WEBVTT - Masks Also Helpful for Flu Season, Lustbader Says 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 and of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.240 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.199 by searching Bloomberg Global News. Jason, I run to this 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.879 next guest. We do it every week. Do um? I 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:42.239 do want to just put out there as we get 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.159 ready to talk with Dr Ian lous bader Um a 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.680 stunning and disturbing statistic and you can read about it 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.680 uh in depth on the Bloomberg But the US will 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.400 top two hundred thousand deaths from the novel coronavirus in 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.120 coming days, so talk about a milestone. So let's talk 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:00.480 about that and talk about where we are the virus 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.040 and in the race for a vaccine. Dr In Lusbader 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.880 is back with US clinical Associate Professor of Medicine at 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.160 n y U Landgown Medical Center on the phone in 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:12.200 New York City. UM. Dr LUs Bader, truly, Jason, I 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.480 look forward to these weekly conversations. How are you? My 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.480 pleasure always always great to be with you guys. And 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.679 I hope you have a healthy week is safe weekend, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.600 and uh, definitely it's a it's a challenge with all 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.959 the data coming in. It's hard to coordinate it all, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.039 but we'll try and make sense of it. So you know, Ian, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.080 I wanted to ask you about something because there's a 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.119 great article. I'm gonna put it on Twitter, and there's 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.800 a full personal disclosure here. Uh great piece in Time 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:43.560 magazine that was fluttered among my family because my aunt 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.039 in Atlanta, who is a nutritionist at emery UM, she 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.520 is part of a vaccine triallenge. She's interviewed in this 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:53.400 story and it's the Maderna vaccine and it gave me, 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.960 you know, some measure of hope in terms of her 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.920 being interviewed and one of the and what they're talking 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:03.440 about in terms of all these vaccines moving forward. Now 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.960 there are a lot of cautions in this piece as well, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:09.640 and it talks about, you know, the need for two 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.919 shots and the fact that you know, there's all these 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.400 different things going on. We don't know exactly what is 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.000 going to work, what combination of things are going to work, 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.120 the efficacy and the safety. What's the thing that you've 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.000 heard of late that's the most important when it comes 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:32.800 to vaccines in you know, this is really uncharted territory. 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.480 We we haven't dealt with the pandemic of this size 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:39.720 really since you know, the so called Spanish flew, and 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:44.400 we've had the swine flew another epidemics and pandemics. But 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.160 this is really uncharted territory, and we're learning as we 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.600 go in terms of the different manifestations and the diffused 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.040 clotting and and so forth, and how some people have 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:57.720 a very mild case and other people succumb. So I 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:00.239 think we're learning a number of things. One is that 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.720 even people who have the disease and who develop antibodies 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.560 do have lower antibody levels along the way. And I've 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.640 had a number of patients with very high antibody levels 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.680 who who do relatively well with the with the infection 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:20.120 and over time we've we've checked their antibodies and the 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.320 levels definitely seem to drop. Now we don't know how 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.639 far down there will go, and we don't know if 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.119 they have a cellular a T cell response that will 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:32.040 protect them. But this really does argue for everyone getting 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.080 a vaccine. We also don't know which is really going 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:38.960 to be the most effective vaccine. Is it a messenger 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.720 or in a you know, is it a different technique 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:44.680 that we're really going to have to see. We're just 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.560 starting to get the data from the phase three trials 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.800 with um you know, tens of thousands of patients getting 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.680 getting tested, and overall looks like at this point that 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.839 that it does seem fairly safe. There was that one 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.440 case with astras eneka, and there may be other cases 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.600 that will learn about, but overall it appears the vaccines 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.240 are fairly safe and from what I'm hearing, fairly effective. 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.120 Now how long that will be or will people need 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.400 a booster shot, which they probably will, I think we're 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.680 going to have to kind of see how that goes. 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.680 But of course, in the interim, you know, the cases 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.000 are in you know, have continue and of course, unfortunately 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.000 the depths now up to you know, over two D thousand. 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.119 We did anticipate these numbers. These numbers were just based 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.880 on the trajectory. They shouldn't be you know, of course 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:37.800 they're upsetting, but they shouldn't be shocking because we these 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.400 numbers were all really guestimated along the way. So I 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.600 think we're making some progress. So I do want to 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.599 ask you about a vaccine that because I'm thinking, Okay, 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:48.599 I'm at some point I'm gonna be taking a vaccine. 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.840 Should we wait for the one that is the most effective? 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.960 Is their complications with taking multiple vaccines? Like I want 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:03.279 to understand this as an individual, I think that great questions, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.640 Carol is as always, I don't think we have those answers. 