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Speaker 1: Why did it take a documentary, a Hollywood documentary to

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Speaker 1: convince the world what so many of us knew at

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Speaker 1: the time, and we're berated. I recall I got to

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Speaker 1: hate mail, death threats, the works. First thing, Hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: a Jackson fan, but Jackson's a molester. BAM. Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Michael Jackson, there is no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: Was one of the most talented musicians in the world.

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Speaker 1: But he was a child molester. I mean, see Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Well. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: he was arrested. Take a listen to the District attorney

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Speaker 1: yesterday morning at around eight thirty am, investigators from the

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Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County Shrift's Department in Santa Barbara District Attorney's

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Speaker 1: Office serves as search warrant at Neverland Ranch and Los

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Speaker 1: of Levos. Simultaneous to the service of the warrant at

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Speaker 1: Neverland Ranch, two search warrants were also served in southern California.

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Speaker 1: Approximately seventy investigators from the Sheriff's Department and the District

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Speaker 1: Attorney's office were involved in the service of this warrant

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Speaker 1: at Neverland Ranch. The operation was concluded around eleven PM

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Speaker 1: last night. The service of the warrants was part of

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Speaker 1: an ongoing investigation alleging a criminal misconduct on the part

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Speaker 1: of Michael Jackson. The basis for this investigation regarding mister

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Speaker 1: Jackson involves allegations of child molestation to eighty eight A

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Speaker 1: of the California Petal Code. Additionally, arrest warrant for mister

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Speaker 1: Jackson has been issued on multiple accounts of child molestation.

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Speaker 1: The bail amount on the warrant has been set at

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Speaker 1: three million dollars. Take a listen to our friend Mark Garrigos.

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Speaker 1: This is abc ne's correspondent, Brian Uney. Michael Jackson got

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Speaker 1: out of a car behind the Santa Barbara County Jail

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Speaker 1: in handcuffs. His lawyer said, the singer is enraged. He

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Speaker 1: considers this to be a big lie. He understands the

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Speaker 1: people who are outraged because if these charges were true,

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Speaker 1: I assure you Michael would be the first to be outraged.

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Speaker 1: Jackson had arrived on a private jet from Las Vegas.

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Speaker 1: The plane rolled its nose into a hangar where Jackson

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Speaker 1: got into a waiting car out of view of television cameras.

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Speaker 1: He was taken into custody there at the airport. Jackson

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Speaker 1: had his mugshot taken and he was fingerprinted here at

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Speaker 1: the county jail before he posted a three million dollar bond.

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Speaker 1: You are hearing what happened when Jackson pulled in and

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Speaker 1: stepped out of a private hangar in a private jet.

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Speaker 1: Jackson was ultimately indicted on four counts of molesting a minor,

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Speaker 1: four counts of intoxicating a minor in order to molest him,

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Speaker 1: one count of attempted child molestation, one count of conspiring

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Speaker 1: to hold the boy and his family captive, and conspiring

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Speaker 1: to commit extortion and child abduction. Jackson found not guilty

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Speaker 1: on all of these what Joining me an all star

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Speaker 1: panel Stephen Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door, Host

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Speaker 1: of crime and forensics on casey aa LA Stephen Lampley

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Speaker 1: dot com. Jason Ocean's renowned defense attorney. Joining me from

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Speaker 1: New York psychoanalyst, Doctor Bethany Marshall, Doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 1: Francy Hikes, former Federal prosecutor, first ever National Coordinator for

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Speaker 1: Child Exploitation Prevention and Interdiction at Francy Hikes dot com.

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My

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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan. But right now to

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Speaker 1: Alexis Razchuk joining me from la investigative reporter Radar online

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Speaker 1: dot com. Who was the victim in the Ultimate Charges?

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Speaker 1: Victim was a boy named Gavin Arvizo. He and Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson had met. He had cancer. Michael Jackson found out

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Speaker 1: that this little boy had cancer, started sending his family

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Speaker 1: gifts and showering them with attention. Then brought them to Neverland.

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Speaker 1: They brought Gavin, his brother, and his mom and his dad.

