WEBVTT - Caitlin Lost the Voice in Her Head 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:29.396 --> 0:00:32.636 Hey everyone, it's me Maya. Today we're bringing you an 0:00:32.676 --> 0:00:36.836 episode from Proxy, hosted by Joe Shah, who you might 0:00:36.876 --> 0:00:41.236 already know from NPRS in Visibilia. Proxy is built around 0:00:41.236 --> 0:00:44.316 a simple idea. Whatever you might be going through, no 0:00:44.396 --> 0:00:47.836 matter how specific or hard to explain, you're not alone. 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:51.796 There is someone else out there somewhere who truly gets it. 0:00:52.316 --> 0:00:55.236 In each episode, Yoe connects her guests with someone they 0:00:55.276 --> 0:00:59.036 may have never met otherwise, but who understands something essential 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:03.716 about their experience. The intimate, searching conversations that follow feel 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:06.436 right at home here. On a slight change of plans, 0:01:06.956 --> 0:01:09.836 the episode you're about to hear Katelyn Lost the Voice 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:12.836 in her Head is about something I know all too well, 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:15.756 what happens when you can't do the thing you love 0:01:15.836 --> 0:01:19.156 the most anymore, the thing you've built your whole life 0:01:19.196 --> 0:01:21.836 and identity around. I hope you enjoy it. 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:26.316 If you had to vocalize the sound of this conundrum, 0:01:26.316 --> 0:01:27.276 woa would it sound like? 0:01:31.396 --> 0:01:32.396 It's that wind? 0:01:33.996 --> 0:01:36.716 Hmmm? The wind outside your window? 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:38.556 Yeah? 0:01:38.716 --> 0:01:39.276 Why wind? 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:47.276 It's not silence, but it's it's not saying anything. 0:01:56.716 --> 0:02:02.276 Hello, prexy listeners, we are back. I'm the aishaw on proxy. 0:02:02.756 --> 0:02:05.916 We believe no one is ever alone with their problem, 0:02:06.276 --> 0:02:10.716 no matter how niche, no matter how weird, because statistically, 0:02:11.316 --> 0:02:14.796 somewhere out there is someone who gets it, and through 0:02:14.836 --> 0:02:18.756 the powers of reporting, we find them. In case you 0:02:18.756 --> 0:02:20.956 haven't heard the show, what we do is put these 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:24.396 two people in conversation to see what they can learn 0:02:24.436 --> 0:02:27.436 from each other, and hopefully so we can have a 0:02:27.436 --> 0:02:32.396 good but also awkward, but also beautiful time together. Today's 0:02:32.436 --> 0:02:35.836 case the writer who woke up one day with no 0:02:35.956 --> 0:02:39.396 words in our head. What do you do when the 0:02:39.436 --> 0:02:43.436 thing that gives your life meaning this appears. That's after 0:02:43.476 --> 0:03:15.076 the break. Last year, I got an email with a 0:03:15.076 --> 0:03:19.916 subject line that got my attention. It was just three words, 0:03:20.396 --> 0:03:25.676 inner Narrator died. The email was from a woman named 0:03:25.756 --> 0:03:29.916 Kaitlyn Meyer, a poet, memorist, an essayist who had lived 0:03:29.996 --> 0:03:32.836 with the company of her inner narrator all her life 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:39.076 until one day it disappeared, along with her ability to write. 