WEBVTT - Beyond Green Washing, Now There's Diversity Washing 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:06.840 Tim Stanevik. We're here every day bringing you the latest 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:11.000 news from the world's of business and finance, clus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.040 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors, 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.040 not to mention our journalists and analyst in more than 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.960 one and twenty countries. You can download Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.880 on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You can also 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.000 listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern Time 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.200 on Bloomberg Radio or stream us live on YouTube and 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:33.320 Bloomberg dot com. Diversity washing It's apparently a thing. It 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.080 has to do with CEOs talking up diversity and how 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.040 they benefit ultimately the most. And this story is in 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.320 the upcoming new issue of Bloomberg Business Week. It's out 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.600 on newstands today, It's online at Bloomberg dot com slash 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.040 business Week. It's also on the Bloomberg terminal. Let's get 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.280 to it with Bloomberg News Managing Diversity reporter Jeff Green, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.040 who joins us on the phone from Michigan. I gotta 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.239 tell you, Jeff, I I've heard of greenwashing, but I 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:56.160 had not heard of diversity washing until reading your story today, 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:58.880 So so breakdown what it is and how it's defined. Yeah, 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.360 it's so pretty cool. Ever, work by John Larker at 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.600 i mean, David Larker at Stanford and some other folks. 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.800 They took what people have been saying in regulatory filings 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.880 about their diversity efforts and they put that together with 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:13.160 what they're actually doing in terms of the diversity of 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.319 their company. Or they're like, are they getting a lot 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:17.200 of fines from the e E O C for doing 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.559 bad stuff? And they kind of picked out the people 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.000 who had the biggest disconnect between what they were bragging 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.399 about and what they were actually doing, and they called 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.319 that diversity watching. And it turns out it works. In 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.360 other words, what does that mean? It works well? The 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.680 people who talked it up a lot, even if they 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.160 weren't doing much, tended to be get higher E s 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.800 G scores than the people who were kind of speaking 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.720 in line with what they're really doing. And then those 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.440 E s G scores allowed the same companies to then 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.480 get picked more often than the others to be in 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:50.120 socially responsible investment funds. So you know, at this point, 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.760 until somebody can actually see what you're saying more clearly, 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.400 it's it's a pretty good tactic. Well so okay, so 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.120 maybe attracting and investors, but it also helps boost their 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.320 compensation as well. Right, you guys know this as well. Yeah, 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:09.239 there's a separate study from Harvard where yeah, by adding 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:13.480 in compensation to the CEO pay you um as a factor, 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.480 they get a bonus. But you can't as an investor 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.720 really tell what that means. For the same reasons, they 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.200 can get people who invest in them even if they're 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.880 not really doing much in terms of diversity. So this 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.720 is stuff that you track, uh, in your in your role, Jeff, 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:30.959 and you know, you guys have done some great work 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.200 in terms of tracking numbers when it comes to diversity. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.480 When it comes to what companies are actually doing, what 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.200 do companies talk about when they say they're doing this 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.520 stuff versus what they're actually doing? Like, you know, the 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:43.400 proof is obviously in the data and it's in the numbers, 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.880 But what are companies saying versus what they're doing? Well, 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:47.680 they is use a lot of the of the fancy 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:49.600 words that everyone wants to hear about. You know, we're 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.480 going to do more to make our leadership more diverse. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.200 We're gonna try to retain and hire more diverse workforce. 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.600 Is it always about what we're going to try to do? Like, 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.840 what we're trying to do is what we're doing, if 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:02.480 you know? I mean it's the problem is there's no 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:04.640 way to know for sure. I mean, there is no 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.640 universal requirement that companies publicly report what they're doing in diversity, 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.120 so they can pick whatever they want, in whatever format 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.040 they want, in any way they want. And that is 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.720 the problem. You know, this is I do feel like, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:17.560 can we say it a lot, Jeff is? It does 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.240 feel like E s G is going through a reckoning 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.600 um And you know, Tim and I talked about it's 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.840 not going to matter until you really have metrics that 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.320 you can apply to company to company to company, and 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:30.280 then when a company reports their quarterly that's part of 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:34.960 the assessment and they get rewarded or penalized, you know, 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.040 if they don't meet those E s G metrics. But 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.440 I feel like we have a ways to go. Where 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.320 are where are regulators on this? How How does the 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.520 SEC if that's the body that should be in control 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:48.960 of it, how are they moving forward to figure it out? 