1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media book Club book Club, book Club book Club. 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Cool Zone Media book Club, 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: the only book club where you don't have to do 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: the reading because I do it for you. My name 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: is Margaret Kiljoy and I'm the host of the show, 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: which makes sense because I'm the one talking to you. 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: And okay, you might remember last week when I read 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: you a story, a nurse fairy tale, and I was like, 9 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, I know, I'm out on a limb here. 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: This feels a little trans to me. And I really 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: was out on a limb there, but I'm pretty comfortable 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: out on limbs. I clamber around a lot. But a 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: friend of mine sent me another fairy tale, this one 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: from Ireland, and I don't think I have to go 15 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: out on a limb here. When I say that this 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: story is a trans allegory, it might not even be 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: an allegory. It's just kind of a trans fairy tale 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: because this story is the story of the abbot of 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: Drummech who is changed into a woman. And this story 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: has been written down a lot in different medieval manuscripts 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: in Irish, and there's a couple other versions of it. 22 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: There's like a whole lot of different written down versions, 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: including some I believe in Scotland. But Ireland and Scotland 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: are the only places in the West where this particular 25 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: style of fairy tale seems to exist, and I think 26 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: that's cool. This particular version was translated by Barbara Hillers. 27 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: It's pretty short, so I'll probably end up talking about 28 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: it a bunch. It's called the story of the Abbot 29 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: of Drummeh who has changed into a woman. A certain 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: young man who held the abbyssy of Drumh endeavored to 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: make a great and fine banquet in observation of Easter. 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: After preparing the banquet, the young man goes out of 33 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: the house and sits on a big, pleasant hill that 34 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: was above the settlement. And it is thus the young 35 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: man was a very comely linen hood around his head, 36 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: and a tunic of royal silk closely fitted to his 37 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: white skin, and an excellent, very beautiful rope on top 38 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: of that, and a cloak of dark brown scarlet flowing 39 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: around him, and a gold hilted sword fit for assembly 40 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: in his hand. And when he had reached the top, 41 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: he put his elbow to the ground and slept. And 42 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 1: after he woke up from his sleep. When he wanted 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: to take his sword, he found only a woman's weapon 44 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: in its place, i e. A distaff. And this is 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: how he was. The skirt of a woman's tunic on 46 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: him down to the ground, and on his head there 47 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: was a woman's hairdo long, golden, very beautiful hair falling 48 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: in fine curls from the top of his head. And 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: when he passed his hand over his face, he did 50 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: not find any hair of a beard or mustache there. 51 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: And he put his hand between his thighs and he 52 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: found the sign of womanhood there. Nevertheless, the young man 53 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: did not believe those various signs, for he thought it 54 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: was shape shifting and magic which had been played on him. 55 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: Then a certain big woman comes past him, and she 56 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: was very ugly, brown and exceedingly hideous. I want to 57 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: point out here that I am under the impression of 58 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: brown is around, like coloration of hair and stuff like that, 59 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: although I certainly wouldn't put it past medieval Ireland to 60 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,839 Speaker 1: just be being blatantly racist here, but I believe it's 61 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: instead as this. It's so obviously like he's so beautiful, 62 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: he's so white, and he has blonde hair and then 63 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: you know it's comparing to this other thing. It's still 64 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: not like good. But I am under the impression that 65 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: is what that particular part means. A certain big woman 66 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: comes past him, and she was very ugly, brown and 67 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: exceedingly hideous, an aperation with gray bristles and deep set eyes. 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: And this is what she said, Why are you here, smooth, 69 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: young blonde girl, alone on this hillock at the end 70 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: of the day and the very beginning of night. And 71 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: he was gloomy and tearful and sad at this news. 72 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: And he said after that, I do not know where 73 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,679 Speaker 1: I will go or what I will do. Hence, because 74 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: if I go to my house, my people would not 75 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: recognize me, and if I should leave, I'm in danger 76 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: as a single woman going about on her own. Therefore, 77 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: then this is best for me to go through the 78 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: world until God may pass judge on me, for it 79 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,239 Speaker 1: is he who has distorted my shape in my form 80 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: and put me in disfigurement and repulsiveness. But still, although 81 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 1: God has given me this change of appearance, I swear 82 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: in the presence of the Creator that I have not 83 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: hung a person or wronged anyone, that I have not 84 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: committed an outrage against bell or relic or staff, nor 85 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: persecuted a church, nor spoken evil against anyone, Nor has 86 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: a guest ever gone dissatisfied from my dwelling and my house. 