Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Hi everybody.
Speaker 1: First up, we have Parker Palmer, who is the founder
Speaker 1: and senior partner of the Center for Courage and Renewal.
Speaker 1: He's the author of many books and as an interesting point,
Speaker 1: he has more honorary doctor it's in addition to his
Speaker 1: PhD than books he has written. Hi, Parker, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for finding a couple of minutes to come on
Speaker 1: and talk with us. It was good to be with
Speaker 1: you again, Eric. Yes, it is nice to be with
Speaker 1: you and nice to see you. I just heard some
Speaker 1: birds outside your window as you were You and I
Speaker 1: were sort of talking about and makes me think about,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I'm finding particularly
Speaker 1: comforting in these difficult times. And I find comforting lots
Speaker 1: of times when the human world seems to be crazy
Speaker 1: as a nature. Absolutely, that's always been one of the
Speaker 1: best therapies for me. And at the same time, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm so aware of what different social locations we occupied
Speaker 1: as this pandemic pressent down on our lives. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm one of the lucky ones who has nature nearby
Speaker 1: to get out into the woods and take some nice
Speaker 1: walks here in Madison, Wisconsin. And I'm I'm also one
Speaker 1: of the lucky ones in that I'm a person who's
Speaker 1: worked in a home office for forty years, so being
Speaker 1: housebound isn't a big deal for me. I have enough
Speaker 1: resources to not have to worry about paying next month's
Speaker 1: rent or putting food on the table for a family.
Speaker 1: Um and so many people and obviously I don't have
Speaker 1: to show up in a workplace. So many people are
Speaker 1: not in my situation. So I think this is holy
Speaker 1: ground because it's occupied by such a wide range of
Speaker 1: human beings. And it seems to me that one of
Speaker 1: the big opportunities in a crisis like this is to
Speaker 1: become aware, more keenly aware of your place in the
Speaker 1: human ecosystem, and in my is to have to have
Speaker 1: great gratitude for it. You know. The downside for me
Speaker 1: is that I'm eighty one and I have some underlying
Speaker 1: health conditions, so I'm one of those at risk people.
Speaker 1: But I've been thinking a lot about folks who live
Speaker 1: their whole lives at risk um not because of age
Speaker 1: or health, but because of race or religion, nationality, gender,
Speaker 1: sexual orientation, poverty, And so I think it's very therapeutic
Speaker 1: for me to use this crisis not as a time
Speaker 1: to ask why me, but a time to ask why
Speaker 1: not me? And to become very aware of how many
Speaker 1: folks are much more vulnerable than I am. That's a
Speaker 1: really great point, and I share those sentiments. I know
Speaker 1: that I am especially blessed in so many different ways,
Speaker 1: and it's easy to see that, and I keep sort
Speaker 1: of reminding myself, like when I start to feel a
Speaker 1: little bit anxious and just go, well, that's good. And
Speaker 1: where other people more affected, where people suffering more? Where
Speaker 1: can we help, and I think that's such a great perspective.
Speaker 1: It's one way of dealing with what's happening underneath it.
Speaker 1: And then there's still even when we recognize all those things,
Speaker 1: there's still this underlying anxiety so many people are feeling,
Speaker 1: even if they are somewhat better situated. It's anxiety inducing
Speaker 1: potential is nearly unlimited because we have no freaking idea
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, and we do not do well
Speaker 1: with uncertainty on that kind of scale. And it's huge, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. It is that You're absolutely right, Eric, it
Speaker 1: is huge. One way I've been framing it in my
Speaker 1: own mind is to say that, you know, throughout life,
Speaker 1: we have experiences where we suddenly realize that, contrary to
Speaker 1: what our ego believes, we are not in control of
Speaker 1: a lot of things. And this is a is a
Speaker 1: global global exerous is in being not in control again,
Speaker 1: something that a lot of people on this planet no
Speaker 1: better than I do, because they've never been able to
Speaker 1: afford the illusion or the circumstances of their lives don't
Speaker 1: create the illusion that they're in control. But my life has,
Speaker 1: and so I need to take this as as an
Speaker 1: opportunity to do some big learning around the fact that
Speaker 1: when it comes to matters of life and death, I'm
Speaker 1: not in control of anything, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: the therapy is partly to embrace that fact as fully
Speaker 1: as I possibly can, just to not to not fight it,
Speaker 1: you know, to not say, oh, if we could only
Speaker 1: do this or that, you know, everything would be fine,
Speaker 1: because it wouldn't be. I don't stand at those levers
Speaker 1: of power. At the same time, I think it's very
Speaker 1: important to counter balance that with being attentive to what
Speaker 1: I can control. I can control my own behavior. You
Speaker 1: do the things that are being recommended now, self quarantine, uh,
Speaker 1: stay out of crowds, you know, change my normal habits.
Speaker 1: And the deeper we get into this, the more upside
Speaker 1: I'm finding in that more opportunities to take those walks
Speaker 1: that we were talking about, to be with trees rather
Speaker 1: than people, and more opportunities to reflect deeply on my situation,
Speaker 1: our situation, the situation. I think for me, learning has
Speaker 1: always been a huge therapeutic tool. You and I have
Speaker 1: talked before, and I have written, as you know, a
Speaker 1: lot about three experiences of deep depression in my one
Speaker 1: years of life and I have to say that when
Speaker 1: I had the good fortune to sort of start coming
Speaker 1: through that profound darkness, what really started healing and advancing
Speaker 1: my life was learning what I could from having gone
Speaker 1: there and realizing how precious an ordinary day is. You know,
Speaker 1: what a wonderful thing it is to be able to
Speaker 1: get up at five thirty if that's when you want
Speaker 1: to get up, rather than feeling that you want to
Speaker 1: hide out in bed until noon. What a wonderful thing
Speaker 1: it is to be able to have an idea and
Speaker 1: to start writing about it or talking with a friend
Speaker 1: about it, all these simple things to watch a sunrise
Speaker 1: with a cup of coffee in your hand. The learning
Speaker 1: that comes from being lost in the dark or from
Speaker 1: a circumstance of this sort that feels oppressive and imprisoning
Speaker 1: for me is a great piece of therapy. Yeah, I agree,
Speaker 1: I agree completely. I think also that idea of what
Speaker 1: you're you're hinting at a little bit is what is
Speaker 1: the learning or the opportunity that's in the situation we're facing.
Speaker 1: I hear some people talking in ways that feel a
Speaker 1: little cavalier to me, like when they're like, well, every
Speaker 1: problem is a blessing in disguise, and well, let's slow down,
Speaker 1: like this is not a blessing for a lot a
Speaker 1: lot of people. So that feels a little cavalier to me.
Speaker 1: And yet I I recognize from my own work, in
Speaker 1: my own practice, that difficult situations and changes of this
Speaker 1: nature they give us the opportunity to bring something different out.
Speaker 1: It allows us to approach things differently, see things differently,
Speaker 1: do things differently. And even though I wouldn't say, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a blessing that this is happening, we can find
Speaker 1: positive things that come out of what is happening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to quote a known cliche, it's it's a it's an
Speaker 1: example of making lemonade when you're giving lemon that's right,
Speaker 1: that's right. And I'm a big believer in the Socratic
Speaker 1: maxim that the unexamined life is not worth living. And
Speaker 1: most of us live our days without examining ourselves or others,
Speaker 1: our relationship to others, the world in which we all live.
Speaker 1: We we live our days without paying attention to much
Speaker 1: of that because everything is fine. But when everything isn't fine,
Speaker 1: either through you know, personal failures and fallings, or through
Speaker 1: social circumstances of the sort that we're living in now,
Speaker 1: and we'll be living in for a long time to come.
