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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't you never know stories
Speaker 1: of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well.
Speaker 1: Here there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe,
Speaker 1: joined as always by my lovely co hosts and Steve.
Speaker 1: You know he's not talking about me when he says
Speaker 1: lovely don't care. He was pointing at us. That was
Speaker 1: a trick, Steve Stevens, the pretty one. Actually yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Well so sorry. For the time being. At least we
Speaker 1: still are a podcast. It talks about unsolved mystery should
Speaker 1: transfer to cooking. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna do something else.
Speaker 1: I thought it was we're gonna be a yoga podcast.
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be archery. So we have
Speaker 1: a lot of work to do to figure out a
Speaker 1: new podcast. So let's stick with what we got today
Speaker 1: for the time being. There's still a few usolved mysteries
Speaker 1: out there. Oh yeah, and before we go any further,
Speaker 1: I want to thank our our listener, Linda. That's Linda
Speaker 1: with a Y for suggesting this mystery, which I thought
Speaker 1: at the beginning was a simple, little mystery, but wow,
Speaker 1: it turns out it's a lot bigger than I realized.
Speaker 1: Uh So this week we are going to look into
Speaker 1: a very very shocking mass murder. Isn't mass murder when
Speaker 1: five people get killed? Yeah, it's not. It's probably some
Speaker 1: of you have heard about this, and if you act
Speaker 1: you live in Britain, of course you've heard about it.
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about the white House Farm murders, which
Speaker 1: is one of the most notorious murders in modern British history.
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say. Yeah. So, depending on
Speaker 1: who you talk to, And there's a lot of disagreement
Speaker 1: about this one, either five people were murdered in cold
Speaker 1: blood or four people were murdered and then the killer
Speaker 1: committed suicide. So what's it? Good? I guess we're gonna
Speaker 1: go through the whole day and then we're gonna flip
Speaker 1: a coin and saw this thing. Yeah something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's about how I feel about it. Yeah, well it's yeah.
Speaker 1: So our murders took place in the wee hours the
Speaker 1: morning of August seven, although I guess it's it's conceivable
Speaker 1: that it took place before midnight to so to be
Speaker 1: August six, but I'm pretty sure it was the morning
Speaker 1: of the seventh, at least one of them. At least
Speaker 1: one of them. Yeah. Uh. The place they took the
Speaker 1: murders took place. That was the farmhouse at the White
Speaker 1: House Farm in tols and Darcy, England, which some of
Speaker 1: you have probably not heard of. I've never heard of
Speaker 1: it before I started reading about this thing. Yeah, I saw.
Speaker 1: I looked at it on Google. It's a it's a
Speaker 1: nice little town. It looks like it's about fifty miles
Speaker 1: northeast east of London. Um. The people who on the
Speaker 1: farmhouse were Neville in June Bamber, and they were being
Speaker 1: visited by their adopted daughter, Sheila Capelle and her twin sons,
Speaker 1: Nicholas and Daniel. They normally lived in London. Sheila had
Speaker 1: been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia in nineteen three and her
Speaker 1: mental state was kind of up and down. She was
Speaker 1: apparently down, yeah, kind of going downhill. Yeah. It turned
Speaker 1: out that after the murders, a psychiatrist who had treated
Speaker 1: Sheila's said that she told him. Of course, that didn't
Speaker 1: come out until later, among other odd statements that she
Speaker 1: said a lot of weird stuff to them, to her psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: but she felt that she was capable of murdering her sons.
Speaker 1: She also also felt like she was capable of, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, mentally directing them to I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: murder other people. Yeah, she had delusions that she was
Speaker 1: in direct communication with God and outso had the delusions
Speaker 1: that she was like she and her mother and her
Speaker 1: two kids were like infected by the devil, are possessed
Speaker 1: by the devil. She was all over the map. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so you can sort to see why, um people
Speaker 1: draw people jump to this particular conclusion about murder suicide.
Speaker 1: When the parents and the kids were found shots to death,
Speaker 1: and Sheila was dead and from what appeared to be
Speaker 1: too self inflicted gunshot wounds, they jumped to that conclusion
Speaker 1: murder suicide, and then they changed their minds about a
Speaker 1: month later. Uh, this is still really controversial. There's there's
Speaker 1: partisans on both sides of this case. There's a there's
Speaker 1: a whole you could almost call it a movement to
Speaker 1: reopen this case and retry the case. Yeah, because of
Speaker 1: new evidence and stuff like that, and of course the
Speaker 1: police investigation was really bungled. Yeah, actually it was so bungled.
Speaker 1: I read somewhere that they said that in the police
Speaker 1: departments in England often call um bungling a case doing
Speaker 1: a bamber. Yeah, it was so bungled that it has
Speaker 1: become the mark by which everybody measures case bungling. It
Speaker 1: is epic proportions. Yeah, and it's it's really it's really
Speaker 1: a shame because there's a lot of important evidence that
Speaker 1: would really resolve this, just like that. Yeah, if they
Speaker 1: had and yeah, if they if they've done it correctly,
Speaker 1: if they hadn't destroyed things. I mean, there's a whole
Speaker 1: there's a list of things that we're going to go through.
Speaker 1: They could have done better. Oh yeah, yeah, if they
Speaker 1: have they kept recordings and kept better records and yeah,
Speaker 1: well I'm sure we'll get into this. Oh yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about this. Uh yeah, because
Speaker 1: again I think if we could get a look at
Speaker 1: one or two key pieces of evidence, we could probably
Speaker 1: solve it in about a minute probably. Yeah, more on
Speaker 1: that later though. The Bambers, that's Nevill and June They
Speaker 1: also had adopted son, Jeremy Bamber, who was twenty fourth
Speaker 1: time this took place. He is currently in prison for
Speaker 1: life for the murders for five life sentences. Yeah he has,
Speaker 1: he sees. Yeah, there are only in Britain, there are
Speaker 1: only about twenty people who are imprisoned for life without parole.
Speaker 1: He's one of them, the other ones. Just like serial killers.
Speaker 1: There are people out there who think that Jeremy is
Speaker 1: a psychopath who should be locked up forever, and then
Speaker 1: there are others who think that this thing is a
Speaker 1: huge miscarriage, miscarriage of justice. So what report you said?
Speaker 1: We read all. I'd read a little a fair amount
Speaker 1: about actually the upbringing of these two children, Sheila and Jeremy.
Speaker 1: And it is very interesting, uh, that a house could
Speaker 1: have produced at the very least, Jeremy. Jeremy has some
Speaker 1: sort of disassociative something. He may not be a psychopath,
Speaker 1: but he's there's some disaffected, disassociative something going on with him.
Speaker 1: And it's very interesting to me that two children can
Speaker 1: come from the same family, one with such a dissociative
Speaker 1: disorder and one with such severe schizophrenias. Well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think you know, I mean This is a giant debate
Speaker 1: and we're not going to go too far into it,
Speaker 1: but the parenting has some influence on that because June
Speaker 1: this is a pretty good case study in nurture versus nature. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because June was extremely devout and impressed that upon her
Speaker 1: children in some very strange ways to try to get
Speaker 1: them to go along with it. So I can see
Speaker 1: how one of them would kind of breakdown and I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's the right term to use, but
Speaker 1: mentally just kind of give up, and then the other
Speaker 1: one just put up a wall and go on autopilot. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, Jeremy is not an emotional guy at all.
Speaker 1: As I believe it was his cousin who was involved
Speaker 1: in this whole thing to a certain extent. This cousin
Speaker 1: said that you found out at a fairly young age,
Speaker 1: said he was adopted, So what does that mean. That
Speaker 1: means that somebody had you, gave birth to you, and
Speaker 1: didn't want you, and they gave you away to somebody else.
Speaker 1: And Jeremy's case was was even a little more severe
Speaker 1: than Sheila's. Sheila's parents were unmarried and she was an
Speaker 1: legitimate child right um. Whereas Jeremy's parents had him, said no,
Speaker 1: we don't want him, gave him up, and then got
Speaker 1: married a few years later and start a family of
Speaker 1: their own exactly. So I think that, you know, to me,
Speaker 1: that would be a little more of a harsh reality
Speaker 1: to face of like, oh no, no, they're still together.
Speaker 1: They just chose they didn't want you, yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 1: then um uh and then after that the uh, the
Speaker 1: parents sent Jeremy away to school, and which probably made
Speaker 1: him feel even more rejected. And then he made the
Speaker 1: mistake of confiding to a few of the school may
Speaker 1: said he had been adopted, and so that people started
Speaker 1: calling him like a bath the bastard and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: So that was probably a mistake on his part. But anyway,
Speaker 1: but you know, with all this rejection, I think Jeremy
Speaker 1: just sort of shut his emotions off. I also consider
Speaker 1: him to be stereotypical British man, closed, quiet, reserved, just
Speaker 1: to a very extreme extent. Well, I know, but it's
Speaker 1: it's it's what you it's okay, I'm not gonna say
Speaker 1: this is all British Men, but this is what you
Speaker 1: always see portrayed, stiff upper lip, and that seems to
Speaker 1: be that he took it farther than most really far.
Speaker 1: That's the way I see. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but anyway, jeremmy was working on the farm at the time.
Speaker 1: Of course, parents are about a hundred and seventy pounds
Speaker 1: of months, and plus you got to live rent free
Speaker 1: in the house that was owned by his parents that
Speaker 1: was about three or three and a half miles away.
Speaker 1: So he was he was doing okay, but not making
Speaker 1: money handed for fist. It's not nothing in Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's a good well, yeah, I mean free were is comfortable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: free were at and also he supplemented his income by
Speaker 1: growing pot. They had like three hundred acres and so
Speaker 1: he was able to find himself a little patch and pot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: On the evening, the evening of August six, he visited
Speaker 1: the family house probably you know, for dinner because because
Speaker 1: his sister was visiting from London the moment. It's the
Speaker 1: sense that I had is that he did that fairly often. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well he was so close to Yeah, that's good point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: depending on where here. He was either hunting rabbits a
Speaker 1: little bit earlier and had his father's father's twenty two
Speaker 1: rifle out or else. He her other versions. He heard
Speaker 1: rabbits outside, so he got the rifle and loaded it
Speaker 1: up because he wanted to go shoot some rabbits. Apparently
Speaker 1: he likes shooting animals. Well, okay, okay, I know that
Speaker 1: they said he has said that the family used a
Speaker 1: gun to shoot rabbits on the property. What I could
Speaker 1: never find is what was it they were growing on
Speaker 1: the property. Yeah, I know, I don't know. I've never
Speaker 1: idea Yea, I looked. I kept looking at it. There's
Speaker 1: never any mentioned, you know, of weed farmer so and
Speaker 1: none of that. So I have no idea what they
Speaker 1: what they grow there? Yeah, well they grow pot and
Speaker 1: they obviously have a rabbit infestation. Yeah apparently. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you have rabbits on your property, they're pretty easy
Speaker 1: to kill and they're pretty delicious. So well, good point,
Speaker 1: they're prettystructive. Yeah, that's true. So it's kind of you know,
Speaker 1: killing a lot of rabbits with one's done. Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: welcome back to Yeah, he left the he left the rifle.
Speaker 1: It was had had a scope on it in a
Speaker 1: silence there. That's kind that kind of the cool thing
Speaker 1: about Europe is it's a lot easier to get silencers, yeah,
Speaker 1: also called moderators, also called suppressors. Yeah, uh rifles yo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had a ten round magazine. So fast forward a
Speaker 1: little bit about he left he when he left the house,
Speaker 1: he left it on the kitchen table, right, he didn't
Speaker 1: put it back in the gun cabinet. Now, he left
Speaker 1: in the table. That's important. Yeah, yeah, later on, later
Speaker 1: on it wound up the somebody started to scope and
Speaker 1: the silence are off of the rifle. We don't know
Speaker 1: who did it or win and those the scope in
Speaker 1: the silence are wound up back in the young closet.
Speaker 1: Can I ask why you need a silencer or a
Speaker 1: suppressor to hunt rabbits. I don't think you need it,
Speaker 1: but I think if you're trying to kill more than
Speaker 1: one at a time, you probably don't want the sound
Speaker 1: of the gun to be really loud and care the
Speaker 1: rest of the rabbits off if you're hunting with the scope,
Speaker 1: though they're at a distance, and twenty two aren't that
Speaker 1: loud to begin with quiet either though. Yeah. That that
Speaker 1: I say about suppressors is that you can shoot without
Speaker 1: having to put on put in ear plugs or ear
Speaker 1: muffs or anything like that. So that's kind of cool,
Speaker 1: especially if you've got to listen for their little rabbit sounds,
Speaker 1: you know, to hunt them, and it's a little rabbit rabbits,
Speaker 1: rabbit calls, yeah, the sounds of eggs and eggs being
Speaker 1: laid by the rabbits, that kind of thing. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: I just I didn't see the need for the suppressor.
Speaker 1: Apparently suppressors are fairly popular in Europe just because it's
Speaker 1: it's it's pleasant, it reduces noise. That I understand it.
