamilton. This is not against the law.

495
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: She can sleep with whoever she wants. And she also

496
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: had a string of out of wedlock pregnancies in her

497
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: early twenties. Now you can see in nineteen forty six Canada,

498
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: why when the police start learning about all of this stuff.

499
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: I mean, this is I know it's one hundred and

500
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: eighty thousand people, but still it wouldn't have taken long

501
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: to figure out her reputation. They zero in on her.

502
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: Now that I've heard about Donald and what he is doing.

503
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 1: Now I'm less concerned about Evelyn, a little bit more

504
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: concerned about Donald. But you know there are intertwined.

505
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: What do we know so far with this type of

506
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: victimology with John? With what you have said so far?

507
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: You know that the big question is is who benefits

508
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,719
Speaker 2: from John being killed? And what is that benefit? You know,

509
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 2: Evelyn sounds like she has no problem attracting men, and

510
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: she can attract men that have far more assets, if

511
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: you will, than what John can provide. You know, why

512
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 2: does Evelyn ultimately marry John? You know what kind of

513
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 2: arrangement was there? Did they truly fall in love? Is

514
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: there some other reason for that man marriage? And Evelyn

515
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: didn't want that marriage, So that's I think a factor.

516
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: And then is there a spurned lover of Evelyn? Which

517
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: sounds like there very possibly could be, and that spurned

518
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 2: lover decided to take John out, and then of course

519
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: all the financial aspects that sounds like this family is

520
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: involved with on a criminal level.

521
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: I'm not sure John Dick knew what he was getting

522
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: into when he married Evelyn and into the family, which

523
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: sounds volatile to say the least. Let me tell you

524
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: a little bit about her background with kids, which is

525
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: also important. So in nineteen forty two, she was twenty

526
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: one and she gave birth to a daughter named Heather.

527
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: Less than a year later, she gave birth to a

528
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: stillborn little girl. About a year and a half later,

529
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: she had another child, whom she named Peter, a little boy.

530
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: He was healthy. We don't know anything about these fathers.

531
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: She gave Peter up for adoption to an organization called

532
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: the Children's Aid Society when he was about ten days old.

533
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: So all of this is to say, you know, I

534
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: had mentioned that before this this would be something that

535
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: her parents or would tell the police, or you know,

536
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: people would say, this is part of her reputation. She's

537
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: given birth, she hasn't been married. John's her first marriage.

538
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: So this is all stuff that builds into I think

539
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: what'll eventually be the slutshaming part. Of this, it's all

540
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: sort of coming together as this is a family, well

541
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: at least with Evelyn, this is a family that's troubled.

542
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: And now you know, John is dead. None of the

543
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: men involved seem right now to be coming into play,

544
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: any of the fathers of these kids. But it sounds

545
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: like they're all different, you know, fathers. Let's see. Now,

546
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: let's get to when she marries John. It's presumably through

547
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: her father's work, as I said, with the transportation, with

548
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 1: the railway agency. They meet in summer of nineteen forty five.

549
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: He is killed in early March of nineteen forty six.

550
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: Who talk about whirlwind. So they meet in the summer

551
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: of forty five. First lie. She says to John that

552
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: she was widowed after her husband was killed at war,

553
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: and that was a lie. So first lie. But so far,

554
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: that's all I've been able to find on Evelyn. They

555
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: were engaged within weeks of meeting, and then married just

556
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: a couple of months after that in October, and then

557
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: he's dead in March. So this was very very quick.

558
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: He does not have any money, he really doesn't, and

559
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: it is you're right, a big question mark about why

560
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: this guy when she probably could have married somebody who

561
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: was middle class versus maybe more working class. And so

562
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: one of the things I think the speculation is that

563
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: maybe John sold himself as having more money than he

564
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: did because this was so WorldWind I know, Donald was

565
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: unhappy about this. Her dad did not want this marriage

566
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: to happen, and that's why I'm saying it was unlikely

567
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: that he was the one who introduced the two of them.

568
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: He was very unhappy that they got married. I'm assuming

569
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: that he wanted her to marry one of these rich

570
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: guys that she was dating.

