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Speaker 1: Discover the forest dot Org. Brought to you by the
Speaker 1: United States Forest Service and the AD Council. My name
Speaker 1: is Paul lie Verstein, and I am a writer and
Speaker 1: director and producer on the Office, and I played Toby.
Speaker 1: I've forgotten. I constantly forget that I've played Hello and welcome.
Speaker 1: Thank you all for being here. This is the Office
Speaker 1: Deep Dive, and I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today
Speaker 1: we have the quadruple maybe quintuple threat, Paul Lieberstein. Now,
Speaker 1: despite the fact that he almost forgot about it. Paul
Speaker 1: is probably most famous for playing dunder Mifflin's h R. Rep.
Speaker 1: Toby Flenderson. Toby was a fantastic character, the character that
Speaker 1: everybody love to hate. Well maybe they just hated. Toby
Speaker 1: was the character that everyone just hated. But let me
Speaker 1: be very clear, Toby was hated Paul. Nobody hated Paul.
Speaker 1: He was one of our original writers. He was a director,
Speaker 1: a produce, sir, and he was our boss. He was
Speaker 1: the show runner on the show from season's five all
Speaker 1: the way through season eight, which well that means I
Speaker 1: had a lot to talk to Paul about. And Paul
Speaker 1: blew my mind with so many things I had never
Speaker 1: heard before, multiple times during this conversation. So I am
Speaker 1: very excited for you all to hear it. So, without
Speaker 1: further ado, the most soft spoken man in television, Paul
Speaker 1: Lieberstein Bubble and Squeak. I love it Bubble and Squeak
Speaker 1: on Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month, lift over from
Speaker 1: the night before. Oh there is great. You've been doing
Speaker 1: a bunch. I've been doing a bunch. Yes, there's no
Speaker 1: way too much about the office, I way too much.
Speaker 1: And this is all off the record, correct, all of it.
Speaker 1: We're not going to record. And we're not we're literally
Speaker 1: not recording any of it. Wow, Hi, Paul, are we rolling? Um?
Speaker 1: I mean you know, we're just we're literally we're just
Speaker 1: having a conversation. Oh you know what I'm saying. Again,
Speaker 1: it's all off the record, nothing's gonna be recorded. Um,
Speaker 1: how are you? How's it work going? All right, Yeah
Speaker 1: it looks yeah. Things are good. Yeah, family, family is kid,
Speaker 1: family is good. Work is sort of so so, but
Speaker 1: family is good. No, No, that's probably accurate. Family it's great.
Speaker 1: I got a lot of joy from family and not
Speaker 1: as much from not as much from Okay, I hear you. Alright,
Speaker 1: So rewind back in your mind like fifteen years. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going back like two thousand four. What were you
Speaker 1: doing in your work, not with your family? I don't
Speaker 1: know what I was doing. I mean held and there
Speaker 1: was the True Care Show, and then Bernie mac Show
Speaker 1: and then Greg the Bunny. I think Greg the Bunny
Speaker 1: was the last show that I had done. You were
Speaker 1: writing on Greg's Bunny? And then were you unemployed? At
Speaker 1: that point? I think I was free? You were free? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Were you aware? I never really think about it as unemployed,
Speaker 1: just free because like our jobs come and go, right,
Speaker 1: So if you think about is unemployed, you can hit
Speaker 1: some very big loads in there. Trust man's just they
Speaker 1: come and go. Yeah, so you were free? Is free? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Were you aware of the British version of it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you are very aware. I loved it. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: aware way before Greg was going to adapt it. I
Speaker 1: mean it would really hit the sweet spot of what
Speaker 1: I loved about writing UM and what I loved about TP.
Speaker 1: What do you love about writing? UM? I do like
Speaker 1: trying to catch real comedy as it seems to exist
Speaker 1: in the world for me, and I like, you know, situations,
Speaker 1: and it's much less people cracking jokes. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of room for people cracking jokes comedy,
Speaker 1: you know, And I enjoy it sometimes, but it's not
Speaker 1: what I'm interested in writing, right, Um, that was really unprofessional.
Speaker 1: I didn't silence my thing, damn it. Um, So life,
Speaker 1: you know, we hear noises, We hear noises that fa
Speaker 1: deal and planes that fly over it's going to stop
Speaker 1: their car? Like, what the hell was that? Um? What
Speaker 1: was your relationship with Greg prior to you coming to
Speaker 1: work on The Office? Um? Well, very strong released it
Speaker 1: was he's my brother in law, right, So you've known
Speaker 1: each other for a while, for a very long time. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And you had worked together on King of the Hell.
Speaker 1: So you were a big fan of the Office. You
Speaker 1: knew it before he came on to adapt it. Were
Speaker 1: you excited about that? Thrilled? And I was thrilled when
Speaker 1: he asked me to be part of it, and I
Speaker 1: was quite nervous about taking it on. But I couldn't
Speaker 1: imagine not taking it onto, because then what am I
Speaker 1: gonna do? Just work on something that is good. Why
Speaker 1: were you nervous? Well, because I loved the British It
Speaker 1: was done at a very high level and you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, most adaptations don't work. But because of your
Speaker 1: relationship with Greg, you didn't know that you would be
Speaker 1: working on the show. But you showed up for some
Speaker 1: of the filming of the pilot. Yeah, just to hang
Speaker 1: out and see how it was going, and just this
Speaker 1: kind of a viewer. Did you give notes? I think
Speaker 1: I suggested a few jokes, but you know, notes seems
Speaker 1: to be a word used when when someone has like
Speaker 1: an official role. Right, oh shit, okay, what are your notes?
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in someone's notes. If they have some ideas,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear their ideas. Right. Um, So when
Speaker 1: did you find out that you would be joining the
Speaker 1: writing staff? I guess after the pilot was picked up.