Speaker 1: I've just suppressed. It might have been also that perhaps, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, they did it out of consideration to the neighbors.
Speaker 1: But and and they did it because they just did
Speaker 1: again didn't want to wear ear plugs. Well, it seems
Speaker 1: to safe for the neighbors. I don't really see that
Speaker 1: that being am because when I looked it up on
Speaker 1: the map, the nearest neighbors like a half mile away,
Speaker 1: so it's not like they're right next door, but they
Speaker 1: might be on the edge of their property when they're
Speaker 1: shooting rabbits walking around possibility mooching. I heard recently that's
Speaker 1: the term you can use for walking around. I did
Speaker 1: not know that, Okay, this is this. This next thing
Speaker 1: is a little bit contested, and it's either at three
Speaker 1: twenty six or three thirty six in the morning on
Speaker 1: August seven, Jeremy called police to pass along a message
Speaker 1: that he'd gotten from his father. His father had called him,
Speaker 1: he said, from the farmhouse, saying that Sheila has had
Speaker 1: gone berserk. That was his words, and that showed up
Speaker 1: in the police report too, had gone berserk and had
Speaker 1: the gun. He also apparently at that point called his
Speaker 1: girlfriend in London for some reason, and then he headed
Speaker 1: over to meet he had talked to the police. The
Speaker 1: police told him to meet them over at the farmhouse,
Speaker 1: so he went over there and the police. One of
Speaker 1: the police cars passed him on the way. They said
Speaker 1: he was driving kind of unusually slowly. They thought he
Speaker 1: was because apparently, as it turns out, he usually was
Speaker 1: kind of a fast driver. So he was driving slowly
Speaker 1: through in the morning, and the guy, yeah, I wondering
Speaker 1: if he wasn't a little loaded. Also, you can just
Speaker 1: attribute that to if he's telling the truth, being nervous
Speaker 1: and afraid of what you're gonna find, but still having
Speaker 1: to go. I have to go fast, exactly want the
Speaker 1: cops to get there first. Well exactly, That's what I
Speaker 1: say is he definitely wanted the cops to get there first. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't really blame him. Uh yeah, Actually, no matter
Speaker 1: how this shook out, he wanted the cops there first,
Speaker 1: no matter who's guilty. Yeah, which makes sense to me
Speaker 1: on all. I don't think that it's I don't think
Speaker 1: it proves or disproves. I don't. I don't think it
Speaker 1: does either. Really, I don't think it's suspicious anyway. The
Speaker 1: police set a car along about four third. I'm I'm
Speaker 1: getting out of kind of getting out of sequence here.
Speaker 1: But he had Jeremy had reported that his father had
Speaker 1: called him and said all that stuff about Sheila and
Speaker 1: then he and then the phone just sort of cut off.
Speaker 1: That's what he said. Although when they found when they
Speaker 1: went into the house, they found the phone off the hook.
Speaker 1: About four thirty am, a British telecom phone operator checked
Speaker 1: check the farm phone line and found that it was
Speaker 1: off the hook. But all she could hear was a
Speaker 1: dog barking and nothing else. So that's at four thirty am.
Speaker 1: That's what happened. What was there? A dog? Yeah, they
Speaker 1: had a little, a little small dog and what happened
Speaker 1: to the dog? I'm not sure. That's literally the only
Speaker 1: thing I've heard about the dog. The dog was fine,
Speaker 1: dogs running around the house barking. Yeah, dog was unhurt. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good. I'm sure they found a home for it.
Speaker 1: They had an extended family. But will be more about
Speaker 1: the dog later. This is kind of a This might
Speaker 1: just be one of those dogs, the dog that didn't
Speaker 1: bark mystery. Maybe. Yeah, So at that point, Jeremy was
Speaker 1: kind of urging the cops to go into the house
Speaker 1: so that they didn't want to because they were afraid
Speaker 1: of getting shot, because he had actually they had made
Speaker 1: an inventory of the guns that were in the house,
Speaker 1: and he also made a drawing in the house so
Speaker 1: show him kind of where everybody would be sleeping, also
Speaker 1: pointing out some spots where Sheila, if she was still
Speaker 1: alive and armed, might be hiding and could potentially ambush
Speaker 1: them from. And he also told them that she knew
Speaker 1: her way around a gun, didn't she didn't? He Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, she wasn't an expert, but she said. He
Speaker 1: said that they had done shooting and she used again
Speaker 1: and yeah, I pick it up a rifle and pulling
Speaker 1: the triggers not too complicated. Well, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: would say, like I've used a gun before, but I
Speaker 1: don't know that, Like, I don't know that I could
Speaker 1: actually hit. Something about this case, though, is that whoever
Speaker 1: did the shooting it was close it was it was
Speaker 1: it was extremely close range. There was no skill involved.
Speaker 1: I just mean, like if a police officer was like
Speaker 1: rushing me, I don't know that i'd be able to
Speaker 1: be like, yes, this is nothing call of duty. You
Speaker 1: know you're done. Yeah, this isn't. This isn't there is
Speaker 1: no fallout or anything. Should we not do that again?
Speaker 1: I think that portal, I know, yeah, but in this
Speaker 1: in this case, so the I think the longest distance
Speaker 1: was like two ft yeah right, yeah, so yeah, no
Speaker 1: skill needed. Yeah yeah. Because the cops were worried about
Speaker 1: getting shot, they waited for what the equivalent of a
Speaker 1: swat team, which apparently it's called a tactical firearms group,
Speaker 1: and those guys showed up about five uh, and everybody
Speaker 1: decided to wait until daylight to go into the house.
Speaker 1: Is everybody else consider this timeline just screwy cops showing
Speaker 1: a three thirty swat team shows up at five. We
Speaker 1: have had no contact with the inside, but we'll get away.
Speaker 1: Yeah the hell, I mean, I guess, in fairness, you're
Speaker 1: not hearing shot. It's not active shot happening. I guess
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you think, okay, somebody could be
Speaker 1: bleeding out on the floor, right, they could be dying there,
Speaker 1: But there's also there's not additional violence happening. It's it's
Speaker 1: a stable situation in there, whatever it is. If we
Speaker 1: go in without the support we need, it could quickly
Speaker 1: become destable. And it wasn't like they have the gear
Speaker 1: they have now, and they didn't know, you know, so
Speaker 1: once the SWAT team showed up, they probably were like,
Speaker 1: well we could or you know, the sun's gonna be
Speaker 1: up pretty soon, so we could just do it. Then
Speaker 1: we'll wait another hour and a half. Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I agree. It seems insane to me, but from the hand,
Speaker 1: but against now that I think about it, CNN shows
Speaker 1: stand us for seven hours before the cops go in,
Speaker 1: So I don't know why I think this is so unusual. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the cops were thinking, hey, you know, there
Speaker 1: could be somebody in there with the gun, or maybe
Speaker 1: the guy calmed her down and got the gun away
Speaker 1: from where they all went back to bed. Maybe I
Speaker 1: don't know. Ye, yes, the morning paper here. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: house was dark, by the way, and uh so, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe they're gonna wait till the light came on. They
Speaker 1: see somebody move around in Yes, one of the cops
Speaker 1: I think, said he saw, and I also, Bamber said,
Speaker 1: Jeremy Bamber said he saw I saw somebody in the
Speaker 1: second floor window. But but then another cop said, you know,
Speaker 1: we were we just sort of moved side to side,
Speaker 1: and it looked like it was really just an illusion
Speaker 1: of like the reflection of some moonlight, and so that's
Speaker 1: not not so No, nobody really knows exactly when the
Speaker 1: last shots were fired. They also said they saw the
Speaker 1: body of a woman in the kitchen. There was that too.
Speaker 1: Somebody said the body of a woman, but it turned
Speaker 1: out to be the body of Neville. We're going yeah,
Speaker 1: although I heard one report that somebody saw his body
Speaker 1: and the body of a woman, yeah, which is intriguing. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then we'll talk more about that in a little
Speaker 1: bit later. But uh so, yeah, And in the meantime,
Speaker 1: they were they were asking Jeremy questions like whether she
Speaker 1: really might have gone nuts with the gun and if
Speaker 1: she was really truly dangerous and he according to him,
Speaker 1: he replied, quote, I don't I don't really know. She
Speaker 1: is an utter. She's been having treatment unquote. And well
Speaker 1: that's insensitive, but he said it. I didn't say that, No,
Speaker 1: I mean, truly, he that's a very simple thing about
Speaker 1: your family members, that you'll say she's crazy. I don't know. Yes,
Speaker 1: I would say that about a lot of my family,
Speaker 1: except that you can't see they're getting the treatment. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's if you tag that on, it becomes a completely
Speaker 1: different statement. So I can see why they would be
Speaker 1: a little hesitant. Yeah. Yeah, So eventually they made up
Speaker 1: their minds, and at seven thirty four, they took a
Speaker 1: sledgehammer to the rear door of the house and smashed
Speaker 1: it open and went inside. They found Neville dead on
Speaker 1: the kitchen floor, with seven bullet wounds in him, a
Speaker 1: lot of blood and also he was out. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's blood inside him too, but and he he
Speaker 1: also had been beaten pretty harshly around the head. His
Speaker 1: had black eyes and broken jaw. Yeah. So, and there
Speaker 1: was some furniture overturn looked like they had been a struggle. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: they went upstairs. They found June dead in the master bedroom.
Speaker 1: Also they found she though, also in the master bedroom,
Speaker 1: lying at her back with the rifle laying on top
Speaker 1: of her, two bullet holes in her in her chin,
Speaker 1: underneath her jaw, apparently a suicide. And also her two
Speaker 1: twin sons were both dead in their beds. In their beds,
Speaker 1: they've been apparently shot in their sleep. Yeah, one had
Speaker 1: five bullet holes in them and the other one had three.
Speaker 1: They had cops go back outside and they talked to
Speaker 1: Jeremy Bamber and informed that his entire family is dead
Speaker 1: and apparently, uh, he kind of lost it. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he was a little shocked. He cried, He
Speaker 1: even maybe vomited a little bit. Yeah. Everything I've read,
Speaker 1: everything I've read says and he appeared to vomit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's literally how they phreeze it on everything. So I
Speaker 1: don't actually have a clear sense of if somebody said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's dry heaving over in the corner, or he was
Speaker 1: dry heaving, or walk around the side of a car
Speaker 1: and bent over like he was gonna lose his stomach,
Speaker 1: and somebody saw it. That's that's not unusual. I know
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, she she lost her little dog
Speaker 1: that she loved tremendously. And once he was was showing
Speaker 1: the little corpse of her little dog, she did that.
Speaker 1: She's like started crying, she and she then she threw
Speaker 1: up and then she passed out. Yeah yeah, yeah, so yeah. Anyway, Um,
Speaker 1: let's go back to the crime scene. So Neville Bamber
Speaker 1: was shot eight times, and they concluded that he was
Speaker 1: shot four times upstairs in the bedroom. I think that
Speaker 1: this is I'm like like blood spatter and also just
Speaker 1: it was it was cartridges. The blood spatter was one
Speaker 1: of the key things. But I think you're right there,
Speaker 1: the cartridge probably yeah, that the mpty shell case things
Speaker 1: he got downstairs. And it's unclear exactly when he made
Speaker 1: the phone call, if he made it at this point
Speaker 1: or I think more likely he made his phone call
Speaker 1: before the shooting started, but we don't know now. I
Speaker 1: say that because if you indeed made that phone call,
Speaker 1: the phone didn't have any blood on it, that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He also probably couldn't have talked if he had been
Speaker 1: because when he got shot, I'm one of the shots.
Speaker 1: If I remember the Winter's jaw. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: if they know which one which which shot was where. Well,
Speaker 1: I think they do know which ones were where, partially
Speaker 1: because of the blood spatter. I wanted to say splatter,
Speaker 1: but I think they have something. That's why I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure they had figured out that he had the one
Speaker 1: that had gone through his jaw had gone gone in
Speaker 1: when he was upstairs, so he couldn't have really talked
Speaker 1: on the phone. Yeah. Well, and the other thing unintelligible.
Speaker 1: The other thing too, is when you got somebody who's
Speaker 1: trying to kill you, the last thing you do is
Speaker 1: go make a phone call. You go to your gun
Speaker 1: closet and get a gun out. And so that's probably
Speaker 1: what he had it downstairs to do, That's what I'm guessing,
Speaker 1: and not and not to make the phone call. So
Speaker 1: I think he probably made the phone call before the
Speaker 1: shooting started. If you made the phone call, there's that's controversial.
Speaker 1: He was, so he made his lay downstairs. There was
Speaker 1: a struggle. It appears that there was damage to the rifle.
Speaker 1: So it appears that somebody but stroked to him the
Speaker 1: headbutted with the with the rifle, and then it probably
Speaker 1: bludging him into unconsciousness. So I'm gonna guess at this
Speaker 1: point in time, this this gun only helped him rent
Speaker 1: ten rounds in them magazine. Uh, the Submisso whoever it
Speaker 1: was that did the shooting bludgeoned him into unconsciousness and
Speaker 1: then paused, reloaded the gun, and then finished him off
Speaker 1: the gun was loaded. Can I ask a question here?
