1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Fry and 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about Mary Elizabeth Lease 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: this week, the mixed bag that is Mary Elizabeth Lease, 5 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: which makes me want to talk about a subject I 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: don't want to say it's near and dear to my 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: heart because I don't like it. But a thing that 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: grinds my gears and is a soapbox, and that is 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: charity racism. Okay, because there are definitely people who are 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: willing to ignore when someone does really racist stuff if 11 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: they're like, but they do so much good charity work. 12 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like that's happening here. Listen. Have 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: I gotten in a fight the socials with a friend 14 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: of one of my relatives And when I talked to 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: that relative and said, what the hell, dude, that person's 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: super racist, and they're like, they raise money for charities 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: that help people who are And I'm like, no, that 18 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: there's still racists that doesn't include them from it and 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: it makes me furious. But what's really weird here? And 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: we didn't get into it in this show because we 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: didn't talk a lot about Mary's law practice is that 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 1: she did, like her first case was a very prominent 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: case where she represented a black man and argued in 24 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: ways that you would think would not be the same 25 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: person that also said, you know, people of color, black people, 26 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: and Asian people are inferior to us, so we gotta 27 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: be the boss of them. Like I'm like, how do 28 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: these two people inhabit the same body. It's so weird 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: to me, but also so common that I know it 30 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,919 Speaker 1: happens all the time. She's such a pill in some ways, 31 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: and I want her to be great and I want 32 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: to be like, yes, Mary Elizabeth, but I'm constantly like, oh, 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: Mary Elizabeth sush. It's kind of like if you've ever 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: had a politician where you're like, I really like what 35 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: you're saying. Oh you kept talking like those have happened 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: to me this Yeah, this is our last episode recording 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: session of the year twenty twenty four. And so this 38 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: morning when I was looking over that line, I was 39 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: also like distracted, kind of pulled in a bunch of 40 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: directions getting everything ready to you know, have the year end. 41 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: And so my initial read through had been sort of cursory, 42 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: and when I got to the long quoted passages from 43 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: the book. I just sort of was like, Okay, that's 44 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: a book quote and didn't really thoroughly read it. And 45 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: then I got to the end of the episode. The 46 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: first time around, it was like, huh, I like, I 47 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: feel like there was some problematic stuff in there, but 48 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: not enough that like, not the amount that would have 49 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: warranted the kind of discussion at the very beginning of 50 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: the episode, right. And then on read through number two, 51 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: when I actually read those quotes, I was like, Oh 52 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: my goodness. I literally so the place that I read 53 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: that book is an online source that's in the source list, 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: and the way that it displays it when you're actually 55 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: in the text of the book. It doesn't have like 56 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: a header that says you know Mary Lease and the 57 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: book title. It's just kind of all the text, right, 58 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: And I literally kept going back and forth and being like, 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: is this someone else's book? Like this get because this 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: is messed up. Both filed this is messed up. But 61 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: then when I was reading the biography by brookspear Or, 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: which is really the one super comprehensive one there is 63 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: and I'll talk about that again in a minute, she 64 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this gets real. Weird and super colonizing, 65 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, that is in fact the 66 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: actual text I was reading, but it was very it 67 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: was so discordant. Yeah. Well, and in addition to that part, 68 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: the idea of like we'll just make everybody be farmers 69 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: and then there won't be any you know, alcohol misuse 70 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: or crime or whatever like that also has problems. Oh yeah, 71 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: and it's like similar to prison reformers who were like, 72 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: we will send people to these penitentiaries where they will 73 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: be penitent and they will do hard work and like 74 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: that that will make it all better. Yeah, that also 75 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: has problems. Yeah, there are so many presumptions of superiority, 76 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: like you know, the correct way of life, you know 77 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: what is correct. It's like even if that is coming 78 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 1: from what somebody believes is an altruistic point of view, 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: those are exactly the kinds of things that so really 80 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: gross stuff down the road, including thinking that we should colonize. 