Speaker 1: You're listening to Asia Centric from Blueberg Intelligence, the podcast
Speaker 1: that pulls back the curtain on global business so you
Speaker 1: can invest better across the Pacific Rim. I'm Tom Corbett
Speaker 1: on assignment in the US.
Speaker 2: And I'm John Lee. US LED sanctions on Chinese technology
Speaker 2: firms were designed to be a retaining wall, putting a
Speaker 2: barrier between China and the critical components needed to make
Speaker 2: the most advanced smartphones.
Speaker 1: However, Huawei drew a collective gasp when it revealed its
Speaker 1: latest smartphone, the May sixty Pro, is powered by a
Speaker 1: Chinese homegrown processor. It became proof that China had narrowed
Speaker 1: the gap with the West, giving tech tensions new urgency.
Speaker 2: A Western sanctions too little, too late? And how does
Speaker 2: this compare to Apple's latest iPhone.
Speaker 1: Here to discuss all things tech related is Dan Hutchison,
Speaker 1: vice chair of Tech Insights. He joins us from San Jose, California. Dan,
Speaker 1: great to have you.
Speaker 3: Thanks John Tom for having me here. I'm really excited
Speaker 3: to be here on this podcast.
Speaker 2: Dan, your company did a pair down of Huawei's new smartphone,
Speaker 2: the Mate sixty. What surprised you the most about these findings?
Speaker 3: Well, the thing that was the most surprising. We kind
Speaker 3: of expected that it was going to be a seven
Speaker 3: nanimeter chip, and what surprised us the most was just
Speaker 3: the level of Chinese technology that was in there. You know,
Speaker 3: the motive one that on the APU was all Chinese technology.
Speaker 2: Okay, Dan, can you put that into Layman's terms? What
Speaker 2: is a seven nanimeter chip? And why is it so important?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay. The funny thing about it is is that,
Speaker 3: you know, explaining what a nanometer is really crazy. It's
Speaker 3: it's like a thousand a Salven's the thickness of human hair.
Speaker 2: But the smaller the better, right, faller about it, right?
Speaker 3: And so so what it means is is that the
Speaker 3: smaller the better means you can pack more transistors into
Speaker 3: a piece of silicon, so you get more performance your
Speaker 3: you know, your computer can do more. And so it's
Speaker 3: a it's a basic metric of technology, and we go
Speaker 3: down in every two years you try to double the
Speaker 3: density of what's on the chip. And that's the old
Speaker 3: More's law.
Speaker 1: So, Dan, prior to the May sixty being unveiled, the
Speaker 1: overarching sentiment was that China was further behind on this
Speaker 1: technology than it really was. You've been watching the chip
Speaker 1: industry for decades, what surprised you the most when you
Speaker 1: learned about the chip in the May sixty.
Speaker 3: The most interesting thing about the chip in the May
Speaker 3: sixty was that well, one was that it was not
Speaker 3: a five animeter, which the chip and the prior generation
Speaker 3: phone had a TSMC five animetor part in it, so
Speaker 3: it was kind of backed up, and that it was
Speaker 3: a smick chip. The big surprise was that it was
Speaker 3: a non EU of EA chip because they don't have
Speaker 3: access to those tools. And yet it was a pretty
Speaker 3: clean looking set of dimensions, the layout of the chip itself,
Speaker 3: it all looked really clean and it looked as easily
Speaker 3: as good as what TSMC did when it did it's
Speaker 3: seven nanimeter non and U of E chip.
Speaker 1: And the West was not expecting that was.
Speaker 3: It now the West there's a certain arrogance, I think
Speaker 3: in the West in which we think we can throw
Speaker 3: these rolls out there and that the other side will
Speaker 3: it just won't make any progress. And in fact, with
Speaker 3: any technology, if you know it could be done and
Speaker 3: you're throw enough talent at it, you can make progress.
Speaker 2: And then how does the chip performance compared to say,
Speaker 2: other smartphones? Such as maybe like the latest Samsung or
Speaker 2: the latest sell me, well, it's.
