1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: Hello everyone, and welcome to it could happen here. My 3 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: name is Daniel Kurd. I'm a writer, analyst, and researcher 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate professor of 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 2: political science and a senior nonresident fellow at the Arab 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 2: Center Washington. Today we'll be speaking with Bushracherdi, the policy 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: lead for Oxfam. Our discussion will cover oxfam's work in 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: the occupied Palsingian territories and the current crisis in a 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: distribution we are recording end of July July twenty seventh, 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. NPR reported in May of this year 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: that Gaza has already reached Phase four of the Integrated 12 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: Food Security Phase classification. The IPC just coordinated out of 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 2: the UN Food and Agriculture Organization and an organization called 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: the Famine Early Warning Systems Network. So what does this 15 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: all mean? Phase four means emergency. As NPR rights in 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: there may report hardships, deepened, food gaps widen, and people 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: resort to really extreme forms of coping. So the Famine 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: Early Warning Systems Network does not have a presence in 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 2: Gaza at the moment. This is their best guess Phase 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 2: five is when they declare a famine. We're seeing very 21 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: terrible images in the media and on our phone screens 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: about the level of deprivation in Gaza at the moment 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: because aid has been blocked off by the Israeli government. 24 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: Writing for Al Jazero just a few days ago, former 25 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: UN official Munzakhrane accuses the UN of not declaring famine 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 2: despite overwhelming evidence, because he says officials are worried about 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 2: their careers and possibly worried about antagonizing the US. But 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: regardless of whether it's Phase four or Phase five, the 29 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: situation in Gaza is dire. In July twenty seventh, today 30 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: when we're recording, there's reporting that there might be air drops, 31 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: that the trucks on the Egyptian Wader are moving towards 32 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: Gaza after the Israeli government has received a lot of 33 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: pressure or the ongoing aid crisis. But of course that 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: may be too late for Mini gouzs as I said, 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: we're speaking with today who will talk to us about 36 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: her work from the vantage point of Oxgam Bush. 37 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. 38 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: So let's begin with first describing ox GAM's work and 39 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: occupied Palsonate territories. 40 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. 41 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: Sure, we've been here since nineteen fifty six. We have 42 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: offices in Ramala and Jerusalem and Gaza. And AUXAM was 43 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 3: originally set up as an organization to fight famine, you know, 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 3: the first kind of famines that we've seen globally's that's 45 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: originally why AUXLAM was got to set up. And then 46 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 3: so a lot of its programming is around water and sanitation, 47 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 3: food security, lively goods, working with farmers. A big part 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 3: of our program is water and sanitation, helping for example, 49 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: farming communities, providing them with irrigation pipelines. You know, it 50 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 3: could be agricultural inputs needed for growing their crops. It 51 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 3: could be technical support to farmers to support them and 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 3: growing for example, vegetables. How do you grow crops of 53 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: vegetables around date trees? You know, So it's kind of 54 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: that kind of work. In terms of the food security 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: component of that, we have a big part of our 56 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 3: work is with women's organizations, women's cooperatives, women's farming cooperatives 57 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: as well, especially in the West Bank. And then a 58 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: lot of a lot of work with kind of the 59 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: relevant ministries and relevant trade unions on for example, agricultural insurance, 60 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: so getting you know, trying to get insurance for farmers 61 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: in case they're crops or are are ruined or sabotaged 62 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 3: or damaged for example by settler violence, et cetera. So 63 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: there's kind of like a piloting kind of program where 64 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 3: we're looking at the potential of providing insurance to the 65 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,559 Speaker 3: farming sector here and palastline. 66 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: Other things could be could look like, you. 67 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 3: Know, small grants to start a small kind of business 68 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 3: women for examples, women's cooperatives and farming. I mean, so 69 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: a lot of it worked like this, and most of 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: our operations are actually run through partners. So we have 71 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 3: about ninety partners kind of across the occupied file sting territory, 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: and about eighty to ninety hoard of our operations are 73 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: actually completely implemented through partners. But of course, after seventh 74 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 3: of October, our programming really drastically kind of shifted to 75 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: fully humanitarian, where you know, we are now basically providing 76 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: hygiene kits, food parcels, some agricultural inputs as well, where 77 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: we could you know, set in Gaza it looks like 78 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 3: setting up latrines, hand washing state like mobile stations. It 79 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 3: can be like water trucking. I mean it's it's changed, 80 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: you know, depending on the access that we've had. So 81 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 3: for example, since March this year, we've not been able 82 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 3: to enter anything because of Israel's full total siege on Gaza, 83 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: so nothing kind of entered. So our operations looked like 84 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,679 Speaker 3: psychosocial so port to women, young girls and shelters trucking 85 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 3: water from one area to another where we felt like 86 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 3: these communities potentially needed water or had a little access 87 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 3: to water, it could look it looked like a cash 88 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 3: for work. We do a big, big, big, big part 89 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: of our both now in the West Bank and in 90 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 3: Gaza is providing cash for work. So for example, we 91 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: have daily workers that will remove solid waste with their 92 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: bare hands unfortunately because there's no materials to remove waste 93 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 3: in Gaza. But then they would receive like kind of 94 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 3: daily daily rates in order to get paid. And then 95 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: there's like cash vouchers for the most vulnerable, where they 96 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 3: can you know, have a voucher in a store and 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 3: they can you know, purchase items that we've read for 98 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 3: example with a store owner to that you know, people 99 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 3: can purchase with our with our kind of cards. So 100 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: it's very versatile, versatile and especially in last years, had 101 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 3: to adapt and change, you know, very quickly and flexibly 102 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 3: depending on the situation with available in the markets. But 103 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: that's kind of like what our programming looks like across 104 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: the territory. 