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Speaker 1: So I'm at Crime Con Orlando. I'm standing in the

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Speaker 1: lobby by myself. My husband and daughter have gone outside

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Speaker 1: to start loading our car because we had tons of

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Speaker 1: stuff that we had brought. There's a good looking guy,

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Speaker 1: young across the way of the lobby. We kind of

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Speaker 1: lock eyes. He starts walking towards me, and I hear

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Speaker 1: him say well, hey, honey, and of course in my

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Speaker 1: head I'm like, hey, honey. As he gets closer, he

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Speaker 1: says to me, You're the cutest thing I've ever seen,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, you know, I do what I

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Speaker 1: can in my head, I'm not saying any of this

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Speaker 1: out loud. And then he gets right to me and

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Speaker 1: I realized he's talking to my dog, and so he

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Speaker 1: starts petting Traveler and we're talking and I'm of course

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Speaker 1: holding Traveler, and so we got a lab and he says,

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Speaker 1: can I help you with your luggage? Because I still

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Speaker 1: had tons of items to take outside. I was just

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Speaker 1: waiting for Walt and Caroline to come back. So I

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Speaker 1: go outside. We all have a big laugh of what

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Speaker 1: I was originally thinking, and then of course what was reality.

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Speaker 1: But it was such a Crime Conway for me because

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Speaker 1: everybody is so friendly. Everybody is so kind, everybody's so

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Speaker 1: willing to help. And this young man was no different.

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Speaker 1: He was so sweet to traveler, he was super kind

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Speaker 1: to Caroline, and of course he helped Walt Nye pack

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Speaker 1: up the van. And this young man was George Jarrett.

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Speaker 1: And y'all know him as a true crime author. He's

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Speaker 1: covered numerous murder cases, including the infamous West Memphis three.

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Speaker 1: He's an award winning journalist. He's been featured in The

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Speaker 1: New York Times and USA Today. He's consulted on two

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Speaker 1: different documentaries, and y'all have seen him on Discover I

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Speaker 1: d George Jarret, Welcome to his own seven.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. In fact, seven is my

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Speaker 2: lucky numbers. So this is a great podcast.

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Speaker 1: For me, fantastic. I have been looking so forward to

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Speaker 1: talking to you. We got a lot to cover here, honey,

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Speaker 1: So let's get right into your background. You went to

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Speaker 1: college where and wanted to study what?

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Speaker 2: I went to a small liberal arts college called Lion

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Speaker 2: College except in the Ozark Hills. My goal in life, Cheryl,

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Speaker 2: was to be a lawyer. You know, I took a

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Speaker 2: lot of pre law classes. You know, I wind up

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Speaker 2: some law schools, and my senior year of college, you know,

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Speaker 2: something happened to me. I met a lot of miserable

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Speaker 2: and broke lawyers. And so I told myself, I can

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Speaker 2: either be miserable or broke, but I couldn't do both.

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Speaker 2: And so so I did what anyological person would do,

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Speaker 2: is I opened up a newspaper and noticed that a

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Speaker 2: local newspaper needed a reporter.

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Speaker 3: And I, you know, I.

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Speaker 2: Just graduated from college, and so I thought, okay, I'll

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Speaker 2: go work at a newspaper for a while, even though

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Speaker 2: I really didn't have any background in it. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I was the editor of my school paper when I

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Speaker 2: was like in high school and stuff like that, and

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Speaker 2: I'd written some columns for a local newspaper when I

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Speaker 2: was younger i was in college. But so I went

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Speaker 2: into a writing test and the others like, hey, you

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Speaker 2: can write.

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Speaker 3: He said, I'll tell you what's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna let you cover cops and courts for a year,

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Speaker 2: and after that year you're going to it'll be clear,

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Speaker 2: you'll be ready to go to law school, and then

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Speaker 2: you'll have some experience dealing with some of that kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff. So the first six seven months of working

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Speaker 2: for him, I covered school board meetings and city council

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Speaker 2: meetings and you know, just all sorts of pretty mundane stuff,

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Speaker 2: civics legislation. On September twenty second, two thousand and four,

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Speaker 2: I got a phone call.

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Speaker 3: So I went down to.

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Speaker 2: The local sheriff's department where this twenty two year old

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Speaker 2: college student's family had gathered. And her name was Rebecca Gould,

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Speaker 2: and I met her father, doctor Larry Gould, met her sisters.

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Speaker 2: She was very close to one sister in particular named Danielle,

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Speaker 2: and also met her mother, Shirley Ballard, And so we

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Speaker 2: spent the next week trying to find her back a Ghould.

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Speaker 2: She was a college student and she would come home

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Speaker 2: to this little town called Melbourne, which is in kind

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Speaker 2: of in the north central part of the state of Arkansas.

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Speaker 2: It's up in the Ozark Hills as well, and she

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Speaker 2: would come home to instay at the sort of ex

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Speaker 2: boyfriend's house. His name was Casey McCollough. They were kind

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Speaker 2: of odd to give off again. And she was going

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Speaker 2: to college about three and a half hours away up

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Speaker 2: in Bedville, which is up in northwest Arkansas. And so

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Speaker 2: the day that she vanished. The story goes that she was.

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Speaker 2: It was a Monday morning. She drops him off at work,

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Speaker 2: she goes back to her his house to collect her dog,

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Speaker 2: her car, her personal effects, cell phone, and then she's

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Speaker 2: going to make the three plus hour drive back college.

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Speaker 3: Along the way, she's going to pick up her sister, Danielle.

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Speaker 2: Well, that day comes and goes, and she never to

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Speaker 2: pick up Danielle. Casey stays at work all day, and

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Speaker 2: then the story is is that he meets up with

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Speaker 2: four friends that night or after work, and then they

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Speaker 2: go out to watch a movie in an adjacent town.

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Speaker 2: They go out to eat, and then he ends up

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Speaker 2: spending the night at one of these other guys's houses.

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Speaker 2: Rebecca's family spent that night and the next morning trying

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Speaker 2: to find her. They called the Sheriff's department Casey the boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: The first story was that he stayed at the friend's

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Speaker 2: house and then he went straight from the friend's house

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Speaker 2: to work, and then that's when the Sheriff's apartment contacts

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Speaker 2: him to tell him, you know, that they need to

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Speaker 2: a welfare check at his house. Of course, I found

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Speaker 2: out later that he actually did go home that morning

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Speaker 2: to get some clothes.

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Speaker 3: And what was peculiar about that Cheryl is that the

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Speaker 3: home his home. The bedding had.

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Speaker 2: Been removed from his bed, there were bloody sheets in

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Speaker 2: the washing machine, the mattress had been flipped. That were

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Speaker 2: pillows underneath with blood on them, underneath his bed. There

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Speaker 2: was blood strewed throughout the house. That was hard to

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Speaker 2: see in some spots, just because the carpeting was kind

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Speaker 2: of a red brown color, so it was kind of

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Speaker 2: hard to notice it first. But what was interesting is

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Speaker 2: that there's blood found all over this house. But her

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Speaker 2: car is there, her keys are there, her cell phone

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Speaker 2: is there, all of her clothes are there. Her uninjured dog,

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Speaker 2: a Pomeranian named Lady, was also in the house, but

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Speaker 2: she was gone. And so, you know, a natural question

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Speaker 2: I had for years was, you know, how did he

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Speaker 2: not notice all this stuff in his house? Because the

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Speaker 2: story is he went in and got some clothes to

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Speaker 2: go to work, and then he went back to work.