81 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: As I said at the top of the episode, most 82 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: of the quick biographies you read of her seemed to 83 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: completely ignore all of this. And I literally don't know 84 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: if it is a case where they're like I didn't 85 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: read that book. It's so long and Windy and Meandery, 86 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: and it is real Meandery. It's like she invokes historical 87 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: stories now and again to like support her point of view, 88 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: and you know, likens she was a very good order, 89 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: but I think in the long form of a book 90 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: she felt maybe a little whelmed. I could be wrong, 91 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: That's just my supposition, but it is super weird. There's 92 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: not a lot of close reading or acknowledgment of that 93 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: outside of pretty heavy hitting biography study. And that is 94 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: a little bit of a problem in and of itself 95 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: because as I mentioned that Brook spear Or biography is 96 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: the most comprehensive, and prior to that, there had only 97 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: been one that was written quite a bit earlier that 98 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: did not seem to apply the same rigorous standards of 99 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: like research and citing primary sources versus secondary, etc. And 100 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: the problem is that that biography, which is the people's 101 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: joan of arc Mary Elizabeth Lee's Gendered Politics and Populist 102 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: Party Politics in Gilded Age America, is as expensive as 103 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: a textbook. It's a really expensive book. It didn't it 104 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: was published by international academic publishers, so it is in 105 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: that sort of textbook framework of cost. Right, Like I 106 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: got the kindle edition of it, which are usually much 107 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: less pricey, and it was more than eighty dollars, Like, 108 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: it's a lot. So I think for a lot of people, 109 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: especially people who are maybe even doing biographical research that 110 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: maybe can't get directly to a primary source or look 111 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: at public records, something like that is often going to 112 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: be out of reach because that is a lot to 113 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: spend on one source. Yeah, and even even if you 114 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: do something like in her library alone, a lot of 115 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: libraries are not going to have a lot of libraries 116 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: are not going to have it, and the ones that do, like, 117 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: there could be costs involved with getting it, definitely, there's 118 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: going to be time involved, yeah, in getting it. Yeah. Yeah, 119 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: So I mean I think that has unfortunately been a 120 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: barrier to people really getting the full scope of the 121 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: things that she advocated for. Also, i mean, let's face it, 122 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: it's more of a feel good story to be like 123 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: she fought the man she was. She was, you know, 124 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: trying to be a voice for impoverished farmers who had 125 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: gotten completely screwed over by you know, the industrialists and 126 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: Wall Street, which she did, but like problems. Yeah, the 127 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: stuff that got said about her in the press, though, 128 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: I don't know how she bore it in some pieces, 129 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: Like a lot of it was just like the same 130 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: kind of petty, gross stuff that you would see about 131 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: someone today if they were trying to lobby against very powerful, 132 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: wealthy forces. Right. There were a lot of kind of 133 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: insinuations that she was the man in her relationship with Charles, 134 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: and that he must be very effeminate and like just 135 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: super heteronormative, stupid and stuff, and also like a lot 136 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: of a lot of kind of gendered attacks like that 137 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: that she couldn't possibly be a real woman, and just 138 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: like stupid gross things that are easy to dismiss as well, 139 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: that's stupid, But like she was getting it from all 140 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: quarters all the time, Like even though she had a 141 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: lot of supporters, she had just as many detractors who 142 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: were just as happy to be loud about it. So 143 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: it's a wild thing. But this is also one of 144 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: those episodes that is both depressing and heartening for me 145 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: because it's like, aside from the fact that who I 146 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: really hung up about this, let's go colonize things she 147 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: had going on. But aside from the fact that from 148 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: that she was fighting for the same stuff that we 149 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: are still trying to get sorted out today, which is 150 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: awful and depressing, but also there's part of me that's like, well, 151 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: I guess everybody has always felt so we're not that unique, 152 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: even though we always feel like we're in the doomiest 153 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: doom zone. Yeah. I don't know if that helps anybody. 154 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: It's kind of a really a pessimist way to feel 155 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: a little better about it. It's a little, it's a little. 