Speaker 1: Then we have a chance to think about a whole
Speaker 1: lot of things, to examine a whole lot of things
Speaker 1: more profoundly. I'm frankly hoping, and this too is therapeutic
Speaker 1: for me, that this crisis will cause Americans to think
Speaker 1: more seriously about their political choices and decisions. For example,
Speaker 1: I'm aware of people I know who has recently as
Speaker 1: a month were when they had an opportunity railing against
Speaker 1: big government and what they think mistakenly call socialism. And
Speaker 1: now those same people are demanding federal intervention on every level,
Speaker 1: from healthcare to corporate bailouts, two fixes in the free
Speaker 1: market that will save their four oh one case. And
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if they will learn from that. I'm wondering, if,
Speaker 1: you know, when the economy gets a little more back
Speaker 1: into into balance, if they will remember that big government
Speaker 1: is not all bad, and federal rescue programs for people
Speaker 1: in need aren't all bad. I'm wondering if opinions will
Speaker 1: change about what's what's disparagingly called welfare, you know, for
Speaker 1: for for people who weren't born on second or third
Speaker 1: base and who had two or three strikes against them
Speaker 1: today they came into this world. I'm hoping that we
Speaker 1: can all do a lot of serious political reflection. To me,
Speaker 1: that not only means who we vote for and why,
Speaker 1: but it means how we talk to each other as
Speaker 1: we the people, how we try to sort this out,
Speaker 1: not just alone or not just in our in our
Speaker 1: silos and our lifestyle enclaves, but across lines of divide.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if if there's some way to turn this
Speaker 1: toward healing for our wounded body politic. There are some
Speaker 1: signs that that might be happening, and then there are
Speaker 1: signs that it's simply driving us even further into our
Speaker 1: political divisions, um, you know, across the battle line. That
Speaker 1: would be a very sad outcome. Indeed, if it if
Speaker 1: it's simply hardened our divisions, I agree it. It will
Speaker 1: be interesting to see how how that turns out. But
Speaker 1: I do there is there is opportunity for us to
Speaker 1: come together. That is one of the possibilities, and I
Speaker 1: think it's one that's worth worth speaking. As we near
Speaker 1: wrapping up here, are there any sort of thoughts or
Speaker 1: practical ideas you'd have for people to care for their
Speaker 1: mental and emotional health during this period. I'm a big
Speaker 1: believer in taking an opportunity like this if you can
Speaker 1: to slow down and even stop with a lot of
Speaker 1: what you're doing now. Again, I know there are people
Speaker 1: who still have to show up at work. I know
Speaker 1: there are people who depend on showing up at work
Speaker 1: every day to get the bills paid. Um I work
Speaker 1: at home. I can continue to do a lot of
Speaker 1: my work as a writer online, so I don't face
Speaker 1: that particular dilemma. But you know, we all know the
Speaker 1: stories of people slowing down and reflecting inwardly even when
Speaker 1: they're living fast paced or hard pressed external lives. We
Speaker 1: know the story of a Nelson Mandela or others who
Speaker 1: have been imprisoned using that time to reflect deeply, to
Speaker 1: get in touch with the imperatives of their soul, and
Speaker 1: to draw on those imperatives to animate them into action
Speaker 1: when the crisis begins to ease. So I think this
Speaker 1: is possible, even if you have to keep moving or
Speaker 1: keep surviving, And we come out of something like that
Speaker 1: as I think truer and therefore more powerful people who
Speaker 1: have kind of tapped into our depths rather than skimming
Speaker 1: along on the surface, the way we so often do
Speaker 1: in what we finally think of as ordinary life. It
Speaker 1: really isn't ordinary life. It's just it's just generating the
Speaker 1: illusion of being ordinary. This is as as ordinary as
Speaker 1: anything else over the course of human history. So I'll
Speaker 1: construct a little parallel here that's probably largely bogus, but
Speaker 1: it comes to me anyway. At a ad one, I've
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of people who are at sixty
Speaker 1: five or seventy and they say, I'm about to retire
Speaker 1: or to be retired, so help me to find find
Speaker 1: an activity that I can fill my hours with, my
Speaker 1: empty hours with, because they're afraid of empty hours. And
Speaker 1: my constant advice has been no, don't make that your
Speaker 1: first move when you retire. Use retirement initially as an
Speaker 1: opportunity to find out who you are in a way
Speaker 1: that you weren't able to do in the course of
Speaker 1: your active and engaged life. Take value time and space,
Speaker 1: Value emptiness. You know, value those moments in life when
Speaker 1: everything is up for grabs and you can't figure you're
Speaker 1: out the meaning of anything. That's a chance to get
Speaker 1: closer to the truth about who you are, about others,
Speaker 1: about the world. You know, there's this this interesting word
Speaker 1: in our in our language, in the English language, Derek, disillusionment.
Speaker 1: I've always been struck by how when somebody comes to
Speaker 1: us and says, I'm just terribly disillusioned, which of course
Speaker 1: it's what a lot of people are feeling right now,
Speaker 1: are instant instinct is to put an arm around their
Speaker 1: shoulders and say, oh, I'm so sorry, how can I
Speaker 1: help you? Disillusionment is in fact the process of losing
Speaker 1: an illusion, and it's a good thing. We should be
Speaker 1: saying your disillusion congratulations. That means you've lost an illusion
Speaker 1: and you're that much closer to reality, to truth about yourself,
Speaker 1: about the world, about something. And our question ought to
Speaker 1: be how can I disillusion you further? Because that's an
Speaker 1: important journey to take towards the bedrock ground of reality.
Speaker 1: And I think this is a big opportunity for people
Speaker 1: around the world to understand realities that we in the
Speaker 1: developed world, the most highly developed countries, and we who
Speaker 1: have most benefited from relative affluence. It's a journey we
Speaker 1: don't we don't take because we have the obstacle of stuff,
Speaker 1: material well being obscuring our vision. So I'd say, you know, once,
Speaker 1: once you've got over the punch in the gut, get
Speaker 1: disillusioned and make the most of it wonderful. Well, I
Speaker 1: think that is a great place for us to wrap up.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for spending in a few
Speaker 1: minutes with us. It's always a pleasure. Thank you, Eric. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for this program. I'm sure that's what other
Speaker 1: folks say are going to be helped with a lot
Speaker 1: of people be well. Coming up next is Mirabi Star.
Speaker 1: She is a writer and translator and speaks and leads
Speaker 1: retreats on the intra spiritual teachings of the Mystics. Hi, Mirabi,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming back on to spend
Speaker 1: a couple of minutes with us. It's an honor. Eric,
Speaker 1: thank you for thinking of me and reaching out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, what I'm doing with these short segments is
Speaker 1: just trying to get some thoughts from some different people
Speaker 1: we've had on the show who I respect and admire,
Speaker 1: and kind of some of your thoughts on how to
Speaker 1: cope with these difficult and uncertain times. I think we're
Speaker 1: all feeling a lot of emotions, and the goal isn't
Speaker 1: that we make those emotions go away, but just some
Speaker 1: ideas you have on coping. Oh sure, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: of course right in the middle of it myself and
Speaker 1: and grappling with my own um challenges, that is, challenges
Speaker 1: to my piece of mind. But one of the things
Speaker 1: that's really striking me is that we are being invited
Speaker 1: to abide in a space of not knowing right now,
Speaker 1: and that is counterintuitive, especially to the Western mind that
Speaker 1: is so solutions driven. That's not to say that we
Speaker 1: shouldn't figure out ideal scenarios and act accordingly, but it's
Speaker 1: more than anything, the solutions seemed to be not engineering
Speaker 1: solutions so much as stopping and being like even as
Speaker 1: a society, we're being asked to disengage and to turn inward,
Speaker 1: which is an age old mystical practice. You know from
Speaker 1: the dow Da King that that says over and over
Speaker 1: again that the way of wisdom is to yield and
Speaker 1: to allow and allow what is law, the laws of nature,
Speaker 1: to take take their course or whatever, and to stop
Speaker 1: trying to exert our own will. In the Jewish mystical tradition,
Speaker 1: there's a similar kind of wisdom in the Sabbath, which
Speaker 1: in Judaism is the holiest of all holy days, and
Speaker 1: it happens every single week, and the the underlying teaching
Speaker 1: of the Sabbath is, yes, about rest, but maybe more
Speaker 1: radically and subversively, it's about ceasing from our efforts to
Speaker 1: bend the world to the shape that we think it
Speaker 1: should be and and instead yielding to what is. And
Speaker 1: for those of us who are activists, you know, just
Speaker 1: for justice and environmental justice and social justice, not doing
Speaker 1: is counter to everything that our souls are telling us,
Speaker 1: which is how can I help? But it's not either
Speaker 1: or I mean, it's it's just so paradoxical that actually
Speaker 1: the way we can help right now is literally to
Speaker 1: stay put, to stay in our homes and to walk
Speaker 1: in nature, but to stay away from other humans and
Speaker 1: gathering spaces when we just feel like we've got to
Speaker 1: come together and do something. So there are ways to
Speaker 1: do something, and one of those ways is literally to
Speaker 1: stop participating in the machine of doing and buying and
Speaker 1: consuming and all of that, to just lighten our footprint
Speaker 1: for a minute and turn inward collectively and individually. So
Speaker 1: I just find that so interesting that that is the
Speaker 1: thing to do, is to not do and to be Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a potentially unique opportunity to, as you said,
Speaker 1: slow down and spend a little bit more focus on
Speaker 1: the things that are close to us, you know, not
Speaker 1: not the things that are We're always rushing to get somewhere,
Speaker 1: to go, to go, do something, be somewhere, and this
Speaker 1: is really an opportunity to pay closer attention to the
Speaker 1: things that are close to us right where we are.