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.360 There really hasn't been a like a concerted effort to 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.160 get at this. I mean, to be honest, we could 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.960 fix this tomorrow. Every company puts out of what they 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.600 call an EO one form every year shows the gender 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.400 and rache you breakdown of their entire company around like 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.200 uh nine or ten classes of workers. They have to 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.080 do it every year. They do it, but it's private 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:09.960 and they don't have to release it. And maybe a 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.440 couple of hundred companies are, but not you know, tens 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:15.440 of thousands. So if everyone just said, here's our EO one, 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.760 we could really start to see company to company what's 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.160 going on. But companies are uncomfortable with it because well, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.080 they say that they're outdated and they don't capture things correctly, 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.800 but also they tend to make them look bad. Jeff. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.040 For someone who does this day in and day out 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.520 and knows the research, knows what's going on. I mean, 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.120 how difficult though, is it in terms of reporting and 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.160 to kind of call a company out. Yeah, I mean 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.600 you gotta kind of you gotta basically they gotta call 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.480 themselves out. To be honest, it's it's really difficult unless 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.880 you got a whistleblower to know for sure what's going 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.440 on and occasionally. You know, ironically, the companies that are 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.400 most open are the ones we can call out. So 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.160 the companies that are actually trying to play by the 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.279 rules are the ones most likely to get burned by this. 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.560 And that's kind of I guess the price they pay 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.560 because they say, well, we're trying to set the set 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.080 the tone, you know, to get other companies to follow. 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.480 But most of the time, what it means is they're 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:06.479 going to be the ones out front getting there. You know, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.400 the whack of mole is going to get them first. 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.440 Isn't it a little concerning that this is the results 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.279 that we see from the study, and now it sort 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:14.440 of gives companies an idea. Okay, wait a second, if 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.599 I just keep doing this but not actually making any change, 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.440 then it will continue to benefit me. Yeah, I think 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.240 they've already been doing it. I don't think. But really, 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:23.839 I don't think anyone cannot talk about this on their calls. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.719 So it's it's always going to be a question of 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.039 are they actually doing anything? And we are kind of 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.560 in a time when employees will notice. So you can 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.200 look around, you can look around your workspace and see 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.640 whether it's working or not. So This isn't something that's 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.839 impossible for people to know. It's just as the pressure 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.840 grows for companies to disclose, there's more information available. It's 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.760 just not apples to apples, So you really can't compare 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.520 across the industry, Like is this good or is this bad? 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.719 I have no idea. Where is the ethics though? And 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.320 all of this? Like I've been thinking about if I'm 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.400 heading a company and I'm saying I'm doing X, Y Z, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:56.560 and then I kind of know it's just a lot 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.320 of fluff and talk. Um. I feel like coming off 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.400 the pandemic, I feel like coming off of the murder 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.040 of George Floyd, like we were having some fairly honest 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.600 conversations with leaders and maybe they felt like they were 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.400 more comfortable to do so, but about diversity and some 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.120 really important issues. Um, and I really felt like that 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.080 there was a ce change. Uh. Now I'm not so sure. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:20.080 So where's the you know, the consciousness of wait a minute, 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:21.599 if I say I'm doing it, I need to be 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.159 doing it. Well. I mean, I think the sort of 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.640 the issue here is this is marketing. I mean we've 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.400 actually done stories where we looked at it and the 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.600 very first sort of area where you see this come 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.560 in is people with a marketing background, not people with 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.040 the science background. We wrote some stories about this botus. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.720 It may be shifting, but by and large, this is 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.480 marketing and it's just like any you know, how many 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:43.800 commercials do you watch and go, oh, that was very honest. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.800 You know, buy our beer. It tastes bad. But you know, 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:51.000 I've been called naive before. Jeff, I get where you're going. Hey, Jeff, 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.000 what does this say about s G? Because that's that's 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.040 a big part of the conversation that we've been having 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.520 in recent months. And I think it's come to the 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:04.080 four because really, you know, in a down market you 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.200 start to see kind of a lot of different and 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.120 hard truths. Um, what does this say about E s 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:11.960 G and the relationship that E s G has with 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:14.720 what what companies say about D E I. I mean, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.760 it's well past time that people start to have some 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.320 real conversations about this. We're asking people to change like 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.120 the entire economy of the world based on some assumptions 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.040 and asking them to do a whole lot of stuff. 