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for explaining that, and it brings me 106 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 2: to I mean, you touched on a little bit, but 107 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: it brings me to a second question that I think 108 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 2: is important for listeners to to understand is how has 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: the war in post October seventh really impacted that the 110 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: restrictions that is really government is imposing. 111 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: So we know there's a stage in Gaza, but also 112 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: in the West Bank. 113 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely there is so much happening. How has that impacted 114 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: ox FAM's work. It's completely restricted US and not just US, 115 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: it's all of the international kind of sector, including UN agencies. 116 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: I mean, we know what they did with in Owa. 117 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: Well maybe explain that. 118 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll, I mean Israel, the government of Israel's kind 119 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 3: of attacks or let's say, attacks on the humanitarian civic space. 120 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 3: It's been a long standing policy of THEIRS and started 121 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: well before seventh of October. It's gotten just you know, 122 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: much tighter, much more restrictive since but you know, this 123 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 3: goes back decades. I would say kind of the most 124 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: notorious development in shrinking space, we call it shrinking space, 125 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 3: is twenty twenty one when they declared six organizations Palestinian 126 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 3: civil society organizations, mostly our human rights organizations, so some 127 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 3: of the most notorious and well known human rights organizations 128 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: where they're designated as terrorist organizations. So that was kind 129 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: of the first big, you know development where many of 130 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: those partners, those six partners were actually partners of international organizations. 131 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: So you know, we found ourselves kind of advocating for 132 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: continuing our support to these six despite the designation by 133 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 3: Israel never you know, and there was never, of course 134 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 3: evidence provided by the Israeli government as to what evidence 135 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: they had, why would they deem these organizations terrorist organizations, 136 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: But you know, they continued to operate under very very 137 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 3: difficult circums stances. Their offices were rated, their assets were confiscated, 138 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: but you know they're still operational and we're still certainly 139 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 3: supporting them. And of course, you know, shrinking space or 140 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: the restrictions on humanitarian civic space, it translates into, you know, 141 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 3: into so many different restrictions. It could be you know, 142 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 3: restrictions on permits, restrictions on what crossings you're able to 143 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: use as a humanitarian you know, whether you can go 144 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: through that crossing or another. It can be visa restrictions, 145 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 3: and we started seeing the visa restrictions even before the war. 146 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: And after the war, of course, everything kind of changed, 147 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 3: and now we're facing and I'm talking more about like 148 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: legal restrictions in terms of our work, and then I 149 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: can talk more about like the siege and the actual 150 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: blockade of humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is you know, 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: effectively completely restricted and our operations and has dismantled really 152 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: the humanitarian sector and in its satirety and has reverberating 153 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: impacts to the rest of the terrritory. But for us, 154 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 3: I think the first kind of sign of turmoil was 155 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 3: when there was already a decision but nothing had been 156 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: kind of formally communicated of a new registration process for 157 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: international organizations that started already in twenty twenty four, where 158 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: the civil administration you know, announced to our respective organizations 159 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: that there will be a. 160 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: New registration procedures. Is really simple. 161 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 3: Administration is really civil administration, and so it was only 162 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 3: kind of ten months later that the criteria was kind 163 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: of presented to us, and only a year later that 164 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: the criteria actually came into effect. But in that time 165 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 3: where they were announcing these new measures, there were lots 166 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 3: of visa denials. Permits of course, were completely non existent 167 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: for humanitarians. So for example, you know, I had a 168 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 3: permit to Gaza for six months, that of course stopped. 169 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 3: All of our staff in the West Bank had permit 170 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: it's to travel both to Gaza and in Israel. Those 171 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: stopped on the seventh of October, and say, and vice versa. 172 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: Are our colleagues in Gaza who had permits to come 173 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 3: to Israel to travel through the Allen b Bridge because 174 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: of course, you know, policies don't have an airport, so 175 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: they have to travel through Allen B to travel through Amen. 176 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: Those also stopped. So that's one other kind of like 177 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 3: you know, measure that was taken against international organizations. And 178 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: then when the when the new registration rules were made 179 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: public and the criteria was made public, there was a 180 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 3: new there's a new ministry set up called the Ministry 181 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 3: of Dyspora and something affairs, I know, dyspora affairs. I 182 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 3: forget the full name of the ministry. But it's it's 183 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: an interministerial committee that you know, it's made of basically thucks. 