Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, it's me Maya. Today we're bringing you an
Speaker 2: episode from Proxy, hosted by Joe Shah, who you might
Speaker 2: already know from NPRS in Visibilia. Proxy is built around
Speaker 2: a simple idea. Whatever you might be going through, no
Speaker 2: matter how specific or hard to explain, you're not alone.
Speaker 2: There is someone else out there somewhere who truly gets it.
Speaker 2: In each episode, Yoe connects her guests with someone they
Speaker 2: may have never met otherwise, but who understands something essential
Speaker 2: about their experience. The intimate, searching conversations that follow feel
Speaker 2: right at home here. On a slight change of plans,
Speaker 2: the episode you're about to hear Katelyn Lost the Voice
Speaker 2: in her Head is about something I know all too well,
Speaker 2: what happens when you can't do the thing you love
Speaker 2: the most anymore, the thing you've built your whole life
Speaker 2: and identity around. I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3: If you had to vocalize the sound of this conundrum,
Speaker 3: woa would it sound like?
Speaker 4: It's that wind?
Speaker 3: Hmmm? The wind outside your window?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Why wind?
Speaker 4: It's not silence, but it's it's not saying anything.
Speaker 3: Hello, prexy listeners, we are back. I'm the aishaw on proxy.
Speaker 3: We believe no one is ever alone with their problem,
Speaker 3: no matter how niche, no matter how weird, because statistically,
Speaker 3: somewhere out there is someone who gets it, and through
Speaker 3: the powers of reporting, we find them. In case you
Speaker 3: haven't heard the show, what we do is put these
Speaker 3: two people in conversation to see what they can learn
Speaker 3: from each other, and hopefully so we can have a
Speaker 3: good but also awkward, but also beautiful time together. Today's
Speaker 3: case the writer who woke up one day with no
Speaker 3: words in our head. What do you do when the
Speaker 3: thing that gives your life meaning this appears. That's after
Speaker 3: the break. Last year, I got an email with a
Speaker 3: subject line that got my attention. It was just three words,
Speaker 3: inner Narrator died. The email was from a woman named
Speaker 3: Kaitlyn Meyer, a poet, memorist, an essayist who had lived
Speaker 3: with the company of her inner narrator all her life
Speaker 3: until one day it disappeared, along with her ability to write.
Speaker 3: I imagine for a long time, when people ask you
Speaker 3: to introduce yourself in these kinds of interviews, would you say.
Speaker 4: I'm a writer? But yeah, Over the last few years,
Speaker 4: I do feel this drop into the pit of my
Speaker 4: stomach when I say it, because it doesn't feel completely true.
Speaker 3: Caitlyn is fifty seven with a septum piercing and boyish
Speaker 3: white hair. She looks cool. If I saw her in
Speaker 3: a line up, I'd be like, she's an artist. Caitlin
Speaker 3: told me she spent decades teaching herself how to write,
Speaker 3: learning to listen to the voice in her head, and
Speaker 3: then in her forties, she reorganized her entire life around
Speaker 3: that voice. She left her husband, she got rid of
Speaker 3: her apartment, went part time at her translation job, just
Speaker 3: enough for food, rent plane tickets, and she started wandering.
Speaker 3: The intention was to go places she didn't know anyone,
Speaker 3: where she didn't speak the language, so she'd be forced
Speaker 3: to be alone and focus on her writing.
Speaker 4: I'd stay for the length of a tourist visa wherever
Speaker 4: I went, and that was about the right amount of time,
Speaker 4: because I'd start to get sucked into a social scene
Speaker 4: and then it was time to go. Wow.
Speaker 3: That is committing to the bit, structurally forcing herself into loneliness.
Speaker 4: And it was wonderful because when I was partnered. Every
Speaker 4: time I was partnered with a man, they were jealous
Speaker 4: of the time that I spent writing. I had to
Speaker 4: steal time to write. I had to fit it in
Speaker 4: the corners of the day. I had to fight for
Speaker 4: the television to be off.
Speaker 3: I started reading Caitlin's writing for the story, and it
Speaker 3: is really fucking good. She writes about escaping traditional womanhood
Speaker 3: in ways that don't feel preachy but make me feel
Speaker 3: like another way is possible, and she has a real
Speaker 3: gift with words that cut with such precision they hurt.
Speaker 3: There were moments reading I'd inhale sharply like I was
Speaker 3: eating something spicy. And there was this one nonfiction essay
Speaker 3: she wrote about a former lover that felt like the
Speaker 3: wildest foreshadowing of what would one day happen to Caitlin.
Speaker 3: In the essay, her lover all so a writer and memorist,
Speaker 3: he suddenly loses his memory and forgets their entire relationship,
Speaker 3: and he asks Caitlin to write about what's happening to
Speaker 3: him because, as he says, I don't know if I'll
Speaker 3: get my brain back. And then just five years later,
Speaker 3: Caitlin is settled in Portugal. She's coming out with her
Speaker 3: first traditionally published book, with her first book launch, her
Speaker 3: first big book review in the San Francisco Chronicle with
Speaker 3: a big photo.
Speaker 4: But of course I was already working on the next book.
Speaker 4: It was already going to be better.
Speaker 3: And one day Caitlin is walking up the hill to
Speaker 3: the place she likes to write, and her footland's funny
Speaker 3: on the path and she stumbles.
Speaker 4: I wasn't even aware of having hit my head. What
Speaker 4: I do know is that I was like, oh, I
Speaker 4: just took a little tumble. I'm going to get up,
Speaker 4: and I couldn't get up because I was so dizzy.
Speaker 3: It didn't seem like a big hit, but ended up
Speaker 3: with a concussion. Caitlin had had concussions before, so she
Speaker 3: knew the drill. She took it easy, avoided screens. But
Speaker 3: over the next few months the symptoms got worse. She
Speaker 3: kept getting tired and seasick. She couldn't balance very well,
Speaker 3: She had trouble finding words in conversation. She couldn't read,
Speaker 3: she couldn't write. She felt like an old lady all
Speaker 3: of a sudden.
Speaker 4: But I didn't really realize that the inner narrator was
Speaker 4: gone for a while. I think I recall walking in
Speaker 4: the park and realizing that there were no words in
Speaker 4: my head, like none and I saw a goat and
Speaker 4: I had to like really crank to find the word
Speaker 4: for goat. I thought in images and feelings, but I
Speaker 4: didn't think in words anymore.
