Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener Discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: Edward Lawrence Chafflin was a prospector and US Army scout
Speaker 1: stationed in Arizona in the eighteen seventies. Back then, many
Speaker 1: folks were seeking the promise of silver ore in the area,
Speaker 1: but ed Sheefflin was described as much more determined and
Speaker 1: much more rugged than the rest. In eighteen seventy six,
Speaker 1: David P. Lansing of Phoenix, Arizona described Chefflin as about
Speaker 1: the strangest specimen of human flesh I ever saw. He
Speaker 1: was six ft two inches tall and had black hair
Speaker 1: that hung several inches below his shoulders, and a beard
Speaker 1: that had not been trimmed or combed for so long
Speaker 1: a time that it was a mass of unkempt knots
Speaker 1: and mats. He wore clothing piece and patched from deer skins,
Speaker 1: corduroy and flannel, and his hat was originally a slouch
Speaker 1: hat that had been pieced with rabbit skin until very
Speaker 1: little of the original felt remained. But something tells me
Speaker 1: this look didn't stick with Ed for very long. Despite
Speaker 1: the dangers. Ed would often go out on expeditions in
Speaker 1: search for or His home base was camp with Chaka.
Speaker 1: Soldiers would often ask him about his efforts. Ed consistently
Speaker 1: responded with hope and determinations, but apparently surrounded by a
Speaker 1: bunch of pessimists. Those soldiers would tell him you'll find something,
Speaker 1: You'll find your tombstone, as so many others have before.
Speaker 1: Well fatefully, on August one, eight seventy seven, Chefflin did
Speaker 1: find his tombstone, but probably not like anyone expected. I'm
Speaker 1: Amy Bruney and this is haunted road. The San Pedro
Speaker 1: Valley had been the destination for intrepid miners and those
Speaker 1: seeking work prior to the eighteen seventies, but our Ed
Speaker 1: Chefflin found something that would be a game changer. On
Speaker 1: August first, eighteen seventy seven, Ed struck silver and appropriately
Speaker 1: dubbed his new mine tombstone. He found yet another mine
Speaker 1: nearby that he christened the graveyard. Ed's name for his
Speaker 1: silver mine. Carried Over is the name for the settlement
Speaker 1: founded near the site, fueled by a silver rush that
Speaker 1: attracted fortune hunters to the new town. When miners came
Speaker 1: to town, they didn't just bring their supplies and hopes.
Speaker 1: They ushered in a need for civil structures, food, education
Speaker 1: for growing families, and entertainment. The town grew significantly into
Speaker 1: the mid eighteen eighties as the local mines produced a
Speaker 1: staggering forty to eighty five million dollars in silver. The
Speaker 1: largest productive silver mine district in Arizona, its population grew
Speaker 1: from one hundred to around fourteen thousand in less than
Speaker 1: seven years. Tombstone's residence had access to a school, a
Speaker 1: handful of church ches, a bowling alley, ice cream shop,
Speaker 1: and most notably, one hundred ten saloons, fourteen gambling halls,
Speaker 1: and numerous dance halls and brothels. Over seven thousand folks
Speaker 1: answered the promising call of silver by the eighteen eighties,
Speaker 1: and the famous art brothers Wyatt, Virgil and Morgan were
Speaker 1: among them. Shortly after their friend Doc Holiday, a former
Speaker 1: dentist from Georgia, turned to gambler and gunfighter followed suit.
Speaker 1: Virgil took on the roll of Tombstones Marshal in eighteen eighty.
Speaker 1: But the rb faction wasn't solely committed to upholding the law.
Speaker 1: They had income that was unrelated with steaks and mines
Speaker 1: and saloons, and occasional work as bartenders and private security.
Speaker 1: There was a class division among Tombstone residents and that
Speaker 1: culminated in numerous skirmishes and conflicts. But the most notable
Speaker 1: occurred between the art Brothers and the Cowboys, a loosely
Speaker 1: organized band about laws who were known cattle steelers. Tombstone
Speaker 1: sits about thirty miles away from the Mexican border, and
Speaker 1: at the time, the government of Mexico maintained a high
Speaker 1: tax on imported tobacco, cattle, and alcohol. Cowboys gathered in
Speaker 1: small groups in this liminal space and seemingly made a
Speaker 1: lot of money from smuggling. They also brought a love
Speaker 1: of drink and shooting to Tombstone, but they were allowed
Speaker 1: to stay because they also brought a lot of money
Speaker 1: to saloons, theaters, and of course, brothels. There were various
Speaker 1: altercations that exacerbated the tense relationship of these two groups,
Speaker 1: but the final straw was added in October when an
Speaker 1: ordinance was passed in Tombstone prohibiting the carrying of weapons
Speaker 1: in town. This riled the cowboys, who were used to
Speaker 1: carrying their weapons wherever they pleased. On October, Doc Holiday
Speaker 1: and Ike Clanton of the Cowboys were at the Alhambra
Speaker 1: Saloon when they got into a fight. I'm almost positive
Speaker 1: this started with Doc Holiday declaring I'm your huckleberry, but
Speaker 1: this could be wishful thanking on my part. Cooler heads
Speaker 1: temporarily prevailed. Holiday eventually headed home to his room in
Speaker 1: a boarding house, but Clanton kept drinking and getting more
Speaker 1: worked up. Virgil was still the marshal, which meant enforcement
Speaker 1: of this unwelcome edict fell to him. But if there
Speaker 1: was beef against Virgil, the whole RB Holiday group felt
Speaker 1: the effects. Threats of this kind, though were commonplace, the
Speaker 1: follow through wasn't, so no one, including Virgil Herb took
Speaker 1: the threat from Clanton very seriously. The next day, around
Speaker 1: nine in the morning, a policeman roused Virgil after just
Speaker 1: a few hours of slumber to tell him that Ike
Speaker 1: Clanton was staggering around town, now armed and still drunk,
Speaker 1: threatening to kill all the Art brothers and their friend
Speaker 1: Dog Holiday on site. Initially unfazed, Virgil did get around
Speaker 1: to disarming the very drunk Clanton before escorting him to
Speaker 1: see a judge. After receiving a fine and being let go. Ike, infuriated,
Speaker 1: sought out a group of five cowboys, including his brother Billy,
Speaker 1: the mclory's, and went with them to Fremont Street. The
Speaker 1: bolstered threats from the cowboys resulted in Virgil's quick deputizing
Speaker 1: of his brothers and Doc. The sheriff tried to convince
Speaker 1: the Herbs to back off, but they pressed on, finding
Speaker 1: the Clantons and the mclory's in a lot near the
Speaker 1: old Kindersley Corral. Thirty shots and thirty seconds later, Tom
Speaker 1: and Frank McClory and Billie Clanton were dead in the dust.