184 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: You know, if you look at the background of some 185 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: of these people that are in the committee, I mean, 186 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: you know, it's and they are now deciding of the 187 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 3: registration of international organizations. And the criteria is onerous, it's political, 188 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: it's big, and you know, even even it crosses some 189 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: of our red lines in terms of organization. I mean, 190 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: one of one of the I think the most contentious 191 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: criteria is submitting staff lists and all of the information 192 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 3: of our staff to the Israeli authorities, which is something 193 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 3: we never had to do before. 194 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: It's not something that. 195 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 3: Is actually in any other context, it's not abnormal for 196 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 3: an authority or country or state to ask, you know, 197 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 3: who is your staff working for this organization you're seeking 198 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 3: registration from. But obviously, because of the you know, unrecedented 199 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 3: number of humanitarian workers that have been targeted and indiscriminately 200 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 3: targeted as well in Gaza, We've got more than four 201 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: hundred humanitarian workers killed. At this point, we are unable 202 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 3: to submit our staff lists because of you know, we 203 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 3: have no guarantees of protection, even though we have guarantees 204 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: under you know. 205 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: International law. 206 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 3: This is not applied when it comes to Gaza and 207 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 3: in Israel's condo in the hostilities against humanity and workers 208 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 3: in the humanity in space. So that's one of the criteria, 209 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 3: but there's also other criteria where, for example, we would 210 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: be revoked our registration or not re registered if we 211 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: are seen to support some of the designated organizations that 212 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: were designated early on, which most of our organizations do. 213 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: So many of us are facing about to face basically 214 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 3: being deregistered in Israel and losing our presence in Jerusalem, 215 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: which is you know, has such a big implications, not 216 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 3: because you know, we're so desperate to have presence in Jerusalem, 217 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: but because it says a lot about what the future 218 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 3: of East Jerusalem means. Because you're moving Pherwa, you're removing 219 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 3: the INGOs, and you're moving all the program and the 220 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 3: support that goes to organizations that are operating in Jerusalem, 221 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 3: providing legal services to people that are losing their homes, 222 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: that are getting their homes demolished on a daily basis, 223 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: legal services for settler attacks that happen also in East Jerusalem, 224 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 3: and school provision of school service educational items, educational activities, 225 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: summer caps, you know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera. 226 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 3: The list goes on that will be removed. And that's 227 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: kind of you know, it's working now in parallel with 228 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 3: the annexation kind of plan that Israel has been threatening 229 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: and implementing at the same time, so you know, everything 230 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: is moving towards this annexation. It also has fast implications 231 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 3: because many of our organizations operate in Area C, because 232 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 3: the most vulnerable communities, you know, are in area of 233 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 3: SE and so we always you know, we as part 234 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: of our programming is obviously reaching the most vulnerable Palestinians 235 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 3: and those that need to help and support the most 236 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: and so annexing Area CE and do you registering at 237 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: the same time, do registering us from Israel means that 238 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: we will also have very a lot of difficulty assing 239 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: these communities and accessing areas. See as we mention here 240 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 3: in organizations, we've not had visas for international staff for 241 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 3: since the beginning of the war. And then when you 242 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: look at you know, Gaza, So this is kind of 243 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: like in the West Bank and what is how it's 244 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: evolving in the West Bank. But then you know, the 245 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: fact that we would be deregistered would effectively mean that 246 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 3: we cannot operate in Gaza any because you have to 247 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: have an Israeli registration in order to be able to 248 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 3: bring goods in inside Gaza, and so if you're deregistered, 249 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 3: you can't bring in goods into Gaza. The strigulation of 250 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: the Humanitarians civic spaces is all encompassing in Gaza. Of course, 251 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: it looks like our materials have been systematically and deliberately denied, rejected, delayed, 252 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 3: you know, over the course of the last twenty months. 253 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: But of course, adding it's worse since March second, when 254 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: Israel imposed it's total sea jong Gaza and basically has 255 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: completely sidelined the un IGO's and policy in the civil society. 256 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 3: And since then we've not been able to enter anything 257 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 3: in Gaza, and I doubt that we will be able 258 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 3: to enter anything moving forward, especially that the registration kind 259 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: of window ends in September. Beginning September, that's when we'll 260 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 3: finally know who is going to be registered who's not. 261 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 3: But I expect for an organization like OXBAM that's part 262 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: of the registration process, it's very vague. So we don't 263 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 3: know how they will apply it, but there's something about 264 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 3: basically calling again, you know, calling out or speaking out 265 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 3: or calling for accountability of individual soldiers and members of 266 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 3: the IDEF. So what that means, I don't know. But 267 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: we call for accountability every day because it's part of 268 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 3: our mandate. We're not just an operational organization. We're a 269 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 3: rights based organization, and so we have a mandate to also, 270 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 3: you know, where we witness violations of human rights or 271 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: of international law, it is our mandate to speak out 272 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: on it. And so there's no operations without that. So 273 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: that's where we're at right now. It's it's an incredibly 274 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: difficult space. It is of course deliberate. This is a 275 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: deliberate policy of Israel. That is, you know, it's carried 276 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 3: out against the kind of human humanitarians, civic space for years. 