Speaker 3: Caitlin eventually got a diagnosis for post concussion syndrome. She
Speaker 3: couldn't work, so her friends took her in and for
Speaker 3: the next three years, Caitlin went to doctor visit after
Speaker 3: doctor visit. She took long walks and did lots of
Speaker 3: rehab what her friends called visual torture, doing things like
Speaker 3: bouncing and catching balls, all while the voice in her
Speaker 3: head was silent.
Speaker 4: In one sense, it was a real Buddhist being in
Speaker 4: the moment kind of experience, which in some ways was nice.
Speaker 3: Why was it nice because I.
Speaker 4: Also didn't have the voice telling me what I had
Speaker 4: to do. I didn't have the voice telling me that
Speaker 4: I was an impostor. It was nice to have that
Speaker 4: voice shut up.
Speaker 3: Today, Caitlin's back to working part time at her translation job.
Speaker 3: She can talk, walk, read, and she can technically write again.
Speaker 3: She boasts short essays with lots of photos on Patreon,
Speaker 3: and she did write a poem the other week, but
Speaker 3: it didn't feel the same. After years of trying different techniques,
Speaker 3: typing without looking at the screen, voice dictation, writing by hand.
Speaker 3: She just misses her inner voice, her narrator.
Speaker 4: My narrator before was they were non binary, by the way,
Speaker 4: and they would It was almost like a song. It
Speaker 4: was all about this sort of resonance inside my head.
Speaker 4: I could tell myself stories to fall asleep. I would
Speaker 4: just live in whatever I was writing at the time.
Speaker 4: And now I do think in words. But that writing voice,
Speaker 4: the storytelling voice, the poetic voice, the way that I
Speaker 4: always heard what I wrote, is still gone, and I
Speaker 4: don't really know how to write without it.
Speaker 3: And this is why Caitlin came to us.
Speaker 4: I would get up every morning and I would know
Speaker 4: what I was doing that day, and it was the
Speaker 4: thing I most wanted to do, and I was good
Speaker 4: at it and people wanted it. Now I really have
Speaker 4: to stretch to find a point. How do I move forward?
Speaker 4: How do I find the plot?
Speaker 3: After the break? I find Caitlin a proxy, someone who
Speaker 3: also lost their voice. Kaitlyn, Hie, how are you doing?
Speaker 4: I'm okay, I'm nervous, I'm excited.
Speaker 3: Are there any updates that I should know about?
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm just keeping on. I've painted a couple
Speaker 4: of things that I like.
Speaker 3: So yeah, after the concussion, Caitlyn started painting. It's not
Speaker 3: our calling, per se, but she's really into it. Recently,
Speaker 3: she painted a dead goal that washed up on the
Speaker 3: beach near her house. I don't think I've ever seen
Speaker 3: a painting of a dead goal.
Speaker 4: Well, I can send it to you.
Speaker 3: Uh, okay, so the proxy is here, Okay, all right?
Speaker 3: Should I let them in? You ready?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 4: So the proxy I knew.
Speaker 3: I wanted to find an artist, someone who'd spent years
Speaker 3: mastering their craft, devoted their life to it, and then
Speaker 3: lost their ability to do the thing they loved, the
Speaker 3: thing that.
Speaker 4: Gave them purpose.
Speaker 3: And surprisingly I found options. There are unfortunately, way too
Speaker 3: many artists who've lost their ability to make their art.
Speaker 3: I found a painter, a few musicians, some dancers. I
Speaker 3: even found a writer who'd lost her ability to write
Speaker 3: in a freak health incident, but through years of hard work,
Speaker 3: got it back. But I thought, would it be painful
Speaker 3: for Caitlin to talk to our writer who could write again,
Speaker 3: because she doesn't know if she ever will. And then
Speaker 3: I found someone who felt closer to the place Caitlin occupies,
Speaker 3: someone who also lost the thing that defined them, who
Speaker 3: built their her entire life around a voice and then
Speaker 3: lost it. Meet Greta Morgan. Hi, so nice to meet you, Caitlin.
Speaker 3: It's really good to meet you. Greta Greta Morgan is
Speaker 3: a songwriter, musician, and singer who wrote a memoir called
Speaker 3: The Lost Voice. She says before losing it, she worked
Speaker 3: her ass off to get her singing voice.
Speaker 1: I was not a natural singer, so I didn't have
Speaker 1: a good pitch and I didn't have a lot of range,
Speaker 1: and I trained my voice really from nothing, because I
Speaker 1: just wanted so badly to share my songs with the world.
Speaker 3: She's had quite the career. She's thirty eight now, but
Speaker 3: her first band got signed at seventeen. She skipped six
Speaker 3: weeks of senior year to go on an arena tour
Speaker 3: with Fallout Boy. Music was her livelihood, her social circle,
Speaker 3: her expression, her entire life.
Speaker 1: And then when I was thirty, I joined the band
Speaker 1: Vam Pier Weekend, who was already hugely famous, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was like at the peak of
Speaker 1: my musical career, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden, playing
Speaker 1: right before the Cure, playing before Bob Dylan, like having
Speaker 1: all my musical bucket list dreams come true and working
Speaker 1: on a solo record that I hoped would be like
Speaker 1: the biggest swing I had ever taken creatively.
Speaker 3: I listened to Greta's musical project Springtime Carnivore, and it
Speaker 3: became the soundtrack to writing this story. It racks Here's
Speaker 3: Face in the Moon from a record Midnight Room. And
Speaker 3: then in March of twenty twenty, Greta got COVID playing
Speaker 3: a festival in Florida at the covering from a terrible fever.
Speaker 3: She was then a vocal lesson when she discovered she
Speaker 3: couldn't access the top half of her singing voice. Here's
Speaker 3: a clip of her trying to sing that same song
Speaker 3: I just played you.
Speaker 1: Co co to the dug Is anybody else? It just
Speaker 1: does not work if I'm trying about.
Speaker 3: It. Took months to figure out what was happening, but
Speaker 3: eventually Greta got diagnosed with spasmodic dysphonia, a neurological disorder
Speaker 3: that involves involuntary spasms of the vocal chords.