Speaker 1: Ike Clanton and Billy Claiborne had made a successful getaway
Speaker 1: when the shooting began. The lawman all survived, but Whyatt
Speaker 1: was the only one to remain unscathed. It wasn't clear
Speaker 1: what side had fired the first shot, and the Herb
Speaker 1: Holiday group was arrested and held in jail for about
Speaker 1: a month. The hearing brought the result that the cowboys
Speaker 1: were not unarmed, therefore closing out the case against the
Speaker 1: Herbs and Holiday, but it was not the end of
Speaker 1: the conflict. On December one, just two months after the shootout,
Speaker 1: Virgil Earp was ambushed and maimed in a murder attempt
Speaker 1: by the cowboys. It's believed that an apparition of Virgil
Speaker 1: appears in this spot, but it never makes it across
Speaker 1: the street. Morgan RB was the next target. In March
Speaker 1: of eighteen eighty two, he was shot and killed by
Speaker 1: a cowboy who aimed through a glass door of the
Speaker 1: saloon Morgan was sitting in. The saloon was then called
Speaker 1: Campbell and Hatch's Saloon, but is currently the Red Buffalo
Speaker 1: Trading Company. It seems that Morgan is still frequenting the
Speaker 1: place even in death, and has been said to even
Speaker 1: help stock shelves. For these crimes, cowboys covered their own
Speaker 1: with alibis and no charges were filed. Wyatt tried to
Speaker 1: form a band to get justice, but didn't have much luck.
Speaker 1: Wyatt left Arizona in eighteen eighty two without exacting his revenge.
Speaker 1: After his death, the first biography of Wyatt Earp was
Speaker 1: published in nineteen thirty one. It gave us a dramatic
Speaker 1: telling of the shootout at the Okay Corral and other
Speaker 1: events in RB's life that still color our understanding of
Speaker 1: events in Tombstone. Even though the shootout occurred about six
Speaker 1: buildings to the west of the Okay Corral. It's firmly
Speaker 1: held that the latter is haunted by the spirits of
Speaker 1: those slain cowboys. Several witnesses have reported seeing the fading
Speaker 1: apparition of men dressed in cowboy attire, often appearing with
Speaker 1: guns drawn, perhaps locked into a perpetual battle with the RBS.
Speaker 1: Others have claimed to have felt numerous cold spots in
Speaker 1: various areas of the Corral. One of the other most
Speaker 1: haunted and storied spots in town is the Bird Cage Theater.
Speaker 1: As someone who has visited here a few times, this
Speaker 1: place has changed very little sincece heyday. It's like walking
Speaker 1: into a time capsule. There's even still bullet holes in
Speaker 1: the ceiling from especially rowdy nights. Established in the vein
Speaker 1: of Chefflin Hall, a fine operatic venue, William and Lottie
Speaker 1: Hutchinson hoped that their theater would draw respectable folks in Tombstone,
Speaker 1: but money talks and the local population of lusty young
Speaker 1: miners preferred body or types of entertainment, so the Hutchinson's
Speaker 1: delivered in eighty two, just one year in the New
Speaker 1: York Times referred to the bird Cage as the roughest, bodiest,
Speaker 1: and most wicked night spot between Basin Street and the
Speaker 1: Barbary Coast. Bird Cage certainly seems to refer to the
Speaker 1: boxes attached to the ceiling where the women engaged in
Speaker 1: sex work would host their companion and make good on
Speaker 1: the exchange. But the women didn't do just that. They
Speaker 1: also tended the bar and performed in a variety of shows.
Speaker 1: Stage shows at the bird Cage started at nine pm
Speaker 1: and continued until one am or so the next morning.
Speaker 1: Waiter girls in short dresses with low cut necklines peddled
Speaker 1: as many drinks as they could. Beer was just fifty
Speaker 1: cents on the main floor and a dollar in the
Speaker 1: curtain boxes. Skits, music acts, and comedy shows were all
Speaker 1: featured and typically accentuated by bright clothing and short skirts.
Speaker 1: Jokes were definitely of the naughty kind. In general, the
Speaker 1: bird Cage was a rowdy place. It was the scene
Speaker 1: of at least sixteen gun and knife fights over the years.