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:42.556 I imagine for a long time, when people ask you 0:03:42.596 --> 0:03:46.396 to introduce yourself in these kinds of interviews, would you say. 0:03:46.316 --> 0:03:49.916 I'm a writer? But yeah, Over the last few years, 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:53.036 I do feel this drop into the pit of my 0:03:53.076 --> 0:03:58.556 stomach when I say it, because it doesn't feel completely true. 0:04:00.156 --> 0:04:04.356 Caitlyn is fifty seven with a septum piercing and boyish 0:04:04.356 --> 0:04:08.636 white hair. She looks cool. If I saw her in 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:13.836 a line up, I'd be like, she's an artist. Caitlin 0:04:13.916 --> 0:04:17.316 told me she spent decades teaching herself how to write, 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:21.036 learning to listen to the voice in her head, and 0:04:21.076 --> 0:04:25.236 then in her forties, she reorganized her entire life around 0:04:25.236 --> 0:04:28.396 that voice. She left her husband, she got rid of 0:04:28.436 --> 0:04:32.676 her apartment, went part time at her translation job, just 0:04:32.796 --> 0:04:37.036 enough for food, rent plane tickets, and she started wandering. 0:04:39.996 --> 0:04:42.956 The intention was to go places she didn't know anyone, 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:45.996 where she didn't speak the language, so she'd be forced 0:04:46.036 --> 0:04:47.996 to be alone and focus on her writing. 0:04:48.876 --> 0:04:52.756 I'd stay for the length of a tourist visa wherever 0:04:52.796 --> 0:04:56.516 I went, and that was about the right amount of time, 0:04:56.556 --> 0:04:58.956 because I'd start to get sucked into a social scene 0:04:59.516 --> 0:05:02.436 and then it was time to go. Wow. 0:05:03.076 --> 0:05:08.996 That is committing to the bit, structurally forcing herself into loneliness. 0:05:09.516 --> 0:05:15.316 And it was wonderful because when I was partnered. Every 0:05:15.316 --> 0:05:19.076 time I was partnered with a man, they were jealous 0:05:19.116 --> 0:05:22.756 of the time that I spent writing. I had to 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:26.196 steal time to write. I had to fit it in 0:05:26.236 --> 0:05:29.476 the corners of the day. I had to fight for 0:05:29.556 --> 0:05:30.796 the television to be off. 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:35.556 I started reading Caitlin's writing for the story, and it 0:05:35.636 --> 0:05:40.556 is really fucking good. She writes about escaping traditional womanhood 0:05:40.636 --> 0:05:43.956 in ways that don't feel preachy but make me feel 0:05:43.956 --> 0:05:46.756 like another way is possible, and she has a real 0:05:46.796 --> 0:05:50.716 gift with words that cut with such precision they hurt. 0:05:51.156 --> 0:05:54.316 There were moments reading I'd inhale sharply like I was 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:58.636 eating something spicy. And there was this one nonfiction essay 0:05:58.716 --> 0:06:02.156 she wrote about a former lover that felt like the 0:06:02.196 --> 0:06:05.716 wildest foreshadowing of what would one day happen to Caitlin. 0:06:06.916 --> 0:06:10.636 In the essay, her lover all so a writer and memorist, 0:06:11.036 --> 0:06:15.356 he suddenly loses his memory and forgets their entire relationship, 0:06:15.836 --> 0:06:18.556 and he asks Caitlin to write about what's happening to 0:06:18.636 --> 0:06:22.316 him because, as he says, I don't know if I'll 0:06:22.356 --> 0:06:26.516 get my brain back. And then just five years later, 0:06:27.236 --> 0:06:30.476 Caitlin is settled in Portugal. She's coming out with her 0:06:30.476 --> 0:06:34.156 first traditionally published book, with her first book launch, her 0:06:34.196 --> 0:06:37.156 first big book review in the San Francisco Chronicle with 0:06:37.156 --> 0:06:37.876 a big photo. 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:41.036 But of course I was already working on the next book. 0:06:41.116 --> 0:06:42.556 It was already going to be better. 0:06:42.996 --> 0:06:45.636 And one day Caitlin is walking up the hill to 0:06:45.676 --> 0:06:48.556 the place she likes to write, and her footland's funny 0:06:48.876 --> 0:06:51.196 on the path and she stumbles. 0:06:51.716 --> 0:06:55.396 I wasn't even aware of having hit my head. What 0:06:55.476 --> 0:06:59.476 I do know is that I was like, oh, I 0:06:59.556 --> 0:07:01.316 just took a little tumble. I'm going to get up, 0:07:01.996 --> 0:07:05.436 and I couldn't get up because I was so dizzy. 