Speaker 1: So my singing voices, I knew it just was completely decimated.
Speaker 1: So not only could I not perform and have a livelihood.
Speaker 1: But I also couldn't realize express myself the way I'd
Speaker 1: always known for years, just my kind of emotional expression
Speaker 1: and my love of writing and playing. And now I'm
Speaker 1: six years into this journey, you know, hundreds of speech
Speaker 1: therapy sessions, vocal injections, holistic therapies, and at this point,
Speaker 1: I've recovered maybe about forty percent of my voice. So
Speaker 1: when I heard your story, I was immediately like, I
Speaker 1: need to talk to her.
Speaker 4: I'm having all the feelings like this happened to you
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, this happened to me in twenty twenty.
Speaker 4: I'm like very emotional at this moment looking at your
Speaker 4: story from outside. It's like I can feel grief for
Speaker 4: what you went through in a way that I can't
Speaker 4: feel it for what I went through.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting.
Speaker 3: Greta tells Caitlin that this is also her first time
Speaker 3: talking to someone who's been through the same thing, and
Speaker 3: Caylen tells Greta.
Speaker 4: Her situation getting to the point where I could call
Speaker 4: myself a writer was a big deal. How she also
Speaker 4: felt like she was summoning a peak with her writing,
Speaker 4: so it was really feeling like I was arriving into
Speaker 4: my authorial self.
Speaker 3: How she also lost her ability to do the thing
Speaker 3: she loved.
Speaker 4: A friend of mine who's a brain scientist, said that
Speaker 4: it was similar to a.
Speaker 3: Stroke and how eventually, after years of rehab, she regained
Speaker 3: all her abilities, except her internal narrator never came back.
Speaker 4: It was almost like singing or almost like music, and
Speaker 4: it was just gone.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 4: And writing really felt like that was my purpose in life.
Speaker 4: And without the voice, I feel like I lost my purpose.
Speaker 4: I feel like I don't know why I'm I don't
Speaker 4: know why I'm alive sometimes, or that's at its worst.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I just feel that heartbreaks so viscerally.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that really caught me was when
Speaker 1: you were saying, not only were you having difficulty reading
Speaker 1: and writing, but you were having trouble walking. It feels
Speaker 1: like a huge, massive challenge and setback that happened in
Speaker 1: your life. I've had separate but alongside some of my
Speaker 1: vocal issues. Also, I was disabled for two years by
Speaker 1: long COVID, to the point where I had to move
Speaker 1: home with my parents. But I just so relate to
Speaker 1: the immediate loss of ability and how shocking it is,
Speaker 1: and just how kind of scary it is.
Speaker 3: After Caitlin realized she couldn't write, she threw herself, finding
Speaker 3: a new calling, a new artistic medium to be obsessed with,
Speaker 3: to be her thing.
Speaker 4: When I was first going through this, I got really
Speaker 4: invested in the inspiration porn story. The Okay, I can't read,
Speaker 4: I can't write, so I'm gonna make a podcast. I'm
Speaker 4: going to teach myself how to make a podcast, and
Speaker 4: I'm going to do that. I thought that I could
Speaker 4: just quickly pivot and be amazing through just sheer force
Speaker 4: of will, and that's not how it works. I did.
Speaker 4: I did learn to paint. One weird benefit of whatever
Speaker 4: brain shit was going on was my experience of color
Speaker 4: got heightened. So I have been learning to paint. And
Speaker 4: again with that idea that I was gonna pivot and
Speaker 4: change my story and woohoo, look how amazing. I was
Speaker 4: going to become a painter now and that was going
Speaker 4: to be my thing. But I don't feel that sense
Speaker 4: of calling that I had before.
Speaker 3: Greta, did you encounter those kinds of stories?
Speaker 1: I did, and all of those stories pissed me off. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right after my diagnosis, my closest friends and family sent
Speaker 1: me all of these kind of loss and renewal inspiration stories.
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know they are beautiful stories that
Speaker 1: I can appreciate more now. At the time they all
Speaker 1: pissed me off. A couple examples would be like, you know,
Speaker 1: Julie Andrews lost her voice after a surgery, but she
Speaker 1: started writing children's books with her daughter, and that's how
Speaker 1: her voice will speak to a new generation. I was like, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's beautiful, but like, what was Julie Andrews doing the
Speaker 1: two weeks after she realized she couldn't sing? Like that
Speaker 1: was what I wanted, not this kind of tidy, tied
Speaker 1: up with a bow story because I was just I
Speaker 1: felt so just kind of ravaged and torn open.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think rushing too soon, you know, the inspiration porn element,
Speaker 1: like the rushing too soon, it never works. A friend
Speaker 1: of mine was saying, you can't write about the plane
Speaker 1: crash while you're on the plane crash. There's an element
Speaker 1: of when you're in a process that's really painful and
Speaker 1: there's a dissolution that's happening, It's almost like the dissolution
Speaker 1: has to finish the entire process before the new thing
Speaker 1: can start to be born, and rushing it can kill
Speaker 1: that experience.
Speaker 3: Greta, what did that dissolution process look like for you?
Speaker 1: For me, the dissolution process looked like spending months just
Speaker 1: wandering around in the Southwest and unburdening myself of so
Speaker 1: many the things that I had. I mean, my physical
Speaker 1: possessions all had to be thrown out basically because the
Speaker 1: house I was living in I found out I had
Speaker 1: to move out suddenly it was full of mold. So
Speaker 1: it was like I was immediately unburdened of my physical
Speaker 1: possessions and my clothes, my books, my bed.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Then I kind of had to let go of my
Speaker 1: career and my professional life and admit that I had
Speaker 1: to focus on my body and focus on my health.
Speaker 1: And by leaving Los Angeles, I let go of a
Speaker 1: certain amount of my social experience. It really just felt
Speaker 1: like these layers of what I had and what I
Speaker 1: loved were just kind of being peeled away, one by
Speaker 1: one by one. I had an experience here in the
Speaker 1: Catskills a couple of years ago where I saw a
Speaker 1: deer had been killed on the road and it had
Speaker 1: been pushed to the side of the river, and it
Speaker 1: was a place where I walked almost every day, and
Speaker 1: over the course of four days, I saw this deer
Speaker 1: go from a full animal to being just a piece
Speaker 1: of a spine. And there was a way where it
Speaker 1: felt like my life got peeled down to just the bones.