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.480 And up until a few years ago, it was just 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:29.840 puppies and rainbows, I mean, which is yeah, we want 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:31.840 to save the planet, will do whatever it takes. And 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.280 now we're starting to actually decide we need we're doing 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:36.680 those things, we're setting goals, and I think it's it's 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:38.440 a good time to have people say, ay, are what 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:40.440 are you actually doing? And be is that really going 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.520 to result in what you say it's going to result in? 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.720 And and what is the trade off? And having like 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.600 real conversations. This is you know, like I said, it's marketing, 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.760 but it needs to be science. So and we're not 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:51.720 there yet. We're not even close to that yet. Hey, 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:53.880 definitely thing I do wonder And this is another thing 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:55.480 to me I talk about. You know, when the market's 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.680 doing really well, it's easy for people to be gung 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.240 ho about E S G initiatives. Are you know, companies 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.480 coming out and saying we're going to do these diversity 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:05.880 initiatives and so on and so forth. But I feel 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.920 like when recessions come or economic slowdown, everybody pulls back. 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.360 Are we seeing that kind of um momentum happen again? 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.000 Are people are understanding wait a minute, we gotta say 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.400 we're going to do better and actually do better well 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.760 until that employment unemployment rate gets higher. I think it's 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.800 difficult for companies to make those kind of decisions. And also, 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.880 I mean it's it's the kind of thing where you 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.000 you know, again you need to hire people and people 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.760 are that it's really hard to kind of stop at 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.440 that level of like the only risk I would say 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.600 the biggest risk is the first in, first out. Companies 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.319 tend to be hiring more diverse now than they used 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.400 to be. So in theory, if you're if those ten 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.400 thousand people leaving, you know what Microsoft are from the 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.000 first you know, the group that's most recently in, then yeah, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:51.839 you're gonna see a dent. And a lot of stuff 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.640 would happened at Twitter. You know, we wrote that like 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:54.920 we think that could see a dent. So it's a 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.160 kind of question of you know, who are you cutting 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:02.160 loose into recession? And does this worker shortage actually go away? 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.120 It seems like we're still missing a couple of million 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.400 workers that we need to make this um you know, 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.880 put the power back in the hands of employers thirty seconds, Jeff, 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.280 what needs to happen in order for permanent change to 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.440 to actually take place at these companies? Show us the numbers, 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.080 I mean, just show me real numbers that I can 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.079 compare across the industry, across the country, across everything else, 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.680 and then we'll know it's there. You have it, you 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.280 already collected, Just show it right, transparency right. It would 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.920 change things dramatically. Also would be great for Jeff's job. 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.520 Get those get those numbers, just like please please, need 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.160 little selfish, but it's still what we want to see it. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.280 We all want to see it to Jeff selfish for 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.080 a good mission. Jeff Green, Thank you, Bloomberg News Managing 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.880 Diversity reporter Jeff Green. Joining us via zoom from Michigan. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.160 These sees Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:52.680 Stentovic on Bloomberg Radio. We do want to get to 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.520 another story that's in the new issue of Bloomberg business Week. 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.600 It's also the Bloomberg Big Take. It's about the Foe 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.679 meet Frenzy that's feeling more like a fad rather than 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.520 a food fix. With her cover story, we've got Bloomberg 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.120 News Consumer reporter Dina Shanker, along with the Bloomberg Business 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.040 Week editor Joel Webber, both right here in our Bloomberg 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:14.679 Interactive Broker's studio. Joel, where's the beef. Well, the beef 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.840 has always been there. The what hasn't been around forever 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.280 has been the fake meat. And about a decade ago, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.800 you know, impossible burgers started to make some noise and 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.360 then along came Beyond Meat. And when Beyond Meat went 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.240 public that I p O was the biggest I p 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.319 O since the financial crisis was wild to sue to 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.520 read that I no idea And so that was all 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.760 really interesting, and I think um consumers were beginning to 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.199 think like, hey, this is the future of what meat 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.360 is gonna look like. And then fast and I think, 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.720 you know, the pandemic, more people tried this stuff, and 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.080 then you throw in a little inflation and grocery bills 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.080 going up, and then oh, by the way, what's this 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:00.240 fake meat stuff made out of? And the company's uh, 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:04.000 have hit some headwinds. And what really caught my attention 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.120 and our attention to the magazine was Dina's all star 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.160 reporting throughout this and the headlines that we're starting to 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.280 resonate with me were about the fast food stuff because 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.600 all these fast food companies were suddenly was like, wait, wait, 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.560 why isn't McDonald's doing this, you know, and where why 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.400 isn't anything permanent on the menus, And so we started 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:23.600 talking to Dina about, you know, what's going on with 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.320 fake meat, and it turns out that, you know, there 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.480 was a moment where fake meat was in a hyper 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.520 growth mode and it's beginning to look more like that 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.559 fat right, Dina, take us inside your reporting. What'd you learn? 