0:07:06.876 --> 0:07:09.956 It didn't seem like a big hit, but ended up 0:07:09.956 --> 0:07:14.916 with a concussion. Caitlin had had concussions before, so she 0:07:14.996 --> 0:07:19.916 knew the drill. She took it easy, avoided screens. But 0:07:19.996 --> 0:07:23.596 over the next few months the symptoms got worse. She 0:07:23.676 --> 0:07:28.156 kept getting tired and seasick. She couldn't balance very well, 0:07:28.756 --> 0:07:33.036 She had trouble finding words in conversation. She couldn't read, 0:07:33.716 --> 0:07:37.556 she couldn't write. She felt like an old lady all 0:07:37.596 --> 0:07:38.156 of a sudden. 0:07:38.956 --> 0:07:44.996 But I didn't really realize that the inner narrator was 0:07:45.076 --> 0:07:53.236 gone for a while. I think I recall walking in 0:07:51.996 --> 0:08:01.596 the park and realizing that there were no words in 0:08:01.636 --> 0:08:14.476 my head, like none and I saw a goat and 0:08:14.516 --> 0:08:20.796 I had to like really crank to find the word 0:08:21.956 --> 0:08:31.156 for goat. I thought in images and feelings, but I 0:08:31.196 --> 0:08:37.636 didn't think in words anymore. 0:08:43.836 --> 0:08:49.076 Caitlin eventually got a diagnosis for post concussion syndrome. She 0:08:49.116 --> 0:08:52.876 couldn't work, so her friends took her in and for 0:08:52.916 --> 0:08:56.356 the next three years, Caitlin went to doctor visit after 0:08:56.476 --> 0:09:00.716 doctor visit. She took long walks and did lots of 0:09:00.836 --> 0:09:05.516 rehab what her friends called visual torture, doing things like 0:09:05.596 --> 0:09:09.396 bouncing and catching balls, all while the voice in her 0:09:09.436 --> 0:09:10.756 head was silent. 0:09:12.076 --> 0:09:16.516 In one sense, it was a real Buddhist being in 0:09:16.556 --> 0:09:25.476 the moment kind of experience, which in some ways was nice. 0:09:25.956 --> 0:09:28.356 Why was it nice because I. 0:09:28.276 --> 0:09:35.276 Also didn't have the voice telling me what I had 0:09:35.316 --> 0:09:38.916 to do. I didn't have the voice telling me that 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:42.596 I was an impostor. It was nice to have that 0:09:42.716 --> 0:09:44.276 voice shut up. 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:49.956 Today, Caitlin's back to working part time at her translation job. 0:09:50.676 --> 0:09:55.796 She can talk, walk, read, and she can technically write again. 0:09:56.596 --> 0:10:00.116 She boasts short essays with lots of photos on Patreon, 0:10:00.796 --> 0:10:03.756 and she did write a poem the other week, but 0:10:03.876 --> 0:10:08.676 it didn't feel the same. After years of trying different techniques, 0:10:09.276 --> 0:10:13.996 typing without looking at the screen, voice dictation, writing by hand. 0:10:14.796 --> 0:10:18.396 She just misses her inner voice, her narrator. 0:10:21.316 --> 0:10:28.196 My narrator before was they were non binary, by the way, 0:10:28.236 --> 0:10:35.636 and they would It was almost like a song. It 0:10:35.716 --> 0:10:39.596 was all about this sort of resonance inside my head. 0:10:40.676 --> 0:10:45.036 I could tell myself stories to fall asleep. I would 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:47.996 just live in whatever I was writing at the time. 0:10:49.876 --> 0:10:59.036 And now I do think in words. But that writing voice, 0:10:59.436 --> 0:11:04.596 the storytelling voice, the poetic voice, the way that I 0:11:04.636 --> 0:11:13.716 always heard what I wrote, is still gone, and I 0:11:13.756 --> 0:11:16.676 don't really know how to write without it. 0:11:21.796 --> 0:11:25.076 And this is why Caitlin came to us. 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:28.196 I would get up every morning and I would know 0:11:28.276 --> 0:11:29.996 what I was doing that day, and it was the 0:11:30.076 --> 0:11:35.116 thing I most wanted to do, and I was good 0:11:35.156 --> 0:11:41.436 at it and people wanted it. Now I really have 0:11:41.556 --> 0:11:50.236 to stretch to find a point. How do I move forward? 