571
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Donald's perspective is John, you know, he's got

572
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: eyes and ears around the job, you know. And maybe

573
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: Donald is trying to operate with this financial theft and

574
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: doesn't need a family member paying attention to him. So

575
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 2: there's I can see where Donald is not liking this

576
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: relationship just from that perspective, and whether or not Donald

577
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: was wanting his daughter to actually, you know, marry wealthy

578
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: or you know, marry well, you know, that's that could

579
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: be a factor. But Evelyn ultimately is one that has

580
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: to be making the decision to marry John, and so

581
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: I wonder considering who else she has been in relationships

582
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: with It still comes down to why John. And maybe

583
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: she saw John as a bit of a patsy, somebody

584
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: that she could manipulate for whatever reason, and decided to

585
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: take advantage of that. And whether or not that occurred,

586
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: who knows, But that's something I'm curious about. That relationship

587
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: seems odd considering everything surrounding Evelyn during you know, the

588
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: years leading up to the marriage.

589
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about odd. Odd is that she made

590
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: the down payment on their house. She's the only one

591
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: on the deed to this house. That could not have

592
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: made John feel very good. Or maybe he thought, kaching,

593
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: I found a woman who has more money than I

594
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: do at dad's money. Yeah, you know, I don't know

595
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: what he was thinking, but that was a pretty unusual arrangement.

596
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: But she is the only one on the deed, which,

597
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: because we're talking about a true crime case, is important.

598
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, it sounds from Evelyn's perspective. You know, any

599
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: time you have let's say this, these deeds with property,

600
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: you know, typically you hold on to that property for

601
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 2: a period of time, and if it's a married couple,

602
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: you usually both people are on that deed. The fact

603
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: that in nineteen forty six, a woman is the sole

604
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: owner of that property even though she's married. That just

605
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 2: speaks that from whatever perspective she had, there was a

606
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: lack of permanence with the marriage to John, and she

607
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 2: was ensuring that, you know, this property would be hers

608
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: after the marriage. You know, of course, different states have

609
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: different community property aspects, you know, in divorce scenarios. But

610
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: you know, right now this we're talking Canada, right, So

611
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: I don't even know how that would work up there.

612
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: She must have figured out his money situation before they

613
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: got married. I mean, I can't even imagine. Maybe she

614
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: really loved him. I don't know. Obviously, was smart of

615
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: her putting the money down and making payments I presume

616
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 1: from her dad. She's not working. We don't know where

617
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: she's getting the money from. I'm not buying sex worker

618
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: stuff just yet. So now let's talk about some big

619
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: red flags. Their marriage immediately fell apart, so she would

620
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: later say that within days of her wedding she was

621
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: I mean, to Evelyn's credit, she's very open about this stuff.

622
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: Within days of their wedding, she had already cheated on

623
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: him with this guy who will be important later on.

624
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: He's twenty seven years old and his name is Bill Bohazik,

625
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: so closer to her age, but still she reportedly she

626
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: admits to sleeping with more men in the following weeks

627
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: of their marriage, and after just three months, the couple

628
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: separated and John moved out because it was her house

629
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: and he moves in with his cousin. And despite the separation,

630
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: he really wants her back. He loves her. He doesn't

631
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: want to get a divorce. He calls Evelyn's dad, Donald

632
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: and says, please get her to come back to me.

633
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: You know, I'm good for her. But Donald basically says,

634
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: go kick Rocks. I have zero interesting you being my

635
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: son in law anymore. You're not good enough for her anyway,

636
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 1: and that's it. John is getting nowhere in getting Evelyn back.

637
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: So she has the house, you know, because it's in

638
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: her name, and he is out in the cold on

639
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: his cousin's couch.

640
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: It sounds like, well, it just it just speaks to

641
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, Evelyn is not changing her lifestyle even though

642
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: she's entering into a marriage with John. I mean, considering

643
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: she's with Bill, you know, a couple of days after

644
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: the marriage, which would generally be you know, at least

645
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 2: in this day and age during the honeymoon period, right, Yeah,

646
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: and so this really calls into question in my mind

647
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: as to well, why did Evelyn even bother marrying John?