Speaker 1: Just like here I am. I'm a body, and I'm consciousness.
Speaker 1: And the way that I witness and engage with the
Speaker 1: world around me, that's who I am now, Like it's
Speaker 1: not what I got paid to do. It's not even
Speaker 1: what I love doing. It's not who people think I am.
Speaker 1: It is my experience right now of being a witness
Speaker 1: to what is directly in front of me in this moment.
Speaker 4: Was there a moment when you realized that you had
Speaker 4: to kind of let go?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. My friend Christopher sent me this
Speaker 1: series of talks by Francis Weller, who's a grief psychologist,
Speaker 1: and when he first sent them to me again, I
Speaker 1: was kind of pissed off, Like I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't need these I don't need to grieve because my
Speaker 1: voice is just going to come back. My voice will heal,
Speaker 1: and why would I waste my time grieving if I'm
Speaker 1: gonna like have a miraculous healing or whatever. But then
Speaker 1: I had enough ups and downs and I was kind
Speaker 1: of recognizing, I don't think it's coming back the way
Speaker 1: that it was. No matter what I do, no matter
Speaker 1: how much of this like mind over matter, miraculous healing
Speaker 1: energy I'm trying to work with, my voice was just
Speaker 1: not coming back. And I finally listened to these tapes
Speaker 1: while I was walking in Escalante one day, and firstly,
Speaker 1: when Francis Weller started talking, I could hear he had
Speaker 1: an issue with his voice. He said, oh, he had
Speaker 1: a poll up on his vocal cords, and I immediately
Speaker 1: was like, okay, I like this person. And he was
Speaker 1: talking about the kind of sacred connection between grief and aliveness,
Speaker 1: and he says that grief and aliveness are like sisters.
Speaker 1: And I had always been so scared of grief because
Speaker 1: my best friend committed suicide when I was in high school.
Speaker 1: My great grandmother had been, you know, put into an
Speaker 1: insane asylum essentially for grief. My relationship with grief is
Speaker 1: like if you touch it, it will pull you under
Speaker 1: it and you will never come up. And so I was
Speaker 1: always very resistant to actually grieving what I had lost,
Speaker 1: But on the flip side of that, I kept diminishing
Speaker 1: my own pain, which you can't process your own pain
Speaker 1: if you're diminishing it. When I would say to myself, well,
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky I got to be a musician. What
Speaker 1: a gift that I got to do that? Yeah, or like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm at least I'm not living in a war torn
Speaker 1: place right now. You know, I have my safety and
Speaker 1: that's all, you know. I would do these things, which, yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's good to see the silver lining, but at
Speaker 1: the same time, I had this very real grief that
Speaker 1: was like a stone in my throat and I was
Speaker 1: not swallowing it and I was not addressing it, and like,
Speaker 1: I couldn't process it. So once I started just consciously grieving,
Speaker 1: I was thinking things in my head like I am
Speaker 1: grieving the fact that I have not been able to
Speaker 1: sing for nine months, or I am grieving the fact
Speaker 1: that I may never play a show again, or I
Speaker 1: am grieving the fact that I worked my whole life
Speaker 1: to train and build my voice and it was gone
Speaker 1: basically overnight.
Speaker 4: What was that thing you said again that grief is, Oh,
Speaker 4: it's like brings you into contact with being alive.
Speaker 1: There's a sacred link between grief and aliveness.
Speaker 4: Oh God, that's great.
Speaker 1: Oh and I really when I started working with the
Speaker 1: things that he was saying, they really changed me. One
Speaker 1: thing he said, he quotes James Hillman, who's the father
Speaker 1: of archetypal psychology, and the quote is something like, so
Speaker 1: often we try to work on the wound, but really
Speaker 1: the wound is trying to work on us. Like we
Speaker 1: go to therapy to try to fix the wound, but
Speaker 1: the wound is actually trying to fix us. And so
Speaker 1: at that point I started asking myself like, Okay, what
Speaker 1: could this vocal laws be trying to fix in me?
Speaker 1: And once I started thinking about that, I realized like
Speaker 1: even when I had had my perfect voice forever and ever,
Speaker 1: you know, like I was so hard on myself, Like
Speaker 1: I had this incredible self criticism, nothing was ever good
Speaker 1: enough for me. And and also I was really in
Speaker 1: this kind of keeping up with the Joneses artistic professional
Speaker 1: status world. I really place so much of my self
Speaker 1: worth on my professional accomplishments. So as I started looking at, well,
Speaker 1: what's this trying to heal in me? I was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: I think this is about self love, and I think
Speaker 1: this is about appreciating what I have with my voice.
Speaker 1: I think it's about stepping out of who people think
Speaker 1: I should be and becoming more of who I actually
Speaker 1: am or who I want to be.
Speaker 4: I think those of us who were raised as girls
Speaker 4: and women are trained to look happy and not dwell on.
Speaker 4: We don't want to be a downer. Nobody wants to
Speaker 4: be Debbie downer, but especially Utah. I grew up Mormon,
Speaker 4: there's very much happy facade. And I had to really
Speaker 4: crank down my Utah smile when I started traveling, because
Speaker 4: in a lot of parts in the world, people just
Speaker 4: think you're nuts but huge, huge smile. But I really did.
Speaker 4: I still want to sort of protect other people from
Speaker 4: knowing how deeply I'm feeling this. And I had friends
Speaker 4: who took me in because I couldn't work anymore. They
Speaker 4: were afraid that I was going to fall down my
Speaker 4: stairs in my house, so I moved in to what
Speaker 4: had been the maid's room off the kitchen with my
Speaker 4: friends and their two kids, and I really did feel
Speaker 4: like around them I had to present as Okay, I'm
Speaker 4: doing the work, I'm going to get better, I'm going
Speaker 4: to get out of your hair. So I guess I'm
Speaker 4: saying I hear you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really relate to that. Yeah, wanting to perform
Speaker 1: like you're helping me, and I appreciate your help. So
Speaker 1: I'm going to go ahead and heal myself real quick.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it.