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Speaker 1: They all testified during this trial. And though everybody is

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Speaker 1: saying is they don't understand jury nullification. What happened was

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Speaker 1: for some reason, this jury hated Gavin's mother. They said

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Speaker 1: that she was combative on the stand. They didn't like her,

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Speaker 1: and they believed that she had made her son lie

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Speaker 1: about this. This is what a juror from Santa Monco,

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Speaker 1: California said, I could never imagine being the kind of

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Speaker 1: mother who would have the more who would teach my

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Speaker 1: children such bad morals. They believe that this mom told

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Speaker 1: her son to lie about it, and they kept saying

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Speaker 1: it was for money. Gavin's family never asked Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: for any money. This was something that his lawyer said

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Speaker 1: on the stand. There was no evidence to this, and

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Speaker 1: this is what the jurors believed at the time. What

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Speaker 1: did they mean in the charges by conspiring to hold

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Speaker 1: the boy and his family captive and conspiring to commit

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Speaker 1: extortion and child abduction? So he was they were saying

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Speaker 1: that they brought them to Neverland and that they didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of money. Michael Jackson obviously had a

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Speaker 1: ton of money, and that he wouldn't let them leave,

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Speaker 1: and he kept saying, Oh, no, just stay here, just

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Speaker 1: stay here. It won't be anything. So the prosecutors had

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Speaker 1: said that he held them captive, and then he would say, oh,

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Speaker 1: don't tell anybody because the media will turn all this

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Speaker 1: into something bad, and that is the extortion. The police

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Speaker 1: will look at me and they all think this is

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Speaker 1: bad when this is just something so wonderful at innocent,

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Speaker 1: as Michael Jackson always says. Did visury dislike Gavin's mom

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Speaker 1: take a listen to ABCGMA. She would look at the

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Speaker 1: jury and snapper figures and say, you know, this is

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Speaker 1: the way it should be. Yes, that was very expimidating.

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Speaker 1: Because I was directly Mike and I were directly across

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Speaker 1: from the witnesses, and she would turn right to us

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Speaker 1: like she's just you know, but Melissa, what did that

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Speaker 1: say to you? I mean, apart from how it made

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Speaker 1: your fit, what did that say to you about? What? Who?

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Speaker 1: She wasn't the testimony she gave her testimony. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the parts of her testimony, I wanted to just

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Speaker 1: break out laughing, but I couldn't. You know, her m

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Speaker 1: she was up and down, up and down, and the

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Speaker 1: parts that I felt that she should have been more,

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Speaker 1: you know, more emotional about, she wasn't. So it's just

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Speaker 1: not incredible your thing. It's just so hard for me

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Speaker 1: to take in, you know, to Jason Ocean's veteran trial lawyer,

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Speaker 1: here's another example. If it doesn't fit, you must have quit.

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Speaker 1: Forget everything else that has happened in the trial and

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Speaker 1: look at this. And I fully blame the state in

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Speaker 1: that case for allowing the single person most likely to

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Speaker 1: screw up your demonstration in court, the defendant, of course,

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Speaker 1: to hand over your evidence to the defendant O J. Simpson.

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Speaker 1: Of course it didn't fit. Same thing. Here's and Johnny

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Speaker 1: Cochrane was a master at it. Look here, not there.

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Speaker 1: So Mezzero, who is a great of course he hates

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Speaker 1: my guts, that's obvious, but he's a great child lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and he got the jury to focus on the victim's

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Speaker 1: mother and what's wrong with her. And this whole thing

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Speaker 1: is a big fact inspiracy. Look at that, not at this.

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Speaker 1: Don't look at the fact he's sleeping with one boy

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Speaker 1: after the next. Don't look at the fact he gives

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Speaker 1: them wine and his staff has seen him do it.

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Speaker 1: Forget all that. But look at her. She's all welfare.

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Speaker 1: That's what happened. How does it work? It's like a magician, Jason.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly the word, Nancy. A little press to digitation,

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Speaker 1: a little bit of magic right there. And that as

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Speaker 1: as you said, you know, it was great, great defense

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Speaker 1: work in uh focusing on you know, the victim's mother.

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Speaker 1: But but really what it was in many ways is

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Speaker 1: that this jury wanted to be in the show. That's

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Speaker 1: why they were out for what thirteen days, and they

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Speaker 1: enjoyed that. I think they were fascinated the case. Who

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Speaker 1: was probably lost it at jury selection right there, the

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Speaker 1: analysis of who to pick and where within that pool

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Speaker 1: to you know, throw in the black ball and reject

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Speaker 1: those that might give you a hard time. But but

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Speaker 1: this was one right there, and they wanted in on this.

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Speaker 1: They were part of it. They believed the story from

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Speaker 1: the beginning, and they convinced themselves not to even think

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Speaker 1: about Michael Jackson and those horrible sexual acts that were committed.