Speaker 1: By the time the doors were shut permanently, there were
Speaker 1: one hundred forty of those bullet holes in the walls
Speaker 1: and ceilings that I told you about in their short
Speaker 1: and bright outfits, women performed a popular act called the
Speaker 1: Human Fly. Performers walked upside down on the ceiling over
Speaker 1: the stage was specially outfitted shoes that had clamps on
Speaker 1: them that fitted into holes board into the ceiling. At
Speaker 1: least one of those performers fell to her death when
Speaker 1: a clamp slipped, but there's not many details on that.
Speaker 1: A very popular story connected to the bird Cage seems
Speaker 1: dubious but is quite striking. The top lady at the
Speaker 1: bird Cage was known as Margharita, and her supposed main
Speaker 1: rival was Dirtie the gold Dollar from Crystal Palace, another brothel.
Speaker 1: Gertie had quite a committed customer in Billy mill Green.
Speaker 1: Some even alleged that mill Green was Gertie's liven lover. Billy,
Speaker 1: apparently with a different conception of loyalties, found himself in
Speaker 1: the birdcage with the lovely Margharita in his lap. Gertie,
Speaker 1: the gutsy gritty woman, also found herself in the bird cage, and,
Speaker 1: as a witness of betrayal, grabbing a handful of Margharita's hair,
Speaker 1: gold Dollar stabbed her with a double edged stiletto that
Speaker 1: was stashed in her garter she hacked at Margharita's heart.
Speaker 1: Margherita died before anyone could offer aid. Gertie and Billy left,
Speaker 1: and she apparently discarded the weapon behind the theater. When
Speaker 1: she was found, charges weren't filed because there was no
Speaker 1: weapon on which to base them. Margherita's death was unresolved,
Speaker 1: and her spirit supposedly haunts the bird Cage still. Then,
Speaker 1: supposedly in nWo, when they excavated an old privy behind
Speaker 1: the bird cage, the stiletto used by gold Dollar was found.
Speaker 1: It seems rather convenient that the blade was found on
Speaker 1: the centennial of the slaying, if it happened at all,
Speaker 1: but it's a great story. Carmeally to Jimenez's death by
Speaker 1: suicide is another potentially apocryphal tale that's consistently repeated. Carmeally
Speaker 1: to Jimenez and her partner, Frederick Baker were both performers
Speaker 1: at the bird Cage. If true, I'd like to note
Speaker 1: that Carmelita is also described as a well known singer.
Speaker 1: They lived together for four or five months before her
Speaker 1: death in the middle of August eighteen eighty eight. Frederick
Speaker 1: had noticed of late that she was not in her
Speaker 1: right spirits, rather downhearted and melancholy. As the day wound
Speaker 1: down at home after performing at the bird Cage, Carmelita
Speaker 1: began to cry. When asked if she was upset about him,
Speaker 1: she assured him she wasn't. The next day, after rehearsals
Speaker 1: at the bird Cage, Frederick saw her vomit alongside the washstand.
Speaker 1: When asked, Carmelita said she intentionally took medicine to make
Speaker 1: her sick, but wouldn't tell Frederick what it was. He
Speaker 1: assumed that she had taken an emetic, something that seems
Speaker 1: to have been consumed widely, if abusively, in the nineteenth century,
Speaker 1: or was at least accessible to those who wanted or
Speaker 1: needed to purse their systems of some real or perceived affliction. Regardless,
Speaker 1: he assumed incorrectly she had actually taken two teaspoons of
Speaker 1: rough on rats, an arsenic pason. This was only discovered
Speaker 1: after a doctor was rushed to Carmelita, but the actual
Speaker 1: emetic he applied was too late to save her. During
Speaker 1: its heyday, the building was sold at least twice, but
Speaker 1: its final curtain closed in eighteen ninety two as Tombstone's
Speaker 1: water problem pushed out the bulk of miners who would
Speaker 1: work elsewhere, which we'll talk about later. Because of fires
Speaker 1: through Tombstone as well as the wear and tear experience
Speaker 1: in a mining boomtown, most structures are recreations in modern builds,
Speaker 1: but the bird Cage Theater wasn't constructed with wood. It's
Speaker 1: made of concrete, and today it's the only building on
Speaker 1: Allan Street that is original. When it closed its doors,
Speaker 1: everything inside was left in place. The doors weren't opened
Speaker 1: again until nineteen thirty four, and when they were, Tombstone
Speaker 1: found itself with a perfect window into its past. As
Speaker 1: we move on to the Boothill Graveyard, so named because
Speaker 1: most of the men there supposedly died with their boots on,
Speaker 1: let's also move on to the rapid demise of Tombstone
Speaker 1: and its eventual status as a ghost town. Water was
Speaker 1: threatening Tombstone as early as eighteen eighty, but each year
Speaker 1: the mine seemed to strike more and more of it.