Speaker 1: He started putting it together and called. They also didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of money, because you know, NBC wasn't
Speaker 1: releasing a lot of money, so he had a real
Speaker 1: scout on staff, and I think I was officially three
Speaker 1: days a week, although I started doing five days just
Speaker 1: because it was fun and there was lots to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would not like coming in and something happened without me.
Speaker 1: It's like, wait a second, No, we just agreed on this,
Speaker 1: so that was better to be part of the whole thing.
Speaker 1: What specific challenges did you feel or did you feel
Speaker 1: like the writer's room felt adapting the show that you know,
Speaker 1: critically and at least with a core group of people,
Speaker 1: was such a huge, colt amazing show. I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: we were really challenged. Everyone there loves the British show.
Speaker 1: I think we just we didn't want to just copy it,
Speaker 1: nor did we want to abandon it. But I remember
Speaker 1: Greg saying early on that he kind of like took
Speaker 1: apart that show like a watch and put it back
Speaker 1: together and he knows exactly how it works, and so
Speaker 1: I think we just grabbed the principles of how it
Speaker 1: worked without grabbing anything else. I mean, there was definitely
Speaker 1: a mirror, like a fuzzy mirror on the English show
Speaker 1: where you could point to a lot of things and
Speaker 1: be like, okay, you know, American version. That's so that's
Speaker 1: the American version of that English ning. But it really wasn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jim and Tim worst incredibly different as we're done,
Speaker 1: and Pam and and you can't even begin to compare
Speaker 1: Ricky and Steve. You know, do you remember feeling a
Speaker 1: pressure to make it our own or americanize it? No? No,
Speaker 1: it's felt the pressure to like live up to the
Speaker 1: quality of their show, right, Um, and the potential embarrassment
Speaker 1: that we faced. Yeah, when did you learn that you
Speaker 1: were also going to be an actor on the show.
Speaker 1: So we we had a while before we started production.
Speaker 1: We were writing and writing, and nothing about it came up.
Speaker 1: It never crossed our mind. But um, I think we
Speaker 1: had the need for someone to come in and do
Speaker 1: one line. And Greg had this idea that he wanted
Speaker 1: to kind of break down the wall between the writers
Speaker 1: and actors, which is like Verry like strong sacred wall,
Speaker 1: this big tradition, and he thought, let's give it a try.
Speaker 1: Let's break this down and you know, have some writers
Speaker 1: see what it's like to be on set and have
Speaker 1: more communication between the writers and the actors. And so
Speaker 1: I got the one line. But we were up all
Speaker 1: night writing and and it was like four in the morning,
Speaker 1: but we finally went home and then I kind of
Speaker 1: stumbled onto the set the next day. I had one line.
Speaker 1: I didn't really know it very well, and I didn't
Speaker 1: know Steve was going to improvise at all, and I
Speaker 1: was so tired when we did it, and I think
Speaker 1: that would like infused the performance quite a bit. And Steve,
Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't the giant yet, you know he was.
Speaker 1: He was kind of another actor on set, So I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it had been like coming in
Speaker 1: season four and having to act with them, right, I
Speaker 1: would have been really scary. But we got to know
Speaker 1: him as we went, so it wasn't so bad. And
Speaker 1: you know, we had such a forgiving as you know,
Speaker 1: filming style. You kind of couldn't make a mistake unless
Speaker 1: you broke, which happened. Which happened, But I didn't break much.
Speaker 1: You didn't. I would just kind of stop and wait
Speaker 1: for someone else to talk, which always happened. Someone would
Speaker 1: jump in. I feel like I remember a big break
Speaker 1: from you when Rain got really close to your face
Speaker 1: and asked you where the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely
Speaker 1: broke yeah. Um There was a moment in uh season one.
Speaker 1: I was barely acting, you know, I was just figuring
Speaker 1: it all out, and we were doing a scene together
Speaker 1: and they kept trying to make me be louder, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know why I would be
Speaker 1: louder because the person I'm talking to is right here.
Speaker 1: Why would I be louder? And you said to me,
Speaker 1: we're sitting next to the refrigerator, which is off. Imagine
Speaker 1: that it's got a really loud hum and you have
Speaker 1: to talk a little louder. Oh okay, that was the
Speaker 1: beginning of acting. So I taught you everything you know? Well,
Speaker 1: you tell me one thing that I know. Yes, yes, Wow.
Speaker 1: It could have given me a little more credit there. No,
Speaker 1: I learned from everybody on set. Oh that's amazing. You
Speaker 1: said it's not traditional and there's this huge wall typically
Speaker 1: between the writing staff and the actors. How do you
Speaker 1: think that that difference in our show changed the dynamic
Speaker 1: it would have been. I don't think I should would
Speaker 1: have come out that way if there if there was
Speaker 1: a strict wall. We were all on the same page
Speaker 1: with the show writers and actors, and we became so
Speaker 1: close with each character and actor and liked them and
Speaker 1: liked writing for them. And that often doesn't happen when
Speaker 1: they're so separate. The writers have one idea what the
Speaker 1: show is that they want to create, and the actors
Speaker 1: have a different and so they're fighting each other on
Speaker 1: set just create without ever talking. They're fighting each other. Right,
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, it was such a it was
Speaker 1: such a good I need to do Often that wall
Speaker 1: is there because of the producers and the director. Now,
Speaker 1: the director typically, you know, you're not supposed to have
Speaker 1: any sector. Is supposed to be the only person talking
Speaker 1: to you about your performance, right, And I get that.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, if you have you know,
Speaker 1: the show goes for a little while. Actors know their
Speaker 1: roles better than the director, the writers know the characters
Speaker 1: better than the director, the DP knows the show better
Speaker 1: than the director. And the director is coming in knowing
Speaker 1: the least about the show of anybody, and we're all
Speaker 1: supposed to like not make the show better and just
Speaker 1: wait for the director to catch It's just it doesn't
Speaker 1: really work completely, right. It's the It's the thing about TV.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a great rule for a great rule
Speaker 1: for a movie, and I mean, you know, you can
Speaker 1: see like as a director too, and we all became directors.