Speaker 1: And maybe you don't know. I don't remember seeing it anywhere.
Speaker 1: Did they ever figure out what they thought the order
Speaker 1: of the killings had taken place in? No? You know?
Speaker 1: And this is um you see, I don't know how
Speaker 1: how well fingerprint ideas hold up under under on a
Speaker 1: cartridge it's been loaded into a magazine and then fired.
Speaker 1: I would think that you would still be able to
Speaker 1: lift prints off of that after that empty showcase showcasing partial. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so the first ten rounds would have had Jeremy's fingerprints
Speaker 1: on him, no matter what, No matter what, because he
Speaker 1: admitted to loading the weapon and then leaving. Yeah, he loaded,
Speaker 1: he loaded the weapons, so that would tell you where
Speaker 1: the first shots took place. But I don't know if
Speaker 1: they did that. I know they gathered the casings and
Speaker 1: they made note of where each one was. But I
Speaker 1: looked around. I was trying to find any information about
Speaker 1: if they lifted prints off the shellcasings, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: find anything. Okay, the only reason I'm asking is that
Speaker 1: I'm imagining that the encounter between Neville and whoever was
Speaker 1: doing the shooting had to have caused quite a bit
Speaker 1: of noise, just with the bludgeoning and the broken furniture.
Speaker 1: So it almost leads me to believe that he was
Speaker 1: maybe one of the last ones to die. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what what I was thinking to you. If the kids
Speaker 1: were killed in their sleep, Let's assumed that the silencer
Speaker 1: was on the rifle for much of the crime. So
Speaker 1: the kids, if the kids were killed in their sleep,
Speaker 1: well they must have been killed first. Maybe or maybe
Speaker 1: June was. I don't know, I think. I mean, my
Speaker 1: my guess would be the boys first. And that's eight rounds.
Speaker 1: Eight rounds. That composes a logistic I say that because
Speaker 1: that's a logistical issue. You've got ten rounds total, and
Speaker 1: you've just expended eight of them. Okay, so you you know,
Speaker 1: you do that. You go downstairs, you reload. Neville says, oh,
Speaker 1: I heard something. It's weird. Comes downstairs and it's maybe
Speaker 1: it's Sheila right in this story and says, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? So nothing? Run away, You grab the phone,
Speaker 1: make the call here, gunshot go oops, drop, the phone
Speaker 1: line goes dead. You run upstairs. June's dead. Now how
Speaker 1: many shots was that seven? So you've got three? Yep,
Speaker 1: So maybe there's I'm willing to accept in this case,
Speaker 1: there could have been a margin were of one shot
Speaker 1: that was shot up above? Right, he gets shot three times,
Speaker 1: run downstairs, he was shot four times upstairs. I think
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I'm willing to see what I see
Speaker 1: where he is going, and I I suddenly see where
Speaker 1: the flaw in my logic is and maybe probably a
Speaker 1: lot of people's logic, which is I played too many
Speaker 1: freaking video games that you expend all the rounds in
Speaker 1: the cartride or in the clip before you reload, you know,
Speaker 1: because video games make that easy. But you don't. You're right,
Speaker 1: I just dawned on me. You don't have to do
Speaker 1: it that way, So that could very well be it.
Speaker 1: Or you shoot June once once in the head's all
Speaker 1: it takes. Maybe you shoot her once Neville comes up says,
Speaker 1: well what are you doing? You shoot him? Four times,
Speaker 1: chase him downstairs because he's going for the phone again
Speaker 1: or whatever, beat him to death, come back up, finished
Speaker 1: June off, and now we all know why this story
Speaker 1: is such a mystery, because we could do this for
Speaker 1: another U taking notes, Starry, Gevin and I are gonna
Speaker 1: keep going, So I'm just providing one. I totally, but
Speaker 1: I agree. I think the boys probably would have had
Speaker 1: gone first, because otherwise they would have they would have
Speaker 1: been woken up. They would have been woken up, and
Speaker 1: they would not have been peacefully in bed. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: well anyway, so I'm sorry. As a quick question, it
Speaker 1: was a it was a uh not a semi automatic?
Speaker 1: What what? What kind of semimatic? Okay, because that also
Speaker 1: explains why there maybe maybe what I would say is
Speaker 1: an excessive amount of shooting happening to like a small
Speaker 1: boy in a bed, right, you need one bullet for that.
Speaker 1: But if you are not experienced with guns and you
Speaker 1: pull the trigger a little too hard, and it just
Speaker 1: would have kept going. Not a full lotto, just semi
Speaker 1: autount you have to pull the trigger every time, every time,
Speaker 1: never mind. But yeah, whoever did it wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure the kids were dead, so you know, I want
Speaker 1: to make sure everyone was dead. Yeah you can. Actually
Speaker 1: you could actually probably survive a gunshot wounded the head.
Speaker 1: You're probably not going to survive five probably not. Just
Speaker 1: it's pretty rare, not a chance really. Uh So there
Speaker 1: was the shooting that we're not really sure what order
Speaker 1: it all occurred, and I'm guessing that uh let's say
Speaker 1: it was Sheila. She walks into the bedroom and she shoots.
Speaker 1: She shoots Neville four times, thinking well, that'll be enough,
Speaker 1: and then she turns the gun on on her mother
Speaker 1: and start shooting her. Let's say she shoots her. You know,
Speaker 1: I was like four or five maybe six times. Well,
Speaker 1: now she's got an empty gun. Meanwhile, Neville is heading downstairs. Oops,
Speaker 1: he didn't finish him up with those four rounds, and
Speaker 1: you know he's going to go grab himself a shotgun
Speaker 1: or something. So you go, you go after him, You
Speaker 1: take that rifle and you start you start head but
Speaker 1: he started hitting him with that thing until he loses
Speaker 1: cautiousness at least enough that you've got a time. I'll
Speaker 1: just a little bit of time to reload your gun
Speaker 1: and then finish him off. Then you go back upstairs
Speaker 1: and you pop a few more rounds into mother because
Speaker 1: you don't like her. Yeah, yeah, and actually she lived.
Speaker 1: Neither of the kids liked their moms work almost no
Speaker 1: matter who killed them, they didn't like June. There's there's
Speaker 1: one option of a person who maybe I didn't really care. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then of course, you know Jeremy, Jeremy had he
Speaker 1: had problems with his parents, and then he wasn't that
Speaker 1: crazy about his sister. And then he was also really
Speaker 1: kind of angry and jealous about his sister because she
Speaker 1: had had her breakdown and everything, and she's broken up
Speaker 1: with her husband, got into divorce, and so they bought
Speaker 1: her a flat in London, and Jeremy is like, Jeremy
Speaker 1: was a little a little ticked off about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they bought a really nice flat. They probably were giving
Speaker 1: her a pretty hefty allowance. She was, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: she was raising two boys, so she needed more money
Speaker 1: than he did. And of course her husband, her ex
Speaker 1: husband at that time, he reportedly said he was doing
Speaker 1: almost everything four and with the boys before they came
Speaker 1: to live with them. But I also I want to
Speaker 1: point out she was twenty eight or twenty nine when
Speaker 1: she died, so that makes Jeremy twenty four. Twenty four
Speaker 1: year old men are jealous, idiots of everything. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I mean part of so I'm not trying to justify behavior,
Speaker 1: but I'm also trying to shine a light on this
Speaker 1: is kind of normal behavior for a twenty four year
Speaker 1: old be angry at everybody else because he's not getting
Speaker 1: his entitled Yeah. Yeah, that certainly doesn't mean he's a psycho. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've don't. I've known a few people that
Speaker 1: had like they were from not superstick and huge rich,
Speaker 1: but very well off families, and when the siblings were
Speaker 1: all like, you know, you know, really kind of a
Speaker 1: yeah at each other's throats some of the money and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah, any way, back to our story
Speaker 1: when we're talking about okay, oh yeah, the twins. Twins,
Speaker 1: they were shot eight times total, and then Sheila was
Speaker 1: on the masterurbiding floor, as I said, on her back,
Speaker 1: shot twice and there were no signs of struggle on
Speaker 1: her body. That's the police set. Her hands were clean,
Speaker 1: no lead or powder residue, there was no blood on
Speaker 1: her feet, even though there was blood on the floor,
Speaker 1: So that was considered kind of significant and it might be,
Speaker 1: but that's significant well because saying the blood, because if
Speaker 1: she had done all the shooting and there was all
Speaker 1: this blood flying around, she should have had it on her.
Speaker 1: She should have walked through some of it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, but U cour at the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: when she was done slaughtering everybody, she could have washed
Speaker 1: her hands. And there were a pair of socks found
Speaker 1: nearby that we were blood stained. And so if she
Speaker 1: was walking around in her socks and she took her
Speaker 1: socks off because they were blood staining and sticky and
Speaker 1: and gross, so she takes them off, wipes her feet off,
Speaker 1: washes her hands. So there that explains the lack of
Speaker 1: blood and the lack of lead residue. So I think
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna I'm willing to say that the evidence
Speaker 1: is strong that Sheila was the last one to die.
Speaker 1: Would you agree with that she was out of the
Speaker 1: last or the first? And here's what I would say,
Speaker 1: she might have been the first, supposing that she didn't
Speaker 1: do the killing, supposing it really was Jeremy. Now, what
Speaker 1: they have said that the police, the prosecution has said
Speaker 1: there are no signs of a struggle on her body,
Speaker 1: you know, no broken, no scratches, no bruises, no broken fingernails,
Speaker 1: nothing like that. Well, if Jeremy had murdered her, and
Speaker 1: this is one of the problem the reasons I kind
Speaker 1: of have my doubts that he did murder her. The
Speaker 1: only way he could have done it without a strug
Speaker 1: would have been to kill her first. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: guess I'm going off of the evidence that's been presented
Speaker 1: with the crime scene photos and the fact that it
Speaker 1: looks like her blood is like real fresh, still wet.
Speaker 1: That's that's and that's the thing. It looks like she
Speaker 1: was last killed by far yet, right, So I am
Speaker 1: of the camp that says that she died last. And
Speaker 1: if she died last and didn't do the killing, if
Speaker 1: Jeremy or someone else did the killing, it's even more
Speaker 1: suspicious to me that she was clean because I've seen
Speaker 1: crime picture. I mean, there was a sizeable amount of
Speaker 1: blood around June, for instance, There's a lot of blood everywhere.
Speaker 1: There was stuff going on. She definitely would have been
Speaker 1: woken up with whatever is happening with Neville downstairs. Either
Speaker 1: she would have gone down to investigate that, she would
Speaker 1: have seen her mom, and who knows if she would
Speaker 1: have been sad of her mom or not. But she
Speaker 1: would have walked through some blood, there would have been
Speaker 1: some damage, and then they're probably would have been a
Speaker 1: struggle with Jeremy. Probably maybe not. I don't know what.
Speaker 1: I don't know how the drugs she was on affected her.
Speaker 1: They I know they're kind of head seditative qualities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was kind of a sedative. Yeah, anti sex. I
Speaker 1: don't know if if, I don't know, but I think
Speaker 1: that I think it's having been the first to die.
Speaker 1: Is the coagulation of the blood that doesn't add up
Speaker 1: at all? And I swear correct me if I'm wrong,
Speaker 1: if either of you know the answer. But I swear
Speaker 1: that while Jeremy and the police were outside they heard gunshots.
Speaker 1: Is that incorrect? I swear I read that somewhere. I
Speaker 1: didn't read it did a lot more clicking on some
Speaker 1: websites than I did. I know. So that's because you
Speaker 1: hate colored tech. I can't. I'm sorry you guys. Make
Speaker 1: your make them black and white, come on and and
Speaker 1: black on white, not the other way around. The worst, actually,
Speaker 1: right might the worst the worst ones of all are
Speaker 1: the ones where they have they fade away from bright,
Speaker 1: the dark, the background behind you. I just hate that.
Speaker 1: My god, it's just it's so hard in your eyes.
Speaker 1: Back to the anyway, I think she likely washed. I
Speaker 1: mean there were notes of things like her nails were
Speaker 1: perfectly manicured. Still, she was in a pristine dread or
Speaker 1: sleeping gown. Everything was perfect and not to me sounds
Speaker 1: like ritualistic cleaning after versus Oh, I just happened to
Speaker 1: make it through this basic blood bath with not a
Speaker 1: single drop of anything on me. Yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: it's highly possible that that's why she she cleaned up,
Speaker 1: maybe even changed your clothes. Although they probably would have
Speaker 1: found the clothes, maybe they wouldn't have because I know
Speaker 1: that they missed some other stuff they were not well.
Speaker 1: There is the other answer, which is she was naked.
Speaker 1: If she cleaned up and she a quick shower, there
Speaker 1: would be no blood on clothes because she had no clothes.
