1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 2: I never thought I would tell this story. For years, 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: I deflected and demurred when people asked me questions about 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: where I grew up and what my parents did. Guarding 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: secrets was so ingrained in me that I could not 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 2: imagine a world where I actually discussed them, let alone 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 2: put them down on paper. But as my comics have 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: become more personal, there has been a small and persistent 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 2: voice growing within me that has insisted, this is my life, 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: my story to tell. But these stories and secrets also 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: belong to all the other people who share my history, 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: some of whom have devoted their lives to protecting such secrets. 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 2: At the early stages of this project, I would tie 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 2: myself up in knots over what to say and how 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 2: to say it. Would my parents approve what I embarrass 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: my family? Would I hurt someone's feelings? But sometimes the 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: trick to writing is giving up the pretense of pleasing 18 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: anyone at all. 19 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 3: So I began to right. 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: That's Sophia Glock, a cartoonist who lives in Austin, Texas, 21 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: and author of the recent graphic memoir Passport. Sophia's is 22 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: a story of a childhood spent moving around a lot 23 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: to some exotic, dangerous places. And the reason for all 24 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: those moves, well, that, of course is the family secret. 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: The landscape in my childhood was pretty evert changing, but 29 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: the majority of it was tropical to subtropical. 30 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 3: I lived in very kind of. 31 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: Verdant, overgrown type of places. 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 3: There were a lot of flowers. 33 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: The landscape in my childhood were the kind of places 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: where fruit was falling off the trees almost year round. 35 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: And there were any number of these different tropical and 36 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: subtropical places in your childhood. 37 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: Yes, the majority of the places I lived in would 38 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: have a rainy season and a less rainy season, not 39 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: all of them. 40 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: But the countries I lived. 41 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: In as a child were warm, and I craved like winter. 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: I wanted four seasons. You know, A lot of the 43 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 2: literature I read as a kid was based more sort 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: of like northern climates, so I definitely thought I was 45 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: missing out on snowy adventures. But of course now I 46 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: realized that I was living in like really gorgeous weather 47 00:02:59,240 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: year round. 48 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 3: I should not have been sad about it. I was 49 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 3: actually born in the States. 50 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: I am the only one of my siblings who was 51 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: born stateside, but. 52 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 3: I have no memory of it, and my very early 53 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 3: years were spent in Europe. 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: Actually, if you, as a child, if somebody had said 55 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: to you, where do you consider home is, what would 56 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: you have said? 57 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 3: I would have said the USA. 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: I might have, you know, claimed the city of my birth, 59 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: which is New York City, But I, as I like 60 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: to say, born, not raised. It wasn't until I got 61 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: older that I comprehended the United States in all of 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: its sort of regional glory. It was just the States, 63 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: good roads, great malls, and possibly snow. In early childhood, 64 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: I was very deeply in love with my mom, and 65 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: I think that we all were, including my dad. My 66 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: father was more of a sort of like intimidating, frustrating 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: presence in my life. I think that I tim I 68 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: was a very sort of headstrong kid, and I resented 69 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: him being in charge, if. 70 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: That makes sense. 71 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: But sort of the central fact my parents, like the 72 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: first and foremost thing about my parents in our lives 73 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 2: was that they were in love with each other and 74 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 2: that nothing was better than the experience. 75 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 3: They were having been married. 76 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 2: They were very much not just genuinely attached to each other, 77 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 2: they were also invested in their own love story. And 78 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: that's kind of how I always imagine them as a 79 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: unified sort of pair. 80 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: What did you know about their love story? 81 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 3: Very little, because they've met at work, and they didn't 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: talk to us about work. That was very grapotent. 