1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Hello, this is Jesse and Holly with a quick note 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: before we start. 3 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 2: This is the first time that we've ever made media 4 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: that's published in the United States, and in light of that, 5 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: we have a couple of things to say. Number One, 6 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: we are not ever making any speculations on Bruce Bringsteen's 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 2: sexuality or gender. 8 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 3: Number Two, we wanted to give you a heads up 9 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 3: that in this episode we use historically derogatory language which 10 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: we have reclaimed as queer people. So this is every 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 3: Bruce zem I've ever made. 12 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 4: So I think. 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 3: It's yeah, it's from queers. 14 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: Near to town. It's just part you. 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 3: Nobody thinks about loneliness and small town fatigue like Bruce. 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: Nobody can write so succinctly about the dark, quiet emptiness 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 3: when you are lonely and out of place, and then 18 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 3: wrap it up in a three minute pop song like 19 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: Bruce can. Nobody can write about them danity of depression 20 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 3: and the infatuation of being in love like Bruce. I 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 3: was Bruce in born to run thunder Road, ready to 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 3: break out of my small town and never look back. 23 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 3: I was Bruce in dancing in the dark, staring in 24 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 3: a mirror, hitting my clothes, my hair and my face. 25 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 3: I was tired and bothered myself and dreaming of getting out. 26 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 3: And sure I had crushes of plenty, but more than anything, 27 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 3: I just wanted queer friends to make me feel normal, 28 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 3: and that just didn't exist in my small town. It's 29 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 3: all a bit emo and dramatic now considering I've lived 30 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: in a big city with queer friends and culture and 31 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: punk and art in my life, but things are a 32 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 3: bit emo and dramatic when you're a lonely teenage queer. 33 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: And Bruce understood my pain. I'm Holly. 34 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 3: You're hearing recordings of me in my natural habitat, sitting 35 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 3: on the floor in my bedroom, surrounded by my zeines. 36 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 3: I was just reading from one I made about Bruce 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: Brinkstein called Queer's on the Edge of Town. I started 38 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 3: makingnes in the nineties when I was living in a 39 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 3: small town in West Yorkshire, and it was my entry 40 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: to the world of DIY queer punk. It's not very 41 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: common for queer DIY punks to be into Bruce Springsteen. 42 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 3: When my friends found out about how much I loved Bruce, 43 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: they'd often just take the pace, not understanding why I 44 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: spent so much time listening to this pretty mainstream rock musician. 45 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 3: So one night in twenty ten, I decided to make 46 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 3: a zine that would explain why I'm. 47 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: So obsessed with Bruce Springsteen. 48 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 3: This scene was made while listening to Nebraska, the Rising 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 3: and Live in New York. The introduction says, wait, you 50 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 3: like Bruce Springsteen, but Holly, I thought you were super 51 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 3: cool and punk rock and awesome Bruce Springsteen. 52 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: Really. 53 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 3: I made I think ten copies, gave them to my 54 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: friends and was like, this is how Bruce Springsteen makes 55 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 3: me feel. 56 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: Stop making fun of me. 57 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: About a year later, my friend convinced me to take 58 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: some copies to the Queer sine Fest in London, and 59 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 3: about halfway through the day it already sold out. It 60 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 3: was the first time I realized that there were other 61 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 3: queer Bruce Nerds out there, So I started making mousines. 62 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: Issue Too, a bit of a soppy one Is This 63 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: Issue Too, came out in twenty thirteen. 64 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: Me and Bruce and. 65 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 3: My dads Why a Northern Queer, working class feminist fam 66 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 3: Love of Druce Sprinsteen, which is literally just all about 67 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: my dad and class and being working class and working 68 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 3: factories and the similarities there's really famous Bruce Sprinsteen songs 69 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: like Born's Ron thunder Road, which are all about escape 70 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: and leaving somewhere and never coming back. But Bruce is 71 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: also really good at writing about what about the people 72 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: who don't leave? What about the people who can't leave 73 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: because they're stuck? And I feel like it was just 74 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: this big thing to listen to Bruce Springsteen. 75 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: And hear my family. My dad reflected in those. 76 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 4: Lyrics if she got lost in the move. 77 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: I moved house se many times in London. It's just 78 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: I lost the originals. 