0:11:51.836 --> 0:11:54.636 How do I find the plot? 0:11:59.996 --> 0:12:04.996 After the break? I find Caitlin a proxy, someone who 0:12:05.076 --> 0:12:20.996 also lost their voice. Kaitlyn, Hie, how are you doing? 0:12:21.996 --> 0:12:25.156 I'm okay, I'm nervous, I'm excited. 0:12:25.956 --> 0:12:28.836 Are there any updates that I should know about? 0:12:30.076 --> 0:12:33.956 I mean, I'm just keeping on. I've painted a couple 0:12:33.916 --> 0:12:34.796 of things that I like. 0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:41.796 So yeah, after the concussion, Caitlyn started painting. It's not 0:12:41.876 --> 0:12:45.956 our calling, per se, but she's really into it. Recently, 0:12:46.196 --> 0:12:48.476 she painted a dead goal that washed up on the 0:12:48.516 --> 0:12:51.276 beach near her house. I don't think I've ever seen 0:12:51.316 --> 0:12:52.556 a painting of a dead goal. 0:12:53.796 --> 0:12:55.036 Well, I can send it to you. 0:12:57.996 --> 0:13:01.436 Uh, okay, so the proxy is here, Okay, all right? 0:13:03.716 --> 0:13:06.436 Should I let them in? You ready? 0:13:06.716 --> 0:13:06.916 Yes? 0:13:07.916 --> 0:13:08.156 Yes? 0:13:10.236 --> 0:13:15.156 So the proxy I knew. 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:18.556 I wanted to find an artist, someone who'd spent years 0:13:18.596 --> 0:13:21.796 mastering their craft, devoted their life to it, and then 0:13:21.836 --> 0:13:24.756 lost their ability to do the thing they loved, the 0:13:24.796 --> 0:13:25.076 thing that. 0:13:25.156 --> 0:13:25.956 Gave them purpose. 0:13:26.836 --> 0:13:33.076 And surprisingly I found options. There are unfortunately, way too 0:13:33.156 --> 0:13:35.996 many artists who've lost their ability to make their art. 0:13:36.876 --> 0:13:41.196 I found a painter, a few musicians, some dancers. I 0:13:41.236 --> 0:13:44.036 even found a writer who'd lost her ability to write 0:13:44.036 --> 0:13:47.116 in a freak health incident, but through years of hard work, 0:13:47.356 --> 0:13:51.596 got it back. But I thought, would it be painful 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:54.116 for Caitlin to talk to our writer who could write again, 0:13:55.276 --> 0:13:59.476 because she doesn't know if she ever will. And then 0:13:59.516 --> 0:14:03.876 I found someone who felt closer to the place Caitlin occupies, 0:14:04.596 --> 0:14:08.676 someone who also lost the thing that defined them, who 0:14:08.676 --> 0:14:11.756 built their her entire life around a voice and then 0:14:11.876 --> 0:14:19.796 lost it. Meet Greta Morgan. Hi, so nice to meet you, Caitlin. 0:14:20.316 --> 0:14:24.116 It's really good to meet you. Greta Greta Morgan is 0:14:24.156 --> 0:14:27.556 a songwriter, musician, and singer who wrote a memoir called 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:31.756 The Lost Voice. She says before losing it, she worked 0:14:31.756 --> 0:14:33.996 her ass off to get her singing voice. 0:14:34.556 --> 0:14:37.676 I was not a natural singer, so I didn't have 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:39.516 a good pitch and I didn't have a lot of range, 0:14:39.556 --> 0:14:43.076 and I trained my voice really from nothing, because I 0:14:43.196 --> 0:14:46.436 just wanted so badly to share my songs with the world. 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:50.436 She's had quite the career. She's thirty eight now, but 0:14:51.116 --> 0:14:54.956 her first band got signed at seventeen. She skipped six 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:57.196 weeks of senior year to go on an arena tour 0:14:57.316 --> 0:15:01.796 with Fallout Boy. Music was her livelihood, her social circle, 0:15:01.876 --> 0:15:04.116 her expression, her entire life. 0:15:04.796 --> 0:15:08.836 And then when I was thirty, I joined the band 0:15:08.876 --> 0:15:13.236 Vam Pier Weekend, who was already hugely famous, and all 0:15:13.276 --> 0:15:15.796 of a sudden, I was like at the peak of 0:15:15.836 --> 0:15:19.956 my musical career, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden, playing 0:15:20.036 --> 0:15:22.916 right before the Cure, playing before Bob Dylan, like having 0:15:23.196 --> 0:15:26.636 all my musical bucket list dreams come true and working 0:15:26.676 --> 0:15:28.476 on a solo record that I hoped would be like 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:31.036 the biggest swing I had ever taken creatively. 