1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: you by Lacrosse Boots. Now, if you guys haven't had 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: the opportunity to check out the Navigator Series, it's a 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: brand new lineup from Lacrosse. They have the wind rows 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: for men and women. They also have the Atlas and 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: that's what I wore during my rut vacation this fall. 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: Check them out. They're very comfortable. Uh it's a traditional 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: rubber boot kind of mixed with a traditional hunting hiking boot. 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: They've mashed it together and the outcome is the Navigator Series. 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: Check it out at Lacrosse Footwear dot com. My name 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: is Clay Nucoleman. I'm the host of the Bear Hunting 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into the world 13 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: of hunting icon of North American wilderness bear We'll talk 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: about tactics, gear, conservation. It will also bring you into 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: some of the wildest country on the planet chasing. On 16 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: this podcast, Johnny Carrol Saine comes to the Bear Hunting 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: Magazine Global headquarters. Johnny is a freelance outdoor writer located 18 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: in the Central Ozarks. He's a self proclaimed philosophical hillbilly 19 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: and a cultural observer and he's written about hunting and 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: fishing for a couple of decades. We have a conversation 21 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: about where modern hunting is going and how it's basically 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: a hat tip or us paying homage to our hunter 23 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: gatherer roots, or in Johnny's words, the homage. We talk 24 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: about baiting deer, and we talk about the concept of 25 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: place inside of hunting. You're gonna enjoy this podcast with 26 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: Johnny Carrol Sane. Check out our full line and new 27 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: line of merchandise at bar dash hunting dot com. We 28 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: have a new flashy series. That's what we're calling that 29 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: flashy hats. One says flashy Mule, one says bear Grease, 30 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: and one says bare Dogs unique cool hat. We also 31 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: have hoodies, long sleeved T shirts and regular T shirts 32 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other stuff available on our website 33 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: and our new flashy series. Check that out on bar 34 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: dash hunting dot com. And if you aren't a subscriber 35 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: to Bear Hunting Magazine, hey check it out. Six times 36 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: per year you'll get bar Hunting Magazine delivered to your door. Incredible, 37 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: incredible service. Hey, just like old times, getting the magazine 38 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: delivered to your door. That you can read at your 39 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: leisure bear Dash hunting dot com. Johnny Carroll saying, I've 40 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: been meaning to ask you this, Where does the Carol 41 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: come from? That was my dad's middle name. That's your 42 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: middle asked my middle name. I actually didn't use it 43 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: most of my life, but when I started writing and 44 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: UH needed a bigger Google presence, Um, I used it 45 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: because I've got a distant relative named Johnny saying that 46 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: played for the New York Yankees, and uh he won 47 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: a few penance and uh I should have made Hall 48 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: of Fame, I think. But that's another story. He was, 49 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: he was, he was good. Yeah, there was a it 50 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: was a distant relative. It's like a second cousin. No, No, 51 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: he's distant. I wrote a story about him actually for 52 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: Arkansas Life a couple of years ago, and then part 53 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: of that story was trying to figure out how we 54 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: were related, because everyone I meet he was from Yale County, 55 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: which is the south of where I live in Polk County, 56 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: and so a lot of people i'd meet with here 57 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: my name and asked we were related, and I didn't know, 58 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: you know, saying is not a common last name. So 59 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure that we were, and and then I did 60 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: digging around, and it actually it was kind of by chance, 61 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: um that his group of sayings ended up in Arkansas 62 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: and my group of sayings were in Arkansas. They took 63 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: a similar paths. But there was a there was live 64 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: a long one. So you didn't like him. He wouldn't 65 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: like that. Your thinks, no, never and never met him before, 66 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: So you added the middle name in as a recognition 67 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: so people would be able to have a distinction. You know, 68 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: I'm this is Johnny Carroll saying the writer as a 69 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: sense John Johnny Franklin saying the baseball player. I've never 70 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: thought about using my middle name in my in my writing, 71 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: but it kind of does set you apart. There's something 72 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: about a three word name that I think, and you 73 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: get that hard k sound, which is, I don't know, 74 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: I like that any other part of my name, so 75 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: it sounds good. I see my first name as Aaron, 76 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 1: so they would be a lot of explaining because I'm, 77 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: you know, Aaron Clay Newcomb was my name, so I 78 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: go by my middle name. My parents, my parents uh 79 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: on two two of their boys, one of my brothers. 80 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: They went with a first name for whatever reason, and 81 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: then the middle name was the name that they went by. Yeah. Yeah, 82 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: they had full intentions of calling me Clay, but the 83 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: name of Aaron Clay. So I don't know. I'll think 84 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: about this as I'm branding my writing. Johnny, you're a 85 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: you're A You're a. I think I've heard somewhere and 86 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: it may have been you that said it. There may 87 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: have been somebody that said it about you. But I 88 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: heard the term hillbilly philosopher. Oh yeah, it will my website. 89 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: Well maybe it was your personal website. The philosophical hill 90 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: billy um doesn't imply that I'm super smart or or anything. 91 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: It basically, uh, well, I like it. Well, I tend 92 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: to think I'm an overthinker, and uh that was I thought. Actually, 93 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: the tagline on on the website is overthinking rural culture, 94 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: because that's what I tend to do is overthink things 95 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: and and uh, you know, dissect them and figure out 96 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: why we do this and why I do that, And 97 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: so that was that was behind the name. Uh uh. 98 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: One of my favorite writers, Edward Abbey, said that the 99 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: writer's part of the writer's job is to be a 100 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: critic of his culture, and so I thought, you know, 101 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: analyzing rural culture and specifically rural mountain culture. Southern mountain culture, 102 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: which is my product of was part of my job. 103 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: So that that figured you in the name is I 104 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,679 Speaker 1: want to I want to talk to you about rural 105 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: mountain culture and your observation as a cultural observer. Also 106 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: read that on the tagline somewhere. But before we do that, 107 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm Edward Abbey. I bought an Edward Edward Abbey 108 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: but a year ago because I had heard quite a 109 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: bit about him and had read some very interesting quotes 110 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: by him. But when I actually read one of the books, 111 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: he was like super dark. Yeah, he's pretty dark. Too 112 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: dark from for me? Which book did you read? It 113 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: was a little bitty book, was that Desert Solitaire? Mm hmm. No, 114 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: It was like a collection of short stories and it 115 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: was I mean when I say little, I literally mean 116 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: it was like a pocket book almost. I would have 117 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: to look what it was. But as I read it, 118 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, when you read a writer, 119 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: you you kind of can see, you hear what they say, 120 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: you hear their ideas and thoughts, but ultimately you see 121 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: the kind of who they are. And I was like, man, 122 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: this guy's dark. So anyway, I was. He had some 123 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: very interesting quotes, one of which I used I talked 124 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: about sometimes I won't be able to quote it verbatim, 125 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: but he he had a quote about how how men 126 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: came from being warriors, tamers of horses, and poets to 127 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: being office clerks and accountants, and how you couldn't stamp out, 128 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, a gazillion years of this of that stuff 129 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: to now fully make us these domesticated things that we 130 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: are now. Do you know, I can't remember if our 131 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: bady either, but I'm familiar with the quote, and I 132 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: agree with it. I like it. But so I like 133 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: him in like little snippets. Yeah, well, yeah, he was 134 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: a little dark. Actually, his cultural roots are very close 135 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: to ours here, uh he was. He's from the mountains 136 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania, and um, you know, like my family. You know, 137 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: we we talked about the Saints. That's where they came from. 138 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: They came into Port of Philadelphia and came down through 139 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Pencil of Vania, through the Appalachians, North Carolina, Tennessee, and 140 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: then on over in Arkansas. And so a lot of 141 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: the roots of the culture are the same, and that 142 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: that dark kind of almost I don't know the right 143 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: words to describe it, but it's it's not necessarily fatalistic, 144 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: though some of it is that that's maybe that's why 145 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: I can relate to him. A lot of his works 146 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: they resonate with me. But that quote specifically is a 147 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: strong quote. And he's right. I mean, actually, for millions 148 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: of years we were this and now, uh, we live 149 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: in a largely abstract world. Uh, you know, the worlds 150 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: that we occupy, the you and I occupy as a 151 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: writer and as a magazine publisher and writer or not. 152 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: You know, that's that's living in the abstract. Uh, whereas 153 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,719 Speaker 1: used before we lived in a flesh and blood more 154 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: of a flesh and blood world. We were at taming 155 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: horses and you know, unfortunately killing other people. But uh, yeah, 156 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: we're completely different creatures and we were back then. I 157 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: thought that's a good point he made. So you you 158 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: talked about your family coming to Arkansas. So you you 159 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: grew up in the southern Ozarks, and do you know 160 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: when your family came to those arcs? Uh? No, And 161 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: I grew up, Um, the Saints are from Newton County 162 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: and I grew up in Pope County, just a county 163 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: south and uh, I know that we go back the Saints. 164 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: And then my grandmother, uh paternal grandmother. Her maiden name 165 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: is Hefley, and Hefley's are everywhere. Oh yes, Uh, I'm 166 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: not exactly sure when either bunch came to New County, 167 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: but they've been there for generations. Um Mount Judy, which 168 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: is was, you know, kind of the epicenter of the 169 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: whole senhalg farm thing on the Buffalo. Um Mount Judy, 170 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: everybody in the cemetery, I like to say, I'm I'm 171 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: probably related to everyone in the cemetery. There still a 172 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: lot of people who live there. Uh. And I'm thinking 173 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: at least five or six generations on that side. Saints 174 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: probably were a little later to get to give people 175 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: a context. Newton County, I believe it is the most 176 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: is the least populated county in Arkansas. It's close there 177 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: maybe maybe some of those southern counties. Yeah, maybe some 178 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: of the southern counties where it's all farmland. Yeah, it's close. 179 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: And it's also one of the poorest counties. Um. Well, 180 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: you know, Jasper's the county seat, and what have we got? 181 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: Three hundred people? You see, I think fifteen eighteen years 182 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: ago there were like eight thousand people in the county. 183 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: That sounds about right, something like that. Part of what 184 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: makes it seem really really um, you know wild to 185 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: me is a large portion of its national's public land. Yes, 186 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: snooty County is. I tell people that Newton County would 187 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: be like the epicenter of those arcs, which geographically I 188 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: think so. And it's in the Boston Mountain Steel, which 189 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: is you know, more rugged than you know you and 190 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: now we're talking earlier about how you go north from 191 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: your place here and actually starts looking like the Great 192 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: Plains a little bit. You get on top of those 193 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: are Plateau, the Boston Mountain where we are now, and 194 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: going east toward Newton County, they even get more rugged 195 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: from here. Uh, new Newton would be as rugged as 196 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: we have. Not necessarily biggest, because the biggest mountains in 197 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Arkansas aren't. That's not where they're at like the tallest elevation, 198 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: but in terms of just like steepness, karst topography, deep 199 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: hollows and bluffs and going places they hadn't seen very 200 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: many people or any people. Maybe I'm a little bit 201 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: being romantic about this, but I think there are places 202 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: in Newton Cany. They probably haven't seen people. Yeah, yeah, 203 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: it's a It's probably my favorite county. You know, I've 204 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: not spent a lot of time there. I've never I 205 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: don't think I've ever hunted Newton County. I mean we 206 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of just were like the classic tourists over there, 207 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, on the Buffalo River and stuff. 208 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: But it's it is spectacular. You know. I've never got 209 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: to had a reason to say this, but now that 210 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: we're talking about Arkansas and getting here all use this 211 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: as a reason to say this. The only reason I 212 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: know this is because there was a a Newcomb family 213 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: book that I have nothing to do with. But uh 214 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: but we have this Newcomb book and it's a genealogy 215 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: book and it's like hundreds of pages long, and that 216 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: somebody and our family put together, I mean nobody that 217 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: I know. But the book goes down to uh, my 218 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: father's name is actually in the book, so it goes 219 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: down to him and uh so, so I'm a seventh 220 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: generation Arkansan and that so my kids would be eighth 221 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: generations Arkansas. And Joseph Newcomb came from Scotland and then 222 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: ended up in Kentucky. I guess came through the Cumberland 223 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: Gap into Kentucky and then ended up homesteading in Montgomery County, Arkansas, 224 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: which is down the wash Attals down in the little 225 00:13:54,760 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: community called Bumblebee, arkansassas that they came. They came to 226 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: Arkansas in eighteen twenty nine. Wow, Yeah, we have no 227 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: family land. I mean, that story sounds really cool and 228 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: I love that story. But again, that's the only reason 229 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: I know that is because just by a chance, somebody, 230 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: some newcom did their homework and it wasn't it wasn't 231 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: anybody that I know. But but and we don't really 232 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: have a we have ties down there still, but you know, 233 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: we don't have like family farms or anything. But But anyway, now, 234 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: so I'm I'm always interested in people that have deeper 235 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: connections around here, and I think part of mine is 236 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: UH in Newton County, my grandparents owned the store. And 237 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: actually there's a lot of a lot of people in 238 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: my family owned stores. UH. In Mountain Judy, little Mountain Judy. 239 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: I had two great ants that owned stores who knew 240 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: there would be two stores in Mount Judy. And then 241 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: my my grandparents Devote and Lois Uh they owned uh 242 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: Saints Grocery on Highway seven between and Jasper, actually Learning 243 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: Cal if you want to be more specific. And then 244 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: my uncle Dennis owns it now it's who'd thought it? 245 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: Gift shops. If you go, if you ever go up 246 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: Highway seven, Newton County, that's uh, there's a little still there. 