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Speaker 1: Now, the odds of a doul not coming right up

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Speaker 1: to you when you enter a house pretty slam, wouldn't

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Speaker 1: you agree?

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this is two thousand and four. What's the

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Speaker 1: actual date.

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Speaker 3: It is September twentieth, two thousand and four, is the

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Speaker 3: day that she allegedly vanished.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and she was last seen at a convenience store

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Speaker 1: that used to be called the Possum Trot. Was there

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Speaker 1: anybody seen with her, any surveillance video anything.

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Speaker 3: No, Sheryl.

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Speaker 2: And for years we were told that there was video

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Speaker 2: of her in that convenience store. There's no video of it.

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Speaker 2: The only person who saw her was one clerk who

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Speaker 2: now tells me she's not sure if she saw her

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Speaker 2: on that day or not. She said she would see

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Speaker 2: Rebecca from time to time come into that store, but

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Speaker 2: she's not sure if she saw.

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Speaker 3: Her Monday morning or not.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one thing I'll tell your listeners now about

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Speaker 2: this case in particular, is there is very possible she

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Speaker 2: was alive Monday morning. I'm not saying she wasn't, but

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Speaker 2: there is absolutely no proof that she is alive Monday morning.

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Speaker 1: And the concern is, of course, her belongings and her

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Speaker 1: dog are at a location where there is blood, So

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Speaker 1: they did find her body? Where did they find her body? So?

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Speaker 2: A week after she disappeared, some searchers were searching along

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Speaker 2: a highway Arkansas Highway nine it's like this rural thoroughfare

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Speaker 2: that connects Melbourne to her native town of Mountain View,

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Speaker 2: where she grew up. And when I say rural, I'm

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Speaker 2: talking very rural. There's no shoulder on this highway. There's

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Speaker 2: like a wildlife refuge area called Devil's Dead not too

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Speaker 2: far down into this area. And her body was found

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Speaker 2: down in an embankment about seventeen feet off the highway.

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Speaker 2: It's a very steep embankment, very very very wooded. I

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Speaker 2: was actually out there the morning that they found her body.

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Speaker 3: I actually saw her. You know.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, now being a seasoned you know, true crime author

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Speaker 2: and journalist, I've seen, you know, lots of horrifying, this

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Speaker 2: terrible things, but that was the first time, so I

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Speaker 2: automatically would.

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Speaker 3: Never forget that.

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Speaker 2: But as bad as that was, I had to go

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Speaker 2: back to the sheriff's department right after that, because her

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Speaker 2: body wasn't found that far from the sheriff's department in

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Speaker 2: that county, was only found about five miles away. When

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Speaker 2: I got to the sheriff's department, her father, doctor w.

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Speaker 2: Verry Gould, was there, and obviously there was a rumber

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Speaker 2: going around that they'd found a body, and so he

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Speaker 2: wanted to know if they'd found his daughter, and I

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Speaker 2: told him, At first I told him, you need to

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Speaker 2: talk to the sheriff. But then finally he really was

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Speaker 2: very adamant that he needed to know, and so I

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Speaker 2: told him, I said, we don't have anybody else that's

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Speaker 2: missing county, and.

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Speaker 1: You have a really unique I'm just going to say

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Speaker 1: opportunity here, because to me, that's what it is when

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Speaker 1: you're looking at something that is going to become a

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Speaker 1: cold case, per se that not only were you there

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Speaker 1: this within the hour that she goes missing and the

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Speaker 1: families gathered, you're now on seen while the body is

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Speaker 1: literally being recovered. So you have this visual component to

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Speaker 1: your notes, You have an ear witness component to your notes,

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Speaker 1: like you have. To me, this is a gift when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about can I go back years later and

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Speaker 1: look at my notes and glean anything from it? Pulls

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Speaker 1: something out of it that even some members of law

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Speaker 1: enforcement aren't going to have.

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Speaker 2: It's absolutely true, Cheryl. I mean, it's amazing because this case,

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Speaker 2: you know, went cold for so long. I'm talking they

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Speaker 2: went through two or three sheriffs in that county in

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Speaker 2: this amount of time. And I'm talking that the sheriffs

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Speaker 2: died like they had a couple of sheriffs who just

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Speaker 2: died from natural causes.

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Speaker 3: It was that long.

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Speaker 1: Well, you worked on it eighteen years.

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Speaker 2: Actually I worked on in nineteen because I actually went

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Speaker 2: and interviewed the guy that has been convicted of her

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Speaker 2: murder just about a month ago in prison.

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Speaker 1: So, well, let's clear that up, because every single day counts.

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Speaker 1: So when you're talking about nineteen years that you have devoted,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have a level of expertise on this

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Speaker 1: case that, again for the family, is a money tree.

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Speaker 2: You know, as a journalist, my job is to be

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Speaker 2: an observer and to collect facts and things like that.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, Chaulan, you know this too, you know,

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Speaker 2: especially like when when someone gets murdered and they their

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Speaker 2: body's found and this whole thing is like the whole

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Speaker 2: family is collapsing right in front of you her very eyes,

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Speaker 2: like they don't know what to think or feel. And

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Speaker 2: you go back and talk to them years later, a

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Speaker 2: lot of these family members and they don't remember anything

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Speaker 2: that happened from the moment they were told, you know,

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Speaker 2: there might be two three weeks later, they still are

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Speaker 2: just in a foggy blur. And you know that happened

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Speaker 2: to doctor Gould in this case because I've been friends

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Speaker 2: with him every day since I've met him.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was at his house.

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Speaker 2: I was at his house a month ago helping work

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Speaker 2: on a documentary film project about his daughter's case. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's a very it's I will never forget.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I still have the missing poster sitting right

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Speaker 2: over here next to my desk.

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Speaker 1: This is a very important aspect of your work that

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Speaker 1: I want everybody to understand. You don't have the complete

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Speaker 1: case file. You utilize open source information. Talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about not needing the case file to still investigate

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Speaker 1: a case.

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Speaker 2: I've done it several times throughout my career, where you know,

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Speaker 2: we have a murder case, cold case. Obviously, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if there's a state in the in the United

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Speaker 2: States that allows people to have access to cold case files.

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Speaker 2: In my experience, most states don't allow that. Basically, you

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Speaker 2: have to develop, you know, information sources, you have to develop,

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Speaker 2: you have to do your own stuff basically to try

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Speaker 2: to figure out what happened, because unfortunately, you know, for

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Speaker 2: all the good work that police do you know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: what a case is cold, it's not and we actually

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Speaker 2: kind of found that out in this case. It's not

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Speaker 2: just because it's impossible to solve or they don't have

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Speaker 2: the evidence. Sometimes a prosecutor or a detective or an

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Speaker 2: agency will just get blinders. They will develop a theory

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Speaker 2: of the case, and if their theories are wrong, then

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Speaker 2: they're going to spend a lot of time and resources,

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Speaker 2: you know, searching for something that isn't there. And that's

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Speaker 2: exactly what happened in this case. You know, I was

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Speaker 2: fortunate because, like you said, I was onseen from the beginning,

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Speaker 2: so I was I went to the house where the

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Speaker 2: murder happened. You know, I looked around the property. I

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Speaker 2: had access. I did have some people inside the investigation

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Speaker 2: who leaked some things to me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: That's another part of it, too, is she developed sources

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Speaker 2: and you know sometimes they'll say, hey, you didn't hear

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Speaker 2: this from me, but this is a part of the

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Speaker 2: case file.