Speaker 3: When we return into the wilderness. Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 3: So one of Caitlin's biggest questions has to do with purpose,
Speaker 3: how to find a new calling when you can't do
Speaker 3: the thing you feel like you are put on earth
Speaker 3: to do. And Greta told Caitlin a story about a
Speaker 3: realization she had after reading a book by this guy,
Speaker 3: Bill Platkin called Soulcraft. The book is all about going
Speaker 3: on wilderness fasts to find the deepest possible gift your
Speaker 3: soul is meant to bring into this world, the thing
Speaker 3: beneath being a writer, beneath being a singer. And so
Speaker 3: that's what Greta did. She does not recommend anyone try
Speaker 3: this without serious preparation and safety precautions, but she hiked
Speaker 3: down a canyon in Bear's Ears National Park with a
Speaker 3: friend and fasted for three days in the blazing sun
Speaker 3: and managed to have a vision without psychedelics.
Speaker 1: People can roll their eyes at me. That's totally fine.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I had this experience on the trip where I
Speaker 1: just got this sense I saw this image essentially of
Speaker 1: like a mirror, like I realized it was my It
Speaker 1: was just sort of my job to reflect, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of my writing does that,
Speaker 1: a lot of my teaching does that. It's just sort
Speaker 1: of this my ability to see and reflect the potentials
Speaker 1: in something else or someone else.
Speaker 3: Greta says after this desert vision trip, she realized she
Speaker 3: wanted to focus on helping other people find their unique voice,
Speaker 3: and she now teaches songwriting on a regular basis.
Speaker 1: I just kind of had this experience where it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that is that's one of the gifts I am meant
Speaker 1: to cultivate. And I don't know what avenue it will take.
Speaker 1: I don't know how that will take shape, but that
Speaker 1: is a gift that is here underneath all of the
Speaker 1: superficiality of who I am. And that's a gift that
Speaker 1: I'm meant to cultivate. And he talks about like every
Speaker 1: person having kind of a mythopoetic identity, So it's like
Speaker 1: I could say, like yeah, I'm Greta the singer. But
Speaker 1: there's really a much deeper aspect of identity that isn't
Speaker 1: that easily articulable, and it's not that easily categorized, and
Speaker 1: it's not sanctioned by capitalism and how I earn money
Speaker 1: and how people see me. And so I think for me,
Speaker 1: just like finding some of these deeper gifts and abilities
Speaker 1: and then learning how to cultivate them and then eventually
Speaker 1: finding the avenues for them that gave me so much
Speaker 1: purpose and meaning.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry I'm quiet because I'm thinking I'm absorbing all
Speaker 4: of this. I am envious of the time to go
Speaker 4: out into the forest. There was a period when it
Speaker 4: was at its worst, when there just wasn't much I
Speaker 4: could do, and I had a lot of silence, partly
Speaker 4: because my head was silent and I would just go
Speaker 4: and walk in the park. But I did feel this
Speaker 4: sort of engine underneath that I had to do these therapies.
Speaker 4: And I managed to move out a year ago, and
Speaker 4: I know, I feel like I'm still kind of running
Speaker 4: the race where because I'm a freelancer, if I take
Speaker 4: time off, then I'm not making any money. But I
Speaker 4: think there's a way to prioritize. I don't know, I'm
Speaker 4: not making a lot of sense right now, but.
Speaker 1: Do you beat yourself up about where you are in
Speaker 1: the process.
Speaker 4: Sometimes there was a period where I felt like I
Speaker 4: had found a kind of peace with not being able
Speaker 4: to read comfortably again, and it was like I was
Speaker 4: living very low to the ground, just having small thoughts
Speaker 4: and having small needs and no dreams about the future,
Speaker 4: just being kind of in the moment. But then I
Speaker 4: got reading back, and then it's like, Okay, all the
Speaker 4: obligation is back, all the expectations are back. Now I
Speaker 4: can write again. So I have to keep kind of
Speaker 4: batting those expectations down, but they still come up.
Speaker 1: It's funny, every day I feel like I have a
Speaker 1: different level of desire. Sometimes in my mind, I'm like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: you know what. Shania Twain lost her voice for seven years, Okay,
Speaker 1: and she was Shanaia Twain, and then she got a
Speaker 1: surgery and her voice came back and she performed again.
Speaker 1: So sometimes I'll have it. I'll have someone who's like
Speaker 1: a patron saint, and I will, you know, metaphorically, light
Speaker 1: my candle every day and be like please please, saying Shania,
Speaker 1: give me this back, you know, and I create this
Speaker 1: dream that I'm gonna, like in my early forties or
Speaker 1: even in my mid forties, I'm gonna write the best
Speaker 1: album I've ever written. I'm going to be touring and
Speaker 1: my voice will heal, and the fantasy just like lives
Speaker 1: with me. I mean, I would love to be able
Speaker 1: to sing the way that I used to sing, like
Speaker 1: I miss it all the time. It also felt so
Speaker 1: linked to my sensuality, yea, being able to sing that
Speaker 1: the way that I did. So much of it was
Speaker 1: tied to what I thought it meant to be a
Speaker 1: woman and being able to be seen and being able
Speaker 1: to express myself and having people sing songs I had
Speaker 1: written like that was the best feeling that I had
Speaker 1: felt in my life till that point.
Speaker 4: I absolutely seduced people with my words, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So then when it's gone, I did have a sense
Speaker 1: of like, well, who am how am I gonna? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What's attractive about me? Now? You know?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And that's a whole other exploration.
Speaker 4: It is.
Speaker 3: Caitlin. The other day you said you were scared to
Speaker 3: want to write again, to like want it as badly
Speaker 3: and love it as much as you did, and seems
Speaker 3: like you still do because you're afraid that you will
Speaker 3: never be the same writer get to the same quote
Speaker 3: unquote level. Yeah, and I'm wondering, like, Greta, do you
Speaker 3: relate to that?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had this teacher once who told a story.
Speaker 1: He told me a story about how he used to
Speaker 1: have two cats and the two cats would play together
Speaker 1: all the time, and then one of the cats stopped
Speaker 1: playing and he took it to the vet and they
Speaker 1: found out there was a tumor that was pressing on
Speaker 1: one of its nerves, so it was in pain whenever
Speaker 1: it would start playing. But then they removed the tumor,
Speaker 1: and the cat just continued to not play anymore because
Speaker 1: it was the memory of the pain was still with it.