79 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: Leading to issue four, which you heard at the start 80 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 3: of the episode. I'm just going to read a segment 81 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 3: from an updated edition about the many queer butch camp 82 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 3: personalities I've projected onto different eras of Bruce Brinstein's fashion. Okay, 83 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 3: I want Bruce to be queer. I want Bruce to 84 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: be a hot butch girl. I'm thinking about Bruce in 85 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 3: the eighties now, with muscle teas and high waisted jeans, 86 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 3: plaid shirts tucked in, hair slipped back but curls, breaking free. 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: Bruce the mechanic as she slides out from underneath the car, 88 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 3: Gruce stains on her overalls I'm thinking of Tunnel of 89 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: Love era Bruce with baggy blouses and tailored suits as 90 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: Bruce abandoned the denim and plaid and embrace being forty 91 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 3: and handsome as fuck. Or Bruce as a silver Fox, 92 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 3: the hot older academic, smart jeans and a waistcoat and 93 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 3: shirt and slicked back hair. I want Bruce to be 94 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 3: the butch girl of my dreams. I want Bruce to 95 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 3: be a fag. I want him and his leather jacket 96 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 3: and his tight, scruffy jeans making out with all the boys, 97 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 3: messy hair, messy beard, white vests and tight black jeans. 98 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about seventies Bruce when he was at his 99 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 3: musk gruffy and his must cheeky Bruce dancing in the 100 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: dark with Clarence on stage, leaning back as Clarence pulls 101 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 3: him in for a kiss. Or eighties Bruce when his 102 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: muscles were completely out of control, his super match of 103 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: biceps bursting through his shirt, demanding to be set free 104 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 3: in tight white vests, Bruce grunting and leaning up against 105 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 3: Miami Steve on stage, playing guitar back to back and 106 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: singing about being blood brothers and singing of his one 107 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 3: true lost love. 108 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: I want Bruce to be the queer boy of my dreams. 109 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: Because this is because the bus belongs to us a 110 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: podcast where two queer friends who bonded over their love 111 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 2: of Bruce Bringsteen go on a mission to get the 112 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: bus recognized as the queer icon we know that he is. 113 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: Hey Jesse, Hey Holly. 114 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 2: I love all the imagined versions of Bruce and your Zcene. 115 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: I too want Bruce to be the twinkie vag of 116 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: my dreams. 117 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: And the fact that Bruce has had so many looks 118 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: over his career is part of what we're talking about today. 119 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 3: Yes, because last episode we made a big decision. 120 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, we decided to annoyt ourselves with queer icon scientific 121 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: research leaders. 122 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: To prove that Bruce Bringsteen is in fact a queer icon. 123 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: In order to do this, so the thing with Cam 124 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: is that you can never really completely pin it down. 125 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: We spoke to an expert on our first point of 126 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 3: queer icondom Camp. 127 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm an Ellena Medhurst and I'm a historian of lesbian fashion. 128 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: Her account Dressing Dykes has taught me so much about 129 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: queer fashion history, and she just published a. 130 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 5: Book Unsuitable, A History of lesbian fashion, which I'm really 131 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 5: excited about. 132 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: In order to find out if we can see Bruce 133 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: through a camp lens, we need a definition for camp. 134 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: I think that there's like different kinds of camp. 135 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 5: There's the more archetypical, gay, male centric camp, the one 136 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 5: that's more widely recognized feathers and glitter and Priscilla Queen 137 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 5: of the Desert. My uk R reference for camp is 138 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 5: like strictly come dancing is like so camp and if 139 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 5: you're American, that's dancing with the stars. 140 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: Camp is extravagant and knowing. 141 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 5: But I do think that that kind of camp as 142 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 5: well is quite difficult to actually achieve, like you have 143 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 5: to really know what you're doing. It's quite self referential. 144 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: I will say this kind of stereotypical camp aesthetic that 145 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 3: Eleanor's describing glitter, lights, sparkles, et cetera. 146 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: That's not really Bruce's vibe. But I love the phrase 147 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: extravagant and knowing. None of Bruce's like center like glitter, 148 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: but I definitely think that some of them are self 149 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: referential and over the top in his own way. 150 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 5: There's this complete are the side of camp that's very 151 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 5: down to earth, practical, like die Key camp. And I've 152 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 5: written before about like sensible footwear being lesbian camp and 153 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 5: how like a search for pump and a very sort 154 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 5: of again this self referential like knowing the stereotype and 155 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 5: embracing them anyway, it's kind of cam. 156 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 6: The thing that I'm getting for you is this like 157 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 6: that self referential and like awareness of what you're doing 158 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 6: is really important in camp. Yeah, and so that kind 159 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 6: of makes sense in terms of if you're like sensible 160 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 6: footwear for lesbians camp, because that's making an in joke 161 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 6: about what lesbians are like. 162 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that way it is. 163 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: Over the top, even if the product is like a 164 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: comfortable slipper. 