247 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: The others a little white house behind the store that 248 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: that's where my my dad grew up. Um and because 249 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: I think because my my family owned businesses, and and 250 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: again looks at the Heafley side, they were everywhere. I 251 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: have name recognition Newton, Newton County. And also man, people 252 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: I look a lot like my dad. And uh, I've 253 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: been at the upfest in Jasper and I've had people 254 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: from across the town square say, hey, you're Johnny's boy, 255 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: your grandson, and they've never met me. Uh they could 256 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: tell yeah, uh and uh so and again for never 257 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: living there, I have a lot of connections and a 258 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: lot of I really feel at home there. Yeah that's neat. Yeah, 259 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: that's neat. Roots are it seems to be lost in 260 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: a lot of our culture today, but it's neat. Uh 261 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: talk to me about Ozark culture. I don't know, give 262 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: me a or so, so you're cultural observer or what's 263 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: your interest in in this part of the world. I 264 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: really it started one to understand why I'm the way 265 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: I am, which I think, you know, being introspective is 266 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: probably the gateway to a lot of education and seeking knowledge. UM. 267 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: But I wanted to understand more the way I was. 268 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: And uh, really when this hit, I went back to 269 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: college when I was forty years old. There's my degree, 270 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: and I had to take an anthropology class, and uh 271 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: that's probably where it started. And and then that led 272 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: to um again, more more curiosity about about why we 273 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: why I'm the way I am, why this place is 274 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: the way it is, you know, culturally, um. And so 275 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: I started digging, you know, in the roots of our culture, 276 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: which is a probably for most a lot of Southern 277 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: culture and especially Southern Mountain culture, and the appalations and 278 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: of those arts that Scott's Irish culture, you know. And 279 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: you just said, your your grandpa, your your answers coming 280 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: from Scotland, you know, mind minded too for sure on 281 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: my mom's side. It gets a little hazy on my 282 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: dad's but but they were Scott's Irish and that's the 283 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: basis of all this culture. It's it's it's. Uh. There's 284 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: a book I read, um one one section of a book. 285 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 1: There's a book called albionce Seed and it's about seven 286 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: I believe it's seven different English or or British cultures 287 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: that came over here to the US. And and one 288 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: of one section of that book is about this gots 289 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: Irish cultures called border or back border lands to the 290 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: back country. And there it was basically a collection of 291 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: observed observances from other folks about what they experienced in 292 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: in uh, the United States, in these areas that were 293 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: populated by Scotch Scott's Irish people. And what I found 294 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: really interesting and and was that a lot of the 295 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: behavior they saw and recorded I could actually see today. Example, 296 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: well examples what you and I are wearing. We're sitting here. 297 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: We both got beards, were in flannel shirts. I didn't 298 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: even think about it. We're basically based. Yeah, we're based. 299 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: Only we both got on boots. You got on more 300 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: Western style boots, but I've got on more hiking boots. UM. 301 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: That style of clothing came over uh, wider, wider brimmed hats. Uh. 302 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: The the way women dress. UM. A lot of our food. 303 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: A lot of our drink. Course, whiskey is a big one. 304 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: They came over from Scotland and Ireland over to here 305 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: and then I mean kind of an episode of making 306 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: whiskey would be Tennessee, so that's right, that's right, and 307 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, and an illegal whiskey moonshine, that's of course 308 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: legend and all through appellation in those arcs um so 309 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: a lot of that is still presidents. There's our attitudes, uh, 310 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: you know, attitudes about animals, about environmental issues. Most Scots 311 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: Irish culture or Scots Irish culture is mostly utilitarian. Uh. 312 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: It's based on, you know, largely that that population was 313 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: poor and you didn't really think about the ethics or 314 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: the ye you were doing this when you went out 315 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: to kill an animal to eat. You didn't really worry about, 316 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, especially when you saw endless trees, about how 317 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: much you cut the build or to to eat your 318 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: home because you didn't have any other options. This is 319 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: where we are. Poverty produces a certain mentality that excludes 320 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: a lot of other considerations does and you don't you 321 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: don't think very far into the future because your existence 322 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: is day to day. Uh. I feel that right now 323 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: Johnny I do too often. Uh. So you know, yeah, 324 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: that's that's carries over um and so yeah, I wanted 325 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: to explore why we you know, why why is this way? 326 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: Why is that way? And this is where it led. 327 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: Um a lot of there's a lot of good in 328 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: the culture, or a lot let me say, there's a 329 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: lot that I'm proud of in the culture. Uh, and 330 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: then there's a lot of bad. There's a lot of 331 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: stuff that we need to maybe think, you know, maybe 332 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: we need to do this differently now that we know more, 333 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: um and actually understanding our culture is you know, I 334 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: said something earlier about being a critic of the culture. 335 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: That's what allowed me to be a critic. And I 336 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: don't mean that necessarily looking for all the bad things. 337 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: What I mean is analyzing the culture, you know, uh, 338 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: and and parting it out and decide, you know, these 339 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: are things that that were really great and these are 340 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: things that are not so great. Maybe we need to read, 341 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: you know, take another look at these things and why 342 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: we're doing them. Yeah. You know, introspection does that because 343 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: we are handed a whole playbook of how to be 344 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: humans by default. I mean, that's that is the order 345 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: of the planet is that you are. You are handed 346 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: a playbook of how to be a human by default, 347 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: and you don't know any different, no less unless you 348 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: look outside of that and try to find a different 349 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: pattern or exactly right, take different patterns from other places. UM. 350 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: And and that, um, you know, and I've often wondered 351 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: why more people don't do that. Um. It's it's really 352 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: uncomfortable lots of times because you have to confront some 353 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: things that again maybe maybe aren't really good. Um, you 354 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: have to accept them. You know, this is the way 355 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: we did things and that wasn't the right way to 356 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: do things. And you know, the list is long. We 357 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: could fill up a day talking about all the stuff 358 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: we we thought was okay back you know, hundreds of 359 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: years ago and it's not now. Um. But come to 360 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: terms with that, you know, realizing, yeah, that we need 361 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: to change this or I'm glad we changed this, and 362 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: and and not everything is was as rosy maybe as 363 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: it was portrayed to us. Uh, not everything was. It 364 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: was good for us. Do you think we that utilitarian 365 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:46,719 Speaker 1: ideology of environment and wildlife that certainly was here and 366 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: I mean it was all over North America. I mean 367 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: this idea that we had like this vast, endless resources 368 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: of wildlife that we could just use it our discretion. 369 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: Like we've we've come a long way from that, but 370 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: we probably still have some of that. We do have that, um, 371 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: we still you know, and it's hard to get into 372 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: a lot of that. A lot of the attitude comes 373 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: from a dominion mindset, and that was that came down 374 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: from Europe, of course, and it clashed with with almost 375 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: every indigenous culture mindset described to me. Dominion mindset. Dominion 376 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: mindset is UM, well, it's it comes from Genesis. Gis 377 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: when when you always said, you know, all this is 378 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: for you and you use it how you want to. 379 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: And that could be interpreted different ways. You know, people 380 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: deterpret some people interpreted as being stewards and that you know, 381 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: we use it, yeah, but we're responsible for we're responsible 382 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: for the well being of this place. And and some 383 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 1: people to have the attitude that you know, I can 384 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: just take what I want because it was given to 385 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: me with no regard to um really anything else. And 386 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: and again you know, I don't want to UM, I 387 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: don't want to say that that there's nuance involved, Like 388 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: we just talked about with with poor people. Poor folks man, 389 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: you don't you don't really have need or you can't 390 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: afford to contemplate. You know again, why you're doing this 391 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: or why you're doing that. You gotta eat, you gotta 392 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: stay warm, yes, stay clothes. You gotta keep shelter going 393 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: or keep shelter up. Um. So there's not a you know, 394 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: you don't have that luxury, and I'm well aware of 395 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: that now. Nowadays, for the most part, most of us, 396 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: we do have that luxury. You know, what we take 397 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: from from the nature. We we can think about. We 398 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: can be thoughtful in our in our choice is in 399 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: our uses. But those old ways, those older utility in 400 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: ways that were born out of necessity, are hard to shake. Yes, 401 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: they're really hard to shake. There's I want to talk 402 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: about modern outdoor media with you. There's some things though 403 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: about the modern narrative inside of hunting that are positive. 404 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: And let me let me I'm making a point here. 405 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: I was talking to somebody recently that was a hunter, 406 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: longtime hunter, almost zero influence from outdoor modern outdoor media. Um. 407 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: That came along with some good stuff, but also came 408 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: along with some stuff that I felt like they weren't 409 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: totally updated on you know, just the whole idea of 410 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: being selective inside of hunting, the whole idea of being uh, 411 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, having a conservation mind frame, like what's what's 412 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: the best animal to take out for what? For whatever 413 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: the management purposes were for the region, Like what would 414 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: be the best animal for me to take out? And 415 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna set my sights on taking out that animal 416 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: and not something else. Um, you know, kind of just 417 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: like moving away from like the brown is down philosophy 418 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: for alive hunting and um, the it was like I 419 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: saw some holes kind of in the philosophy. And uh. Anyway, 420 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: that being said, somebody that was being influence about your 421 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: media today could take some of the good stuff and 422 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: it be totally translated in something negative. Um and and 423 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: uh anyway, just talking about the old philosophies, this utilitarian 424 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: use of the landscape US, I'm trying to decide where 425 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: where the changes need to become. Where it was good 426 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: and where it was bad, and where we're at today. 427 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: It is starting point again a lot of these discussions, 428 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: there's so much nu once it's hard to you know, 429 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: it's not black and white, and it's not a their 430 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: their caveats everywhere. UM, you know, speaking frankly, I'm I'm 431 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 1: closer to a brown as down guy than I am 432 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: a management trophy hunter. I don't. Years ago I started 433 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: going down the you know, mature white tail bucks only, 434 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: which is tough to do on publicly and in Arkansas. UM, 435 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: start going down that road a little bit, and there 436 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: were aspects of that that I just weren't really palatable 437 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: to me. UM. I think probably the final straw I 438 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: can and I killed a couple on that quest and 439 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: in consecutive years. UM. But the final straw was I 440 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: watched a guy that I knew pretty well throw a 441 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: hissy fit at the Big Butt Classic because his deer 442 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: didn't measure out like he thought it should. Yeah, and man, 443 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: and you know, I don't want to say that I'm 444 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: gonna say that was the straw that broke the camel's back. 445 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: There was a lot of other stuff building up to that. 446 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: But you know, I don't know if this is the 447 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: right mindset for hunting. And so you know now, and 448 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: this ties into all other things in my worldview. Uh, 449 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, we live on Venison, my family does. UM. 450 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: We because of my my thoughts and attitude about animals 451 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: in general. Um, I'm not real crazy about buying industrial, 452 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: industrial farm meat. I don't. I don't buy meat from 453 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: the grocery store. Um. We we live on veneze and 454 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: we live on squirrel. We buy some pork and some 455 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: other meat from people that raise them the right way. Um. 456 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: And so my attitude when I go hunting is number one, 457 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: as I want to feel the freezer. Um. But I 458 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: approached that not in a so much as this is 459 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: mine to take. Is that? Uh? And again it's it's 460 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: hard to put all this why I'm wrong for hunting 461 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: the way I do, because I'm I'm dueplus this sometimes 462 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: well i'm too, and I wrestle with all this. I 463 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: understand that you know where we are today with with 464 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: human population and development. You know, we we do have 465 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: to manage your herds. We do have to manage animal 466 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: herds and our animal populations. But at the same time, 467 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: it almost feels um again, searching for the right words 468 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: is tough. It feels like we're getting away from hunting, 469 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: that the hunting that made us human, which was utilitarian. Yes, 470 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, um, so you know and what we're doing now. 471 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: And I wrote this, you know, I had a discussion 472 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: I think online about an article I wrote where this 473 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: was in there. What we're doing now with hunting, really 474 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: modern day hunting isn't isn't homage through what we were. 475 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: We're trying to we're trying to capture some of that. 476 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: We're trying to get homage. It means like a um 477 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: like a like a partial representation. We're paying tribute to it, 478 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: Like we're like, you know, this is something, this is 479 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,959 Speaker 1: who we were, this is where we came from. And 480 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: and these uh, these roots that go back all these eons, 481 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: you know, are still producing um, you know, they're still 482 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: leafing out on us all this stuff that that we were, 483 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: and so we want to try to capture some of that. 484 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: It's kind of like a hat tiptoe. It is. It is. 485 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: It is recognition probably is the best way to say 486 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: H O M A G E. I mean a couple 487 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: check that. I don't have a spell checking um, but 488 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: it's it's, yeah, like I had tip like a recognition 489 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: that this is where we come from. And so when 490 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: you start throwing these other these other things into the 491 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: size of an animal or management, yes, you're getting away 492 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: from that little bit. And again I recognize the need. 493 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: At the same time, it feels the end almost contrived. 