Speaker 1: That might mean our family, it might mean our spiritual practice,
Speaker 1: it might mean reading, but to really re orient ourselves
Speaker 1: in that way. Yeah, And it's it is sort of
Speaker 1: a subversive thing because it also look at what's happening
Speaker 1: to the economy. It also goes along with pulling back
Speaker 1: from our conditioning to over consume, you know, the Earth's resources,
Speaker 1: and by collectively pulling back on that because we're forced to,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's sending the economy into chaos, of course,
Speaker 1: but I think it's really helping a lot of us
Speaker 1: re orient towards what we really need and what is essential.
Speaker 1: And I feel like our mother, the Earth, is begging
Speaker 1: us to reconsider, you know, what is what is essential
Speaker 1: and to started embracing things that don't cost money or
Speaker 1: tax the Earth's um well being. So music and reading,
Speaker 1: and it's spiritual practice, and all of the arts, all
Speaker 1: of the things that that don't require the expenditure of
Speaker 1: personal resources and the taxing of the earth, you know,
Speaker 1: are going to become I think, more valuable to us collectively,
Speaker 1: and at least that's that's my hope, is that we
Speaker 1: can return to what really matters, and that after this
Speaker 1: crisis of this illness has passed, that we will retain
Speaker 1: the recalibration of our souls and our and our values
Speaker 1: and and recommit to the beauty, to experiences of and
Speaker 1: sharing of beauty in this world. I love that. And
Speaker 1: so one of the things you referenced early on is
Speaker 1: this not knowing, and that seems to be one of
Speaker 1: the hardest places for us humans to abide. And yet
Speaker 1: we are in a period of deep and profound not knowing.
Speaker 1: None of us know what is going to happen. None
Speaker 1: of us know how this is going to turn out,
Speaker 1: none of us know how long this lasts, what comes next.
Speaker 1: There's so much anxiety around the unknown. What are some
Speaker 1: ways of relaxing into not knowing, relaxing into the unknown,
Speaker 1: because that does seem to be a big part of
Speaker 1: what we all have to learn to do in this time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's such an beautiful, important question, Eric, and um one
Speaker 1: that I sit with a lot. The mystical teachings of
Speaker 1: all the spiritual traditions all all point to the sacred
Speaker 1: holy wonder of our inability to know and urge us
Speaker 1: to let ourselves down into that nakedness of spirit. In
Speaker 1: the Christian mystical tradition, it's the Cloud of Unknowing by
Speaker 1: the anonymous medieval author and also St. John of the
Speaker 1: Cross Dark Knight of the Soul, the sixteenth century Spanish
Speaker 1: mystic whose master work I've had the great privilege of
Speaker 1: translating from Spanish to English Dark Knight of the Goal,
Speaker 1: which is not necessarily about navigating difficult times, although that
Speaker 1: difficult experiences can be a catalyst for this spiritual emergency here,
Speaker 1: or a crisis known as the Dark Knight of the Soul.
Speaker 1: But rather it's about allowing ourselves to surrender to the
Speaker 1: awesome mystery of the divine and let all of our
Speaker 1: ideas about what's real and true and um, certainly with
Speaker 1: regard to spiritual life, just fall away. So John of
Speaker 1: the Cross speaks about that, it's as if the great
Speaker 1: master artist wants to paint your portrait because you are
Speaker 1: the most beautiful creature she ever created. And so I'm
Speaker 1: just saying she because this is what I do now,
Speaker 1: just fool around, why not, and just trying to to
Speaker 1: rebalance five thousand years of patriarchy a little bit. Um.
Speaker 1: So she asks you to pose for her so she
Speaker 1: can paint your portrait. Johnathan Cross says, and so you do.
Speaker 1: You're very flattered, of course, holy one. I'm happy to
Speaker 1: pose for your portrait. I'm glad you find me beautiful.
Speaker 1: And you you pose, and then you're sitting there for
Speaker 1: a really long time while the master is creating her masterpiece.
Speaker 1: And then after a bit you feel like, huh, I've
Speaker 1: just been sitting here. I should probably do something to
Speaker 1: contribute to this project. And so you strike a different pose,
Speaker 1: thinking that it might be more fetching or alluring. And
Speaker 1: what are you doing when you do that? You are interfering,
Speaker 1: John says, with the master. The Master's work and your
Speaker 1: only task is to be still and be your beautiful
Speaker 1: self and let her create, um, this this masterpiece. And Roumi,
Speaker 1: who was at century Sufi mystic from Persia Persian mystic
Speaker 1: Turkey is where he died. And Roomy, who so many
Speaker 1: people know through his beautiful translations by Coleman Barx and
Speaker 1: Robert Bly speaks a lot in his ecstatic, beautiful love
Speaker 1: poetry to God about this the same thing. And I
Speaker 1: have in front of me in fact um, a roomy
Speaker 1: poem that's been giving me comfort, that was translated by
Speaker 1: Andrew Harvey. So maybe i'll I'll close with this and
Speaker 1: see if it speaks to you all. And again I'm
Speaker 1: going to pronounce to the feminine, so you should know
Speaker 1: that that's what's happening. It's called the grapes of my body.
Speaker 1: The grapes of my body can only become wine after
Speaker 1: the winemaker tramples me. I surrender my spirit like grapes
Speaker 1: to her trampling, so that my inmost heart can blaze
Speaker 1: and dance with joy. Although the grapes go on weeping
Speaker 1: blood and sobbing. I cannot bear any more anguish, any
Speaker 1: more cruelty. The winemaker stuffs cotton in her ears. I
Speaker 1: am not working in ignorance. You can deny me if
Speaker 1: you want, you have every reason, But it is I
Speaker 1: who am the master of this work. And when through
Speaker 1: my passion you reach perfection. You will never stop praising
Speaker 1: my name. Mhm. That's a lovely poem and I think
Speaker 1: that is a lovely place for us to wrap up.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your
Speaker 1: wisdom with us. Oh it is. It's an honor, Eric,
Speaker 1: and blessings to all of you who are grappling with
Speaker 1: these strange times. May you find a sabbath space in
Speaker 1: your soul right now. Thank you so much. You're welcome,
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. Our next guest is Lewis Howes, who
Speaker 1: has done many things. He's been an athlete and a
Speaker 1: podcast host and an author. He is perhaps best known
Speaker 1: for being the host of the podcast The School of Greatness. Hi, Lewis,
Speaker 1: it's good to have you on again. Thanks, I appreciate it. Man.
Speaker 1: We are getting some folks together and and the point
Speaker 1: of these conversations is just to get some thoughts on
Speaker 1: you on how people can really manage their mainly their
Speaker 1: mental and emotional health. As we're going through this, right,
Speaker 1: there's so much that's out of our control. There's so
Speaker 1: much that we we can't do. There's so much we
Speaker 1: don't know. But what we do know is that how
Speaker 1: we respond to this really is the issue. You know,
Speaker 1: how we each personally respond. Well, I think you already
Speaker 1: said it. I think your whole podcast admission is to
Speaker 1: contain need to remind people about which wolf to feed
Speaker 1: inside of you. And as this is all unfolded over
Speaker 1: the last I guess week for me, since it's happened, um,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people that have been reactive
Speaker 1: and constantly consuming the negativity and the fear based mentality
Speaker 1: around it, and they're feeding that I guess bad wolf.