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Speaker 3: And so I did have some of that stuff leaked

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Speaker 3: to me through the years.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Gould eventually got her autopsy, which was given to me,

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Speaker 2: and then I actually gave it to a friend of

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Speaker 2: mine who's an expert and has access to experts in

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Speaker 2: forensic pathology because we wanted we found out you know

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Speaker 2: that you know, basically that the story was she was

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Speaker 2: hit once or twice in the head. Well actually the

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Speaker 2: in the autops reporter said she was hit once, but

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Speaker 2: when you actually dug down and analyzed what they found,

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Speaker 2: she was actually struck twice in the head. And the

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Speaker 2: interesting part of that was that it wasn't just that

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Speaker 2: she was struck in the head. It's the only murder

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Speaker 2: in the history of the United States where the murder

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Speaker 2: weapon was a loose piano leg. Because one thing I

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Speaker 2: forgot to mention before. Of all this stuff that was

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Speaker 2: in the house, the two things that were not or

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Speaker 2: three things were Rebecca, one of her big suitcases, and

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Speaker 2: this piano leg off of piano in the living room.

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Speaker 3: It was gone.

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Speaker 2: Now this piano leg would come loose Eryl, So people

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Speaker 2: who would come to that house would know that it

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Speaker 2: would come loose, but not very many people came to

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Speaker 2: that house, and not very many people knew about this. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, as this investigation is developing, you know, over

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Speaker 2: the days and the weeks after Rebecca's murder, you know,

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Speaker 2: they start looking at a myriad of suspects. Rebecca's like

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Speaker 2: she was in college, she smoked marijuana, she did stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. I mean, but there was no evidence from

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Speaker 2: her autopsy that she was involved in any heavy drug

293
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Speaker 2: use or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: But the lead detective in the case developed a.

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Speaker 2: Theory that someone that she knew from high school kind

296
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Speaker 2: of knew from around he was a drug eet. You know,

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Speaker 2: he had a long drug history and he had gotten

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Speaker 2: high on mets at a party one night and said

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Speaker 2: that he had done something to Rebecca. And so based

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Speaker 2: on that, this detective on the case spent years and

301
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Speaker 2: years and years going after this one guy. And you know,

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Speaker 2: from my perspective, you know, I'm a journalist. I go

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Speaker 2: on to write about other murder cases. I cover other

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Speaker 2: things in life. I cover everything agriculture, business, politics, you know, economics.

305
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Speaker 2: I do stories with entertainers. You know, it's about once

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Speaker 2: a year, I'm coming back to Rebecca's case, going okay,

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Speaker 2: you know what's going on. So then finally, after probably

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Speaker 2: a decade, her dad finally started to get aggravated.

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Speaker 3: And he's very pro police pro.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you meet this guy, that's that's his

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Speaker 2: whole thing, Like you go into his house and he

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Speaker 2: gives you know, he's friends with the sheriff and his county,

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Speaker 2: like good friends, and he gives money to sheriff candidates.

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Speaker 3: I mean, is he does all that.

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Speaker 2: Stuff, but he had no us And there was a

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Speaker 2: couple of reasons why, Cheryl, Because this is something that

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Speaker 2: was driving me crazy in this case. And again I'm

318
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Speaker 2: not in a detective I don't have a background in that.

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Speaker 2: But there was a couple of things that happened in

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Speaker 2: this case that I thought were noteworthy. Number one, as

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Speaker 2: I thought, okay, well, if this piano leg is the

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Speaker 2: murder weapon, how many people know about the penel leg?

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Speaker 2: That's the number of suspects you start with right there,

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Speaker 2: because it wasn't very many.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And that's what I was going to ask you about.

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Speaker 1: Did law enforcement zero in on this piano leg early

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Speaker 1: or did somebody kind of guide them toward that? Because

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, as a crime see investigator, if I walk

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Speaker 1: into a place it's got blood all over it, and

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Speaker 1: I noticed a piano with three legs, come on home?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, Cheryl, and I hate to do

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Speaker 2: this because there are some police officers who work in

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Speaker 2: that agency that I really like, But they didn't notice

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Speaker 2: the piano leg was missing when they did their original

335
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Speaker 2: sweep of the house. They swept the house for an

336
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Speaker 2: entire day. It was after they gave the house back

337
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Speaker 2: to Casey the sort of ex boyfriend and his dad

338
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Speaker 2: also lived there too. When they were able to go

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Speaker 2: back in the house, they noticed that the piano leg

340
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Speaker 2: was missing, and.

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Speaker 3: They reported it to police.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good enough.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not sure how they missed it. Also, one

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Speaker 2: of the pieces of evidence that was found in a microwave,

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Speaker 2: and this is after the fact, so the chain of

346
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Speaker 2: custody was broken. I want to clarify that the one

347
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 2: piece of evidence that they thought could prove that she

348
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Speaker 2: was at that convenience store was they found a breakfast

349
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Speaker 2: sandwich and an a cappuccino that hadn't been drank in

350
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Speaker 2: the microwave. But again, the family found this after the

351
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Speaker 2: house was swept, and there's no proof that she bought it.

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Speaker 2: I even talked to the league detective. Heminisent a lot

353
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Speaker 2: of time on the phone not too long ago, just

354
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Speaker 2: going back and forth on that because the receipt that

355
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,400
Speaker 2: they say matches that doesn't. But anyway, so doctor Gold

356
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,080
Speaker 2: finally got the addotypes of report, we were able to

357
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Speaker 2: figure out that she had been struck twice in the head,

358
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Speaker 2: not once. And also something of public detail we never

359
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,600
Speaker 2: revealed was that her highway bone was found in pieces. Now,

360
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 2: the medical examiner thought it could be due to decomposition,

361
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Speaker 2: you know, But the problem is is that she'd only

362
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Speaker 2: been out there for a week, and it's really hard

363
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Speaker 2: for me to believe that ligaments would decompose like that.

364
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,479
Speaker 2: She was pretty badly decomposed even for being out there

365
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 2: a week, but there was still a lot of flesh left,

366
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Speaker 2: you know, not to be too gory, So I didn't

367
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Speaker 2: buy that. But the other explanation is that she was

368
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Speaker 2: manually strangled possible, and so that does come into play

369
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Speaker 2: later on as the case developed. Now there was something else,

370
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Speaker 2: Cheryl about the case. It wasn't just a piano let.

371
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Speaker 2: The person who removed Rebecca's body basically drove her down

372
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Speaker 2: an ancient gravel road that's very, very treacherous to basically

373
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Speaker 2: come out about one hundred yards from where her body

374
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 2: was found on that main highway, but you can almost

375
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Speaker 2: go directly from the property she was on on these

376
00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 2: old agent gravel roads where you won't see any cars.

377
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Speaker 2: There's like maybe one or two houses for an eight

378
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,640
Speaker 2: mile stretch, lots of wet weather, creeks, very hard to navigate.