0:15:31.196 --> 0:15:34.956 I listened to Greta's musical project Springtime Carnivore, and it 0:15:34.996 --> 0:15:39.996 became the soundtrack to writing this story. It racks Here's 0:15:40.196 --> 0:16:02.196 Face in the Moon from a record Midnight Room. And 0:16:02.236 --> 0:16:06.316 then in March of twenty twenty, Greta got COVID playing 0:16:06.316 --> 0:16:10.796 a festival in Florida at the covering from a terrible fever. 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:14.116 She was then a vocal lesson when she discovered she 0:16:14.236 --> 0:16:18.476 couldn't access the top half of her singing voice. Here's 0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:20.956 a clip of her trying to sing that same song 0:16:21.196 --> 0:16:22.036 I just played you. 0:16:23.156 --> 0:16:39.116 Co co to the dug Is anybody else? It just 0:16:39.156 --> 0:16:41.836 does not work if I'm trying about. 0:16:46.556 --> 0:16:49.596 It. Took months to figure out what was happening, but 0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:55.236 eventually Greta got diagnosed with spasmodic dysphonia, a neurological disorder 0:16:55.516 --> 0:16:59.076 that involves involuntary spasms of the vocal chords. 0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:03.036 So my singing voices, I knew it just was completely decimated. 0:17:04.436 --> 0:17:07.396 So not only could I not perform and have a livelihood. 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:10.436 But I also couldn't realize express myself the way I'd 0:17:10.476 --> 0:17:14.676 always known for years, just my kind of emotional expression 0:17:15.196 --> 0:17:18.516 and my love of writing and playing. And now I'm 0:17:18.596 --> 0:17:21.716 six years into this journey, you know, hundreds of speech 0:17:21.796 --> 0:17:27.076 therapy sessions, vocal injections, holistic therapies, and at this point, 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:31.196 I've recovered maybe about forty percent of my voice. So 0:17:31.276 --> 0:17:34.196 when I heard your story, I was immediately like, I 0:17:34.276 --> 0:17:35.356 need to talk to her. 0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:44.516 I'm having all the feelings like this happened to you 0:17:44.556 --> 0:17:47.036 in twenty twenty, this happened to me in twenty twenty. 0:17:47.436 --> 0:17:54.156 I'm like very emotional at this moment looking at your 0:17:54.236 --> 0:17:59.196 story from outside. It's like I can feel grief for 0:17:59.276 --> 0:18:00.916 what you went through in a way that I can't 0:18:00.956 --> 0:18:02.316 feel it for what I went through. 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:04.116 That's so interesting. 0:18:05.116 --> 0:18:08.196 Greta tells Caitlin that this is also her first time 0:18:08.476 --> 0:18:11.596 talking to someone who's been through the same thing, and 0:18:11.956 --> 0:18:13.276 Caylen tells Greta. 0:18:13.076 --> 0:18:15.996 Her situation getting to the point where I could call 0:18:16.076 --> 0:18:20.116 myself a writer was a big deal. How she also 0:18:20.316 --> 0:18:22.716 felt like she was summoning a peak with her writing, 0:18:23.116 --> 0:18:26.596 so it was really feeling like I was arriving into 0:18:26.636 --> 0:18:28.636 my authorial self. 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:31.676 How she also lost her ability to do the thing 0:18:31.796 --> 0:18:32.396 she loved. 0:18:32.596 --> 0:18:35.276 A friend of mine who's a brain scientist, said that 0:18:35.316 --> 0:18:36.676 it was similar to a. 0:18:36.716 --> 0:18:41.116 Stroke and how eventually, after years of rehab, she regained 0:18:41.156 --> 0:18:44.876 all her abilities, except her internal narrator never came back. 0:18:45.316 --> 0:18:49.836 It was almost like singing or almost like music, and 0:18:50.356 --> 0:18:51.956 it was just gone. 0:18:52.156 --> 0:18:52.676 Wow. 