156 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: It's always sucked, and it always will suck. But I 157 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: it's always sucked. There's always been terrible wealth inequality and 158 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: people fighting to just get by and not not having 159 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: the means to recognize or get around the manipulative ways 160 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: that big business can hurt little guys without even caring. Right, 161 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: one of our episodes this week, and our accidental Mary Week, 162 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: everyone this week is named Mary, not on purpose, we 163 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: talked about Mary McLeod Bethune. Let's talk about whether she 164 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: was the first person in her family who was not 165 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: enslaved from birth. Yeah. You messaged me during your research 166 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: and you were like, this is a mess it. Well, 167 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,599 Speaker 1: so I started looking into this really early on, initially 168 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: because I had at that point read like three or 169 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: four really brief biographical sketches on places that should be 170 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: pretty accurate. One would expect, like I don't want to 171 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: name names. Actually, I just don't want to. I don't 172 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: want to embarrass people or whatever. But like I had read, 173 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, some brief biographical sketches about her, and they 174 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: all said this. They all said that she was either 175 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: the fifteenth of seventeen children or the last of seventeen children. 176 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: I think fifteen of seventeen is right. I think the 177 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: number seventeen is also right. She gave an interview later 178 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: on in her life in which she was asked to 179 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: name off all of her siblings, and she did only 180 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: name fifteen. But I do think she had some siblings 181 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: that died when they were baby, right, And you know, 182 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: birth records not always kept very well for enslaved people. 183 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: A lot of times there were references of like how 184 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: many people there were, but not necessarily their names and 185 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: stuff like that. So we're just going to work off 186 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: the assumption that she was the fifteenth of the seventeen 187 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: children as correct. Now. Immediately, I was curious about this 188 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: because seventeen is a lot of children. It is a 189 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: lot of children at the time. It's a lot of children. 190 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: For an enslaved mother who was enslaved for a chunk 191 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: of that time, it's a lot of children. There is 192 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: some physiology in involving how long it takes to carry 193 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: a child, right, and how long a person's fertility lasts. Yes, 194 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: And so the idea of somebody, even if she started 195 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: having babies at a pretty young age, and even if 196 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: she was having them very close together, the idea of 197 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: having fourteen children and then a decade long gap before 198 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: having it. I was like, it's not impossible, but it 199 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: just seemed not that likely. So I was like, I 200 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: should go check on this, and it was very easy 201 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: to find quickly that there was this eighteen seventy census 202 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: that listed a child who was one and one who 203 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: was three in eighteen seventy, and that would mean both 204 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: of them were born after the abolition of slavery. We're 205 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: not even going to get into emancipation proclamation and anybody 206 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: born between eight teen sixty three and eighteen sixty five. 207 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: There's a lot of just questions there. So I was like, wow, Okay, 208 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 1: this just seems to be a widely repeated bit of inaccuracy, 209 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: which happens. It has happened on our show. I'm sure 210 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: that we have, you know, repeated something that has been 211 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: repeated so much, Right, it's just ubiquitously everywhere. Where I 212 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: started to feel like I was losing it was brand 213 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: new academic work, and brand new, as in within the 214 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: last five years biographies written by people with terminal degrees 215 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: in their field. In at least one case, for an 216 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: academic press, like I would expect if you're writing a 217 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: brief biographical sketch of somebody for a website, there's one 218 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: level of research involved there. If you're writing a full 219 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: on bioography of somebody, I would expect this pretty to 220 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: me obvious gap to at least raise some questions, right, 221 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: And so when it apparently hadn't, I was like, am 222 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: I missing something here? Right? Did every copy editor not 223 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: do a little math in their head? Yeah? I just 224 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: there are a lot of eyeballs that are have looked 225 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: at some of those whose job it is to catch weirdness. Yeah. 226 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: I could see where it would make you feel like 227 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: you were losing your mind. I really yeah. I was 228 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: questioning my own ability to read and do math. And 229 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: I was like, am I confused about when the thirteenth 230 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: Amendment was ratified, and I think part of the reason 231 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: that I got so focused on it is that there 232 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: is a pattern that I have seen in working on 233 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: this show for a really long time, in adding