Speaker 1: And he took it to the vet over and over,
Speaker 1: and the vet said, I can assure you it's not
Speaker 1: in pain. I can assure you it's not in pain.
Speaker 1: But the cat remembered, well, when I play, I hurt myself,
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to play anymore. And in my experience,
Speaker 1: even when I've had different kinds of vocal access, there's
Speaker 1: still this wounding on my relationship with singing and with songwriting,
Speaker 1: and there's this kind of all or nothing idea that
Speaker 1: I really had to move through, you know. For example,
Speaker 1: like I can't go out and play a set of
Speaker 1: my own music. I can't go play forty five minutes.
Speaker 1: I just don't have the stamina, even on my best
Speaker 1: vocal days. And it's really easy for me sometimes to go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if I can't have that, then why bother at all?
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: But the truth is for me that getting that experience
Speaker 1: of playing back, like actually singing a little bit for
Speaker 1: fun and kind of remembering that it's okay to play,
Speaker 1: and like it's okay if it doesn't sound the way
Speaker 1: it should or if it doesn't feel exactly how I
Speaker 1: think it is. It's like I have to re teach
Speaker 1: myself how to have fun doing it.
Speaker 4: So I delayed trying to read for pleasure for a
Speaker 4: long time because I didn't even as my reading was
Speaker 4: getting better and better, I didn't want to associate that
Speaker 4: deep pleasure with nausea, just like you were saying with
Speaker 4: that wound. So it's just maybe eight months ago that
Speaker 4: I finally read a book for pleasure and it sang
Speaker 4: in me the way my inner voice used to sing
Speaker 4: in me. I was reading in a cafe and just cry, Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's amazing. Yeah. I read that book and I had
Speaker 4: her voice in my head and I felt like, Okay,
Speaker 4: now I can write now. Now it's back. But it faded.
Speaker 4: It's like a flame that doesn't stay lit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I feel that. I'm curious as you're kind
Speaker 1: of learning to write again. It's an experience most people
Speaker 1: don't have this happen in a lifetime, where they lose
Speaker 1: an ability and then they suddenly can start learning as
Speaker 1: a beginner again. I'm curious just what that experience has
Speaker 1: felt like for you when you are writing. Are there
Speaker 1: any moments where like, oh, this is it? Like I
Speaker 1: feel like this is a magical sentence.
Speaker 4: I feel like I've told you oway that I feel
Speaker 4: when I'm writing now, I feel like I'm kind of
Speaker 4: imitating my own voice. It's a much more rational process
Speaker 4: where I can say, Okay, I want an O sound,
Speaker 4: I want it to do this, I want to say this.
Speaker 4: Does it feel different for you writing songs for this
Speaker 4: new voice that you have, it's the experience inside of
Speaker 4: you different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. The way I used to write songs was
Speaker 1: what I called the fumble mumble method. So I would
Speaker 1: just like sing gibberish until I found the words I
Speaker 1: so relate to with what you said about how oh
Speaker 1: there should be an O sound here, like oh, there
Speaker 1: should be a sound. I really would kind of sing
Speaker 1: the vowel sounds on a melody and then eventually they
Speaker 1: would become words. So that was my process for writing songs.
Speaker 1: And when I couldn't do that, it was like my
Speaker 1: entire emotional circulation system just stopped, screeched to a halt.
Speaker 1: Like I couldn't sing, I couldn't write songs. My voice
Speaker 1: just can't do what I hear. But I still have
Speaker 1: my ability to like feel and amplify an emotion to
Speaker 1: the point that it could become a piece of music. Oh,
Speaker 1: so I find myself focusing a little bit more on
Speaker 1: the aspect of I'm sorry, well.
Speaker 4: No, go ahead, it's great. Can can you say that again?
Speaker 4: To feel and amplify, oh yeah, to.
Speaker 1: Be able yeah, to be able to amplify I mean
Speaker 1: essentially for songwriting for me is like amplifying in emotion,
Speaker 1: usually one that is very chaotic, and then translating it
Speaker 1: into something that is a coherent piece of art. So
Speaker 1: I used to always write melody first and then fit
Speaker 1: words into a melody. And then I now turn the
Speaker 1: process inside out, where now I write the lyrics first
Speaker 1: and then I set them to a melody. And what's
Speaker 1: funny is I can now write a song in like
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes, whereas songs used to take me like maybe
Speaker 1: twenty hours. Once I have the words, I can write
Speaker 1: the music like very very quickly. Well, I guess, I
Speaker 1: wonder do you find the story by the process of writing, Like,
Speaker 1: how would you relate?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so many of the short stories or fiction that
Speaker 4: I wrote would start with the first line and then
Speaker 4: it would all sort of bloom into being in my
Speaker 4: imagination from there. Like when people would talk about outlining
Speaker 4: a story, Yeah, that's homework, working out the mechanics of
Speaker 4: a story. I could that, but it would be after
Speaker 4: feeling the shape of the story instinctively first. But now
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm starting with the mechanics and there's
Speaker 4: feeling there. There's still feeling there. I'm finding flashes.
Speaker 1: I think my experience is that whenever I would have
Speaker 1: a little glimpse where I sort of felt like myself
Speaker 1: where I could access that, I would just try to
Speaker 1: amplify it and make it last as long as possible,
Speaker 1: to be aware in those moments like oh, I'm writing
Speaker 1: a song, I have goosebumps, I'm in the magic, and
Speaker 1: to just not let anything get in on that until
Speaker 1: the experience was over.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: At this point in a conversation, I was itching to
Speaker 3: have Caitlin share her writing with Greta, so I asked
Speaker 3: her to read something from our past.
Speaker 4: I was going to read this very short prose, but
Speaker 4: I have a poem that I think is actually really relevant.
Speaker 4: So and I actually haven't memorized I think. So this
Speaker 4: is New Year's Day. I will not tell you everything
Speaker 4: will be okay. I will not tell you love congs all.
Speaker 4: I'm not that kind of liar. It can be years
Speaker 4: of not all right. You can die waiting for everything.
Speaker 1: To be all right.