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:57.996 And writing really felt like that was my purpose in life. 0:18:58.556 --> 0:19:03.836 And without the voice, I feel like I lost my purpose. 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:16.556 I feel like I don't know why I'm I don't 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:22.316 know why I'm alive sometimes, or that's at its worst. 0:19:23.676 --> 0:19:27.956 Yeah, I mean, I just feel that heartbreaks so viscerally. 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:30.996 And the other thing that really caught me was when 0:19:30.996 --> 0:19:35.156 you were saying, not only were you having difficulty reading 0:19:35.516 --> 0:19:38.796 and writing, but you were having trouble walking. It feels 0:19:38.836 --> 0:19:44.236 like a huge, massive challenge and setback that happened in 0:19:44.276 --> 0:19:47.996 your life. I've had separate but alongside some of my 0:19:48.076 --> 0:19:50.516 vocal issues. Also, I was disabled for two years by 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:52.396 long COVID, to the point where I had to move 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:55.396 home with my parents. But I just so relate to 0:19:55.556 --> 0:20:00.676 the immediate loss of ability and how shocking it is, 0:20:01.076 --> 0:20:03.676 and just how kind of scary it is. 0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:09.516 After Caitlin realized she couldn't write, she threw herself, finding 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:13.556 a new calling, a new artistic medium to be obsessed with, 0:20:14.036 --> 0:20:14.796 to be her thing. 0:20:15.756 --> 0:20:20.676 When I was first going through this, I got really 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:29.796 invested in the inspiration porn story. The Okay, I can't read, 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:34.956 I can't write, so I'm gonna make a podcast. I'm 0:20:34.956 --> 0:20:39.436 going to teach myself how to make a podcast, and 0:20:39.476 --> 0:20:42.676 I'm going to do that. I thought that I could 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:48.036 just quickly pivot and be amazing through just sheer force 0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:56.396 of will, and that's not how it works. I did. 0:20:57.356 --> 0:21:02.836 I did learn to paint. One weird benefit of whatever 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:06.476 brain shit was going on was my experience of color 0:21:06.556 --> 0:21:11.436 got heightened. So I have been learning to paint. And 0:21:11.476 --> 0:21:15.116 again with that idea that I was gonna pivot and 0:21:15.196 --> 0:21:18.556 change my story and woohoo, look how amazing. I was 0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:20.876 going to become a painter now and that was going 0:21:20.956 --> 0:21:24.676 to be my thing. But I don't feel that sense 0:21:25.156 --> 0:21:29.876 of calling that I had before. 0:21:33.956 --> 0:21:36.556 Greta, did you encounter those kinds of stories? 0:21:37.516 --> 0:21:41.396 I did, and all of those stories pissed me off. Yeah. 0:21:41.476 --> 0:21:45.796 Right after my diagnosis, my closest friends and family sent 0:21:45.876 --> 0:21:49.716 me all of these kind of loss and renewal inspiration stories. 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:52.556 I mean, and you know they are beautiful stories that 0:21:52.596 --> 0:21:56.316 I can appreciate more now. At the time they all 0:21:56.436 --> 0:22:00.596 pissed me off. A couple examples would be like, you know, 0:22:00.716 --> 0:22:04.076 Julie Andrews lost her voice after a surgery, but she 0:22:04.156 --> 0:22:07.036 started writing children's books with her daughter, and that's how 0:22:07.036 --> 0:22:10.196 her voice will speak to a new generation. I was like, Okay, yeah, 0:22:10.236 --> 0:22:13.716 that's beautiful, but like, what was Julie Andrews doing the 0:22:13.796 --> 0:22:16.516 two weeks after she realized she couldn't sing? Like that 0:22:16.716 --> 0:22:20.556 was what I wanted, not this kind of tidy, tied 0:22:20.636 --> 0:22:23.236 up with a bow story because I was just I 0:22:23.276 --> 0:22:27.356 felt so just kind of ravaged and torn open. 