165 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. 166 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 3: The problem is, though, you can't always be sure what 167 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 3: people are referencing when they're wearing certain clothes. I had 168 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: an experience where I was like out in a club 169 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 3: and I was like dancing with this person who is. 170 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: Wearing cordalry trousers and had a mullet, and then I 171 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: like try to get with her, and then she was like, 172 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: hife straight, Oh, obviously that's totally fine. But in the 173 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: moment my reply was like, but you can have a mullet, 174 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 2: and so is there so it's like kind of progression 175 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 2: of like marginalized communities do it first, and then it 176 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: slowly becomes absorbed, and then marginalized have. 177 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 6: To come up with news. 178 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like things. 179 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, and this is something that's been going on for 180 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 5: a while. There's a quote that I use quite a 181 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 5: lot in my lectures and stuff, which is from nineteen 182 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 5: ninety seven. 183 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: I think looking Good The Lesbian Gays and Fashion Imagery 184 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: by Raina Lewis. 185 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 5: Raina and Lewis said something like we used to just 186 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 5: know by looking at a pair of sensible shoes, but 187 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 5: then everyone started wearing Doctor Martin's and foot wears. Lesbian 188 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 5: coding was undermined. And that's for me, you know, twenty 189 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 5: six years ago. And like you said, like dongarees very 190 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 5: fashionable for any straight woman at the moment. But I 191 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 5: always say, like, people ask me this quite a lot, 192 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 5: and I say, I think that's a good thing for 193 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 5: like women, especially because great, you're wearing comfortable clothes. 194 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: Good for you. I'm so pleased, do you know. 195 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 3: I mean, I agree, I'm very happy for straight women 196 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: to be comfortable. But yeah, it does kind of change 197 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 3: queer people's ability to be self referential, as your clubbing 198 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 3: experience shows, we need to know how to spot each 199 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: other two. 200 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: I think this is also a good illustration of why 201 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: camp is so hard to pin down, because, like queer fashion, 202 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: camp is by definition contextual. Clothes themselves do not camp make, 203 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 2: but they can form part of a bigger camp picture, 204 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: depending on the circumstances. 205 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 3: Eleanor, shockingly is not really a Sprinstein fan, so she 206 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 3: didn't know about just how versatile Bruce was with his looks. 207 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: He like serves b looks like. It's not that he 208 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 2: consistently looked one way for his career. He looked so 209 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: many different ways, and a lot of them for us. 210 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: Feels super queer. 211 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 3: To get Eleanor up to speed, we sent her a 212 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: bunch of photos of Bruce Brinstein's different outfits, which we 213 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 3: very professionally labeled daiki Bruce looks and faggy Bruce looks. 214 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: That's after the break, Jesse Holly. 215 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: Because the bus belongs to us. 216 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 3: We asked Eleanor aka are queer fashion expert dressing Dykes 217 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 3: to put Bruce to the camp test by analyzing photos 218 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 3: of his different fashion eras hang. 219 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: On because I saved them on my phone we started 220 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: with the faggy Bruce Looks folder the Born in the 221 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 2: USA Hubbo. 222 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 3: Released in nineteen eighty four. It's a picture of his ass. Basically, 223 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 3: he's wearing a white T shirt, tight blue jeans, and 224 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 3: a black leather studdard belt with a red cap hanging 225 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 3: out of his right back pocket. This image is superimposed 226 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 3: over the red and white stripes of the American flag. 227 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: It's giving a hanky cut. 228 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:04,599 Speaker 5: There's a photo series by Hal Fisher called Gay Semiotics 229 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 5: from nineteen seventy seven that documented fashion and signals war 230 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 5: my gay men in San Francisco in the late seventies. 231 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 5: One of the pictures is of the Hanky code and 232 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 5: its two men wearing jeans. It's like the same amount 233 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 5: of their body is on show as in the Born 234 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 5: in the USA cover. They both have handkerchiefs in their pocket, 235 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 5: red handkerchief. It's in the same pocket as Bruce has 236 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 5: his red cap. 237 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. 238 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 5: I don't think it was intentional, but it's just such 239 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 5: a solid connection, Like I'm sure there were gay men 240 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 5: who saw that, pitch loads of gay men or queer 241 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 5: people of all kinds who saw that picture and went, 242 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:47,479 Speaker 5: oh my god. 243 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: Brice Let's sing, Yeah, yeah, exactly. 