Speaker 1: And right when things started to happen, I came from
Speaker 1: more of a place of calm and peace, just because
Speaker 1: I've been trained that way over the years. I haven't
Speaker 1: always been that way, but I've been trained that way,
Speaker 1: and I know that you can't control what happens around you,
Speaker 1: or the events that around you, or what people say
Speaker 1: or do. What you can control how you respond once
Speaker 1: you have the training and you're prepared, and I think
Speaker 1: we just need to think about if you don't have
Speaker 1: the training, you can start training right now through simple reminders.
Speaker 1: When you're talking or consuming content that's negative for fear
Speaker 1: based or you're having that anxious or worry mentality, then
Speaker 1: one practice can be to take your shoes and socks
Speaker 1: off and literally just feel you're the bottom of your
Speaker 1: feet on the ground, standing up and just taking deep breasts,
Speaker 1: or you can sit down and take deep breasts and
Speaker 1: just have your bare feet on the ground to ground
Speaker 1: yourself and put your attention on your feet as opposed
Speaker 1: to the noise and the media or anxiety, worrying, stress,
Speaker 1: and fear of the future. And that's just one simple
Speaker 1: practice you can take right now. Anytime you go to
Speaker 1: that negative place, you can just ask yourself, is this
Speaker 1: supporting me and becoming a bigger leader, a better leader,
Speaker 1: someone who leads with love, with peace, with calm, And
Speaker 1: you definitely don't want to distance yourself too much from
Speaker 1: reality and facts and what's happening and making sure you're
Speaker 1: safe and aware and all those things. But when it
Speaker 1: gets to a place of mental stress, mental overwhelm, well
Speaker 1: you know, we just are unable to make better decisions
Speaker 1: from that place. And so I think it's just have
Speaker 1: the information and clear, you know, have things understandable of
Speaker 1: what's happening. But when you've noticed you're going to a
Speaker 1: place of fear, connect your feet to the ground and
Speaker 1: take a deep breath for sixty seconds until you can
Speaker 1: calm your mind then make a decision after that. That's
Speaker 1: for me, it's just going back to the basics during
Speaker 1: this time. We don't know what's going to happen. We
Speaker 1: don't know the future, but we do know what we
Speaker 1: can control right now, and that's putting our thoughts on
Speaker 1: our attention into something more neutral, more grounded, more positive.
Speaker 1: That's a great, very basic practice, just kind of coming
Speaker 1: back into the body out of the mind. You know,
Speaker 1: where it's our mind is where where fear tends to
Speaker 1: get fed. We feel it in the body often, but
Speaker 1: the body can also be a way of grounding us.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that a lot
Speaker 1: of people, you know, and it's worth thinking about, and
Speaker 1: I know I've been talking with a lot of coaching
Speaker 1: clients about is trying to get a sense of like, alright,
Speaker 1: how much news and information do I need right now?
Speaker 1: How much is going to serve me? And being prepared
Speaker 1: and understanding and responding, and then how much of this
Speaker 1: is me just sort of as uh as the poet
Speaker 1: Mark Nepo says that, you know, being addicted to the
Speaker 1: noise of things falling apart, Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: really easy for us to just I mean, I've got
Speaker 1: my Apple Watch on right now, I've got my iPhone
Speaker 1: and I get these news notifications just from CNN or
Speaker 1: other stuff that just pops up on the the Apple devices,
Speaker 1: and it's really easy to see, oh, there's another hundred
Speaker 1: people have died or this or that or whatever, and
Speaker 1: for me, it's just turned it off. You're gonna hear
Speaker 1: the information. You can't escape it completely. Someone's gonna tell
Speaker 1: you something. You're gonna get the news, and you can
Speaker 1: schedule to look at it once a day if you
Speaker 1: need to know all the information. But other than having
Speaker 1: the information, it's like you're just creating a train wreck
Speaker 1: in your mind over and over again. If you look
Speaker 1: at this stuff all day long. Imagine being outside and
Speaker 1: seeing a car crash in front of you, but seeing
Speaker 1: it happen, you know, every two minutes throughout the entire day.
Speaker 1: If you witnessed a car crash and witness people in
Speaker 1: pain and fear, you would create that in your own
Speaker 1: body and in your own mind. So you need to
Speaker 1: remove yourself from seeing the car crashes on social media
Speaker 1: and the news on TV all the time. Look at
Speaker 1: it once a day for a few minutes as opposed
Speaker 1: to every few minutes, and you'll just have more peace
Speaker 1: in your mind. You can go back to your vision
Speaker 1: of how can I be a better leader for myself,
Speaker 1: leader for my intimate partner, my family, my friends, my community,
Speaker 1: How can I lead in times of uncertainty as opposed
Speaker 1: to be the one that needs to be lead? And
Speaker 1: this is work we all get to continue to do,
Speaker 1: whether we're great leaders or we're followers, are trying to
Speaker 1: become better leaders, whatever it may be. I have to
Speaker 1: work on this too, and I get to work on
Speaker 1: this every single moment. When my girlfriend wants to remind
Speaker 1: me of all the craziness that's happening, I'm saying, yes,
Speaker 1: this is not going to slow down. And how can
Speaker 1: we choose to respond in a loving, peaceful, or powerful
Speaker 1: place in this moment as opposed to running in circles
Speaker 1: of watching the car crash every two minutes. I think
Speaker 1: that's just what we get to create out of this base.
Speaker 1: This environment, as unfortunate and and as it is, and
Speaker 1: how it's nothing like this has ever happened in my lifetime,
Speaker 1: is weird as it sounds. I get excited about the
Speaker 1: opportunity for growth. You know, we're all going through this together.
Speaker 1: How can we choose to make the most of this
Speaker 1: and find the meaning? You know, we may not know
Speaker 1: the reason why something is happening, why people are dying,
Speaker 1: why people are gonna say, why this virus got spread,
Speaker 1: why whatever any situation in life, but we can find
Speaker 1: the meaning in those moments. And for me, I don't
Speaker 1: understand a lot of things, but I create meaning from situations,
Speaker 1: from quote unquote bad times, from unfortunate times, and that's
Speaker 1: how I choose to get through it as finding meaning.
Speaker 1: So that's what I would reflect back on everyone listening
Speaker 1: is to really it's happened to like, what can I
Speaker 1: do to grow? And how can I learn and develop
Speaker 1: into a better leader of love and find meaning out
Speaker 1: of this even if bad things are happening around me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful reflection. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been about a week since everything went completely crazy
Speaker 1: here in the US, you know, and I think today
Speaker 1: feels like a day where for me, a lot of
Speaker 1: people are sort of were popping our heads kind of
Speaker 1: back up above water a little bit and going okay,
Speaker 1: I have a little bit of sense of the way
Speaker 1: things are going to look for a little while and
Speaker 1: it's gonna be weird, and you know, and I think
Speaker 1: that it's a good chance for us to do what
Speaker 1: I think is the core business of life all the time,
Speaker 1: which is to think about what really matters to me,
Speaker 1: what's important? How does my time need to reflect that
Speaker 1: and then live into it. And I think this is,
Speaker 1: you know, a good time to do that. And a
Speaker 1: lot of that stuff that the sort of ordinary that
Speaker 1: we had before, that's all been shaken up. So it's
Speaker 1: a great opportunity to really go what matters and how
Speaker 1: do I need to adjust my time? Okay, I'm working
Speaker 1: from home, now, what does that mean? What what's my
Speaker 1: responsibility to my work, to my family, to my I
Speaker 1: just think it's the time to for that deeper reflection. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And it's again I get excited about these opportunities, not
Speaker 1: because people are in paying or hurting or you know,
Speaker 1: out things are happening, but like you said, the time
Speaker 1: to reflect. Like I'm an intimate relationship with someone I've
Speaker 1: been with for about a year now, and I'm excited
Speaker 1: because you've got to find out quickly whether you actually
Speaker 1: want to be with the person that you're with because
Speaker 1: you'd be around them a lot more. Or if like
Speaker 1: there were things you were hiding under the rug or
Speaker 1: sweeping away just because it was a convenient and you
Speaker 1: had a place to escape. You no longer have a
Speaker 1: place to escape for the next few weeks essentially, or
Speaker 1: maybe longer, and you're gonna find out, like, is my
Speaker 1: life going in the direction that I wanted to go
Speaker 1: in my relationships? Last weekend, we cleaned out our whole place.