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Speaker 1: But they convinced themselves to look elsewhere. And that was

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Speaker 1: the slight of hand. That was the magic. Don't look here,

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Speaker 1: here's all the evidence, look over there. It was. It

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Speaker 1: was bad theater for the state, uh and for justice,

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Speaker 1: but great theater for Michael Jackson. Well, Freshie Hayks, federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: He's right. But I've always said, you've won or lost

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Speaker 1: your case by the time you get twelve in the box.

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Speaker 1: It's all about jury selection. Of course, you can totally

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Speaker 1: screw it up, or you can do a Hell Mary

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Speaker 1: and win a case after jury selection. But I generally

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Speaker 1: believe it depends on who is on your jury, and

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Speaker 1: in this case, many of the jurars or star struck.

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Speaker 1: They had to choose to look at the mom and

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Speaker 1: not the victims. Well, you're right, Nancy, I mean one

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Speaker 1: of the dirty little secrets of trying cases as a

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Speaker 1: state prosecutor. I used to call jury selection weed the wackos,

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Speaker 1: because as a state prosecutor, all you have a chance

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Speaker 1: to do is get rid of the people you think

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Speaker 1: are going to be a disaster on your jury. It's

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Speaker 1: not really jury selection. You're not picking the jury. You're

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Speaker 1: picking the people you don't want on the jury, and

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Speaker 1: whomever is left are the people that you are stuck with.

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Speaker 1: And it is a classic defense tactic. In every single

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Speaker 1: child abuse case, I tried as a state prosecutor to

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Speaker 1: blame whichever non custodial, non non offending caregiver was supporting

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Speaker 1: the child, to blame them for the allegations. Was there

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Speaker 1: a divorce pending, was the mother crazy? Did she hate

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Speaker 1: the offender for some reason? This was a revenge play,

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Speaker 1: This was all about money. This was just writ large

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Speaker 1: because Michael Jackson was a celebrity. But Mezzo's tactics were

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Speaker 1: recognized by every state prosecutor in every jurisdiction in the

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Speaker 1: country because it was classic tactics to make the jury

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Speaker 1: look at the mother and ignore the actual allegations and

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Speaker 1: the evidence. Time stories with Nancy Grace in the beginning

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Speaker 1: pictures we saw of her when she was did the

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson rebuttaled thing. She had her hair done, she

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Speaker 1: had makeup on, and she was a most attractive woman.

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Speaker 1: When she came into court. She looked like mother Teresa

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Speaker 1: after a bad brain, bad meaning meaning she looked drained.

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Speaker 1: Her hair was straight, she didn't have any makeup, and

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Speaker 1: she was trying to play. She was trying to be

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Speaker 1: pitiful to us. I felt, but but what does this

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Speaker 1: have to do with her son's testimony? I mean, what

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Speaker 1: did you do you worry in any way? Do you

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Speaker 1: worry that how you felt about her in some way

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Speaker 1: influence how you felt about his testimony? Did you feel

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Speaker 1: he was lying? Did you feel the sun was lying? Um?

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Speaker 1: I thought he was gonna answer, go ahead and right? Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were there were times you could tell, but I

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Speaker 1: mean it all had to go back to the evidence. Wow. Wow,

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Speaker 1: So they never really addressed was the sunline? They just

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Speaker 1: beat up on the mom So mid stream Michael jack

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Speaker 1: and fires. Not only Mark Garrigos, celebrity lawyer that tried

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Speaker 1: when on a Rider she was convicted, that tried Scott Peterson,

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Speaker 1: he was convicted, but Ben Brofman now Ben Broffman. If

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Speaker 1: I were in criminal trouble and I had the money,

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Speaker 1: that's who I would fire Benjamin Brofman. But out of

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Speaker 1: the blue, Michael Jackson says, quote, it's imperative I have

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Speaker 1: the full attention of those who were representing me. So

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Speaker 1: he fires Gereghosen Brofman. That suggests to me he thought

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Speaker 1: he was not the center of Brothmann and Gerrighos's world.

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Speaker 1: And then he hires Thomas Mezzero. Before Jackson's statement, legal

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Speaker 1: experts speculated his decision was prompted because Garrigos had a

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Speaker 1: conflicting schedule and he was not used to a trial

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Speaker 1: lawyer that had other clients. Jackson wanted a full time lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and he thought Mazzero would be a full time lawyer. Now,

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Speaker 1: recall he's facing nine felony charges in the illegimalistation of

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Speaker 1: a boy who was then fourteen, and he had pled

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Speaker 1: not guilty. So to you, alexis terrescho waiter online dot com,

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Speaker 1: what does it mean he wanted a full time lawyer.