Speaker 1: You know that building someone's performance, you want to tell
Speaker 1: them just a couple of things. You can slowly try
Speaker 1: to push them in a direction, and you know, it
Speaker 1: matters how you say things. And I think we all
Speaker 1: generally respected that boundary while we were building a scene,
Speaker 1: but we all talked about the scenes beforehand and afterwards
Speaker 1: what was going to come up the stories, and when
Speaker 1: things weren't working, we just stopped and we just talked
Speaker 1: to each other. I've taken that with me into the future,
Speaker 1: like I always will show respect to a director, but
Speaker 1: I will walk the video village and have a conversation
Speaker 1: with the writer or the creators on set just about
Speaker 1: the character or or what we're going for. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm able to have a conversation with them and
Speaker 1: get to the core of actually what it is they're yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Which is that a director is just more skilled at
Speaker 1: having that conversation. Yeah, Yeah, I've really I'm really big
Speaker 1: it with intention. Now I'm working on the Space Force
Speaker 1: with Greg Now, so we were doing scenes with Steve
Speaker 1: and I tell him to say whatever he wants and
Speaker 1: just tell the intention, right, I mean, he's gonna say
Speaker 1: whatever he wants anyway. But right, Um, did you feel
Speaker 1: like you had because of your relationship with Greg? Did
Speaker 1: you feel like you had a greater accountability to him
Speaker 1: when you started working Like, did you feel Yeah? I
Speaker 1: think you know, there's always the this I when two
Speaker 1: people are working together and related, there there's there's this
Speaker 1: sense of nepotism, you know, And I felt like I
Speaker 1: had more to prove and I wanted to, for both
Speaker 1: of our sakes, defend against that by just doing more
Speaker 1: and being better, you know. Right, Um, I just want
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the form of the show.
Speaker 1: We began over time to find elements that we felt
Speaker 1: like worked that was going to create, you know, the
Speaker 1: best half hour of television, meaning in diversity day for example,
Speaker 1: like setting that episode in one day, having you know,
Speaker 1: having all episodes were one days most yes, as a rule.
Speaker 1: As a rule, yeah, yeah, and which I astally think
Speaker 1: that's something we broke a handful of times in two
Speaker 1: And why was that important? When we were talking about
Speaker 1: the concept of the show. A documentary crew had come
Speaker 1: there that day for some reason, and everything we shot
Speaker 1: was contained in like their intention and the I know,
Speaker 1: at least the first few times we broke that rule,
Speaker 1: it was because a story lingered to the next day,
Speaker 1: so they followed it. But it was our feeling that
Speaker 1: they weren't there every day catching everything, whereas I think
Speaker 1: towards the end of the show we we said, no,
Speaker 1: maybe they just are there every day. I have never
Speaker 1: heard this before. I swear to god, I've never heard
Speaker 1: this before. Yeah, why why did they come? Because they
Speaker 1: came because they knew, Um, this person was coming to
Speaker 1: talk to Michael about you know, a problem they received,
Speaker 1: you know, the Larry movement, diversity thing, or but there
Speaker 1: there was always that hook. Where were they there even
Speaker 1: if it was never stated or so like, oh today
Speaker 1: it's the Christmas party? Yeah, exactly. You can imagine some
Speaker 1: days were not thing happened and they just didn't come.
Speaker 1: That is Oh my god, that's so awesome. Do we
Speaker 1: have that there? I loved that so much that do
Speaker 1: we have that? Why wouldn't we have it? Are you
Speaker 1: just recording it's this? Sometimes they just as you feel
Speaker 1: like something interesting happening. No, I'm making sure that it's
Speaker 1: clear from you. Um okay, So what did the Cold
Speaker 1: Opens give us done? Um? What did that allow us
Speaker 1: to do Aside from that sort of core structure as
Speaker 1: we as we began to do those, I guess that
Speaker 1: it allowed us to take on something of a much
Speaker 1: smaller scope, a pure thing like you're bringing in Chile.
Speaker 1: It was not going to be an episode. It was
Speaker 1: a small thing, simple thing. One of the office workers
Speaker 1: brings in some food and here's our little he's fills
Speaker 1: it and there it is, right, I mean, side note,
Speaker 1: it is by far the thing that people talk to
Speaker 1: me about the most. Oh, there is no question. How
Speaker 1: do you feel about that? Um? I thought it was
Speaker 1: a beautiful moment. I never thought it would be this.
Speaker 1: It was a humongous departure from almost anything that was
Speaker 1: ever done on the show. It was kind of controversial
Speaker 1: at the time. They were some people who didn't want
Speaker 1: to do it. Well, it's only one character for an
Speaker 1: extended monologue, largely played in voice over. Yes, that ends
Speaker 1: in that. And they had shower. I showered and showered
Speaker 1: and scrubbed and just like throwing out dirty towels out
Speaker 1: of the shower to the wardrobe people. We filmed it
Speaker 1: obviously at the end of the day, and Oscar and
Speaker 1: Angela and I had a dinner that night at Mastros.
Speaker 1: We would do this occasionally, we would go out and
Speaker 1: have a nice dinner and just talk and be human
Speaker 1: beings instead of accountants. And I walked in and all
Speaker 1: I could do is smell chili all over my hands.