Speaker 1: If she was shooting people naked naked assassin, she was
Speaker 1: a model, or she had been she had been doing
Speaker 1: nude photo shoots. And I make jest, but it is
Speaker 1: completely plausible. In her own home she may have said, well,
Speaker 1: I look naked tonight. Now I'm I'm going off the edge.
Speaker 1: And you know what I'm doing it I'm naked. Well
Speaker 1: she's not gonna stop me. Well it was her parents house. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, no, that's true. It could she could have
Speaker 1: been naked. I like that theory. That one other, one
Speaker 1: other thing about Sheila's body is that there was a
Speaker 1: Bible next to it. It was it was open and length,
Speaker 1: print down, facedown, face down. It was June's Bible, right,
Speaker 1: that was actually June's Bible, but it was next to
Speaker 1: Sheila's body. And when you look at the crime scene photos,
Speaker 1: you can see a note sticking out between the pages somebody.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that was a note written
Speaker 1: by Sheila or by June or you know. I've looked
Speaker 1: at the photo and it's it's the It's hard to tell,
Speaker 1: but I almost wonder if it's just a bookmark. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've heard it referred to as the note, but since
Speaker 1: we don't know what it is, I'm just wondering if
Speaker 1: it was some kind of bookmark. I was just going
Speaker 1: to say that I my family members who are intensely
Speaker 1: religious have their study Bibles, and they have notes and
Speaker 1: stuff stuck in there too. You know, they had a
Speaker 1: thought or they have something that they want to remember
Speaker 1: relates to this something, Yeah that relates to that passage
Speaker 1: or or maybe not, but maybe it's something else. I
Speaker 1: don't know. People keep notes in their Bibles sometimes they do,
Speaker 1: so it's not necessarily significant. But here's the thing, is
Speaker 1: the note is gone. Yeah, so that's it's it's weird
Speaker 1: if it pertains to the case. Yeah, it might not.
Speaker 1: I guess it's weird. I guess if it doesn't pertain
Speaker 1: to the case, because then why is it gone? But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it might have just been like saying notes
Speaker 1: about various biblical kinds of things, you know, and so
Speaker 1: somebody just thought that we don't need this pitch it
Speaker 1: on the Bible itself. The defense lawyers were asking for,
Speaker 1: like if they had had any separate, isolated pictures of
Speaker 1: the Bible, and you know, and like especially they were
Speaker 1: still in finding out what pages it was open too.
Speaker 1: And the police said, uh, now, we never took separate
Speaker 1: pictures of it. And then, by the way, the Bible
Speaker 1: itself was destroyed sometimes I don't remember exactly we destroyed it. Great, guys,
Speaker 1: they destroyed a lot of stuff they like ten years
Speaker 1: after the case. Yeah, and then well there's a limit
Speaker 1: I believed how long they were required to keep certain evidence.
Speaker 1: But in a case where it's still being appealed continually,
Speaker 1: it's amazing that they did it, that they destroyed it.
Speaker 1: You read you read why they did right. The police
Speaker 1: department that was in charge, the head custody of all
Speaker 1: this stuff said, oh, we didn't know the case was ongoing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That was their official statement, was we burned it because
Speaker 1: we were unaware that the case was ongoing. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to use that. Great guys. Yeah, know's there's
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in this in this case, like
Speaker 1: the phone calls. If it's true that Neville called the police,
Speaker 1: and there is there is some evidence that Neville Bamber
Speaker 1: called the police there and there's and then he's and
Speaker 1: then supposedly he called Jeremy, and then Jeremy called the
Speaker 1: police and they called differently, because I know Jeremy didn't
Speaker 1: use he called the station's number directly. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: believe Neville called I think so. Yeah. And the thing
Speaker 1: about it is is those were recorded, but the recorder
Speaker 1: the recordings were deleted after twenty eight days, which is
Speaker 1: a crying shame because that would solve the mystery. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a damn shame. I mean, anyway back into this thing, well,
Speaker 1: they had it was a there's a picture even of
Speaker 1: the log. Yeah, there's two different logs of two different
Speaker 1: of apparently two different two different stations. Yeah. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: one of them said somebody identifying themselves as a Mr.
Speaker 1: Bamber called and said my daughter who's twenty six years
Speaker 1: old and has a gun. And then that was it.
Speaker 1: And then another call was Jeremy Bamber says his dad
Speaker 1: called him, and I mean it's pretty solid evidence. And
Speaker 1: there's there's different time stamps, yeah, about ten minutes difference. Well,
Speaker 1: and that's the funny thing is I remember reading and
Speaker 1: it it just stood out his odd to me that
Speaker 1: they have two different time stamps and they're almost exactly
Speaker 1: ten minutes apart. But one of the rationales is obviously
Speaker 1: the officer who was taking the note misread the time
Speaker 1: on the clock and it should have been twenty four
Speaker 1: instead of thirty four. That was like or whatever. It
Speaker 1: was like, it was like the one of them was
Speaker 1: three six and at the endmal was three thirty six. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I believe that Bambers, Jeremy Bamber's call was at
Speaker 1: three thirty six. Right, But here's here's the deal, is
Speaker 1: that in response to Neville's call, they had dispatched a
Speaker 1: car to the farmhouse at three thirty five. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, it's not not just incompetence at
Speaker 1: a certain point. I mean, it's at some point you
Speaker 1: kind of think that it's suspicious. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: suspiciously incompetent. Yeah, I mean, maybe somebody didn't like Jeremy.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh, I'm I have no doubt in
Speaker 1: my mind that a lot of people didn't like Jeremy.
Speaker 1: He said, Yeah, it doesn't seem like a lackable guy.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean he should be in prison. No, no,
Speaker 1: But on the bright side, in prison, he has obviously
Speaker 1: got a lot of time to work out. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he's got time to He's got lots and lots of
Speaker 1: time to work on his appeals because he just keeps
Speaker 1: appealing this case. But he's also working on his guns, evidently,
Speaker 1: because the photos of him today he is kind of
Speaker 1: a big dude, keeping in shape, you know. Yeah, back
Speaker 1: to our mystery. Three days after the murderers, Jeremy's cousins
Speaker 1: went to the house because they felt like the police
Speaker 1: said probably, they didn't feel like the police were really
Speaker 1: paying proper attention, and they wanted to go search the
Speaker 1: house themselves. They were suspicious, right, wasn't capable of that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So they thought, well, clearly somebody else
Speaker 1: did it, and the police didn't search for evidence, which
Speaker 1: is fair. I mean, you know, they said, well, the
Speaker 1: gun always had a suppressor and a scope on it,
Speaker 1: and neither of those things were on the gun when
Speaker 1: you found it, so where were they? And the police said,
Speaker 1: we didn't find it well, and evidently they weren't easy.
Speaker 1: I imagined the suppressor wasn't hard, but the I know,
Speaker 1: the scope required a screwdriver to take it off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's like it's one of those one
Speaker 1: of those things, probably a screwdriver, maybe even just a
Speaker 1: dime or a nickel, you know, something like that. It's
Speaker 1: it's not not hard to get off at all. It's
Speaker 1: not anybody could do it. And of course the suppressor
Speaker 1: just screws right on. They said, when they they're searching
Speaker 1: of the house, they want to the gun closet. The
Speaker 1: cousins did, yeah, and they found the silencer and just
Speaker 1: right there, right exactly where I would yeah, exactly, just poppers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is and they keep calling this everywhere, they call
Speaker 1: it the gun cabinet, but really what it is. It's
Speaker 1: a small, little stubby closet and underneath the Harry Potter closet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it they noticed that it had red paint on it,
Speaker 1: and it was also sticky with a little bit of blood.
Speaker 1: Uh So they they called the police, and the police
Speaker 1: eventually came by and got it. Three days, took him
Speaker 1: two or three days later. I thought it was ten
Speaker 1: three days, three days, three days later they went and
Speaker 1: got it. There was something else ten days was it?
Speaker 1: When they took photos official crime scene photo, there was
Speaker 1: something that happened. There was something like that that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was how low? How does it take that low? Yeah? Yeah, no, definitely, No,
Speaker 1: they actually took crime scene photos like the day of
Speaker 1: but not great ones, right, yeah, but they were thorough
Speaker 1: enough to bring up one one anomally really interesting. Anomally
Speaker 1: it really interesting anomally Yeah. Uh So the family, the cousins,
Speaker 1: when they found this thing, they saw that paint. They
Speaker 1: went back to the farmhouse looking for the source of
Speaker 1: this red paint that was on the suppressor and they
Speaker 1: found it in the kitchen where the big fight took place. Uh.
Speaker 1: So there's a there's an august stove, like a big old,
Speaker 1: I don't know, oil stove, old fashioned kind of stove,
Speaker 1: and there was a red a mantle over it that
Speaker 1: was painted red. And there were a bunch of scratches
Speaker 1: and gouges in this thing. And that paint did match
Speaker 1: the paint on the suppressor. Uh. And wasn't there a
Speaker 1: red paint like underneath it too that they matched to
Speaker 1: actually the nail polished color that was on Sheila's toes. Boy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were looking for a flex of red paint in
Speaker 1: the in the crime scene photos because they the defense
Speaker 1: the Bamber's defense team hired an expert in photo analysis,
Speaker 1: and he he was expecting to find flex of red
Speaker 1: paint underneath where all this happened in the crime scene.
Speaker 1: If that was, he did not see it. He saw
Speaker 1: a flack of something red and he finally matched it
Speaker 1: to a chip in Sheila's to hair tonail polish, and
Speaker 1: the chunk of that came off. Yeah, apparently, so maybe
Speaker 1: there was a struggle. I don't but the marks on
Speaker 1: the mantel weren't in the original crime scene photos. Right,
Speaker 1: they weren't visible in the original crime scene photos, which
Speaker 1: is crazy. Yeah, so this is really suspicious. That's a
Speaker 1: little suspicious, don't you think. Yeah, so, uh well, okay,
Speaker 1: let's move on and we'll talk about that some more
Speaker 1: later after. So, after the funerals, they had the did
Speaker 1: a funeral for Neville in June, and then they had
Speaker 1: a separate funeral for Sheila and the kids. And then
Speaker 1: Jeremy Bambera went to Amsterdam. He tried to buy a
Speaker 1: large amount of drugs and offered to sell some nude
Speaker 1: photos of Sheila. Actually what it what it really was?
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. He actually didn't do that in Amsterdam.
Speaker 1: He came he was back in Britain and he went
Speaker 1: to the Sun. What's the tabloid? I was I was
Speaker 1: going to guess it would be the Daily Mail, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you had a good shot. Yeah, now you went to
Speaker 1: the He went to the Sun and uh, and he said, hey,
Speaker 1: I've got some I've got some. I don't know if
Speaker 1: they are totally naked pictures or just kind of revealing
Speaker 1: pictures or what they were. But the guys, the guys
Speaker 1: at the Sun thought it was kind of creeping inappropriate,
Speaker 1: even the guys at the Sun. I know it was
Speaker 1: creeping inappropriate. I know, and now seriously, and so I
Speaker 1: mean this is like just not very much, not long
Speaker 1: at all, like after her death and yeah, just weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he's offering to sell naked pictures ever to the
Speaker 1: newspaper because he wants some cash, and so they just
Speaker 1: decided we'll screw him, and so they ran a front
Speaker 1: page story about how he had tried to sell naked
Speaker 1: pictures of his freshly dead sister to them. Kind of embarrassing,
Speaker 1: not a great story. Yeah, uh yeah. So anyway, after
Speaker 1: his little John and after Daim, he and he was
Speaker 1: spending a lot of money because surprisingly he had all
Speaker 1: kinds of funds available to him, like half a million
Speaker 1: dollars right from half million, it was like four hundred
Speaker 1: thirty six thousand pounds and it was a lot of money. Well,
Speaker 1: and all of that wasn't cash money. This is yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all that stuff. Ye get a big bank roll available.
Speaker 1: I guess I just want to point out a lot
Speaker 1: of people think it's really really suspicious that he went
Speaker 1: out and was partying and doing a lot of drugs
Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Frankly, if my whole family died
Speaker 1: in a really gruesome way and then I had a
Speaker 1: lot of money, I would be trying to escape reality
Speaker 1: whatever way I could. I would buy the most amount
Speaker 1: of drugs that I could possibly buy. I would Charlie
Speaker 1: Sheen that stuff. I would be full Charlie Sheen. I
Speaker 1: would like be snorting everything I possibly could, drinking everything
Speaker 1: I could, sleeping with whoever I could, just to get
Speaker 1: away from the reality. And so I think it's just
Speaker 1: so dumb that people are like, well, he did go
Speaker 1: spend a lot of money. It's like, yeah, what what
Speaker 1: else are you gonna do? Your whole family was just
Speaker 1: murder and everybody thinks it's okay. You go to a funeral,
Speaker 1: and then afterwards everybody raises a drink to that person.
