WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The White House Farm Murders 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.440 Thinking Sideways is not supported by the bagpiping Unicycler. Instead, 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.520 it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.600 Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking sideways to learn more 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:26.520 and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know stories 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.680 of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well. 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.960 Here there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe, 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.839 joined as always by my lovely co hosts and Steve. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.200 You know he's not talking about me when he says 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.040 lovely don't care. He was pointing at us. That was 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:53.360 a trick, Steve Stevens, the pretty one. Actually yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.360 Well so sorry. For the time being. At least we 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:01.960 still are a podcast. It talks about unsolved mystery should 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.360 transfer to cooking. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna do something else. 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.000 I thought it was we're gonna be a yoga podcast. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.000 I thought it was gonna be archery. So we have 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:10.520 a lot of work to do to figure out a 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.400 new podcast. So let's stick with what we got today 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:14.520 for the time being. There's still a few usolved mysteries 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:16.959 out there. Oh yeah, and before we go any further, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.360 I want to thank our our listener, Linda. That's Linda 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.080 with a Y for suggesting this mystery, which I thought 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.360 at the beginning was a simple, little mystery, but wow, 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:27.960 it turns out it's a lot bigger than I realized. 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.880 Uh So this week we are going to look into 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:36.759 a very very shocking mass murder. Isn't mass murder when 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:43.080 five people get killed? Yeah, it's not. It's probably some 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:44.880 of you have heard about this, and if you act 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:46.920 you live in Britain, of course you've heard about it. 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:51.040 And I'm talking about the white House Farm murders, which 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.600 is one of the most notorious murders in modern British history. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.520 I think it's safe to say. Yeah. So, depending on 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.800 who you talk to, And there's a lot of disagreement 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:02.120 about this one, either five people were murdered in cold 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.240 blood or four people were murdered and then the killer 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:09.120 committed suicide. So what's it? Good? I guess we're gonna 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:10.560 go through the whole day and then we're gonna flip 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.920 a coin and saw this thing. Yeah something like that. Yeah, 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.720 that's about how I feel about it. Yeah, well it's yeah. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.040 So our murders took place in the wee hours the 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:23.919 morning of August seven, although I guess it's it's conceivable 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.359 that it took place before midnight to so to be 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:30.600 August six, but I'm pretty sure it was the morning 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.920 of the seventh, at least one of them. At least 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.359 one of them. Yeah. Uh. The place they took the 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.040 murders took place. That was the farmhouse at the White 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:45.040 House Farm in tols and Darcy, England, which some of 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.000 you have probably not heard of. I've never heard of 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.839 it before I started reading about this thing. Yeah, I saw. 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:52.320 I looked at it on Google. It's a it's a 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.720 nice little town. It looks like it's about fifty miles 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:58.240 northeast east of London. Um. The people who on the 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.639 farmhouse were Neville in June Bamber, and they were being 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.440 visited by their adopted daughter, Sheila Capelle and her twin sons, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.200 Nicholas and Daniel. They normally lived in London. Sheila had 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.799 been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia in nineteen three and her 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:16.720 mental state was kind of up and down. She was 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.520 apparently down, yeah, kind of going downhill. Yeah. It turned 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.480 out that after the murders, a psychiatrist who had treated 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.800 Sheila's said that she told him. Of course, that didn't 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.800 come out until later, among other odd statements that she 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.919 said a lot of weird stuff to them, to her psychiatrist, 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.760 but she felt that she was capable of murdering her sons. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.280 She also also felt like she was capable of, like, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.280 I don't know, mentally directing them to I was gonna say, 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.720 murder other people. Yeah, she had delusions that she was 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.880 in direct communication with God and outso had the delusions 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.400 that she was like she and her mother and her 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.400 two kids were like infected by the devil, are possessed 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.120 by the devil. She was all over the map. Yeah. Yeah, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.600 And so you can sort to see why, um people 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:06.279 draw people jump to this particular conclusion about murder suicide. 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.040 When the parents and the kids were found shots to death, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:12.920 and Sheila was dead and from what appeared to be 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.680 too self inflicted gunshot wounds, they jumped to that conclusion 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.599 murder suicide, and then they changed their minds about a 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.440 month later. Uh, this is still really controversial. There's there's 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.080 partisans on both sides of this case. There's a there's 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:30.080 a whole you could almost call it a movement to 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.280 reopen this case and retry the case. Yeah, because of 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.719 new evidence and stuff like that, and of course the 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:41.279 police investigation was really bungled. Yeah, actually it was so bungled. 