494 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: It feels like we're we're trying to trying to give 495 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: ourselves justification for doing this stuff, and we don't really 496 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: need it. Yeah, because this is what we do. Yeah. 497 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: Um so, man, we've gone all the way around year. 498 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: I forgot where we started. Now we were talking about 499 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: you were telling me about because I used the phrase 500 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: brown is down in almost a negative sense, and you 501 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: know what I've had, Uh, I've had. You know, I'm 502 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: trying to say this simply. I some people have given 503 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: me some flak for talking too much about being selective 504 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: inside of honey, and I'm and I'm mainly talking about 505 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: black bear when I went about selection, and that's that's 506 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: completely different. It's and and that's that's the point I 507 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: was gonna make about deer hunting, even though I'm pretty 508 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: selective with some portion of my deer honey, Like we 509 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: go out and shoot dose and just have a blast, 510 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: and we do and we we do the same. We 511 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: we live off white tail, dear meat and uh, but 512 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to bucks, were selective. Just this last weekend, 513 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: I told my fourteen year old son and my eleven 514 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: year old son, I said, don't shoot spikes and forking horns. 515 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: I told that, and they passed. They my son passed 516 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: three legal bucks. This is a cw D zone so 517 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: we don't have antler restriction. And he passed three legal 518 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: bucks last weekend and hadn't killed a deer this year, 519 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: and I felt good about that. Now he had full 520 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: right to shoot a dough or just shoot a big buck. 521 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: So it was kind of like, uh, collection of those 522 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: two worlds, you know, because well, let me let me 523 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: stop you right there. You mentioned okay, so let me 524 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: ask you this, and I'm gonna challenge you here. If 525 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about you're in a cw D zone in 526 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: the Game of Fish wants you to kill these small bucks, 527 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't that be I mean, I'm just no, you're exactly right, 528 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: because the small bucks, the ones that are distributing, Yeah, 529 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: you're and I hadn't even thought about that. And see, 530 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: and that's where all of us, I think, have have 531 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: this hypocrisy because I'm talking about I mean, when I'm 532 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: when I'm being selected on bucks, I'm doing it for 533 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: one reason because we want to kill a big buck. 534 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: And I guess I'm just okay, with that. Well, but 535 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that. I haven't killed, but it's 536 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: just something to think about. And you know, I'm I'm 537 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: not really selective actually, you know, the first I need, 538 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: we need four deer to feed us. If we get 539 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: four deer, that's even if they're all four does, that's 540 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: roughly a hundred sixty pounds of venison to get us through. 541 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: And that's what I need to feed right now, right now, 542 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: mostly my wife and my and me. That hert home 543 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: most time. The youngest stars eighteen, so she she sometimes 544 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: he's dealing with us, sometimes not. But we need four dos. 545 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: And so the first three deer that come by, I'm 546 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, not not fauns because they don't we haven'tough meat. 547 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: But the first three deer that come by, I'm probably 548 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: gonna try to put him in the freezer. Uh. After that, 549 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: if one of them, especially if one of them is 550 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 1: a buck, I'm gonna be a little more selective, mostly 551 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: because I want to extend my season. I don't want 552 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: to quit. Y Um. I'm not gonna sit here and 553 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: tell you I don't like big anglers. I mean I do. Uh. 554 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: I had not killed a um an older class buck 555 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: and when I say older on publicly and I'm talking 556 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: three years older. Um, I hadn't done that in a 557 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: few years, and this year I was lucky to kill 558 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: one in the national fourth It was about three and 559 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: a half years old. It's even a different little bit 560 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: different playing field though we're hunting here in Washington County 561 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: private land, which that's different. It really is. Man. I 562 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: mean I could any afternoon we can go out and 563 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: see dear and and probably kill a deer if we 564 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: wanted to. I mean that the hunting is the deer 565 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: populations of that high so we feel a little bit 566 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: more liberty to be select different now hunting and Ozark 567 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,959 Speaker 1: National forests, like you're doing just to kill a deer 568 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: as a big gume is it's a it's a challenge 569 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: and to kill to kill three and a half year 570 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: old buck. Uh oh. It's so if that was if 571 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: that was all the name that I was doing, my 572 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: world would be different. Well you know what I mean. 573 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: That may be the biggest difference in our philosophies about them, 574 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: because almost all of my hunting is done on public land. Yeah, 575 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: and a large part of it is in those are 576 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: national forests, and some of it over is over the 577 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: Haull of Bying National Wilife Refuge. And see again, I'm 578 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: I live in multiple worlds at the same time. When 579 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: we hunt private land here in Washington County, we're pretty 580 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: during selective also hunting Washington National Forest down there, and 581 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: I've been trying to kill just a buck for the 582 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: last three seasons, pretty hard and heavy, and I did 583 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: pass one that I wish I hadn't. But oh man, 584 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 1: it's a different world down there, and it means a hold. 585 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: If I if I killed a mature buck down there 586 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: where I'm hunting, it would mean more to me than 587 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: all these private land deer from I really would. Yeah, 588 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: I understand there's a there's a correlation. There's a relationship 589 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: there between the effort, uh in the in the degree 590 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: of difficulty, Yeah, but in in the and the feelings 591 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: of satisfaction. I can get that completely. Well. This is 592 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: a great example of how a part of what is 593 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: the difficulty of hunting, and probably of every other human 594 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: endeavor where people are gathered together around a passion and activity, 595 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: is that you're playing on a different field in the 596 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: Ozark National Forests than the guy in Southeast Kansas and 597 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: and and but but we're trying to have the same conversation, yes, 598 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: and so it's it's hard for completely different perspectives, you know. 599 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,280 Speaker 1: And I have limitations not only don't hunt publicly and 600 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm not saying my way is the best way when 601 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: he's doing, but I have pretty principled limitations on how 602 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: I hunt. I don't use a camera, I don't use 603 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: any kind of bait, I don't use any sense. Uh, 604 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: I have a cover since smells a little bit like 605 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 1: quite okaycran that's that's that's the only thing I use. 606 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: And uh, I hunt a bow hunt, I haven't and 607 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: I haven't gun hunted twenty five years. Well, well, to 608 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: give you I've I've been bow hunting. I've been hunting 609 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: since I was a kid. I've killed one deer with 610 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: a rifle, and I've killed probably and I'm not not bragging. 611 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,879 Speaker 1: Just give you an idea where I'm coming from. Uh, 612 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: And it against over thirty thirty years. Like I've killed 613 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: a hundred and some odd deer with a bow. Well 614 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,720 Speaker 1: not all of them, some of them been on privately, 615 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 1: and but only bow hunt. I try to limit my shots. 616 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: Years ago, I tried to go down what you're doing 617 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: now with stickbo I just just wasn't wasn't to the 618 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: level of accuracy that I thought I needed to be. 619 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: I end up killing one dough with stick bow, and 620 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: then I sucked. Man, I'm I'm just not there. But 621 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: and again, kind of paying homage to that spirit, I 622 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: limit my shots to twenty five yards with the compound. Um. 623 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: And so I've got these stipulations. Uh, you know already 624 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: sitting in the degree of difficulty is pretty high. Um. 625 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: And so when I get a deer within twenty five 626 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: yards broadside doing it that way, you know, I don't know. Ye, Yeah, 627 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: I'm probably and I didn't Yeah, I mean I knew 628 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: you did bow hunt. Yeah, I didn't know that you 629 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,399 Speaker 1: were exclusive killed to kill four deer with the bow 630 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: on public land and those are national forests. That's a 631 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: that's a big season, it is, that's a that's a 632 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 1: lot of takes. You don't just go out and see 633 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: deer probably even every time. No, I don't. Um, you 634 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: know there there are a lot of deer, but uh, 635 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: figuring out exactly where they're gonna come through again twenty 636 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: five yards from you. Uh, Now, you don't see deer 637 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: every time, you don't see large numbers of deer. Uh, 638 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, it's a totally different. And again, I've 639 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: hunted privately, and I was on lease for a few years, 640 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: and you know it was nothing there to set on 641 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: food plot and see fifteen deer and and uh, pretty 642 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: much every any evening you wanted to. Uh no, that's 643 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: not the way it is now. I keep a journal, 644 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: and I think I had look right quick. But I 645 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: think a hundred fund of nineteen times this year and 646 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 1: I've seen twenty nine deer and that's just what I've seen. 647 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:39,919 Speaker 1: And uh, let's see twenty nine deer. And I've had 648 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: with deer within thirty yards of me. I've had eleven 649 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: does and eight bucks and I tagged out, Uh killed 650 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: my sixth there two days ago. Did you really so? 651 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm done, which I'm a little sad about. 652 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: For real, I see I was. I was thinking you 653 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: were you were gun hunting a lot. That's that's doing something, man, 654 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 1: did I haven't done that again. It's probably been twenty 655 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,840 Speaker 1: five years. I'll be done. That's awesome. And that was 656 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: actually the deer I killed gun un was it Devil's Dan? 657 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: I was with my father in law here, Yeah, not 658 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 1: far from from Yeah, I'll be darn well. Um, let's 659 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: see homage. That's a new word. I like that. Um, 660 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,399 Speaker 1: you know, I guess in a way, I feel like 661 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: that the hunting space that I live in is is 662 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: exactly that. It's an homage. It's a hat tip to 663 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: what we were, but it's it's we've added some layers 664 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,240 Speaker 1: of complexity to it, almost like you know, we're sitting 665 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: here in a modern building with sheet rock and you know, 666 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 1: asphalt shingles, and it's like, yeah, we used to live 667 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: in huts made from buffalo so I don't know, I 668 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: don't know what they're made of. But I mean, wait, 669 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: we we used to live in primitive shelters. Well this 670 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: is this is a more complex shelter, you know. And 671 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: so like adding in this idea of you know, and 672 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: and the word trophy hunting is such a loaded word, 673 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: even though the roots of trophy hunting. That phrase came 674 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: from the Boone and Crockett Club in nine when they 675 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: were trying to take the emphasis off the young and females, 676 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: coming from a market hunting mentality of people that were 677 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,279 Speaker 1: killing deer and critters to make a living. You know, 678 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: they need the populations that they need healthy population. They 679 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: were trying to find a way. They were trying to 680 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: find a way to change the whole of the hunting culture. 681 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 1: And so they they put a quantitative value on antlers 682 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: and horns and they said, you know, and they in 683 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: in the way they did, you know, they were like, 684 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: this has value, and so they trophy hunting. Have you 685 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: ever heard it said that trophy hunting is actually what 686 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: saved North American wilde I have, and I agree with that. 687 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: It changed the mentality. It changed the mentality, took the 688 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: emphasosph females and young and put it on old age 689 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: class males. Which so it's almost like now there that's 690 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,760 Speaker 1: still and that has become polluted. Just like any human endeavor, 691 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: there's this original strain that was probably pretty pure and 692 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 1: then it, yeah, it can sprout off and turn into 693 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,759 Speaker 1: something terrible. I think that, and actually I think that 694 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: trophy hunting probably has roots way back um when we 695 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: did have to you know, hunt to live. I know, Um, 696 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,919 Speaker 1: I've read quite a bit about the sign people, which 697 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: uh may have hard and called the bush people Calahari 698 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 1: in Africa, one of the last hunter gatherer cultures still 699 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,399 Speaker 1: still going. Uh, and I'm not sure their status right now, 700 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: but um, I know there's a video on YouTube is 701 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,839 Speaker 1: probably one of my my favorite. I don't I don't 702 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 1: watch many hunting videos, but it's one of my favorite 703 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: where it shows, uh, some of those those men coudo 704 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,040 Speaker 1: and they actually chose that kudu with the biggest horns 705 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: because it was had the most mass body mass and 706 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,959 Speaker 1: it would tire the quickest they were in this sucker down. 707 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: I mean, they weren't sitting in the stand. They ran 708 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: it down, and that's why they chose it. Though it 709 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: was carrying more weight, it would overheat quicker. Do you 710 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: think that was just a justification for them with the 711 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: big horns. Don't they're not doing the same thing we're doing. No, 712 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: I don't think they cared at all about the horns. 