Speaker 1: I cleaned out all the like half my clothes I
Speaker 1: gave away, and I organized my close that I organized
Speaker 1: everything in my physical environment, and I felt like, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just holding onto things that don't support me, that
Speaker 1: I don't use, that are unnecessary. Why ask yourself, what
Speaker 1: are you holding onto and your relationships that you don't
Speaker 1: need to anymore it's not important to you, or maybe
Speaker 1: that relationship needs to red just or you need to
Speaker 1: let that person go for whatever reason. My finances, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm checking everything in my finances. I'm letting go of
Speaker 1: subscriptions that I don't need just because I had him
Speaker 1: on and it was convenient. But it's like, let's really
Speaker 1: pay attention to what you need what you don't need,
Speaker 1: what's important, like you said, and ask yourself this questions.
Speaker 1: So for me, the reflection time is beautiful and excites
Speaker 1: me to clean out the fat in my life, to
Speaker 1: feed the wolf that needs to be fed and not
Speaker 1: feed the wolf that is not serving me. Awesome. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that is a great place for us to
Speaker 1: wrap it up. Thanks so much Lewis for taking a
Speaker 1: little bit of time to come on and Uh, it's
Speaker 1: always a pleasure talking with you. Appreciate it, man, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Next we hear from Stephen C. Hayes, who is one
Speaker 1: of the founders of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. He is
Speaker 1: also the president of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive
Speaker 1: Therapy and the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science. In his
Speaker 1: spare time, he also has managed to write forty three
Speaker 1: books and more than six undred scientific articles. Hi, Stephen,
Speaker 1: thanks for taking a few minutes to join us again.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here with youre It's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you on. What I'm doing with these short
Speaker 1: little conversations is really just trying to provide people with
Speaker 1: some additional support for dealing with their thoughts and emotions.
Speaker 1: You know, their mental and emotional health as we go
Speaker 1: through this difficult time. So I'm wondering if you have
Speaker 1: a couple ideas or thoughts that people could be considering
Speaker 1: or doing or trying in this difficult time. Well, actually,
Speaker 1: there's a fair amount of research on the psychological flexibility
Speaker 1: the kind of things that we've talked about before that's
Speaker 1: reflected in the act work and in my work. And uh,
Speaker 1: it's been looked at in terms of how people come
Speaker 1: out on the other side of crises with violent storms
Speaker 1: or school shootings or violent crime or and so we
Speaker 1: kind of know some of the things that are important
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, it involves emotional cognitive openness. You've
Speaker 1: gotta make room for a kind of a variety of
Speaker 1: things and take the time really to notice that because
Speaker 1: some of what's there may surprise you. Don't be embarrassed.
Speaker 1: For example, if you find dark humor, or if you
Speaker 1: start to tear up unexpected they or you get cranky
Speaker 1: about something you normally wouldn't, or you reminisce. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you have something like this, it stirs the pop
Speaker 1: and so you want to take the time to feel,
Speaker 1: choose to feel, and when you do that, it gives
Speaker 1: you the kind of a little space to then orient
Speaker 1: towards what's actually present in front of you, what is
Speaker 1: actually of importance now, and focus on that, not to
Speaker 1: get away from these emotions, but simply to put the
Speaker 1: minute of trajectory that empowers you to be here now.
Speaker 1: It's what you're gonna deal with. I'm working right now
Speaker 1: as I sit here, on not touching my face so much.
Speaker 1: It turns out I actually did some research on this
Speaker 1: forty years ago, and I have a little device here
Speaker 1: to record how many times that touched my face, and
Speaker 1: that actually has a big impact I showed in research
Speaker 1: four years ago. So I'm learning from my own ancient
Speaker 1: research done for other reasons, how to bring something into
Speaker 1: this present moment that's useful to me, may be helpful
Speaker 1: to my family. And you know, then as that happens,
Speaker 1: the important kind of step of what is there to
Speaker 1: be done? You know, it isn't just about you and
Speaker 1: about your feelings and your fears. Again, not as a
Speaker 1: way to get rid of or away from the situation
Speaker 1: they're in, but to channel some of that energy appropriately
Speaker 1: other friends and family to call up or their connections
Speaker 1: to be made A little Facebook talks to to have.
Speaker 1: Are there things to be written or things to be
Speaker 1: dealt with? Your home is Are your kids getting enough
Speaker 1: of your attention? Are they if they're home from school,
Speaker 1: are you working with them to do things they're helpful
Speaker 1: to in terms of their education and all of the
Speaker 1: things that you can do when you're in a crisis
Speaker 1: situation that could be pro social and helpful to others.
Speaker 1: If you do those things, what the research shows you
Speaker 1: come out on the other side of crises like this
Speaker 1: with some post traumatic growth. You find things that you
Speaker 1: haven't thought about for a long time, and it's kind
Speaker 1: of a gut check, and it may be that things
Speaker 1: that are of important, things that you really know would
Speaker 1: be healthy for you to do, whether it's spiritual practices
Speaker 1: or we can ling old friendships, or learning not to
Speaker 1: swept small stuff, or getting things going the interests that
Speaker 1: you've let fall to one side because you've been so
Speaker 1: busy dealing with the day to day work that you
Speaker 1: do whatever. If you're like me, you're sequested in place
Speaker 1: and thinking about, Okay, what is of importance to me,
Speaker 1: and take a time to sort of do a check in,
Speaker 1: and you may find that this crisis actually lifts through
Speaker 1: up and moves you forward in ways you didn't expect.
Speaker 1: It's a great perspective, and you touched on a lot
Speaker 1: of things there. I mean, I think the first being
Speaker 1: we can come through these things by growing and becoming stronger.
Speaker 1: So what appears to initially be very difficult and hard,
Speaker 1: although it has its difficult and hard elements, if faced
Speaker 1: and dealt with, we can actually grow and strengthen. And
Speaker 1: so I think that's the, you know, the first really
Speaker 1: important point. And then I think secondly you're saying, allow
Speaker 1: the emotions to be there, allow yourself to feel what
Speaker 1: you're feeling, and you know, don't don't try and make
Speaker 1: all that go ay, face it and be with it.
Speaker 1: And then finally, this is a really good opportunity to
Speaker 1: really think again about values, what matters to me, what's
Speaker 1: important to me right now, particularly is our routines are
Speaker 1: all shaken up. I'm finding it a really good time
Speaker 1: to stop and go, Okay, well, what matters, what's important?
Speaker 1: And how should my time and actions reflect that? Exactly right?
Speaker 1: And if you do, think you'll find on the outside
Speaker 1: of this that you actually have gains. It isn't just
Speaker 1: coping or dealing or getting through it's it's it's a
Speaker 1: matter of growing. And you know, you use that kind
Speaker 1: of talk of strength. You know, we know something about
Speaker 1: what or mental toughness comes from, and it's the same
Speaker 1: thing that physical toughness comes from, its strength and flexibility.
Speaker 1: You want to practice both those things, and so this
Speaker 1: is a good time to do it, and to bring
Speaker 1: your whole self into this crisis situation. Your mind's going
Speaker 1: to give you a lot of scary thoughts and judgments,
Speaker 1: but back up a little bit and watch that too,
Speaker 1: and take what's useful and lead the rest. And that's
Speaker 1: a good habit to build for any situation, and crises
Speaker 1: are also opportunities. A question I've gotten several times from
Speaker 1: people that I'd pose to you, you know, because I
Speaker 1: think it's it's a little bit around psychological flexibility. Is
Speaker 1: people feeling really frustrated when they see certain people in
Speaker 1: the world not responding to this in the way they
Speaker 1: think is correct. People who may not be distancing, people
Speaker 1: who may not be quarantining, people who may not be
Speaker 1: taking this seriously, and and people are finding themselves getting
Speaker 1: really angry about that. How would you how would you
Speaker 1: encourage those people to work with that skillfully. Well, it
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, this is what
Speaker 1: you're upset about, is the lack of pro sociality and
Speaker 1: cooperation because of course those folks out of the beach
Speaker 1: and Florida or whatever, the things that you're seeing, you know,
Speaker 1: may indeed be part of a process of spreading the
Speaker 1: virus and threatening us and our family and loved ones.
