1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: The city of Chicago's murder rate is the highest and 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: twenty years with more homicide than New York City and 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Los Angeles combined. And now a scathing Justice Department report 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: has concluded that Chicago police have routinely used excessive force 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: in violation of the Fourth Amendment. The report found widespread 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: racial bias, poor training and oversight of police, and a 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: pattern and practice of unnecessary use of deadly force. Chicago 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: Mayor Rahm Emmanuel says the city is committed to correcting 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: the problems. The incidents described in this report are sobering 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: to all of us. Police misconduct will not be tolerated 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: anywhere in the City of Chicago, and those who break 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: the rules will be held accountable for their actions. A 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: cord or to consent decree is not in place, an 14 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: a looming question is what will happen under the Trump administration. 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: Trump's nominee for Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, criticized consent decrees 16 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: during his confirmation hearing, those of us in high public 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: office do need to be cautious about demeaning whole departments, 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: in the whole groups of people, because of within those 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: most any departments you can find in America. Surely most 20 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: of the people are just wonderful servants, public servants trying 21 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: to do the right thing. But Attorney General Loretta Lynn 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: said the change in administrations will have no effect on 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: the Justice Department's agreement with Chicago. A transition is coming 24 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: in Washington, but the departure of one or two people, 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: and yes, the top people of the Department of Justice 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: move on, but this agreement is not dependent on one 27 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: or two or three people. Our guests are Stephen Russian, 28 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, and 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: Lock Bowman, Executive director of the MacArthur Justice Center at 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law. Luck what stands out 31 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: in this report of one sixty four pages, Well, the 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: standing UH To me, the most significant aspect of it 33 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: is how damning it is of the UH process system wide. 34 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: It describes an accountability system that is fundamentally broken and 35 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: a failure of training and oversight at every level. That's 36 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: created an environment where uses of force by police are 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: almost never questioned, typically not investigated, where there's no follow through, 38 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: where a code of silence that's prevalent in the department 39 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: enables UH misconduct, and where as a consequence uses of 40 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: force are commonplace and uh and UH, and a prevalence 41 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: of this kind of misconduct in certain neighborhoods and communities 42 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: on the south and west sides of our city that 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: are also plagued by the upsurge of violence that was 44 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: mentioned in the lead on to this. Well, Stephen, does 45 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: the report make any conclusions about the any connection between 46 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: what the Justice Department is found about the Chicago p 47 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: D and the upsurge in violence that Chicago has seen 48 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: over the last few years. So, I think drawing conclusions 49 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: between the uptick and violence and police action is always tricky. 50 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I've in my previous work tried to investigate 51 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: that wink, and that's a that's a tricky claim to make. 52 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: But I think the strongest claim you can say is 53 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: that whenever a police department is not viewed by their 54 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: constituents is acting legitimately, is acting to protect the community interest. 55 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: Whenever they're not viewed as just by the people that 56 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: they're serving, UM, I think there is an argument to 57 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: be made that that can contribute to increase crime and 58 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: a lack of cooperation between the public and the police department. 59 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: Luck the head of Chicago's police union said he thinks 60 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: the Justice Department heard its investigation in order to release 61 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: the results before Trump takes office. And we've certainly seen 62 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: a lot of actions by the Justice Department in these 63 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: final days of the Obama administration. Do you agree and 64 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: has that effect? If so, has that affected the report? Uh? No, 65 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean I I don't think that there's anything hurried 66 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: about the report. Casual perusal of it makes clear that 67 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: it's a careful and thorough process of investigation that unfolded 68 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: over the course of about a full year. Uh numerous 69 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: in depth interviews, deep dives into statistical information that was 70 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: provided to the investigators, a lot of on site conversation 71 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 1: with police uh lee ers in the political and uh 72 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: in law enforcement communities, and input from ordinary folks around 73 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: the city. So I think to use the adjective hurried 74 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: is inappropriate. All of that said, I think that you'd 75 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: be politically tone deaf not to be aware that fundamental 76 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: changes are coming at the national level. Stephen, What can 77 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: we expect to see in an agreement between Chicago and 78 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: the federal government? These are very serious charges. What what 79 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: is the Justice Department gonna want? Yes, I think Um, 80 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: that question relies a lot upon who is in the 81 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: Justice Department and who's calling the shots whenever the agreement 82 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: is negotiated. Um, if this were the Obama administration, I 83 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: think we would expect a far reaching consent to CREED 84 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: that would mirror those that have been used in other 85 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: large American cities, so places like New Orleans, places like Seattle, 86 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: or the Department of US. This has required a significant 87 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: package of reform that has required change in the training required, 88 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: changes in oversight mechanisms, changes in infrastructure to ensure adequate oversight, 89 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: the use of external monitoring to ensure that real change 90 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: is actually happening, and reports are filed regularly with a 91 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: federal distreport. I think that's the kind of package of 92 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: reforms you would expect to see costly but also largely 93 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: effective if we were dealing with the Obama administration. But UM, 94 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, one reality is is that we're not going 95 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: to be dealing or the that the City of Chicago 96 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: is not going to be dealing with the Obama administration. 