Speaker 4: Your wallet, cell phone, wedding ring, and a baggy and
Speaker 4: still not all right. I don't know what to tell
Speaker 4: you except the light stayed a minute longer tonight than
Speaker 4: it did last night. Accept your hair smells like soap,
Speaker 4: and a fat raccoon reached its hand out from under
Speaker 4: your car. A cartoon exclamation. Love won't build you a
Speaker 4: castle of everything is all right. So love for the pleasure,
Speaker 4: Love because she never wears high heels. Love the Alleluiah
Speaker 4: of his voice in your phone, because you want to
Speaker 4: be new even now, face infant naked in the bathroom mirror.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Caitlin, that is so beautiful. Ah, I
Speaker 1: want to set that to music. I'm not joking. That
Speaker 1: is so beautiful. Could I ask about what was happening?
Speaker 1: Like the life circumstances.
Speaker 4: The New Year's Day poem was. I wrote that on
Speaker 4: New Year's Day, and I was thinking about my mother
Speaker 4: when I was about thirty six. We were always hoping
Speaker 4: that she would get better. She had bipolar disorder, just
Speaker 4: like a whole whole lot of things layered, and I
Speaker 4: had always been feeling like, Okay, she's going to get better.
Speaker 4: She's going to get through this hard portion or this
Speaker 4: hard portion, and then everything will be okay. And instead
Speaker 4: she died. And my dad asked me how I could
Speaker 4: handle the idea that she was dead if I didn't
Speaker 4: believe in heaven, if I didn't believe that I was
Speaker 4: going to see her again, And I told him that
Speaker 4: I felt like the fact that I don't believe necessarily
Speaker 4: that I'm going to see people on the other side.
Speaker 4: It helps me be very present with them right now.
Speaker 4: So it was a lot about that, But you know,
Speaker 4: it came to me very quickly on that day, and
Speaker 4: I walked from one side of San Francisco to the
Speaker 4: other listening to that poem on spool in my head,
Speaker 4: and by the end of the day I had it.
Speaker 1: Wow, had you typically written that way? Like just walking
Speaker 1: and writing in your head like that? That was your process?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a big part of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why don't we play a demo of Greta's a
Speaker 3: song that you're working on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a new one. This is like, now
Speaker 1: that I've kind of learned how to whisper sing, I'm
Speaker 1: also trying I have in my twenty years as a
Speaker 1: professional musician, I could never write a love song. So
Speaker 1: my new challenge is to write only love songs, or
Speaker 1: at least try. Even when I have heartbreak songs, I
Speaker 1: try to kind of turn them out and turn them
Speaker 1: into love songs. So this is a little piece of
Speaker 1: a minute of a love song.
Speaker 5: Ah in love tonight just bo.
Speaker 4: And brath and starlight? How could he fin.
Speaker 5: To feel you all? How could he forget you?
Speaker 6: Re Foller to grown, How could I.
Speaker 5: Login to be your choice? And the sound of the limb?
Speaker 5: How did I go nom again?
Speaker 6: How did I go no again? How did I go no?
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can really hear my voice
Speaker 1: in that I can.
Speaker 4: There's so much.
Speaker 3: Feeling in that thank you that really moved me.
Speaker 1: I can feel I'm touching something different. Yeah, there's been
Speaker 1: a realization of like, Okay, there's not like a back
Speaker 1: to normal of my singing, and so the only thing
Speaker 1: I can really do is start to embrace what I
Speaker 1: have now, which is this much weirder, stranger voice, and
Speaker 1: to actually go with it. So I've been finding models
Speaker 1: of other voices, like people who have strange voices who
Speaker 1: I think are beautiful, and just to really try to
Speaker 1: embrace it. And it's interesting now that we're entering in
Speaker 1: this moment of artificial intelligence making music, because it's all
Speaker 1: so glossy and so perfect, and they're just these computerized,
Speaker 1: perfect voices, And in a way, I'm kind of like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have a strange, different voice now that actually is
Speaker 1: something that will be unique compared to most of what
Speaker 1: we're hearing. And so there's this way where I've just
Speaker 1: been like slowly learning to fall in love with the
Speaker 1: thing that I have rather than longing for what I
Speaker 1: used to have. But it's sad. I mean, I can't
Speaker 1: watch my old performances, Like when I watch friends play shows.
Speaker 1: It's so bittersweet because I'm so happy for them and
Speaker 1: I love their music, and also I'm always crying. There
Speaker 1: was kind of a funny moment I went to see
Speaker 1: Nico Case play, and Nico Case texturally her voice is
Speaker 1: probably the most similar to mine, just as she has
Speaker 1: that kind of like train whistle high call out voice,
Speaker 1: and that's like the way I most miss singing. And
Speaker 1: when she started singing, I was just sobbing, and it
Speaker 1: was funny. I was like, Wow, I really look like
Speaker 1: the biggest Mico Case fan in the entire world. Which
Speaker 1: I am a fan, not to the point where I
Speaker 1: would be sobbing at her show, but you know, I
Speaker 1: am a fan. But yeah, I still I still feel
Speaker 1: a lot of that, like grief and loss and pain,
Speaker 1: but I also am uncovering a new way of making
Speaker 1: things that I wouldn't have had before.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that was the proxy conversation.
Speaker 1: And I would love to stay in touch and just
Speaker 1: hear more about your experience as your likewise.
Speaker 3: A week later I checked in with Caitlin. I wasn't
Speaker 3: sure how she was feeling and if she got the
Speaker 3: answers she needed.
Speaker 4: It was a lot.
Speaker 3: Why was it a lot for you?
Speaker 4: It's all just very emotional.
Speaker 3: It was emotional for obvious reasons. There were some hard moments,
Speaker 3: like when she realized how young Greta is that she
Speaker 3: had about twenty years on Greta.
Speaker 4: It does hit different now when I have white hair
Speaker 4: and my body is aching in places, and you know,
Speaker 4: I know that I'm on the downslope.
Speaker 3: But Caitlyn says, Greta's age doesn't discount what she had
Speaker 3: to say. The conversation was sticking with her, especially something
Speaker 3: Greta said about not being to beholden to the ways
Speaker 3: she used to make her art.