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:45.120 I read somewhere that they said that in the police 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:50.919 departments in England often call um bungling a case doing 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.840 a bamber. Yeah, it was so bungled that it has 0:04:54.920 --> 0:05:00.080 become the mark by which everybody measures case bungling. It 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.279 is epic proportions. Yeah, and it's it's really it's really 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.160 a shame because there's a lot of important evidence that 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.719 would really resolve this, just like that. Yeah, if they 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.600 had and yeah, if they if they've done it correctly, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.800 if they hadn't destroyed things. I mean, there's a whole 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:17.640 there's a list of things that we're going to go through. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.480 They could have done better. Oh yeah, yeah, if they 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.680 have they kept recordings and kept better records and yeah, 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.080 well I'm sure we'll get into this. Oh yeah, we'll 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:30.560 talk a little bit more about this. Uh yeah, because 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.320 again I think if we could get a look at 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.599 one or two key pieces of evidence, we could probably 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:38.280 solve it in about a minute probably. Yeah, more on 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.880 that later though. The Bambers, that's Nevill and June They 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.240 also had adopted son, Jeremy Bamber, who was twenty fourth 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.279 time this took place. He is currently in prison for 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.880 life for the murders for five life sentences. Yeah he has, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.279 he sees. Yeah, there are only in Britain, there are 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.880 only about twenty people who are imprisoned for life without parole. 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.880 He's one of them, the other ones. Just like serial killers. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.240 There are people out there who think that Jeremy is 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.240 a psychopath who should be locked up forever, and then 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.040 there are others who think that this thing is a 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:13.520 huge miscarriage, miscarriage of justice. So what report you said? 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.240 We read all. I'd read a little a fair amount 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.760 about actually the upbringing of these two children, Sheila and Jeremy. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:26.080 And it is very interesting, uh, that a house could 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.240 have produced at the very least, Jeremy. Jeremy has some 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:34.160 sort of disassociative something. He may not be a psychopath, 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:39.200 but he's there's some disaffected, disassociative something going on with him. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.520 And it's very interesting to me that two children can 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.640 come from the same family, one with such a dissociative 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.080 disorder and one with such severe schizophrenias. Well, yeah, I 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.679 think you know, I mean This is a giant debate 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.200 and we're not going to go too far into it, 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:57.040 but the parenting has some influence on that because June 0:06:57.160 --> 0:06:59.960 this is a pretty good case study in nurture versus nature. Yeah, 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:07.000 because June was extremely devout and impressed that upon her 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.800 children in some very strange ways to try to get 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.440 them to go along with it. So I can see 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:18.200 how one of them would kind of breakdown and I 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.120 don't know if that's the right term to use, but 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.960 mentally just kind of give up, and then the other 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:27.000 one just put up a wall and go on autopilot. Yeah, yeah, 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.800 I think. Yeah, Jeremy is not an emotional guy at all. 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.040 As I believe it was his cousin who was involved 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.080 in this whole thing to a certain extent. This cousin 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.920 said that you found out at a fairly young age, 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.160 said he was adopted, So what does that mean. That 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:42.680 means that somebody had you, gave birth to you, and 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.600 didn't want you, and they gave you away to somebody else. 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.680 And Jeremy's case was was even a little more severe 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:53.360 than Sheila's. Sheila's parents were unmarried and she was an 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:59.840 legitimate child right um. Whereas Jeremy's parents had him, said no, 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.040 we don't want him, gave him up, and then got 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:03.720 married a few years later and start a family of 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.720 their own exactly. So I think that, you know, to me, 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.840 that would be a little more of a harsh reality 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:11.760 to face of like, oh no, no, they're still together. 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.120 They just chose they didn't want you, yeah, exactly. And 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.600 then um uh and then after that the uh, the 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.520 parents sent Jeremy away to school, and which probably made 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.200 him feel even more rejected. And then he made the 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.560 mistake of confiding to a few of the school may 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.600 said he had been adopted, and so that people started 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:33.040 calling him like a bath the bastard and all that stuff. 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.760 So that was probably a mistake on his part. But anyway, 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.480 but you know, with all this rejection, I think Jeremy 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.840 just sort of shut his emotions off. I also consider 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:48.280 him to be stereotypical British man, closed, quiet, reserved, just 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.559 to a very extreme extent. Well, I know, but it's 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.840 it's it's what you it's okay, I'm not gonna say 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:56.560 this is all British Men, but this is what you 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.640 always see portrayed, stiff upper lip, and that seems to 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.000 be that he took it farther than most really far. 