Speaker 1: That's totally okay. Well, in my family we tend to
Speaker 1: raise more than one too where irish. Yeah, well, and
Speaker 1: then you know, so you go, but yeah, you bring
Speaker 1: the great point of his extended family doesn't like him,
Speaker 1: and he probably doesn't like them very much. He doesn't
Speaker 1: now at least, and so he's gonna go grieve and
Speaker 1: the only way that he can figure out as a
Speaker 1: dumb twenty four year old guy. That's the other part
Speaker 1: we forget. He was four years old. And yeah, and
Speaker 1: the other thing to remember is that it might very
Speaker 1: well be that he didn't like anybody his family and
Speaker 1: he wasn't that sorry to see him gone. Doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: that doesn't make him a murderer. It makes him a
Speaker 1: big jerk, but probably. I mean, yeah, and Jeremy, about
Speaker 1: a month after after the murders, he screwed up big time.
Speaker 1: He was, whether guilty or not, yea guilty of this.
Speaker 1: I think what what I heard happened is is he
Speaker 1: was what Julia as his girlfriend, Julie Mugford, and he'd
Speaker 1: been dating her for several years, come two years, and
Speaker 1: he's the one that he called that night. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and she he had apparently told her all kinds of
Speaker 1: details about what he did. Apparently she was in on
Speaker 1: she was in to know about the murder, which to
Speaker 1: me is telling telling anybody. Supposedly she was. Uh so anyway,
Speaker 1: apparently they were they were together, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: at his place, and he got a phone call from
Speaker 1: an ex girlfriend and then he uh she overhears him
Speaker 1: making a date with his ex girlfriend, and so she
Speaker 1: flew into a rage, drew some stuff at him, and
Speaker 1: it was kind of kind of a little physical altercation.
Speaker 1: He dumped her, and which is a really stupid thing
Speaker 1: to do. It's really stupid to tell somebody all these
Speaker 1: details about the murder that you committed and then dump her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really don't. Yeah, Well, he she like threw a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff at him, and then he twisted her arm
Speaker 1: behind her to get her to stop, and then she
Speaker 1: stormed out. And then wasn't it half the half the
Speaker 1: time I read that she went to the cops, and
Speaker 1: the other half the time I heard that they pulled
Speaker 1: her in for some stuff. She was well, she had been.
Speaker 1: She it had troubles with the with the police to
Speaker 1: see several other things. There was some theft, there was
Speaker 1: a bad lot, there was pot, there was breaking and entering,
Speaker 1: the theft. Yeah, one other. Yeah, this is one of
Speaker 1: the things that kind of reduces your credibility. But she
Speaker 1: was she was the star prosecution witness and Jeremy Bamber's trial.
Speaker 1: Believe it or not, she told the cops something. So
Speaker 1: she watched the police and changed her story because they
Speaker 1: had they had talked to her about what happened and
Speaker 1: everything had at least one that. Yeah, So she goes
Speaker 1: to them and she tells them that actually Bamber said
Speaker 1: that they hated his parents, and he thinks he said
Speaker 1: at one time when he really really wanted to do
Speaker 1: was go over there for dinner and drug them and
Speaker 1: to date to them and then come back a little
Speaker 1: later on when they're all passed out and burned the
Speaker 1: house down. That was one of apparently his fantasies. And
Speaker 1: we had talked about murdering them in other ways. And
Speaker 1: she also said she saw Jeremy's mother's bike at his house.
Speaker 1: It was June's bike. Yeah, yeah, and uh, and that
Speaker 1: was that was a key part of the prosecution's case,
Speaker 1: was that he bicycled over there to murder everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and said so he could leave his car there and
Speaker 1: his car wouldn't be seen on the roads. And she
Speaker 1: said that he phoned her. She said a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell everything. She really did. She
Speaker 1: spun a yeah, she did. She she called him up
Speaker 1: that night, the night of the murders and said tonight
Speaker 1: or never, and then she said that she wanted the farmhouse.
Speaker 1: In the morning of August seventh after the murders, because
Speaker 1: apparently Jeremy wanted to see her and then you know,
Speaker 1: you know how somebody that she that he knew to
Speaker 1: talk to. Yeah, yeah, and uh so the cops went
Speaker 1: and got her and brought her there, and supposedly he
Speaker 1: took her aside when they got there, and according to her,
Speaker 1: and she said, quote, I should have been an actor.
Speaker 1: Yeah that he told her, Yeah, that he should have
Speaker 1: been an actor he was doing so well or something
Speaker 1: like yeah, although there was the same thing when she
Speaker 1: showed up. There was a son interview with one of
Speaker 1: the policemen who was there investigating at the time. And
Speaker 1: so they took them into the house and they found
Speaker 1: a room that what didn't have a corpse in it,
Speaker 1: which was hard to do, yeah, yeah, yeah, And then
Speaker 1: they found it didn't have a corpse, and they said, yeah,
Speaker 1: you guys can just go in there, and to just
Speaker 1: go in there and be together in YadA YadA, And
Speaker 1: then they shut the door. And the cop says he
Speaker 1: could swear that just assumed that's that door shut. He
Speaker 1: heard a laugh. He said that he wasn't sure. It
Speaker 1: was like at the time, I thought he was saying,
Speaker 1: I like I thought, well, maybe it was a cough,
Speaker 1: but it was like it sounded like a laugh. Well,
Speaker 1: wasn't there some report of when Jeremy was at the
Speaker 1: funerals that he was kind of you know, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: really really sad and then like gave this huge smile
Speaker 1: to his cousins or something like that was his cousins. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: they were in the car and as his cousin, David,
Speaker 1: David Boteflower said that he was in the back seat
Speaker 1: and he turned around and you gave him a huge
Speaker 1: grin just as soon as they were outside of the
Speaker 1: funeral And then he said his other cousin, I think
Speaker 1: it was his cousin said, said he did it, didn't he? Again,
Speaker 1: it's you know, one of those just because he didn't
Speaker 1: like his family doesn't mean to kill them all. Absolutely not. Especially.
Speaker 1: The other thing to point out, I guess is that
Speaker 1: in all of these stories, all the tellings that Julie has,
Speaker 1: of all of his fantasies of killing his family, it
Speaker 1: was it was again, it was not very personal, right,
Speaker 1: it was like poisoned them and set the house on fire,
Speaker 1: not look them in the eye as I shoot them
Speaker 1: point blank twenty times, right, not tell me that's an exaggeration.
Speaker 1: But most of the things that he said, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we all read kind of the same stuff.
Speaker 1: And she said that he fantasized about killing them in
Speaker 1: multiple different ways. And I think every single one that
Speaker 1: I remember reading was poison and do something or drug
Speaker 1: and burned house down or yeah something, none of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he certainly didn't detail anything like hey is the word
Speaker 1: I'm looking for? Yeah, absolutely, you know, And so I
Speaker 1: don't know she made this stuff up or not. Apparently
Speaker 1: her one of the roommates also said that, um that
Speaker 1: Jeremy hated his parents and he just hated his family,
Speaker 1: So maybe he was going around talking about how much
Speaker 1: he hates But again, the guy was twenty four years old,
Speaker 1: you know, and you tend to be saying do kind
Speaker 1: of jerkish things at that end. I said stuff like
Speaker 1: that all the time. Yeah, I said about you all
Speaker 1: the time. I meant to murder these two. Start my
Speaker 1: own podcast I do every time I listened to that,
Speaker 1: and then do a podcast unjust your murders. Yeah, it'll
Speaker 1: be on Cereal. Yeah, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: my own podcast with black Jacks and hookers. Alright, so well,
Speaker 1: you know, she's questionable. Yeah, yeah, So so she also
Speaker 1: said that Jeremy said that he hadn't done it, but
Speaker 1: they had hired a plumber named Matthew McDonald to do
Speaker 1: it for two thou pounds, which is a really really
Speaker 1: bargain basement price for murdering five people. And it really is, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, And actually that guy turned out to
Speaker 1: have an alibi. Obviously the police pulled him in. He
Speaker 1: had a good alibi. So iron cloud is what they say.
Speaker 1: That's what they say. Wasn't didn't wasn't she granted immunity
Speaker 1: for like all of her crimes, her testimony got out
Speaker 1: of a lot of trouble. Yeah, that's another reason to
Speaker 1: question her, question her reliability. Is a witness again, she's
Speaker 1: angry about being jilted. She did have a history of dishonesty.
Speaker 1: She was motivated, she's motivated by this. Disagree with the testimony, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then she doesn't have to go to jail. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so at this point, the police put him under surveillance,
Speaker 1: and that's I'm talking about Jeremy, and they saw that
Speaker 1: he was selling off the family silver and antiques and
Speaker 1: stuff like that to raise cash and doing a lot
Speaker 1: of partying. And so at one point he's gone off
Speaker 1: to Santra Pe for a vacation. When he came back
Speaker 1: and he got off the plane, they arrested him. And
Speaker 1: that was in September eighty five, about a month after
Speaker 1: the murders, and then a year later the trial started
Speaker 1: this Actuby six. The prosecution's theory was that Jeremy left
Speaker 1: the farm about ten pm and went back to his
Speaker 1: house and then came back by bicycle in the wee
Speaker 1: hours of August seven. He broke into the house to
Speaker 1: the bathroom window, which apparently I think the latch was
Speaker 1: defect the ever broken or was he could use had
Speaker 1: an you could use that to unlatch it so it
Speaker 1: sneck in. Here's the problem that I have with this
Speaker 1: is that if he snuck in and surprised everybody in
Speaker 1: their sleep, what about the dog? What do you mean
Speaker 1: what about the dog? The dog knew him, well, the
Speaker 1: dog still would have barked up until the dog established
Speaker 1: who he was. The dog was here, he was, if
Speaker 1: he was breaking, if he was coming in through a window,
Speaker 1: dog would have barked, yeah, my dog, my parents dog
Speaker 1: barks at me when I walk in the front door. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I have known plenty of dogs who sleep on
Speaker 1: the bed with their master and something falls on the
Speaker 1: floor downstairs and the dog doesn't budge. That's true. But
Speaker 1: just because they have a dog doesn't mean the dog
Speaker 1: is gonna go bananas. That's the dog was doing a
Speaker 1: lot of barking. Later on, of course, that there were
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of corpses in that time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but no, I mean just because there's a dog doesn't
Speaker 1: mean he couldn't that the dog would have gone haywire
Speaker 1: when he came in. The dog may have walked into
Speaker 1: the hallway and he would hey, poo jams, how's it going.
Speaker 1: Oh it's you okay? Big? Oh yeah, don't you call
Speaker 1: your dog down and have a dog? I have two
Speaker 1: cats that think they're dogs. Well yeah, anyway, where are
Speaker 1: we at here? So I will try to reconstruct the
Speaker 1: whole crime thing. So assuming that Jared this is just
Speaker 1: what the prosecution says, he got the rifle, one up
Speaker 1: and shot his parents, never runs downstairs. It's a fight
Speaker 1: and he finishes. Nevill Off goes up and shoots, shoots Sheila,
Speaker 1: and then shot the twins as they slept. Then he
Speaker 1: arranged the scene to incriminate Sheila the Bible, and then
Speaker 1: he put the silencer away because he figured out at
Speaker 1: this point in time that her her arms were just
Speaker 1: not long enough for to pull that trigger when the
Speaker 1: silence was on the end of that gun took He
Speaker 1: also took the phone off the hook, went out the window,
Speaker 1: cycled home, and then called the police and said he've
Speaker 1: gotten a phone call from his dad. They argued the
Speaker 1: prosecution that this argued that member had not received a
Speaker 1: call from his father, and I don't know how how
Speaker 1: they could hardly really argued that how can he say
Speaker 1: that he didn't receive a call? Again, he approved that
Speaker 1: he would think we're very spoiled in this day and
Speaker 1: age with phone records. Oh yeah, I know. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if they just weren't logged or what. Well.
Speaker 1: I think also, the argument was right that since Neville
Speaker 1: had been shot through the jaw in the bedroom and
Speaker 1: the phone that was off the hook was the one
Speaker 1: in the kitchen, the argument was that by the time
Speaker 1: he had made it to the kitchen, there was no
Speaker 1: way that he could have made the phone call, and
Speaker 1: there was the assumption that that would have been the
Speaker 1: only time he was in the kitchen that evening and
Speaker 1: that was happening. Yeah, I think it's shoddy, but I
Speaker 1: don't think that was probably the argument. Yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: assume that that, and that's what they do too. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't assume that because I think I would think
Speaker 1: he made that. Again, if she's acting looney with a gun,
Speaker 1: that's when you that's when you pick up the phone.
Speaker 1: If she's already shooting, you don't go for the phone
Speaker 1: for the shotgun. That's the other thing that is if
Speaker 1: Neville got shot several times and he called and he
Speaker 1: calls his son, and I know that Jeremy said well,
Speaker 1: and people said, well, he was the keep it in
Speaker 1: the family kind of guy. But I've just been shot
Speaker 1: three or four times, call an ambulance. Why didn't you
Speaker 1: call the ambulance yourself? Well, that's it. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the things that they were saying too, is that
Speaker 1: why would he have called Jeremy instead of he did
Speaker 1: call the police It appears thee but he would have
Speaker 1: said to the police, I've been shot three or four times,
Speaker 1: sending him exactly. Is why I think it's reasonable to
Speaker 1: assume that he called before he got shot. He did.