Speaker 1: Just it just it was just in my skin. Um,
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Speaker 1: So you think about the office as this place of
Speaker 1: ordinary stasis. But to me, what Greg and you did
Speaker 1: throughout the show was constantly change something which I think
Speaker 1: created a kinetic energy that kept spinning through. Was that
Speaker 1: something that you were thinking about at the time, like
Speaker 1: trying to keep stirring that pot. Yeah? Absolutely, I mean
Speaker 1: I always thought putting Steve in with new blood and
Speaker 1: a new energy was like worth six episodes of just
Speaker 1: great comedy. Just every new person that you put next
Speaker 1: to him. So like Idris Elba, Charles Minor just so
Speaker 1: yes exactly, you know, who's clearly not a comedy guy,
Speaker 1: hasn't done comedy before or since. But that energy next
Speaker 1: to Steve was amazing, you know, and he just it's
Speaker 1: what happens to him, you know, and he becomes a
Speaker 1: different pars Cathy Bates next to Steve, Holly Amy Ryan. Um,
Speaker 1: how do you feel like, in addition to those things,
Speaker 1: kind of leaning into more of the supporting cast, fleshing
Speaker 1: out those stories. How did that help keep the dynamic? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was the key. I think. You know, this idea
Speaker 1: that there's five characters on the show was this age
Speaker 1: old idea. You know, sitcoms have been following that pattern
Speaker 1: for like as long as I've been watching them sixty years,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, but there's no recent for it. And
Speaker 1: I'd say in the beginning, you know, it was five
Speaker 1: plus side characters, but that didn't last long. Everyone was
Speaker 1: a character and pretty equal. Um. And then taking turns
Speaker 1: and like saying okay, and again a lot of it was,
Speaker 1: you know, because Steve was the comedy Michael was the
Speaker 1: comedy driver. So picking the two, picking two characters to
Speaker 1: then create an episode around, say Okay, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be Michael Kevin or a Michael Stanley. You know what?
Speaker 1: Did I stutter? Or we could just move that around
Speaker 1: and kind of take turns and we would get a
Speaker 1: completely different, new, fresh dynamic going. Right. How do you
Speaker 1: feel like the different relationships we move into kind of
Speaker 1: the love relationships. How do you feel like that made
Speaker 1: the show different than just a comedy because Jim and
Speaker 1: Pam was almost always played straight. Huh yeah, well it
Speaker 1: was charged, you know, so I guess it always felt
Speaker 1: straight because that's what you were paying attention to. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: something like a relationship. There's just more at stake, and
Speaker 1: it's very relatable. So I think people are I think
Speaker 1: they could be having a comic conversation and you don't
Speaker 1: even hear it sometimes, right, interesting. I mean they had
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, they had no shortage of
Speaker 1: like pranks on Dwight, and that was a dynamic taken
Speaker 1: from the British that these two are going to connect
Speaker 1: with each other over pranking Dwight and I think there
Speaker 1: was a ton of comedy and us. But what you
Speaker 1: saw you didn't register his comedy because what you really
Speaker 1: registerous love story. Right. There's another relationship that I think
Speaker 1: was maybe my favorite in the show. Will you play
Speaker 1: that clip? Why are you the way that you are? Honestly,
Speaker 1: every time I try to do something fun or exciting,
Speaker 1: you make it not that way. I hate so much
Speaker 1: about the things that you choose to be. I mean
Speaker 1: that when was the idea for that born It wasn't
Speaker 1: born in diversity. Steve wrote that speech. Yeah, he hated
Speaker 1: And when I was watching some of those things last night,
Speaker 1: I mean his face anytime he is looking at you
Speaker 1: and angry at you in a way is completely trans
Speaker 1: He almost looks like a different person, and he's his energy.
Speaker 1: And at one point he's like, I hate your lemon
Speaker 1: head or it's just like crazy, it's like I'm a
Speaker 1: Nazi and he thinks he's doing a service to the
Speaker 1: world by hating me. Well that, well, that's the other
Speaker 1: famous one, right, Like if I had two bullets and
Speaker 1: there was Hitler, Ben Laden and Toby, I would use
Speaker 1: both bullets and kill Toby to it. I think it
Speaker 1: happened in Meredith's birthday and we all had to sign
Speaker 1: that card. So I just had to go in and said, oh,
Speaker 1: can I have a card and sign something really quickly
Speaker 1: and leave, and he would just watch me do it
Speaker 1: the whole time, take after takeing he was just standing
Speaker 1: there watching and he told me afterwards said he felt
Speaker 1: like the hate for me just just well up inside
Speaker 1: him during these takes. So it was so from that moment.
Speaker 1: Is that why you guys? Decided to write that story
Speaker 1: in or to continue that. You know, a lot of
Speaker 1: it he would come from. I think the power of
Speaker 1: it came from Steve, you know, and he would always
Speaker 1: do more. Even starting with Diversity Day, he was just
Speaker 1: supposed to say he would, you know, get out or
Speaker 1: something like that, but he did more. He relished the
Speaker 1: moment and played with it. And I think he continues
Speaker 1: to do that. And really, you know, when we had
Speaker 1: these thirty six minute cuts and had to decide what
Speaker 1: would stay, when Steve loved something, he the performance would
Speaker 1: be amazing. And I think that's what helped so much
Speaker 1: of the Toby Michael stuff stay right, just his pure
Speaker 1: power and just the pure power of his like, yeah
Speaker 1: being being there, corral genius. Right. Um, what was What's
Speaker 1: the episode that you were most proud of writing? That's
Speaker 1: a good question. Money was the first hour one that
Speaker 1: I did and I directed it as well, and Greg
Speaker 1: gave me total freedom. I ran the rewrite and everything.