379
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,920
Speaker 2: But the thing about it is is it tells you

380
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,080
Speaker 2: a couple things. Number One, whoever killed her needed to

381
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Speaker 2: get her body out of the house, because somehow that's

382
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,879
Speaker 2: going to tie them to the crime. It also shows

383
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 2: that the person who did it had to have cardinal

384
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,159
Speaker 2: knowledge of this very rural or remote area. And so

385
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,439
Speaker 2: that was a couple of other things that I couldn't

386
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 2: understand why the police weren't hounding in on. And there's

387
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Speaker 2: also one final detail. The killer tried to clean up

388
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Speaker 2: the mess. They put sheets in the washing machine, they

389
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,360
Speaker 2: tried to wash the base boards. There's bleach everywhere. Whoever

390
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: did this tried to clean it up. And once again

391
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 2: I go back to the boyfriend who came home. I'm

392
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,119
Speaker 2: still puzzled as to how he didn't notice all that,

393
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 2: but I digress.

394
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 1: And again, that doesn't sound like a stranger. There's no

395
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Speaker 1: way you're going to come in and kill somebody you

396
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: don't know and say, you know what, I need to

397
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,239
Speaker 1: start a load of clothes, because you wouldn't care and

398
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: to your point, I want to go back to the

399
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 1: piano leg again, because the only reason that thing was

400
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: taken is because you're DNA is on it too, and

401
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 1: her blood is on it. Just like you tried to

402
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,919
Speaker 1: clean up. You realize you can, so you toss her

403
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 1: in the suitcase, you grab the piano leg, and you're

404
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,360
Speaker 1: out because you realize, I'm not going to be able

405
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,760
Speaker 1: to clean this up. And if you're talking about being

406
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 1: struck once or twice with an object that is that

407
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 1: heavy and that massive, the cast off is going to

408
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 1: be crazy, the initial blow with potential blood splatter going

409
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: at a high velocity all over numerous items. I tell

410
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 1: people all the time, if you have ever dropped something

411
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: in your kitchen, like a bowl of spaghetti, you know

412
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: it is almost impossible to get it all in the

413
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: first time. Then you'll notice the next day a drop

414
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 1: or two on a cabinet, or on the bottom part

415
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 1: of the refrigerator, or even in the sea. Can know

416
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 1: how that happened. But when you're talking about blood, I

417
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: mean he could go everywhere, so it would be futile

418
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: to try to clean the scene up. I'll tell you that.

419
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,680
Speaker 1: But again, this is somebody clearly she.

420
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 2: Knew, totally agree, and the police were like that their

421
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 2: primary suspect in this case for all those years. He

422
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 2: he said he had never been to Casey, He didn't

423
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: know where Casey lived. He had never been to that trailer.

424
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: And so I knew just from the fact that he

425
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: had never been arrested. I knew that they didn't have

426
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: his fingerprints or DNA at the scene. And you know,

427
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: and this is and this guy is not a sophisticated criminal.

428
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:42,880
Speaker 3: You know.

429
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 2: He he got in trouble because, you know, one of

430
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 2: the other suspects in the case was one of Rebecca's

431
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: like high school boyfriend, you know, she went out with

432
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 2: him some of college. He confronted him because he you know,

433
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: because everybody in this small town, they're all, you know,

434
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: all these different suspects, they're all thinking it's the other

435
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,480
Speaker 2: or one because that's what the police have told him,

436
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: and he confronted him. He actually went down prison for

437
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: threatening this guy.

438
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's important for people to understand

439
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 1: the significance of the dump site, but that's not the

440
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: whole gig here. So if you look at the murder site,

441
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:26,879
Speaker 1: the transport distance, and the dump site, what time, Taylor,

442
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: are you talking about? How far from the murder site

443
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 1: to the dump site would it be driven?

444
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: Normal, it's about an eight mile trek, but it is

445
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 2: a very treacherous route. A lot of there's like it's

446
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 2: it's kind of like an old it's like an it's

447
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: like a gravel road, but it was more like a

448
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: timber road, you know, like the big timber trucks would

449
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: used to harvest timber. And so it's the funny thing

450
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: is if you if you looked at a map, okay,

451
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: where this happens. This happens in this little township called

452
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 2: outside of Guy, And so there are three routes you

453
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 2: could take to get to this spot where her body

454
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: was found. Now, the main route would take you all

455
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 2: the way through Melbourne in this town of about two

456
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 2: thousand people, which is the county seat in that county. Now,

457
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: it's one of these very traditional old southern towns where

458
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 2: every single business is lined up along the main thoroughfare.

459
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 2: So quite literally, if the killer took her this route

460
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 2: middle of the day, because you know, we're still assuming

461
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: she was murdered Monday morning, if the killer took this route,

462
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: it would take this person past every single business in town,

463
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: including you'd have to go through the only stoplight in

464
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 2: this town. And then toward the end of the route

465
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 2: is when you start getting out of town again. At

466
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 2: that pinch point is actually the turn off to go

467
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 2: to the Sheriff's department, which would have sheriff's deputies and

468
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 2: state police and Drug Task Force guys continuously coming in

469
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: and out. So it's really hard to fathom that this

470
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 2: person would drive this route, especially when if you see

471
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: the spot where her body was dumped the embankment. There's

472
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 2: no shoulder there, there's nothing there. So you're going to

473
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 2: stop in the middle of the road, unload this body,

474
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: throw her down this embankment. I'm not saying that that

475
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 2: route's impossible, but it's it's pretty hard to fathom.

476
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: But George, here's the reality. In a small town like

477
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,479
Speaker 1: where my parents came from, everybody knows your car or

478
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: your truck or your motorcycle. They can look down main

479
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: Street and tell you who's shop and where. There's no

480
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: way he would have taken that route with a dead

481
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: body in his vehicle.

482
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 2: No chance, no chance. And here's the thing. So Casey,

483
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: obviously the boyfriend, he's a suspect, you know, I mean

484
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: whether you know he was a primary suspect in the case.

485
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: You know, police said that he had a kind of

486
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: a low riding, smaller truck. His cousin, William Miller, who

487
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 2: was interviewed as a potential suspect, he had a low riding,

488
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: smaller truck. Casey's brothers all had, you know, smaller trucks.

489
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: So it's even more than just like, let's say she

490
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: was in the trunk of a car. You know, that

491
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: would be brazen enough, But these guys don't even have that.

492
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: They have these lowriding trucks that quite literally you could

493
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 2: look into the bed if they were stopped at that

494
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: stop lot.

495
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: So you start a Facebook page, tell us what occurred

496
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,719
Speaker 1: with somebody named William Miller.

497
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 3: Let me back up just a little bit.

498
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: So in twenty sixteen, I wrote my first book about

499
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: the West Memphis three, and I included the prologue to

500
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: the book was about Rebecca's case because it had been

501
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: twelve years at that point, and I wanted to try

502
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: to raise some awareness because her dad was working so

503
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 2: hard to try to find a way to find her killer.

504
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: During one of my book signings for that book, the

505
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 2: lead detective in the case at the time, came to

506
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 2: my book signing and he wanted to talk to me

507
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: about the things I knew about the case, and so

508
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: I told him next time, instead of sneaking into a

509
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: book signing, he could just call me on my cell

510
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: phone because he had my number. And so he and

511
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: I start talking and he keeps telling me, you know,

512
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: he's telling me this story about how there are facts

513
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 2: in this case that I'm not aware of, and that

514
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 2: all roads point to this guy. This this this guy

515
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: who's involved in drugs. And I told in the lead

516
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: detective's first name was Dennis. I said, Dennis, I said,

517
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: this is what I don't understand. If this is just

518
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: some drug deal gone wrong, and this is just some

519
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: druggie collecting a debt or something like that, why didn't

520
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: he bring a gun, put one bullet in her head

521
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 2: and then torch that place. Why would he clean up?