Speaker 1: I think what the research shows on that is that
Speaker 1: if you have graded opportunities to to sort of correct
Speaker 1: in which group membership is still important, but those are
Speaker 1: redirect I can give you an example. My fourteen year
Speaker 1: old said to me yesterday that, you know, if I
Speaker 1: get sick, he's talking about himself. I have almost zero
Speaker 1: chance of having any serious health benefits. So why shouldn't
Speaker 1: I have a sleepover. Well, it's you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: come back card at him, but I kind of walked through. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true, But we need to think of the whole family,
Speaker 1: the whole group, and that includes his seventy one year
Speaker 1: old dat who you know, wouldn't respond quite as well
Speaker 1: if he's out there doing sleepovers with his friends and
Speaker 1: they've been doing gosh knows what. Unfortunately, the other parents
Speaker 1: weighed in with this very same message, and we reined
Speaker 1: in this little, natural, understandable bit of selfishness that was
Speaker 1: right there in my youngster. So I think graded sanctions
Speaker 1: that are maintained the participation of people in the group. Now,
Speaker 1: when you're looking at something like the TV screen and
Speaker 1: you don't have an opportunity to talk to those people
Speaker 1: out of the beach, that's a little different. That's self
Speaker 1: righteousness because that anger that you're feeling and that's wrong
Speaker 1: and etcetera. If you really climb into that actually disconnects
Speaker 1: you from people. So, yeah, if you have an opportunity
Speaker 1: with those around you, we're group membership is really important.
Speaker 1: Pro sociality comes from that uh you know, shared bond.
Speaker 1: So you don't want to climb into your anger and
Speaker 1: push people away. You're in a drama and make minor
Speaker 1: corrections about various things happen to do with things maybe
Speaker 1: happen in your household, about how to uh you know,
Speaker 1: maintain sheltering in place or do things that are responsible,
Speaker 1: uh you know, whether it's wearing a mask or uh
Speaker 1: you know, disinfecting or washing your hands and all those
Speaker 1: kinds of things. The stuff that we're doing with regard
Speaker 1: to what we see on the toews and screen. Well,
Speaker 1: that's an indulgence. I don't think it's a bad thing
Speaker 1: to be upset about it, but it is a bad
Speaker 1: thing to call inside that upset and get self righteous
Speaker 1: about it. Got it? And what about you know? The
Speaker 1: other thing? I think the other emotion a lot of
Speaker 1: people are feeling is a great deal of fear. You know,
Speaker 1: there's fear about what's going to happen where this is
Speaker 1: all going to lead, Fear about the economy, fear about
Speaker 1: food shortage is you know a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of fear. And so how how do you encourage people
Speaker 1: to sort of allow that fear, like not to not
Speaker 1: to repress the emotion, to sort of allow it to
Speaker 1: be there, but also not get carried away or ruled
Speaker 1: by it. What are some ideas for working with this
Speaker 1: sort of fear of uncertainty which is just all pervasive
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, Well, two things. One is be careful
Speaker 1: of the judgments and understanding fear of the future that's
Speaker 1: inside a cognitive network of what's going to happen and
Speaker 1: what if this and what if that? But that's not
Speaker 1: really fear of the future of the future is not
Speaker 1: here yet. What it really is is kind of this
Speaker 1: verbal judgmental process driving you into a fear of someome stance.
Speaker 1: It is, if it is a scary situation, fear is
Speaker 1: totally appropriate. But if you look at what people are
Speaker 1: doing when they mismanage the future inside all this judgmental chat,
Speaker 1: or if you're not able to back up a little bit,
Speaker 1: you can be driven to doing really unselfish things. I mean,
Speaker 1: you go out and panic by let's say, well, fine
Speaker 1: for you if it's still on the shelves, but how
Speaker 1: about the next person who really needs that toilet paper
Speaker 1: or whatever. I mean, do you really need thirty rolls
Speaker 1: of toilet paper? I mean you could wash yourself with
Speaker 1: a bucket. I mean, what are you doing? And it
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense? But it might create harm for others,
Speaker 1: so they're The second thing is catch that judgment. Notice
Speaker 1: what's going back up a little bit. Let the mind
Speaker 1: chat or take what's useful, leave the rest to use
Speaker 1: your diffusion mindfulness and kind of distancing skills from your
Speaker 1: own chatter and scary thoughts. That's a good practice anyway.
Speaker 1: And then that other pieces values, What could you do
Speaker 1: that would be driven by your best self. And what
Speaker 1: I suggest to think of somebody who you think would
Speaker 1: be kind of a guide, a hero, a person if
Speaker 1: you could think of anybody in your whole life would
Speaker 1: be handling this situation pretty darn well. Imagine that person
Speaker 1: and imagine they get it chance to follow you around
Speaker 1: and give you a little bit of guidance. How I
Speaker 1: bet you what you're gonna find is you pick somebody
Speaker 1: who they show values and how they deal with situations.
Speaker 1: Put those values in your heart, be your best self,
Speaker 1: and it's probably not the person who runs out and
Speaker 1: panicked by his toilet paper. That's that's awesome. That's a
Speaker 1: great place for us to wrap up. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: Stephen for taking the time to come on and share
Speaker 1: a little wisdom with us. Thanks for the opportunity here, Okay.
Speaker 1: Next up is inspirational author and speaker Scott Stabile. We
Speaker 1: had interviewed Scott years ago about his book Big Love,
Speaker 1: The Power of Living with a Wide Open Heart. Hi, Scott,
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to have you back on. I'm always
Speaker 1: I'm always happy when we get a chance to talk,
Speaker 1: So thank you for taking a couple of minutes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to spend some time with you, Eric, Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So what I'm doing in this episode is I've shared
Speaker 1: with you, is I'm just looking for some people who
Speaker 1: I admire to share some some wisdom on how to
Speaker 1: deal with our mental and emotional health during this period.
Speaker 1: You know, what are some things that we can do
Speaker 1: so that we can get through all this with some
Speaker 1: degree of sanity and grace. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to share with you some of the things I'm doing,
Speaker 1: you know, and if that resonates with people listening, by
Speaker 1: all means integrated, you know. Um, I'm finding meditation to
Speaker 1: be of critical importance for me right now, and my
Speaker 1: practice has been for the past few months. Actually, morning
Speaker 1: meditation the first thing I do when I wake up.
Speaker 1: I use the app Insight Timer. I like, you know,
Speaker 1: that's an app. I like. Their loads of teachers on
Speaker 1: there and many meditation sations, And even before I got
Speaker 1: out of bed, I mean, unless I really have to
Speaker 1: p that, I'll go to the bathroom first, But other
Speaker 1: than that, I just lie in bed and I pick
Speaker 1: a meditation, usually between twenty to twenty five minutes, and
Speaker 1: start my day in that space. And for me, that
Speaker 1: sets a tone that I want to set set for myself.
Speaker 1: What I'm noticing in my experience now, and I suspect
Speaker 1: a lot of people can relate to it, is that
Speaker 1: even upon waking up the past few days, the moment
Speaker 1: I wake up, there's a anxiety. It's like waking up
Speaker 1: back into this totally unpredictable, unexpected, surreal experience, and my
Speaker 1: mind wants to immediately go into a state of fear
Speaker 1: on some levels. So I don't believe there are rules
Speaker 1: for any of us about how we need to process this.
Speaker 1: There's no guide book for dealing with a global pandemic.
Speaker 1: And whatever you're feeling is okay, And I'm allowing for
Speaker 1: whatever I'm feeling, and at the same time, I'm looking
Speaker 1: at ways that I can mitigate the fear, and meditation
Speaker 1: has been great. Another thing that I've been doing is
Speaker 1: really considering that which I have control over and that
Speaker 1: which I don't, because I feel like a lot of
Speaker 1: what takes us into a place of panic is feeling
Speaker 1: really out of control, and this situation right now is
Speaker 1: wholly out of our control, and if anything, the gift
Speaker 1: in that is really being shown in an exaggerated way,
Speaker 1: just how uncertain life is It's like life is always uncertain.