277 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 3: It's also there's another law, there's an a law that's 278 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 3: against Israel a human rights organization where it will start 279 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: taxing it's really human rights organization that are receiving foreign 280 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: funding by fifty to eighty percent or something like that. 281 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 3: So it's just it's it's you know, it's deliberate, it's 282 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 3: thematic we have been the only ones in Gaza that 283 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 3: have been able to actually report independently on what's happening 284 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: in Gaza, like the humanitarians happen, not even the journalists, 285 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 3: because of course, you know, I can argue that, yes, 286 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: Palestine journalists are independent, but you know, the most of 287 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 3: the world would probably disagree with that. So really, I 288 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: mean the independent kind of eyes and the neutral eyes, 289 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: or let's say, part impartial eyes, I won't say neutral 290 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 3: happened the humanitarians and un agencies. Sidelining us means that 291 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 3: we'll also see a reduction of quality reporting on what's 292 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 3: actually happening in Gaza. 293 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: So it's terrifying. 294 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: It's an attack on our ability to even understand the 295 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: level of the problem. Absolutely that is being left in 296 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: the wake of this tour, which of course is on going. 297 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: But also I think it's really important, I mean the 298 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: things you just described, I think it's really important for 299 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: listeners to understand this the aid question, the question of 300 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: these humanitarian organizations and what's happening to them, whether it's 301 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: the registration through the Ministry of the Aspera Affairs, and 302 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: I think combating anti Semitism is. 303 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: Its full name, that's it should have red. 304 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean there are so many problems with 305 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 2: this ministry, and it has been even internally criticized by 306 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 2: by Tel Aviv University for example. 307 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,959 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or even actually members of the government itself. 308 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: By the way, I think there was a there was 309 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: something about somebody in Israeli government not attending the inter 310 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 2: Ministerial Committee meeting, you know, because it was wanting to 311 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 2: be associated to it. 312 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, it's a very problematic committee. 313 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: But I mean if this kind of committee is responsible 314 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: for registering Internet you know, international organizations and humanitarian organizations. 315 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: Then there's all the blockade of aid. 316 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: All of these are parts of the same ethnic cleansing 317 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: strategy that we're seeing in Gaza, whatether you want to 318 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: call it ethnic cleansing or genocide. You know, people are 319 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: being eradicated. Yeah, we're seeing large scale displacements in the 320 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 2: West Bank, and as you mentioned, if these organizations also 321 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: stop existing in Jerusalem, we'll see Jerusalem next. Yeah, not 322 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 2: piecemeal the way that we've been seeing it possible, absolutely, 323 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: you know, a more aggressive way. And so I really 324 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: think it's important to kind of underscore for listeners that 325 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: this is part and parcel of an annexation and ethnic 326 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: cleansing plan that people from the Religious Zionist Party have 327 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 2: been saying since the early twenty tens. Bazilos Mootrich, Finance 328 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: minister today had the decisive plan that said, you know, 329 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: you either surrender or transfer, and we're at that level. 330 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: They are transferring, they are making sure that that happens. 331 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: And they are in the West Bank as well. 332 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's quiet and all eyes are 333 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 3: on Gaza, but I mean we've seen displacement of entire 334 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 3: communities in the last few weeks only, yeah, let alone 335 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 3: the largest numbers have forcibly displaced Palestinian since nineteen sixty 336 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: seven in the West Bank this year. 337 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: And in the refugee camps that have been attacked exactly, so. 338 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 3: You know, and and again, I mean, you know, you 339 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: can look at the history of smear campaigns against Ohawa 340 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 3: by the Israeli authorities. I mean that's just in itself. 341 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: You know, the services that provide you know, we have 342 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 3: to re emphasize like education, health services, I mean, you know, shelter, 343 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 3: oh No what provides key services that the policy authority 344 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 3: has no ability to respond to. What is going to 345 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: happen to all of these people when you know and already. 346 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: Know what. 347 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: So listeners, electricity cut off and real love. This is 348 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: our life. 349 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we might have to restart some of that 350 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: and that's fine. 351 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, So did you want to pick up where you lost? 352 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 2: I was? Yeah. 353 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 3: I mean the point is is that this is, you know, 354 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 3: a longstanding policy by Israel. It's just like very much 355 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: accelerated like every other policy if theirs when it comes 356 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: to you know, forcible displacement, collective punishment, you know, detensions. 