Speaker 1: I think he called before the shooting started. He did,
Speaker 1: and he called him. He called. I think he likely
Speaker 1: called the cops. And then he called his son and said,
Speaker 1: you are three miles away and you've got a car.
Speaker 1: Come talk your sister down, come help me. Called the
Speaker 1: cops before you leave, so there's more people coming, but
Speaker 1: your sister's gone crazy. Or he called his son first
Speaker 1: and said, hey, call the cops and get over here,
Speaker 1: or just get over here, if he didn't want to
Speaker 1: keep it in the family, right, I don't think he
Speaker 1: just said. He just said, hey, your your sister's gone crazy,
Speaker 1: get over here. Please. The line goes dead because he said,
Speaker 1: you know, he said, he said what he needs to say,
Speaker 1: stiff upper lip, you know, shortened to the point. Line
Speaker 1: goes dead, touches the receiver. I'm doing I'm mining it
Speaker 1: touches the receiver because I remember those phones, right. Dallas
Speaker 1: completes the call that was logged at the other spot, says, okay,
Speaker 1: there's these you know, and then drops the phone and
Speaker 1: to pursue whatever I think, or the phone could have
Speaker 1: gotten knocked and knocked off the cradle during the struggle, struggle, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and for the cops could have done. I mean again,
Speaker 1: I I there's no blood on the phone. Because the
Speaker 1: phone call was made before the shooting started. It has
Speaker 1: to be nobody. Nobody tries to make there was a yeah.
Speaker 1: So I have one question for the police records of
Speaker 1: the calls. Did they they traced the phone number that
Speaker 1: the call came from, or the caller identified where they
Speaker 1: were coming from? You know, times the caller identified when.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so the collar gave their phone number. I
Speaker 1: think I don't think there was. I don't even know
Speaker 1: if there was a phone number. Okay, now there were
Speaker 1: phone numbers on those reports. I mean the one that
Speaker 1: supposedly came from Neville had the address the White House
Speaker 1: farm and number. My reason for asking that is the
Speaker 1: timelines weird, and the call to Jeremy is weird, and
Speaker 1: the whole thing doesn't really make a lot of sense
Speaker 1: to me. And so it made me start to wonder
Speaker 1: if maybe it wasn't Nevill that called him, but if
Speaker 1: it wasn't his sister that called, Hey, I've killed mom
Speaker 1: and dad. I don't know what's going on. I've got
Speaker 1: some problems. So then he hangs up he calls the
Speaker 1: cops saying he's nevill to get them to go over,
Speaker 1: and then ten minutes later it's like, um, um crap,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call the cops again, but I can't be
Speaker 1: Dad this time, so I'll just be myself. Especially if
Speaker 1: they don't they're not identified by a trace number. Did
Speaker 1: they have photo or did they Did they have cared?
Speaker 1: I don't think they do, and that's why they can't.
Speaker 1: They can't confirmed this phone called to Jeremy from the house,
Speaker 1: so I suddenly wonder if maybe it I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't want to sully on the dead, but maybe it
Speaker 1: really was her. And she called up her brother's confessing
Speaker 1: what she had done and saying, I don't know what
Speaker 1: to do. I just realized that killed them all. Guess
Speaker 1: holy crap. The only argument against that is that the
Speaker 1: relationship between the siblings did not seem to be particularly
Speaker 1: the robust. It seems like she would have probably called
Speaker 1: her ex husband before she would have called her brother
Speaker 1: husband and said, hey, I just killed her. I think
Speaker 1: she had a better relationship with her ex husband than
Speaker 1: she did hers. Sounds like it wasn't a totally bad relationship,
Speaker 1: but he was away in London. That's true. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it just that's not a bad point. Again, I
Speaker 1: just these are things that I keep thinking about because
Speaker 1: there's so many weird things in this case. Well you know,
Speaker 1: it could potentially fit. Yeah, but then why would she
Speaker 1: have killed herself? Guilt? It's usually why the person at
Speaker 1: the end does themselves in is they can't stand what
Speaker 1: they've done. Are maybe maybe she called Jeremy, and Jeremy says, well,
Speaker 1: you killed them all, and and she says, yes, I've
Speaker 1: killed them all. What am I gonna do this as well?
Speaker 1: Usually what people do in these cases is killed themselves.
Speaker 1: We probably should should probably keep going a little bit
Speaker 1: because Joe and I talked about a theory we have, Okay,
Speaker 1: anyway to summarize what I think is wrong with the
Speaker 1: prosecutions theory Again, Now, that was too badly injured to
Speaker 1: have spoken anyway, No blood in the kitchen phone, he
Speaker 1: was not, and he he had to have made that
Speaker 1: phone call if he made it before the shooting started. Yeah,
Speaker 1: almost certainly I disagree with that at all. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: that's uh, So let's get back to the silencer for
Speaker 1: a second. Yeah, the one that the one that was
Speaker 1: on from the two that had the blood on it
Speaker 1: and inside it. Well, but it's not the only silencer
Speaker 1: that was in the house now I know, But that
Speaker 1: was the one that actually went with that twenty two rifle.
Speaker 1: Is that true? Because I know that there was several
Speaker 1: silencers and there were several guns, and that the guns
Speaker 1: gotten mixed up and relabeled in police custody at least
Speaker 1: once again, great investigation, which okay, makes me wonder if
Speaker 1: there wasn't more. And I don't remember, I don't remember
Speaker 1: seeing it specified what type, but I do remember seeing
Speaker 1: suspicions that they had mixed them up and that the
Speaker 1: one that had the blood in it wasn't actually the
Speaker 1: one that the prosecution was saying originally had been used.
Speaker 1: That's always possible, But the police wound up with the
Speaker 1: silence in their possession that did have red paint on
Speaker 1: it. It It did have blood on on the outside and
Speaker 1: also inside, because you know how silences work, right, They're
Speaker 1: like a two with a bunch of baffles that I
Speaker 1: have just a hole through the middle of them. And
Speaker 1: so apparently there was not a huge amount but a
Speaker 1: little bit of back spatter, which makes sense that a
Speaker 1: short distance, short distance, even contact wounds, you know. So
Speaker 1: the first four or five of these baffles had some
Speaker 1: blood on them and they said it was the same
Speaker 1: blood type of Sheila's. They said it was the same
Speaker 1: blood blood blood group. Yeah, and I assume that's British
Speaker 1: for blood type. It's not. Here's how this goes, because
Speaker 1: I actually bread into this. So in humans, evidently they
Speaker 1: are one of two blood groups, or at least in
Speaker 1: that family, there was one of two blood groups, A
Speaker 1: K one and a K two DASH one. I don't
Speaker 1: understand what those things. I don't know what they it's.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it means either. If I saw
Speaker 1: it in front of me, I could say the words.
Speaker 1: But they are different groups. And the thing is is
Speaker 1: that the technology wasn't all that great. It wasn't as
Speaker 1: if they were sequencing the d N A. A K
Speaker 1: one is not only present in human blood, apparently from
Speaker 1: the stuff I've read. I don't know if that's true,
Speaker 1: but what I read is that well, actually this this
Speaker 1: um and I can't remember exactly what the a K
Speaker 1: one stands for, but it's in the blood of other critters,
Speaker 1: rabbits and yeah, so there's there there's some issue in
Speaker 1: that we found blood on it. Bit Yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like and there was some I'll talk
Speaker 1: about this in a little bit. The now that we
Speaker 1: have d n A. Of course, I don't know if
Speaker 1: the silence are still around if they destroyed that too.
Speaker 1: I think it's still around and they did a little checking.
Speaker 1: That was my understanding. To my understanding is that they
Speaker 1: tracked out Sheila's actual bio mother. But I'll talk about
Speaker 1: that in a minute. So, because there was that blood
Speaker 1: from Sheila's blood group in that silence, Sir Than, the
Speaker 1: prosecution argued that she was shot with the silence here
Speaker 1: on the gun and therefore she couldn't have done it herself.
Speaker 1: It had to have been murder because her arms again
Speaker 1: were not long enough to reach the trigger. And I'll
Speaker 1: mention I read somewhere online somebody saying, well, she was barefoot,
Speaker 1: so she could have pulled it with her toe. But
Speaker 1: please remember, the silencer was not on the gun when
Speaker 1: it was found owned, so there's no way she could
Speaker 1: have pulled it with her toe. Yeah, okay, And there's
Speaker 1: no way she could have shot herself, taken it off,
Speaker 1: put it in the cabinet, and then gone back to
Speaker 1: where she died, at least not as pristina as she was. Well,
Speaker 1: no one are the shots. No, I know, I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: but like additionally, actually that neck one apparently would have
Speaker 1: not immediately killed her. It was the one that went
Speaker 1: into her head, so she would have killed it would
Speaker 1: have eventually said if she had shot herself on the neck,
Speaker 1: thought oh, just kidding, this isn't gonna work with the
Speaker 1: silence or on for some reason, took it off, went
Speaker 1: down to the gun cabinet, put it back in the
Speaker 1: gun cabinet, came back upstairs, shot herself again. That's not possible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a just yeah, it's h I mean, there's a
Speaker 1: competing theory out there, which is that she was going
Speaker 1: to try to shoot herself. She realized it wouldn't work,
Speaker 1: so even the first shot, she just she took the
Speaker 1: suppressor off. And I don't know how much how a
Speaker 1: bunch of a neat freak Sheila was, she took to
Speaker 1: suppress her off. She put it away. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, for all I know, the suppressor she took
Speaker 1: it off in the kitchen and set it on the table.
Speaker 1: And then somebody came along, like the police and they
Speaker 1: said that what's this doing laying out? And I'll just
Speaker 1: I'll just put it in the gun cabinet over there,
Speaker 1: because this is something we haven't actually addressed you. It
Speaker 1: is the number of people who came through this crime
Speaker 1: so like people came through this crime scene before anybody.
Speaker 1: And there's even evidence to suggest that the bodies were
Speaker 1: moved before they were before pictures were taken of them.
Speaker 1: That would absolutely corrupt any kind of body placement anything
Speaker 1: of a suicide. Yeah, and there's pictures that are taken
Speaker 1: that show the gun having been moved and laying I
Speaker 1: think it's leaned up against a wall near a window,
Speaker 1: and you can see it in another photo accidentally, but
Speaker 1: then it's back, so that that's also worth mentioning as well.
Speaker 1: It's totally possible that, you know, there was just a silence,
Speaker 1: are rolling around and somebody thought I'll just put this away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's totally he was unlikely, but I guess I'm not.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be shocked to find out that that happened me.
Speaker 1: Neither uh or the prosecution. Last to set up the
Speaker 1: prosecution argus, it was claimed that she had no knowledge
Speaker 1: of guns and no interest in guns. She lacked the
Speaker 1: strength to overcome her father. Uh, and there was no
Speaker 1: evidence in her clothes or body that she had moved
Speaker 1: around the crime scene or been involved in a struggle.
Speaker 1: But again, I I don't find that this positive myself,
Speaker 1: because she had the rifle. So the rifle was at
Speaker 1: her father was still up and about but wounded. He
Speaker 1: was wounded, had four bullets of him. So and she
Speaker 1: had a rifle. It made a nice handy club, and
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't have been hard to bludgeon him until
Speaker 1: I tell he was unconscious. And it's also hard to
Speaker 1: know if in a situation like this, you want assumes
Speaker 1: that a that a person would fight back, But sometimes
Speaker 1: you find you read about these cases where you know,
Speaker 1: a daughter's like just totally beaten on their dad, and
Speaker 1: their dad isn't fight back because they don't hurt their daughter.
Speaker 1: It could be it's possible. It's not likely in this situation.
Speaker 1: It's more likely he was just too injured to fight back,
Speaker 1: but it's always possible. Yeah. I mean, he's losing blood
Speaker 1: and he's got four bullet holes in him, and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So the trial ended with a conviction um October six. Uh,
Speaker 1: the jury found ten to two that he was guilty.
Speaker 1: So if he had gotten one more, one more not
Speaker 1: guilty vote from a jury, he would have been let go,
Speaker 1: but he was. He was found guilty, sentenced to five
Speaker 1: life terms. And by the way, the judge in this
Speaker 1: case really I think moved the goal posts on him
Speaker 1: when he said, when you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: It was supposed to well, it was originally supposed to
Speaker 1: be unanimous verity, but they were having trouble reaching a verdict,
Speaker 1: so the judge basically said, hey, you don't. You just
Speaker 1: need to You just need to get at least nine
Speaker 1: out of twelve, So I'm going to change the rules
Speaker 1: on you, you know, so instead of having to be unanimous.