Speaker 1: The flow wasn't at first large enough to stop work,
Speaker 1: but experienced miners thought the water flow would increase, and
Speaker 1: it did. All sources I've read indicate that pumping water
Speaker 1: from mine shafts worked until it just didn't. A double
Speaker 1: whammy seems to have ended things quite suddenly, as a
Speaker 1: fire destroyed the pumping system on May eighteen eighty six,
Speaker 1: and then the price of silver dropped, dashing hopes of
Speaker 1: funding a restoration. Like the Boom Town, the Boothill Cemetery
Speaker 1: had a quick rise and a short fall. Originally started
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy eight, it was referred to as the
Speaker 1: City Cemetery until an actual city cemetery was built in
Speaker 1: the town. Then it earned the named the Old Cemetery,
Speaker 1: which it kept until nineteen nine. That's when we get
Speaker 1: the name booth Hill Graveyard. By the nineteen twenties, it
Speaker 1: had fallen into disrepair, and interested residents work diligently to
Speaker 1: track down information regarding those who were buried there. Those
Speaker 1: who were buried here usually had their places marked by wood,
Speaker 1: which doesn't hold up well, especially in Arizona's climate. Most
Speaker 1: of what visitors see there now are recreations of the
Speaker 1: originals for the benefit of tourists, so the veracity of
Speaker 1: some claims seem dubious but certainly entertaining, and some aren't
Speaker 1: seemingly dubious but are in fact total fabrications intended to
Speaker 1: spur tourism. If names come up, find a grave seems
Speaker 1: to have a robust database of interments. There are about
Speaker 1: two hundred fifty or so graves in this cemetery, and
Speaker 1: many of them were outlaws. Brothers Tom and Frank McClory
Speaker 1: and Billy Clanton, killed by the Herbs and Doc Holiday
Speaker 1: in the shootout, are buried here. It's claimed that Billy's
Speaker 1: spirit is one of the most active and apparently rises
Speaker 1: from his grave each night. Many claimed that Billy haunts
Speaker 1: both the graveyard and Allen Street, where he died in
Speaker 1: the shootout. There are a few places that would be
Speaker 1: so predictably haunted as Tombstone. But how many of these
Speaker 1: ghost stories are just that stories? And what other secrets
Speaker 1: does this old mining town hold up. Next, we'll talk
Speaker 1: with Tombstone local and renowned paranormal investigator Dwight Hole, who
Speaker 1: will fill us in on some of the more famous
Speaker 1: Hanson Town plus some mothers you may never have even
Speaker 1: heard of. Okay, so I am now joined by Dwight Hole,
Speaker 1: who is a Dwight What is your position in Tombstone? Officially?
Speaker 1: Everybody tells me you're like the resident paranormal expert. Oh,
Speaker 1: I hate that word expert, but yeah, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: the paranormal guy. And my wife and I have investigating
Speaker 1: Tombstone for what I have for over twenty years, Ronda
Speaker 1: for about last ten, So we're kind of the go
Speaker 1: to folks for the paranormal and Toomstone. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that makes sense. I know people always shy away from
Speaker 1: the word expert when it comes to the paranormal, which
Speaker 1: I think is fair because people always say, how can
Speaker 1: you prove the existence of something? Or how can you
Speaker 1: call yourself an expert in something that we can barely
Speaker 1: prove the existence of. But I think it's fair to
Speaker 1: say that if you have a lot of knowledge of
Speaker 1: the history of the paranormal, or if you are someone
Speaker 1: who knows a lot about the history of a location,
Speaker 1: as you seem to do, I think expert is fair.
Speaker 1: I think you're allowed to call yourself something like that.
Speaker 1: I'll take it. I'll take it. So Tombstone is such
Speaker 1: an interesting town. I think I met you there years
Speaker 1: and years ago. I have not been back since then.
Speaker 1: What year was that, uh, two thousand eight, I believe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's been a minute, but it seems like not
Speaker 1: that long ago to me. It was just such an
Speaker 1: interesting town with such an interesting history. And I think
Speaker 1: what I love about it is that I expect it's
Speaker 1: probably not nearly as lawless as it was, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's changed much Like you really do
Speaker 1: feel like you're taking a little step back in time.
Speaker 1: And do you think that that might have something to
Speaker 1: do with why spirits tend to remain there? Oh? Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: Tombstone is still Tombstone, whether it's today or a hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty years ago. Um, you know, the players have changed,
Speaker 1: but it's still the same thing. It's small town and
Speaker 1: instead of silver, you know, they're mining tourists. It's still
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing. The shops are still there
Speaker 1: are at least the buildings are still there, you know,
Speaker 1: all the streets are still there. So yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: bit of familiarity, I think, and a bit of the
Speaker 1: Tombstone attitude that I guess still prevails today. So I
Speaker 1: think that's what helps keep some of the spirits there,
Speaker 1: is they liked kind of that rock is body atmosphere,
Speaker 1: and it still has it there today. Yeah. Absolutely, I
Speaker 1: remember that very much and you read through you know,
Speaker 1: kind of what happened there over the years, and now
Speaker 1: it seemed like there was at the very least a
Speaker 1: bigger population back then. Definitely a lot less buildings are
Speaker 1: still standing. But how is the population changed over the
Speaker 1: years from back in the heyday until now? I mean
Speaker 1: back in the heyday we had like, gosh, almost twenty
Speaker 1: thousand people in Tombstone, which if you come to Tombstone
Speaker 1: you probably look around and say where they put them all?
Speaker 1: Not that big of a place. But and you're right,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of buildings that aren't there anymore that
Speaker 1: were occupied by some of that twenty Now we have
Speaker 1: a population about So yeah, that's a dramatic decrease in
Speaker 1: living population. But are we sure have the ghost population
Speaker 1: that still makes up for it? I think, I imagine. So,
Speaker 1: what do you say is probably the most haunted spot
Speaker 1: in the town? What is your favorite spirited place to visit? Wow? Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know, my favorite place I have to say probably
Speaker 1: the bird Cage, just because it's probably the most untouched
Speaker 1: building from the back of the day. But really, and honestly,
Speaker 1: you know, you've been to enough ghost town and Old
Speaker 1: West towns you can't throw a rock without hitting a
Speaker 1: haunted place in Tombstone. I mean it's just saturated with haunting.