83 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: They were very sensitive to the fact that, like, you know, 84 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 2: I guess they didn't want us to eavor to say 85 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 2: anything even in confidence, that we might then repeat to 86 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 2: the wrong person or speak about casually in public. They 87 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: even to people. You know, we socialized with other Americans, 88 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: but not all Americans that we socialized with overseas were 89 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: doing what my parents were doing, So, you know, I 90 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: kind of just thought like any American overseas was kind 91 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: of doing the same sort of work, but I didn't 92 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: know what that work was. I remember asking my mom 93 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 2: once where she met my father, and she said in 94 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: a parking lot, And we were literally walking in a 95 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: parking lot when I'd asked her, and I think that's 96 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 2: why she said that. So I didn't have details about 97 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: their love story. Until much later in life, I was 98 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: less aware of my mother's work. They kind of hid 99 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 2: that from me, and I'm not even really sure why. 100 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that she made more sacrifices in 101 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: her career. My father's career sort of took the center stage, 102 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 2: and we were going around on his assignments, and she 103 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: had five children altogether, so there was a lot of 104 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 2: childcare to contend with. So it wasn't really until later 105 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: that I began to appreciate that she was working as well. 106 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 3: I think she also once told me. 107 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: That when I kind of like confronted her and asked 108 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: her why she hadn't let me know where she was 109 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 2: going for huge chunks of time, she said she didn't 110 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 2: want to hurt my feelings. And I don't know if 111 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: that's true or not, if she was just being like 112 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: very circumspect, or if she really thought that her child 113 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: would be like hurt if they realized that their mother 114 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: had a job. My parents also did a really good 115 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: job of selling us this lifestyle as totally normal, you know, 116 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: inasmuch as we were ever in danger or ever had 117 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: to be on the lookout for danger. When I was 118 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: a small child, I took it for granted that everybody 119 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 2: kind of like looks over their shoulder, So I never 120 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 2: felt scared. It was either my own disposition or they 121 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: did a really good job of sort of protecting me 122 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: from the idea that I should be scared. 123 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 3: It was more that we should always be aware. 124 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that when we're children, we just 125 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: assumed that whatever our lives are are just quote unquote normal, 126 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 1: or everybody's life is like that. 127 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 128 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: It wasn't until I was eight years old and I 129 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: asked my friend where she was born and she said here. 130 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: And I was like, no, what country were you born in? 131 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: And she said here in, not just this country, this town, 132 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: like around the corner, you know. And I was like, wait, 133 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: I thought everybody in the world was just born in 134 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: a different country. 135 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: And moved constantly. 136 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: And then that's when I fully appreciated that our lifestyle 137 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: was special. 138 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: Nine apartments, eight schools, seven uniforms, six countries, five quote 139 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: unquote best friends, and the list goes on. This is 140 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: the kind of motion and disruption that defines Sophia's childhood, 141 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: picking up, then settling down, then picking up again, going 142 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: to a new school, making new friends, then leaving them. 143 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: Soon thereafter. How's a child supposed to act during all 144 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: this change? What's she supposed to say? According to her parents, 145 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: not much. She's told not to volunteer too much information 146 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: about herself. At one point, her mom tells her to 147 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: stop broadcasting to strangers that they're American. 148 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: I was a friendly kid, and it wasn't in step 149 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 2: with my parents' objectives. 150 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: To be too obvious. 151 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: They modeled and often instructed me on how to draw 152 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: people out, and sometimes that was by like acting guylus 153 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 2: and you know, seemingly open. But we were Americans. There 154 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 2: was no hiding that we looked like Americans. We sounded 155 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: like Americans. When I was five year olds around that age, 156 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: I was approached constantly on the street by men who 157 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: wanted to talk to me about being an American. And 158 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: I don't know if those were casual people. I don't 159 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: know if those were people with bad motives. But I 160 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: tended to answer honestly, and I had to be instructed 161 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: out of that habit as a pretty small kid. 162 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a word that you were taught about that, 163 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: which is deflect. 