522
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: Why would he do all these other things that no

523
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: one else is going to do. These are all behavioral

524
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: aspects of this crime that I think you guys need

525
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: to study. And he dismissed it, said, now you know whatever.

526
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: So then a year later, I get an email from

527
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: a woman named Catherine Towns, and I'm sure you know Catherine,

528
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 2: and she wanted to do She said, I want to

529
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: start a podcast called Helen Gone, and I want my

530
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: first season to be about Rebecca Gould's case. And so

531
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 2: I agreed to come onto that and I did four

532
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: or five episodes with Catherine, and I just kind of

533
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 2: let her kind of you know, giving basically the same

534
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: synopsis has given you guy, you guys right here. Well,

535
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: what happened was is that podcast took off. It was featured,

536
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: I think it was Doctor Oz did an hour long

537
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: show on it. I think Doctor Phil talked about it.

538
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: It just it just it just grew legs and ran

539
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: all over the country. And so there was this national

540
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: following started following this case. When the hell of Goon

541
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: podcast came out, there was a bunch of Facebook pages

542
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 2: that were that were developed about Rebecca's case, and all

543
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: these people were getting on there, and of course the

544
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: helling Gon podcast started casting. You know, they started looking

545
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 2: back at the McCullough family, the whole family, because, like

546
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: you said, Cheryl, it's blatantly obvious that whoever did this

547
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 2: was familiar with that that house was familiar with her schedule,

548
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: with Casey's schedule, it had to be somebody that knew them,

549
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 2: or it had to be someone in their family.

550
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 3: Period.

551
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: That's the only reasonable explanation. And so these family members

552
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: would get on it, and of course every episode would

553
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: come out, it would make it look like it was

554
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: maybe more of this suspect than that. So of course

555
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: they got out there and they start fighting. But one

556
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 2: thing I noticed when these comments would get into the

557
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: you know, the comments and the likes would get into

558
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: the hundreds, you know, is that people, especially family members,

559
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: you know, they would start saying things they shouldn't say.

560
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, I realized, I actually realized too

561
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: late on that phenomenon, that they were actually saying things

562
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: that might be permanent or have some value, you know,

563
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: that they may know things that they weren't letting on.

564
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 3: That they knew.

565
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 2: Pretty soon after we start this Facebook page, I'm talking

566
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: with it. A week or two, a guy named William Miller,

567
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: who is Casey McCullough's first cousin, joined our page. This

568
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 2: guy was living in the Philippines at the time. He

569
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: was an American, he had married a Filipino woman. He

570
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: had some kids in the Philippines with her. I had

571
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: a plantation there. He worked around the world as an

572
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: oil rig worker. We would have no reason to suspect

573
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: that this guy would have anything to do with this

574
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: murder for a couple of very simple reasons. Number one,

575
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: he's just a first cousin. You know, everybody's got first cousins.

576
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: I mean, that's not suspectious. Another reason would be that

577
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: he lived in Arramsas Past, Texas, which is eleven to

578
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: twelve hours away from Melbourne. Okay, so this guy's, you know,

579
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: living very far away. On a coincidental side note, I

580
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: would go down to Ramsas Pass every now and then

581
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: and he lived there for years, even after the murder,

582
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: because my aunt and nuckle actually lived there. So I

583
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: would actually go down to this small town on the

584
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: Texas coast and he.

585
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: Was living there.

586
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: He's on our page and he's giving theories as to

587
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: how she died, and he's sending people messages. In January

588
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty, the detective.

589
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 3: On the case. It is removed now.

590
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: The official story from the state police is is that

591
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: he was getting ready to retire, which was not true.

592
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: What happened was is that because of all this public

593
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: pressure that had been applied through all these various podcasts

594
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: and Facebook pages and all this other stuff. The higher

595
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: ups in the State Police finally had added enough and

596
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: they decided to assign one of their better detectives, a

597
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: guy named Mike McNeil, to the case. I loved it

598
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: on dateline when they talked about Rebecca's case, they came

599
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: out and said, you're O, you know he was retiring

600
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 2: all this other stuff. Well, I flies personnel file and

601
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 2: guess what this was in January of twenty twenty, right,

602
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: he's retiring. Well in July, on July thirty first of

603
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, he submitted a letter asking for voluntary retirement,

604
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 2: meaning he was still employed there eighteen months later. So

605
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: I just and the reason I'm saying that, Cheryl is

606
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: is because there's some notion out there that if you're

607
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: on a podcast, or if you're in doing this work

608
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: in some other way than being directly like a detective

609
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: or working for an agency, that you can't have a

610
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: positive impact on these investigations. And that's just not you know,

611
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: they tried to play it off that you know, you

612
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: know that that they made the decision for him to

613
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: leave and the only reason they did it was because

614
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: he was retiring. It's not true. It's because they knew

615
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: that he was not a vestigators properly. Now, it might

616
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: mean Mule got assigned to it all of a sudden

617
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: things change because he started deep diving into the case file.

618
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: Because and he'll never I'm just he'll never admit this,

619
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: but I'm sure that some of the arguments we were

620
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: making about this behavioral stuff. I know it was having

621
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: an impact because you can look at the case file

622
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 2: now and see what investigative steps he was taking. And

623
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: he immediately even said it on the stand at a

624
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: suppression hearing months later, he said, my focus turned to

625
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: the McCullough family, and that's when everything changed.

626
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: You now have a book, you now have nineteen years invested,

627
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: you've got interviews that you've done, You've been to the scene,

628
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: and I will tell you, everybody that has ever listened

629
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: to this podcast, here's me say it at nauseum. Nothing

630
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: takes the place of going to the scene. Nothing. It

631
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:55,239
Speaker 1: gives you so much information because that killer picked that site.

632
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: And I'll just talk about the third crime scene, because

633
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: you had the first crime scene where the murderer car

634
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 1: the transport vehicle is a secondary crime scene. Then the

635
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: third crime scene here is the body disposal site. That

636
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: right there gives you insight to that killer like nothing else.

637
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: He picked the place, he picked, the time, the location,

638
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: the manor he selected whether or not he was going

639
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: to bury her, cover her, or leave her in the

640
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: wide open. All that was his decision. The actual location

641
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: that you have described so well, it's not just rural,

642
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: it's off the beaten path. To get there, you can

643
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: take these back roads where you're not going to be seen.

644
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: There's not going to be anybody around. There's no houses,

645
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: no businesses, nobody's out hunting. The only reason to go

646
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: there is because you know nobody's going to see you

647
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: or your car.

648
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: That is correct. Couldn't agree with everything you said more.

649
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: Going to the scene is so vital. It gives you

650
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: so many clues. I mean, I can't tell you anytime,

651
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: you know, as a journalist or even just writing or

652
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: for whatever endeavors I'm you know, go into and we'll

653
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: tell you things that you will never pick up just

654
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: reading a report.

655
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: So where did you go next? You've got all this information,

656
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: all these interviews, You've been to the scene, you've got

657
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: this person contacting you. Where are you now?