244 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 3: Look, we're not saying that Bruce wants a fist up 245 00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 3: his ass, but regardless, this image is so rooted in queericnography. 246 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 5: Having that reference to gay culture, to the hanky code, 247 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 5: with the red, white and blue, with the stripes, with 248 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 5: the born. 249 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: In the USA. 250 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 5: There's something about mixing the like American patriotic symbolism with 251 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 5: quer symbolism and going. 252 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: This is this is the thing that's happened. Now, what 253 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: are you going to do about it? 254 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: We can't ever know the intentions of Bruce and the photographer, 255 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: but could this count as a tick for Camp if 256 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: we take Eleanor's description of Camp as extravagant and knowing, 257 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: we can at least agree that this look checks the 258 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: extravagant bucks. 259 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 3: To continue the research, we switched over to the DIKI 260 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: Bruce Looks folder. We started with a foot that I 261 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 3: like to call Bruce's stone butch blues. He's older in it, 262 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 3: salt and pepper vibes. 263 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 5: In a sort of like western outfit, a denim jacket, 264 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 5: a shilling jacket on top, holding a cowboy hat. I 265 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 5: was looking at them with my wife and she went, oh, 266 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 5: that looks like Kadi Lang so much, and we were like, 267 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 5: these are all KD. 268 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: LG. 269 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes they are. They're the same. 270 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 5: And there's an early picture of Kadie Lang from Cadie Lang, 271 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 5: and there are clines a cover from an album from 272 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 5: nineteen eighty seven where she's wearing like the same outfit 273 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 5: and has a cowboy hat in her hands. 274 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: If dear listener, you would like to compare these licks 275 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: yourself image that Bruce Springsteen Western Stars Jacket and Kadie 276 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: Lang Absolute Torch and Twang nineteen eighty seven. 277 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: Can you see? Oh, I've put them next to each other. 278 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: It's like the same as Oh my god, that's made 279 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: by Deer. 280 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: I cannot stress enough how identical these licks scene, both 281 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 2: in double jackets, blue denim underneath with brown on top, 282 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: both on cowboy hats, oozing butch sexiness. 283 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: As recommended by our lawyer, we do have to say 284 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: that we are not accusing Bruce of stealing looks from KD. Lack, 285 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: but in terms of his camp credentials, this look is 286 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 3: hell a butch. 287 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: It's like you squint and everyone can be a butch. 288 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: I love this. 289 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 3: I will be squinting for the rest of my days. 290 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: It's actually a famous name in the queer Bruce fandom world. 291 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: I shared it all my books. 292 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: Springsing jag account is a screenshot of a tweet on 293 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: Dumbler asking can a sis guy be butch? 294 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: And someone I was commenting Bruce Springsteen. 295 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: Some of the images we said, eleanor are from his 296 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 3: eighties muscle era, so much plaid, lots of tight jeans. 297 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: Cut off shirts, bandannas around his head. 298 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, what would be your kind of like professional fashion analysis. 299 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: Of those bits of his fashion journey? 300 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 5: As you know, it's very gender, it's very like playing 301 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 5: with like hyper masculinity in a way that can almost 302 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 5: come back round. I think a lot of queer people 303 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 5: have also experimented with using materials like plans, like denim, 304 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 5: haptile like masculine, almost industrial again, like working class esthetics. 305 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: It's funny because we're looking at these outfits through the 306 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 3: lens of our own experience, so it's kind of impossible 307 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 3: for us to not see a sexy, butch muscle queen. 308 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: Are we projecting onto him? Do people choose to be 309 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: camp or is it chosen for them? 310 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 5: In my job as a lesbian fashion historian, I have 311 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 5: to look at the evidence. Often people who can't even 312 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 5: speak for themselves anymore. It's people who have often been 313 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 5: recognized as just being straight, and you have to go, well, no, 314 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 5: I don't think that's the case. And this is part 315 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 5: of this history that I'm writing now for us. Yeah, 316 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 5: if you can see Bruce Springsteen as a camp bike on, 317 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 5: then Bruce Springsteen is a camp hyicon. 318 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: We wouldn't all be. 319 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 5: Here talking about it if we didn't recognize. 320 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: It as camp. I'm so happy that Bruce will not 321 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: being cleaned in your book. 322 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 5: On lesbian Yeah, I'll have to like do a little 323 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 5: addition somewhere. 