648
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 2: How does it benefit Evelyn to be married to this man?

649
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: And so I start questioning Evelyn's motives for this marriage,

650
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: you know, and part of maybe this spousal relationship the

651
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: legal aspect of being a spouse. And again we're talking Canada,

652
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 2: so I have no idea, but I'm looking at it

653
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 2: from a perspective, well what kicks in that benefits Evelyn

654
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: when this marriage goes away and John is killed? And

655
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: you know, number one thing that comes into mind is, well,

656
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 2: did she take out a life insurance policy on him?

657
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: There's no evidence of that, no evidence of that kind

658
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: of financial gain. We don't see that. Okay, that being said, Paul,

659
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: I don't know how you work for something like a

660
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: railway and not have some kind of There must have

661
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: been some kind of financial benefit for her.

662
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: I don't know what, but potentially, yeah, because you could

663
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: see where you know, John is thirty nine. Do we

664
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: know how long he was working for the railway? This

665
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: HSR was it?

666
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I think if this was a long

667
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: term thing, this was not an immediate I think this

668
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: has been a long time.

669
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: So yes, he potentially has some some sort of long

670
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: term benefits that would be passed to his surviving spouse,

671
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: you know, And so there could be some sort of

672
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 2: gain on Evelyn's part. But then she could pretend, actually,

673
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: I've been rewarded financially by getting involved with some of

674
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: these other wealthier men than getting involved with John.

675
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, now let's get to another one of Evelyn's

676
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: really big mistakes. Her big mistake was trusting John to

677
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: keep his mouth shut about a family secret. So when

678
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: Donald says, bug off, I don't want you with my

679
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: daughter anyway, John says, your daughter told me about what

680
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: you've been doing, that you've been stealing money, and paul

681
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: I looked it up. The amount was probably in the

682
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: one and a half to two million dollar range these days.

683
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 1: That's a lot of money over a few years that

684
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: he's been stealing. He says, I know all about it.

685
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: Your daughter told me all about it, and basically said,

686
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: I'll expose this secret if you keep being a jerk

687
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: to me, And in response, Donald not surprisingly said I'm

688
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: going to kill you. I'll kill you. So John goes

689
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 1: to the police. Oh, and says this guy threatened me. Now,

690
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's he has gone to the

691
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: police and said this is what happened, and it sort

692
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 1: of exposed this. I don't know how how quickly. I

693
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: don't know the timeframe, like if they said if he

694
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: went to the police and exposed the whole scheme, or

695
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: if he just said, my father in law said I'm

696
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: going to kill you. I don't know which one. I

697
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: know that Donald was not under arrest for stealing money

698
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: at the time of this torso being discovered, so if

699
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: they were investigating, they were at the beginning stages of it.

700
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 1: I feel like he just said he threatened me. I

701
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: don't think he exposed anything, but he reported it.

702
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 2: Well obviously you've been holding back on me. Once again,

703
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: you're welcome. And that was one of the you know,

704
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: one of the early theories that I just kind of,

705
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: you know, noodled on. Now at this moment in time,

706
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 2: I think, you know, putting you know, myself in John's mind.

707
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 2: You know, he is he's been benefit from Donald's left

708
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: of this money, and it may be because of the

709
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: pass through from Evelyn and who knows if John was

710
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: getting any you know, hand me downs front directly from Donald,

711
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 2: and so on one hand, you know, you could see

712
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: where he recognizes that he has leverage against Donald, you know,

713
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: stop treating me poorly, or I'm going to expose this.

714
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, if he exposes it, then

715
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: he loses out of any of the financial benefits that

716
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: he's been getting as a result of the marriage to Evelyn.

717
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: But when Donald threatens him, I'm going to kill you,

718
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: you know, now John is worried. So he goes to

719
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: law enforcement with that perspective just to get Donald to

720
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: back off of that threat but still maintain that desirable

721
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: quality of life through the financial means that Evelyn can provide.