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Speaker 1: You cannot be a full time lawyer if you are covering,

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Speaker 1: if you are handling Scott Peterson's case which he lost.

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Speaker 1: And Michael Jackson's case, but which eventually was one. So

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about what else Garret Ghost was handling at

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Speaker 1: the time why he felt that one Scott Peterson's. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson who killed his wife Lacy. So Garrett, wait,

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Speaker 1: let me, let me get the timeframe. You're telling me

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Speaker 1: the Peterson case and the Jackson case were happening around

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Speaker 1: the same time. Correct, Oh my goodness, he was jealous.

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Speaker 1: He was jealous of his lawyer. To Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert, what do you make of any forensics in

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Speaker 1: the case, Uh, yeah, I think that a lot of

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Speaker 1: this goes back to identification. You know, they made a

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Speaker 1: lot about the vitteligo that he had allegedly been diagnosed with,

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Speaker 1: you know, identification of his body parts, this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: the color changes and all of this, and so can

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Speaker 1: you specifically identify this body part? And that's that's part

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Speaker 1: of what we do in forensics, you know, this tie

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Speaker 1: back that we have and that puts them in place.

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Speaker 1: Only these particular witnesses would have information relative to those

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Speaker 1: specific characteristics of that individual. Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalics joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Beverly Hills. We know that the boy

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Speaker 1: victims fingerprints as well as Michael Jackson's fingerprints were found

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Speaker 1: on porn poor magazines in Jackson's home. How do you

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Speaker 1: explain that? Okay, Nancy, to me, that was very compelling evidence.

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Speaker 1: And I was on your show on HL and the

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Speaker 1: night the verdict came in many years ago in New

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Speaker 1: York City and we actually discussed the jurors and the

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Speaker 1: issue of the magazine with the finger prints on it,

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Speaker 1: and what the jurors did not understand is when you molest.

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Speaker 1: When a pedophile molest a child, it's not just penetrating

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Speaker 1: the child, it's not just fondling the child, but it

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Speaker 1: is also stimulating the child to feel feelings that the

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Speaker 1: child cannot yet handle. So they often hand porn to

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Speaker 1: the child. And this was part of Michael Jackson's offending pattern.

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Speaker 1: He would give them the so called Jesus juice, which

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Speaker 1: was the wine, the alcohol, and then he would show

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Speaker 1: them pornography to excite them, and this was sort of

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Speaker 1: his foreplay before going on to a full on malization.

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Speaker 1: The name of the magazine we're referring to is titled

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Speaker 1: Hustler Barely legal hard core Jackson's prints and those of

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Speaker 1: his accuser, the Little Boy, were found on different pages

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Speaker 1: of the magazine, and all twelve prints from Jackson were

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Speaker 1: found on eight different magazines, five prints from the Little

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Speaker 1: Boy were found on three magazines, and two prints from

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Speaker 1: the little Boy's younger brother were found on a magazine.

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Speaker 1: And it is significant, is it not, Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: that the prints are found not just on the outside

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Speaker 1: of the magazine, but on the pages inside. Now prosecutors

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Speaker 1: are trying to use the fingerprint evidence to corroborate the

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Speaker 1: boy's testimony earlier in the trial that Jackson had shown

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Speaker 1: them porn while they were there overnight in Jackson's bedroom.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Joe Scott, the boys fingerprints were on inside

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Speaker 1: pages of porn hard core quote barely legal porn. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that is significant, Nancy, because you're tying back that child,

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Speaker 1: and let's use that word to describe this victim, this

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Speaker 1: child to this pointographic magazine and the fact that he

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Speaker 1: would have placed his hand. You know, when you place

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Speaker 1: your hand onto a surface like these pages here, it's

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Speaker 1: going to leave behind a print that's transferred through the

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Speaker 1: oil of our skin. So this is very significant. The

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Speaker 1: police did a very good job with this, because you know,

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Speaker 1: getting a print off of a piece of paper is

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Speaker 1: not very easy. They got it just externally and internally.