658
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: Through this process, Cheryl, I would have people anonymously contact

659
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: me from time to time. Okay, So like I would

660
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: you know if somebody would contact me off like I'll

661
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: give you. For instance, I get a DM from a

662
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 2: woman who had dated Casey after Rebecca's murder, and she

663
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me, and all of a sudden,

664
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: talking to her led to some very interesting things. So

665
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: every now and then we would get somebody would give

666
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: us an anonymous tip or something. Well, in September of

667
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, we had a guy Approachest and say, hey,

668
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 2: something really weird happened around the time that Rebecca Ghoul vanished.

669
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: And he had a relative who was a teacher who

670
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: worked for the Mount Pleasant School District, which was the

671
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: local school district where this all happened. He said that

672
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: his teacher relative and an administrator had a weird incident

673
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 2: after school one day where this man and his mother

674
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 2: showed up at the school and they wanted to take

675
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: this man's little brother, his name is Jeremy. They wanted

676
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: to take him out of school. He was like fourteen,

677
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: and they were moving back to Texas, where they were

678
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: duly from and so as he's telling this story, we're like, well,

679
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 2: who was this person? And it turns out that this

680
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: person was William Miller at his mother Linda. Linda and

681
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 2: Jeremy had moved to the Melbourne area Melbourne slash guy

682
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: in area about four months before this happened, and William

683
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: had come up that weekend to visit with him. We

684
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: didn't know that he was in town the weekend that

685
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,919
Speaker 2: this whole thing happened. So as soon as we found

686
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 2: this out in September of twenty twenty, we told this

687
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: person who knew this story, we told this person to

688
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: contact Mike McNeil, who was the lead detective on the

689
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: case now, to let him know what was going on.

690
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 2: And in a bit of irony, so Mike McNeil, I

691
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: think he was like a resource officer for a local

692
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: high school before he got on with the State Police. Well,

693
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: when he became a detective with the State Police, he

694
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: already had an office in that school and the school

695
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: offered to let him keep it just for the simple

696
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: fact that they would have another police officer on campus.

697
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: You know, it's never a bad thing, you know, when

698
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: you're talking about safety, for students, so he kept that office.

699
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: That teacher and that administrator both worked for the Sarce

700
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: School District at that time, So quite literally, they just

701
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: walked down the hall to his office, walked in and

702
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: told them what they knew.

703
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: Okay, everybody that's listening, if you're a detective or you're

704
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: somebody that just wants to help on a case and

705
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: you're a civilian, George is telling you how to do it.

706
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: He's telling you how you cannot have a police file.

707
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: You might, like his friend, not even be at a

708
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: ground scene, you've never seen it, but you can pair

709
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: up with people that could still do such incredible work.

710
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: And you know it's ironic.

711
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: Cheryl, as he didn't know that we knew who he was,

712
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 2: and he was still communicating on our page. I mean,

713
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: I think he had over six hundred comments total on

714
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: our page and personal dms to us I think at

715
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: either four to six hundred and something like that, so

716
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: he was on there a lot. He stopped communicating almost

717
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: precisely when we started figuring out that he was in town,

718
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: but he had no clue that we knew he was

719
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: in town. So what we think was happening is is

720
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: Mike mcneedil was putting together other parts of the case

721
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: against him, and then we were funneling, like we funneled

722
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: these people too, Mike, and I will mention this too.

723
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,399
Speaker 2: Every single thing that we did in Rebecca's case, we

724
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 2: said that information to the police, if we interviewed anybody,

725
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: if we talked to anybody, we gave them phone numbers,

726
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: private cell phone numbers for ex girlfriends. Egg here because

727
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: ex girl friend, ex wife's always a good source of

728
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 2: information in some of these cases, and so we set

729
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: all that stuff to them. We have a very clear

730
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: record of it. So Mike decides that he's gonna he

731
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: wants to interview William, Linda, and Jeremy. Now I'll say

732
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 2: this just so for clarity for your listeners. So what

733
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: happened was is William comes up that weekend to help

734
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 2: his mom and brother move back to Texas. That's the story, right.

735
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: So they go and get a couple of U hauls.

736
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: They pulled Jeremy out of school on like a random Tuesday,

737
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: and then they leave. Before they even start search parties

738
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: out looking for Rebecca.

739
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 3: They're gone.

740
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: Now the Monday that this murder allegedly happens, William initially

741
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: told police that him and his mom went and took

742
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: Jeremy to school and they went and picked him up,

743
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: and then his mom decided she wanted to go to Branson,

744
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: Missouri for some reason, and because she had never been there,

745
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: and she's moving back to Texas, and so she's closed,

746
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: and so she just wants to go, even though it's

747
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 2: about a four hour three and a half four hour drive.

748
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: So they drive it too Missouri, get some receipts. So

749
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: obviously they're establishing an alibum, I mean, clearly, and so

750
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 2: then they go they moved back to Texas. You know,

751
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 2: basically before anybody knows that Rebecca's missing, they're back in Texas.

752
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 3: Well.

753
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: The state police did ask the local police to go

754
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 2: down there and interview them, and they did check out

755
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 2: their U hauls and they did interview them during that interview.

756
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just so crazy to me, Cheryl, because

757
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 2: if I had this report, I would have honed in

758
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 2: on this guy immediately. It says in the report the

759
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: detective even says he's asking them questions and they've brought

760
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 2: Jeremy in, you know, he's fourteen. They said, was there

761
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: anything about in your cousin Casey's house is the anything

762
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 2: about surniture that's weird, and he goes all the pianola

763
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: comes off and as soon as he says it, the

764
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: officer notes in his report, he says, the boy then

765
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: turned locked eyes with his mother and never left her

766
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 2: gaze because he knew he had said something you shouldn't

767
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 2: have said.

768
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: Well, have we talked specifically about the boyfriend and Miller

769
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: was the boyfriend shocked? Did he on some level want

770
00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: to cover this up?

771
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 2: He confessed to killing her to another guy. He said

772
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 2: that he hit her in the head and that he

773
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: got mad, or that they got into a fight and

774
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 2: that he hit her in the head and then he

775
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 2: didn't know what to do. And well, I'll just tell

776
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: you this right now. William Miller is a confessed serial killer.

777
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: Like he's killed five of the women. I don't know

778
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: that Casey was involved in her murder.

779
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 3: I think he was.

780
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: I don't know, But the bare minimum I know is

781
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: that he knew what happened to her because he didn't

782
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: go home that night because he was out of establishing

783
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: an alibi. Just like William was up in Branson with

784
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: his mom and brother, Casey was out with four friends.

785
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: Because this is what I didn't tell you, Cheryl. So

786
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: he goes out with these four friends that night. At

787
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: one point he gets on his cell phone, and this

788
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 2: is in the case file, and part of it was

789
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: leaked to me years ago too, and that also pissed

790
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 2: the state police officer that I wrote about this. He

791
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: gets on one of the friend's cell phone, not his own,

792
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: talks to someone, gets off the phone and says, Rebecca's missing.

793
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: All four reports, all four guys say the same thing.