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.880 And and is it possible that people may need two 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:12.359 different kinds of the vaccines in other words, of a 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.880 messenger RNA and perhaps another one. I think it's way 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.960 too early to determine that. And I think the first priority, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.160 you know, will be those frontline workers and healthcare workers 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:27.160 who who need some protection when they're encountering patients. UM 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.479 and I do suspect that eventually is more and where 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.559 people get vaccinated, it will be clear, you know, whether 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:37.640 combinations of vaccines work or whether you'll be protected. And 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:40.680 I think we'll be able to check antibody levels along 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:42.760 the way, and I think that will give us a 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.040 bit of a clue. But I think the feeling is 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.280 even if you have some exposure with a vaccine, even 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:52.800 if you have some antibody response, that should help in 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:57.719 reducing the severity of the effects of the virus. And again, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.119 we we don't know whether this will come back as 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.640 a seasonal coronavirus, which other coronaviruses you know are common 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:09.040 cold viruses or seasonal flu viruses. But vaccinating everyone, just 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.120 like we vaccinate everyone for the flu, should give some 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.000 degree of protection. Do we ultimately, and we're gonna come 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.160 back and talk, but just thirty seconds, do we ultimately 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.040 as a population, as a country, build up an immunity 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.080 that we don't need vaccines in the future. No, you 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.840 just said we're gonna probably have to be taking these. Yeah, 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.120 that's my sense. For people who have the disease, they 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.840 may be better protected. But we don't even know that. 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.400 Because we do see antibodies that are high and do 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.240 begin to drop down over time, we don't will they 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.960 go to zero. We don't know. When you read the 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.840 headlines about bank saying coming in and then got to 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.039 go home, or the Blasio, the mayor of New York 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:48.960 City saying, yeah, we're gonna hold off for a couple 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.200 of weeks. What do you make of it? Where are 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:55.400 we at this point? It's definitely again uncharted territory. But 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.279 I think everyone agrees it's important to get back to work, 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:04.279 both for or economic health and psychological health. Although we 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.080 do have a lot of patients who are very worried, 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.600 teachers and professors who are very worried about being in 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:15.600 close proximity to UH kids who, as we know, can 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.960 harbor the virus with minimal symptoms, And so I think 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.560 developing a good strategy to allow people to get back 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.920 safely is important. And part of that, some of the 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:29.440 data has come out that everyone wearing masks actually seems 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:34.480 to be reducing the incidents of influenza as well as coronavirus, 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.800 which makes sense right because obviously flu I mean, they're 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.280 both viruses, and they both are respiratory viruses, and both coughing, 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.920 sneezing and and so forth. So I think the whole 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.240 mass concept is going to be with us for for 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:52.280 a while, even during flu season. That being said, you 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:56.160 need a strategy to bring people back. What some colleges 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.680 are doing, um, you know, is the spit testing, the 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.760 antigen tests, which can be helpful before people come back 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.720 to school. Some of them are getting nasal swabs, which 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:09.040 can be helpful, you know. In New York City it's uh, 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.280 not everyone has access to that, but I do think 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.480 the schools can certainly do UM these pods where you 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.040 rotate kids who come in and group so smaller groups 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.320 because if one of those kids happens to get sick, 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.200 then you isolate that group, but you don't affect the 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.880 whole class. So there are a lot of strategies, and 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.480 even the CDC is a little unclear perhaps as to 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.480 the best strategy. There's not unlimited testing, and they recently 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.679 as of today, actually just reverse course on whether or 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.480 not you should test asymptomatic people. And I think certainly, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.559 if um, someone feels fine and they're going to visit 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.880 someone at risk, an elderly parent or relative, uh, it 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.160 does make sense to get a nasal swab, and if 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.680 that's negative, you can feel really pretty reassured that even 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:59.880 if you do masks or social distancing that your risk 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.240 of injuring your your relative is very low, whether or 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.240 not a random encounter in an elevator or you hear 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:11.640 someone in the office had COVID. Do you really need 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.480 to be tested? I think that's individual and if someone 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.040 feels completely fine, sure, in the vest of all worlds, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.600 it's probably not a bad idea to be tested. But 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.320 I don't think people should panicked about that because casual 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:27.600 contact is certainly outside if you're passing people and so forth, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.880 that's really a very low risk. I feel like in 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.040 an ideal world, I mean, we've kind of gotten used 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.800 to so for most of us wearing masks, like Jason, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.079 I were kind of kidding, you know that when I 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.160 leave the house, I kind of you know, if I forget, 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.080 I'm like, oh my god, It's like I'm not putting 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:42.880 a seatbelt on in a car. It just has become 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.160 such a part of our process. I do feel like, 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:47.480 do we get to a point in our world, especially 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.200 if these viruses are going to stick around in that 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.400 you know, taking a COVID test is going to be 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.480 as routine is brushing our teeth every morning. Uh well, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.319 you know, perhaps for the time being, until we do 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.080 