87 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: He descended then from the gnoll and from the pleasant, 88 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: beautifully sloping hill, and he raised a sore lament and 89 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: a heavy sorrowful cry. And this is what he said 90 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: going down the hill. 91 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: Pity. 92 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: He said that the ground of the hill does not 93 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: swallow me up at this very moment, because I do 94 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: not know whither I will go or what I will do. 95 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: She went off after that down across the slope of 96 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: the hill until she reached the Green of Crome Glen, 97 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: a church that was to the west of Drumaic. After that, 98 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: she meets a certain tall soldierly young man on the 99 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: village green, and the young man felt eager excessive love 100 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: for her and began to entreat her, and did not 101 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: leave off until he had union and intercourse with her. 102 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: And after they had slept together, the young man asked 103 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: the girl from the place she came and who she was, 104 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: and the girl told him why I'm here selling goods 105 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: and services. That's not what she said, but that's what 106 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, because here's a bunch of ads, let's 107 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: you have cooler zone media, which case you can skip 108 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: these ads. Well, actually you can skip them anyway, but 109 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: they're automatically skipped for you. You have cooler zone media. Anyway, 110 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: here they are, and we're back. And after they had 111 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: slept together, the young man asked the girl from what 112 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: place she came and who she was. The girl told 113 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: him that he would not get that knowledge from her, 114 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: whether they would be together for long or short. I, however, 115 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: he said, will tell you my name for I'm Ernech 116 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: of this church. And then Erneck is. I had to 117 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: look this up so I couldn't find a lot of 118 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: the pronunciations for a lot of the Irish. And I'm 119 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: very sorry, but medieval Irish is hard for me to 120 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: find pronunciations of. And Erneck is the person who kind 121 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: of like handles a lot of the day to day 122 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: stuff at a medieval Irish monastery. It's a role that 123 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: went away I think in like the fifteen hundreds or something. 124 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: Because this story is old as shit, which is cool 125 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: as hell. Anyway, I will tell you my name for 126 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: I Aernach of this church which is called Cromglen, and 127 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: my wife died two years ago, and you will be 128 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: my harmonious and well matched wife. And they went together 129 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: then to the Aernach's house, and the people of the 130 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: house bade her a friendly and courteous welcome. And she 131 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: was with him for seven years as his wife, and 132 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: his spouse and seven children she bore him during that time. 133 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: After that, a messenger comes to the Airnech from the congregation, 134 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: an assembly of Drummech, to invite him for Easter. And 135 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: she goes together with the Aernak to the hill on 136 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: which her shape was first transformed, and she falls immediately 137 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: asleep on the hill, and the Airnch goes with his 138 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: people to the church. And after the girl woke up 139 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: from her sleep, it was thus she was a man 140 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: with the same appearance she had in the first place. 141 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: And she found her gold hilted ornamented sword on her knee. 142 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: And this is that's what she said, Oh powerful God, 143 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: the lamenting in which I am is great. And after 144 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: a great lamentation, he went to his original home and 145 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: his wife says to him, then it's long that you 146 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: are absent from home. Then the drinking hall had been arranged, 147 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: and that strange story was told to the people of 148 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: the house. However, that story was not believed by them, 149 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: for his wife said that he had not been absent 150 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: for more than an hour of that day. Finally, after 151 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: giving them many various proofs, his case is presented and 152 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: a judgment made between him and the Airneck of Crome Glen. 153 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: And this is the judgment that was made between them 154 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: to divide the children in half, giving the extra son 155 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: to the Airneck for fosterage. And this is how they 156 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: parted from each other. Etc. You know, a story is 157 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: good when it ends with etc. Okay. I always say 158 00:09:58,280 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: I like that story so much. 159 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: That story so much, And one of the reasons is 160 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: that it doesn't sound like a fairy tale. Like there's 161 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: some stuff right, There's like, oh, I'm on a hillock 162 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: and you know this thing happened and time passed differently. 163 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: Right. There is this whole thing, you know with Faery, 164 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: where if you go to Faery, time passes very differently 165 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: and you'll spend years there and when you leave it's 166 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: only been a day, or vice versa. You spend a 167 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: day there and you come out it's been years. And 168 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: I've always liked that because I think time dilation is 169 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: a really interesting part of life, and it's especially a 170 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: part of drug use, but it's also a part of 171 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: just like general living in very different ways. Like when 172 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: I traveled full time, you know, only a summer had 173 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: passed the first summer I was traveling, only a summer 174 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: had passed, and it felt like an entire lifetime. I 175 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: felt like half of my life had been led before that, 176 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: and the other half had been lived during those like 177 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: three or four months. And so I was like that 178 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 1: thing about fairy But overall, this isn't a very fairy 179 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: tale feeling story. It doesn't have a lot of the 180 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: sort of repetition and kind of a lot of the 181 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: things you expect out of certain types of oral tradition. 