97 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: They're going to be dealing with the incoming Trump administration. 98 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: And UM, I think, well, I, well, I you know, 99 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: the investigative findings here appear to be consistent and thorough 100 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: and what you would expect to see in any large 101 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: American city. Uh. I think there's no doubt that the 102 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: city or that the Department of Justice was trying to 103 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: get this agreement to agree in place, UM in hopes 104 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: of trying to counteract what maybe some political pushback by 105 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: the Trump administration to really buy in Chicago's hands. So 106 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we can predict what the agreement, if 107 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: there is an agreement, will actually look like, and whether 108 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: or not UM the Income Administration is going to actually 109 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: prioritize this agreement going forward. We're talking about a report 110 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 1: from the Justice Department, and it says that Chicago police 111 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: officers have a pattern of using excessive force. That's just 112 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: one of the many things that it says in a 113 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty four pages. We're talking with Stephen Russian. 114 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: He's a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law, 115 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: and Lack Bowman, executive director of the MacArthur Justice Center. Stephen, 116 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: unlike other cases where the Justice Department has investigated police, 117 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: in this case, there is no court ordered consent decree 118 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: in place. So can a new a g just simply 119 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: back out of it and not assign people to the 120 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: case and sort of let it go by the wayside. Yes, 121 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: so I think that's a possibility. UM. At this point, 122 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: there's no definitive obligation for the Department of Justice to 123 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: force the City of Chicago to agree to UM any 124 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: sort of a settlement or consent decree. If you look 125 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: over the UH the agreement that has been reached, it 126 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: requires the parties to negotiate a future agreement in good faith. 127 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: It also says that if the parties cannot reach an 128 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: agreement the Department UM, the d o J has the 129 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: ability to file a federal lawsuit to seek something called 130 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: an injunctive remedy. UM. So what that essentially means is 131 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: that enforcement of any future agreement or UM any any 132 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: attempts to reach an agreement is going to ultimately be 133 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: put on the back of the future Trump administration. So UM, 134 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: I think there's some some good political reasons why it 135 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: maybe not advantageous for the incoming Trump administration to try 136 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 1: to derail this reform process. But I think give and 137 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: what's been outlined, I think it's within their capability to 138 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: do so. Block. We know the Obama administration has been 139 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: fairly aggressive about UM what they want to see in 140 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: these UM In these consent decrees with police departments, independent 141 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: monitors UM, a lot of reporting, a lot of UH, 142 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: a lot of agreements as to training and how UM 143 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: and how police departments learned how to use force and 144 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: interact with citizens. Let's say the Trump administration feels that 145 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: it needs to enter an agree into an agreement in 146 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: the wake of this in Chicago still wants to do it. UM. 147 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: What would sort of if the true administration want to 148 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: do a kind of a lesser agreement that was had 149 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: less teeth to it than let's say the Obama people do. 150 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: What might they look at doing a sort of a 151 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: minimal agreement with Chicago here. Oh, I don't have any 152 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: idea what these people are going to do. I don't 153 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: know what a lesser agreement would look like. I I 154 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: think that the report itself is very clear about UH 155 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: the assessment of the investigators as to what's needed UH, 156 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: namely h A a detailed process of compliance with specific expectations, 157 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: expectations around the accountability system, expectations of of UM effectiveness 158 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: in investigation of in fact, investigating uses of force when 159 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: they occur, which which the report faults us for not 160 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: doing UM and so on. There's a long list of 161 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: needs that run the gamut from training at the beginning 162 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: of an officer's career UH to the way in which 163 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: discipline is handled on the back end of an incident 164 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: gone wrong. UM. In addition, the decree insists that a 165 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: monitoring process is necessary to ensure compliance with these detailed requirements. UH, 166 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: you know, uh, step by step along the way, in 167 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: order to keep the focus of administrators and politicians who 168 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: have imposed expectations as a result of the agreement. UH. 169 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: If all of that doesn't happen, for those of us 170 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: who live in Chicago, there's a really big concern that 171 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: this will just be another UM instance along the way 172 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: of UH findings and concerns and and uh you know 173 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: reports uh that had that dust been and don't affect 174 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: real change. I want to thank you both for being 175 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Law. That's Lock Bowman. He's the executive director 176 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: of the MacArthur Justice sent at Northwestern University Pritzgur's School 177 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: of Law. And Stephen Russian, he's professor at the University 178 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: of Alabama School of Law.