357 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 3: I mean, everything is at a record high and accelerating 358 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 3: so quickly with this. You know, right wing, far right 359 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 3: wing government that's you know, has zero checks and balances, 360 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 3: zero nobody holds them accountable to anything, and so you 361 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: know they're able to get away with all of this. 362 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 3: So I mean my sense is that you know, very 363 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 3: soon you will not no longer see kind of the 364 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: long standing organizations that have been here for decades that 365 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 3: have very much understood the context very well and have 366 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: understood that it's impossible to do the work that we 367 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 3: do without also bearing witness and speaking out on what 368 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: we're witnessing. And I think the UN and it's in 369 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: that way, you know, even the United Nations, where in 370 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 3: Pelstine has made sure that the States committed to that 371 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: mandate because of how important it is to speak out 372 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 3: on what you're seeing around you. I think like that's 373 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 3: purely I think, like, you know, we're the only ones 374 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 3: that are able to witness and record independently what we're 375 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 3: seeing on a daily day basis. And I think the 376 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: UN has been incredible in keeping a record of that. 377 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I think they started recording in two thousand 378 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 3: and eight, so it's like eighteen years now almost of 379 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 3: monitoring violations all across the territory. And if it wasn't 380 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 3: for the work that the UN has done in that, 381 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: we wouldn't be able to say that there is a 382 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: genocide being carried out in Gaza, or that the risk 383 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 3: of ethnic cleansing has risen exponentially in the West Bank. 384 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: The reason why we're able to say this is because 385 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 3: we're able to see the patterns and the data, and 386 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 3: you know, you can contest the data. But you know, 387 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 3: even you were talking about the IPC, the IBC is 388 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: not even reflective of what's really happening, and they say 389 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: it themselves, but you know, of course, the media, the 390 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 3: way the media kind of focuses on what the results 391 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 3: because you know, you only have time for sound bites. 392 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 3: But if we read the IPC. 393 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: Alerts, it's clear that one they're always delayed, so they're 394 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 2: always talking about a time that's already passed and we're way, 395 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: we don't beyond that. 396 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: And two it says that it doesn't have access to Gaza. 397 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 3: But look at the testimonies, you know, just like just 398 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 3: reading the testimonies that some of our organizations have recorded 399 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: in the last week, just talking about our own colleagues 400 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: and how they're facing starvation themselves. I mean, I think 401 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: the testimonies speak to themselves on what is happening in Gaza. 402 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: And I don't need the IPC to tell me that 403 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 3: there's a classification four or five. It's never going to 404 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 3: declare famine when it's not there, Like, there's never going 405 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 3: to be a time where the IPC because that's not 406 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 3: even the role of the IPC. The role of the 407 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 3: IPCs not to declare famine. The role the IPC is 408 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: just to collect the data and publish the data and 409 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: then it's the role of the UN or another international 410 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: body to do so. So we're not going to see 411 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 3: if I'm at declaration, because we don't have access and 412 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 3: so you know, we're we're not going to be able 413 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 3: to say that with confident. It's because the IPC is 414 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 3: never going to be able to publish that data. 415 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: But I don't think it matters. 416 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: I think what matters is what we're seeing on the world, 417 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 3: what's being reported, and you know, I mean it's undeniable 418 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 3: really by the pictures themselves. I mean that the videos 419 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 3: and the pictures that are coming out of Gaza just 420 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 3: speak for themselves really, So it's definitely unprecedented times for us, 421 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 3: and it's going to be a very very interesting and frightening, 422 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 3: terrifying here to be frank. 423 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean, as I said at the beginning, 424 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: And there are of course critiques also of the limitations 425 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: of the UN, but this idea that they are wanting 426 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: organizations as a condition of registering them to somehow not 427 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: bear witness to what is happening and not to write 428 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: reports about what's happening, it's a way of hobbling the 429 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: ability of actually creating policies like if you want to 430 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 2: talk about famine, or if you want to talk about poverty, 431 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: as Oxgram does, how could you solve it without talking 432 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 2: about the root cause? In every way, in every direction, 433 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: the Israeli government is attempting to hobble the ability of 434 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: international organizations of the past, Indians themselves to be able 435 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 2: to solve the root causes of these problems. Yeah. 436 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean it will have to be fine, creative ways, 437 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 3: just like you know, our Palstinian Civil Society partners that 438 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: you know have been also designated, have had to find, 439 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 3: you know, ways to continue doing their work. But you know, 440 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 3: I mean even then, you know, they've lost funding, they've 441 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: had to reduce their operations, they've had to reduce their 442 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: field officers that go to the field and do this work. 443 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: So I mean, I I it's it's so uncertain, but 444 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 3: I think the fact that many of these organizations have 445 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 3: been here for so long understand so deeply the context. 