182 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: But this story is absolutely part of the oral tradition 183 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: as well. There's actually a lot of like This particular 184 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: translation was written as part of an academic piece by 185 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: Barbara Hillers called The Abbot of Dromaic Gender Bending and 186 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: the Gaelic Tradition, and it's specifically around whether or not 187 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: medieval Irish literature is rooted in the oral tradition or not. 188 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: Because people were like, nah, there's no way that all 189 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: of the stuff in the medieval manuscripts is actually what 190 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: people were saying around that time. But there actually seems 191 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: to be a lot of evidence that this particular story 192 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: does come close to what people were saying around the time, 193 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: and that fascinating. But you know what I find even 194 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:07,239 Speaker 1: more fascinating the fact that goods and services are available 195 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: for purchase by you through our advertisers. I find that 196 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: endlessly fascinating. You can tell by the tone of my 197 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: voice how enthused I am about all of this. And 198 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: we're back, Okay, more things that are interesting about this. 199 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: When I did episodes about medieval Ireland on my podcast, 200 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, and if you're listening 201 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:42,719 Speaker 1: to this on it could happen here, why aren't you 202 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: also listening to cool People who did cool stuff? Where 203 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: I talk about history. When I did episodes around medieval 204 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: Irish history, especially around Grace O'Malley, the Pirate Queen of Ireland, 205 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: one of the things that came up is that we 206 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: have these assumptions about medieval Ireland that it was this 207 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: very Catholic place right after the Irish Revolution of nineteen 208 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: twenty one. Unfortunately, despite that being a pretty cool and 209 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: lefty revolution. The Catholic Church kind of stepped in in 210 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: a sort of theocratic mode and pushed Ireland towards a 211 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: certain cultural conservatism. But that's not actually Ireland's heritage even 212 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: as a Catholic country. For example, in medieval Ireland, women 213 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: were getting divorced and like initiating divorce and that's not 214 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: supposed to be the case if you're like super Catholic, 215 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: but it was just normal. And it's worth pointing out 216 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: here that the abbot here is fucking married. Like in 217 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: this case, that bitch gets married twice. She's married as 218 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: a man and then she's married as a woman, you know, 219 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: and it's like kind of chill. They just gotta split 220 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: the kids in the end. And okay, but another thing, 221 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: isn't that weird that you know, it doesn't work out 222 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: for it doesn't work out like time wise, right, like oh, 223 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: you were only gone an hour, but like the airneck 224 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: is like, what are you talking about? I was married 225 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: as lady. Here are my seven children with her? You know. 226 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: But also like no one's like mad. He's not like 227 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: what you were a man all along. He's just kind 228 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: of like sad. He doesn't get to be married to 229 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: her anymore. And so gender bending in this context is 230 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: presented as a curse at first, right, and it uses 231 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: he pronouns for the protagonist until she starts accepting what's happened, 232 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, he wakes up and curses God, and then 233 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: and it uses the trope of like an ugly woman 234 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: as like a sign that magic has happened, which I'm 235 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: totally down with. I know, there's a lot of shit 236 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: that's like rooted and misogyny that sometimes I'm like, whatever, 237 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: we can own that shit, Like, you know, we can 238 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: be like spooky signs of magic. That's fine. But you know, 239 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: as soon as she is used to the idea of 240 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: being a woman, suddenly she's she in the story and 241 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: she's used to it, and then she feels just as 242 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: much cursed when she is transformed back into a man. 243 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: And I mean, I think what happened. I'm willing to 244 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: bet what happened is this story is about like an abbot. 245 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: Like the real thing that happened. I bet an abbot 246 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: like was like, oh, I'm wearing my prettiest clothes. I'm 247 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: gonna go take a nap in the sun. And then 248 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: like had like a day dream or a normal nap 249 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: dream where she woke up a woman and was like, 250 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: this fucking rules, I'm gonna go around to sleep with 251 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: people as a girl. I'm gonna have babies and shit. 252 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: And then like woke up and was like it was 253 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: all a dream and was kind of bummed, and then 254 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: told everyone the story, and then it slowly became that's 255 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: that's what I bet happened, because trans women have been 256 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: part of society forever. But what's interesting is that so 257 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: much folklore across Western Europe, and I think actually extending 