713 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: Um Uh. But you know, so there's and then you 714 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: know there's that's interesting because I've never heard of roots 715 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,399 Speaker 1: of That's what I was about to ask you if 716 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: you knew in the literature of Native American tribes that 717 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: that gave precedence to big antler game. There's something there's 718 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 1: something very appealing about big antlers. Of course, so that, 719 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: but I don't know of anything that's quite as you know, 720 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: direct as that video I just told you about, um, 721 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, but also associated and it's still this way 722 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: of course. You know, there's a lot of um, there's 723 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,360 Speaker 1: a lot of ego attached to antler size um and 724 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: and there's some prestige when you bring that big European influence. 725 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: I think it's probably I think it's indigenous and it 726 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: started in indigenous cultures in Europe and Africa and probably 727 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: in North America. You know, typically animals that carry bigger 728 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,520 Speaker 1: headgear have more meat. That's more so it represented something 729 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 1: more than that because like big antlers would also be 730 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: connected to big meat. Yeah, big meat, and again all 731 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: this other stuff that's still part of it today. Uh 732 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: you know, you out smart and killed a wise animal 733 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: and older animal. I mean, you know, you know what meat. 734 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: Would a meat culture put value on on that or 735 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: would they just be happy they had meat? Probably? Yeah, probably, 736 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: but there's probably a little bit of both um there, 737 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, the relationship that those cultures had with the animals. 738 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: You know, they were meat of course, but then they 739 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: also viewed them. And again I'm not an expert, but 740 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: I think that largely the relationship was it was deeper 741 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: than than just the meat. Um, you know, there there 742 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: was more to it than that. And and they of 743 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: course they lived in and they had relationships with these 744 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,920 Speaker 1: animals that we can't understand because we don't have to 745 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: kill them to eat, we don't. Uh, you know, That's 746 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: part of what I'm trying to get back. It's the 747 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: foster that relationship with white tails. You know that the 748 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 1: indigenous you know, my ancestors back in Europe had with 749 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: red deer. Um. You know, this this relationship that um 750 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: is of course grateful and and you know it's it's 751 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: not totally sincere because I'm not dependent on the meat, 752 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 1: but I I want to be depended on the me man. 753 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: That's I've never really thought about it, but I really 754 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,839 Speaker 1: I want to stop you because that I like that 755 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,360 Speaker 1: idea that you want to regain the connection with the 756 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: animal that we hunt as if it was our whole sustenance, 757 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,760 Speaker 1: because like the Native American tribes that relied on buffalo 758 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,280 Speaker 1: like that would have informed the way that they viewed 759 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: that animal because it wasn't it wasn't a it was legitimate. 760 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,399 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't you couldn't fabricate what they had. 761 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 1: You couldn't fabricate it today. The depth of the relationship, Yeah, 762 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: it was. It was so much deeper than most people, 763 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,879 Speaker 1: you know. And I that's what I'm trying. But that's 764 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to reach. Um, what do you think 765 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,600 Speaker 1: that's what do you think the end goal of that is, Johnny? 766 00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: I mean, like, what is that? What does it look like? 767 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: Because well, that but that changes your whole attitude. And 768 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: I've noticed it to myself trying to get there. Uh, 769 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 1: it changes in my attitude about everything. It changes my 770 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: attitude about about the deer, specifically this specific deer that 771 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,879 Speaker 1: I killed. I have a different attitude about it now 772 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: than I did before. It's it's not just it's not 773 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,759 Speaker 1: just an animal I'm shooting. Um. It also changes my 774 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,759 Speaker 1: views about where I killed the deer. Now I have 775 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: a more holistic view of everything. You know, I understand that, uh, 776 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,720 Speaker 1: you know, this deer is a product of the forest, 777 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: and the forest is a product of these eons of 778 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: of time and and uh, I'm struggling here for the 779 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: right words. I wrote it. I wrote an essay called 780 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: blood brother Um last year that tried to put into 781 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: words how I felt about the deer. Um And actually, yeah, 782 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: you can read online is publishing Hatch magazine, which is 783 00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: a fly fishing magazine. But the church Smuggler, the editors 784 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: gives me some liberties on what I what I write 785 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,759 Speaker 1: for him. But I actually drew inspiration from a bear 786 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,680 Speaker 1: hunting story, uh in Arkansas called it's called the Big 787 00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,280 Speaker 1: Bear of Arkansas. Yeah, and the character is a fiction. 788 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,759 Speaker 1: But Jim Daggett, yeah, dog It, dog It, dog it 789 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 1: because he was he's a hunter. Dogged. You know, that's 790 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: I think where he got it. Yeah, dog it. Uh. 791 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 1: But anyway, the fictional character dog It said that this 792 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,880 Speaker 1: bear he was pursuing, which was a legend, that he 793 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,399 Speaker 1: loved the bear like a brother. Yes, and or else 794 00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,640 Speaker 1: is with that? You know what does that mean? Um? 795 00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:41,560 Speaker 1: He said that while the dogs, that wasn't he watching 796 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: the dogs chase this bear? And he said, I saw 797 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,560 Speaker 1: him running up the mountain. Then I loved him like 798 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: a brother. I mean it was like in the heat. 799 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't like after he killed it. No, it was 800 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: in the heat of the pursuit. It was in the 801 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,760 Speaker 1: pursuit that he came to this. You know, I've forgotten 802 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: about that, and that that struck a chord me and 803 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: and I'm glad. Yeah he said he loved him like 804 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 1: a brother, and so you know, but wrapped up in 805 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:13,239 Speaker 1: all those you know, sometimes uncomfortable emotions. Um, you know, 806 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,400 Speaker 1: and most men especially have a hard time saying they 807 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 1: love anything. But you know, my feelings about the white 808 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:27,920 Speaker 1: tail white tailed deer we're strong already. But through this, 809 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, again contrived dependence because I don't want to 810 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 1: eat any other meat. Um, it's created a deeper again, 811 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 1: I'll tell you. And I'm stumbling for words. Um, if 812 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,680 Speaker 1: you were writing it easier, yeah, well I'd have to 813 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: write a bunch of stuff and go back and edit 814 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: it and come up with these new thoughts. Have time, 815 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: just Um, it's harder for me, put on the spot 816 00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,880 Speaker 1: to come up with the words because it's such a 817 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:03,440 Speaker 1: complex subject. I think what you're describing, though, is the 818 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:08,600 Speaker 1: thing that we see kind of, we see a shadow 819 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: of it inside of this just general idea of respect 820 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: for the game that we we hardly except I recognize 821 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: that what you're saying, I think is probably deeper. I 822 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,440 Speaker 1: think sometimes you know, in outdoor media, we've we've heard 823 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,839 Speaker 1: that word so much that maybe we think that just 824 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,880 Speaker 1: means when you kill an animal, just look at it 825 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 1: and touch it and say, well, I really respect this 826 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,359 Speaker 1: and think it's beautiful, and I am grateful for the meat. 827 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, it just kind of it's become a 828 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: little hollow, yeah, because people have overused it. Uh, but 829 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:46,880 Speaker 1: it means it doesn't mean more than that, you know, 830 00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: not just And I'm thinking against speculating because I can't 831 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 1: get in the mind of hunter gatherer culture, but I 832 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: can't have a hard time believing that believing that this, 833 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,400 Speaker 1: that this didn't what didn't happen times when when someone 834 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: killed an animal was not only was there the realization, 835 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 1: of course that this is meat that's gonna feed us, 836 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:15,400 Speaker 1: but also a sense of kinship, uh, in the in 837 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: the sense that you know my mortality. I'm mortal. I'm 838 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: gonna die on these days too, just like this deer died. 839 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 1: May not the same manner, but but it's a confrontation 840 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 1: of your own mortality. What do you think it would 841 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: look like when you reached a place of satisfaction about 842 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:38,759 Speaker 1: that sensing? I don't know that I ever will you know? 843 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: In in that essay I wrote about you know, gutting 844 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,920 Speaker 1: the deer and you know, looking at all the internal 845 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: organs and realizing that they're the same things they're in me, 846 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,560 Speaker 1: the stomach, the intestines moving up on it, as in 847 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,080 Speaker 1: the heart and lungs. And I remember I pulled out 848 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,000 Speaker 1: his heart. It was a buck that I killed it 849 00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: I wrote about and I pulled out his heart, and 850 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, it was probably a little bigger than mine, 851 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: but probably and almost every other way it looked exactly 852 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:14,960 Speaker 1: the same as mine does. Um. And so this understanding 853 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: and acknowledgement, that's that's of of my place, um, as 854 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 1: not necessarily a human, but as an animal. That's kind 855 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 1: of what I'm looking for. Um And and again. And 856 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,360 Speaker 1: when you do that, and you you think about those connections, 857 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:40,040 Speaker 1: then it you often pause to confront your own mortality. Yeah, um, 858 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,359 Speaker 1: you know, I think that's probably one of the first 859 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,239 Speaker 1: things that led to a sense of spirituality. I think 860 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: the ideas, uh, I mean simple in some way, is 861 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:51,759 Speaker 1: that that you're you're you're looking for a deeper way 862 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: to connect to this thing that your your heart says 863 00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,880 Speaker 1: is really really highly valuable. You know, I think that 864 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,560 Speaker 1: inside of honey, A lot of times I look at 865 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,920 Speaker 1: the way that the passion that I have for hunting, 866 00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: and I recognize that my words, my actions, my thoughts, 867 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:17,120 Speaker 1: my media that I produce does not do justice to 868 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:22,160 Speaker 1: what is actually happened. That's exactly why I'm struggling with this. Well, 869 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,600 Speaker 1: I can't uh, And I guess this has probably been 870 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: the aim of a lot of writers is communicators. You know, 871 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,279 Speaker 1: how do you put all these emotions in these these uh, 872 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,319 Speaker 1: everything that's that's encapsulated in that moment, you know, when 873 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 1: you release the arrow, pull the trigger, and how do 874 00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 1: you put all that into words? How do you explain 875 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: that to people that that you know, even though they hunt, 876 00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:51,319 Speaker 1: maybe not see things the same way you do. Um, well, 877 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,239 Speaker 1: I think that's the thing that that we've got to 878 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:58,600 Speaker 1: just keep trying to do, is to is to explore 879 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: that and explain it. And I and I think it's 880 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:05,879 Speaker 1: maybe even simpler than than that, you know, we are 881 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: spiritual beings. I mean, it would hard. It would be 882 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,279 Speaker 1: hard for me to even hear someone you know, a 883 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:17,719 Speaker 1: complete atheists that just I mean didn't or maybe that's 884 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: not the right word. What what's the other word for 885 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:25,240 Speaker 1: someone who agnostics? You know, it would be hard for 886 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:30,040 Speaker 1: them to even biologically to me, explain how we wouldn't 887 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,160 Speaker 1: be a spiritual being, you know, Like and so to 888 00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:38,640 Speaker 1: me when we hunt, like what I'm chasing is uh 889 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,440 Speaker 1: is an explanation and an understanding of why this thing 890 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,439 Speaker 1: that I've done which ultimately roots back to my very 891 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,440 Speaker 1: primitive roots as a human, it roots back to my 892 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: family this very day, because like, hunting is ultimately provision 893 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,680 Speaker 1: for family, I mean, the human nature of I am 894 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,839 Speaker 1: going to go gather protein for my family so they 895 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:11,120 Speaker 1: can live. Even though that's a physical act. Yeah, I 896 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,520 Speaker 1: think it's. I think it it captures something. It's also 897 00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,120 Speaker 1: a spiritual act. It's it's the basis I mean, and 898 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,520 Speaker 1: that's why it's hard to describe it is. And hunting was, 899 00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, it was the basis of all culture. It 900 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,880 Speaker 1: really was. How we how we get our food is 901 00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,160 Speaker 1: the is the foundation of all culture. And you can 902 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,440 Speaker 1: go you know, of course now we're with globalization, you 903 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,400 Speaker 1: can find you know, we can find Cajun food up 904 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 1: here Arkansas. But Louisiana is one of my favorite examples 905 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: that entire culture was built, you know, on the food 906 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:46,239 Speaker 1: which came from the marsh. Yeah, culture, I like what 907 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:50,080 Speaker 1: you said culture is built upon how we acquire food, 908 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,799 Speaker 1: is uh, you know, go back even further. That's you know, 909 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,919 Speaker 1: and then then the type of food that we eat 910 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,839 Speaker 1: is built from the physical environment that we live in. 911 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:07,400 Speaker 1: So the region, the mountains, it's all. It's all encompassed 912 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,799 Speaker 1: really in the phrase a sense of place, A sense 913 00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,120 Speaker 1: of place. Yeah, And I can't remember who said that first. 