Speaker 3: Not going to be as good as a phone that
Speaker 3: has a current generation three N animeter chip. Like what
Speaker 3: we just we're just tearing down the Apple iPhone fifteen
Speaker 3: and we saw a micron hit the record for d
Speaker 3: ram density, which was around a twelve nanimeter twelve thirteen
Speaker 3: animeter n.
Speaker 2: In terms of specs technology, How many years is the
Speaker 2: Huawei Mate sixty pro behind the latest iPhone?
Speaker 3: It's about four years. And if you look at the
Speaker 3: next generation that'll come out in a year or so.
Speaker 3: You know, if we look at the two animeter, they're
Speaker 3: probably about five years behind the very leading edge of
Speaker 3: what's you know, being developed today. But we also expect
Speaker 3: that they're developing their own five nanimeter a part which
Speaker 3: we expect we'll be here in about two more years.
Speaker 2: The chips at power Huawei's latest phone are made by
Speaker 2: SNICK or Shanghai Manufacturing International Corporation. Do you think that
Speaker 2: SNIK is actually making money producing these chips?
Speaker 3: Well, there's two sides of me on that, Okay, okay.
Speaker 3: One side says that there's no way you would do
Speaker 3: a phone and try to produce its scale unless you
Speaker 3: knew the chips were priced right. And there's no way
Speaker 3: if you had a fab of that capability that you
Speaker 3: try to do this unless you believe you could yield.
Speaker 3: My sense is looking at the SEMs and some of
Speaker 3: our people that told me looking at the SEMs, they're
Speaker 3: really good and clean, and I would expect their yields
Speaker 3: to be somewhere in the sixty percent range. They need
Speaker 3: to get to eighty percent to be world class. But
Speaker 3: it's really a question of how well their yield management
Speaker 3: is working, and to know that, we really have to
Speaker 3: have access to their pro yields and look at the
Speaker 3: wafers that sort of thing, which that's not going to
Speaker 3: happen anytime soon. So that's the one side of me
Speaker 3: that says, you know, they wouldn't do this unless they
Speaker 3: really knew they could make money at it. The other
Speaker 3: side of me says, well, they're communist country and they
Speaker 3: could do what they want to in market still matter.
Speaker 3: I remember a friend of mine who had been in
Speaker 3: a Russian fab told me in the eighty because he's
Speaker 3: in a country that they could go back and forth
Speaker 3: cel to the US, sell to Russia. At the time
Speaker 3: and he'd been in a Russian fab and he was
Speaker 3: watching an operator smoke cigarettes and flick the ashes that
Speaker 3: she was moving away first, and he says, aren't you
Speaker 3: worried about yield? And the fab manager looked at us
Speaker 3: as yield that's a capitalist concept, and a government like
Speaker 3: the size of China, which is the second largest economy
Speaker 3: in the world, can do what they want to and
Speaker 3: there's no way for anyone on the outside to really
Speaker 3: know what's happening there.
Speaker 2: When it comes to profitability, yep, and semiconductors has been
Speaker 2: chosen as a critical industry for China.
Speaker 3: So absolutely absolutely, and so you know, you have those
Speaker 3: two sides of it. And so the fact is is
Speaker 3: that the profitability question may not matter. I mean, either
Speaker 3: they are or they don't care. In that sense, it
Speaker 3: doesn't matter. And eventually, the other thing with semi auctors
Speaker 3: is the more you make, the better you get at
Speaker 3: the higher yields go. So even if they're not profitable now,
Speaker 3: they will be at some point as long as they
Speaker 3: have that government support.
Speaker 2: So basically, if you keep on throwing money at the
Speaker 2: problem will eventually sort itself out.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what does Huawei's progress tell you about the
Speaker 1: effectiveness of the sanctions and their prospects for success going forward.