446 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: I think organizations will also do whatever they can in 447 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 3: order to ensure that they continue the important work here 448 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 3: and find ways to continue to work. 449 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how. It's really new time for us, 450 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: like we've. 451 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 3: Never been there before, so we don't know what it 452 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: looks like how we're going to be able to continue 453 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: our work. But we're we're committed to that, so we 454 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 3: will find, you know whatever. I don't want to say 455 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 3: loophole because you know there are none, but we'll find 456 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 3: whatever way to continue to continue kind of being here 457 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 3: and being present and remaining remaining present because I think 458 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: it's also part of our commitment to the work that 459 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: we've been doing in OPT for decades. 460 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I think maybe we should end on 461 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: a discussion about the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. I mean, I've 462 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: already mentioned it in a previous episode, so I encourage 463 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 2: listeners to look into that, but I you know, I 464 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: think it's important we discuss what is this foundation and 465 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 2: what is the impact that has had on people in 466 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 2: Gaza and on international organizations that are already doing this work. 467 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, the GHI for Gaza Unentitarian Foundation SLASHDHF. I 468 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 3: don't like talking about it as such because it's the issue. 469 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: Of course, is that's one of the issues. But GHF 470 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: is part of many actors, okay, And it's not GHF. 471 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 3: GHF is a facade for many actors that you know, 472 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 3: the US and Israelis isn't Israeli plan. And I don't 473 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 3: think we need to we cannot, you know, I know 474 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 3: there's US military actors in ghf At, you know, the 475 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: border and shooting at people. But this isn't is reelly plant, okay, 476 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 3: and we have to dub. 477 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: It as such. 478 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: This plan actually came into We started hearing about. 479 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: This plan a year and a half ago. 480 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 3: It was maybe in May last year we saw the 481 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 3: General Islands plan on what they wanted to do in 482 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 3: the north when they started the ethnic cleansing campaign in 483 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: the north of Gaza, where they besieged the north and 484 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 3: tried to force everybody's south. The idea then was already 485 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 3: they had already were already hearing about something called humanitarian bubbles. 486 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 3: And the bubbles are the sites of what it's what's 487 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 3: what's become the sites, right, But this idea of what 488 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: has been floating around for for more than eighteen months. 489 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: It's just that nothing kind of transpired until May. I 490 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 3: guess that's when May and the operation started. So it's 491 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: really launched. This as an authorization mechanism. This is how 492 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 3: it was originally kind of and that would expand. Basically 493 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 3: is really military control over how AID enters moves within 494 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 3: and is distributed inside Gaza. And of course I mean 495 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 3: that and on its own is a clear attempt to 496 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 3: instrumentalize humanitarian aid. So you know, and I think it's it's, 497 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,439 Speaker 3: it's it's it's very important to clarify you know, our 498 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 3: organizations we operate and the extremely rigorous standards and mechanisms 499 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 3: where we're sure the aid is not diverted. And I 500 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 3: think a diversion, you know, it's been talked about like 501 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 3: humas eight divers A diversion exists everywhere. Its exists in 502 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 3: every crisis we work in. Like it's something that is 503 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: part of you know, crisis mode, like this is where 504 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 3: when there's a crisis, when there's chaos, that's where there's 505 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 3: space for informal actors to start popping up. So it's 506 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 3: a symptom of every crisis around the world. And so 507 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 3: you know, it's not just a Gaza thing. So we 508 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 3: have totocols on how we can ensure that a diversion 509 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 3: doesn't happen in operations. And of course, as humanitarians, we 510 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 3: would never accept military or profit driven intermediaries overriding what 511 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 3: we call principled aid delivery because it basically means that 512 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 3: you're expanding military control over aid operations by an actual 513 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,719 Speaker 3: party to the conflict you know, which, of course, risks 514 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 3: that aid will never reach the most vulnerable you know, 515 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: of course at a time when it was most needed. 516 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 3: So from our perspective, there is no scenario where we 517 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: would accept any attempts to militarize and privatize humanitarian aid, 518 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 3: whether it's a Gaza or anywhere else, because such actions 519 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 3: actually violate international humanitarian law, but also they undermine the 520 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 3: core principles of humanitarian law, which are a partiality, independence 521 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 3: in humanity. These are principles that guide all of our work. 522 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 3: And of course what is the most dangerous about this 523 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 3: model is not only the massacres that have occurred near 524 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: daily at these food distribution sites run by the GJEP 525 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 3: and other actors. It's that it's set such a dangerous 526 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 3: precedent where occupying powers around the world will now be 527 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: able to dictate the terms of aid based on their 528 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 3: political agendas and their military goals. That is, what's effectively 529 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: now happened, is that if it's happened in Gaza, why 530 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: can it not happen in Uganda and d Orsk and Sudan. 531 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 3: And I want to also take it a little back. 532 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 3: Let's talk about the peer. The peer last year is 533 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 3: exactly the same. 534 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. 