Speaker 1: We know this, and now we're really being shown to
Speaker 1: stop and pay attention because we have no control over
Speaker 1: most anything. So I find the things that my mind
Speaker 1: wants to get fearful about or panic about. It will
Speaker 1: be things like, how are other people showing up? What
Speaker 1: choices are they making? Are following the protocols that I
Speaker 1: believe we all need to be following to keep our
Speaker 1: fellow humans being safe, especially the elderly, especially those who
Speaker 1: are you know, compromised. And when I'm reading reports of
Speaker 1: people who aren't or seeing out there people who aren't
Speaker 1: through my window, it's frustrating and it can be enraging,
Speaker 1: and at this at the same time, I have no
Speaker 1: control over that, right, That's just one thing I have
Speaker 1: no control over. So when I'm when I'm caught in
Speaker 1: those moments of reflecting on how those things are making
Speaker 1: me feel, I go back to what can I control
Speaker 1: in this moment? You know, what can I be controlling
Speaker 1: in my day? So I can be controlling how I'm
Speaker 1: showing up in the face of this pandemic, the choices
Speaker 1: that I'm making for my well being. How am I
Speaker 1: supporting my immune system? Now right, the choices I can
Speaker 1: be making for other people's well being by socially distancing.
Speaker 1: If I take a walk every day, but if I
Speaker 1: see someone on the sidewalk, I get into the street.
Speaker 1: You know, I create space between us. I'm not taking
Speaker 1: risks around transmission. I've heard from several people have reached
Speaker 1: out to me about dealing with that anger they're feeling
Speaker 1: over people who are not following what we think is
Speaker 1: the right protocol to keep people safe. Um, and you
Speaker 1: touched on that day, Tell me a little bit more
Speaker 1: about how you deal with that that anger. You know.
Speaker 1: Part of how I deal with it is I look
Speaker 1: for myself in everybody, and I see everybody in myself.
Speaker 1: So when I'm feeling angry about choices that people are making,
Speaker 1: I do my best to bring compassion to the story,
Speaker 1: to bring empathy to the story, you know, to understand
Speaker 1: that we can't possibly know everything that's going on in
Speaker 1: the mind or in the experience of another human being.
Speaker 1: And I'm okay with getting angry. You know, it's okay.
Speaker 1: It's an okay response, especially during a time right now
Speaker 1: where there's so much unpredictability and uncertainty. They're so so
Speaker 1: many unknowns around what we're experiencing. So when I feel angry, okay,
Speaker 1: that's okay. I see people doing things that I think
Speaker 1: are stupid, and I get angry, that's okay. And at
Speaker 1: the same time, I try not to keep myself in
Speaker 1: that place of judgment and condemnation because one it doesn't
Speaker 1: serve me in any way that's helpful. Like what I'm
Speaker 1: choosing to do through my social media feeds is to
Speaker 1: create content that offers calmness, that offers information around social distancing.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm choosing not to condemn, but but also
Speaker 1: to speak to the things I believe we should be doing,
Speaker 1: which is to listen to the experts, to listen to
Speaker 1: the scientists, to really consider our fellow human beings, to
Speaker 1: really I posted something recently, there's no such thing as
Speaker 1: other people's grandparents, And for me, that's just a way
Speaker 1: of reminding people that our actions are impacting everyone right now.
Speaker 1: So the anger for me, I feel my emotions and
Speaker 1: I allow it to be present, but I try not
Speaker 1: to stay in that place in terms of how I'm
Speaker 1: viewing everyone, because I also understand everyone's freaking out in
Speaker 1: their own ways, and information has been coming through in
Speaker 1: a way that hasn't always been clear at all, and
Speaker 1: some people are making choices based on information that they
Speaker 1: don't feel is clear. And what I've noticed is the
Speaker 1: clear the information has been, the less I've been noticing
Speaker 1: people break the protocols that we're all being told to make,
Speaker 1: you know. Um. But other than that, I don't know
Speaker 1: what there is to do with with our anger except
Speaker 1: allow ourselves to feel it and take control of what
Speaker 1: we're able to take control of in terms of the
Speaker 1: choices we're making. And if there are people in our
Speaker 1: direct lives, people were in contact with, we're talking to
Speaker 1: on the phone, who are expressing to us that they're
Speaker 1: not making smart choices right now, to not stay silent,
Speaker 1: you know, to really speak up and say, hey, this
Speaker 1: is what we need to be doing right now, and
Speaker 1: I hope you'll reconsider what you're doing and consider the
Speaker 1: health and well being of everybody. Makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: And I think it is, you know, yeah, allow ourselves
Speaker 1: to be angry and then but not get lost in
Speaker 1: And I think that's the trick right now. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people are feeling is okay, I'm feeling
Speaker 1: these things, and I know it's good to feel my emotions,
Speaker 1: and yet in some cases, boy, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: just drowning in them. Yes, absolutely, I think that that
Speaker 1: we're all experiencing that to some degree. And so for me,
Speaker 1: one of the mantra's I've been living with these past
Speaker 1: days is to go within, because Eric, I'll tell you,
Speaker 1: every time I am in my heart, I'm in love.
Speaker 1: So when I'm in the space of my heart, in
Speaker 1: the energy of my heart, the communication is always the same.
Speaker 1: In that communication is just love, just love, just love.
Speaker 1: In that space, there's no fear right in that space,
Speaker 1: there is no anger. And that's why I'm retreating to
Speaker 1: my heart over and over, and I'm also going into
Speaker 1: my soul. And for me, the difference between the heart
Speaker 1: center and the soul center. My heart is just commanding
Speaker 1: me to love, to be in the presence of love
Speaker 1: because I know when I'm in that energy, I'm connecting
Speaker 1: to that vibration and that energy within all of us,
Speaker 1: and I know that it strengthens me. And the soul
Speaker 1: center for me, is a place of just deep peace
Speaker 1: and stillness. When I connect to my soul, I feel
Speaker 1: connected to divine consciousness, to the understanding that all is okay.
Speaker 1: And so when I'm in my fear, I'm in my head.
Speaker 1: And when I'm in you know, my anger, I'm in
Speaker 1: my head. When I'm in my frustration, I'm in my head.
Speaker 1: And yes, it's okay and totally okay for us all
Speaker 1: to be feeling whatever we're feeling. But when I need
Speaker 1: a break and when I want to be reconnected to
Speaker 1: what I know to be true and what I want
Speaker 1: to be reconnected to that place of peace within with
Speaker 1: everything that is going on, I go to my soul
Speaker 1: when I want to be reconnected to the high vibration
Speaker 1: of love over my heart. And so for some of
Speaker 1: you listening, you may be wondering, well, how, how, how
Speaker 1: how do we get there? For me, it's understanding that
Speaker 1: that space is alive within all of us all the time.
Speaker 1: So we are embodied with an ocean of love. We
Speaker 1: are embodied with an ocean of peace within us. If
Speaker 1: you're not finding that, I encourage you to seek it,
Speaker 1: pray to it, to write letters to it, to invite
Speaker 1: it to be more present in your life right now
Speaker 1: and in my experience, the more energy I give to
Speaker 1: finding the love and the peace that lives within me
Speaker 1: the more it presents itself to me. So I brought
Speaker 1: up meditation is the very first thing, and that's one
Speaker 1: of the ways that I find is a direct channel
Speaker 1: to get into my heart or to get into my soul.
Speaker 1: You know, deep connection with others who are willing to
Speaker 1: go there with you, but seek it out. We are
Speaker 1: embodied with so much love, and we are embodied with
Speaker 1: so much knowing, so much wisdom that transcends is any
Speaker 1: of the fears of our mind, any of the panic
Speaker 1: of our mind. And when we're in that place, we
Speaker 1: are reconnected to what is most true within us, that
Speaker 1: we are divine beings of peace and love. And the
Speaker 1: more often I return to that place in my day,
Speaker 1: the more calm I feel. And I'm certain it's why
Speaker 1: I won't pretend that I'm calm all through the day.