Speaker 3: Well, I think unlike some people that say, oh, the
Speaker 3: sanctions aren't working, I looked at it and saw all
Speaker 3: the sanctions are doing what originally everybody thought they were
Speaker 3: supposed to do, which was not to put Huawei out
Speaker 3: of business, but to keep them a couple of generations behind,
Speaker 3: you know, keep them about for you know, two generations
Speaker 3: is four years.
Speaker 2: And then what can always do to narrow the gap
Speaker 2: going forward?
Speaker 3: Well, they don't have access to EUV tools, so you
Speaker 3: know extreme.
Speaker 2: Moment, the equipment made by ASML right been.
Speaker 3: Made by SML, and they don't have access to the
Speaker 3: emergent tools that they bought. Plus there's an older jenneration
Speaker 3: of emersion tool that's still available to them, and the
Speaker 3: immersion tool actually allows them to continue to move forward
Speaker 3: as long as they do multi patterning. And the problem
Speaker 3: with multi patterning is is that it does add inaccuracy
Speaker 3: in the overlay and in the actual dimensions of the
Speaker 3: ship itself. So the result of it will be that
Speaker 3: you get a lower yielding device, it doesn't perform as fast,
Speaker 3: and it consumes more power than what you would like
Speaker 3: it to than what you have with the EUV tool,
Speaker 3: but you can still pull it off.
Speaker 2: Then I also saw your report on the MAT sixty
Speaker 2: ten down and that your company also found some memory
Speaker 2: trips made by sk heinez inside these phones. They weren't
Speaker 2: supposed to be inside these phones, were they.
Speaker 3: No, they weren't. Let me correctly. Was not my report personally.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of really good people working at
Speaker 3: this and you know, and I've been kind of following
Speaker 3: what they've been writing about really closely and looking at
Speaker 3: their SEMs and the pictures they've been coming at. So
Speaker 3: I should kudos to them for what they did. The
Speaker 3: sk Heinex chips, the memories generations back, they weren't current notes,
Speaker 3: so it doesn't look like they actually acquired them directly
Speaker 3: from Heinex, and according to the sanctions, Heinex can't sell
Speaker 3: to Huawei. There's a myriad of ways that because of
Speaker 3: the commodities, those chips can work their way through the
Speaker 3: supply chain, and Huawei could have picked them up without
Speaker 3: them being directly coming, especially since there's a lot of
Speaker 3: memory right now. There's a huge clut of memory coming
Speaker 3: because the memory producers overproduced during the shortage. They kind
Speaker 3: of drank the kool aid about how great this shortage
Speaker 3: was and it was going to last.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Asia Centric from Bloomberg Intelligence. By the way,
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Speaker 1: from our listeners. Dan Hutchison. One of Apple's defining qualities
Speaker 1: has been its ability to innovate, to come up with
Speaker 1: a new idea and just dazzle the world and power
Speaker 1: its sales to new heights. Is there a perception do
Speaker 1: you think that Apple is starting to come up against
Speaker 1: a bit of a wall in its ability to generate
Speaker 1: that wow factor with new products? And if yes, how
Speaker 1: much are technological limitations at play here?
Speaker 3: Oh? Well, technological limitations are becoming far more at play
Speaker 3: the thing about Apple, And realize that this is probably
Speaker 3: more in my opinion, but you know, you can't discount
Speaker 3: the immense ability of stee jobs. And typically what I've
Speaker 3: seen in the companies I followed is a good strategy
Speaker 3: to last for about five ten years tops before it
Speaker 3: kind of taps out when it comes to the market.