324 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: Okay, So a lesbian fashion historian has said we get 325 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: to decide if Bruce's camp. She agrees he has campusthetics 326 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: mission a gump list. 327 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 3: I know Eleanor said we can just cheese, but I 328 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: can't shake that it might just be us seeing the 329 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 3: stuff in him. We see plaid sleeveless shirts and tight 330 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: blue jeans as really butch, but another person could just 331 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 3: look at these photos and just think they're really madly. 332 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: I do think there's an extravagance to his performance of masculinity, though, 333 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: because there's Massilira Bruce, But there's also like studded leather jacket. 334 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Twin here at Bruce. 335 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: It feels like he's trying on different versions of masculinity 336 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: in quite. 337 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: A playful way. Yeah. 338 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 5: The leather look in particular, like that has a long 339 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 5: queer history. 340 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. 341 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 5: I think it's I think it's sort of powerful and 342 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 5: empowering to have someone wearing that. 343 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: This playfulness trying on different versions of masculinity feels close 344 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: to the idea of gender as a performance, which is very. 345 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: Rooted in queer culture. 346 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 3: And Bruce said in his autobiography, looking back on these photos, now, 347 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: I look simply gay. I'd probably fit right in down 348 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 3: on Christopher Street in any one of the leather bars. 349 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 3: So it seems like, at least in retrospect, he has 350 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: some awareness of the queerness of these looks. 351 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: The other huge thing about Bruce's esthetics are that he's 352 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 2: often choosing to reference a. 353 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: Particular working class culture. Yeah, totally. He makes loads of. 354 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: References about how he grew up working class in New Jersey. 355 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 3: There's that lyric where he says rich man in a 356 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 3: poor man's shirt, and he seems to think a lot 357 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 3: about his own class status and rolling class struggles. He 358 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: acknowledges this funny position he's in. His dad worked in 359 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 3: a factory, but he himself started playing music at sixteen, 360 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 3: and he now jokes that he's never worked a day 361 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 3: in his life, but his songs are about the lives 362 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 3: of working class people. His relationship to class is super interesting, 363 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 3: but I'm not sure if it's got anything to do 364 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: with queerness. 365 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: That's next a way back, because. 366 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 3: I feel unsure about Camp's relationship to class. We've just 367 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 3: spent a whole conversation looking at a bunch of amazing 368 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 3: Bruce outfits that actually a lot of people would just 369 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: see us working class clothing and kind of conflated them 370 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: with queer aesthetics. And Camp does that sit right with us? 371 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 3: Is Bruce doing like extravagant working class looks? And if so, 372 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 3: is that solidarity or taking the piss is saying certain 373 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 3: looks are Camp looking down or laughing at. 374 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: It does feel sometimes like we're treading a fine line 375 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 2: with appropriation. I guess I've always seen Camp as more 376 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: of a camaraderie, a recognition that we're all failing the 377 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: made up standards of what we're told we have to 378 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: be like to be a respectable human adult and then 379 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: finding excellence in how we fail. 380 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, being. 381 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 3: Like capitalist heteropatriarchy is fucking us all over, so we 382 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 3: might as well make our failures fabulous. 383 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 7: Camp is always about being in on its own, Joe Like, 384 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 7: you can laugh at others because you're doing it lovingly, 385 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 7: because you've spent your whole life laugh at yourself, and 386 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 7: you know that life is full of things that you 387 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 7: have to lear to keep from crying about. This is 388 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 7: brick Bropalmieri. I write a lot about history about queer culture. 389 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 7: All of LiLine like writing an art is sort of 390 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 7: around DIY, like small, homegrown, underground kind of like culture. 391 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: About five years ago, Brooke launched a learning platform combined 392 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: with the zine and print library and resource pulling together 393 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: references to queer and gender nonconforming histories, and. 394 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 7: I called it camp Books because for me, the idea 395 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 7: of camping it up is a really fun and accessible 396 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 7: and timeless way of participating in a counterculture in a 397 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 7: kind of esthetic or fashion of like working against the 398 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 7: norms of the world around you. 399 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: Brooke was the first ever queer Springsteen fan I met. 400 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 2: They said to me that Bruce has a soul of 401 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: a poet and the masses of a sailor, which I've 402 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 2: never forgotten. 