Speaker 1: So it's pretty much. You know, people come to town,
Speaker 1: they say, well, what's the haunted place? Where are we
Speaker 1: going to go to find ghosts? Uh? Pretty much anywhere
Speaker 1: go get ice cream? You know, that's true. It's anywhere
Speaker 1: there in Tombstone. But you know, my favorite place because
Speaker 1: of the authenticity and originality probably the bird Cage. Not
Speaker 1: much has changed there. I remember going in there. I
Speaker 1: feel like it was empty for a little while. It
Speaker 1: was almost like a time capsule before it was reopened.
Speaker 1: But can you still see bullet holes in the walls
Speaker 1: there or anything? Oh yeah, all the bullet holes are
Speaker 1: still in the walls and ceiling, the floor. All the
Speaker 1: original curtains and tapestries are still up. A lot of
Speaker 1: the old original paintings are still there, the stage, the
Speaker 1: original pianos. So it's it really is like walking into
Speaker 1: a time capsule, or you know, you go back in
Speaker 1: time as then you go through the doors. It's an
Speaker 1: amazing place. So what would you say is probably the
Speaker 1: most frequent occurrence there as far as paranormal activity, The
Speaker 1: most frequent I think is being touched by It's usually
Speaker 1: a female that goes around and kind of touches the
Speaker 1: men when they come in there, and that seems to
Speaker 1: be the most reported. I've had. It happened a few times.
Speaker 1: In fact, I've got a picture of me inside the
Speaker 1: bird cage and you can see a mirror on one
Speaker 1: of the pianos, and in the mirror you can see me,
Speaker 1: and you can you know, see a woman's head with
Speaker 1: long black hair on my shoulder, but you can't see
Speaker 1: it in the picture of me because it shows me
Speaker 1: and then me in the mirror. So it's very cool picture.
Speaker 1: But that's probably the most frequent thing, is people being touched. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I could see that, And then I remember in the
Speaker 1: Ghost Hunters episode that was there, which unfortunately that was
Speaker 1: right before I started with Ghost Hunters and so I
Speaker 1: didn't get I got to investigate later, obviously, But they
Speaker 1: had a really interesting experience where they had put like
Speaker 1: a cord up or something and the cord literally just
Speaker 1: like lifted up and dropped off of they had used
Speaker 1: it to wire a camera or something, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: like it slipped, like it literally like lifted up and
Speaker 1: fell so is there a lot of movement in there?
Speaker 1: Do things get moved around a lot? Yeah, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of movement. Um, you put stuff someplace and then
Speaker 1: you know, you go back for it and it's moved.
Speaker 1: Or downstairs in the poker room, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff that gets moved. You could see it move or
Speaker 1: you hear it move. Yeah. And in that Ghost Hunters episode,
Speaker 1: it was cord from one of the cameras that went
Speaker 1: over one of the alarm bells that brought display there
Speaker 1: and it just lifted right up off the bell and
Speaker 1: just fell back down. In fact, when you and I
Speaker 1: were there with Lloyd Arbach and Jeff Blanger, that's right,
Speaker 1: that's right. Jeff kept talking about being touched on the
Speaker 1: back of the neck where we were all there. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's funny. I'll have to remind him of that. He's
Speaker 1: obviously very into the paranormal. For those who don't know,
Speaker 1: Jeff Blanger is a really fabulous paranormal author. He's got
Speaker 1: a number of books out there. He's a great friend
Speaker 1: of mine. But he's very hard on his paranormal experiences,
Speaker 1: and so I had forgotten about that. So I'll have
Speaker 1: to remind him you know, he's had just a few,
Speaker 1: so that's a good one. So Bird Cage Theater is
Speaker 1: obviously high on the list. Now, the other spot that
Speaker 1: a lot of people talk about, which I was surprised
Speaker 1: when I saw it in person because it was a
Speaker 1: lot smaller than I imagined it would be, was the
Speaker 1: Okay Corral. So does anything happen near the Okay Corral?
Speaker 1: It does. It is not so much actually inside, although
Speaker 1: there are stories, but right outside because it's kind of
Speaker 1: walled off now for obvious reasons. But on the other
Speaker 1: side of the wall, next to the main thoroughfare that
Speaker 1: goes through there A lot more stuff happens there because
Speaker 1: that's where the gunfight actually took place, was almost right
Speaker 1: on the street. And we've investigated out there, you know,
Speaker 1: several times, and it's difficult because you always, I don't
Speaker 1: care what time of day it is or night, you
Speaker 1: always have cars going by, so it's difficult for noise contamination.
Speaker 1: But we have gotten some just amazing e vps right
Speaker 1: outside the Okay Corral, one of them being when we
Speaker 1: were out there, we were saying, okay, who shot first?
Speaker 1: We want to know who shot first. The McClary's or
Speaker 1: the and we got a class A e v P
Speaker 1: saying leave these boys alone. That was amazing to me.