794
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: When they were interviewed by police, he said that she

795
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: was missing, and all four said that he was obsessed

796
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: with her and they couldn't understand why he wasn't literally

797
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: running out the door to find her. All four reports

798
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: say it one, two, three, four, And in two of

799
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: the four reports it says the person said that she

800
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 2: had been missing for twenty four hours, meaning Casey said

801
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 2: that she had been missing for twenty four hours. And

802
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: in one report it's crossed out, but you can still

803
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: clearly read what it says. And then in another report

804
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: it says the same thing. So I know exactly what

805
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: happened is he said that she's been missing for twenty

806
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: four hours and two of the four remembered it that way,

807
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 2: and that's why they wrote it that way. But then

808
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: the detective came in and said, well, I can't be

809
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 2: true because we think she was alive Monday morning. So

810
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: the floor is that he knew and then because he

811
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: didn't go home, and even when he went back the

812
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: next morning, like because he was going to go to

813
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: Sonic where he worked. He shows up there, but he

814
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: doesn't have his work clothes on, and his manager sends

815
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: him home to get us cloth. That's when he shows up.

816
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: And see, he lied to me. And I asked him

817
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: one time, Cheryl, because I'm interviewed, I tracked him down.

818
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: I said, so, you never went back to your house

819
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 2: on Tuesday morning before you went with the police.

820
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 3: Anybody told me, No, I.

821
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 2: Never went back because he knew then that if he

822
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: went back and didn't notice all this blood everywhere and

823
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: all her stuff. There after, he told all of her

824
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: friends she was missing the night before. See that's the key.

825
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: He told all his friends she was missing the night before.

826
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: She was missing seven or eight thirty in the morning

827
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: on Tuesday morning. How did he know she was missing

828
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: twelve hours before she was reported missing?

829
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. The whole gig comes down

830
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: to patterns. I preach this to rookies. If he and

831
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: Rebecca called each other every night to say good night,

832
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: that they weren't together, or takested each other, or however

833
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: they communicated, there's a clear pattern. If that pattern gets

834
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: broken for any reason, that should be highlighted. Why did

835
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: he not call to tell her good night when he

836
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: was spending the night with these guys. Why did they not,

837
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: you know, have some pillow talk over the phone. Why

838
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: did he not check on her to make sure she

839
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: was home safely like he did the weeks and months

840
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: and years prior. The other issue to me, he didn't

841
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 1: report her missing. But he's telling you he had knowledge

842
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: that she was missing, but he didn't call anybody, her daddy,

843
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: other friends. He didn't go look for her. So you know,

844
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 1: your girlfriend is missing, and you're just going to hang

845
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: out with these dudes and not report anything, not look

846
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: for her, do nothing.

847
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 3: That's exactly what he did.

848
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: And even the friends in their reports, like you're talking

849
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,399
Speaker 2: about patterns, they said they were surprised that he wanted

850
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 2: to go out with them because he never wanted to

851
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: go out with them.

852
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 3: He was a recluse.

853
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: He was a homebody who stayed at home, and he

854
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: never wanted to go out. And you know what else,

855
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 2: he never did during that week that she was missing.

856
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,959
Speaker 2: He never looked for her a single time.

857
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: Patterns will lead you to the truth. And I'm going

858
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: to tell you something else I've told everybody before. When

859
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: you're going through that cold case file, ninety five percent

860
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: of the time the name is in there. It's already

861
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 1: in there, They've already talked to them. So the first

862
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 1: thing any cold case investigator ought to do is pull

863
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: out every single name, and then you go back through

864
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: can I get rid of this person or not? And

865
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: don't take the word of the other investigators or detectives,

866
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: You yourself include or exclude that person.

867
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: That is exactly what Mike McNeil did. And he even

868
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: said that William Miller was the sixth person on his list.

869
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: So I guess going back to the story, and if

870
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: you want to talk about Casey, we can. I mean,

871
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 2: it's all in the case file.

872
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: I mean the.

873
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: Person that he confess to, He confessed this person multiple times.

874
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: And here's the thing, Cheryl, the person who he confessed to,

875
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: contacted Catherine Townsend first, and as soon as she got

876
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: off the phone with him, she called me and played

877
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: the audio over the phone, and she's like, do you

878
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: think this guy's telling the truth? And this is back

879
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, And I said, yeah, I know he's

880
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: telling the truth, and she goes, how would you know that?

881
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 2: And I said, because there's two things that he knew

882
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: that only the killer could know. Number One, Casey told

883
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 2: this person that she was struck on the head twice.

884
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 2: The auto Superport was not a public record at that time.

885
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: The only people who had it were doctor Gould, me,

886
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 2: I may be Danielle the sister. And again, but the

887
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: person that he confessed to, this guy named Tad, I've

888
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: never met Tad. I've never talked to Tad. Tad's never

889
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: talked to doctor Gould, He's never met him. Danielle the

890
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: sister before she passed away from brain cancer last year,

891
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 2: never talked. He had never talked to her. So how

892
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: in the world did this person know that she had

893
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: been struck twice in the head. And they also Danielle

894
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: had told me one of the reasons that RecA came

895
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: home that weekend was because she was going to end

896
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: things permanently with Casey. Well, guess what that friend knew

897
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: years after the fact. He said that Casey told him

898
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: the reason that they got into a fight was because

899
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 2: that she was mocking him because she was going to leave,

900
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: and that was the end of it.

901
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: All right, George, let's talk about the real money tree.

902
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that confession.

903
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: So one of the problems that Mike McNeil the detective

904
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: was having interviewing everybody. It was easy for him to

905
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 2: get to Casey, his brother's Corey, Chris, the father Claude

906
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: because they all lived I mean, Casey lived in the

907
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: same house up until a couple of years ago, and

908
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: he still lives on the same property where this whole

909
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: thing happened. Getting to them was easy. But getting to

910
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: William Miller was going to be He was on the

911
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: list because obviously he he had been originally interviewed, and

912
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: Mike's process was he was just going to go through

913
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: an interview every single person that had been interviewed originally

914
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: in the case. The problem was is that William was

915
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: in the Philippines, obviously, so it's gonna be hard to

916
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: get there to interview him. Now, Linda and Jeremy the

917
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: mom and brother. They lived in Cottage Grove, Oregon. At

918
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 2: this point, in October of twenty twenty, Mike had William

919
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: Miller's passport flagged. What we didn't know is that he

920
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 2: couldn't get back to the Philippines because, as everybody remembers,

921
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: in October of twenty twenty, we were still in the pandemic,

922
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: and so only nationals could go home to the Philippines.

923
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 3: So he would go out on these low rigs that

924
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 3: he worked on.

925
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 2: You know, he'd be out for twenty or thirty days whatever,

926
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: and then he'd come home for a month. Well, he

927
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 2: was having to come home to Oregon to stay with

928
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: his mom and brother because he couldn't get back to

929
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: the Philippines. Mike had his passport flagged. They figured out

930
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 2: that he was going to be in town. So Linda

931
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: calls and says, hey, you know, William's here, Jeremy's here,

932
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: I'm here. If you want to talk to all three

933
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 2: of us at the same time, why don't you just

934
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: come to Cottage Grove, Oregan on November seventh, twenty twenty,

935
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: and we'll just talk to you and get this up

936
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: with And Mike says, that's great. So he flies out there.

937
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: They sit down for you know, he's interviewing you know,

938
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 2: the mom, brother and William, and then he does something

939
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 2: very very cunny. He had asked all the other McCullough's

940
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 2: to take a polygraph, right, they all agreed, and so

941
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: they'd all taken it. Well, you know, it's a Saturday

942
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: in Cottage Grove, and so he looks away him and he goes, now,

943
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 2: if you're ever back in Arkansas, would you agree to

944
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: do like a polygraph test? And mind you, William had

945
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 2: never gone back to Arkansas since the murder. So William's like, oh, sure, sure,

946
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 2: I'll do a polygraph test. Yeah, that'd be no problem. Well,

947
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 2: what Mike had already done is he already had a polygrapher.