403 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: Because Brooke literally runs a platform called camp Books. We 404 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: were kind of hoping that they would just tell us 405 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: if Bruce was camp or not, but they did, in 406 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: fact start the interview saying basically the same thing as Eleanor. 407 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 7: There's no one arbiter. It does have to kind of 408 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 7: be a group mentality, you know, And I just feel like, yeah, 409 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 7: that's why, like student Santag she was writing in her 410 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 7: through her art scene at the time, Christopher iowod writing 411 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 7: through his scene in Berlin at the time. You know, 412 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 7: all these people, they're kind of distilling a group consciousness. 413 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 7: So that's also like, I really appreciate that you're doing that. Now. 414 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: It's exactly what we're doing. Voices of a Generation. 415 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 3: We're just as important the season stag that's the tagline 416 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: for this entire podcast. 417 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 7: Totally. 418 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 2: We simply just keep adding important titles to ourselves. We're 419 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 2: qualified scientists finding quer kons and now with the Voices 420 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: of a Generation, defining camp for millennials everywhere. 421 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 3: Even though we are perfect, everyone keeps telling us that 422 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 3: we don't need anyone else's opinion to make this decision. 423 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 3: Brooke did eventually tell us their definition of camp. 424 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 7: Camp is a really joyful immersion in the best and 425 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 7: worst of humanity. It's all about channeling the extremes and 426 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 7: trying to make something fun and enjoyable out of sometimes 427 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 7: like a bad lot in life. 428 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: And that's why it's. 429 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 7: Particularly valuable to queer people, to poor people, to people 430 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 7: who are for whatever reason, on the outskirts and can't 431 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 7: participate in society because of the money that they have 432 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 7: or the power that they have. Camp is kind of 433 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 7: about like changing like where that power comes from. It's 434 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 7: sort of about changing the rules of power relations and 435 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,239 Speaker 7: being abject in a really fabulous. 436 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: Way, abjects in a really fabulous way. I love that. 437 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 3: One of the reasons we wanted to talk to Brooke 438 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 3: is that they've spent a lot of time thinking about 439 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: class and its relationship to the Camp of Bruce Springsteen. 440 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,719 Speaker 3: Brook is originally from Philadelphia and comes from a similar 441 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 3: class background to Bruce. 442 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 7: I was not socialized like to be masculine, but I 443 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,239 Speaker 7: grew up really admiring like the kind of culture and 444 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 7: camaraderie and love that like, for instance, like Grapa had 445 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 7: around his garage because he was a mechanic. My grandpa 446 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 7: would show his love for his neighbors by fixing their 447 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 7: cars for them, and that was his kind of expression 448 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 7: of masculinity. And I always just like grew up feeling 449 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 7: so in awe of those forms of connection. 450 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: I grew up working class, and it's validating to hear 451 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 3: someone describe the tenderness of working class culture when other 452 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 3: people might only see the rough and tough. But this 453 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 3: is also where I feel wary of like queer commentary 454 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 3: and class stuff, because I think there can be a 455 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: fine line between celebration, self referencing and fetishization of struggle, 456 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 3: and Bruce really tours this fine line. 457 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 7: I was really excited when you asked me to talk 458 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 7: about Bruce Springsteen because I do think there's so much 459 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 7: camp potential with him. I think camp kind of moves 460 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 7: me on threshold of just wearing a costume or taking 461 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 7: a pose. It's like putting on a costume, taking up 462 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 7: that posture in order to go beyond into a kind 463 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 7: of true embodiment. But I think the sort of secret 464 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 7: to his songs working and his songs having real staying 465 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 7: power and being the kind of songs that you want 466 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 7: to sing along to that create worlds you have an 467 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 7: affinity for, you want to participate in. Or he writes 468 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 7: so well because he doesn't have critical distance from the 469 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 7: subjects of his songs, and that like the characters that 470 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 7: he's building in his songs, because he allows himself too 471 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 7: much affection for them, and he allows himself to spend 472 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 7: too long imagining what it would be like in their shoes. 