Speaker 1: I'm dealing with my own fears and my own anxieties
Speaker 1: in the face of this, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: I'm also embodying a lot of peace and a lot
Speaker 1: of calm and a lot of trust. And that's not
Speaker 1: coming from my mind, right, It's coming from a deeper place,
Speaker 1: a deeper source of wisdom that I believe we all
Speaker 1: carry within us, and it's the same source wonderful that
Speaker 1: is a great place for us to wrap up in
Speaker 1: a really beautiful and powerful idea there, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: drop into these deeper levels, this vastness that is waiting
Speaker 1: for us um at at deeper levels underneath our thoughts.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful thought and idea. Thank you, Scott. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: you're so welcome. Eric. Thank you for doing what you're doing,
Speaker 1: the work you've been doing, and for doing this right now.
Speaker 1: My pleasure, and thank you so much for coming on alright. All.
Speaker 1: Our final guest is Sharon Salzburg, a world renowned Buddhist
Speaker 1: teacher and meditation retreat leader. Hi, Sharon, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking a few minutes to talk with us again. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for doing this. It's a pleasure to talk
Speaker 1: with you anytime. Um, what I'm doing with this little
Speaker 1: episode is I'm just asking people who I respect their
Speaker 1: thoughts on dealing with um thoughts and emotions, difficult thoughts
Speaker 1: and emotions during this period. So I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: could just share with listeners some ideas you have for
Speaker 1: you know, how to get through this time with a
Speaker 1: little bit of sanity and grace. Well, let's hope. So
Speaker 1: it's difficult, and I think that's maybe the first thing
Speaker 1: to acknowledge. It's like you have to give yourself a
Speaker 1: break and be very forgiving of the things you feel.
Speaker 1: Maybe you thought you worked at anxiety a long time ago,
Speaker 1: or you know, whatever it might be, but we feel
Speaker 1: what we feel. And the idea is really not it's
Speaker 1: not that helpful to blame yourself, but rather to see
Speaker 1: if there's a way of relating that could be less entangling,
Speaker 1: you know, and less overwhelming. And so I always tell
Speaker 1: myself remember to breathe, just take a breath, which helps
Speaker 1: me return to the moment because I found also a
Speaker 1: lot of like anxiety, for example, will be the cascade
Speaker 1: of thoughts of future projection. Now this is going to happen,
Speaker 1: and that's gonna happen, and that's going to happen. And
Speaker 1: then just coming back, just like take a breath, just
Speaker 1: come back. It's actually a tremendous relief. And also things
Speaker 1: like walking, walking, meditation, even if you're walking back and
Speaker 1: forth in an apartment, it's like moving the energy through
Speaker 1: your body and and helping to get more grounded. And
Speaker 1: of course I believe very strongly in the force of
Speaker 1: loving kindness, and so whenever we add a sense of
Speaker 1: isol lation to something we're feeling, it's just going to
Speaker 1: exacerbate it. And so it's kind of bizarre, I know,
Speaker 1: in a time of social isolation where we need to
Speaker 1: actually have a powerful sense of connection. But I have
Speaker 1: found that you really can cultivate that kind of connection
Speaker 1: through something like loving kindness meditation, even though you may
Speaker 1: not even be seeing anybody else, right right, Yeah, those
Speaker 1: are all really good, good tips. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: taking those those deep breaths and just pausing is so helpful.
Speaker 1: I think another thing that I think is kind of
Speaker 1: crucialists to understand that you know, you don't have to
Speaker 1: do these things just once. I could. Earlier my practice,
Speaker 1: I used to kind of long for the moment, the
Speaker 1: great breakthrough experience, and after that it was all smooth sailing.
Speaker 1: And it kind of doesn't work that way. We're always
Speaker 1: kind of starting over and starting over, and you will
Speaker 1: get overwhelmed or you'll get lost, to get incredibly distracted,
Speaker 1: to get reactive, but you'll find I think if you
Speaker 1: really can step back and look that you're you're coming
Speaker 1: back to center sooner. And sooner. So again it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a call to please, don't blame yourself
Speaker 1: for whatever you're feeling, but let's find what's workable about
Speaker 1: the situation. Yeah, I'm finding in talking to you know
Speaker 1: a great number of people. Everybody is having some challenges
Speaker 1: right now. Even people that we might look at and go, oh,
Speaker 1: they've got it all figured out now, they're they're afraid
Speaker 1: to right now, They're distracted right now, They're struggling right now.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a really important reminder, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course we all are. Yeah, I think we all are,
Speaker 1: absolutely And um, you know, some people are in a
Speaker 1: position where they can actually be of help to somebody. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people tell me either grocer
Speaker 1: shopping or for elderly person or something like that. But
Speaker 1: not everyone is in a position to be able to
Speaker 1: actually do that. But still we can have that profound
Speaker 1: sense of connection. It will ease some of that kind
Speaker 1: of fear and sense of loneliness. What other ideas or
Speaker 1: thoughts do you have for people. It's such a bitter
Speaker 1: irony because it's a little bit like going on a
Speaker 1: retreat for people who can afford to stay home, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, which leaves out a lot of people whose
Speaker 1: reality is that they're still going out there to work
Speaker 1: because they have to, um, you know, and and so
Speaker 1: uh if you are staying home, then it does have
Speaker 1: that characteristic of of being on retreat, which people you know,
Speaker 1: used to pay for, because there's something about realizing, Okay,
Speaker 1: there are many distractions that are not available to me
Speaker 1: right now. Can I really utilize this time not just
Speaker 1: to survive it, but to actually deepen something within me?
Speaker 1: And I think that's actually possible. Well, of course for me,
Speaker 1: I come back to meditation practice because it's like it's available,
Speaker 1: it's personal. You know, need a group to do it,
Speaker 1: you don't need equipment to do it. It's really using
Speaker 1: the power over your own mind basically to create some space,
Speaker 1: you know, since you realize we might have options, like
Speaker 1: when we're completely consumed with worry or or something like that,
Speaker 1: or madly thinking about me in the future, you know,
Speaker 1: we don't see many options. It's like our world just
Speaker 1: shuts down. And the more we can change the way
Speaker 1: we pay attention, which is what meditation is, and get
Speaker 1: more present, more balanced, more open hearted, um, the more
Speaker 1: we will see options and action will follow from that. Well,
Speaker 1: I thought the way you and I might wrap up
Speaker 1: our time together would have you just lead us through,
Speaker 1: maybe like a three or four minute meditation loving kindness,
Speaker 1: or any type of meditation you'd like to guide us
Speaker 1: on for three or four minutes here to wrap up
Speaker 1: our time together. Sure, I'd be happy too. So you
Speaker 1: can't sit comfortably, I sue, none of you are driving,
Speaker 1: So eyes open or closed, however you feel most at ease,
Speaker 1: Loving kindness, meditation is very much a spirit of generosity
Speaker 1: of the heart. Its gift giving, it's offering. We offer
Speaker 1: the sense of blessing, of well wishing, and we begin
Speaker 1: with offering that to ourselves. The way we do it
Speaker 1: is we choose three or four phrases gently repeat them
Speaker 1: over and over again. Phrases like may I be safe,
Speaker 1: be happy, be healthy, live with these, live with these means,
Speaker 1: and the things of day to day life not be
Speaker 1: such a struggle. May I be safe, be happy, be healthy,
Speaker 1: live with these. Remember, the feeling tone is one of offering.
Speaker 1: It's gift giving. We're offering this to ourselves. And if
Speaker 1: you find your attention wandering, that's okay. See if you
Speaker 1: can gently let go and come back. I think of
Speaker 1: somebody that has helped you in the past or is
Speaker 1: helping you right now, or somebody who when you think
Speaker 1: of them you smile. They just kind of lift your spirits.
Speaker 1: Maybe you've never met them. Maybe it's a child, maybe
Speaker 1: it's an adult, it could be a pet. Even is
Speaker 1: there someone who when you think of them, you smile.
Speaker 1: So if there is, you can bring them here. You
Speaker 1: get an image of them, or say their name to yourself,
Speaker 1: get a feeling for their presence, and offer the phrases
Speaker 1: of living kindness to them. May be safe, be happy,
Speaker 1: be healthy, live with these, and then all beings everywhere,
Speaker 1: all people, all creatures, all those in existence, near and far,
Speaker 1: known and unknown by all beings. Be safe, be happy,
Speaker 1: be healthy, live with these. So thank you, Thank you, Sharon,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That's a wonderful way for us
Speaker 1: to wrap up talking with each other. Thank you. Pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you back on. Thank If what you just
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