Speaker 3: And Steve had this amazing ability to look at technology
Speaker 3: that was out there piece it together into something that
Speaker 3: was really amazing and fantastic. And I don't think Apple
Speaker 3: struggled to duplicate that. He just had an innate sense
Speaker 3: of what was really great. And those kind of people
Speaker 3: are really hard to find, you know historically, you know,
Speaker 3: when you look at companies that make themselves and Apple's
Speaker 3: struggling to reinvent itself, which the whole thing with the
Speaker 3: App Store and the Apple TV that's coming along, but
Speaker 3: it's also something that there's plenty of other competitors out
Speaker 3: there doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: Once Apple has changed the world, what can to do
Speaker 1: for an encore.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very difficult thing. And if we talk
Speaker 3: about this, how Apple led with the iPhone, with the
Speaker 3: Mac and everything, but it midst the cloud and it missed,
Speaker 3: you know, the impact of what the cloud was doing,
Speaker 3: in which we saw other companies like Google and Facebook
Speaker 3: and Amazon come along. So really, sometimes the innovation comes
Speaker 3: from other places, and that's really where we look forward to.
Speaker 3: And I think in the whole artificial intelligence arena, that's
Speaker 3: a whole spectacular area for massive innovation. It's also an
Speaker 3: area where China has a very strong leadership position.
Speaker 2: And talking about innovation, Apple just release its new iPhone
Speaker 2: fifteen and the buzz seems to be the adoption of
Speaker 2: a USB C port. Is this really the major breakthrough
Speaker 2: for this phone or is there more to it than that?
Speaker 3: No, I think that was that's like expected. Everybody has
Speaker 3: been telling them, you need to come up with their comments,
Speaker 3: so you know, but they wanted to sell more cards
Speaker 3: and make their devices more unique, and you know, that
Speaker 3: was always the downside of Steve Jobs, right, was is
Speaker 3: he wanted everything to be done his way and he
Speaker 3: wanted absolute control over it. And so I just don't
Speaker 3: see any value in fact. For me is a photographer.
Speaker 3: The more exciting part about the iPhone fifteen is the
Speaker 3: new cameras that come with it and the ability that
Speaker 3: they've done. And the Apples phones have really become driven
Speaker 3: by what their cameras could do, and I'm surprised that
Speaker 3: that didn't generate more excitement.
Speaker 1: What about the Age seventeen Chip Dan Hudgson, You've just
Speaker 1: mentioned that consumers seem to gravitate more toward the gadgets
Speaker 1: and the gizmos, the cameras. Is the A seventeen chip,
Speaker 1: Is there anything really game changing in there?
Speaker 3: Well, the big game changer for it's going to be
Speaker 3: that you'll get longer battery life and you will get
Speaker 3: more performance. But I also think it's probably somewhere near
Speaker 3: where the PC hit where we're beginning to see less
Speaker 3: and less performance. So in terms of you know, does
Speaker 3: your call go through all that the same when you
Speaker 3: really see the performance is things like in the artificial
Speaker 3: intelligence application to the image processing for the camera itself,
Speaker 3: and so you get much better stabilization, much lower light,
Speaker 3: much more realistic images, and things like that. The camera
Speaker 3: has become the big reason to upgrade.
Speaker 2: Then there's been some excitement that the new iPhone with
Speaker 2: the A seventeen chip could be a breakthrough for gaming.
Speaker 2: I know that you know some versions of Resident Evil
Speaker 2: have arrived on the iPhone. Do you think this is
Speaker 2: a major game changer?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, if you look at kids and everything,
Speaker 3: they're all using their phones and their iPads for gaming,
Speaker 3: and they're not using laptops or computers. And this is
Speaker 3: the big advantage of this chip. I come back, I
Speaker 3: mentioned the performance and you see it in the AI
Speaker 3: processing for images. You're also going to see it in
Speaker 3: the speed and reactiveness and gaming, which at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, in gaming, that's those slight incremental school
Speaker 3: games give you an advantage in where you're playing a
Speaker 3: driving game or you're on the battlefield.
Speaker 2: So what's next for the iPhone in terms of spekes,
Speaker 2: in terms of the next breakthrough technology?
Speaker 3: To be honest, I think we're going to see more
Speaker 3: of the same.
Speaker 2: The improvements in the camera, you know, and.