164 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 3: Yes, you ask them questions, right, I. 165 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: Was about to say, it's an interesting social skill. To 166 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: learn as a kid. 167 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: My dad gave me this piece of advice and it 168 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: was very free. And you know, this came to me 169 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: in many ways. I watched my parents do it. I 170 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: was often instructed specifically to do it. My mother always 171 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 2: wanted to know what all my friends' fathers did, why 172 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: they were there, why was ex child's family And she 173 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: might be coming from a country in southeag Asia, what 174 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: was she doing in this particular country in Europe? You know, 175 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: and usuallybe I'm sure, I doubt I passed anything useful 176 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,079 Speaker 2: on to my mother, you know. Oh, he's an engineer, 177 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: you know, But that was her remo, that was the 178 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: machine that made her work. She was literally collecting information, 179 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: even if it felt, you know, haphazard, even if it 180 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: was about like her children's classmates, and both by like 181 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: sort of modeling it and often just instructing it. 182 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 4: You know. 183 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 2: Told me that if you're uncomfortable, if somebody's asking you 184 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: too many questions, you can always turn those questions. 185 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: Back around on them and begin the. 186 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: Process of redirecting it to them. Because one, people love 187 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: talking about themselves, and two they're not paying too much attention. 188 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 2: People probably aren't going to notice that you deflect. And 189 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: it was one of the most freeing. 190 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: Things that my father ever told me was that people aren't. 191 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: Usually paying too much attention, which is of course ironic 192 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 2: because they were paying attention to everything, but it is wonderful, 193 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: Like we're all pretty, you know, narcissistic and as a 194 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: teenager when you're kind of want to crawl out of 195 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 2: your own skin and you're for self conscious and you 196 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: feel like the ugliest, strangest, weirdest creature that has ever 197 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: dared to exist, to truly internalize the idea that people 198 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: aren't caring as much as you think was deeply freeing 199 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: and you know, opens you up to a world's possibility. 200 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine too, Because you were in a 201 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: situation where you had to make new friends over and 202 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: over again. That must have been a pretty useful tool 203 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: for you. 204 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: I had all sorts of useful tools. Ask people questions. 205 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: People love being asked questions. I know I do, so 206 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: this is a treat. These were tips my mom gave me. 207 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: You know what I mean, use people's names. People love 208 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: the sound of their own name. 209 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, things like that. 210 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, these are people's skills, right, And 211 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that I was actually even very good 212 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: at it. I had made success moving as stressful moving. 213 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: It's hard, it's hard to start over. But there's again 214 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: something very freeing about knowing, like, oh, is it not 215 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: working out here? Guess what you're going to get another 216 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: go in about a year, and maybe it'll be better 217 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: next time. 218 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Sophia is not alone in her 219 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: deflection training. She's in solidarity with her siblings Christopher and Julia, 220 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: who Sophia calls the perfect one, who are older than 221 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: she is, and Byron and Patrick, who are younger than 222 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: she is. And then there's Michael, the mysterious half brother 223 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: from her dad's first marriage. 224 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: The subject of my father's first marriage was fairly tabboo 225 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 3: in the house. Nobody ever told me about it. 226 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: It was information that was shared with me by my 227 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 2: older siblings kind of in secret again when I was 228 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 2: about eight years old, and nobody ever doubled check to 229 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: make sure I knew. 230 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 3: It. 231 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: Was just kind of assumed that it had gone through 232 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: the grapevine my younger brothers because I never talked about 233 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: it with them, they didn't find out until they were. 234 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: Teenagers about the existence. 235 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 2: Of this other brother, and it was one of the 236 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 2: great preoccupations of my adolescence because when I was around 237 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: twelve years old, I realized that I had a dad, 238 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: and I'd always had a dad, and my dad was 239 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: in my life, and I really took it in that 240 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: my dad hadn't been in my brother's life, and he 241 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: was my brother. You know, he's my half brother, but 242 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: that's my brother. You know, I'm surrounded by these siblings, so. 243 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 3: I adore we were all really close. 244 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: And there was somebody else out there who's a part 245 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: of me who I didn't know who he was. 246 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's interesting because there's this thread of 247 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: the unspoken or the unseid or what can be said 248 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: that runs throughout your story in a whole variety of ways. 249 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: You know, I was struck by your saying when your 250 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: dad would go to work that he was going out, 251 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, and if you pressed, you know, like where 252 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: you're going, what are you doing, he'd say, to see 253 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: a man about a horse, And that was like his deflection. 