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Speaker 1: So that puts the two there because when you factor

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Speaker 1: that in with the child and as well as Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson touching the same magazine, and you mentioned this even

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Speaker 1: younger child that was there. So how is it possible

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Speaker 1: for the defense to explain away this connectivity within the

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Speaker 1: context of the scene. Take a listen to Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: reportedly owned a collection of child pornography and graphic images

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Speaker 1: of animal sacrifices. This according to a new report. The

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Speaker 1: report comes from Radar Online, which obtained documents from the

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Speaker 1: Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department, the authorities who rated Jackson's

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Speaker 1: the Neverland Ranch after multiple child sex abuse claims. One

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Speaker 1: unnamed and told the documents exposed Jackson as a manipulative

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Speaker 1: drug and sex craze predator who used blood, gore, sexually

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Speaker 1: explicit images of animal sacrifice, and perverse adult sex acts

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Speaker 1: to bend children to his will. Jackson, who was under

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Speaker 1: constant scrutiny from local authorities after multiple child molestation accusations,

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Speaker 1: then that they found photographs, books of young boys who

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Speaker 1: were undressed. Not didn't happen, No, not that I know of,

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Speaker 1: unless people sent me things that I haven't opened. People.

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Speaker 1: People know my love for children, so they seen new

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Speaker 1: books from all over the world. The information published in

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Speaker 1: the Radar Online report was supposedly uncovered when investigators rated

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Speaker 1: Jackson's house in two thousand and three following a child

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Speaker 1: molestation accusation. He was not found guilty on all fourteen charges.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace then that they found photographs

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Speaker 1: and books of young boys who were undressed. Not didn't happen, No,

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Speaker 1: not that I know of, unless people sent me things

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Speaker 1: that I haven't opened. People sent. People know my love

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Speaker 1: for children, so they sent new books from all over

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Speaker 1: the world. The information published in the Radar Online report

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Speaker 1: was supposedly uncovered when investigators rated Jackson's house in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three following a child molestation accusation. He was

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Speaker 1: felt guilty on all fourteen charges. Two ilex the terrestcha

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Speaker 1: joining us from Radar online dot com. What about it?

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Speaker 1: So yep, we obtained videos of the Santa Barbara Sheriff's

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Speaker 1: Department going into Michael Jackson's home. His Neverland Ranch. And

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Speaker 1: this is the raw bodycam footage like this is the

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Speaker 1: investigation where they first went into Michael Jackson's house. They

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Speaker 1: go into his house, looked like a hoarder's house. He

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Speaker 1: just stacked high. Like his bedroom. You think of a

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Speaker 1: celebrity bedroom which we see in pictures all the time,

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Speaker 1: you know, this beautiful place. No, this was like stacked

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Speaker 1: with magazines, you know, twenty five high all over the room.

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Speaker 1: There were videotapes. There was like a secret closet that

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Speaker 1: had little creepy little dolls in it, and all these

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Speaker 1: things that you would think of would be in like

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Speaker 1: a child's room, baby dolls and things like that, but

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Speaker 1: instead they were in a grown man's room. There was pornography.

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Speaker 1: There were videos and pictures and magazines as we said,

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Speaker 1: you know, of animal sacrifice. And the police found all

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Speaker 1: of this. This is everything the Sheriff's department took in

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Speaker 1: the raid leading up to the trial. This is from

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three when they raided Neverland Ranch, and

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Speaker 1: it was horrifying. They were stunned to find all of

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Speaker 1: these things in his bedroom and in little closets off

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Speaker 1: his bedroom, little secret rooms off of his bedroom and

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Speaker 1: It didn't look like a grown ups bedroom. It looked

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Speaker 1: like a creepy horder's den, sex den tortured in. We

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Speaker 1: also know that the hallway leading to Jackson's bedroom was

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Speaker 1: a serious security zone. It had was wired for video

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Speaker 1: and sound so that Jackson would know if anyone approached

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Speaker 1: his bedroom door. There would be ding dong sounds that

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Speaker 1: would erupt in his room if anyone came near his door.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you how this little boy r Viso

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Speaker 1: met Gavin Arvizo meets Jackson and what role does another witness,

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Speaker 1: Martin Basher play in this. So Gavin had cancer and

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson actually found him. He had found that this

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Speaker 1: family had was a little boy who was suffer him

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Speaker 1: from cancer and had no money at all. So he

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Speaker 1: started reaching out to him and he started giving him

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Speaker 1: gifts and sending the money and then he eventually flew

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Speaker 1: them out to California brought him to Neverland Ranch. The