elements 234 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: to the stories of black people, especially Black women, that 235 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: make them seem almost romanticized or superhuman. And I can 236 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: see aspects to this as positive, as like reclaiming a 237 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: story and making it a story that is about inspiration 238 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: and worth for black people who have not been covered 239 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: that way in a lot of historical writing. But I 240 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: also think it kind of adds into this idea that 241 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: the black people who throughout history have been the biggest 242 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: activists and the most effective at what they were doing, 243 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: were somehow exceptional as people. It wasn't just that they 244 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: have had access to education or that they can access 245 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: to resources, but that they were somehow different from all 246 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: of the other Black people. Yes, and it carries through 247 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: into things like this is not the case with Mary 248 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: McLoud Betune. There is a ton of academic work about 249 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: Mary McLeod Bethune, but there are a lot of figures 250 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: in black history, especially black women, where I can find 251 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: children's books about them, but no academic scholarship, and I 252 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: feel like all of this stuff is tied together, yes, interconnected. 253 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: So anyway, that was how I wound up spending an 254 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: inordinate amount of time on this one question and also 255 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: questioning my own like mental faculties. Yeah. I love that 256 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: she had faith in God and in Mary Bethune. That's 257 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: such a great quote. It is a great quote. She 258 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: definitely accomplished so much, and so much of it traced 259 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: back to being given the opportunity to go to school 260 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: and being able to get scholarships for a more formal education. 261 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: Sometimes she's described as the only, like the first person 262 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: in her family to go to school at all, and 263 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: that does not seem one hundred percent right to me. 264 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: It does seem like some of her older siblings who 265 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: were school age after the Civil War did have like 266 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: they were able to go to a little bit of school, right, 267 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: But it did have to be you know, very specific 268 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: in the windows of time when that could happen. She 269 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: was the first person who had higher educational opportunities. There 270 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: were not that many opportunities for black students to even 271 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: in a lot of cases get beyond like elementary school, 272 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: Like a lot of the first schools that were established 273 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: for black students were more like elementary school level of education, 274 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 1: so like getting to high school was a you know, 275 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: there were access issues there, and then like getting to 276 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: college a whole other thing. So anyway, yeah, I mean 277 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: I I you know, she is one of those cases 278 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: where she was clearly exceptional. Yeah, because which to me 279 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: is evidenced by the fact that it took a lot 280 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: of drive for her to continue to do all those 281 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: levels of education. Sure, obviously even if you have access, 282 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: like that's a lot of drive. But also like when 283 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: her education was done, it was like she never slowed down. 284 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: More on the plate, Please, more on the plate. I 285 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: could do more than this. I still have a little 286 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: bit of room. You could put one more responsibility. I 287 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: could take one more thing on. That's no problem, just 288 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: one sure, that's not a problem. Like throughout her life, 289 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: I get exhausted just reading her life story. I'm like, 290 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: did you ever just sit down quietly with a cup 291 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: of for an hour and chill out? Like what happened? 292 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: What happened there? She also did all of that, well 293 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: a lot of it, while essentially being a single parent, 294 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: And like I didn't find a lot written about her 295 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: son other than that he did feel like that he 296 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: did not get a lot of attention because of his 297 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: mother's work and her other you know, everything that she 298 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: had going on in her life. So like I didn't 299 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: find a ton about him either, but like she still 300 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: was like she was educating her son along with those 301 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: those first students that she had, and she was raising 302 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: him while also doing nine thousand things like let's start 303 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: a school and a hospital and a mission for turpentine workers. 