254 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: He was practicing what he preached. When Julia the perfect 255 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: One goes off to college, this now makes Sophia the 256 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: newly appointed eldest sibling at home with her two younger brothers. 257 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: Sophia's in high school, a chaotic and dramatic time for 258 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: most of us. I mean, would any of us really 259 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: want to go back? But Sophia's peculiar family life certainly 260 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: doesn't make matters easier. Plus she really misses Julia, her 261 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: north star. One day, a letter from Julia arrives in 262 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: the mail. It isn't addressed to Sophia though, it's for 263 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: her parents, and they don't want Sophia to read it, 264 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: but she does, and in it she reads Julia's confession 265 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: that she's told friend in school what their dad does 266 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: for work. She writes, in abject apology, that she's spilled 267 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: the beans. 268 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: She very rarely wrote me, and I had express permission 269 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: to read all of her letters. So when my mother 270 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: hid this letter from me, I lost my mind. I 271 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: couldn't believe that they were denying me this basic need 272 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: that I had to be in touch with my sister, 273 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: and I felt like I had a write to it. 274 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: So I just waited until the letter wasn't guarded. 275 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: I'd seen that my mother had put it away in 276 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: her purse, and like I said, I felt I had 277 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: the right to know what my sister was talking about, 278 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: and it was all coded. Basically, she told the secret. 279 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: She was so disappointed in herself. She was begging my 280 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: parents for forgiveness. She was clearly alarmed. And what had 281 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: happened was there was a boy at school who found 282 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: out how often she moved and began to say, your 283 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: dad's a spy. Your dad's a spy, and he was 284 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: harassing her at school. And I don't know how long 285 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: she sort of tolerated the harassment from this kid, who 286 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 2: I'm sure thought he was being incredibly clever, but she 287 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: snapped and kind of more or less confirmed his suspicions 288 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: and then felt compelled to confess to my folks. So 289 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: I find the letter, and he just all clicked into place, 290 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like that one thing and another. 291 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: It was all just like these little tiny things. It 292 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: was like realizing Santa Claus doesn't exist. 293 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: That's right, the moves, the secrecy, the need to keep 294 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: their nationality under wraps. Sophia's dad is a spy and 295 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: her mom is too. 296 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: You don't necessarily need to find the closet full of toys. 297 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: It's a random comment that your grandmother makes about where 298 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: she bought the headband and your stocking, and you go. 299 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: Wait a second, none of this makes sense. So yeah, 300 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: and I just knew. 301 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 2: And then I couldn't even tell them that I knew, 302 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: because then I'd have to confess this, you know, this 303 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: sin of going through their stuff. 304 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: So it became this. 305 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: Kind of like double ended lie that I had to balance. 306 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 2: And the greatest tragedy was that I had to pretend 307 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: to be amazed when they told me. 308 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: That's just fascinating. So that was the moment that you 309 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: put it together for yourself, like all of the little 310 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: pieces added up. So then you're keeping a secret about 311 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: a secret. 312 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I couldn't tell my sister that I knew. It's 313 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 2: easy to speculate about it now, but I might speculate 314 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 2: that the information on some level also was as well green, 315 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: and that it gave me permission to have a double life, 316 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 2: for whatever life, to have a secret life, to have 317 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: any sort of amount of secrets. I didn't really feel 318 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 2: guilty about, you know, pursuing friends or activities or interests 319 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: that weren't lining up with what my parents you know, 320 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 2: thought was appropriate for me, because clearly they felt fully 321 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: justified to have, you know, a deeply secret. 322 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: Life, and you know that it was official. 323 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: They were doing it out of deep sense of like 324 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 2: conviction and patriotism. 325 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 3: But you know, I just felt like, if they can, 326 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 3: so can I. 327 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting. So it kind of gave you 328 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: carte blanche to have a teenage rebellion and feel no guilt. 329 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 3: Yes. 330 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: So once I figured out that, you know, and I 331 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: knew it was CII how one, it was really the 332 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: only intelligence organization that I knew of, And this is like, 333 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: this is the way I conceived of it, you know, spy, 334 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: like technically officially and unofficially. 335 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 3: Cover, you know, uncovert. 336 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: This word spy's like it's a bit of an euphemism, 337 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: you know, for all sorts of intelligence work. 338 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 3: Right. 