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Speaker 1: thing is Martin Basher is a very famous British documentary

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Speaker 1: and he does lots of videos over the years exposs

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Speaker 1: about celebrities, and they got in contact and he did

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Speaker 1: the interview with Gavin's family and Gavin's mom and how,

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Speaker 1: and they spoke for the first time about Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulting Gavin. So this child cancer victim is the

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Speaker 1: one that testifies at trial, and it is his mother

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Speaker 1: that the jury seemingly focuses on and hates. Now, the

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Speaker 1: documentary Living with Michael Jackson, and that was by Martin

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Speaker 1: Basher catches Jackson inviting Our Viso to be part of

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Speaker 1: his documentary. Jackson and Our Viso were saying holding hands

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Speaker 1: and Basher asked Jackson in the documentary about the approacheness

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Speaker 1: of a grown man having sleepovers and sleeping with a

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Speaker 1: little boy, and he insisted that it was not sexual.

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Speaker 1: So what was different? Years later, in Leaving Neverland, Alexis Rzchuck,

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Speaker 1: So these were different people. Gavin has never again spoken

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Speaker 1: after the trial. Despite repeated attempts, no one has been

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Speaker 1: able to get him to speak. However, twenty years later,

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Speaker 1: Wade Robinson and James Safecheck both spoke out about Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson for leaving Neverland and they detailed the abuse that

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Speaker 1: they had And the thing was, Wade said, I testified

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Speaker 1: against Gavin and for Michael Jackson in two thousand and five.

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Speaker 1: I stood on the stand. I was so confident. I

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Speaker 1: looked right at Michael Jackson and I said that he

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Speaker 1: never molested me, that I never saw him do anything.

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Speaker 1: And he says, I lied. I lied for Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: for all of these years. I felt like I had to,

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Speaker 1: and I am now telling the truth. And James said

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Speaker 1: the same thing, that he had lied for decades about

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Speaker 1: the abuse. But that they finally realize, you know, they've

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Speaker 1: grown up, They've got you know, when James has children.

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Speaker 1: They Wade says, I just couldn't keep up the lie

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Speaker 1: any longer. Take a listen to our friends at PBS,

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Speaker 1: John Yang. Because Wade was an adult when he testified

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Speaker 1: in Jackson's favor in two thousand Because Wade was an

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Speaker 1: adult when he testified in Jackson's favor in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and five too in the criminal trial. The reason why

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Speaker 1: Wade changed his story, and that's what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: And I can understand why people query that that story

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Speaker 1: of Wade's awakening is the story of the film. That's

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Speaker 1: you know, it takes four hours to unpack that, and

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Speaker 1: when you reduce it to its simplest, you know, Wade

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Speaker 1: as a child and as a victim of Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: formed a deeper chat attachment to his abuser. He fell

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Speaker 1: in love with Michael, and that relationship shaped his teenage years,

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Speaker 1: in his adult life up to, you know, until he's

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Speaker 1: mid twenties. So he's twenty two. He stands up in

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Speaker 1: court and he knocks it out the park in defense

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Speaker 1: of Michael, and you know, his defense witness number one

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Speaker 1: and probably one of the important reasons why Michael was

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Speaker 1: acquitted of the child sexual abuse charges against a thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old Gavin Arvizo. Why did he change his mind

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Speaker 1: while he didn't want his mentor the man that he'd

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Speaker 1: been in a sexual relationship with, his idol, you know,

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Speaker 1: man he really admired, He didn't want him go to jail,

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Speaker 1: and so he lied. And then it wasn't under a

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Speaker 1: few sort of a few years later that he had

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Speaker 1: a child in his own, He had a young son,

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Speaker 1: and he describes the moment when he looks at his

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Speaker 1: son and he imagines Michael doing to his son the

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Speaker 1: things that Michael did to him to Wade as a

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Speaker 1: seven year old, and becomes enraged and you know, can't

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Speaker 1: stand the thought. And then that that prompts him to

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Speaker 1: look deeper into the way he thought about his own

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Speaker 1: relationship with Michael, and that's when he started beginning to

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Speaker 1: consider it as abuse, because up to that point it

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Speaker 1: was just like a special relationship with Michael that that

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Speaker 1: has had a sexual component, but was also about a

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Speaker 1: bunch of other things and was deep emotional attachment and

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Speaker 1: of course way Robinson testified at Jackson's trial as the

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Speaker 1: first defense witness that he had stayed over in Jackson's

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Speaker 1: bedroom many times but had never been molested. Okay, he

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Speaker 1: says he slept in Jackson's bedroom on all but three

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Speaker 1: or four of twenty visits. They played video games, watched movies,

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Speaker 1: and had pillow sights. Well, that's not what he said

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Speaker 1: in the documentary. We even hear at trial from child's

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Speaker 1: starr of Home Alone Mcaulay Culkin to Alexa Terrestio. What

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Speaker 1: did Colkin say at trial? The same thing. Michael was

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Speaker 1: his friend, they hung out, Michael didn't do anything to him.