Speaker 4: Like there was a thing that she said about feeling
Speaker 4: to follow the feeling, and you know, it doesn't matter
Speaker 4: if it's words or pictures, it's not all or nothing, right.
Speaker 3: And actually just this morning she had a feeling and
Speaker 3: followed it.
Speaker 4: I can't say that it's because of the conversation, but
Speaker 4: last night, this morning I dreamed a poem. This morning,
Speaker 4: he sat up in bed, and I said, that's a gift.
Speaker 1: It's a gift, Oh my god.
Speaker 4: And I got my phone and I started typing it.
Speaker 3: In the poem came to Caitlin kind of like the
Speaker 3: old way, but this time I wasn't hearing a voice.
Speaker 3: It was like watching a movie in her head and
Speaker 3: describing what she saw and felt.
Speaker 4: Can I read it to you?
Speaker 3: I was gonna ask, please, So.
Speaker 4: This is the title. I woke saying thanks. In the dream,
Speaker 4: I promise a poem to the women who walk with me,
Speaker 4: pacing slow to the funeral. Were stopped by the man
Speaker 4: who failed to seduce me, and so tried my mother.
Speaker 5: Next.
Speaker 4: What can I do? I take a swing. He laughs
Speaker 4: at my weak right, but I get him good with
Speaker 4: the left. His face maybe the last she saw, and
Speaker 4: I feel his teeth give under my fist. It gets messy.
Speaker 4: He's still trying to laugh, his glasses ruined. We walk on.
Speaker 4: In another time. We would have washed my mother's body,
Speaker 4: my hand lifting hers like dancers, my sister cupping her head,
Speaker 4: quiet voice, stitching up the three of us skin water.
Speaker 4: We touched the only body we ever lived inside. In
Speaker 4: the dream, the women watch me paint this poem on
Speaker 4: rough wood. My brush glides iron oxide red. I didn't
Speaker 4: know you'd gone I paint. I didn't know they touched
Speaker 4: my shoulders. The women one on each side, and the
Speaker 4: dream rests a while in silence.
Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
Speaker 4: Thanks brain.
Speaker 3: What do you think of that poem? What was it
Speaker 3: like writing it?
Speaker 4: It felt a little more organic. It's like, oh, maybe
Speaker 4: there's another way to write that isn't the voice and
Speaker 4: isn't the Frankenstein method. Yeah, it was more physical than rational,
Speaker 4: which is I think that's that feels like it fits
Speaker 4: me better.
Speaker 3: Thank you to Caitlin Meyer for being our guest. In
Speaker 3: her most recent email, she told me she's joined a
Speaker 3: writing group and has been enjoy writing fragments and notebooks.
Speaker 3: You can follow along and support Caitlin's work on her Patreon.
Speaker 3: She also wrote the book Wiving, a literary memoir about
Speaker 3: escaping abuse, religion, and the patriarchy, for the freedom to
Speaker 3: be alone. I very much enjoyed it, And thank you
Speaker 3: to Greta Morgan for being our proxy and for letting
Speaker 3: us play your springtime carnivore song Into the Avalanche, which
Speaker 3: you're listening to right now. Greta wrote a beautiful memoir
Speaker 3: called The Lost Voice, where she goes way more into
Speaker 3: detail about what she shared in this episode. She also
Speaker 3: has a Patreon where you can support her work and
Speaker 3: a newsletter where you can keep up with her music
Speaker 3: writing and songwriting workshops. Just go to www dot Gretimorgan
Speaker 3: dot com. We'll link to everything in our show notes,
Speaker 3: and I really hope you check out their work. I
Speaker 3: am such a fan of both of them. Prexy will
Speaker 3: be back on Tuesday, May fifth, and then every other
Speaker 3: Tuesday until summer. Follow the show so you don't miss
Speaker 3: the next case. And if you're new here, I recommend
Speaker 3: trying Bisexual Life Guy. It's one of the clearest examples
Speaker 3: of what the show does. Prexy is an independent show,
Speaker 3: which means it grows almost entirely by word of mouth.
Speaker 3: So if this episode made you think of someone, send
Speaker 3: it to them. That one text is how people find us.
Speaker 3: And if you want to support the show, you can
Speaker 3: join us on Patreon starting at five dollars a month.
Speaker 3: You'll get ad free listening, bonus episodes, and access to
Speaker 3: group zoom Hags, or you can join for free for
Speaker 3: our newsletter to get episode liner notes and behind the
Speaker 3: scenes gossip Just go to Patreon dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 3: Thank you to everyone who's already signed up. We literally
Speaker 3: could not have made this spring season without you. And
Speaker 3: if you've been thinking about joining, this is a great time.
Speaker 3: It really is what keeps the show going. This season
Speaker 3: was also supported by the Independent Media Initiative, and.
Speaker 1: We're really grateful.
Speaker 3: This episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pooley,
Speaker 3: and produced by me with help from Rennie Spernofsky Music.
Speaker 3: In this episode by Tim Howard and our theme music
Speaker 3: is by Brickmaster Cylinder. Proxy is a proud member of
Speaker 3: Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator owned, listener
Speaker 3: supportive podcasts. Adreymartovich is the executive producer of Radiotopia. Juri
Speaker 3: Losordo is the director of Operations Discover Audio with vision
Speaker 3: at Radiotopia dot fm. You can follow us on Instagram
Speaker 3: at Proxy podcast and I'm at Yoaishaw And remember, if
Speaker 3: you have a niche emotional conundrum you would like investigated
Speaker 3: by Proxy, get in touch at proxydepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3: We're taking cases. Okay, thanks for being here, guys. Bye,
Speaker 3: Any last questions?
Speaker 4: Yeah, can you want to come to Portugal and hang
Speaker 4: out for a minute.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say I wish we were friends
Speaker 1: this whole time.
Speaker 2: That was Caitlin lost the voice in her head from Proxy.
Speaker 2: You can find more episodes of Proxy at the link
Speaker 2: in our show notes, and if there's a podcast you
Speaker 2: are really loving these days, be sure to email us.
Speaker 2: You can reach us at slight Change at pushkin dot fm,
Speaker 2: and we'll consider featuring it in the slight Change feed
Speaker 2: at some point this year. We'll be back in a
Speaker 2: week with another episode of a slight change of plans.
Speaker 2: I'll see you then,