Speaker 1: We also said that they could convict solely on the
Speaker 1: testimony of the ex girlfriends. Those were his instructions. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that you can convict solely under testimony, which I think
Speaker 1: I think is a highly questionable movement. Yeah, you know, well,
Speaker 1: I think the evidence against Jeremy Bamber is really kind
Speaker 1: of thin. It doesn't it doesn't mean he didn't do it.
Speaker 1: But let's let's examine this. For example, there is absolutely
Speaker 1: no forensic evidence that links into the crime scene. I mean,
Speaker 1: his one of his fingerprints was found on the rifle,
Speaker 1: but he was handling the rifle just to night before.
Speaker 1: So you know, that's not exactly damning evidence. And are
Speaker 1: we doing handled it in the past, Are we doing
Speaker 1: theories now or I think we should? Well, yeah, I
Speaker 1: just you know, I just I'm just saying that. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to sum it up by saying, it's kind
Speaker 1: of remarkable that they got a conviction in this case,
Speaker 1: considering I think how thin their their their case really was. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the theories. So we got some some
Speaker 1: possible perpetrae ys here, and we've talked about some of
Speaker 1: this stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we have. Again, I
Speaker 1: wanted I wanted to talk about the cases for a
Speaker 1: little bit. I don't know if they were fingerprinted or not.
Speaker 1: I was that for all my looking, I was not
Speaker 1: able to find it. I know they I know they
Speaker 1: picked them up, they cataloged him. How many were in
Speaker 1: this room, how many in that room in Yadi Goda.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if they fingerprinted them. But if
Speaker 1: any of them had had had Sheila's fingerprints on them,
Speaker 1: a single one of them then I'm the case is solved, kid, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have no idea those things are still around, probably not.
Speaker 1: And if none of them had Sheila's fingerprints on them,
Speaker 1: it's a yeah, then there you go. That explains it too.
Speaker 1: And it would have been nice to take a look
Speaker 1: at the note that was in the viable because it
Speaker 1: probably was not a suicide note, but it would have
Speaker 1: been nice, you know, it would have been good if
Speaker 1: they could have at least taken a picture of it
Speaker 1: before they lost it. But we also mentioned, just briefly,
Speaker 1: the phone logs. It turns out there are records of
Speaker 1: a phone call from Neville as well this year. Right, yep,
Speaker 1: we talked about that. Okay, Uh, Sheila was on I
Speaker 1: think this is pronounced hello, parat al halo parat all.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's a NATI psychotic drug and
Speaker 1: some of some of which was was found in your
Speaker 1: system during the autopsy. Wait, so we've moved into theories
Speaker 1: and based on what we're talking about, we're talking about Okay,
Speaker 1: we're talking about Sheila did it? Okay, because I was sorry,
Speaker 1: I was sitting here. I'm like, okay, so we're talking
Speaker 1: more about Sheila was Okay, this is the justification that
Speaker 1: Sheila did it in the theory, Scott continue, Yeah, these
Speaker 1: are reasons to believe Sheila did it. She was on
Speaker 1: a drug. Yeah, so she was on I think it's
Speaker 1: halo pear at all or something like that. It's anti
Speaker 1: psychotic drugs. She had been on a HERD dose has
Speaker 1: just been reduced, right, Yeah. I had heard that they
Speaker 1: cut it in half. Yeah, so that was it was
Speaker 1: an injection she had. It was like a monthly thing,
Speaker 1: and so I don't know how long ago she had
Speaker 1: gotten her shirt. Her monthly and it was like a week.
Speaker 1: Just say it's a weekly. And I think I do
Speaker 1: want to mention while we're talking about the drugs that
Speaker 1: she was on and all that stuff. I know that
Speaker 1: perception is that people with schizophrenia are violent, but realistically,
Speaker 1: clinically that's not the case. In fact, people with schizophrenia
Speaker 1: are more often the victims of violent cases than perpetrators
Speaker 1: of violent cases. That's not to say that they can't
Speaker 1: go crazy sometimes, and and actually usually that's linked to
Speaker 1: drug use. And Sheila was using some drugs bipolar, so
Speaker 1: she would have fits of mania, which and so the
Speaker 1: whole thing was schizophrenia, right, is that very often you
Speaker 1: just disassociate from reality. You can't tell what's going on
Speaker 1: in your head and what's going on reality. She thought
Speaker 1: she was the devil, she thought, But I just want
Speaker 1: to make sure that because your mother called her the
Speaker 1: devil child. But I do think that were the devil too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she thought. She kind of thought everyone was the devil
Speaker 1: for a while, was a devil. Ye. So, but I
Speaker 1: do want to just mention that just because she schizophrenic
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that she was violent capable of something. But
Speaker 1: it does seem that her specific case, she might have
Speaker 1: been capable of something like this, and she might have
Speaker 1: actually just kind of been guano crazy. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: Uh see. Also another reason I suspect she could have
Speaker 1: done it is again I already mentioned this Neville. When
Speaker 1: they had their struggle, if there was between the two
Speaker 1: of them, had already been shot four times. She had
Speaker 1: a rifle to use as a club. She also had,
Speaker 1: like we talked about before, the relatively fresh blood. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the ones that the wounds in her neck. And it
Speaker 1: does like in the front the pictures, there's some nice
Speaker 1: close up pictures. I shouldn't say nice, it's you know
Speaker 1: they're but they're close up and they appeared the blood
Speaker 1: appears to be still fresh and wet and not coagulated.
Speaker 1: Not that's nice and bright red you know, have that
Speaker 1: dried blood. It's wet. Yeah, and it's thin too. That's
Speaker 1: the other thing, right, is that like, okay, if it
Speaker 1: is like thick, really gooey things of blood, well, if
Speaker 1: it was even if it was just a lot of blood,
Speaker 1: you would assume, Okay, it's maybe it hasn't a jailia,
Speaker 1: there's a lot there, but it's like it's pretty thin
Speaker 1: streams because it does appear that she was shot and
Speaker 1: then fell backwards, so it's not as though, you know,
Speaker 1: blood was rushing out of her. It was just trickles
Speaker 1: of blood. And it does it looks real fresh and well.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I will point out that
Speaker 1: I had noticed is that it is there two bullet
Speaker 1: wounds and they're pretty close together, but there, you know,
Speaker 1: they're I mean, it's what what is under the john?
Speaker 1: What is in the neck? Am I correct? Yeah? And
Speaker 1: they're about two inches apart or so. And when she
Speaker 1: fell backwards, you notice the blood runs in the same direction.
Speaker 1: In other words, the path of it is is pretty uniform.
Speaker 1: I mean they start to come together eventually, just because
Speaker 1: of the calling towards every neck. But it would have
Speaker 1: been pretty quick, one after the other, right, And there
Speaker 1: was that burnmark or something they originally there was, but
Speaker 1: there was a little powder burn there, so she definitely
Speaker 1: it was it was quick and it was point blank. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now it's like that they think the first one was
Speaker 1: maybe three inches away and then it's the second one
Speaker 1: was a contact. Yeah. And you know, I mean again,
Speaker 1: twenty two rifles don't aren't terribly noisy, but especially if
Speaker 1: you get it pressed up against your I guess your chin,
Speaker 1: it's not gonna make much noise at all. So it
Speaker 1: could have even happened. It probably happened when they were
Speaker 1: outside the house if it was Sheila. And also the
Speaker 1: defense team got a blood sample from they found Sheila's
Speaker 1: bile mom and they compared to her DNA to the
Speaker 1: DNA and the blood of the silencer. This is according
Speaker 1: to the defense team, and they say the blood of
Speaker 1: the silence here wasn't Sheila's um. So if that's true,
Speaker 1: then the only real physical evidence prosecution has, which is
Speaker 1: that the silencer had to have been on the gun
Speaker 1: because her blood was inside the silencer, and therefore she
Speaker 1: couldn't have committed suicide because she couldn't have reached the trigger.
Speaker 1: That whole theory is out the window. Well, it's also
Speaker 1: probably worth mentioning that the burn marks that were on
Speaker 1: her body, right, they were consistent with the muzzle of
Speaker 1: the gun. Not the same thing with Neville, That they
Speaker 1: were consistent with the muzzle of the gun, not the silencer.
Speaker 1: So I think that speaks pretty clearly to the fact
Speaker 1: that the silencer was probably not on when the attack
Speaker 1: was carried out. And you know, and this again comes
Speaker 1: back to my point of they're not very loud guns
Speaker 1: and people are a half a mile away, so over
Speaker 1: the course of let's say, half an hour, twenty gun
Speaker 1: shots that are from a twenty two rifle in a
Speaker 1: closed house probably aren't going to be heard, which is
Speaker 1: why the use of the suppressor is so just off
Speaker 1: kilter for me. They're far enough away it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to have been on the gun during this entire thing. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I mean it would make sense. I don't know, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe shoot the kids, shoot the kids first and then
Speaker 1: so nobody else knows. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is of course saying it's planned out, but I
Speaker 1: don't know, I know you've got more here for for
Speaker 1: the fact that Sheila is responsible. Yeah, so yeah, there's uh.
Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned that there's also has found gun experts,
Speaker 1: as we talked about. And then lastly, if I talked
Speaker 1: about this earlier, if Jeremy Bamber shot his sister Sheila,
Speaker 1: how did he do it without a struggle? Yeah, she
Speaker 1: had no signs of literally no signs of struggle on
Speaker 1: her right, not even bruises or anything. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: wouldn't she have had a strongest sent up to try
Speaker 1: to at least either fight back or try to get
Speaker 1: the hell out of the house, you know, And wouldn't
Speaker 1: have had to go and grab her and drag her back?
Speaker 1: Wouldn't she have that? They've made a lot about the
Speaker 1: fact that she had perfect fingernails and no break, no
Speaker 1: broken fingernails. Wouldn't she have been like following all over
Speaker 1: herself to unlock the door and get out of the
Speaker 1: house and keeps grabbing her pulling her back in? And well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I guess that comes a little bit back to
Speaker 1: me for the I don't know how strong the dosage
Speaker 1: of the medication she was on. I know it was
Speaker 1: cut in half, but I don't know. You know, some
Speaker 1: people are affected more by side effects than others. If
Speaker 1: she was dru was known to make people very sleepy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so she was heavily sedative. If that was one of
Speaker 1: the side effects she was experiencing, it would it would
Speaker 1: be it would make sense. But there's no mention of
Speaker 1: that being a side effect of hers. So yeah, and
Speaker 1: it seems like that would be a strong didn't set Yeah,
Speaker 1: there were there were people that were that had witnessed
Speaker 1: over the past day or two at the farm and
Speaker 1: said that she didn't seem seem normal. She didn't seem
Speaker 1: all drugged out or anything like that. Alright, So, so
Speaker 1: much for Sheila. So Sheila is a strong contender. I
Speaker 1: think I think she actually could be the guilty party here.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Jeremy bamber. So what do we got
Speaker 1: against him? What makes him like he goes to suspect
Speaker 1: So it's girlfriend. The girlfriend testified against him and said
Speaker 1: that he said all kinds of stuff. Her roommates testified
Speaker 1: that he had said that he hated his family. Again,
Speaker 1: though again that doesn't prove really much of anything year
Speaker 1: old bag, stupid thing. His extended family thinks that he
Speaker 1: did it, and in fact, those guys went to the
Speaker 1: police with their suspicions a long time before the girlfriend
Speaker 1: went to the police, and they said they thought Jeremy
Speaker 1: was a suspect, and he should be a suspect. It appears,
Speaker 1: you know, he didn't. He wasn't a great guy, but
Speaker 1: everybody thought he was insincere in his grief and that
Speaker 1: he was acting at the funerals. Uh. And then of
Speaker 1: course we talked about the big, huge grin in the
Speaker 1: bar after the funeral. Uh. You think in Bamber's defense
Speaker 1: and Jeremy Bamber's defense, it almost makes me think of
Speaker 1: Gone Girl. There's that scene where he some woman comes
Speaker 1: up and says, can I take my picture with you? Okay, sure,
Speaker 1: and just automatically smiles in the picture and he goes, oh, crap,
Speaker 1: that might not have been the best thing. And I
Speaker 1: can just see that same kind of weird brain process
Speaker 1: sitting in the back of the car person turns around
Speaker 1: like just kind of moons at him just because he
Speaker 1: didn't know what else to do. Okay. But also I
Speaker 1: will say again, you know, Joe has said this before.
Speaker 1: We reiterated again and again and again. Just because he
Speaker 1: didn't like his family, doesn't he kill them? They do
Speaker 1: not outside the realm of possibilities to say he did
Speaker 1: not like his family. He just inherited a bunch of
Speaker 1: money and he was happy that the growth that. It
Speaker 1: feels ikey to say, but it's totally possible. Just because
Speaker 1: he was happy his family was dead didn't doesn't mean
Speaker 1: he killed his family. Yeah. I don't remember Devon managing
Speaker 1: to ski herself out in a long time. Been a while.