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Speaker 1: That he was just a mentor, an older person who

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Speaker 1: had a childlike appreciation for him. Take a listen to

427
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: this rebuttal video from the r VS Family. My children

428
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: and me know what rejection is to be neglected to

429
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: be spit on, to be talked about, to be made

430
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: an outsider only because of our status in life or

431
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: what we were going through. And Michael did not have that.

432
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: He said, come to him, not just Gavin, but starring

433
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: Davlin and me and called us his family. And Gavin

434
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: was the one that asked him, could I call you daddy?

435
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm seven years old, Michael asked,

436
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: do you and the family want to come to Neverland?

437
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: We'd drive in and forget about all your problems. You

438
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: were in Neverland. It was a fantasy, a storybook, right,

439
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: I'm a fairy tale. Hello, Wade, today is your birthday,

440
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 1: so congratulations. I love you. Go by. There's no thoughts

441
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 1: of this is wrong or anything like that. He told me.

442
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: If they ever found out what we were doing, he

443
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: and I would go to jail for the rest of

444
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: our lives. Secrets will eat you up. You feel so alone.

445
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: I want to be able to speak the truth as

446
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: loud as I had to speak the lie for so long.

447
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: You are hearing Leaving Neverland the documentary to Phrasie Heiggs,

448
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: why do children lie for their molesters? Well, Nancy, and

449
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: is a really complicated issue. I mean, it's all tied

450
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: up in the feelings that the children describe of love.

451
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: They believe at the time that they love their offender,

452
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: and so they are willing to support whatever the offender

453
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: asked them to do. And can I also say, Nancy,

454
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: I have always been very, very angry as a prosecutor

455
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: over this evidence of Macaulay Culkin and Wade Robson testifying

456
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: at the Arvizu Jackson trial that Michael Jackson did not

457
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: molest them. I have to say, in our own home

458
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: state of Georgia, that evidence would have never been allowed because, Nancy,

459
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: it is wholly irrelevant. Let's take it as example in

460
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: a bank robbery case. In what bank robbery case have

461
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: you ever heard of a bank robbers defense being oh,

462
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: I didn't rob that bank because I didn't rob the

463
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: other one on the corner the day before. It's never admissible.

464
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: It is not relevant whether or not the defendant molested X,

465
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: Y and Z. It's only relevant whether he molested the

466
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: child in the indictment. And so it's one more example

467
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: where California being crazy pro defendant and being allowed to

468
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: tell a jury evidence that is wholly irrelevant just because

469
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: someone didn't left every child he ever came in contact

470
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: with doesn't mean he didn't molest the child at issue.

471
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: And I think that was one of the most powerful

472
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: pieces of evidence the jury heard, was this, the fact

473
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: that he didn't molest these other two and therefore they

474
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: were willing to believe that that meant he couldn't be

475
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: a child molester. And that is just dead raw. So

476
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: at this point, that license to Reschuck, why do you

477
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: believe that it took a documentary out of Hollywood to

478
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: convince the world that Jackson was in fact a molester.

479
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: I think times have changed, I really do. And I

480
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: think that people now that Michael Jackson has been dead

481
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: for ten years. It was ten years when the movie

482
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: came out, that they finally realized that the made this star,

483
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 1: the shine has worn off, and that they believe these

484
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: people because these two men were so credible, they were

485
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: so honest, They really were so raw in telling this.