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.040 Thanks so much. Yeah, it was It's been years in 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:41.240 the making because, as you said that I p O 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.240 was huge and everyone was excited about it. I mean 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:48.200 the entire industry. Suddenly you had like the small new 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.600 startups that were coming up that we're getting tons of 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.160 funding because everyone's an opportunity here. You had the big 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:57.959 food companies coming out with new products or reinventing old ones. 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.920 Everyone wanted a piece of this because every one thought, yeah, 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.880 we can convince meat eaters to sub something else in. 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.720 But it turns out that that's a really hard sell 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.720 and it's gonna get even harder if the food doesn't 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:15.120 taste quite as good, and it doesn't according to most 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.319 people that you will ask about it. It's also more expensive. 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:22.200 And then yes, environmentally these things are so much better 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.000 for the planet, but most people aren't buying for the planet, 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.600 they do care about their health, but then turns out 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:31.079 these products are not healthy. Now, some people might say 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:35.120 they're marginally healthier, but even that is not settled. So 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:39.800 consumers just really started backing away, and we saw sales 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:46.320 plummet at the supermarket, restaurants just everywhere basically. Well, and 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.160 this is something we've been talking about it before we 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.880 got going. Is for me, like, if it was healthy, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.560 I'd be a buy in. I mean, what exactly is 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.280 in it? I mean, I know there's a lot of sodium, right, 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:02.080 not good? What else? So these are ultra processed foods, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.960 which means that the ingredients themselves are processed or their 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:11.160 extracts of other foods. So, uh, that means the ingredients list, 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.920 are they so crazy compared to other things in the supermarket. 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.120 They're not. There's a ton of processed food out there, 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:21.280 but which I also don't exactly that and that's exactly right. 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.520 And so if you're trying to appeal to health conscious consumers, 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.160 those are exactly the consumers who know to uh, flip 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.440 the package and look at the ingredients and look at 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.360 the nutrition facts. Okay, So that actually speaks to an 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:37.200 interesting thing here because the audience for this has you know, 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.079 when you look at it, it's like, okay, well, if 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.760 it's fake meat, that means vegetarians would want this, right, 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:46.720 But how's it gone over with meat eaters versus vegetarians 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.600 since those were the two categories of people that they're 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.839 trying to get here, Right, So, vegetarians and vegans by 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.080 the most of this stuff per capita um. But at 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.360 the same time, some of them are not really so 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.880 into it either because they're not really looking for something 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:06.800 that is that close to something meaty. Vegetarian, I don't 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.480 want to see the food bleeding. There are plenty of 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.400 vegetarians that like meat, but they have other reasons for 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.600 animal welfare reason, environmental reasons, and these are appealing to them, 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.480 and they're probably the best customers. They're buying the most 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.320 of it um. But then you also have the meat eaters, 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:26.800 and meat eaters just don't buy with regular frequency. They 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.480 kind of dip int about um. A lot of people, 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.200 you know, thought I'd like to cut down my meat 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.040 intake and tried these. Some of them said okay, well 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.440 that was that was okay, And and then they've got 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.520 comfortable with the idea of something like lentils or beans um, 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.600 which is also a lot healthier and cheaper. Um. Other 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.360 people were like, well, yeah, I'll go back. I'll have 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.760 some chicken because chickens. I know, chicken is healthy, and 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.440 it's still a lot less expensive than beef and less 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.000 expensive than this stuff. So the consumer base is just 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.680 really very narrow. What is it about food fads that 0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.840 gets people so excited? And I'm old enough to remember 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.920 like the snack Wells fat free food craze which you mentioned, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.200 the Olean slash Olestra stuff and potato chips, which I 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.800 remember my dad explaining to me what that was. I mean, 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.080 that was supposed to be really exciting, and then after 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.240 a few months or a few years, people start to realize, 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.520 wait a second, this isn't good for us. It's like 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:24.920 we haven't even