Speaker 1: I think that was the one where I like totally
Speaker 1: had control every line of it and I love doing that.
Speaker 1: I'm really I don't know, I'm really proud of I
Speaker 1: got nominated for Directors Guild Award for or an Emmy
Speaker 1: for directing one. That one was a really big deal
Speaker 1: of me because just where in my career it fell right.
Speaker 1: What was different about your episodes? Was there a particular
Speaker 1: strength or interest that you had? Um? I liked setting
Speaker 1: up very simple situations where people were in basic conflict
Speaker 1: and really just letting things play with very like natural
Speaker 1: dialogue that I don't know. I think. I think that's
Speaker 1: probably a part of a lot of my episodes. If
Speaker 1: I go back right in the writer's room, would you, um,
Speaker 1: would you each have assignments based on what your strengths
Speaker 1: are or that was irrelevant? I mean, I don't know that.
Speaker 1: We would work on a story for a while before
Speaker 1: it had a writer, and I guess in the signing
Speaker 1: of a writer there was thought to who's going to
Speaker 1: do this? Well? Okay, well because you ran the show
Speaker 1: for a while. We're talking about more about that a minute,
Speaker 1: So you were assigning the writers to the particularly when
Speaker 1: I was yeah, right, so would you say, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a b J episode and so b J you'd
Speaker 1: write this or well I'd never say it. No, we're
Speaker 1: not out loowed, But but is that what you would think? Yeah? Definitely,
Speaker 1: v J. Was um, it's like one of the strongest
Speaker 1: joke writers I've ever worked with. I mean, he does
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of strikes. Everyone had a
Speaker 1: lot of overall strengths, but his his sense of the
Speaker 1: joke was extremely sharp. And certain episodes, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of require that, right. What about Mindy, You know, Mindy,
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have given her like an episode that
Speaker 1: had like it was based on lots of twists and
Speaker 1: turns and and big plot things, because she that was
Speaker 1: not her interest and people would excel when they're following
Speaker 1: their interests, you know. I mean she obviously she loved
Speaker 1: the romantic comedy, but it wasn't just that she loved
Speaker 1: but she wrote the Dundee's, right, he wrote the Dundee's
Speaker 1: she I mean, she I don't know where to begin.
Speaker 1: She a ton of them. Yeah, And when I think
Speaker 1: about Mindy wrote the Christmas episode where You're sitting on
Speaker 1: Michael's lab, and I think that goes to the kind
Speaker 1: of the heart of some of the things that she
Speaker 1: did so amazingly, which was like, just find something that's
Speaker 1: funny and really play it out. And Greg loved that too,
Speaker 1: and that's one of the reasons today, which that's a
Speaker 1: great team. Um So the writers strike happens season four. Um,
Speaker 1: do you remember anyway specifically that the office was tied
Speaker 1: to that strike, And you know, we were really having
Speaker 1: a moment in season four. We were very well respected.
Speaker 1: There was a lot to lose, and as it happened,
Speaker 1: the fact that Greg went out with the writers and
Speaker 1: struck set a tone for all the showrunners, you know,
Speaker 1: and it was because of them, and we could read
Speaker 1: it online and see what they were saying. The fact
Speaker 1: that he kind of led the charge for shore runners
Speaker 1: to stick by the writers and shut down the shows
Speaker 1: because technically he could have worked. Um, I don't know
Speaker 1: that it's I mean, it was such a weird murky
Speaker 1: area rum. He could make an argument that he would
Speaker 1: have been on solid ground to continue to produce the shows.
Speaker 1: And you could also make an argument that you know,
Speaker 1: he had he had responsibility to to as a writer,
Speaker 1: to to stop writing, because both were possible. He had
Speaker 1: a choice to make, you know, and a lot of
Speaker 1: show runners were very concerned about their shows and they
Speaker 1: do the best. They had to stockpile scripts and I
Speaker 1: think you know, the fact that Greg was striking was
Speaker 1: a big part of Steve not crossing the picket line,
Speaker 1: and that was what brought the the office to stop.
Speaker 1: My biggest lesson from the strike was, you know, I
Speaker 1: had taken notes from a lot of directors as I
Speaker 1: was studying to be one. So we were in the
Speaker 1: middle of Dinner Party, we were about to shoot it,
Speaker 1: and one director scouted it. It was as as if
Speaker 1: like things were being presented to him and he was
Speaker 1: figuring out how he was going to shoot it. And
Speaker 1: and then we came back that event that director was
Speaker 1: not available and Paul Fi. We got Paul Fi to
Speaker 1: direct Dinner Party, and he came in and did the
Speaker 1: exact same scout, but bent that place. He came in
Speaker 1: with a vision and bent the place to to suit it.
Speaker 1: He was like, paint these walls and you know. And
Speaker 1: it was then that I learned what a scout was,
Speaker 1: how how I needed to approach a scout as a director.
Speaker 1: I should fully imagine this space working for me in
Speaker 1: every possible way I can and say it. And I
Speaker 1: need to imagine it now in the scout, because three
Speaker 1: hours from now it's too late. I didn't tell the
Speaker 1: people what to do. Amazing, Um, how did you feel
Speaker 1: about when Greg decided to leave and go developed parks
Speaker 1: and recreation. I know he was never gone gone, but
Speaker 1: how did you feel And when did you find out
Speaker 1: that you and Jen we're going to take the show over. Yeah?