Speaker 1: And honestly, we never asked that question again. We've back
Speaker 1: a couple of times, but I thought, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm going to respect what the spirits say and we're
Speaker 1: just not going to go there again. That's something that
Speaker 1: we kind of strive for in our investigations. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes you kind of have to think outside the box
Speaker 1: when you're investigating some of these more well known haunts,
Speaker 1: because it's got to be strange if you're some sort
Speaker 1: of spirit or entity to just kind of, day in
Speaker 1: and day out have people talking about the moment of
Speaker 1: your death when you had an entire life before that.
Speaker 1: And so that's why I always encourage people to kind
Speaker 1: of think prior to that moment of death and see
Speaker 1: what can you draw upon in their life that they
Speaker 1: might actually want to talk about or might trigger them
Speaker 1: to speak out. And so that might be kind of
Speaker 1: a perfect example of like, okay, there over this right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and they get tired of being asked the same thing
Speaker 1: day in and day out. Like you said, it's amazing
Speaker 1: while doing investigations and being so involved in the history.
Speaker 1: You know, my wife I have kind of switched our
Speaker 1: views pretty quickly on who the real bad guys were,
Speaker 1: who the real good guys were. You know, we like
Speaker 1: the Clantons and mcclowdy's just from what we have experienced,
Speaker 1: have talked to them. We've actually been out to the
Speaker 1: Clanton ranch where they live just outside of Stone, which
Speaker 1: is an amazing place. Is that open to the public
Speaker 1: or is that a place that you kind of have
Speaker 1: to go visit it is? Yeah, you have to know
Speaker 1: where it is because it's literally out in the middle
Speaker 1: of the desert. It's an amazing, amazing place and it
Speaker 1: hooks into of course Tombstone and its history. So we
Speaker 1: love going out there. Now, tell me about the Booth
Speaker 1: Hill Graveyard. I do remember visiting that briefly. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: boot Hill Graveyard. It is a neat place to go.
Speaker 1: We've had a few experiences out there, but mostly with
Speaker 1: and and it sounds funny, but mostly with spirit animals,
Speaker 1: not so much the spirit people. We've gone out there,
Speaker 1: we've done t VP sessions and we've come back listen
Speaker 1: to them, and we've had dogs bark right next to
Speaker 1: us that we didn't hear. Of course, when we were there.
Speaker 1: We've heard footsteps, you know, dog or something running through there,
Speaker 1: and we have gotten a couple of e vps. But
Speaker 1: it's a great place now. It used to be a
Speaker 1: lot bigger than what the tourists see now. In fact,
Speaker 1: there's a circle can just on the other side of
Speaker 1: the street, kind of down the same side, and that
Speaker 1: used to be part of Boot Hill. So there's a
Speaker 1: circle k built on top of part of the cemetery.
Speaker 1: And every time they dig to put in a new
Speaker 1: gas pump or a new tank, they'd always find some bones.
Speaker 1: They'd have to stop. They'd have to call in the
Speaker 1: University of Arizona archaeological team, they'd have to do a
Speaker 1: dig there. And I believe it or not, that circle
Speaker 1: k next to Boot Hill is the most haunted circle
Speaker 1: k I have ever investigated in my life. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: I don't think, you know, I need to cross that
Speaker 1: one off my list. I don't think I've ever investigated
Speaker 1: a circle k, but this might be the perfect opportunity.
Speaker 1: It might be. Yeah, it is crazy haunted it there
Speaker 1: to get called in there like it was a milk file,
Speaker 1: you know, because there would be phenomenon going on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they used to call me in it O Dark thirty saying, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, we got all kinds of stuff. You come
Speaker 1: in here and talk to these guys or I'm like,
Speaker 1: what am I supposed to do? But wow, it was
Speaker 1: great and you know, I love it, and it's probably
Speaker 1: the the most haunted quick March I've been to. That
Speaker 1: is wild and it's just so funny that, you know,
Speaker 1: people just think it's okay to just kind of keeping
Speaker 1: when you build so close to a historical old cemetery,
Speaker 1: like Odds are especially out there that you know, the
Speaker 1: gravestones and stuff get so weathered and they kind of
Speaker 1: just melt away over time. You never know what you're
Speaker 1: gonna get if you build that close to something like that.
Speaker 1: Why do you think there's animal spirits out there as
Speaker 1: opposed to people? You know, that's a really good question.
Speaker 1: And again I think, you know, it could be We've
Speaker 1: tried to theorize on this over and over again. Could
Speaker 1: be dead dogs from whoever's buried there that they're still
Speaker 1: sticking close to their master. Because interestingly, whenever we go
Speaker 1: to the Clantons and mccloudy's graves there, that's where we
Speaker 1: always get the dogs Barking, which is very interesting. And
Speaker 1: of course past Boothhill. Not too far from Booth Hill
Speaker 1: there was a big tent city from all the miners
Speaker 1: and stuff like that that lived there. So you know,
Speaker 1: who knows all the animals are there, but they seem
Speaker 1: to gravitate there. So what do you think is like
Speaker 1: maybe a little known piece of history about Tombstone. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like very well known kind of
Speaker 1: moments in time. There are there any like tragedies or
Speaker 1: debts there that people don't really talk about much that
Speaker 1: you think have kind of been overlooked historically. Um, you
Speaker 1: know there are And I'll give you one good example,
Speaker 1: because you don't really hear a lot about the Chinese
Speaker 1: influence in Tombstone that there is a certain section of
Speaker 1: town that was called Hoptown or China Town that was
Speaker 1: run by China Mary. We do an event every year.