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:30.036 Yeah. 0:22:30.396 --> 0:22:34.036 I think rushing too soon, you know, the inspiration porn element, 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:38.236 like the rushing too soon, it never works. A friend 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:40.676 of mine was saying, you can't write about the plane 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:43.756 crash while you're on the plane crash. There's an element 0:22:43.796 --> 0:22:46.436 of when you're in a process that's really painful and 0:22:46.476 --> 0:22:50.676 there's a dissolution that's happening, It's almost like the dissolution 0:22:50.876 --> 0:22:53.876 has to finish the entire process before the new thing 0:22:53.996 --> 0:22:58.596 can start to be born, and rushing it can kill 0:22:58.676 --> 0:23:00.596 that experience. 0:23:02.036 --> 0:23:06.036 Greta, what did that dissolution process look like for you? 0:23:06.956 --> 0:23:11.236 For me, the dissolution process looked like spending months just 0:23:12.116 --> 0:23:17.076 wandering around in the Southwest and unburdening myself of so 0:23:17.156 --> 0:23:19.956 many the things that I had. I mean, my physical 0:23:20.476 --> 0:23:24.716 possessions all had to be thrown out basically because the 0:23:24.756 --> 0:23:26.476 house I was living in I found out I had 0:23:26.516 --> 0:23:29.836 to move out suddenly it was full of mold. So 0:23:29.916 --> 0:23:32.196 it was like I was immediately unburdened of my physical 0:23:32.236 --> 0:23:35.116 possessions and my clothes, my books, my bed. 0:23:36.476 --> 0:23:36.716 You know. 0:23:36.756 --> 0:23:38.276 Then I kind of had to let go of my 0:23:38.876 --> 0:23:41.596 career and my professional life and admit that I had 0:23:41.596 --> 0:23:44.476 to focus on my body and focus on my health. 0:23:45.276 --> 0:23:49.316 And by leaving Los Angeles, I let go of a 0:23:49.316 --> 0:23:52.756 certain amount of my social experience. It really just felt 0:23:52.796 --> 0:23:55.996 like these layers of what I had and what I 0:23:56.036 --> 0:23:58.356 loved were just kind of being peeled away, one by 0:23:58.396 --> 0:24:01.916 one by one. I had an experience here in the 0:24:01.916 --> 0:24:04.916 Catskills a couple of years ago where I saw a 0:24:04.996 --> 0:24:07.676 deer had been killed on the road and it had 0:24:07.716 --> 0:24:09.596 been pushed to the side of the river, and it 0:24:09.676 --> 0:24:12.076 was a place where I walked almost every day, and 0:24:12.276 --> 0:24:14.476 over the course of four days, I saw this deer 0:24:14.836 --> 0:24:17.316 go from a full animal to being just a piece 0:24:17.316 --> 0:24:20.476 of a spine. And there was a way where it 0:24:20.516 --> 0:24:23.876 felt like my life got peeled down to just the bones. 0:24:24.596 --> 0:24:28.076 Just like here I am. I'm a body, and I'm consciousness. 0:24:28.116 --> 0:24:30.156 And the way that I witness and engage with the 0:24:30.156 --> 0:24:33.876 world around me, that's who I am now, Like it's 0:24:33.956 --> 0:24:36.676 not what I got paid to do. It's not even 0:24:36.716 --> 0:24:39.476 what I love doing. It's not who people think I am. 0:24:39.596 --> 0:24:42.876 It is my experience right now of being a witness 0:24:42.916 --> 0:24:45.196 to what is directly in front of me in this moment. 