Speaker 1: He and I just kind of went on a walk
Speaker 1: on Satici and he told me h and asked me
Speaker 1: if I wanted to do jan. I don't thought it
Speaker 1: was a big honor. Did you say yes right away? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Definitely right. I thought it was pretty pretty amazing. Were
Speaker 1: you didn't scare you? Definitely? Sure? No, of course. Um,
Speaker 1: So what how did the writer's room change just pragmatically
Speaker 1: with with Greg and Mike both leaving. Um, Jen and
Speaker 1: I worked together so well, and we could we could
Speaker 1: kind of work together or take turns, kind of covering
Speaker 1: for each other when it thinks got really late, and
Speaker 1: we both liked each other's writing so much that it
Speaker 1: just made it easy. Right. I remember that it didn't
Speaker 1: feel to me as though much had changed, because it
Speaker 1: wasn't like he was gone gone. It wasn't goodbye Greg. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think he really wanted to to be the
Speaker 1: face of that too, so he was he would be
Speaker 1: on the cause of the network. He would be at
Speaker 1: all the table reads and the places where he would
Speaker 1: typically interact. He kept interacting. He was definitely worried how
Speaker 1: people would view it. But you know, at the same time,
Speaker 1: like Jan and I, I loved Greg's writing and it
Speaker 1: wasn't like you know, and I've been on a lot
Speaker 1: of shows that you know, when someone goes there, there
Speaker 1: could be the satage. Finally we get to do it
Speaker 1: all the way. Now we're really gonna pick up this show.
Speaker 1: You know people are going to see the difference here.
Speaker 1: Um No, that wasn't it at all. We loved Gregs writing,
Speaker 1: We loved what he did, and we just wanted to
Speaker 1: keep doing that. Even though he gave me authority. I
Speaker 1: wanted him to like the show. You know, this was
Speaker 1: his show and after table, if he didn't like it,
Speaker 1: I would change it. I don't think I ever just said,
Speaker 1: well I like it, so we're doing it right. We
Speaker 1: would always find the overlap of where we both like
Speaker 1: the show. Do you feel like you have different sensibilities
Speaker 1: are generally similar? We have a big overlap, but then
Speaker 1: we also have harrus where we don't overlap. What what
Speaker 1: would you say the biggest thing in the non overlap is.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's not super clear to me, but
Speaker 1: I know I used to definitely feel much more comfortable
Speaker 1: going a lot darker than he would. That's exactly what
Speaker 1: I was going to say. Yeah, I could go dark.
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Speaker 1: So when did you find out that Steve was not
Speaker 1: going to come back. Did you feel confident that the
Speaker 1: show could continue or were you not sure? I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I thought there was a lot of good reasons why
Speaker 1: we could keep going, and you know, we had done
Speaker 1: so much. I mean, he was seven seasons. I just
Speaker 1: tho there were some a lot left so the show
Speaker 1: could either find a new direction or it wouldn't work.
Speaker 1: And we talked so much about what kind of new
Speaker 1: directions it could be. But then ultimately I wanted to
Speaker 1: keep going because we had a great cast, and that's
Speaker 1: the decision not to bring in somebody else huge from
Speaker 1: the outside and try to do a big gorilla, which
Speaker 1: we had talked about too. But we brought in James Spader,
Speaker 1: we did, but he was part time and it revolved
Speaker 1: and then we and then we did Katherine take for
Speaker 1: a while in that job. I think we were we
Speaker 1: were finding it. It was not easy in season eight
Speaker 1: to figure out what the glue of the show was, right,
Speaker 1: it had a strong core before it was there was
Speaker 1: a guy who wanted more from this group than the
Speaker 1: group could give and almost everything came out of that. Right.
Speaker 1: I had a discussion I think it was with in a.
Speaker 1: I think it was her. If it wasn't her, we
Speaker 1: can change this. But I had a discussion with somebody
Speaker 1: who talked about one of their biggest disappointments or regrets
Speaker 1: in the show was that it wasn't there wasn't enough
Speaker 1: confidence given to the people that we had, feeling like
Speaker 1: that we had to bring somebody else in. I think
Speaker 1: what I said, which I can sympathize with the decision,
Speaker 1: was that at that point, nobody who was there felt
Speaker 1: like a boss. Yeah. And the other thing was we
Speaker 1: were getting a lot of pressure from the network. So
Speaker 1: the network, who had historically been behind us so much,
Speaker 1: just changed hands, just changed hands to Comcast just as
Speaker 1: Steve was leaving, and they wanted a big gorilla. They
Speaker 1: wanted a big star to come in and take it over,
Speaker 1: which we fought. I how to say, like they didn't
Speaker 1: even know all the characters names at that point, they
Speaker 1: weren't really following the show. I think we were just
Speaker 1: a disappointing line item at the time. And then all
Speaker 1: of TV was losing its ratings, all of TV, right,
Speaker 1: and we didn't know how much of a hit we
Speaker 1: would take with Steve going um, but we took a
Speaker 1: pretty big one and they wanted those numbers up. But
Speaker 1: at the time, I mean, what we know now is
Speaker 1: that was happening everywhere and everywhere with if he had
Speaker 1: stayed right Um, there was no way to know. But
Speaker 1: that was behind a lot of the pressure we were getting.
Speaker 1: I was kidding. Was there a specific name that Comcast
Speaker 1: was wanting to take over? Um. Lots of names were floated, Julia,
Speaker 1: Louis Dreyfus, James Gandelfini, someone who actually met with to
Speaker 1: explore it. But again, that was going to be in
Speaker 1: the in the part time range because I really did
Speaker 1: not want to put a new person in the office
Speaker 1: in Michael's chair. I just felt like, we're never going
Speaker 1: to get that right and we should just diffuse that
Speaker 1: thing and focus on everyone. We had interesting what I
Speaker 1: was doing, and you know, even when people came in,
Speaker 1: they weren't the focus. No, absolutely, I'm surprised. I'm surprised. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Jenna's kind of I can't remember who it was, but
Speaker 1: I'll tell you so you can get mad later. I'm
Speaker 1: not mad, just really, really really hurt. You know, Um,
Speaker 1: any personal recollections from when Steve left. Oh yeah, it
Speaker 1: was so well, we were all so tight, you know.