914 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was Leopold Um, maybe Wendleberry, 915 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,520 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but anyway, yeah, having a sense of 916 00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 1: place and and that that ties into you know, my 917 00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:29,480 Speaker 1: hunting to I don't anywhere except pretty much the River Valley, 918 00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,560 Speaker 1: and I was, I was like mountains. Yeah, there's something 919 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:39,600 Speaker 1: about um killing and eating these deer that are from 920 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,760 Speaker 1: the same place I am. UM. I don't know why 921 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:45,840 Speaker 1: it is. I've I've traveled out of state once or 922 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,040 Speaker 1: twice for deer, and I used to travel quite a 923 00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:53,160 Speaker 1: bit for turkeys. Um. But there's something about um again, 924 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: these these animals that that are from my home that 925 00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,840 Speaker 1: there seems to be you're the same way. You know, 926 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: you said almost all these deer in here from Arkansas. UM. 927 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: I don't know why that is. You know, I've said 928 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,240 Speaker 1: that a lot people that listen to this podcast would 929 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 1: know it is that I put way more value on 930 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 1: a locally hunted animal than anything I travel, and I 931 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,440 Speaker 1: travel a lot. I did. My My job has allowed 932 00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,000 Speaker 1: me to travel to hunt bears and travel to hunt 933 00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,160 Speaker 1: some deer and uh man, I killed a deer in 934 00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:33,480 Speaker 1: Canada three weeks ago, big deer. I would trade that 935 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:38,400 Speaker 1: Canada deer for a hundred and thirty in Arkansas white 936 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,880 Speaker 1: tail buck down in the National forest where I hunt. 937 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,600 Speaker 1: I promise you I'm not just saying that I would. 938 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,960 Speaker 1: I would throw that deer in the trash if I 939 00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 1: knew I could go down there and kill one in 940 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,440 Speaker 1: its place. I understand that that has right in my 941 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,000 Speaker 1: and I know exactly where I got that from. My 942 00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: dad intentionally built that inn us, I think as a 943 00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: mechanism to calibrate me and probably himself for seeing a 944 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,840 Speaker 1: lot of guys in the late eighties and early nineties 945 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,760 Speaker 1: start to travel to hunt. That's kind of when whitetail 946 00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,840 Speaker 1: hunting kind of became really pretty commercialized in the Midwest 947 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,280 Speaker 1: became famous and hunting Canada, and guys started traveling, and 948 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,040 Speaker 1: guy started and they were doing it before, but it 949 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:24,560 Speaker 1: was like the economic status of the US was pretty 950 00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,040 Speaker 1: good in the eighties and nineties, and people started to 951 00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:28,960 Speaker 1: have a little bit of money and could travel, and 952 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,960 Speaker 1: and we started getting hunting magazines and hunting movies. And 953 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:37,440 Speaker 1: I think he saw that and was like this what 954 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,800 Speaker 1: we're doing is, well, what are you chasing when you're 955 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:42,880 Speaker 1: going out out to these places to do it? What 956 00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: are you actually looking for? I mean, why did you 957 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,400 Speaker 1: go out of state hunt? Are you asking me for 958 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,240 Speaker 1: the experience? I can and I can understand that, and 959 00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,280 Speaker 1: and I mean and then absolutely to bring home a 960 00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,280 Speaker 1: good animal. I mean, and and that's a place where 961 01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:06,439 Speaker 1: I I voluntarily say there's probably some hypocrisy. There's two 962 01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,120 Speaker 1: places that I would reside because I would reside in 963 01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:12,520 Speaker 1: this like local hunter that values being able to kill 964 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:16,600 Speaker 1: deer within a mile in my house. But then also, yeah, 965 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 1: I'll go to Canada and shooter deer meat home. I 966 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:23,000 Speaker 1: understand that's I went to Illinois and I didn't kill 967 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,040 Speaker 1: a big deer, but I killed a nice deer in Illinois, 968 01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:27,640 Speaker 1: and I went there because I wanted the big antlers. 969 01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,680 Speaker 1: You know that that was years ago, But now I 970 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,320 Speaker 1: think about that, and you'd have trouble with that, I 971 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,440 Speaker 1: just wouldn't do it. I couldn't know the I've considered 972 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:40,800 Speaker 1: the turkeys again because there's just not really in turkey's 973 01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:45,520 Speaker 1: in Arkansas anymore. But still I would rather spend two 974 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,720 Speaker 1: weeks chasing the gobbler, the national force that I might 975 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:50,240 Speaker 1: never get a shot at as I had to go 976 01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,160 Speaker 1: to Kansas and kill one in the first day. And 977 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, going to Kansas, when I would go, it 978 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,120 Speaker 1: was like a video game. You know, there were turkeys 979 01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:02,160 Speaker 1: everywhere in that time. They weren't missed with nobody knew 980 01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:05,360 Speaker 1: how to hunt them up there. But there's there's something 981 01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 1: not only the challenge, you know, but but again that 982 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,880 Speaker 1: that sense of place. I think, you know, yeah, there's 983 01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,920 Speaker 1: a connectivity between me and the turkey, or me and 984 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,880 Speaker 1: the deer, just because we're both from here. And that 985 01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,200 Speaker 1: is the one thing that you lose when you travel 986 01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,680 Speaker 1: to hunt is a is a sense of place. Like 987 01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,880 Speaker 1: what what I think you're getting value from by hunting 988 01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,760 Speaker 1: locally is that man, I've been here in my whole life. 989 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,520 Speaker 1: I know these mountains, I know these deer, I know 990 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,280 Speaker 1: what kind of trees these are. It's a practical application, yes, 991 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,080 Speaker 1: because you're a much more effective. Well what I'm saying, 992 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm even talking about it from like a philosophical standpoint, 993 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,280 Speaker 1: Like you know how these mountains were formed, you know 994 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,600 Speaker 1: where this creek runs to, you know what kind of 995 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:56,240 Speaker 1: other animals are, Like you have you have you, you 996 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,640 Speaker 1: have a place there, you have a holistic sense. And 997 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,360 Speaker 1: then you go to Canada and man, this is where 998 01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,800 Speaker 1: traveling to hunt does. If you bring that same value system, 999 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:08,960 Speaker 1: does seem hollow? And it does to me. I mean 1000 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,720 Speaker 1: I was up in Canada and I'm like a transplant 1001 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,720 Speaker 1: for one week to go up there and hunt, and 1002 01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,480 Speaker 1: it's that that hunt doesn't have the same value to 1003 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,480 Speaker 1: me as this one does. Do you do any of 1004 01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,120 Speaker 1: your own scouting up there or there? You just go 1005 01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,960 Speaker 1: sit where they tell you sit. You know, I've been 1006 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,000 Speaker 1: up there at three times with the same guy, so 1007 01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 1: I know it's farm and it's a pretty I mean 1008 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,400 Speaker 1: it's it's an outfitted hunt for sure. I mean it's 1009 01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,880 Speaker 1: got to be legally, but I forgot about that. But 1010 01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:38,520 Speaker 1: we it's it's more of a deal where you're going 1011 01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,200 Speaker 1: to this guy's farm and hunting kind of where you 1012 01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,880 Speaker 1: want to. But absolutely we're hunting in places that he 1013 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:48,200 Speaker 1: would have shown us. And so yeah, and it's it's 1014 01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 1: it is a homage two. I mean, it's a it's 1015 01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:57,400 Speaker 1: a hat tip to to something that was because it's 1016 01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,440 Speaker 1: not we're we're we're we're trying to you a big 1017 01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,080 Speaker 1: deer and bring home, you know, a bunch of meat 1018 01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,880 Speaker 1: because those dear big Yeah, those are monsters up there. 1019 01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:13,440 Speaker 1: But now I I absolutely recognized that it's not the same. No, 1020 01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:18,400 Speaker 1: And it's again I struggle for anything outside of that 1021 01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:23,400 Speaker 1: that very um vague statements since the place. I mean, 1022 01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, for why I feel that way, But but 1023 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,080 Speaker 1: I don't I do with all mountdoor pursuits. I want 1024 01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,000 Speaker 1: to I want to fish for small mouth locally, you know, 1025 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,760 Speaker 1: I don't want to travel very far to do that. Um. 1026 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:38,560 Speaker 1: That's the only that's the only reason I can come 1027 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:44,400 Speaker 1: up with it. And again, trying to define that it's tough. Um, 1028 01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,240 Speaker 1: it's just as tough as defining why I set these 1029 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,080 Speaker 1: parameters with the way I want to kill deer and 1030 01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to do another way. You know, searching 1031 01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 1: for this is that? Does that make it wrong? Though? 1032 01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,960 Speaker 1: I don't think so? Yeah, I don't, and I don't. 1033 01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:59,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to say that it's you know, wrong 1034 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 1: for anyone else to go out of state and kill 1035 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,800 Speaker 1: deer or go fish or whatever. I like adventure too, 1036 01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,120 Speaker 1: you know what, what what would a guy need to 1037 01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:12,240 Speaker 1: do to calibrate himself though, because I think what we're 1038 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:15,680 Speaker 1: talking about, in essence is what could be wrong with 1039 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,560 Speaker 1: some portion of the hunting world is that we're chasing antlers, 1040 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:25,200 Speaker 1: were chasing ego, we're chasing I think, um, you know 1041 01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:29,960 Speaker 1: talking to Actually, I think this for pretty much everything. Uh, 1042 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:35,320 Speaker 1: lack of thoughtful thoughtfulness is probably the root of all 1043 01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,280 Speaker 1: seeing lack of thought on. Yeah, I see what you're saying. 1044 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,880 Speaker 1: If if you're not considering why you're doing this, if 1045 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:49,200 Speaker 1: you're not um, concerned with your motives, you know, questioning um. 1046 01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,160 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying you need to be you know, 1047 01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,080 Speaker 1: justifying or or trying to find bad you know, nitpicking 1048 01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:57,040 Speaker 1: like that. I'm saying that, Just ask yourself why am 1049 01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:01,400 Speaker 1: I doing that? Because I have no misconceptions of what 1050 01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:03,720 Speaker 1: I'm doing when I go to Canada, you know, I 1051 01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,520 Speaker 1: like that honesty, you know again, and that's not something 1052 01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,440 Speaker 1: that I want to do. But if you're you know, 1053 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,120 Speaker 1: don't try to pay me this picture and sell me 1054 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:12,680 Speaker 1: on the idea that you're doing this for all these 1055 01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,400 Speaker 1: other reasons, you know, and I think that's that's actually 1056 01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,560 Speaker 1: one of the gonna go down another repertrail here. But uh, 1057 01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, one of the justifications I hear for hunting 1058 01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:25,160 Speaker 1: is we talked about earlier with population control. You know, 1059 01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how many people really hunt for that reason. 1060 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:32,920 Speaker 1: They throw it out there, you know, it's justification, but really, 1061 01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:35,880 Speaker 1: how many people go kill deer because they think it's doing, 1062 01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,439 Speaker 1: you know, helping the It's just an add on. It's 1063 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,960 Speaker 1: just a it's just a kind of a an add 1064 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:46,640 Speaker 1: on reason why we should. Yeah, it's not a bad thing, 1065 01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:52,480 Speaker 1: but but don't tell me that it's not not. Yeah, absolutely, um. 1066 01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:58,200 Speaker 1: So honesty, uh, sincerity, um, and again thinking about why 1067 01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:03,400 Speaker 1: you're doing these things. You know, I think that as 1068 01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:07,920 Speaker 1: as would be in most of life, having a having 1069 01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:13,920 Speaker 1: the right internal posture at least understanding your motivations and 1070 01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,560 Speaker 1: being honest about it is important. Isn't absolutely important? And 1071 01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:23,720 Speaker 1: so you know we're talking about we've been dancing around this, 1072 01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:25,680 Speaker 1: I think, but we haven't got two and it's something 1073 01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,480 Speaker 1: we said we want to talk about. Johnny, pull your 1074 01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,960 Speaker 1: mike just a little bit closer. It's something we've danced 1075 01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,040 Speaker 1: around a little bit, and you and I talked about 1076 01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:40,840 Speaker 1: talking about it. But you know, baiting, Yeah, um, we 1077 01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,439 Speaker 1: let's talk about what it's done in Arkansas for deer, 1078 01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:47,480 Speaker 1: and we're talking about deer. Yeah, yeah, because because bear 1079 01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:51,800 Speaker 1: hunting is totally different. Yeah, you know that's totally different 1080 01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,439 Speaker 1: than deer hunting. But but you and I have had 1081 01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:58,920 Speaker 1: some off mike discussions about about baiting deer and and uh, 1082 01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, the pros of course nowadays, is it gets 1083 01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:08,800 Speaker 1: more hunters out there. Um. I'm hard pressed to find 1084 01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:13,040 Speaker 1: other pros besides that. Um, there's a lot long list 1085 01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:17,440 Speaker 1: of cons um and you know, the top of the 1086 01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:21,840 Speaker 1: list for me is you know, losing that the whole 1087 01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,160 Speaker 1: sense of what hunting is about. Yeah, you know if 1088 01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:31,960 Speaker 1: and and uh, I don't understand. I've wrestled with this, 1089 01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:34,040 Speaker 1: you know, and I've hunted over Bay. I'm not coming 1090 01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,360 Speaker 1: at this from an elitist, you know, sure standing position. 1091 01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,960 Speaker 1: I've done it. I It's I'm not gonna say it's 1092 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,720 Speaker 1: necessarily easier all the time, but it does make things 1093 01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:48,480 Speaker 1: a little more predictable for um, and especially if you're 1094 01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,400 Speaker 1: hunting you know, places that don't see a lot of 1095 01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,160 Speaker 1: pressure on some private land. Uh that that you only 1096 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,480 Speaker 1: have access to. It makes things easier. Um, but is 1097 01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:00,480 Speaker 1: is easier what we need to be doing? You know? 1098 01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,960 Speaker 1: Is that is that justification when actually, you know the 1099 01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,400 Speaker 1: whole point of honey Actually, like we mentioned in homage 1100 01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:11,560 Speaker 1: to a time when it was much harder, we've already 1101 01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:15,360 Speaker 1: got all these other benefits. Man. We got you know, 1102 01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:20,000 Speaker 1: compound bows, we got rifles, we got the scent absorban clothing, 1103 01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,320 Speaker 1: heck fire, we got the the O zone stuff. Now 1104 01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,680 Speaker 1: that's supposed to be I've never used that, but you know, 1105 01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:35,559 Speaker 1: sin killing spray, um camouflages, game cameras, greg calls, you know, 1106 01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:39,639 Speaker 1: synthetic extra scent. We got all these other advantages. Yeah. 1107 01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,920 Speaker 1: Um that you know, probably taking as a whole given 1108 01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,439 Speaker 1: that we're not full time hunters anymore. You know, we 1109 01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:49,800 Speaker 1: all have to pay bills, and we live in this 1110 01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,640 Speaker 1: civilization and we have to we have these other obligations. 1111 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,320 Speaker 1: We can't spend all this time in the woods to 1112 01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,880 Speaker 1: learn all this stuff. Uh, you know some of those 1113 01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,960 Speaker 1: that's that's fine, But then where do you draw the 1114 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,880 Speaker 1: line on that, yeah, or where does it become something 1115 01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:09,080 Speaker 1: that it's totally different from what it was. Yeah, where 1116 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:15,400 Speaker 1: does it? You know? Just giving any speaking very frankly, 1117 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 1: I don't understand how you could riffle hunt over corn. 1118 01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:21,160 Speaker 1: I don't understand why you would want to riffle hunt 1119 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:26,439 Speaker 1: over corn. You know that to me is um unless 1120 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,400 Speaker 1: your whole objective, in the deepest depths of your heart, 1121 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,400 Speaker 1: was just to hunt the most efficient way to gather me, 1122 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:40,000 Speaker 1: which is usually exactly the opposite for someone that would 1123 01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:44,719 Speaker 1: do this, Yes, that exactly you know. Yeah, if if 1124 01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:46,760 Speaker 1: if a feller needed to go kill a deer to 1125 01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:50,280 Speaker 1: feed his family, I absolutely get that. But if if 1126 01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:52,680 Speaker 1: you're if you if you have the means to do 1127 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:54,479 Speaker 1: all this, to put up a you know, a big 1128 01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:56,840 Speaker 1: corn feeder, fill with corn, put up a big glasser, 1129 01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:58,400 Speaker 1: stand in a camera right there to make sure that, 1130 01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:00,599 Speaker 1: dear you know not you know exactly when is coming by. 1131 01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:06,320 Speaker 1: You don't need the meat more than likely, Yeah, you could. 