339 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 2: Also even things like the fact that, you know, I 340 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 2: loved the movie Patriot Games as a kid, and we 341 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 2: thought that my dad looked like Harrison Ford. We always like, oh, 342 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: it's just like daddy. 343 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 3: It's just like daddy. 344 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: And my parents were just delighted in that. They would 345 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: laugh too hard. 346 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 347 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: And I just knew it was agency because it was 348 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: the only acronym that I was actually familiar with at 349 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: the time, and I just happened to be right, and 350 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: then yeah, No, it was strange to keep the fact 351 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 2: that I knew that they were quote unquote spies from 352 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 2: them because I'd been. 353 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 3: Spine on them and the irony wasn't lost on me. 354 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: But it just wasn't worth the risk, you know, I 355 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 2: knew that if they wanted me to know, they would 356 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: have told me. 357 00:19:47,720 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. Meanwhile, 358 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: things are also fraught outside the home. There is the 359 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: ever present sense of instability and danger. A massive historic 360 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: hurricane hits where they're living at the time, it's international news. 361 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: People are being evacuated, but not Sophia's family. Her parents 362 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: aren't going to leave. There are city curfews and rationed 363 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: food and all sorts of restrictions, but Sophia's parents stay put. 364 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: And against this backdrop, Sophia is courting danger herself. She's 365 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: in the midst of a teenage rebellion and in a 366 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: third world country in the midst of a crisis. She 367 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: sometimes finds herself in unsafe situations. 368 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 2: Maybe what I was doing was more risky than the 369 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: average teenage rebellion for a number of reasons. Like I said, 370 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 2: I was conspicuously American. My parents were pretty convinced that 371 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 2: we were easy targets for all sorts of things. Kidnappings 372 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 2: were fairly common in many of. 373 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: The countries I lived in. 374 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 2: A few years before I started at the school I attended, 375 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: one of the student body had been murdered during his 376 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 2: kidnapping ordeal, and it was a horrifying shock to the community, 377 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: which was a very sort of privileged, ensconced type of 378 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: community like this was definitely like the elite of the 379 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 2: country attended the school I ultimately attended in high school, 380 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: you know, in that sense, it was risky. In the 381 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 2: other sense, I think that my parents used their perceived 382 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: risks of living in a third world country during a 383 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 2: crisis or not during a crisis, as a way to 384 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 2: keep me under wraps. I think that being a teenage 385 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 2: girl was just simply a lot for them to handle. 386 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: The fact that I was a teenage girl rather just 387 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 2: petrified them. They, like many parents, thought that there was 388 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: something inherent in my girlness that made me vulnerable, and 389 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 2: perhaps they were right. But you know, there's another side 390 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: to it where you can like actually repress someone. So 391 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 2: I did do it with very little guilt in the 392 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 2: sense that I also felt like they put me here, 393 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: like they put me in that country. They took me 394 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: to all of these countries, and then in the end, 395 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: we're literally asking me to stay behind a wall, and 396 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: I definitely. 397 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: Sort of carrying their secret around with me. 398 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 2: I felt deeply justified in ignoring that advice because you 399 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 2: gave this. 400 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 3: To me, You gave me. They literally gave me the world. 401 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 2: I decided to try my best to experience it as 402 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: much as I could. 403 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: Being a girl, I think was a point against me. 404 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: I just felt like all of these restrictions were deeply arbitrary, so, 405 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 2: you know, on a day to day basis, I we 406 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: resented them and wanted to do whatever I could to 407 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 2: trick them. 408 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 3: Into letting me do what I wanted. 409 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 2: There was a point in my relationship with my parents 410 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 2: in high school where I told myself that I was 411 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: only pretending to love them so that they would leave 412 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 2: me alone, which is a horrible feeling. 413 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 3: It's horrible to say that out loud. 414 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: Now, and I think it was a defense mechanism on 415 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: my part because I was young and I did want 416 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 2: to get away, and I was about to go to college, 417 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: and I think that was something I told myself to 418 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: soften the burden. But also, teenagers do desperately, at least I, 419 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 2: as a teenager, desperately was ready to start my life independently. 