Speaker 1: I remember like giving it like a little toast to
Speaker 1: him and getting choked up after his last scene. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was gonna miss him a lot and did. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all did as a person, as a person, yeah,
Speaker 1: and as the genius that he was. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: think it was you know, our experience of doing the
Speaker 1: show was the people and the talent was you know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot to do with the product. He was
Speaker 1: a great guy who set a tone on you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know that the first person to say this,
Speaker 1: but he set this tone that it was really important
Speaker 1: to treat people well and everyone was important. But he
Speaker 1: was also just really fun to have her own. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think we all just we're said to him, go yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: So how much were you aware of what Greg's vision
Speaker 1: for the entire series would be? Like it was I
Speaker 1: remember hearing early on, so I know you did that
Speaker 1: there was a beginning, you know, the documentary crew comes,
Speaker 1: there was a middle, and that Greg had a specific
Speaker 1: idea for what the would be. How early on were
Speaker 1: you aware of that very you know, those ideas were
Speaker 1: out really well, you know, season one and two. You
Speaker 1: need these ideas, especially season one and then and be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's an idea for season eight, that's an idea for
Speaker 1: you know that in our last season, you know, and
Speaker 1: like breaking the fourth while in the documentary crew um
Speaker 1: and including that, that was an idea that was early
Speaker 1: that we just put We knew that was going to
Speaker 1: be at the end put away. Yeah right, we knew
Speaker 1: it blew up the show, right, And was there ever
Speaker 1: any talk of not doing that but being like e
Speaker 1: er or something where it would just keep going forever.
Speaker 1: Was there ever any real talk of that just keep
Speaker 1: show going forever? Yeah? Totally. Where did you fall on that?
Speaker 1: I feel it was not possible to make this transition idea,
Speaker 1: have to slowly bring people on and shift focus. Everyone
Speaker 1: would have to really be on the same page for
Speaker 1: to want that to happen, and not everybody wanted that
Speaker 1: to happen, and Greg really wanted to finish the story.
Speaker 1: And you can't finish the story with everybody gone, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, you would not have had a satisfying ending
Speaker 1: if after twenty if the show is still on now
Speaker 1: and after another five ten years, we go, okay, well,
Speaker 1: now we're going to break the fourth wall, the the
Speaker 1: kind of Survivor element where we're just if we are
Speaker 1: just in season eighteen right now or whatever it would be,
Speaker 1: this show wouldn't be as regarded as well as it is,
Speaker 1: and Survivor would probably be regarded higher than it is
Speaker 1: if it had ended after ten, right. Was there any
Speaker 1: noticeable change in Greg coming back full time for that
Speaker 1: last season and your roles changing again? Well, I spent
Speaker 1: that year mostly trying to get the spin off going,
Speaker 1: writing that, casting that going, focusing on that toone, so
Speaker 1: I really wasn't a daily part of the writer's room
Speaker 1: season nine, season nine, Yeah, yeah, there was a part
Speaker 1: of me that was like that I had kind of
Speaker 1: finished in a way, but you were still writing, right,
Speaker 1: We're still acting in every episode and no, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: aside from writing the Farm, that's the only episode I
Speaker 1: wrote that year writing and directing the Farm, I think
Speaker 1: was the only time I directed that year too. How
Speaker 1: disappointed were you that that that did not go forward?
Speaker 1: Very disappointed And I think it would have been a
Speaker 1: really big hit. Why did it not? Again, this is
Speaker 1: the shift over to the the new management comcasts. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't see how someone could not give the farm
Speaker 1: a chance, right, to not give the Dwight spin off
Speaker 1: like a chance, like maybe what if it does find itself?
Speaker 1: You know? Interesting? So for you, it was really about
Speaker 1: Comcast comes in and buys and doesn't have the seven
Speaker 1: year history with the show is essentially coming in now
Speaker 1: as Steve is gone and the ratings are going down
Speaker 1: and you're finding yourself creatively, and so there hasn't been
Speaker 1: an investment or a buy in exactly. Yeah, so really
Speaker 1: we needed it Kevin Riley. Yeah, we needed a Kevin
Speaker 1: Riley to be there at the time, to be at Comcast,
Speaker 1: someone that saw what could happen. Yeah. Um, why do
Speaker 1: you think that the show has become now the most
Speaker 1: watch show in television five six years after we've shot anything?
Speaker 1: Is that true? The most Yeah? Fifty two point something
Speaker 1: billion minutes watched. That's a hundred thousand people watching it
Speaker 1: from the moment they're born until they die, living an
Speaker 1: average life. Wow. Are they doing that to some people?
Speaker 1: I think they should. It's mean, I mean, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: have a diverse life, but potentially a happy life. Um.
Speaker 1: Do you feel that the show in your interactions with
Speaker 1: people that it's it's bigger today than it was definitely,
Speaker 1: definitely yeah, and going younger. Yeah, why do you think
Speaker 1: that is? Why is it connecting with people maybe even
Speaker 1: more so now today? In a way it was built
Speaker 1: for streaming. I don't know, there's the it's a very
Speaker 1: hard you know, there's a phenomenon out there. It's very
Speaker 1: hard to explain. But streaming one you kind of pay attention,
Speaker 1: and a lot of shows you're not given any permission
Speaker 1: to pay attention because they're so forced down your throat um.