535 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 3: It's an international company called fog Bow run by former 536 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: US military veterans and soldiers and others, other actors that 537 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 3: you know, spent three hundred and twenty million dollars on 538 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 3: a floating pier that brought virtually nothing in and in 539 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 3: fact was used for one rescue mission, rescue operation by 540 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 3: special forces where they entered. I think it was the 541 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 3: way that camp, the refugee camp at the time and 542 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 3: were able to obviously, yeah, rescue hostages, but kill I mean, 543 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: you know, a dozens in that operation using the peer, 544 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 3: and hence why we're like we do not we would 545 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 3: distance ourselves and from the beginning distance ourselves from the peer. 546 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: There's no difference with the distribution sites. 547 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 3: It's the same kind of idea that with logistics we 548 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: can we can address a political issue. Issue of Gaza 549 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 3: is not an issue of logistics something you went or 550 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 3: I gios don't know how to do the work policies. 551 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 3: So pelus, the use of society has been responding to 552 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 3: the civilian needs in Gaza from before the war, right, 553 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: you know, eighty percent of the Gaza population was dependent 554 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: on humanitarian assistance before the war. So, I mean, you know, 555 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 3: it's not that we didn't know how to do it, 556 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 3: it's that we were prevented from doing it. 557 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: We were deliberately prevented from doing it. So it's a 558 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: political decision. 559 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 3: It's not a logistical decision that prevents us from doing 560 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 3: our work in Gaza. And so branch thing Israel control 561 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: over who receives the aid, where they received the aid, 562 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: and from who has basically turned what is relief what 563 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: should be relieved to the civilian population. It's actually a 564 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 3: tool of coersion because what we saw is massacres, people 565 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: being shot indiscriminately at I mean, we heard doctor Nick 566 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: Maynard yesterday. Yesterday he came back from Gaza a week 567 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 3: ago where we've heard of children being shot in the 568 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 3: testicle at these distribution sites, you know, and not one 569 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 3: he mentioned on the same date he saw half a 570 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 3: dozen boys with the same injury, sniper shots in the 571 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 3: testicles at food distribution sites. So what's happened now is 572 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 3: that what Israel has done is that it blurred the 573 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 3: line between what humanitarian assistance is, what a military objective is, 574 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 3: and of course putting the civilian Palestine civilians and aid 575 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 3: workers as well, because aid workers we know of some 576 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 3: of our colleagues in different organizations that but even themselves 577 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 3: have had to go to these food distribution sites because 578 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 3: there's nothing and we're unable to even support our own 579 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 3: staff at risks. And of course, I mean this entire 580 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 3: system has eroded any protections that are guaranteed to aid 581 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 3: workers and humanitarian responses under international law and under the 582 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 3: Geneva Conventions. So it's not only that it killed people 583 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 3: and that it's harmed Palestinians, but it actually it's also 584 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: a complete disregard or international law, complete disregard of international law. 585 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 3: And at the same time, I think what people fail 586 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: to remember is that at the same time as this 587 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 3: plan of the distribution sites was set being set up 588 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 3: in the south, at the same time Israel every two 589 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 3: days was evacuating forcibly displaying basically the population towards the 590 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 3: south right, And in less than two months we got 591 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: almost one thousand Peltines that were killed, but also an 592 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 3: immense movement of the population towards the south because that's 593 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 3: the only place that they had food, right, So you know, 594 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 3: this is not protection, this is complete coercion. You know, 595 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: when you move aid into fence, supervise spaces under militaries, 596 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 3: really military control. Frankly, and what we saw from the 597 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: pictures recall some of the darkest chapters of humanitarian failure 598 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 3: of our of our history. 599 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: It's not protection, it's coercion. 600 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 3: And you know, no countries, nobody should ever support model 601 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: that is basically treating civilians as prisoners. And that's not 602 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 3: what a humanitarian aid is about. Humanitarian responses have to 603 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 3: be guided by international law. It has to remain voluntary, 604 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: it has to be grounded in the dignity of the people, 605 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 3: and it has to be delivered impartially not shaped by 606 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 3: Israel's occupation or israel siege or Israel's military control. So 607 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 3: not only has this scheme reinforced military control over the 608 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 3: Goss's ship, it has completely dehumanized Palestinians by design, like 609 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 3: Palastinians are only worth a box of food. That's that's 610 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 3: what basically essentially what has happened is that we have 611 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 3: reduced a humanitarian response that addresses hospitals, medical care, water, sanitation, waste, 612 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 3: water shelter. 613 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 2: It goes right to dignity to a box of flour. 614 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 2: You know, that you can get killed getting. 615 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: Or you get killed. 616 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,240 Speaker 3: And not only that, it's a first come, first serf. 617 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 3: You know, it's whoever's the strongest. It's the survival of 618 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 3: the fittest. That's not why I humanitarian A Day is about. 619 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 3: We're supposed to meet the most vulnerable. We need to 620 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 3: reach the pregnant moms, the people with disabilities, the number 621 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 3: of record number of amputees, and Gaza the record number 622 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 3: of disabled people than Gaza right now. 623 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: Children Half of Gaza are children. 624 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 3: They are part of some of the most vulnerable sections 625 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 3: of society. 