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.120 That's the way I see. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah anyway, Yeah, 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.720 but anyway, jeremmy was working on the farm at the time. 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.319 Of course, parents are about a hundred and seventy pounds 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:18.320 of months, and plus you got to live rent free 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:19.800 in the house that was owned by his parents that 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:21.680 was about three or three and a half miles away. 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.040 So he was he was doing okay, but not making 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:32.320 money handed for fist. It's not nothing in Yeah, it's 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.440 it's a good well, yeah, I mean free were is comfortable. Yeah, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:38.280 free were at and also he supplemented his income by 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.040 growing pot. They had like three hundred acres and so 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:46.080 he was able to find himself a little patch and pot. Yeah. 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.320 On the evening, the evening of August six, he visited 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:53.440 the family house probably you know, for dinner because because 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.520 his sister was visiting from London the moment. It's the 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.640 sense that I had is that he did that fairly often. Yeah, 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.440 well he was so close to Yeah, that's good point. Yeah, 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.960 depending on where here. He was either hunting rabbits a 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.840 little bit earlier and had his father's father's twenty two 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.000 rifle out or else. He her other versions. He heard 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.439 rabbits outside, so he got the rifle and loaded it 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.320 up because he wanted to go shoot some rabbits. Apparently 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.559 he likes shooting animals. Well, okay, okay, I know that 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.160 they said he has said that the family used a 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.960 gun to shoot rabbits on the property. What I could 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.240 never find is what was it they were growing on 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:31.760 the property. Yeah, I know, I don't know. I've never 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.600 idea Yea, I looked. I kept looking at it. There's 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.719 never any mentioned, you know, of weed farmer so and 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:41.840 none of that. So I have no idea what they 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:46.480 what they grow there? Yeah, well they grow pot and 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:50.880 they obviously have a rabbit infestation. Yeah apparently. I mean, 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.240 if you have rabbits on your property, they're pretty easy 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.160 to kill and they're pretty delicious. So well, good point, 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.920 they're prettystructive. Yeah, that's true. So it's kind of you know, 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:04.520 killing a lot of rabbits with one's done. Yeah, you're 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:10.000 welcome back to Yeah, he left the he left the rifle. 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:12.120 It was had had a scope on it in a 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:13.920 silence there. That's kind that kind of the cool thing 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.320 about Europe is it's a lot easier to get silencers, yeah, 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:24.440 also called moderators, also called suppressors. Yeah, uh rifles yo. Yeah, 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.240 we had a ten round magazine. So fast forward a 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:30.680 little bit about he left he when he left the house, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:32.520 he left it on the kitchen table, right, he didn't 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.400 put it back in the gun cabinet. Now, he left 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.680 in the table. That's important. Yeah, yeah, later on, later 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:39.959 on it wound up the somebody started to scope and 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.240 the silence are off of the rifle. We don't know 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.360 who did it or win and those the scope in 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:46.440 the silence are wound up back in the young closet. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.320 Can I ask why you need a silencer or a 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:52.840 suppressor to hunt rabbits. I don't think you need it, 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.120 but I think if you're trying to kill more than 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.840 one at a time, you probably don't want the sound 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.240 of the gun to be really loud and care the 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.920 rest of the rabbits off if you're hunting with the scope, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.680 though they're at a distance, and twenty two aren't that 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.439 loud to begin with quiet either though. Yeah. That that 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.600 I say about suppressors is that you can shoot without 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.880 having to put on put in ear plugs or ear 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.160 muffs or anything like that. So that's kind of cool, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.400 especially if you've got to listen for their little rabbit sounds, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:27.840 you know, to hunt them, and it's a little rabbit rabbits, 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.000 rabbit calls, yeah, the sounds of eggs and eggs being 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.559 laid by the rabbits, that kind of thing. Yeah, alright, 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.760 I just I didn't see the need for the suppressor. 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.680 Apparently suppressors are fairly popular in Europe just because it's 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.680 it's it's pleasant, it reduces noise. That I understand it. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.920 I've just suppressed. It might have been also that perhaps, uh, 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.080 you know, they did it out of consideration to the neighbors. 