473 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 7: There's not a lot of critical distance in camp you 474 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 7: really like dive in and you spend a lot of 475 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 7: time in that world is really about like world building 476 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 7: and building the world you want to stay in. And 477 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 7: I think that like for better for worse, when he's 478 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 7: singing in the first person songs that he's singing for 479 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 7: like he wants to be there, even if he wants 480 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 7: to be the one denouncing how awful it is to 481 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 7: work in a factory or singing about how upsetting it 482 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 7: is to kind of live in an apocalyptic post industrial landscape, 483 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 7: He's still doing it from this place of love and affection. 484 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 7: And it's not just drag. It's like a kind of 485 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 7: willful embodiment. 486 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 4: Which is really helping me understand Camp. 487 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 3: I think the way you phrase like so well, because 488 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 3: there's a lyric in Springsten some where he says he's 489 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 3: a rich man at a poor man shirt, which could 490 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 3: be like such an offensive thing to say because there 491 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 3: is no there's no truth that whatsoever. 492 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 4: It's just a costume. It's just a bit. It doesn't 493 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 4: mean anything like what you're saying about the tenderness and 494 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 4: the truthfulness of that. You've got to have this combination 495 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 4: of I guess artifice for camp what like you've been saying. 496 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: But there's got to be an element of authenticity with 497 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 4: that as well. It can't just be pure artific for 498 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 4: if it's sick, It's got to be authenticity mixed with arurface. 499 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 8: Is that right? 500 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 7: Yeah? I think you started exactly, And I think the 501 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 7: authenticity comes from, like, well, how do you spend your time? 502 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 7: Where are you? The difference between someone swooping in and 503 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 7: assuming a kind of outfit in a world that they've 504 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 7: never even tried to spend time in is really different 505 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 7: from someone being embedded in a context and making art 506 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 7: that reflects their genuine affection for that context. It's like 507 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 7: you are sincerely committed to the bit. The look, the persona, 508 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 7: the performance. Whatever it is you're trying to invoke is 509 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 7: like you are sincere to the point of devotional and loving. 510 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: And this commitment is so so clear in Bruce Springsteen, you. 511 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 7: Know that documentary, the promise about the making of Darkness 512 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 7: on the Edge of Town. He does not leave a 513 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 7: single aspect or detail of that of his recording process 514 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 7: to chance. It's all like meticulously And so I just 515 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 7: had this imergine. I just imergine him kind of being 516 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 7: like a like a like an unholy nightmare in a 517 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 7: way that like the problem is you have to love 518 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 7: them for it, because they're right. He is a person 519 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 7: of grand vision executed through like control over minute details. 520 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: You know. 521 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 3: Well that's camp in itself, right, that that vision that 522 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 3: control that artifice, but from a place of authenticity. 523 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, something that Bruce is really famous for his 524 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 2: life shows. It's just randomly picking out songs from signs 525 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: in the crowd. People write requests for the most niche 526 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 2: b side tracks and Bruce will pick them out and 527 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: be like, okay, band, let's see if you can remember 528 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: this one from twenty years ago. And then they were always, 529 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: without fail deliver a perfect performance of that song. 530 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: It is magic. 531 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I am so sorry to ruin the magic for you, 532 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 3: But I think a lot of this is probably fake. 533 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: I don't know for sure, and there is a lot 534 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: of fan speculation about this, but my impression of Bruce 535 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 3: is that he's way too in control of his image 536 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: to do this kind of thing on the fly, and 537 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 3: a lot of this is probably pre planned based on 538 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: songs that the East Street Band have rehearsed, because honestly, 539 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 3: how else does he randomly pick the one song that 540 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: guitarist Steven Sant plays mandolin on and then Steve just 541 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 3: happens to have a mandolin in his hand before Bruce 542 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 3: even picks that song. But I actually think maybe this 543 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 3: is more magic. And that's kind of what Brooke said too. 544 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 3: Bruce's undine commitment to the bit is camp. 545 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 7: The reason for it being an act is so it 546 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 7: will be better because because we deserve nice things, and 547 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 7: like working class people deserve nice things, we deserve to 548 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 7: see a good show of highly talented musicians, and in 549 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,479 Speaker 7: order for that to happen, they need to practice. So 550 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 7: I also like that there's an act of generosity there, 551 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 7: like you deserve a high experience, a highly you know, 552 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 7: a wonderful, overwhelming artistic aesthetic experience. Whatever you deserve to 553 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 7: see good art. So in order to give that to you, 554 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 7: the show I'm putting on is is just like high. 555 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 7: I've been so leticulous and considering every aspect of it 556 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 7: and how it will affect you as an audience. And 557 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 7: that feels the like generosity is also very camp to me. 558 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 7: I don't think of camp as stingy. I think of 559 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 7: it like as people giving We're all yeah, I think 560 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 7: I think the generosity is there and the performance of 561 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 7: like endurance. 