1132 01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:08,880 Speaker 1: You could have used your financial resources in other ways 1133 01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:12,160 Speaker 1: to procure proteins. Yes, so what are you gaining? What 1134 01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:15,519 Speaker 1: what's the you know, what's I don't understand what your 1135 01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:20,920 Speaker 1: goals are here. I don't understand. Um, I don't understand 1136 01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:24,080 Speaker 1: the motivation. You know. Part of the the appeal to 1137 01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:26,280 Speaker 1: me and the reason I hunt the white hunt is 1138 01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:30,400 Speaker 1: I like the the anticipation and they're not really known 1139 01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:33,920 Speaker 1: what's gonna happen, the uncertainty. So that's what makes it, 1140 01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,880 Speaker 1: you know, to me that this is an old, old 1141 01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:39,760 Speaker 1: story I've heard before and about fishing. But you know, 1142 01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,960 Speaker 1: a fisherman died and he h ended up in this 1143 01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,200 Speaker 1: place where you know this creek, and it was full 1144 01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:49,360 Speaker 1: of fish and every cast, every cast, he was catching 1145 01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,200 Speaker 1: three and four and five pound bass and he thought 1146 01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,880 Speaker 1: he was in heaven for the first hour, and then 1147 01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,360 Speaker 1: he realized he was in hell. Because that's that that 1148 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,880 Speaker 1: salute certainty about this is what's gonna happen that kills 1149 01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:07,360 Speaker 1: all the magic, that kills the whole experience. You know, 1150 01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,240 Speaker 1: you're you're you're not going the grocery store. You're going 1151 01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:14,360 Speaker 1: out to pick your skills, you know, ideally, and you know, 1152 01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,559 Speaker 1: if you want to try to define hitting, I guess 1153 01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:18,920 Speaker 1: you're you're you're going out to pit your skills against 1154 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,320 Speaker 1: the wild animal. Yeah, um, I see if you can 1155 01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:26,120 Speaker 1: bring the animal home when you that would be in 1156 01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:29,599 Speaker 1: homage to what it would be a hat tip, because 1157 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,760 Speaker 1: that's not what a Native American would have gone out 1158 01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:34,160 Speaker 1: into the woods for. He would have gone out there, 1159 01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,240 Speaker 1: he wouldn't, I guess functionally he was pitting his skills 1160 01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:41,160 Speaker 1: against the wild animal. But he was going out there 1161 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:43,280 Speaker 1: to get dinner, to kill, yeah, to kill an animal 1162 01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:45,080 Speaker 1: to bring home. So he didn't care if there was 1163 01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:51,360 Speaker 1: no ceremony. We ran, you know, back in the place, 1164 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,599 Speaker 1: and they ran them off cliffs. It ran a run, 1165 01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:55,400 Speaker 1: a herd of man with their bias and off off 1166 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:57,080 Speaker 1: of bluff, you know, and go down to bottom and 1167 01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,719 Speaker 1: butcher them. So no, all that sportsmanship, but all that stuff, 1168 01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,639 Speaker 1: that's a construct of where we are today again trying 1169 01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:07,680 Speaker 1: to pay tribute to the old ways, but we have 1170 01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:14,760 Speaker 1: all these modern conveniences. Um, so you know again where yes, 1171 01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:17,840 Speaker 1: we need some to offset Again, are are lacking our 1172 01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,080 Speaker 1: lacks because we don't have the time to spend out 1173 01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:23,080 Speaker 1: there to be full time hunters. But we're where's the 1174 01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:31,080 Speaker 1: line there could could would and we're using the pendulum, 1175 01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,400 Speaker 1: you know, you know, the furthest swing of possibilities of 1176 01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:38,320 Speaker 1: rifle hunting over a pile of corn. As our as 1177 01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,599 Speaker 1: our analogy probably gonna make a lot of people say, 1178 01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:43,439 Speaker 1: but I don't care. I mean, I'm just like you. 1179 01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:46,280 Speaker 1: I've hunted over I've I've killed plenty of deer over 1180 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:51,519 Speaker 1: over corn with a bow. And I can talk about 1181 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,960 Speaker 1: my my thoughts on all that. But would it not 1182 01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:59,840 Speaker 1: be the efficiency that we've seen in every other part 1183 01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:02,080 Speaker 1: of life? I mean, is it not just the trend 1184 01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:05,280 Speaker 1: of the age though? And I'm not defending it, saying 1185 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:10,120 Speaker 1: because we drive faster cars, we drive smoother cars, we 1186 01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:13,599 Speaker 1: want faster internet, we want more efficient Like I don't 1187 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:15,840 Speaker 1: want to call you on the phone anymore. I want 1188 01:13:15,840 --> 01:13:18,479 Speaker 1: to text you because talking to you on the phone 1189 01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,960 Speaker 1: is too cumbersome, because I have to a greet you 1190 01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,760 Speaker 1: and do some pleasantries like how are you doing? You're 1191 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,040 Speaker 1: doing our get to the point I want to say, 1192 01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,200 Speaker 1: when are you gonna be here? It is? It is 1193 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,519 Speaker 1: not hunting over you know? It is. It's like the 1194 01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:37,000 Speaker 1: trend of the age is moving towards that is that 1195 01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:40,320 Speaker 1: Does that make no? I'm not no, not get it. 1196 01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,920 Speaker 1: And that's what I'm saying though. Is it why I 1197 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,160 Speaker 1: don't really understand the why you're hunting? Yeah? I mean 1198 01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:49,920 Speaker 1: because less your motivation is just a gather meat and 1199 01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,920 Speaker 1: most efficient, that would be it and again out as 1200 01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,400 Speaker 1: a meat hunter, it's hard for me to find fault there. 1201 01:13:57,120 --> 01:13:59,280 Speaker 1: But at the same time, part of the part of 1202 01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:04,120 Speaker 1: the whole, the the reason I like getting killing the 1203 01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:07,760 Speaker 1: deer from my meat is the experience. Yes, you know, 1204 01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:11,720 Speaker 1: when you're losing that exs try this on though, So 1205 01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:15,759 Speaker 1: it's almost like I'm gonna compare it to a roller coaster. 1206 01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:22,640 Speaker 1: So a roller coaster is this false sense of adventure 1207 01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:30,040 Speaker 1: and danger that's totally calculated, totally safe. It actually has 1208 01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:35,240 Speaker 1: nothing inside of it that the emotions of being on 1209 01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:40,800 Speaker 1: that roller color coaster causes you to believe it's happening. Yeah, 1210 01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:42,960 Speaker 1: that's an excellent analysy because like you get on a 1211 01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:47,640 Speaker 1: roller coaster to experience something in the human ex you know, 1212 01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:50,880 Speaker 1: to and ohm, I keep I love that word, man, 1213 01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,200 Speaker 1: you know a hat tip to like when there was 1214 01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:55,800 Speaker 1: real danger and if you were really in danger and 1215 01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:58,240 Speaker 1: if you were really doing something wild and crazy, you 1216 01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:01,800 Speaker 1: get on a roller coaster with no real danger and 1217 01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:04,080 Speaker 1: get to feel the highs and lows of thinking you're 1218 01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:07,000 Speaker 1: about to die, but not actually do it. I mean so, 1219 01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,320 Speaker 1: but we're kind of already doing that anyway with hunting. 1220 01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:11,640 Speaker 1: Because we all again modern day hunting, because we have 1221 01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:17,120 Speaker 1: all these advantages and we don't need to you know, really, 1222 01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:19,960 Speaker 1: we don't have to kill these animals. We can go 1223 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,479 Speaker 1: to the grocery store. We don't have to go to 1224 01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:24,040 Speaker 1: any effort, you know, we can go to to the grocery 1225 01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,960 Speaker 1: store and and and and buy the meat. But I don't, 1226 01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's for the big reason I don't 1227 01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:32,559 Speaker 1: hunt with a camera. I don't use a game camera. 1228 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:35,840 Speaker 1: And that's everybody does it, you know, uh, and I don't. 1229 01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I Umm not sayingnything bad about 1230 01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:42,519 Speaker 1: It's just a personal choice. I don't want to know 1231 01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,840 Speaker 1: that I can set here this day and at eight thirty, 1232 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:50,000 Speaker 1: this buck's gonna walk by. I like the idea of 1233 01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,479 Speaker 1: putting in my time and and figuring out if there's 1234 01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,840 Speaker 1: deer walking by, just based on sign that I found. 1235 01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:57,240 Speaker 1: You know, I found this reb line. Okay, I'm just 1236 01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:00,240 Speaker 1: gonna put in my time here and earn this. I 1237 01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:04,719 Speaker 1: like the idea of that what if? What if making 1238 01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,840 Speaker 1: hunting easier? Well, I think the whole philosophy of making 1239 01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:11,679 Speaker 1: hunting easier has been for hunter recruitment. Do you think 1240 01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:14,839 Speaker 1: it has and so here we are in twenty nineteen. 1241 01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:21,120 Speaker 1: Civilization is moving away from us. It is I mean, 1242 01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,880 Speaker 1: like the planet and its philosophies and its world views 1243 01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:30,160 Speaker 1: is moving away from us. And that is the ultimately 1244 01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,519 Speaker 1: the biggest threat to our way of life. I mean, 1245 01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:36,280 Speaker 1: we're these guys living in the ozarks set like man. 1246 01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:38,000 Speaker 1: I like to be able to go out in my 1247 01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,240 Speaker 1: backyard and shoot deer. I like to be able to 1248 01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:42,640 Speaker 1: go bear hunt and have a liberal enough season to 1249 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:46,200 Speaker 1: actually have a chance of killing a bear. I want 1250 01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:49,040 Speaker 1: my sons when they're forty and fifty years old to 1251 01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,840 Speaker 1: be able to do the same thing. How do I 1252 01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:53,960 Speaker 1: make sure? How do I ensure that fifty years from 1253 01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:57,920 Speaker 1: now this is gonna be here? Do I make hunting harder? 1254 01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:00,840 Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to prove it, I get what 1255 01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,280 Speaker 1: you're saying. I'm asking you, do we do we make 1256 01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:06,400 Speaker 1: hunting hard because the way that you're hunting it's harder? 1257 01:17:08,080 --> 01:17:10,919 Speaker 1: Or do we keep making it easier because it's easy. 1258 01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,840 Speaker 1: It is easier, there's no doubt about it, to pour 1259 01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:16,120 Speaker 1: it a palicorn and shoot a deer with a rifle 1260 01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:20,559 Speaker 1: because people want easier. So it's like, where is that? 1261 01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:24,360 Speaker 1: Where is that line, because I mean, honestly, I think 1262 01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:27,200 Speaker 1: if we, I mean, you see it happening in states 1263 01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,400 Speaker 1: where they have snuffed out like and I'll use Colorado 1264 01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,679 Speaker 1: as an example. Can't bathe and bear hunting in Colorado? Okay, 1265 01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,479 Speaker 1: you can't use hounds, they eliminated the spring season, and 1266 01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:40,200 Speaker 1: you can't use bait, all those things you used to 1267 01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:42,759 Speaker 1: could do. There used to be a thriving bear hunting 1268 01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:47,600 Speaker 1: culture in Colorado. Today bear hunting Colorado is as a 1269 01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:51,520 Speaker 1: as a as compared to other big game species in Colorado, 1270 01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:53,920 Speaker 1: the hunt is just the knees we're taking out of it. 1271 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:56,920 Speaker 1: Very few people. They've increased the degree of difficulties so 1272 01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,479 Speaker 1: much that it's pushed him out. It takes die hards 1273 01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,800 Speaker 1: sit and that that hearts are very small numbers. So 1274 01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:08,000 Speaker 1: if we in Arkansas and see for me and you, 1275 01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,240 Speaker 1: this would be awesome. If they said, you know what, 1276 01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:13,240 Speaker 1: you can't use game cameras, you can't use corn, you 1277 01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:16,360 Speaker 1: can't use guns, you got to use bows, you know what, 1278 01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:18,240 Speaker 1: you can't even hunt on private land. You gotta hunt 1279 01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:22,040 Speaker 1: on public land. Like we would snuff hunting out, would 1280 01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:26,240 Speaker 1: we not? Well tell me if I don't know Okay, 1281 01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,960 Speaker 1: the last or wouldn't make it stronger? That's what I'm wondering. 1282 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,479 Speaker 1: You know. The one of the books that that I 1283 01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,760 Speaker 1: read years ago that really helped shape who I am 1284 01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:39,880 Speaker 1: today was David Peterson's Heart's Blood. Yeah, and in that 1285 01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:42,599 Speaker 1: he makes an argument that we don't need more hunters, 1286 01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:47,720 Speaker 1: we need better hunters. Um. Now he means you know, conscientious, 1287 01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:50,400 Speaker 1: that's what he means, not necessarily more skilled. But I 1288 01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:55,240 Speaker 1: think that goes hand in hand. Uh. But the last 1289 01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:58,519 Speaker 1: Poles I saw most of the non hunting public approve 1290 01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:02,800 Speaker 1: of honey. You know, politically, I don't. I don't think 1291 01:19:02,800 --> 01:19:06,799 Speaker 1: we're in danger. Um. I actually think the biggest danger 1292 01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:11,600 Speaker 1: we have is when we decrease the level of difficulty 1293 01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:15,519 Speaker 1: to the point that non hunters see it as student 1294 01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:18,800 Speaker 1: fish in a barrel. Uh, that we're just going out 1295 01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:22,640 Speaker 1: there for blood lust, That that we're not you know, 1296 01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:28,960 Speaker 1: paying homage like we said we were there were not 1297 01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:34,400 Speaker 1: you know, trying to to uh respect and hold onto 1298 01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,360 Speaker 1: this heritage. But we're just gonna try to kill stuff. 1299 01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:42,679 Speaker 1: And so you know, that actually concerns me more than 1300 01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:46,000 Speaker 1: dwindling hunting numbers. Now, there's a whole other as far 1301 01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:48,160 Speaker 1: as as far as politically, now out now, let me 1302 01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:50,920 Speaker 1: let me cava out there. You know, of course dweling 1303 01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,920 Speaker 1: hunting numbers are not good for game agencies, for wildlife 1304 01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:58,280 Speaker 1: agencies because that the bulk of their their resources funding 1305 01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,400 Speaker 1: comes from license sales. Um. I think there are other 1306 01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:06,760 Speaker 1: ways around that too. But as far as again politically, uh, 1307 01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, man. I like what you said, Johnny, 1308 01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:15,400 Speaker 1: because I wasn't building a case well no, no, no, no, 1309 01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:19,160 Speaker 1: I was building a case for why we should let it. 1310 01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,639 Speaker 1: But if that feels to me like a band aid, 1311 01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:26,240 Speaker 1: it does. It feels like a fix that's not long term, 1312 01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:29,839 Speaker 1: that eventually would end in some kind of really negative 1313 01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:33,320 Speaker 1: consequence and we would end up in a place totally 1314 01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,880 Speaker 1: different from where we started. And I think that's totally 1315 01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:40,920 Speaker 1: a point that we're on the same page on. So 1316 01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:45,519 Speaker 1: and that's where the complexity of the issue is so 1317 01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:47,600 Speaker 1: hard to deal with. Do you do? You fix the 1318 01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:52,400 Speaker 1: problem quick by making it easier, by making you know, 1319 01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:58,160 Speaker 1: just making every limiting factor of hunting easier for easy, 1320 01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:02,719 Speaker 1: less barriers to entry, you know, and and and fix 1321 01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:05,439 Speaker 1: it quick, But then make a bunch of people that are, 1322 01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,000 Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, and I'm not gonna 1323 01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:10,640 Speaker 1: well a shallow hunter. I'm just gonna use that term. 1324 01:21:10,720 --> 01:21:13,679 Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it. And those people 1325 01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:17,479 Speaker 1: don't value hunting and so they don't pass it on 1326 01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:19,439 Speaker 1: to their kids in the same way that we have 1327 01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:25,360 Speaker 1: or do you have these guys that you know deeply 1328 01:21:25,439 --> 01:21:29,000 Speaker 1: value it and value it so much that they pass 1329 01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,759 Speaker 1: it on in great strength to their kids and pass 1330 01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:33,080 Speaker 1: it on. And do you see what I'm saying, The 1331 01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,920 Speaker 1: shallow is the best way to describe it, because with 1332 01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:41,200 Speaker 1: within the whole experience, you know, you lose this these 1333 01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:45,000 Speaker 1: all this richness just by sitting over a polcorn. You 1334 01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:48,120 Speaker 1: lose all these all this woodsmanship. I mean, you know, 1335 01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:50,400 Speaker 1: your dad probably taught you same way. Minded we go 1336 01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:53,640 Speaker 1: out looking for tracks and rubs, scrapes, and you know, 1337 01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:55,760 Speaker 1: I mean one of my earliest memories of hunt was 1338 01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:58,720 Speaker 1: Dad show me where a squirrel checked hickory nut. You 1339 01:21:58,760 --> 01:22:01,479 Speaker 1: know this is this is be a good tree there 1340 01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,920 Speaker 1: and kills with squirrels. You know. Um. But when you 1341 01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:10,120 Speaker 1: when you yeah, reduce it down to okay, I know 1342 01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:12,760 Speaker 1: this this buck or what you know, bells whatever gonna 1343 01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,280 Speaker 1: show up this cornpile at at two o'clock in the afternoon. 