304 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: Yeah at the same time. Yeah exhausting, Yeah, yeah, why down, Mary? 305 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: Like I just wonder. I also found myself thinking when 306 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: you were talking about the period later in her life 307 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: where she like retired and I'm air quoting that because 308 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: she unretired, like in those roles, what is the transition 309 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: for her going back into them, Like, yeah, did someone 310 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: do that job? And then go, no, I can't really 311 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: handle this the way you could anyway, So have at 312 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: it or like I mean, is it? I picture everything, 313 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: all of the plates kind of spinning and then maybe 314 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: hitting the ground when she's like, oh, I'm I'm unwell, 315 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: I can't work for a little while. Yeah. More likely, 316 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: I think she was so driven and organized that she 317 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: probably had failsafes in place for times when she couldn't 318 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: be there. But I just am like, I don't know 319 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: how the world kept going when she was like I 320 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: need downtime. Yeah, yeah, because that was a lot of stuff, right. 321 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I get fussy when we have to, like 322 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: in cases like this, hurry up and get everything done 323 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: before the holidays so we can like have a little 324 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: bird on the couch with a cup of coffee not 325 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: doing anything for a what So I can't even imagine. Yeah, Well, 326 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: and there were definitely times where how much she was 327 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: doing and how much effort she was putting in does 328 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: seem to have led to some like maybe not led to, 329 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: but at least contributed to some pretty serious illnesses. Yeah, 330 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: and uh so yeah, Yeah, I mean I see why 331 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: she believed in Mary m Hugh. Yeah, because I do. Yeah, 332 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: She's a very incredible person. I've had her on my 333 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: list for really so long, incredibly long time, and like 334 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that I have I had not 335 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: moved her up to the topic list sooner is that 336 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: there is just a ton out about her already, and 337 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: so sometimes I have focused on people doing similar work 338 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: that were maybe not as well known. But still she 339 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: does not I think that the men who were her contemporaries, 340 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: who were also working toward a lot of the same issues, 341 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: specifically for black Americans, for like the freed people after 342 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: the end of Civil War, have I think more name 343 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: recognition than she does in a lot of areas today. 344 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm glad we finally got to do this episode. 345 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: Me too. I have a question that you will be 346 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: answering now, because we're recording this before it comes out. 347 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: Oh sure, did pass you or future you? Time travel 348 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: is hard watch this the day had dropped on December twentieth, 349 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: Probably not on December twentieth, because I am making a 350 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: visit to see family, and when I go to see 351 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: my parents, I tend to spend all of my time 352 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: with them, doing stuff for them at their house, that 353 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And I don't know if there will 354 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: be like downtime on the twentieth to watch a whole 355 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: movie that is, I don't know. Maybe maybe my parents 356 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: would like to watch it too, maybe not. I pretty 357 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: much my mom has control of the remote and is 358 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: the decider and what we are going to watch. It's fair, 359 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: but I probably will watch it over the break after 360 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 1: I am back home again. The break meeting, meaning this 361 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: time where we recorded the episodes in advance so that 362 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 1: I can take it off. Yeah. Yeah, I'm working that day, 363 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: so maybe i'll watch it while I work. Yeah, that'd 364 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: be cool. Sit here and cry for a while. Yeah, 365 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: try to type about something else happen. Yeah, I don't. 366 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: I have no idea how how the you know what? 367 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: What the like? There are a lot of different ways 368 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: you can focus a movie like this, since it is 369 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: both about the Postal Directory Battalion and also about World 370 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: War Two, So it's like, how much war movie is 371 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: it and how much is it about these women? Don't 372 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: really know hasn't come out yet as a will find 373 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: out find out I as a person who has like 374 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: a lot of pacifist ideals, I yet still will find 375 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: sometimes war movies incredibly moving. So we'll see, we'll see. 376 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: Maybe I will report back afterward, although at that point 377 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: it's going to be, you know, weeks after the movie, right, right, great? 378 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, whatever is happening on your weekend, which is 379 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: like three full weeks after the day we're actually recording 380 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: this episode. Whatever's happening. I hope it's great. I hope 381 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: you're able to you know, if you are pushing really 382 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: hard on something that is important to you. I hope 383 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: you're able to take a minute to breathe, because that 384 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: minute to breathe can really help you get through all 385 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: the minutes after that. We'll be back with a Saturday 386 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: Classic tomorrow and something brand new on Monday. Stuff you 387 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 388 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 389 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.