626 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: Age should be going to them. They don't have to. 627 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 3: They shouldn't have to come to us walk for you know, 628 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 3: I mean some people have said twenty kilometers they've had 629 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: to walk to go to these distribution sides. In the 630 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 3: middle of the night, in the sand dunes, they have 631 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,919 Speaker 3: to duck because otherwise they might get shot by sniper shot. 632 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 3: And then when the gates of hell open of these 633 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,959 Speaker 3: you know, fence zones, whatever you want to call them. 634 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 3: I don't even like calling them distribution sites because they're 635 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 3: not distribution sizes. It implies that there's some sort of 636 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 3: like system to it. 637 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 2: There's no system there's literally the gates to hell and 638 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: then everybody flows into the you know, floods, and we've 639 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: heard of people carrying nine to protect themselves because they're 640 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: getting looted because it's not enough of course food. And 641 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: then there are gangs that are being weaponized by the YOP. 642 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: You so, and actually what I what I was saying 643 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 2: to people is that actually what GDTF has created is 644 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 2: created the perfect it's the perfect recipe for armed gangs 645 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 2: and a diversion to occur. Like it's actually like providing 646 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 2: the perfect environment for these informal actors, gangs, criminals to 647 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 2: prosper to you know, this is this is you're creating 648 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,800 Speaker 2: that kind of environment. Because let's just be very directed. 649 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 2: This is not about aid, no, of course not no, 650 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: It's about coersion. It's about coercion. I mean, as you 651 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: mentioned from the very beginning, it was about sequestering Palestinians 652 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 2: and they said it actually and by the way they 653 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 2: said it, it's really war. Cabinet has said that, you know, 654 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 2: and it's like we have to take things that face values. 655 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 3: Sometimes they said it. They've been saying it for the 656 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 3: last year. We just you know, waited until it happened 657 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 3: on the ground to be able to now say it 658 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: and confirm it. But this was their plan from the beginning, 659 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 3: and there was nothing implied. It was very explicit, right. 660 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 2: No, I mean, very very clear, and it really frustrates 661 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: me personally because you know, Arab media, Palestinian journalists, Palestinians 662 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: on the ground testimonies would would say, we're being arrested 663 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 2: at these sites, they're using facial recognition, they're very much 664 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 2: politicizing AID And it took forever for us to be 665 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 2: even be able to say it, to even be able 666 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: to report on it, until Western media sources confirmed yesterday 667 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: a number of children were released saw that from being 668 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 2: arrested at these AIG sites, and I couldn't mention that 669 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: in things that I wrote because they didn't believe Palestinian testing. 670 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 2: I mean, the GHF contractor themselves themselves have admitted to 671 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 2: what is happening and everything that we've been seeing and saying, 672 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 2: and you know, and warning, I mean, you know, i'd 673 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 2: like to say as well. I mean I want to 674 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,879 Speaker 2: I want to underscore actuallyanitarians have been underlining this very 675 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 2: very explicitly to everybody since before they were even set 676 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 2: so you know, I can seek for the clear conscious 677 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 2: that we did what we needed and we could you know, 678 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: what we could do, and we did warn that this 679 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 2: would happen and this would be the result, and now 680 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: here we are right. No, I mean, it's it's absolutely 681 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 2: important calling. So I want to mention to listeners. I 682 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 2: will put in the show notes a lot of you know, 683 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: these citations, the UN reporting that close to a thousand 684 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: people have died at these sites, the doctor Nick Maynard 685 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: speaking to Channel four News in Britain about what he saw. 686 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 2: I also want to point listeners to a volume that 687 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: was released called Suppressing Descent, edited by Zaha Hassan and h. A. Hellier, 688 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: because full disclosure, I do have a chapter in that book, 689 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 2: but it's about the shrinking civic space prior to October 690 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 2: seven and and and the dynamics that we have we 691 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 2: have seen, you know, basically playing out at this point. 692 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Bushel for coming and speaking with 693 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 2: us under such severe circumstances and explaining I think, really 694 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: succinctly the dangers of this moment, because what is happening 695 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 2: in Gaza will change the world. 696 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: It will change everywhere, and it already is. 697 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 3: I think, you know, I would tell listeners go look 698 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 3: at AP's article on fog Bow and Uganda and Sudan. 699 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 3: I'm already seeing it. It's not even that it will 700 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 3: change the world. We're already seeing the precedent that Gaza 701 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 3: has set for other humanitarying crises and for these military 702 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 3: actors and private contractors to profit from misery like that's 703 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 3: that's essentially what is happening. 704 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: That's happening. 705 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 3: So you know, I would also direct you to that 706 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 3: article from AP that came out a couple of weeks 707 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 3: ago about the same companies operating in Gaza and you know, 708 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,440 Speaker 3: being complicit in the atrocities that we're seeing unfolded Gaza 709 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 3: now operating in other contexts and prices humanitearing. 710 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,839 Speaker 1: Crises really terrible, breaking the world. 711 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. Yeah, Well, thank you so much and 712 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 2: thanks then, thank. 713 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: You and hopefully see you soon and talk to you soon, Michel. 714 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: Take care, it could happen. Here is a production of 715 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. 716 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 717 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 718 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 719 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could happen here. 720 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: Listened directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.