1344 01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:22,160 Speaker 1: You're giving up all that all that's um, all that 1345 01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:26,280 Speaker 1: hunting is I mean, really and truly, what what else 1346 01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:32,120 Speaker 1: is there? What does that? Isn't that really just killing? Yeah? Yeah, 1347 01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:36,840 Speaker 1: uh so yeah, it's it's complex, it's complicated. There's a 1348 01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:44,799 Speaker 1: whole lot of a whole lot of different goals to consider, 1349 01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:47,639 Speaker 1: you know, and and the best you know, if if 1350 01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:50,560 Speaker 1: our ultimate goal is to preserved hunting, I don't know 1351 01:22:50,600 --> 01:22:52,120 Speaker 1: if that's the best way I see it, as you 1352 01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:54,320 Speaker 1: it's a band aid, it's it's a way to bring in, 1353 01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, get a quick hit. People take you like 1354 01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,760 Speaker 1: what you said about how the percept of hunting could 1355 01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:09,160 Speaker 1: actually be more critical than than I believe that. Truly. 1356 01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:12,240 Speaker 1: I'm friends with some vegan folks, and they don't have 1357 01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:14,639 Speaker 1: a problem with me hunting. They don't have a Yeah 1358 01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:16,160 Speaker 1: I say, they don't have a problem. They don't. They 1359 01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:18,160 Speaker 1: don't like the idea of an animal, you know, dying. 1360 01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,920 Speaker 1: Frankly speaking, that's not we're consumers, you know, if you're living, 1361 01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:27,680 Speaker 1: there's other things dying because exactly you know, so you know, 1362 01:23:28,240 --> 01:23:33,320 Speaker 1: but uh, getting the meat the way I get it, um, 1363 01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:38,040 Speaker 1: you know, they I don't think. And again, these are 1364 01:23:38,280 --> 01:23:40,519 Speaker 1: you know, folks that are vegans. Most people that don't 1365 01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:44,280 Speaker 1: hunt that aren't necessarily aren't vegans or vegetarians. I don't 1366 01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:46,559 Speaker 1: I don't think they have a problem with that. Actually, 1367 01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:51,599 Speaker 1: I think they see some people people that I've met 1368 01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:55,320 Speaker 1: that um are opposed to a lot of the more 1369 01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:02,599 Speaker 1: again shallow ty hunting experiences. When I explained to them 1370 01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:05,479 Speaker 1: how I hunt, they oh, okay, I get that, I 1371 01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:10,679 Speaker 1: understand that. Yeah, UM, so yeah, I think that plays 1372 01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:15,959 Speaker 1: into our future probably. I think it's probably more important 1373 01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:20,479 Speaker 1: than numbers from from again from the political perspective, from 1374 01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:23,240 Speaker 1: the funding perspective, that's different, you know. And then you 1375 01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:25,640 Speaker 1: got the Pittman Robertson thinking all that is wrapped up 1376 01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,280 Speaker 1: into more hunters and so I I don't want to 1377 01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:31,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to take away from that. But where 1378 01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:36,000 Speaker 1: do you find about you know, we took this last 1379 01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,120 Speaker 1: weekend my sun turned fourteen, and he wanted to take 1380 01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:43,719 Speaker 1: somebody's from school hunting. Um. One of them had never hunted, 1381 01:24:43,760 --> 01:24:46,120 Speaker 1: and two of them had hunted quite a bit, but 1382 01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:52,719 Speaker 1: never with us. And uh, I was I was torn 1383 01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:55,679 Speaker 1: about how you know, on this private land over here, 1384 01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:58,599 Speaker 1: you know, I could put them on a spot where 1385 01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:01,240 Speaker 1: they could probably kill a deer with gun. We're gun hunting, 1386 01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:04,400 Speaker 1: and uh, I was a little bit torn, especially with 1387 01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:08,080 Speaker 1: this new kid that had never hunted before, of putting 1388 01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:10,720 Speaker 1: him in the in the spot that I knew you'd 1389 01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:12,920 Speaker 1: kill a deer. But it's kind of hard to tell 1390 01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,080 Speaker 1: somebody that, like, I'm gonna put you in a bad 1391 01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:17,639 Speaker 1: spot so that you don't kill a deer the first 1392 01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:20,600 Speaker 1: time you hunt, you know, uh, in your I was 1393 01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:23,520 Speaker 1: torn because I wanted him to have a good experience 1394 01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:25,240 Speaker 1: and have fun and see deer. And then if we 1395 01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:27,880 Speaker 1: saw dairy's probably gonna get a shot out of deer anyway. 1396 01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,519 Speaker 1: But I was thinking about, boy, it took me years 1397 01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:33,479 Speaker 1: to kill a deer. And you, I know you too 1398 01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:37,320 Speaker 1: from a long time. Yeah, it took years to kill 1399 01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:39,920 Speaker 1: a deer. And and that's why I value hunting so 1400 01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:41,960 Speaker 1: much to this day, when I go out on private 1401 01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:44,880 Speaker 1: land over here and I know where I go sit 1402 01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,400 Speaker 1: tonight and see deer and maybe you can kill a 1403 01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:51,080 Speaker 1: deer with my bow, Kylie, my heart still skips a 1404 01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,120 Speaker 1: beat when I see a doe deer walking to me. 1405 01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:56,320 Speaker 1: And it's because when I was eleven years old and 1406 01:25:56,360 --> 01:26:00,519 Speaker 1: started bow hunting with my dad. I hunted seasons before 1407 01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:02,840 Speaker 1: I had a deer in bow range. I was. I 1408 01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:05,800 Speaker 1: was twenty one before I killed my first deer, you know, 1409 01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:08,519 Speaker 1: and I grew up I'm forty eight now. We didn't 1410 01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,080 Speaker 1: have many deer, you know. And we always went to 1411 01:26:11,120 --> 01:26:13,160 Speaker 1: Newton Kane hunt. Never no deer there. We ran in 1412 01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:17,720 Speaker 1: with dogs because they were they were hard to find. Um. 1413 01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:21,599 Speaker 1: And and so yeah, and you know, my kids when 1414 01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, I guess in the eighties or in the 1415 01:26:23,760 --> 01:26:26,360 Speaker 1: nineties when the population really boomed here in Arkansas and 1416 01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:29,800 Speaker 1: start popping up everywhere. And and even today, you know, 1417 01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,920 Speaker 1: when I see deer in my backyard, I'm it's almost 1418 01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:36,519 Speaker 1: like a magical experience, you know, to see these these 1419 01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:38,600 Speaker 1: deer out there. And I remember my kids when we 1420 01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:40,280 Speaker 1: were growing up. Anytime I see her deer on the 1421 01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:41,599 Speaker 1: road and side of the rather like, oh my god, 1422 01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:43,280 Speaker 1: there's deer, you know, and we kid, we pull over 1423 01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:45,920 Speaker 1: and look at them. And it's because, like you said, 1424 01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,439 Speaker 1: there were seasons went by when you know, I might 1425 01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:53,240 Speaker 1: see one dough, um, I might not see any deer. 1426 01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,799 Speaker 1: Seeing a track was a big deal. Um. Seeing rubs 1427 01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:01,160 Speaker 1: were oh my gosh, what did that douce inside of us? Though? 1428 01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:08,280 Speaker 1: It produced a deep appreciation that is hard to replicate today, Johnny, 1429 01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:10,639 Speaker 1: I my kids. So you know, my kids have grown 1430 01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:13,479 Speaker 1: up around here with good deer numbers. We see deer. 1431 01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:15,519 Speaker 1: Probably not we don't see deer every day, but we 1432 01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:17,400 Speaker 1: see a lot of deer, way more than I would 1433 01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:19,840 Speaker 1: have when I was a kid, just in everyday life. 1434 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:24,200 Speaker 1: I told my kids years ago, I said, in this car, 1435 01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:28,360 Speaker 1: in this truck, we're gonna celebrate every time we see 1436 01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:30,880 Speaker 1: a deer, no matter how many we see. And I 1437 01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:33,880 Speaker 1: told him years ago, and River Nwcom could verify this 1438 01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:36,759 Speaker 1: because she reminded me of this other day. But she said, 1439 01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, well I told him, I said, we can 1440 01:27:39,840 --> 01:27:44,839 Speaker 1: never get used to seeing deer and just drive by. 1441 01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:47,960 Speaker 1: I get upset with my wife. My wife loves us hunting, 1442 01:27:48,040 --> 01:27:50,439 Speaker 1: and you know, she loves cooking deer meat, and but 1443 01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:53,280 Speaker 1: she's not a hunter. You know, she's not like, let's 1444 01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:57,120 Speaker 1: go hunting and uh and uh if she sees a 1445 01:27:57,200 --> 01:28:00,880 Speaker 1: deer and doesn't text me within an hour and give 1446 01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:04,040 Speaker 1: me a report, like if like two days later she's like, yeah, 1447 01:28:04,040 --> 01:28:06,720 Speaker 1: I saw a deer, I get Uh, it's a big 1448 01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:08,960 Speaker 1: joke around our family. I act like, I'm real mad, 1449 01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:11,360 Speaker 1: dot got it? Why did you not tell me that? 1450 01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:13,120 Speaker 1: So we I had to put a quote on her. 1451 01:28:13,360 --> 01:28:15,320 Speaker 1: I said, if you see a deer, I don't care 1452 01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:17,840 Speaker 1: if it's in Fayetteville or if it's I need to 1453 01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:23,040 Speaker 1: know within one hour. I mean, the whole idea is 1454 01:28:23,080 --> 01:28:26,599 Speaker 1: the in the culture of our family to put value 1455 01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:31,240 Speaker 1: on just wildlife that's here, because it is. It is amazing. 1456 01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,920 Speaker 1: But it started with scarcity, though it did. And part 1457 01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:38,599 Speaker 1: of it too, though, is there's you know some people 1458 01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:42,599 Speaker 1: are I was always drawn to the woods, into the 1459 01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:44,280 Speaker 1: creeks and ponds and stuff like that, and you were 1460 01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,760 Speaker 1: probably the same way. There was a natural curiosity there was, 1461 01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't know why. And my grandpa from an early 1462 01:28:52,520 --> 01:28:55,760 Speaker 1: stage I've talked about this or I've written about this, 1463 01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:58,360 Speaker 1: where he would uh from from when I was really young. 1464 01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:02,600 Speaker 1: He would bring me lizar and spiders and salamanders and 1465 01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:05,120 Speaker 1: snakes and stuff in jars and we talked about them, 1466 01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, let him go on all that stuff. So 1467 01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:09,639 Speaker 1: this appreciation for nature and wildlife and all that stuff 1468 01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:13,719 Speaker 1: was was fostered in me early before I ever started hunting, 1469 01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:16,439 Speaker 1: Before I started fishing, which fishing was one of my 1470 01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:22,120 Speaker 1: earliest memories. You know, Um, is that where it comes from? Too? 1471 01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:25,840 Speaker 1: Is it? You know? I think the scarcity is You're right, 1472 01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:29,080 Speaker 1: But but you and I had the perseverance to push 1473 01:29:29,160 --> 01:29:33,280 Speaker 1: through that. You know what gave us that? Is that 1474 01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:35,920 Speaker 1: just a personality quirse. Some didn't I don't know, some 1475 01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,800 Speaker 1: didn't something, Some didn't didn't stick. Uh, you know I didn't. 1476 01:29:40,400 --> 01:29:42,680 Speaker 1: Probably wouldn't have stuck with them if they'd have been 1477 01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:45,320 Speaker 1: handed there their whole life. Probably not. It probably wouldn't 1478 01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,720 Speaker 1: have mattered. Yeah, either way, you know. So you know, 1479 01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:52,040 Speaker 1: are we are we maybe through this making things easier? 1480 01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:57,559 Speaker 1: Are we in a sense artificially inflating number? You know 1481 01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:02,200 Speaker 1: what I've heard somewhere. I've heard that like in the population, 1482 01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:07,080 Speaker 1: there's probably some percentage of people that are naturally inclined 1483 01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:11,559 Speaker 1: to be really dedicated hunters. It's very small, almost, Yeah, 1484 01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,439 Speaker 1: I've ever thought about it like this, but almost like 1485 01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:16,280 Speaker 1: in a litter of hounds like you can take you 1486 01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:20,719 Speaker 1: can take well bred hounds and you know, have ten 1487 01:30:20,760 --> 01:30:25,400 Speaker 1: puppies and probably about three of them are gonna really 1488 01:30:25,439 --> 01:30:29,040 Speaker 1: be what you want. The other seven are gonna have 1489 01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:32,960 Speaker 1: inklings of it, but probably not gonna be exactly what 1490 01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:35,759 Speaker 1: you want. Well, and there's different motives even for those 1491 01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,400 Speaker 1: that popular segment of population. There's a Cameron free as 1492 01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:42,720 Speaker 1: a sociologist or an anthropologist. His name was Kellert, I 1493 01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:46,839 Speaker 1: believe um that did a study on hunters and their motives, 1494 01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:50,040 Speaker 1: the reasons for hunting, and he found three different general types. 1495 01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:53,080 Speaker 1: There was the trophy hunter, which you know, there's a 1496 01:30:53,120 --> 01:30:56,120 Speaker 1: lot of negative connotations, a lot of negativity attached to that, 1497 01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:00,400 Speaker 1: but how he described it was someone that hunter for ego, 1498 01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:05,040 Speaker 1: yeah uh. And then there was utilitarian hunter, which hunted 1499 01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:07,360 Speaker 1: to fill the freezer. And then there was a third type, 1500 01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:10,479 Speaker 1: and I believe he called it a naturalist hunter, which 1501 01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:15,000 Speaker 1: was someone that was they you know, whereas the trophy 1502 01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:19,880 Speaker 1: hunter and the utilitarian hunter, they might know specifics about 1503 01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:23,400 Speaker 1: you know, the place, the tree species, all these different 1504 01:31:23,439 --> 01:31:27,280 Speaker 1: kinds of things two to reach the end gull of 1505 01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:30,120 Speaker 1: killing a deer. The naturalist hunter tended to have a 1506 01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:34,920 Speaker 1: better understanding of the entire ecosystem, not just where the 1507 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:38,639 Speaker 1: white oaks were, but also where the marble salamanders were, 1508 01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:43,479 Speaker 1: where the screech owls were. Um, you know, all these 1509 01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:46,559 Speaker 1: other different aspects of of this, of the place and 1510 01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:52,200 Speaker 1: of the experience. So you know, even within that segment there, uh, 1511 01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:54,920 Speaker 1: that small segment of people that are you know, drawn 1512 01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:59,120 Speaker 1: to hunting and uh stay involved in it. There's still 1513 01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:05,519 Speaker 1: a pretty broad range of reasons. Why. Yeah, I think 1514 01:32:05,560 --> 01:32:08,280 Speaker 1: you can be all three of those, Johnny, Well, I 1515 01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:10,920 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean there's an overlap obviously, you know, 1516 01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,519 Speaker 1: even within myself, but even with myself, I said, I 1517 01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:17,960 Speaker 1: mean I like big antlers. Yeah, I think you would 1518 01:32:17,960 --> 01:32:20,320 Speaker 1: be an example of all three, and I would hope 1519 01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:23,360 Speaker 1: that I would pretty close. And I like shooting big deer. Yeah, 1520 01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:25,320 Speaker 1: And I think I think it's probably like a lot 1521 01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:27,800 Speaker 1: of things in this world. It's the spectrum. There's not 1522 01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's not your You don't necessarily fit in 1523 01:32:30,200 --> 01:32:32,479 Speaker 1: this lot, this lot of this loot, but you tend 1524 01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:34,559 Speaker 1: to lean more one way or the other. And a 1525 01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,519 Speaker 1: lot of it may depend on the circumstances. Uh. Yeah. 1526 01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:39,880 Speaker 1: If I'm if I'm hunting Hall of Bend, which has 1527 01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:43,120 Speaker 1: big deer, I'm a little more selective about you know, 1528 01:32:43,120 --> 01:32:46,639 Speaker 1: the bucks I'm shooting um. At the same time, I'm 1529 01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:48,760 Speaker 1: also trying to feel the freezer and at the same time, 1530 01:32:48,800 --> 01:32:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm also aware that I'm in a hackberry tree, and 1531 01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm aware that the Robbins that come through are gonna 1532 01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:58,120 Speaker 1: if there's big flocker, Robbins are gonna lie around me hackberries. 