0:24:49.356 --> 0:24:54.356 Was there a moment when you realized that you had 0:24:54.356 --> 0:24:56.836 to kind of let go? 0:24:57.636 --> 0:25:02.516 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. My friend Christopher sent me this 0:25:02.636 --> 0:25:06.556 series of talks by Francis Weller, who's a grief psychologist, 0:25:07.036 --> 0:25:08.876 and when he first sent them to me again, I 0:25:08.916 --> 0:25:10.836 was kind of pissed off, Like I was like, I 0:25:10.916 --> 0:25:13.356 don't need these I don't need to grieve because my 0:25:13.436 --> 0:25:16.956 voice is just going to come back. My voice will heal, 0:25:16.996 --> 0:25:19.676 and why would I waste my time grieving if I'm 0:25:19.676 --> 0:25:23.076 gonna like have a miraculous healing or whatever. But then 0:25:23.116 --> 0:25:25.916 I had enough ups and downs and I was kind 0:25:25.916 --> 0:25:28.556 of recognizing, I don't think it's coming back the way 0:25:28.596 --> 0:25:30.636 that it was. No matter what I do, no matter 0:25:30.676 --> 0:25:34.196 how much of this like mind over matter, miraculous healing 0:25:34.436 --> 0:25:37.076 energy I'm trying to work with, my voice was just 0:25:37.156 --> 0:25:41.236 not coming back. And I finally listened to these tapes 0:25:41.276 --> 0:25:45.996 while I was walking in Escalante one day, and firstly, 0:25:46.156 --> 0:25:49.716 when Francis Weller started talking, I could hear he had 0:25:49.756 --> 0:25:51.676 an issue with his voice. He said, oh, he had 0:25:51.716 --> 0:25:54.116 a poll up on his vocal cords, and I immediately 0:25:54.116 --> 0:25:57.236 was like, okay, I like this person. And he was 0:25:57.316 --> 0:26:02.836 talking about the kind of sacred connection between grief and aliveness, 0:26:03.036 --> 0:26:05.556 and he says that grief and aliveness are like sisters. 0:26:06.676 --> 0:26:11.596 And I had always been so scared of grief because 0:26:12.156 --> 0:26:14.916 my best friend committed suicide when I was in high school. 0:26:15.516 --> 0:26:18.276 My great grandmother had been, you know, put into an 0:26:18.356 --> 0:26:23.316 insane asylum essentially for grief. My relationship with grief is 0:26:23.356 --> 0:26:26.276 like if you touch it, it will pull you under 0:26:26.276 --> 0:26:29.716 it and you will never come up. And so I was 0:26:29.756 --> 0:26:34.076 always very resistant to actually grieving what I had lost, 0:26:35.636 --> 0:26:38.436 But on the flip side of that, I kept diminishing 0:26:38.596 --> 0:26:41.716 my own pain, which you can't process your own pain 0:26:41.756 --> 0:26:44.956 if you're diminishing it. When I would say to myself, well, 0:26:45.036 --> 0:26:47.996 I'm so lucky I got to be a musician. What 0:26:48.076 --> 0:26:52.476 a gift that I got to do that? Yeah, or like, well, 0:26:52.516 --> 0:26:54.996 I'm at least I'm not living in a war torn 0:26:55.116 --> 0:26:57.276 place right now. You know, I have my safety and 0:26:57.316 --> 0:27:00.436 that's all, you know. I would do these things, which, yeah, 0:27:00.556 --> 0:27:03.596 sometimes it's good to see the silver lining, but at 0:27:03.636 --> 0:27:07.916 the same time, I had this very real grief that 0:27:08.076 --> 0:27:10.116 was like a stone in my throat and I was 0:27:10.156 --> 0:27:12.876 not swallowing it and I was not addressing it, and like, 0:27:13.276 --> 0:27:18.876 I couldn't process it. So once I started just consciously grieving, 0:27:19.516 --> 0:27:22.636 I was thinking things in my head like I am 0:27:22.716 --> 0:27:25.276 grieving the fact that I have not been able to 0:27:25.316 --> 0:27:28.356 sing for nine months, or I am grieving the fact 0:27:28.436 --> 0:27:30.956 that I may never play a show again, or I 0:27:30.996 --> 0:27:34.436 am grieving the fact that I worked my whole life 0:27:34.756 --> 0:27:36.956 to train and build my voice and it was gone 0:27:37.156 --> 0:27:38.196 basically overnight. 0:27:39.476 --> 0:27:44.796 What was that thing you said again that grief is, Oh, 0:27:44.836 --> 0:27:47.116 it's like brings you into contact with being alive. 0:27:47.316 --> 0:27:51.156 There's a sacred link between grief and aliveness. 0:27:51.516 --> 0:27:52.796 Oh God, that's great. 0:27:53.236 --> 0:27:58.516 Oh and I really when I started working with the 0:27:58.516 --> 0:28:02.196 things that he was saying, they really changed me. One 0:28:02.196 --> 0:28:05.276 thing he said, he quotes James Hillman, who's the father 0:28:05.316 --> 0:28:09.356 of archetypal psychology, and the quote is something like, so 0:28:09.556 --> 0:28:13.356