get a vaccine, and just like people do not get 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.960 routine flu shots, are routine flu testing UM or nasal 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.520 swabs which we can do for influence. If people come 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:12.680 into the you're very sick, I see, ever, you know, 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:14.640 you do a nasal swab and you can determine if 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.559 they have the flu, or coronavirus or or a variety 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:21.599 of other respiratory pathogens. So I think when people get vaccinated, 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.840 and I understand the anti vax you know fears, but 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.920 when these are really safe and tested um, I think 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.760 that will significantly reduce the need for everyone to be 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.160 tested on a very frequent basis unless there's something that's 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.480 really suspicious. In the meantime, wear a mask right in 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.960 the means time, wear a mask, use your head, do 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.280 social distancing, and the and the number of cases, certainly 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.560 in the Northeast and in an area's pockets that are 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.720 careful that the number of cases does seem to be 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.680 going down, and hopefully that second wave will not be 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.320 as bad as we think, right right, Yeah, I mean 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.079 it does feel like and our things, Dr Ian les Bader, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.439 I mean it does feel like the science, even that 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.120 sort of retroactive science basically says, had we been wearing 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:14.160 masks in much greater numbers back in the spring, those 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.840 numbers don't hit where they hit when it comes to 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.480 sickness and death. The science is pretty clear on this 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:25.000 from the CDC, Tom Johns, Hopkins and elsewhere. Uh listen, 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:28.880 Morgan Freeman, he's saying where I'm asks, Keep Morgan safe, 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:30.800 Keep all of us safe. Listen. I now know that 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.000 if we get viruses like this in the future, like 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.120 right away, I bet most of us will put on 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.240 a mask. Its little mask I was wearing in the 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.400 office yesterday. It's like a It's like a festive Darth 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:45.680 Vader mask. You're so cool, Jason Killen. Thank LUs Bader 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.120 over at n y u Lando Medical Center. Really a 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.280 great go to voice for us who are listening to 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.960 Bloomberg Business Week. Well, I love this pairing Max Chafkin 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.080 and Joel Webber. Doesn't get much better than that on 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.599 a Friday. Plus Palintier it is a nutty company. And 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.840 to use a term of art, as it were, Max 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.800 Chaffkin wrote the story Palenteer bad mouthing big tech while 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.640 taking its tech public checks out. We are talking about 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:13.400 Peter Till after all he joins us on the phone 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:17.200 from Queen Joe Weber. He joins us from Massachusetts. All right, 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.720 JW set this up for us. So, so, I think 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.480 Max has been um really uh just one of these 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.160 watchers of Silicon Valley for years, and he spoke up 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.480 about this one because Palenteer has been really interesting company 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.200 in one that Business Week has covered uh more than once. Um. 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.720 And you know, he reminded us that there's a direct 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.960 listing coming because this has been a company that's been 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.200 privately held, uh, and now it will become public just 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.320 around the corner. But in the process of sort of 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.600 you know, it's walk up to its direct listing. It's 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.960 opting to go public via direct listing rather than an 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:56.960 I p O. It's also a little ironic because of 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:01.160 the company's um uh sort of anti Silicon Valleys stance 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.520 that it's also taken uh and that kind of also 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.600 speak to U. Uh. You know, the company's a little 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.840 bit of its heritage because obviously it's um, you know, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.680 Peter Teel backed. So so Max talked to us about 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.960 what Palanteer uh it's business looks like and why it's 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.760 so relevant in this moment. Yeah, I mean, so so 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.200 it's really interesting. It's been, as you say, it's been 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.960 around for a long time, seventeen years. The company UM 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.679 most people probably don't know much about it. If they 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.240 do know about it, they know it's vaguely controversial, it's 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:37.960 vaguely sort of wrapped up with UM intelligence work. Uh. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.600 The company was founded by Peter Teel, the the venture 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.240 capitalist founder PayPal after UM after nine eleven, and and 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.520 and and was famously used by the c I A. Uh, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.480 you know during that period. I mean, what's What's what's 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.960 pretty interesting here, besides all the all the sort of 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.160 hot button issues, is you have this company that when 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.840 you look at its finance chills look not especially great. 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.600 I mean, you know, it's it's it's it's losing hundreds 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.000 of millions of dollars and it's been around for seventeen years. 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.360 That's kind of the skeptical case. The more positive case 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.200 that you hear from investors from the company UM is 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.600 that COVID and and kind of the the way that 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.920 COVID has shifted the economy has been you know, a 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.880 really big boon to palent here in a couple of 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.320 different ways, it's led to new contracts. Obviously, Talent Here 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.640 has all these relationship relationships and governments. So they have 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:36.040 a contract with the h h S, the US Departments 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.720 Health and Human Services. It's worth like twenty one million bucks. 