learned this. We're all just really obsessed 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.040 with the idea of looking good and also want to 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.040 eat all the time. And so anytime somebody can offer 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.240 a solution that sounds like it will let us be 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.480 both of those things, we all jump on it. Are 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:40.240 you looking at me? King? Okay? One thing I do 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.240 want to ask more about. The article is ultimately about 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.800 two different companies right Beyond and Impossible and beyond the 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.480 publicly traded one, and we talked a little bit about 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.200 that I p O before UM, which you know, just 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.400 to rewind the clock a little bit and like think 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:57.960 about how how rosy of a picture it was in 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:03.000 twenty nineteen in July, UH stock hitting out all time 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.400 high children four dollars a share. UH right now is 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.160 trading at fourteen. So gives you a sense of how 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.720 much enthusiasm has come out of this space. But so 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.240 what what what do the prospects look like for Beyond? 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:17.600 And what about Impossible, which is still privately held. So 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:22.360 to strategic differences, I think here, yeah, to UH companies 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.640 obviously with a lot in common, but also that operate 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.000 very differently. Beyond has a lot of issues that I 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.960 wouldn't attribute to the category or to consumers. They have 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:34.400 a really hard time executing and we've covered that for 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.920 a while. UM, they've had a really hard time bringing 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.520 costs down because of that. UM, their leadership is constantly changing, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:44.480 so they have their own problems. Impossible is private, so 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:47.800 of course we don't know the same with the same 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:49.960 level of detail about their sales. We do know their 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.040 supermarket sales are way up. For twenty two, they went 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.520 up by more than fifty according to the company. The 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.200 way they did that was largely by just adding more 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.200 and more products, which is a tried and true food 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.639 UM strategy to get people to buy more things. You know, 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.520 you just in two ways. One is that the more 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.480 products you can put on a shelf, the more likely 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.520 a consumer is going to notice them. You know, when 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:17.280 a yogurt company has like fifteen flavors, it's not because 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.280 they think every one of those fifteen flavors is going 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.280 to sell well. If they want that space and um, 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.280 then whichever one of those products do sell well, they'll 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.480 hold on too, and they'll keep cycling in and out 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.280 of innovation. So that's the that's what Impossible is doing 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.600 now in supermarkets, and it makes total sense because their 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.240 CEO comes from Chobani and has all of that experience. 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.760 You know, the thing about feeding the world and that 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.280 the you know, meat, what it does to the environment, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.120 to our earth, and especially as the population continues to grow, 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:45.720 there is something to say that we've got to figure 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:49.720 out some agricultural innovation, right and food at innovation is 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.360 it just a case that they need more time. Am 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.679 I missing something? What do what do folks saying? We 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.440 just have about thirty seconds? I think if it were me, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.840 I would never depend on sumer behavior for big changes 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:06.880 because this country has three million consumers in it and 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.399 that's a lot of that's a lot of people to 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.440 expect to change their behavior. I'd go, I try to 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:16.679 get corporate behavior to change, because there's many fewer corporations 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:21.560 lave grown meat likelihood to happen. I'd say, really breaking 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.040 about it more, you know, like there's more, there's more 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:29.320 to you know, put on a peat tradition study that 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.240 sounds like sounds like cover story. There's something about dipping 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.840 dots to in the story. We didn't get into connection 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.920 beyond me. You've got to read it because it's, oh 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.560 my god, I'm terrified. Dina Shankar a killer story consumer 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:48.280 reporter at Bloomberg News. It's the cover of the new 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.760 issue of Bloomberg Business We check it out, Jill Weber 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.119 are thanks to you, Editor, Bloomberg Business Week, the new 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.679 issue on newsstands on the Bloomberg Online. This is Bloomberg. 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.119 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol man us 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.520 Here and Tim Stanovic on Bloomberg Radio. I feel like 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.919 a day doesn't go by that we don't talk about Tessa. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.560 I mean makes me ask howcom Tesla gets all the love, 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.480 especially when it comes to stocks collapsing in the e 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.560 V space, because uh, it does seem like that's the 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.520 only one we often talk about it does. I mean, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.120 let's just say, Elon Musk does garner a lot of attention. 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.040 But you know, one of our colleagues here a Bloomberg 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.879 News wrote all about that, writing about just that in 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.680 more is Bloomberg News Equity Markets rewarder Ashton Day. She 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:33.040 notes that well, Tesla's epic stock price collapse has dominated 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:34.960