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.360 But and and they did it because they just did 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.760 again didn't want to wear ear plugs. Well, it seems 0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.360 to safe for the neighbors. I don't really see that 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.080 that being am because when I looked it up on 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.240 the map, the nearest neighbors like a half mile away, 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:06.800 so it's not like they're right next door, but they 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:08.640 might be on the edge of their property when they're 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:13.800 shooting rabbits walking around possibility mooching. I heard recently that's 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.760 the term you can use for walking around. I did 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.280 not know that, Okay, this is this. This next thing 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.440 is a little bit contested, and it's either at three 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.160 twenty six or three thirty six in the morning on 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:30.400 August seven, Jeremy called police to pass along a message 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.440 that he'd gotten from his father. His father had called him, 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.520 he said, from the farmhouse, saying that Sheila has had 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.120 gone berserk. That was his words, and that showed up 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.360 in the police report too, had gone berserk and had 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:43.600 the gun. He also apparently at that point called his 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.720 girlfriend in London for some reason, and then he headed 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.800 over to meet he had talked to the police. The 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.439 police told him to meet them over at the farmhouse, 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.599 so he went over there and the police. One of 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:56.440 the police cars passed him on the way. They said 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.439 he was driving kind of unusually slowly. They thought he 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.480 was because apparently, as it turns out, he usually was 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.400 kind of a fast driver. So he was driving slowly 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.800 through in the morning, and the guy, yeah, I wondering 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.440 if he wasn't a little loaded. Also, you can just 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:16.920 attribute that to if he's telling the truth, being nervous 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.960 and afraid of what you're gonna find, but still having 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.560 to go. I have to go fast, exactly want the 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:25.440 cops to get there first. Well exactly, That's what I 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.400 say is he definitely wanted the cops to get there first. Yeah, 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.160 you can't really blame him. Uh yeah, Actually, no matter 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.920 how this shook out, he wanted the cops there first, 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.120 no matter who's guilty. Yeah, which makes sense to me 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.120 on all. I don't think that it's I don't think 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.520 it proves or disproves. I don't. I don't think it 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.880 does either. Really, I don't think it's suspicious anyway. The 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.360 police set a car along about four third. I'm I'm 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.800 getting out of kind of getting out of sequence here. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.320 But he had Jeremy had reported that his father had 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.840 called him and said all that stuff about Sheila and 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.280 then he and then the phone just sort of cut off. 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:03.440 That's what he said. Although when they found when they 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:05.440 went into the house, they found the phone off the hook. 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.600 About four thirty am, a British telecom phone operator checked 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.840 check the farm phone line and found that it was 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.040 off the hook. But all she could hear was a 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:19.600 dog barking and nothing else. So that's at four thirty am. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.320 That's what happened. What was there? A dog? Yeah, they 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.680 had a little, a little small dog and what happened 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:28.440 to the dog? I'm not sure. That's literally the only 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.640 thing I've heard about the dog. The dog was fine, 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:35.280 dogs running around the house barking. Yeah, dog was unhurt. Okay, yeah, 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:36.840 that's good. I'm sure they found a home for it. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.040 They had an extended family. But will be more about 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.480 the dog later. This is kind of a This might 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.080 just be one of those dogs, the dog that didn't 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:50.520 bark mystery. Maybe. Yeah, So at that point, Jeremy was 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.360 kind of urging the cops to go into the house 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.240 so that they didn't want to because they were afraid 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.360 of getting shot, because he had actually they had made 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.040 an inventory of the guns that were in the house, 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.760 and he also made a drawing in the house so 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.520 show him kind of where everybody would be sleeping, also 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:06.880 pointing out some spots where Sheila, if she was still 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.400 alive and armed, might be hiding and could potentially ambush 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.800 them from. And he also told them that she knew 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.520 her way around a gun, didn't she didn't? He Yeah, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.720 I mean, she wasn't an expert, but she said. He 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.280 said that they had done shooting and she used again 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:24.320 and yeah, I pick it up a rifle and pulling 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.240 the triggers not too complicated. Well, I don't know. I 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.960 would say, like I've used a gun before, but I 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.040 don't know that, Like, I don't know that I could 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:37.200 actually hit. Something about this case, though, is that whoever 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.400 did the shooting it was close it was it was 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.280 it was extremely close range. There was no skill involved. 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:45.760 I just mean, like if a police officer was like 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.520 rushing me, I don't know that i'd be able to 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.240 be like, yes, this is nothing call of duty. You 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:53.280 know you're done. Yeah, this isn't. This isn't there is 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.680 no fallout or anything. Should we not do that again? 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.720 I think that portal, I know, yeah, but in this 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.600 in this case, so the I think the longest distance 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.679 was like two ft yeah right, yeah, so yeah, no 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.240 skill needed. Yeah yeah. Because the cops were worried about 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.359 getting shot, they waited for what the equivalent of a 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.280 swat team, which apparently it's called a tactical firearms group, 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.640 and those guys showed up about five uh, and everybody 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.720 decided to wait until daylight to go into the house. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:29.160 Is everybody else consider this timeline just screwy cops showing 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.560 a three thirty swat team shows up at five. We 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:40.000 have had no contact with the inside, but we'll get away. 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.840 Yeah the hell, I mean, I guess, in fairness, you're 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:47.520 not hearing shot. It's not active shot happening. I guess 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.320 on the one hand, you think, okay, somebody could be 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.200 bleeding out on the floor, right, they could be dying there, 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:58.120 But there's also there's not additional violence happening. It's it's 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.520 a stable situation in there, whatever it is. If we 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.120 go in without the support we need, it could quickly 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.080 become destable. And it wasn't like they have the gear 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.879 they have now, and they didn't know, you know, so 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.679 once the SWAT team showed up, they probably were like, 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.399 well we could or you know, the sun's gonna be 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.280 up pretty soon, so we could just do it. Then 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.919 we'll wait another hour and a half. Yeah, yeah, no, 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.440 I agree. It seems insane to me, but from the hand, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.760 but against now that I think about it, CNN shows 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.680 stand us for seven hours before the cops go in, 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.560 So I don't know why I think this is so unusual. Yeah. Yeah, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:37.639 maybe maybe the cops were thinking, hey, you know, there 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.240 could be somebody in there with the gun, or maybe 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:40.960 the guy calmed her down and got the gun away 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:43.679 from where they all went back to bed. Maybe I 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:50.639 don't know. Ye, yes, the morning paper here. Yeah, the 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.000 house was dark, by the way, and uh so, yeah, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.120 maybe they're gonna wait till the light came on. They 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.639 see somebody move around in Yes, one of the cops 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.120 I think, said he saw, and I also, Bamber said, 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.200 Jeremy Bamber said he saw I saw somebody in the 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.159 second floor window. But but then another cop said, you know, 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.119 we were we just sort of moved side to side, 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.720 and it looked like it was really just an illusion 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.960 of like the reflection of some moonlight, and so that's 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.679 not not so No, nobody really knows exactly when the 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:19.760 last shots were fired. They also said they saw the 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.480 body of a woman in the kitchen. There was that too. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.640 Somebody said the body of a woman, but it turned 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.440 out to be the body of Neville. We're going yeah, 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.280 although I heard one report that somebody saw his body 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.720 and the body of a woman, yeah, which is intriguing. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:36.680 and then we'll talk more about that in a little 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.679 bit later. But uh so, yeah, And in the meantime, 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.040 they were they were asking Jeremy questions like whether she 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:45.520 really might have gone nuts with the gun and if 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.719 she was really truly dangerous and he according to him, 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.199 he replied, quote, I don't I don't really know. She 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:56.280 is an utter. She's been having treatment unquote. And well 0:19:56.840 --> 0:20:00.359 that's insensitive, but he said it. I didn't say that, No, 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:05.000 I mean, truly, he that's a very simple thing about 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.240 your family members, that you'll say she's crazy. I don't know. Yes, 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.159 I would say that about a lot of my family, 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.959 except that you can't see they're getting the treatment. I mean, 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.520 that's if you tag that on, it becomes a completely 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.639 different statement. So I can see why they would be 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.720 a little hesitant. Yeah. Yeah, So eventually they made up 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.800 their minds, and at seven thirty four, they took a 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.640 sledgehammer to the rear door of the house and smashed 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.520 it open and went inside. They found Neville dead on 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.679 the kitchen floor, with seven bullet wounds in him, a 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.360 lot of blood and also he was out. Yeah, I'm 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.119 sure there's blood inside him too, but and he he 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:45.720 also had been beaten pretty harshly around the head. His 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.240 had black eyes and broken jaw. Yeah. So, and there 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:54.760 was some furniture overturn looked like they had been a struggle. Yeah. Uh, 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.760 they went upstairs. They found June dead in the master bedroom. 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.760 Also they found she though, also in the master bedroom, 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.320 lying at her back with the rifle laying on top 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.120 of her, two bullet holes in her in her chin, 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:11.200 underneath her jaw, apparently a suicide. And also her two 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.440 twin sons were both dead in their beds. In their beds, 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.320 they've been apparently shot in their sleep. Yeah, one had 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.200 five bullet holes in them and the other one had three. 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:21.800 They had cops go back outside and they talked to 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.560 Jeremy Bamber and informed that his entire family is dead 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:30.000 and apparently, uh, he kind of lost it. Well, yeah, 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:31.800 I think he was a little shocked. He cried, He 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:34.880 even maybe vomited a little bit. Yeah. Everything I've read, 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:38.960