1533 01:32:58,160 --> 01:33:00,840 Speaker 1: You know. Uh so, yeah, you can. I think you 1534 01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:03,760 Speaker 1: can be all three. That's that's a good point. Hadn't 1535 01:33:03,760 --> 01:33:07,240 Speaker 1: thought about that actually before? Well, as you describe those things, 1536 01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:10,960 Speaker 1: I was like, I mean, I was like, yeah, I 1537 01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:13,400 Speaker 1: would be that. I would be that sometimes and I 1538 01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:17,439 Speaker 1: would be that. But you know, I think in any 1539 01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:20,280 Speaker 1: human experience, the more you know, the more knowledge you have, 1540 01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:23,120 Speaker 1: the more insight you have, the more awareness that you 1541 01:33:23,200 --> 01:33:25,920 Speaker 1: have of your motivations, the richer this experience is going 1542 01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:28,880 Speaker 1: to be. If you, you know, if you play golf, 1543 01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:31,720 Speaker 1: which there's a joke on this podcast about me not 1544 01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:35,080 Speaker 1: liking golf. Okay, I don't like golf either. Okay, good, good, 1545 01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:38,400 Speaker 1: that's why you're here, Johnny. Uh No. There's a a 1546 01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:40,479 Speaker 1: friend of mine that has been on the podcast a 1547 01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:43,000 Speaker 1: couple of times. I'll name his name, James Brandenberg, who 1548 01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,400 Speaker 1: was a big golfer. And I was like, man, you're 1549 01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:49,360 Speaker 1: lucky to be on this podcast. But but if you 1550 01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:54,320 Speaker 1: understand Yeah, that's a lot of that's good. Yeah, And 1551 01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:57,040 Speaker 1: think of all the resource they used to make those 1552 01:33:57,080 --> 01:34:00,559 Speaker 1: golf balls that you know, they had to pull those 1553 01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:04,320 Speaker 1: nutrients from somewhere. Um. Now, But if you understood the 1554 01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:07,880 Speaker 1: game of golf, which I don't, but if you understood 1555 01:34:07,880 --> 01:34:11,479 Speaker 1: the foundations of the game and the cultural aspects of it, 1556 01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:16,599 Speaker 1: and the and the intricacies of the athleticism and dedicate 1557 01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:18,639 Speaker 1: I mean like, it would be a rich experience as 1558 01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:21,400 Speaker 1: opposed to me and you this afternoon going out and 1559 01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:23,840 Speaker 1: playing around of golf and we'd just be like, this 1560 01:34:23,880 --> 01:34:27,639 Speaker 1: is ridiculous, you're exactly And so if we but if 1561 01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:30,200 Speaker 1: we were concistors of the game of golf it's spent 1562 01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:33,160 Speaker 1: our whole lives doing and we understood the types of grass, 1563 01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:37,479 Speaker 1: and we understood the the the names of the ways 1564 01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:40,200 Speaker 1: that they designed fair ways, and I mean all the 1565 01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:43,160 Speaker 1: stuff that we don't know, it would be richer, would 1566 01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:45,240 Speaker 1: be a richer experience. And in this day and age, 1567 01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:47,640 Speaker 1: we're gifted with all of this knowledge. Really at the 1568 01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:51,800 Speaker 1: a few key strokes away, I don't you know, and 1569 01:34:51,840 --> 01:34:54,120 Speaker 1: again this is me, I don't I don't understand why 1570 01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:57,479 Speaker 1: you wouldn't seek that out because you're right, More knowledge, 1571 01:34:57,479 --> 01:35:03,320 Speaker 1: more understanding makes every experience more irnness makes every experience richer. Um, 1572 01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:08,599 Speaker 1: but you know again, I understand just need to feel 1573 01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:12,240 Speaker 1: the freezer comes home. I understand the allure of of 1574 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:18,240 Speaker 1: big horns, big anglers. I get it. Uh yeah, but 1575 01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:23,000 Speaker 1: maybe understanding why you're doing these things. Yeah, yeah, that's 1576 01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:28,800 Speaker 1: a powerful, powerful piece of it. Well man, we well, 1577 01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:31,360 Speaker 1: I have to we have to get together again, do 1578 01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:33,880 Speaker 1: this again. There's a thousand ways we could have took this, 1579 01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:39,439 Speaker 1: uh conversation. So it's been good. I still would Man, 1580 01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:42,040 Speaker 1: You're gonna make me think even more about that, about 1581 01:35:42,080 --> 01:35:44,439 Speaker 1: the reasons why I chose the way, why I choose 1582 01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:47,240 Speaker 1: the way to hunt the way I hunt. Yeah, I'm 1583 01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:50,719 Speaker 1: still you know, I think I think that's a journey 1584 01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:56,080 Speaker 1: that well, for sure, writers are on is A is 1585 01:35:56,120 --> 01:36:00,720 Speaker 1: A is the reason why? I mean, like, why do 1586 01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:02,240 Speaker 1: we do the things we do? I mean, I think 1587 01:36:02,320 --> 01:36:04,920 Speaker 1: that's part of why we while we look and while 1588 01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:07,800 Speaker 1: we're right, we try to communicate and and he is 1589 01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:09,400 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of this stuff there may 1590 01:36:09,439 --> 01:36:13,400 Speaker 1: not be answers. Yeah, And I think that's where where 1591 01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:15,719 Speaker 1: I have a problem. Is I'm a guy that likes 1592 01:36:15,760 --> 01:36:19,200 Speaker 1: to have answers, and I'm having a hard time accepting 1593 01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:24,559 Speaker 1: maybe the reality that that I want to encourage people. 1594 01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:28,120 Speaker 1: Look up Johnny Carroll saying, uh, Man, you're writing is 1595 01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:32,040 Speaker 1: awesome really Like I I uh, I was reading some 1596 01:36:32,080 --> 01:36:34,479 Speaker 1: of your stuff last night and I was just like, man, 1597 01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:38,160 Speaker 1: this is good. Like I was challenged, just thinking, Man, 1598 01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:42,479 Speaker 1: I don't write like that. Uh. And uh So, anyway, 1599 01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:44,760 Speaker 1: where can people find you? Where it would be a 1600 01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:47,720 Speaker 1: good good place for people to said, I've got a 1601 01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:52,200 Speaker 1: website called the Philosophical Hillbilly and you can google that. 1602 01:36:52,439 --> 01:36:55,640 Speaker 1: And uh. On that side, I've got a page that 1603 01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:58,599 Speaker 1: has bylines. It's got a list of a lot of 1604 01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:01,600 Speaker 1: published stories. A couple of other podcasts I did. I 1605 01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:04,040 Speaker 1: did one with back Country Hunters Anglers how Hearing, and 1606 01:37:04,040 --> 01:37:08,599 Speaker 1: then one National Wildlife Federation. Um you can go there 1607 01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:12,040 Speaker 1: and look at some stuff. I regularly right for Hatch 1608 01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:17,639 Speaker 1: fly Fishing Magazine, Mid Current fly Fishing Magazine, UM Arkansas Life. 1609 01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:21,360 Speaker 1: I've done some stuff for Quail Forever, which I'm not 1610 01:37:21,400 --> 01:37:24,560 Speaker 1: a quail hunter, but but I I'm I thought I 1611 01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:26,360 Speaker 1: may end up doing that this winter going out with 1612 01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:30,840 Speaker 1: some of those guys. Um Man just I don't know. 1613 01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:34,000 Speaker 1: I've written for several places. You can do stream yeah, 1614 01:37:34,040 --> 01:37:40,599 Speaker 1: Feeling Stream a little bit years ago, UM, Sporting Classics, UM, 1615 01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:45,360 Speaker 1: various other publications, national and regional. The best place will 1616 01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:47,600 Speaker 1: be going on my website, except to find byelines, that 1617 01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:51,519 Speaker 1: would be the beggest place. Closing thoughts anything we didn't 1618 01:37:51,520 --> 01:37:54,360 Speaker 1: talk about that You want all kinds of stuff we 1619 01:37:54,400 --> 01:38:01,200 Speaker 1: could talk about Part two? Yeah, No, it's a great conversation. 1620 01:38:01,360 --> 01:38:04,759 Speaker 1: I think you know a lot of this this stuff 1621 01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:07,439 Speaker 1: that we talked about. Again, there's not really any easy answers. 1622 01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:12,400 Speaker 1: There's not even necessarily answers. Uh right, we're just trying 1623 01:38:12,439 --> 01:38:15,120 Speaker 1: to find a path. I think, uh, you know, I 1624 01:38:15,240 --> 01:38:19,599 Speaker 1: want hunting. I want the outdoor hunting fishing culture to extend, 1625 01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, on to my grandchildren. UM. I want to 1626 01:38:23,240 --> 01:38:26,599 Speaker 1: find the best way to do that. Um I'm not 1627 01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:31,240 Speaker 1: sure what that is yet. Yeah, you know, I think, uh, 1628 01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:36,479 Speaker 1: I think a theme inside of this would be, uh 1629 01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:41,320 Speaker 1: become introspective and like here, here's what I'll say. A 1630 01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:44,719 Speaker 1: guy that's hunting with a rifle over corn, as long 1631 01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:48,440 Speaker 1: as he's being honest and he understands what he's exactly 1632 01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:53,200 Speaker 1: what he's doing, you know then I don't have a 1633 01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:55,360 Speaker 1: problem with that as long as he's being honest. I'm 1634 01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:58,000 Speaker 1: I feel what I'm saying. I feel the same way. Yeah, 1635 01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:04,800 Speaker 1: I yeah, most I have a hard time of understanding it. 1636 01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:08,160 Speaker 1: I guess that's the that's the thing, Uh, I say 1637 01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:11,760 Speaker 1: that I really need to have said this from the start. Man, 1638 01:39:11,800 --> 01:39:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm a privileged guy. I'm I'm a freelance writer. I'm not. 1639 01:39:15,920 --> 01:39:19,920 Speaker 1: I work a lot, but I have control over my schedule. Um, 1640 01:39:20,160 --> 01:39:22,920 Speaker 1: so I can you know, I can make time to hunt, 1641 01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:25,280 Speaker 1: I can make time to scout. I know not everyone 1642 01:39:25,400 --> 01:39:29,040 Speaker 1: done that. I've I've worked, you know, real jobs where 1643 01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:31,840 Speaker 1: I had my time was was taken by this or that, 1644 01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:34,240 Speaker 1: and I did did not have the time that I 1645 01:39:34,280 --> 01:39:36,840 Speaker 1: do now that I enjoy now. So I don't sure 1646 01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:41,719 Speaker 1: don't want to, you know, stand from in my position, 1647 01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:45,360 Speaker 1: my privileged position, and look down on people that do 1648 01:39:45,439 --> 01:39:47,799 Speaker 1: things a certain way, because that's there is the cards 1649 01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:51,479 Speaker 1: they were dealt um you know well, and that's that's 1650 01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:54,920 Speaker 1: very true. Time is often limiting factor, and that's that 1651 01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:58,679 Speaker 1: may be the biggest factor that's played into the rifle 1652 01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:00,880 Speaker 1: hunter over court. It may have you know, it's just 1653 01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:04,679 Speaker 1: like I don't. I don't. And here's here we're jumping 1654 01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:06,759 Speaker 1: into it again. But you know, the guy that says 1655 01:40:07,200 --> 01:40:10,880 Speaker 1: I can hunt one Saturday a year, one weekend a year, 1656 01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:13,439 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put out corn. Right, I'm gonna tell you 1657 01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:15,439 Speaker 1: straight up, if I had one Saturday year, I'd have 1658 01:40:15,520 --> 01:40:17,880 Speaker 1: corn and rifle. There we go. I mean, if I 1659 01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:22,240 Speaker 1: that's asked, just a treat, if I could hunt only weekends, yeah, 1660 01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:26,479 Speaker 1: it'd be tough. I think, and I and I think 1661 01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:29,280 Speaker 1: more than what we're saying, you know. I mean, it's 1662 01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:33,120 Speaker 1: hard to bring judgment on stuff that we don't do 1663 01:40:33,320 --> 01:40:35,320 Speaker 1: because we don't understand. And that's what you're saying is 1664 01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:41,200 Speaker 1: you don't understand it. But but um, I think all 1665 01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm asking is for people to be just honest about it, 1666 01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:48,680 Speaker 1: honest and thoughtful. Just honest. That's that's be all I 1667 01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:52,280 Speaker 1: would ask to. Yeah, just be honest and thoughtful about it. Yeah. 1668 01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,519 Speaker 1: And then the game agencies of the states, I mean, 1669 01:40:56,320 --> 01:41:01,200 Speaker 1: they're the ones that ultimately make decisions that either allow 1670 01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:03,680 Speaker 1: that to be something that's legal or not. So that 1671 01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:07,400 Speaker 1: and that's that's pretty big stuff too. That's a whole 1672 01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:12,120 Speaker 1: another discussion too. Yeah, it is, it is um, well, 1673 01:41:12,200 --> 01:41:16,240 Speaker 1: hey man, awesome. All. Uh, you know what I can 1674 01:41:16,320 --> 01:41:18,760 Speaker 1: in this without saying, because so much of what we've 1675 01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:22,000 Speaker 1: talked about on this podcast has been the ethics and 1676 01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:26,240 Speaker 1: rationale and reasoning behind hunting bears over bait, just for 1677 01:41:26,320 --> 01:41:30,439 Speaker 1: the sake of somebody that's gonna listen to this and say, well, jeez, 1678 01:41:30,439 --> 01:41:32,680 Speaker 1: you were talking about how cool and good hunting over 1679 01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:36,000 Speaker 1: bait was for bear. Bear is different because a bear 1680 01:41:36,120 --> 01:41:41,280 Speaker 1: is a low density animal and in any well, I'm 1681 01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:43,559 Speaker 1: not gonna justify, I'm just gonna say this is what 1682 01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:45,320 Speaker 1: I would say if we had another hour to talk 1683 01:41:45,360 --> 01:41:48,160 Speaker 1: about this, is that deer is a high density animal, 1684 01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:54,760 Speaker 1: with population statewide numbering between probably twenty and fifty deer 1685 01:41:54,800 --> 01:42:00,960 Speaker 1: per square mile. Bears are very low density animal and 1686 01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:04,719 Speaker 1: being highly selective, and bear hunting is advantageous for everything 1687 01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:07,200 Speaker 1: we've got quotas. I mean, we've got a basically a 1688 01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:11,000 Speaker 1: fourd bear quota in or three bear quota in the Ozarks, 1689 01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:13,400 Speaker 1: and uh, and basically they know when the washingtons are 1690 01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:14,960 Speaker 1: not gonna kill more than a hund fifties. So I 1691 01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:18,839 Speaker 1: mean we are trying to be selective. Do you understand 1692 01:42:19,160 --> 01:42:22,160 Speaker 1: it's a different Yeah, it's a whole. So I want 1693 01:42:22,200 --> 01:42:24,800 Speaker 1: to say that because if somebody just flashed through this, 1694 01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:27,160 Speaker 1: they could go, well, jeez, he's saying this, but he's 1695 01:42:27,160 --> 01:42:30,120 Speaker 1: saying that when he's around this guy. Now, when we 1696 01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:33,320 Speaker 1: talk about baiting, we we talk about the ability to 1697 01:42:33,400 --> 01:42:36,640 Speaker 1: be highly selective if you choose to be, and the 1698 01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:40,120 Speaker 1: ability to just hunt an animal that, for all practical 1699 01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:45,280 Speaker 1: purposes is pretty difficult to hunt. Just spot in stock 1700 01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:49,400 Speaker 1: Out National Forest, and everybody would also know that. My 1701 01:42:49,439 --> 01:42:51,559 Speaker 1: favorite way to hunt a bear is in the Washington 1702 01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:54,120 Speaker 1: National Forest, and those are national forests without bait, just 1703 01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:57,880 Speaker 1: hunting them like deer, it's super tough, is very hard. Yeah, 1704 01:42:58,200 --> 01:43:00,400 Speaker 1: spent a lot of times in mountains and I I 1705 01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,160 Speaker 1: have not seen that many bears. I mean, they're just 1706 01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:06,320 Speaker 1: hard to they are, and and so that's my favorite 1707 01:43:06,320 --> 01:43:08,800 Speaker 1: way to hunt them. But I also see that the 1708 01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:11,240 Speaker 1: benefits of hunting the bear over bay, you know, just 1709 01:43:11,320 --> 01:43:16,360 Speaker 1: a because they're a they're a large carnivore that anyway 1710 01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:18,280 Speaker 1: no shore. I just wanted to put that in there 1711 01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:22,840 Speaker 1: just for anybody that was gonna get after me. And 1712 01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:25,640 Speaker 1: on that note, I've never killed a bear. I've never 1713 01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:27,120 Speaker 1: hunted a bear. Would you shoot a bear if you 1714 01:43:27,160 --> 01:43:29,519 Speaker 1: walk by with your bo please tell me you would. 1715 01:43:30,360 --> 01:43:32,479 Speaker 1: I don't know. Have you ever eaten bear meat? No 1716 01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:36,400 Speaker 1: dog gone it, Johnny Man. I tell you what I've heard. 1717 01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:38,840 Speaker 1: I've heard it's great. I've actually I've heard both sides. 1718 01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:40,840 Speaker 1: I've heard that it's horrible, and then I've heard that 1719 01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:44,680 Speaker 1: it's really it's bears and deer meat and venison. If 1720 01:43:44,720 --> 01:43:47,960 Speaker 1: I gave you a pound of this ground bear meat 1721 01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:50,240 Speaker 1: that that I killed in the wash toiles this year, 1722 01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:52,880 Speaker 1: and you just grounded up, and I mean, well, it's 1723 01:43:52,920 --> 01:43:56,559 Speaker 1: ground meat, so you'd make chili or tacos, or it'd 1724 01:43:56,560 --> 01:43:58,240 Speaker 1: be as good at meat as you've ever eaten in 1725 01:43:58,240 --> 01:44:01,000 Speaker 1: your life, and you wouldn't taste it. You wouldn't taste 1726 01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:03,920 Speaker 1: a tinge of what people say is bad. I think 1727 01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:07,639 Speaker 1: the hype of people saying that bear meat is bad 1728 01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:11,600 Speaker 1: is psychological. Well, but I think it's that way with 1729 01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:14,000 Speaker 1: all wild game. Because people have said they don't like 1730 01:44:14,080 --> 01:44:16,200 Speaker 1: venus and they don't like dear me because it tasts gamy. No, 1731 01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:19,439 Speaker 1: that's that's just how dear taste. It's not gamy. It's 1732 01:44:19,439 --> 01:44:23,439 Speaker 1: just different than beef. And we have domesticated palettes were 1733 01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:25,760 Speaker 1: used to pork, chicken and beef, and so you throw 1734 01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:29,320 Speaker 1: another you know, it's different. It's different, another level of 1735 01:44:29,320 --> 01:44:31,840 Speaker 1: complexity in there, and it throws people off. So I 1736 01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:36,120 Speaker 1: don't disagree with you there, honestly don't. I've had invitations 1737 01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:38,599 Speaker 1: to Bear Hunt, say with family and Newton count either 1738 01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:44,760 Speaker 1: Bears everywhere. You know, It's just something Uh, I don't know, 1739 01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:49,200 Speaker 1: hadn't done, hadn't really wanted to. I don't really know why, 1740 01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:51,439 Speaker 1: and I'm not against it. I don't have a problem 1741 01:44:51,479 --> 01:44:53,960 Speaker 1: with it. Um maybe part of it because I don't 1742 01:44:53,960 --> 01:44:58,760 Speaker 1: want have to pack one out. I don't know. Ye, 1743 01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:03,800 Speaker 1: well that's good, oh man. We close this podcast every 1744 01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:05,600 Speaker 1: time I say the same thing. I say, keep the 1745 01:45:05,640 --> 01:45:07,760 Speaker 1: wild place as wild, because that's where the players live.