Speaker 1: Streaming is lightly serialized, like the best of streaming is
Speaker 1: lightly serialized. And we were, you know, with no knowledge
Speaker 1: of what streaming was. That that was just how we
Speaker 1: thought the show would be best. We told stories over
Speaker 1: years and we we really like the mini arcs. I
Speaker 1: don't know, as a viewer, if I'm watching something streaming
Speaker 1: and it's it's too I have to wait too long
Speaker 1: for a conclusion, I get really angry and I'm out.
Speaker 1: We found these six arcs and thirteen arcs. You know
Speaker 1: that we did a lot of three six you know,
Speaker 1: we had depending on what it was. But like Michael
Speaker 1: Scott Paper Company, you know where he takes a journey
Speaker 1: over six episode, which is perfect for streaming. It's very
Speaker 1: satisfying to watch six episodes in the beginning something to
Speaker 1: the end of it, and then you know, by the
Speaker 1: end of it, we're back to We're back to where
Speaker 1: we were, even though we're playing a giant dark with
Speaker 1: Michael Scott, you know that takes seven years to go
Speaker 1: through about him becoming kind of a whole person. So
Speaker 1: I think I think we're built for this platform. We're
Speaker 1: built for today really well. So in the last line
Speaker 1: of the show, Pam says this line about there's beauty
Speaker 1: and ordinary things. It being Greg's episode, who wrote it,
Speaker 1: I have to assume that that's what he thought the
Speaker 1: show was about, that there is beauty in ordinary things.
Speaker 1: What did you think it was about? But yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess that I thought there was I was probably a
Speaker 1: little more focused on there's there's comedy and ordinary things.
Speaker 1: I mean, and and I know he felt both, but um,
Speaker 1: you know, the the commody that comes from very small,
Speaker 1: ordinary conflicts is my favorite stuff. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: when we hit that, I think we were at our past.
Speaker 1: You know, right, what are you most proud of? I mean,
Speaker 1: you led almost half of the run. I'm most proud
Speaker 1: of what we were as an aggregate. You know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't a single moment that I'm more proud of than others,
Speaker 1: although I'm very proud of a talking head in which
Speaker 1: you did not know the alphabet LEMN. No. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I mean. That's what I mean. That little glint,
Speaker 1: that little glinty in your eye. I go, here is
Speaker 1: something I haven't I haven't ever revealed this before ever,
Speaker 1: but I remember you saying to me. I mean, it
Speaker 1: was just one of those moments about like we were
Speaker 1: getting towards the end. We're up in your office and
Speaker 1: you said to me, we need you because Steve is leaving.
Speaker 1: That only leaves us, Dwight. We need someone to do
Speaker 1: the really really dumb things. Sorry, we need somebody to
Speaker 1: do the really really dumb things now that Michael was gone,
Speaker 1: as Dwight is there, we need someone to do the
Speaker 1: things that are bigger and or dumber than Dwight. No, okay,
Speaker 1: thanks boss, Yeah, yeah, um, but you This is sort
Speaker 1: of a side note, but I'm most thankful for all
Speaker 1: of the relationships that I made, and I'm thankful to
Speaker 1: you that you trusted me and gave me an opportunity
Speaker 1: to direct. It was a no brainer for me. Really,
Speaker 1: you do an awesome job because I'm smarter than everybody else. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I play dumb but actually smart. No. You uh, you're
Speaker 1: a highly you're highly trained actor, right, You're very skilled
Speaker 1: and trained, and you knew a lot about acting, and
Speaker 1: we were an actor's show, right, So I thought that
Speaker 1: was a no brainer. You know, I knew you would
Speaker 1: do an amazing job. Well, thank you. I look forward
Speaker 1: to the phone call to come director your next show. Um, dude,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you so much coming in. It's so fun
Speaker 1: to talk about this. I was with Steve yesterday and
Speaker 1: somehow we just started talking about Michael Scott for so
Speaker 1: long on the office days, it's fun to do. I
Speaker 1: didn't want it for a long time. It's like, come on,
Speaker 1: put this shot of bed um. But it feels good
Speaker 1: now go back and talk about it. Yeah. Well, I
Speaker 1: think that you and I hope this doesn't sound weird.
Speaker 1: I feel like you're the unsung hero of the show
Speaker 1: that you don't get the credit that you deserve for
Speaker 1: your vision and innovation that happened during the time that
Speaker 1: you were there. So I want you to know that
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Yeah, no one said that. I do
Speaker 1: think you're an idiot. Well yeah, it takes away some
Speaker 1: of the good feelings. Okay, um, but thank you for
Speaker 1: coming in, Thanks for having me here. Oh good, there
Speaker 1: you have it. That is Paul Lieberstein. Thank you Paul
Speaker 1: for sitting down with me. You know how much I
Speaker 1: love you. And I don't know is it too late
Speaker 1: to start a petition to revamp the farm. I'll ask
Speaker 1: Rain if he's free. Uh. In any case, thank you
Speaker 1: all for listening. I absolutely love sharing these interviews with you,
Speaker 1: so I hope you're loving them. To have a great week, everybody.
Speaker 1: The office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
Speaker 1: me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our
Speaker 1: senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producer is Emily Carr,
Speaker 1: and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man
Speaker 1: in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble
Speaker 1: and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
Speaker 1: the episode was mixed by seth Olansky. Hello, Hello, Hi,
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I want to come through the screen
Speaker 1: and hug you. Hey, everybody, Jessica's are here, also known
Speaker 1: as Vanessa Abrams on Gossip Girl. I am so excited
Speaker 1: to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called
Speaker 1: XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all
Speaker 1: about Gossip Girl. I'll chat with some of the cast
Speaker 1: crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped
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Speaker 1: All Right, I made Westwick, I played Chuck Bass. Is
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