Speaker 1: In fact, we're going to have it again next week,
Speaker 1: a big event. We did an event a few years
Speaker 1: ago and we had Brian Kanno as one of our guests,
Speaker 1: and we were in a building that was in Hoptown,
Speaker 1: the old Hoptown, and we got just an amazing experience
Speaker 1: with e VPS and some pendulum work that we were
Speaker 1: doing about a brother who killed his brother and couldn't
Speaker 1: cross over and he was feeling guilty and the brother
Speaker 1: that he killed came back to try to get him.
Speaker 1: And we've got all this on tape. Fact we had
Speaker 1: a film crew from New York that was videoing all
Speaker 1: this and we have some extremely emotional things about the
Speaker 1: ghost that came back. And there's a lot of death
Speaker 1: in Hoptown that people just don't know about because it
Speaker 1: was the Chinese section and it was kind of put aside.
Speaker 1: But it was just a very very interesting investigation. Great
Speaker 1: e vps, great film, you know evidence. When we crossed
Speaker 1: them over there when they drive, we had thirty people
Speaker 1: in that building. Everybody was in tears at the moment
Speaker 1: of the crossover because they could feel it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of gosh, you know again throw a rock.
Speaker 1: There's history and hauntings and Tombstone. We could do, you know,
Speaker 1: six shows on Alta, the different ones that we've found
Speaker 1: out in Tombstone. It's so good. Gomers and prostitutes that
Speaker 1: were associated with the birth age um that people forget about,
Speaker 1: and so it's always interesting to talk to them as well.
Speaker 1: This unknown or untapped history. Have you ever been able
Speaker 1: to like find some evidence and then kind of cross
Speaker 1: reference it with documentation in some way and it kind
Speaker 1: of uncover a piece of history that maybe was overlooked otherwise. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: to Beauford House, which is one of the most haunted
Speaker 1: houses private homes in Tombstone in fact ron and I
Speaker 1: got there ead there because uh, yeah, we have. We've
Speaker 1: really delved into the spiritual history and the actual history
Speaker 1: of the place and have found that as well. As
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the written and handed down history isn't
Speaker 1: exactly what happened. Yeah, exactly. Dig far enough and deep enough,
Speaker 1: you find out that the stories have changed, or it
Speaker 1: was altered, or it was whatever. And the Buford House
Speaker 1: is a prime example where history and folklore kind of
Speaker 1: got intertwined and the story got kind of lost along
Speaker 1: the way, so to speak. Again, that's very common in Tombstone.
Speaker 1: Between the actual history and the folklore that comes with it,
Speaker 1: you often have to dig through a lot to get
Speaker 1: to the truth. Yeah. Absolutely, you know, since it was
Speaker 1: kind of lawless, a lot of the things aren't quite
Speaker 1: in the newspapers and whatnot. I mean, there is a
Speaker 1: lot of interesting information if you can start to dig
Speaker 1: through like historical archives. But I imagine a lot of
Speaker 1: it is very skewed and not necessarily accurate. So the
Speaker 1: Beaufort House, is that a place that people can visit
Speaker 1: as well? Everyone knows the obvious spots, but you know,
Speaker 1: I'd love to spotlight some places people might not know.
Speaker 1: The Beaufort House is not open to the public. I
Speaker 1: can say it's a private residence that it was an
Speaker 1: Airbnb for a while, but because of the whole COVID thing,
Speaker 1: they had to shut that down, so it's strictly just
Speaker 1: a private residence. Now. There are a lot of ghost
Speaker 1: towns around it, other areas in Tombstone that maybe not
Speaker 1: well known. Trying to think of some of the better ones.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've investigated just about every building in Tombstone.
Speaker 1: The Courthouse is a great place. Yeah, the Episcopal Church. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's funny always in my brain because I spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time in Virginia City because I lived in
Speaker 1: California for so long, So in my brain I always
Speaker 1: kind of mix up the two in memories because they're
Speaker 1: so similar, and I have to like catch myself because
Speaker 1: they literally look very similar and have very similar histories
Speaker 1: as well. Have you heard any wild stories from people
Speaker 1: as far as encounters they've had with the paranormal in
Speaker 1: town that really stick out in your brain? You know,
Speaker 1: As far as wild ones, there's just I mean again,
Speaker 1: there's dozens of stories. But we've had people tell us that,
Speaker 1: you know, they've walked down the street in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night just to experience it, and they've seen
Speaker 1: very sharp a ghost of Virgil Earp and it started
Speaker 1: walking towards them and then disappeared. We've heard stories of
Speaker 1: you know, the Clantons walking down the street and then disappearing,
Speaker 1: stuff like that. You listen to enough of the stories
Speaker 1: and they kind of get wilder as they go, right,
Speaker 1: I can imagine how is Tombstone doing tours twice right now?
Speaker 1: With everything going on with COVID? Are are they recovering? Okay?
Speaker 1: Are people coming back now? Yeah? They are, they really are.
Speaker 1: They're coming back kind of in droves now that you
Speaker 1: know in Arizona here everything's opened up and they've lifted
Speaker 1: all the masks, stuff and everything else. So a lot
Speaker 1: of people from other states are actually flying in again
Speaker 1: to Tombstone because it's kind of quote unquote back to normal,
Speaker 1: so to speak. So, yeah, it's really getting busy now
Speaker 1: and people are coming in. We've got probably thirty or
Speaker 1: forty people coming in next week for our events, so
Speaker 1: we've kind of booked the hotels up, which is good.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's starting to really come back again.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the thing of Tombstone. You know,
Speaker 1: you think it's dead, it's a sound too tough to die.