722
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: So I can see where Donald would have have kind

723
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 2: of walked that line a little bit.

724
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, as I said, I don't know what he exposed

725
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: to Hamilton police, but Donald was not under arrest at

726
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: the time. So let's go back to the Torso kind

727
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: of back to the beginning. So we're back to mid

728
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: March nineteen forty six. We know now that the Torso

729
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: is John Dick, and they start wondering about alibis. They

730
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: want to know where everybody was, so they start looking

731
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 1: into Evelyn's whereabouts ahead of her husband's disappearance. They learned

732
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: that the day that he was last seen alive, which

733
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: was March sixth, that Evelyn had borrowed a nineteen thirty

734
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: eight packard from the owner of a local auto garage

735
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: kind of a rental car agency and rudimentary one. This

736
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: was something that she did often, So she borrows this car.

737
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: She returns at the next morning at eight am. So

738
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 1: this is when we start getting into evidence. Whether or

739
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: not you think this is important. I mean, you'll think

740
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: this is important, but we really want to see if

741
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: this absolutely ties Evelyn to this. They search the car,

742
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: they find the car, They search the car. There are

743
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: numerous blood stains which are determined to be Type OH,

744
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 1: which is John's type. So of course they're doing blood typing.

745
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 1: But nothing else is common or not common or.

746
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: What is that? No, it's very common, Okay, so it's

747
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 2: not helpful. Really. Yeah. Basically, Type A TYPEO are the

748
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: two most common blood types by and then ultimately AB

749
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: are rare. So if you get type A type OH,

750
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, because I used to do this ABO testing,

751
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: it really does not limit the population that you can

752
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: include or exclude. So the fact that it's consistent is

753
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: important with John's blood type, but at this point you

754
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: can't say with any level of certainty it is in

755
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: fact John's blood.

756
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: Okay, the blood is mostly concentrated on the front seat,

757
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: but there are also stains on a necktie and a

758
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: sweater that have been left behind that are John's.

759
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: This is so sloppy. This is sloppy.

760
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 1: I mean it really is. If she's the one responsible,

761
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: it is. And it gets worse because she returns the

762
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 1: packer with the front seat's slipcover missing, and a blanket

763
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: had also been laid out on the seat and that's

764
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: also gone. And Evelyn had basically said the blood on

765
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: the seats were from her daughter, who had cut her face,

766
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: so she obviously gets to see her daughter and was

767
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: rushed to the hospital in the car. But this was

768
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: of course not true. So I don't care if it's

769
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: Evelyn or Donald or Alexandra the mother. Somebody does not

770
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: know what they're doing here, because this is very sloppy.

771
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: You're right, yeah, no, this is a very unsophisticated, unorganized

772
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: on one part. You know, when you start evaluating offenders

773
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: and their actions, you know you have to take into

774
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: account that most offenders have never killed before, and so

775
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 2: this is the first time. It's not like there's a

776
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: you know, a school that you can go to and

777
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: learn how to commit a homicide and get away with it.

778
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: You know, you might take time to think about it,

779
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: but the dynamics of what happens in the real world

780
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: when you try to commit these crimes often is the

781
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: undoing for the offender and gets these offenders caught. I'm

782
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: going to assume this necktie and bloody shirt that we're

783
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 2: in this packard probably matches items from John, you know,

784
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 2: to leave those behind and turn the car back to

785
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: the this I forget what you called it, but this.

786
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: Auto autobody shop.

787
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, with people knowing that you're the one that borrowed

788
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: that car to begin with. You know, it's just okay,

789
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: there's a lack of forethought going on there in terms of, well,

790
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: how can law enforcement backtrack utilizing the evidence as well

791
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 2: as the investigative leads. So I can see where now, yes,

792
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: Evelyn becomes a prime suspect in John's homicide as a

793
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 2: result of this, Now she the soul person doing it

794
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: or there are others. I think that's the big.