486
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: And I think that when people appreciate when someone tells

487
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: the truth with you know what, I lied, and I

488
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: think so many people can recognize that why they lied

489
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: and that they were snowed by him. Because Michael Jackson's

490
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: star has faded. And yes, his music has sold, you know,

491
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: four hundred million dollars since he died, But there have

492
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: been no other positive stories that have come out about

493
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: him in those ten years. Nobody's come forward and said,

494
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: here's all these great things that he did for me

495
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: when I was young. No, everything that has come out

496
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: since then has been bad. And I think that people

497
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: were finally ready to see the truth and it's terrible,

498
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: and I think that unfortunately sometimes it does take the

499
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: power of Hollywood because you have to see it. The

500
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: trial is different. Not everybody, you know, people didn't watch

501
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: it every day, and it's been so long, But to

502
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: see it in a movie for him and where you

503
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: can watch it, you know, in your own home and

504
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: you can be able to be vulnerable and to see

505
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: this it makes a very powerful impact on you. And

506
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: that's the power of Hollywood. And it protected Michael Jackson

507
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: for so long, and now it's finally revealing what really

508
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: did happen. People were ready to daughter, Bethany Marshall, do

509
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: you remember all the hate mail, the emails, the threats

510
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: I and maybe you would get during the Michael Jackson

511
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: coverage when I would suggest, when I would say he's guilty.

512
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: He did it. Nancy, I remember that clearly, and I

513
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: think Alexis tres Chuck is so correct when she says, basically,

514
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: it was a different era back then, everybody rallied around

515
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson. They've vilified these boys, they've vilified the families,

516
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: and what they didn't realize is that the reason victims

517
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: lie for the perpetrator, and there are two basic reasons.

518
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: One is, remember Michael Jackson showed the pornography to the children.

519
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: He aroused these boys sexually. That was a part of

520
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: the offending pattern because because they were aroused, they felt

521
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: that it was their fault. Because they felt it was

522
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: their fault, they felt guilty and ashamed, and then they lied.

523
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: The other thing is that Michael Jackson is also what

524
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: we call an interpersonal offender. Not only did he offend sexually,

525
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: but he offended psychologically by brainwashing these boys and developing

526
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: very powerful bonds with them, much like priests did with

527
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: boys in the Catholic Church. I have treated adults who

528
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: were sexually molested by priests, who felt guilty and protected

529
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: the priests for years and years and years, well into

530
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: their fifties and sixties because they felt guilty about coming out.

531
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 1: So yes, this was a whole ethos back then that

532
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: Michael Jackson was great, he could never do anything bad.

533
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: The boys were terrible, the mother was terrible. And you know,

534
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: the times have changed, Nancy, you would not get the

535
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: hate mail now that you got back then. I don't

536
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: know about that. My question now is Jason Ohans has

537
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: so much time having passed, is there anything that then

538
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: child victims can do now? In terms of obviously, once

539
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: the defendant is dead, that ends all criminal aspects, much

540
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: like an epstein. But the estate has a lot of money,

541
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: I mean to the extent that they could be held

542
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: liable now in some way, California's statutory laws sometimes can

543
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 1: be affording the opportunity to go after any royalties or

544
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: when they became known or uh, you know, to the estate.

545
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: That might be the place, since it is quite wealthy

546
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: and it's done exceedingly well since his death. But as

547
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: far as any other criminal acts, if there were any

548
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: people that were complicit, I do believe statute of limitations

549
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: has passed on that. What about it, Francy? I agree

550
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: with that, Nancy. I think civil remedies are the only

551
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 1: option open to victims now, Alexis is there any way

552
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: that they can sue now? As a statute passed civilly

553
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: as well? I mean it's not indefinite on a civil lawsuit.

554
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: I mean you have to bring it with in a

555
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: certain period of time. We just changed the law in California.

556
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: Oh good will that be retroactive? I believe it can be.

557
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: Corey Feldman actually has been very active in this and

558
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: he was very prominent in getting a law path that

559
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 1: will help victims well. Alexis Terres Chuck is right. Michael

560
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: Jackson's sex abuse accusers can now sue his companies. Following

561
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: a court appeal, two guys who accused Jackson of sex

562
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: assaulting them as children in the documentary Leaving Neverland can

563
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: now sue. This is after a ruling made in California

564
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 1: Justice past Friday. It's Wade Robson and James's Safe Chuck

565
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 1: tried to file a lawsuit in twenty fourteen. The case

566
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: thrown out because the statute of limitations that Jason Oceans

567
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: had described barring child sex assault accusers for filling claims

568
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: after their twenty sixth birthday. But now the age limit

569
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: has been raised to forty and a Court of Appeals

570
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: has granted Robson and safe Check permission to go ahead

571
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: and sue. Changes in California law mean both of these

572
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 1: men can now sue the Jackson estate. We wait as

573
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,