Speaker 3: It's improvements in the camera. You're going to get a
Speaker 3: faster chip that works better. The gaming will improve, and
Speaker 3: their whole goal is simply to give people enough incremental
Speaker 3: advantage to buy a new phone and to stay in
Speaker 3: their world garden, because that's becoming more and more. Where
Speaker 3: the money for Apple comes is the access to the
Speaker 3: TV and also just the fantastic usability of its products
Speaker 3: compared to other products that are out there in the world.
Speaker 1: They've had me for ten years in counting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they've had me since the first iPhone.
Speaker 1: Dan Hudgson, what do you think Steve Jobs would say
Speaker 1: if he could see the Apple of today, the iPhone
Speaker 1: of today, and and the ecosystem. Any thoughts on what
Speaker 1: he would think if he could see all that today.
Speaker 3: I think he'd probably asked the question of what have
Speaker 3: you guys been doing? How did you miss Ai? And
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, they need to come
Speaker 3: up with another product, And they're kind of bifurcated, you know,
Speaker 3: because they've got hardware products that they're known for and
Speaker 3: the usability of those hardware products are known for. But
Speaker 3: they haven't gone they haven't improved on those. The focus
Speaker 3: has all been on the app store and the applications,
Speaker 3: the TV trying to get into the movie business, the
Speaker 3: content business, compete with Netflix, those sorts of things that
Speaker 3: really just keep you looking at their screens.
Speaker 2: What about the virtual reality headsets? It made a lot
Speaker 2: of news last year. Do you think that could be
Speaker 2: a major driver for Apple going forward?
Speaker 3: I seriously doubt that the headset can be a major
Speaker 3: driver for anyone and been a real doubter on the headset.
Speaker 3: And here's my thinking about the headset. Well, one is
Speaker 3: you're not going to carry it with you. In fact,
Speaker 3: most people won't carry a laptop anymore. They'll just carry
Speaker 3: their phone and maybe an iPad. But now that the
Speaker 3: iPad has gotten as heavy as a laptop with a keyboard.
Speaker 3: You wind up choosing one or the other, right if
Speaker 3: you have to. But most of the time you just
Speaker 3: take your phone because it's such a universal device, right.
Speaker 3: And the other issue you have is the usability of
Speaker 3: those devices. The market is driven by the ability of
Speaker 3: people to either have screen time for it or to
Speaker 3: take it with them. The reason why the auto market
Speaker 3: is so huge and why it drove the last century
Speaker 3: it is because it has about a five percent utilization.
Speaker 3: You buy a car and you drive it to work,
Speaker 3: you park it all day, you drive it home, you
Speaker 3: park it all night. And so if everybody has to
Speaker 3: have one and they don't use it as much, that's there.
Speaker 3: Maybe that's the case with the headsets and with the
Speaker 3: virtual reality, but you know, you kind of have to
Speaker 3: come back to how do they get people to move
Speaker 3: towards that over just using their phone or something else
Speaker 3: for their reality.
Speaker 2: So, Dan, you mentioned that Apple appears to have missed
Speaker 2: the step in terms of cloud. They also seem to
Speaker 2: have missed AI revolution. Which companies are leading the innovation?
Speaker 3: Do you think, well, in terms of the cloud, I mean,
Speaker 3: clearly you've got Microsoft and Amazon leading the whole cloud
Speaker 3: space and when it comes to AI, how can you
Speaker 3: say the word AI and not mentioned in videos name
Speaker 3: yes and what they've been able to do. And then
Speaker 3: you've also got Intel and A and D trying to
Speaker 3: come back and dig their way out of the PC
Speaker 3: trough if they've been in with their AI chips, but
Speaker 3: they've got a long ways to go because while they
Speaker 3: were focusing on AI, Wang kind of snuck in and
Speaker 3: stole the party.