Speaker 1: Before you know it, you know, it's it's booming again,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the history of Tombstone. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like it's kind of ebbed and flowed over the
Speaker 1: years when the pandemic was really in the thick of
Speaker 1: it and everything was closed and quiet. Did you do
Speaker 1: any investigating then or did Tombstone just kind of have
Speaker 1: a different vibe to it when that was going on?
Speaker 1: You know, it did. It had a different vibe, and
Speaker 1: it was very, very difficult to try to do any
Speaker 1: investigating because nobody wanted to open a building up for you,
Speaker 1: so it was difficult to investigate. But yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a very different vibe. It was I don't use this
Speaker 1: word often, but it was creepy because it wasn't the same.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that same vibe to get when you go there. Now,
Speaker 1: what happened, I don't know whether it was just the
Speaker 1: absence of people and things close it down, but it
Speaker 1: did change it for a while. But thankfully it's it's
Speaker 1: it's back and kicking again. Yeah, as we've been investigating
Speaker 1: again and kind of back out there, I always asked
Speaker 1: that because I don't know that we'll ever see that
Speaker 1: again in some of these haunted historical locations where the
Speaker 1: living people were just gone for months and it really
Speaker 1: affected some of the hauntings, and as soon as you
Speaker 1: kind of thought about the human aspect of these spirits
Speaker 1: and kind of like how confused they must be or
Speaker 1: you know, assuming that there's intelligence behind them. That we've
Speaker 1: been in some locations where activity just like completely ramped
Speaker 1: up at that time, and then in other locations it
Speaker 1: hasn't even really come back since then. So it's interesting
Speaker 1: to see how the personality of each hunt handled those
Speaker 1: months of quiet. Yeah. Yeah, and we're going to kind
Speaker 1: of find out next week with our event because we're
Speaker 1: going to be doing a few different locations. So it'll
Speaker 1: be interesting to see just coming out of the pandemic,
Speaker 1: if things are going to be as active or whether
Speaker 1: it's going to be cooled down a little bit or
Speaker 1: maybe ramped up. So we're curious how often do you
Speaker 1: do events out there? Ron and I put on an
Speaker 1: event every year. It may right around our anniversary can
Speaker 1: We got married at to Beauford House May eighteen, So
Speaker 1: we try to do an event during our anniversary, just
Speaker 1: kind of our thing we'd like to do. So we
Speaker 1: have it every year. We've done it for about seven
Speaker 1: years and it's it's been great. We have a lot
Speaker 1: of people that come in. We have you know, solver
Speaker 1: talent that we book to come in and investigate with
Speaker 1: the folks. And of course not last year because we
Speaker 1: got everything was shut down. But again we're picking up
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can continue. Well I think this will
Speaker 1: air too late for this year's but how can people
Speaker 1: kind of keep tabs on you and to sign up
Speaker 1: for next year and just kind of see what you're
Speaker 1: up to. Where can they find you? Oh, they can
Speaker 1: find us any place on social media, either through my
Speaker 1: name Dwight Hall, my wife's name Randa holl or be
Speaker 1: Leave Paranormal which is b E L I E v
Speaker 1: E paranormal dot com. We have a website. We have
Speaker 1: two books if you're interested. You know, folks out there,
Speaker 1: we have two books out there, working on a third
Speaker 1: almost complete, and of all the areas around Tombstone, in
Speaker 1: Tombstone and southern Arizona. So for those Old West fans
Speaker 1: it might be an interesting read. Well. That is fantastic,
Speaker 1: and I thank you guys for joining me and just
Speaker 1: kind of telling people a little bit more about the
Speaker 1: haunts in town. And I'm sure people are going to
Speaker 1: want to come visit, because now I know I do,
Speaker 1: so as soon as I get some time, I've got
Speaker 1: to pop into town and explore again because I miss it.
Speaker 1: It's a really great place and so much history and
Speaker 1: so many ghosts. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, guys. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. And hey, you want to pop into town,
Speaker 1: just let us know and we'll take you out for sure.
Speaker 1: It's been many years since I visited the town of Tombstone,
Speaker 1: and admittedly, putting together this episode made me really want
Speaker 1: to take a trip back there. There's something about the
Speaker 1: creation of an entire boom town, the buzz of new
Speaker 1: riches and dreams being fulfilled, coupled with the wild West
Speaker 1: romanticism that's really never left those streets. There is one
Speaker 1: memory that stands out for me. When I visited so
Speaker 1: many years ago, I had just completed an investigation and
Speaker 1: found myself at two am walking alone down Allen Street
Speaker 1: on the way it's my rental car. I didn't see
Speaker 1: a ghost, but in those moments of stillness, I could
Speaker 1: so strongly feel and imagine what Tombstone looked like during
Speaker 1: its heyday in the eighties. It draws you in and
Speaker 1: takes you back, just like it's drawn so many history lovers, tourists,
Speaker 1: and more recently, paranormal researchers. Perhaps that's why, when so
Speaker 1: many boom towns wasted away and disappeared, Tombstone is still
Speaker 1: lovingly referred to as the town Too Tough to Die.
Speaker 1: I'm Amy Bruney, and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and
Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Mankey. The podcast is written and hosted
Speaker 1: by Amy Bruney. Executive producers include Aaron Manky, Alex Williams,
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick. The show is produced by rima Ill
Speaker 1: Kali and Trevor Young. Taylor Haggerdorn is the show's researcher.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.