948
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 3: Waiting in another room.

949
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: He goes, well, maybe Cottage Grove's gone a polygraph examiner

950
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: that could do it today, and so he pretends like

951
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: he's on the phone talking to somebody. So within a

952
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 2: couple of minutes, William's trapped, like he knows he has

953
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: to take it now because he's already read to it.

954
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: So he goes in there, he takes the polygraph, He fails,

955
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: and so then Mike comes in after the polygraph examiner

956
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 2: tells him that he failed. Mike comes in and he

957
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: does something very bold. He pulls out a picture of

958
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: a washrag that was found with blood on him from

959
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: the crime scene and he goes, I got to show

960
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: you something. And he pulls out the picture and he goes,

961
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: you see this right here, we have the killers DNA

962
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: on this rag. He goes, now, we wouldn't find your

963
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 2: DNA on this rag, now, would we? And he just

964
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: kind of like shakes his head like no, and you

965
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 2: can tell he's getting really quiet. Well, then Mike pulls

966
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: out a second picture. It's the truck that william was

967
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: driving in two thousand and four, and he went and

968
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: found the actual truck. He had the Texas Rangers go

969
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,399
Speaker 2: and find this truck in South Texas and they took

970
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 2: pictures of the inside of it. And he goes, I've

971
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 2: got a problem here. We found Rebecca's DNA next to

972
00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 2: this pedal at the bottom. And he said, why would

973
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: Rebecca's DNA be there? And so Williams starts to kind

974
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 2: of make up a story, and then finally he just

975
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 2: breaks down and says that he pulled his truck in

976
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: behind the trailer of that Monday morning, he walked up

977
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: to the door, knocked on the door, Rebecca answers, he

978
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 2: comes in. He's pacing around, and this murderous rage comes

979
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: over him. The piano leg just falls on the ground

980
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 2: and he just picks it up and he hits her

981
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 2: twice in the head and then he took in neck

982
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: tie and he strangled her until she Now when he

983
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 2: gave that confession, I knew it was true, or I

984
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 2: thought it was true because of the fact that he

985
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: mentioned the strangulation. And when you look at and you

986
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: look at later crime scene photos, there are pictures of ties.

987
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: There's at least one tie there, which I actually don't

988
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 2: think he used a tie. What I think he used.

989
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: I think he actually used his hands. I think he

990
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: wanted to use a tie and he saw the tie.

991
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 2: But we've developed information after the fact, you know, we

992
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: started talking to people who had relationships with him, you know,

993
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: people who had dated him, stuff like that, and we

994
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: found out that he was into a number of fetishes.

995
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: Because when Rebecca was found, she was so badly decomposed

996
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: they couldn't determine if she'd been sexually assaulted or not.

997
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 2: And so the fact that he said he strangled her.

998
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: Her high bone was found in pieces. I was like, okay.

999
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 2: And plus he said he hit her in the head twice,

1000
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 2: which still wasn't like readily, No, it is interesting, Cheryl

1001
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 2: like one of the reasons that it was interesting listening

1002
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: to him to confess because I grew up about an

1003
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: hour from Cottage Grove, Oregon. November seventh is my birthday,

1004
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 2: and this was the first case I ever covered, and

1005
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 2: so it was really I run for me and he

1006
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 2: mentioned me my name and his confession. You talked about

1007
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: how much he hated my guts and couldn't stand me,

1008
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: and I was a joke and a cloud and all

1009
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 2: sort of stuff because I was getting and I even

1010
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: told him, you know, and to make a long story short,

1011
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 2: when I actually interviewed him face to face, he told me,

1012
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: he said, he goes, I owe you an apology for

1013
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,479
Speaker 2: all things I say, because he even texted his cousin,

1014
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 2: Casey at one points in the case file that he

1015
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 2: wanted to show up with one of my book sightings

1016
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 2: and punched me in the face. When I walked into

1017
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 2: the Wharton's office to talk to him, he said, I

1018
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: owe you an apology, and I said, no, you don't

1019
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 2: want me an apology.

1020
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: I said, you o, Abecca, apology, absolutely, one hundred percent.

1021
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: And you might be a joke at a clown and

1022
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: he might want to pudge you in the face, but

1023
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,799
Speaker 1: you ain't the one that murdered somebody, and you ain't

1024
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: the one in prison.

1025
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 3: That's true. And the thing of it is Cheryl.

1026
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 2: During his confession, he also confessed to murdering five other women,

1027
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: and so one thing we're trying to do now. And

1028
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: of course he's claiming now that he didn't kill anybody

1029
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: that you know that he's saying that his cousin did

1030
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: it and he helped him cover it up and all

1031
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: this other stuff, you know, And I don't know if

1032
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 2: that's true or not. I told him, you're going to

1033
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 2: have to provide some evidence because you've been convicted. He

1034
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 2: took a plea deal where he will only get forty

1035
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: years thirty if she's out in good time, and so

1036
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: he's in prison now. But I think it's important though

1037
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: that he did confess to these other murders. And if

1038
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 2: people want to go to our Facebook page, the twelve

1039
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: hours of his confession is on there. You can watch

1040
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: every second of it, and he gave details, Cheryl about

1041
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,840
Speaker 2: the women that he murdered. In fact, I'm sure a

1042
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: lot of your listeners are in Georgia. There's a case

1043
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: there that we're looking into that we think that he

1044
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: might have a connection to. And this was several years

1045
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: before Rebecca's case. But again, he had a pathological history

1046
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: of buying sex workers, and he said that some of

1047
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: the women that he killed were prostitutes.

1048
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 3: And so.

1049
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: You and I both know that sometimes those cases are

1050
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 2: not investigated with the thoroughness.

1051
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: They should be.

1052
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 2: So finding this finding these other victims maybe in the

1053
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 2: old a haystack, but you know, there's I think the

1054
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: FBI has got a VISCAP alert out on some potential states.

1055
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: I think Texas, Louisiana, possibly Georgia, Mississippi, and Oklahoma are

1056
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 2: some places where they're looking at some other potential victims

1057
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: of William Miller. And I can tell you this right

1058
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: now not to be too graphic or share things that

1059
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 2: we can't share at this time, but this guy has

1060
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: a history, and it's a deep history of doing some

1061
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 2: of these things. I mean, Cheryl, when he walked into

1062
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: that police department in Oregon, he had child porn on

1063
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 2: his phone.

1064
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wasn't hiding, he wasn't trying to be intimidated

1065
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: by anybody. Outstanding work. I mean again, I just want

1066
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: everybody to understand how you started, what limited tools you

1067
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: were working with, limited information, and look where you are. Outstanding,

1068
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 1: Outstanding George. Seriously, I'm going to end Zone seven the

1069
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 1: way that I always do with a quote. My best

1070
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: advice for cold case investigators is to read the investigative

1071
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: reports last. If you read them first, you're more likely

1072
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 1: to be led down the same path as the other

1073
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: investigators were on. If the body dropped a day, would

1074
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: you have access to the reports? No, So start with

1075
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: the crime scene phone goes and move forward from there.

1076
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 1: Joe jack Alone, retired Sergeant n y p D. I'm

1077
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum and this is his own set

1078
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 2: H