Speaker 2: And what about some of the Asian companies. Is TSMC
Speaker 2: still leading in terms of the logic chips and do
Speaker 2: you think you see this continue going forward?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? The thing when you get in the lead of
Speaker 3: the semiconductor industry, you have so many advantages because of
Speaker 3: the scale you have. That said, it's really up to
Speaker 3: the engineers to continue to make the innovations. And it's
Speaker 3: so easy to trip up and to fall behind. Intel
Speaker 3: did this in the nineteen eighties, TSMC did it in
Speaker 3: the late nineties two thousands, they started to slip behind,
Speaker 3: and really they had slipped systematically behind until twenty eight
Speaker 3: and animeter and that was when they started to catch
Speaker 3: back up again. So it's really a question of can
Speaker 3: they continue to innovate, and that may become a limit
Speaker 3: for them because the labor shortage of technical talent in
Speaker 3: Taiwan is becoming really short. Because they've grown so much,
Speaker 3: they've become so big, it's harder for them to hire and.
Speaker 2: I Samsung, like Tronics, dominates in memoratips, but they've also
Speaker 2: made a lot of investments into the logic space. Does
Speaker 2: Samsung all oppose any threat to TSMC?
Speaker 3: If we had the TSMC executives here talking honestly, they
Speaker 3: would probably tell you that their biggest worry is Samsung yep.
Speaker 3: And just because of the raw resources and their ability
Speaker 3: to throw money at it and their ability to use
Speaker 3: the scale from memory and then apply that to logic,
Speaker 3: and that's really the big issue for them. The hard
Speaker 3: part for Samsung is they're really good at making memory,
Speaker 3: and memory is a very different animal to logic in
Speaker 3: terms of what you're building and how you build it
Speaker 3: because memory is a pure commodity and logic is not
Speaker 3: a commodity. All of those designs go to a particular
Speaker 3: end system and they're totally dependent on where their customer,
Speaker 3: how what the volume they want to buy. And if
Speaker 3: they say, oh, we don't want those wafers and they're
Speaker 3: halfway into production. You're kind of host where in memory,
Speaker 3: whatever you make you can only sell. So it makes
Speaker 3: it a much more difficult market in terms of managing
Speaker 3: your fabs and managing the losses they trace around the fabs.
Speaker 3: And that's something that TSMC has been a real master of.
Speaker 3: And the old model for TSMC, why they were so
Speaker 3: successful was the intersections in type, you know, and y
Speaker 3: TSMC came out winning versus in memory. The intersections. Everybody
Speaker 3: stops at the stop light and waits. That's the way
Speaker 3: a memory fab works, and in a boundary fab it
Speaker 3: has to work like an intersection in type, where the
Speaker 3: only rule is you don't hit the fender of the
Speaker 3: car next to you.
Speaker 2: Organized chaos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Dan, you've been covering the chip industry since the
Speaker 1: late nineteen seventies nineteen seventy eight. I think what in
Speaker 1: those forty years of covering this industry surprises you the
Speaker 1: most about the way the industry has evolved, technology, the
Speaker 1: overarching economic and political implications. What stands out in your
Speaker 1: mind when you look back over your career and gaze
Speaker 1: over that landscape.
Speaker 3: Well, I would have to say more recently, Number one
Speaker 3: is that Washington finally figured out that chips were important
Speaker 3: and that all of those smart things.
Speaker 1: They were a little late to that game.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were a little late to that game. I mean,
Speaker 3: there was some real visionaries in Japan in the nineteen
Speaker 3: seventies that saw this late sixties early seventies that saw
Speaker 3: this and really pushed Japan. But then they had their
Speaker 3: own issues. And that kind of leads to the thing
Speaker 3: that I think it really surprised me the most is
Speaker 3: how difficult it is to lead this industry. And all
Speaker 3: of the leaders have succeeded by being global, by being
Speaker 3: at the best at what they do, and by selling
Speaker 3: to the best companies that are out there, and by
Speaker 3: buying from the best companies that can supply them. And
Speaker 3: Japan tried to create its own vertical supply chain, and
Speaker 3: that was really the seeds of its own destruction, because
Speaker 3: the weakness in those layers were the weakness of the
Speaker 3: whole chain. Well, if you look at the companies that
Speaker 3: wound up succeeding, like Tokyo Electron, Advantest JSR, they succeeded
Speaker 3: because they really went global and went after the companies.