420 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, and to separate. But I'm thinking too, that 421 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: you were carrying around the knowledge that they had this 422 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: huge secret that they were keeping from you and from 423 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: everybody else, but from you. Did you feel betrayed at 424 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: that time? 425 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: I think it would have been far more poetic if 426 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: I'd been personally aggrieved by the fact that they were 427 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: keeping it from me. But once I figured out what 428 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: it was, I understood. 429 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 3: It's covert work. It's called being undercover. 430 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 2: And maybe they'd done a really good job throughout my 431 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 2: whole life of indoctrinating me to the merits of covert 432 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 2: work and the necessity of it. But I understood why, 433 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: and whatever sort of personal feelings I had more anger 434 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: that my sister knew before me, like I was more 435 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 2: jealous of my sister, I think I must have processed 436 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 2: it by the time they told me. 437 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 3: So when they did tell. 438 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: Me at this sort of like appropriate age, which I 439 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 2: believe was fifteen or sixteen years old, not only did 440 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 2: I have to pretend that, like I was amazed and impressed, 441 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: I'd also processed any sort of like bitterness I might 442 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: have had around it. They told me after breakfast one 443 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: Sunday morning, at the table, my little brothers had gone 444 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 2: off to play, and they were there was a little 445 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 2: bit of a ceremony around it. They were like, we 446 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: have something very important to tell you. We believe you're 447 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: old enough, you're mature enough. 448 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 3: You know. They built it up as this like a 449 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 3: great privilege of. 450 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 2: Being grown up enough to keep the secret along with them, 451 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: along with my elder siblings, and you know, I think 452 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: that's something else. Whether I felt it in the moment, 453 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: I definitely felt it as the years went on, that 454 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 2: to be brought in on a secret after I was 455 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 2: officially even though I had already known, even though I 456 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: had to like literally pretend and act and hope they 457 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: didn't figure out that I had already figured it out. 458 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 2: You know, all of a sudden, you're part. 459 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 3: Of a team. 460 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: And it's actually the problem with secrets is that they 461 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 2: corrode intimacy. But if you want to build intimacy, the 462 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 2: quickest way to get there is to share a secret. 463 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 3: So I felt very close to them. 464 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: Actually I love that. So they tell you and you 465 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: say your spies, and I believe it's your dad says no, 466 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: so intelligence officers. 467 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, that officially they were not spies. 468 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: I not supposed to characterize it like that. 469 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: And yeah, there's all sorts of official. 470 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: Categories to intelligence work, and there are many different parts 471 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: of it and different. 472 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 3: Ways that you can like work with it. But yeah, 473 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 3: that's kind of the way he would have characterized it 474 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 3: to me. 475 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: And my father even double checked with me and asked, 476 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: you know, so you're not mad. 477 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: You know a lot of kids apparently get really mad, 478 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 3: and I genuinely, I genuinely didn't feel that way. 479 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: Well, you had this sort of like intermetso exactly, you 480 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: had a couple of years there, you know, from fourteen 481 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: to sixteen or so, of knowing and of having your 482 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: own secret, which is that you knew. 483 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there might have been some guilt in there too. 484 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: Sophia has a conversation with her father in which she 485 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: asks him, so you lied because you had to write, 486 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: and he responds not exactly by answering, but by telling 487 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: her that their work depends on people seeing only what 488 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: they expect to see, and he also imparts this bit 489 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: of wisdom. He tells her that this strategy only works 490 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: because most of the time things are just as they seem, 491 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: except when they're not. 492 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,360 Speaker 2: This sort of was a sort of essential understanding between 493 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: me and my dad, but it heads a lot. But 494 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 2: we also had this sort of understanding. He believed in privacy. 495 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 2: He believed in my privacy. I think on some he 496 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: knew obviously on some level, what I was up to, 497 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: and I think he had a lot of trust in 498 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: me as well. I think that we related to each other. 