795
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: Question that is the big question. So a couple of

796
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: other key things that the neighbors were watching her in

797
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: awe as that night, she is desperately trying to squeeze

798
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 1: this very large car in their very small garage around

799
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: five o'clock or five thirty, so you know, I mean,

800
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: she's trying to obviously get the car in the garage

801
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 1: so she can clean it. Sounds like she actually got

802
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: it in. When investigators get a warrant, I presume, and

803
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: they go into her house, they find blood stained women's

804
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: rain boots, as well as that missing blanket covered in

805
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: blood that the auto shop owns, and it's cleaned and folded.

806
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: Now this is very damning, most damningly, I would say,

807
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: bone and teeth fragments are found in coal ashes that

808
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: have been spread outside the garage door just behind the house.

809
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: Eventually they say that these are John's incinerated remains. And

810
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: now this looks super bad for Evelyn and of course

811
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: for John. And you're right, now this turns into Evelyn

812
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: clearly is involved. We don't know to what extent, But

813
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: the big question is whether or not the mother and

814
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: the father, or boyfriends or lovers or businessmen or politicians

815
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: are also involved with this. Did she need help?

816
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: Well, she most certainly could have pulled this off by herself.

817
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: Poorly, very poorly, poorly.

818
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: Very poorly, for sure. No. But I think back to

819
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 2: the injuries on John. You've got two bullet grayses on

820
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: his torso, his head has been cut off. The bullet

821
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: grass as the pathologist said, they weren't fatal, and they

822
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: bullet grazes aren't. John likely was shot in the head

823
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 2: and then he was decapitated. And with the teeth fragments

824
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 2: in these ashes, it looks like in essence, you know,

825
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 2: at least his head and potentially his arms and legs

826
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 2: were essentially cremated. You know, in this this location, could

827
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: Evelyn have shot John in the head. Absolutely, And now

828
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: she's just having to manipulate his body, cremate the smaller

829
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: body parts, get rid of the torso. Getting rid of

830
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: the torso is not easy, you know. That's I don't

831
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: know how big John is, but I'm just going to say,

832
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: let's say he's an average size mail. You know, even

833
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: with his arms and legs and head missing, you know

834
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: that torso is going to be weighing one hundred and

835
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: twenty one hundred and forty pounds, if not more. The authorities,

836
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: the investigators say it look like his torso had been

837
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 2: pushed out of a moving car. I think that's hard

838
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: for any driver to do, you know, so that would

839
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: possibly suggest minimally a second person present. Then I'm speculating

840
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 2: on that at this point. But right now it's like, okay,

841
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 2: so where are we going from here? Evelyn is suspect

842
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 2: number one.

843
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: Here's where we're going from Paul. The police want, of course,

844
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,399
Speaker 1: a really thorough search, so they want to find more

845
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: signs of John in the house. They climb the stairs

846
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: and this is John and Evelyn's house, and they locate

847
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: a suitcase. They're hoping to find more of his body parts,

848
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 1: like his head or something, you know, his teeth that

849
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: are out there. Like they're just looking for more evidence.

850
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: They find a suitcase. They open up the suitcase. When

851
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: I read this, I thought they were going to say

852
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: they found his legs. They did not. They found a

853
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 1: body and it was not John's body. It's a totally

854
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 1: different person. And I am not going to talk to

855
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: you about this for another week or so, so don't

856
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: ask any questions. But this woman has a person in

857
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: a suitcase in the attic of the home she shared

858
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: with the husband, who she clearly was involved in disposing of.

859
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, Evelyn is a dangerous woman.

860
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: She seems to be, and we'll learn a lot more

861
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: about that next week.

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00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 2: All right, Well, you've got me on the edge once again.

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00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: I like to keep you there. That's the point, to

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00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: keep you on the edge. Okay, I'll see you next week,

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00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: and I promise I'll have a conclusion for you.

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00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 2: All right, looking forward to it again. Thanks Lockiate.

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00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

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00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

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00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

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00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

872
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

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00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 1: ary Bones Pod.

877
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

878
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to Decode the

879
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 2: Criminal Mind is available now

880
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Masked, My life solving America's

881
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.