562 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 2: Bruce is famous for doing shows that often last over 563 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 2: four hours. Even more recently, in his twenty eighteen stage 564 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: show Springsteen on Broadway, he performed so many times in 565 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: one year there were long stretches where he was performing 566 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: it eight times a week. 567 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 7: Like you just don't have to You could just Len 568 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 7: do that. You know, he's Bruce racing. He can give 569 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 7: himself a gentle schedule, is bu Springsteen. 570 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: I love this addition of generosity to our definition of camp. 571 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: Bruce gives us the gift of extravagant generosity. 572 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 7: Can tell he has been a therapy so he has 573 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 7: like a kind of he and maybe that's what makes 574 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 7: him amenable to queer culture is like he he clearly 575 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 7: has this lag work of self reflection and self evaluation 576 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 7: that comes from being someone for whatever reason, has had 577 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 7: to question every single thing about themselves. 578 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 3: As Bruce has gotten older, there seems to be more 579 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: and more reflection on his identity in his work. This 580 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 3: comes up a lot in his autobiography and Springsteen on Broadway. 581 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 7: It's been through like same and what it means to 582 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 7: try to be honorable and accountable to roots that he 583 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 7: has in a time and in a place in an 584 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 7: economy that are so different from the kind of upward 585 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 7: mobility that he's achieved as an orgist. And then this 586 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 7: existential question of if he performs something long enough, like 587 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 7: when do you stop switching modes from being one person 588 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 7: to a performer to just always being that thing that 589 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 7: you're performing. 590 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 2: Something that Tom said last episode when we were discussing 591 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 2: Camp is that camp is also ultimately about telling the truth. 592 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: And I think there's something so beautiful in what we 593 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: discussed with Brooke, which is that this commitment, this generosity, 594 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: this world building is a kind of balance between artifice 595 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: and getting into the truth of the situation. 596 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 3: I think I'm coming round to Bruce's camp credentials. We 597 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 3: did ask Brooke ultimately what their feelings were about this 598 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 3: checklist point. 599 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 8: I understand that we've just spent a lot of time 600 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 8: speaking with Nuance and Light and Shade, but we are 601 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 8: in fact on a mission, and the mission is to 602 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 8: see whether Bruce can be recognized as a queer icon. 603 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 7: Yeah. 604 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 8: In order to fulfill that mission, we need to tick 605 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 8: a check on our checklist, which is Bruce Camp. 606 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: Yes, and you are the arbor two of that for us. 607 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 7: Yes, he is. Yeah, he is absolutely camp. He is 608 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 7: so committed to his performance that I thinking in the latest, 609 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 7: like the deep hours of the night, questions whether he's 610 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 7: ever left the performance he's created, you know what I mean. So, Yeah, 611 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 7: and that that is a camp existential crisis to have, stunning. 612 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 2: You heard it here first, Bruce Springsteen is Camp. That's 613 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: item want on our checklist. Bird filled, one down, three 614 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: to go. 615 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 3: Can Queer's route for Bruce Sprinksteen as an underdog? That's 616 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 3: next episode because because the Boss belongs to us. As 617 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 3: a production of Malten Heart and Heart Podcasts. 618 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: We're hosted by Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio. 619 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 3: The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and 620 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 3: created by Jesse Lawson. 621 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 2: This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson, 622 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 2: with production assistants by Tess Hazel. 623 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: Michelle Maclam is our mixed engineer. 624 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,919 Speaker 3: Our original music and theme is by Talk Bizarre at 625 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 3: Talk D A Z A R Underscore, and our. 626 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: Show art was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at 627 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: Holly c Asio. 628 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 3: Fact checking by Selina Serlin. Legal services provided by A 629 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 3: Rowan Morn and File. Our executive producer from Modern Heart 630 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 3: is Jasmine J. T. 631 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: Green. 632 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 2: Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindsay hoffin Bye 633 00:35:39,360 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: Goodbye Cool