499 00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: So that conversation where I basically, you know, confirm you 500 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 2: lied because you had to again is me seeking permission 501 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 2: in my own lives because I felt that I lied 502 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 2: because I had to, you know, it was the only 503 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: way to get what I wanted. Again, like a human 504 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: being can justify anything, but that's how I justified to 505 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: myself at that age. And that that was also just 506 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: something that he always drilled home that people will fill 507 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 2: in the blanks, and if they think they know the story, 508 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: you can sort of control the narrative of what details 509 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 2: they fill in. 510 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 1: And then he asked, would you ever consider a career 511 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: in the CIA. 512 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 3: I think my parents thought that I would be very 513 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 3: good at it. 514 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: Actually, I think they were minorly disappointed when none of 515 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: their children followed in their footsteps exactly. And there was 516 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: a time that I considered it very seriously. Actually, I 517 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: saw my parents had each other, and I think they 518 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: created a very sort of like secure and you know, 519 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: in many ways like beautiful, interesting life together, but it 520 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: sort of depended on the other person being in on 521 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 2: it and otherwise. I think that the sacrifices people who 522 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: do undercover work do, and in all sorts of realms 523 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: in the world, you know, when you purposefully have to 524 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: hide a massive part of your life, it isolates you. 525 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: It's deeply isolating. It affects all of your relationships. I 526 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: knew that it would be lonely for somebody like me, 527 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: who was a great chatter, you know, like who was 528 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 2: still that five year old who wants to chat up 529 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 2: strangers on the street and doesn't mind sharing all of 530 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: my stuff too. The oversharer and me perhaps knew that 531 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: it wouldn't ultimately be a good fit. 532 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: I did work briefly at the agency. 533 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: I don't talk about it very much, but I did 534 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: consider it very seriously interesting. 535 00:29:51,960 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: Well, family business, the family So, now, after this childhood 536 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: and adolescence and young adulthood of not being able to 537 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: talk about what it was that your parents did for work, 538 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: or to be able to explain the truth of your life, 539 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: what does it feel like now to have been able 540 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: to tell the story and to have it be a 541 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: part of your story. Now that is you know, that's 542 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: in the world. 543 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, the fact that it's known is something that I 544 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: still don't even know how I feel about. Sometimes there's 545 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 2: a lot of relief. I'm relieved to put it down. 546 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: It was something that I was asked to carry, and 547 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: I think was a great privilege to carry. But I'm 548 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: glad that I don't have to anymore. But I don't know, 549 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 2: secrets die hard, even when they're not secret anymore. The 550 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: muscle memory of deflecting, you know, skipping over huge central 551 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 2: details of my life so that people don't ask too 552 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: many questions, so because I don't feel like lying to 553 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 2: them that day, you know, having that same conversation. 554 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 3: Over and over again at a party. 555 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 2: If somebody asks me why I grew up overseas and 556 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,959 Speaker 2: I don't feel like talking about the CIA, I'll just 557 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,959 Speaker 2: sort of skip over it and say, oh, I kind 558 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: of had an interesting childhood. 559 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: What do you do? 560 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: I took my mother to a Christmas party though this year, 561 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: and somebody, a friend of mine who you know, also 562 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: had a very interesting childhood overseas, mentioned it enthusiastically and 563 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: gestured towards my mother, Well, you were in the CIA, 564 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: and my mother's poor face. Somebody who's knows that. 565 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 3: I've written this book, who's proud of me, has supported me, 566 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: gave me, you know, passit permission to. 567 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 4: Do it her face, their poor face. I knew that 568 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 4: I'd witnessed the first time in her entire life where 569 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 4: somebody casually said this at a party and mixed company, 570 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 4: and like the blood drained out of her face because 571 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 4: she wasn't. 572 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 3: Used to it, just because she wasn't used to it. 573 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: Intellectually, she knows it's not really a secret anymore, but 574 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: she was so uncomfortable and shocked for a moment before 575 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 2: she acclimated and remembered that the book exists in the world. 576 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: So I felt bad for her in that moment, But 577 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: I kind of feel like that too. 578 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: Ultimately, it's free that I. 579 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: Wouldn't say I'm totally comfortable with it yet maybe I 580 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 2: will be one Day. 581 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly z Acur 582 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 583 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 584 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 585 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 586 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 587 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 588 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 589 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: check out my memoir Inheritance. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 590 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 591 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.