Speaker 3: TSMC has succeeded because they built a global set of customers.
Speaker 3: And what we've seen is is that you know, just
Speaker 3: because you lead the market today doesn't mean you're going
Speaker 3: to lead the market in five or ten years. We've
Speaker 3: seen this complete churn of companies. When I got in
Speaker 3: the industry, Texas Instruments and Motorola were the two top
Speaker 3: companies in the world, and the Japanese were on the rise,
Speaker 3: and Intel was in the I don't think Intel was
Speaker 3: even in the top ten yet. So there's been this
Speaker 3: constant change, and the companies that win are the ones
Speaker 3: that go global and then run faster than everybody else.
Speaker 3: It's all about running faster.
Speaker 1: And this raises an interesting question about China in its
Speaker 1: quest to develop kind of its own home grown technology,
Speaker 1: infrastructure or ecosystem. Do you think it can succeed sustainably
Speaker 1: doing that or will it have to go global as well?
Speaker 3: Well? It doesn't matter what I think, but the history
Speaker 3: of it has been that you have to have a
Speaker 3: global source supply chain, you have to think global, and
Speaker 3: trying to do it vertically is a path to failure.
Speaker 3: So based upon that history, I think the odds for
Speaker 3: trying to have a complete vertical supply chain and then
Speaker 3: lock everything into China. Are really the seeds of it
Speaker 3: walking down the same path of Japan.
Speaker 2: Walk down that Apple and it supplies a moving more
Speaker 2: production away from China to India. Have you had a
Speaker 2: chance to look at an India made iPhone?
Speaker 3: I know we're working on that, but I don't think
Speaker 3: we've made that contrast yet. We're definitely interested in figuring
Speaker 3: out one out. And you know, of course we've read
Speaker 3: all the stories and India is a difficult challenge. That said,
Speaker 3: China was always a difficult challenge. The products that come
Speaker 3: from China in the before Apple got there were noted
Speaker 3: for very poor quality. So I think they can bring
Speaker 3: India back. India is definitely a very different challenge though,
Speaker 3: because you don't have the kind of governmental control over
Speaker 3: the society there, over the business, that sort of thing
Speaker 3: in India that you have in China. So India still
Speaker 3: has a long ways to go. And then some of
Speaker 3: the infrastructure issues like the ability of power, ability to
Speaker 3: get deliveries on time, those sorts of things are constantly
Speaker 3: a problem in India that you don't see in China.
Speaker 2: Dan, is there any questions that you'd like us to
Speaker 2: ask you.
Speaker 3: I think the one question that's kind of interesting here
Speaker 3: that the few people have asked me that you asked
Speaker 3: me of a question that missed and it sort of
Speaker 3: came to me, and that is is is this phone
Speaker 3: stabilizing or destabilizing to the geopolitics? And my sense is
Speaker 3: that now that China's making progress again, it actually sort
Speaker 3: of brings more stability to the battle between the US
Speaker 3: and China over it, and you know, they can see
Speaker 3: that they're making progress. I'm hoping that this actually helps
Speaker 3: to really get us more towards a peaceful solution to attentions.
Speaker 1: Our guesst has been Dan Hutchison, vice chair with Tech Insights.
Speaker 1: We've been talking China, Huawei, chips, tech and the future.
Speaker 1: It's been remarkable and insightful conversation and Dan, we look
Speaker 1: forward to hearing more from you.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me here. It was a
Speaker 3: real pleasure to be Tom and John, you know, the
Speaker 3: both of you and really just sort of sus these issues.
Speaker 1: The pleasure has been ours. I'm Tom Corbett on assignment
Speaker 1: in the US, and.
Speaker 2: I'm John Lee. This podcast has been edited by Clara
Speaker 2: Chen and you've been listening to the Asia Centric podcast