258 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: into Eastern Europe, but I'm not as certain about that. 259 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: There's just certain tropes that are repeated over and over 260 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: and over again. But there's only a couple stories, and 261 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: I believe they are only found, according at least to 262 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that I read, they're only found 263 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: in Ireland and Scotland about a man being turned into 264 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: a woman and the other place that you find this 265 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: apparently and I haven't read these stories yet, but I 266 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: want to go find them soon. The other place where 267 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: you find this style of folk tale is India. And okay, 268 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: this is now I'm back on a limb. I'm completely 269 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: on a limb here. I am probably wrong about this, 270 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: but one of the things that this reminds me of 271 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: is something that came up. I did episodes about hunger 272 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: strikes a long time ago, and how the tradition of 273 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: hunger strikes as a sort of legal idea, as a 274 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: way to get recourse from someone who is like a 275 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: rich person who owes you money, for example, is that 276 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 1: you go to their door and you starve yourself. And 277 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: this is found in two cultures. It is found in 278 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: Irish traditional law and it is found in parts of 279 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: northern India. And the argument that I ran across for 280 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: that is the same reason that you have some language 281 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,199 Speaker 1: similarity between Irish and I don't remember what language. I 282 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: don't have notes in front of me. I'm totally doing 283 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: this for a memory and some language in India is 284 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: that the culture that both of those come from the 285 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: language group of Indo European comes from this like proto 286 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: Indo European language and culture, which started in the kind 287 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: of middle of Asia, and then it made its way 288 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: west and east. And stuff often lasts the longest at 289 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: the fringes of culture, you know. So if you have 290 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: like a culture and empire and it extends out super wide. Well, 291 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: then the next thing that comes along is also going 292 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: to extend out and extend out or whatever. But the 293 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: very fringes sometimes hold on to the stuff from the 294 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: earlier culture. And so this is theoretically why there's hunger 295 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: strikes in both of those places. A sort of a 296 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: legal idea is that they come from this same source. 297 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: And it's cool because it means that these places that 298 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: are thousands and thousands of miles apart and are like 299 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: on different continents, are coming from the same place. And 300 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: as a side note about multiple continents, whenever people are 301 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: like I just don't understand the idea of social constructs. 302 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: How can gender be a social construct? They probably believe 303 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: that Europe and Asia are two different continents. And the 304 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: reason that Europe and Asia are two different continents is 305 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: the social construction they are, and they are different continents. 306 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: You know, geographically they are not separate continents, but culturally 307 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: they are. So I could not actually tell you I 308 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: am completely on a limb is a conjecture that I'm 309 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: probably wrong about that. The fact that you're going to 310 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: find this like folklore around men becoming women in Ireland 311 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: and India is from the same idea of it coming 312 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: from a proto culture. That's probably not the case, but 313 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: it's like neat to think about, and I like thinking 314 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: about neat stuff. And it's also a curse, right, This 315 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: is a very important part that this is like a curse. 316 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: Whereas you do find folklore and cultural stuff happening a 317 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: little bit more the other way around, where people are 318 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: talking about girls becoming boys in folklore, and that almost 319 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: always is actually very specifically as babies, and it's because like, oh, 320 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: we kind of like need a man, We need to 321 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: have a man show up, and so we're gonna, you know, 322 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: decide that this girl is going to have the social 323 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: roles of masculinity. Thousands of years and thousands of miles 324 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: of culture is too large of a place to make 325 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: generalizations about the mutability of gender. But gender has been 326 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: mutable in different ways, in different directions, across the world, 327 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: in different ways, and I don't know, so hopefully I'll 328 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: slowly learn more about gender bending in history and specifically folklore, 329 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: but for now, this is what I've got. If you 330 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: knew how to pronounce those words properly, I am sorry, 331 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: but I could not find pronunciations online because they are 332 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: medio Irish And I'll talk to you next week when 333 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: I'll have more stories, because that's what this is, a 334 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: storytelling podcast. It's cool Zone Media book Club. Talk to 335 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: you soon. It could happen here as a production of 336 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. 337 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 338 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: Coolzonemedia dot com. 339 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 340 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. 341 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 2: You can find sources where it could happen here, updated 342 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 2: monthly at coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. 343 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.