Speaker 1: Good job, Yeah, let's see. And he had a lot
Speaker 1: of like anti character witnesses. One of the family's employees
Speaker 1: said that Jeremy was quote quite a nasty work unquote.
Speaker 1: They had a farm, and one of the farm hands
Speaker 1: reported that Jeremy was cruel to the animals, and then
Speaker 1: Neville Bamber's assistant, Barbara Wilson, said that Neville said to
Speaker 1: her once quote, I must never turned my back and
Speaker 1: that young man unquote. And he also told her in
Speaker 1: great confidence not long before the murders that he he
Speaker 1: felt that his life his life might be cut short
Speaker 1: and that he thinks it would be Jeremy probably a
Speaker 1: shooting accident, but he felt like there's a real possibility
Speaker 1: that Jeremy might be killing him. So that's another reason
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of suspective. Well, maybe some psychiatrists have
Speaker 1: have diagnosed it as being a psychopath, although I have
Speaker 1: to admit of the psychiatrists have said he's not. I
Speaker 1: read a really interesting thing, um, because this case came
Speaker 1: up on read it recently, and that is that the
Speaker 1: one where there's that mega long post about summarizing the
Speaker 1: whole thing that about thirteen comments undernew this one was
Speaker 1: what what case are you? What do you like it?
Speaker 1: Could this person could be just as innocent as they
Speaker 1: could be guilty, And one person said, um, you know
Speaker 1: what the thing is is that I like I just
Speaker 1: don't like Jeremy. Member he gives me the creeps, and
Speaker 1: I'm scared that I think he's guilty because I don't
Speaker 1: like him. And I think that's a really good thought,
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of times we're not willing
Speaker 1: to admit to ourselves that because this person gives me
Speaker 1: the creeps doesn't necessarily mean that they're a murderer, but
Speaker 1: it also doesn't mean they're innocent. It's hard this one's
Speaker 1: a hard one. Are they? I guess are they the
Speaker 1: only two people? Because I I kind of think there's
Speaker 1: a there's a third there's a third party. But no, Actually,
Speaker 1: I wanted to say one thing about Jeremy, even though
Speaker 1: I think there's no evidence whatsoever except for one thing,
Speaker 1: which is the lights were out when the popo, when
Speaker 1: the pepo got there and Jeremy got there, the lights
Speaker 1: in the house were out. They've never had gotten up
Speaker 1: to make his phone call. He would have turned the
Speaker 1: lights on. I guess it's cause seevable that if she
Speaker 1: wanted to rampage, she would have turned the lights off
Speaker 1: before she shot herself. But he would have done the
Speaker 1: rampage in the dark well now, but never would have
Speaker 1: turned the lights on to make his phone call. So
Speaker 1: he would have turned the lights on, and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: sure he wouldn't have shut the lights up and gone
Speaker 1: straight back to bed when he's got a looney sicho
Speaker 1: with a rifle roaming the house. But I guess he
Speaker 1: could have turned the lights off to try to hide
Speaker 1: from her. But he doesn't seem like the kind of
Speaker 1: hiding guy. It was a big guy, a big strong yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean sixty one or something like that. But he
Speaker 1: was still big guy. Yeah, It's not as if he
Speaker 1: was a weakling that was going to hide behind a chair. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I think. And it's if you want to, like, if
Speaker 1: you're running to get your shotgun or whatever, you want
Speaker 1: to have the lights on so you can see what
Speaker 1: you're shooting at. So, I mean, I guess it's conceivable
Speaker 1: that if Sheila did it, that after she got herself
Speaker 1: all cleaned up and everything, she would have shut the
Speaker 1: lights back off. Well, if she herself, I guess if
Speaker 1: she saw the cops arriving, because it's conceivable and actually
Speaker 1: likely given the amount of time between when the cops
Speaker 1: showed up and when they finally went into the house,
Speaker 1: that she was still alive when they showed up, that
Speaker 1: she heard the sirens or whatever and thought, okay, if
Speaker 1: these lights are on, they can see they can see me.
Speaker 1: Turn these lights off, or even that she was the
Speaker 1: female body she played dead in the kitchen right because
Speaker 1: they were hanging around, she waited until they walked away,
Speaker 1: creeped upstairs, turn you know, keeps the lights off. That
Speaker 1: she would have been trying to, I don't know, hide,
Speaker 1: preserve herself, something like that, or even that she had
Speaker 1: some sort of episode and realized what had happened and
Speaker 1: turned the lights off because she don't want to be
Speaker 1: around it, she didn't want to see it. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: all that stuff is possible. I'm just I'm just saying that,
Speaker 1: But I agree it's it is hinky the lights. The
Speaker 1: lights are a little hanky. I'm of course it could
Speaker 1: have been somebody else entirely. It didn't have to be
Speaker 1: necessarily just La or just Jeremy, somebody else. I think
Speaker 1: we do. We all think it's the same, do I say?
Speaker 1: On the kunt of three? Who we think the third
Speaker 1: person is? What? The cousins. I don't think the cousins
Speaker 1: did it. No, Actually I think the cousins called wolf.
Speaker 1: I think that the cousins cried wolf after staging some
Speaker 1: things that we see in the photos that weren't there before.
Speaker 1: Well exactly like the whole the whole silencer thing. I
Speaker 1: think that somebody went, hey, this got some blood on it?
Speaker 1: Where where where where I'm whacking it on the thing
Speaker 1: the mantel, Oh hey I'll take this home. Hey I
Speaker 1: know you brought that silencer home? Because they did, They
Speaker 1: didn't leave it in the house. They took it to
Speaker 1: their own home. You should call the cops. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's great, Like I can just see it because this
Speaker 1: family has just got They all got gobs of money
Speaker 1: out of this whole thing. Joe and I were actually
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that, um, there's also the possibility
Speaker 1: that Jeremy may have not done it, but we didn't
Speaker 1: mention might have engineered it. Oh yeah, we didn't mention that.
Speaker 1: The dinner conversation of the night was, Hey, Sheila, you're
Speaker 1: not doing so great. Remember how your sons were in
Speaker 1: foster care for a while. We're going to do that again. Yes,
Speaker 1: she probably did not react super great to that. And
Speaker 1: under the guise of oh I heard rabbits and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go kill them. Jeremy, you know, loads the gun,
Speaker 1: leaves it out instead of putting it away in the
Speaker 1: cabinet where it belongs, regardless of his intents, and says, hey, Sheila,
Speaker 1: that's not going to go super great for you. And
Speaker 1: there's there's a gun there, so so or you know
Speaker 1: new But we all have siblings, we all know how
Speaker 1: to push their buttons right that he would have said, oh,
Speaker 1: this is the button I need to push right now,
Speaker 1: to just drive her by the way. If this happens,
Speaker 1: your ex is going to end up with the kids
Speaker 1: and you're never going to see him again, and mom
Speaker 1: and dad are gonna lock you up, get you committed.
Speaker 1: So she thinks, okay, my only option is to kill
Speaker 1: She calls Jeremy. He says, all right, turn the lights off,
Speaker 1: you know whatever, right the lights, I'll bring yourself up.
Speaker 1: I'll be over there, comes with the police. She goes,
Speaker 1: oh crap, shoots herself, realizes she's the cousins, then realize, okay, uh,
Speaker 1: that didn't go super great for anyone. But Jeremy's a
Speaker 1: kind of shady guy. We don't think he deserves the money.
Speaker 1: We think he's kind of a jerk. And this he did,
Speaker 1: so we'll see what we can do. Fabricates, you know,
Speaker 1: just a few bits of key evidence, and he's in
Speaker 1: jail for that, and this whole thing is really hinges
Speaker 1: on a few key pieces of that all came out.
Speaker 1: That all happily came out after the cousins brought those
Speaker 1: And you know, your girlfriend had never come forward, this
Speaker 1: guy would have ever served a day exactly. It was
Speaker 1: her testimony only, So yeah, I think if that's true,
Speaker 1: there was four days, right, so they said, oh, hey, Julia,
Speaker 1: we here's things aren't going super great. You are you sure?
Speaker 1: That's what are you? Are you sure? Because here's here's
Speaker 1: a couple thousand pounds that says uh and a no
Speaker 1: jail time that says that maybe maybe that's not what
Speaker 1: Jeremy said to you. You know, for her, she might
Speaker 1: have realized it was the only way she was going
Speaker 1: to rule sixes. She had to. She just had to
Speaker 1: turn over on him and lie. So I'm not willing
Speaker 1: to necessarily say that anybody is free of guilt, but
Speaker 1: I also I don't. I think the evidence points I
Speaker 1: think it, but then you know, it's it is. It's
Speaker 1: genuinely one of those things where I think I'm like
Speaker 1: fifty five, I'm a little more. I'm a little more
Speaker 1: two thirds to once there then think at Sheila, although
Speaker 1: I do think it is a possibility that because after all,
Speaker 1: you know, when you've got a paranoid schizophrenic in the house,
Speaker 1: is it really a good idea to lead a leave
Speaker 1: a loaded rifle, particularly when they're probably having some sort
Speaker 1: of episode because they've received some bad news. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: might and their their medication is lower than he normally is,
Speaker 1: and then your family sprung something. Yeah, yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: it doesn't make him a murderer, just kind of means
Speaker 1: he pulled a sneaky one, that kind of crappy. See,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm and my is I'm seventy five, that
Speaker 1: she did the killing, I'm twenty five, that the police
Speaker 1: screwed it up so badly, and the cousins medaled so well, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that he was you know, he was the patsy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was. I think that it's I'm yeah, but he's
Speaker 1: most likely he's innocent. So that's especially Yeah, when if
Speaker 1: they see things like the two phone logs said that
Speaker 1: it appears and damn it, it's so too bad that
Speaker 1: they erased those tapes, you know, burned all the other evidence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and when it comes right down to it,
Speaker 1: Jeremy Bamber would have been infinitely better off if if
Speaker 1: his girlfriend had rolled over on him right away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that all that evidence would would have maybe been preserved. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it's too bad for him. And she didn't
Speaker 1: I'm sure mean to do him any favors, but she
Speaker 1: she didn't. I mean, what's the word I'm thinking up here.
Speaker 1: She didn't mean to do him any harm. Well she did, obviously,
Speaker 1: she didn't mean to No, that was none of it
Speaker 1: was deliberate. She didn't like, oh, I'm gonna wait exactly
Speaker 1: a month because I know twenty eight days. No, it
Speaker 1: wasn't at all. But anyway, the whole thing is just
Speaker 1: really ashamed. I mean, I kind of hope he did
Speaker 1: do it because he's been in jail now for thirty yeah,
Speaker 1: almost thirty years, you know, so I kind of almost
Speaker 1: hope he did do it, because if he didn't do it, then,
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's more. Yeah, it really is. Alright, Well,
Speaker 1: if you guys have any guys have any other thoughts
Speaker 1: or theories or anything. I think that I don't really
Speaker 1: know what I think. Jeremy Bamber may just be innocent.
Speaker 1: I think it's possible. I think it's likely. Actually, uh, anyway,
Speaker 1: well that's that. I'm just gonna do a little, um,
Speaker 1: a little book keeping here to rep this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you want to know what our website is. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you probably already know, but in case you don't, our
Speaker 1: website is thinking Sideways podcast dot com. It's a place
Speaker 1: where you can listen to episodes. You can leave comments
Speaker 1: so you can check our links to various informational stuff. Um.
Speaker 1: You can also find us on iTunes. Subscribe, review us
Speaker 1: a nice review, preferably you know, it's not required. As
Speaker 1: far as streaming, it's anywhere. There's lots. There's millions, billions
Speaker 1: and billions of them streaming services. Well maybe not that
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of them. We are on Facebook. We
Speaker 1: have we have our our page, and we also have
Speaker 1: a group, right yeah, yeah, and so like us, follow us,
Speaker 1: like us and follow us joint friend us, don't friend us.
Speaker 1: We don't do anything on our regular page. Okay, what else?
Speaker 1: We were on the Twitter? We are thinking Sideways. That's
Speaker 1: with that that g and of course we have an
Speaker 1: email it's Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com and
Speaker 1: the Sidebreddit don't care called thinking Sideways. Yeah, I just
Speaker 1: just find us. These guys always look at me like
Speaker 1: I'm crazy. No, I know you've been championing, championing these
Speaker 1: subred getting there, Oh yeah for sure. Last of all,
Speaker 1: we were on Patreon. Patreon is like where you go
Speaker 1: if you want to pledge a certain amount of money
Speaker 1: per episode. It's like run for the arts. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like that yeah podcast that's totally optional, but if
Speaker 1: you feel like doing that, if you want to support us,
Speaker 1: because you know, actually would just paid the bill for
Speaker 1: our hosting for the Yeah, we appreciate all that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, keep going. Yeah, Patreon dot com forward slash
Speaker 1: thicking sideways And that's it. So anyway, everybody, Next week
Speaker 1: we'll be back with another hard hitting mystery. Yeah alright,
Speaker 1: a couple of them. Yeah alright, bye bye bye, guys,