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.560 They've been doing a lot of sort of government work, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.760 and it's dramatically changed, um the numbers. I mean, in 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.920 other words, that they're their cost structure because in the 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:50.240 past Talent Here, the big knock on this company is that, hey, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:51.960 it's not a tech company. Is actually a sort of 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.040 a consulting company. They're flying people all over the world 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.160 to sell their products and to set up these sort 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.000 of software Uh, these are big expensive software engagements, and 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:04.320 that's super expensive. And you've seen there they're sort of 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.360 costs go way down over the line, um six months 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.360 or so. You know what's interesting, Max, There's a couple 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.000 of things that really jump out for me. First of all, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.480 I mean, this is a company that has thrived, as 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.040 you say your words, under President Trump. It's also a 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.320 company though, and we get critical of companies and tech 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:28.600 companies in particular, that's controlled by a trifecta. Yeah, this 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.680 is another one of these kind of uh, you know, 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.440 founder controlled arrangements and It shouldn't be surprising because you know, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.600 Peter Thiel was involved in the original kind of founder 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:41.560 controlled ring, which is the is the one that Mark 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.760 Zuckerberg enjoys and which is really the model for all 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:46.760 this stuff. I mean, he started a venture capital firm 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.000 called Founders Funds that's basically all about this um. So 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.720 no surprise, but the structure is is pretty weird. I mean, 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.800 you have the three co founders there, they own a 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.800 special classes of share it in a trust that trust control. 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.080 There's some probably some additional stocks owned by Peel and 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.520 these guys on top of that, plus a board that 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.840 is you know, it's I'm not sure what the legal 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.960 um sort of definition of independences, but these are a 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:18.120 lot of people with close relationships with the with Peel 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.280 and the founding team, so there's sort of a lot 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.360 of questions on independence. Anyone who's buying into this company 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.400 is not going to expect to have a huge amount 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.960 of of input and volunteers. Sort of being straight up 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:29.760 with that and saying, you know, this is you know, 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:31.600 this is a situation you know, taking or leave it, 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.120 which we've seen from Silicon Valley. You know, a lot 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.920 over the last fifteen years and um, it's mostly worked out, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:39.840 and sometimes it doesn't work out, so you know, well, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.960 we'll see once the once the listing happens. I think 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.800 that that's a really important and fascinating element of this. 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.080 It's that, you know, the way that this company is 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.760 going public is untraditional. It's opting for a direct listing 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.320 over the I p O. But then on top of it, 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.560 it's like there's this wedge that the company is opting 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:03.000 to put between itself and its potential shareholders and the 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.320 shareholders share you get shares in the company and like, 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.840 you know things to Max's earlier point, like on paper, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:11.720 this company has been around for a while, but also 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.840 hasn't had great financials, so you know what what is 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.199 in it for investors? Uh? Kind of maybe remains to 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.960 be determined here, um, since there there could be very 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.560 little oversight. But Max, that brings me to the other 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.600 thing I want to say, which is, you know, while 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.040 other tech companies in particular have used similar kind of 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:33.119 share class arrangements, one thing that's interesting about Palenteer is 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.560 back to the headline, the bad mouthing of Silicon Valley. 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:40.240 What's that about? Yeah, I mean, I think You're seeing 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.560 this a lot in you know, just across the economy honestly. 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:47.040 But but where there's a lot uncertainty right now and 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.399 around the around the election and Palenteer um obviously that 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.959 is a huge bearing on Palenteer's future because Palenteer has 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.080 has these gigantic contracts with the U. S government. US 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:02.160 government is currently can role by President Trump, who has 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.280 close relationships with Teal and you know, and and and 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.960 other members of the sort of Talenteer team. And and 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:14.760 so what's happening is Palenteer about a year ago um 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.760 was was getting hit really hard by protests of where 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:21.840 work it was doing for um ice basically, uh, you know, 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.240 providing software systems for you know, for for for the 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.080 US immigration authorities that lead to protests and and and 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.480 this is kind of the way they've decided to play it. 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.159 Whereas a lot of these other companies have tried to 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.080 sort of you know, work with their employees or you 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.560 know like basically you know, bend to their employees, uh, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.240 you know wishes. Palenteer is taking a different road, which 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.480 is much more like NOE. This is what we're doing. 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.639 You can you can take it or leave it. You 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:49.959 can have a good faith disagreement, but we do business 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:52.040 with the US government, and this is the US government 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.120 right now, which is you know, obviously a position that's 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.959 probably you know, more popular with conservative than than with 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.120 liberals and Silicon Values a liberal. So so I think 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.199 we're served seeing a bit of a political play right 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:09.119 where they declaring themselves allied in some sense with you know, 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.760 with with moderates and conservatives, you know, at the expensive 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:16.200 of goal. Fascinating and all eyes will be on Palanteer 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.560 next week with that direct listing. Thank you so much, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:20.840 Max Chafkin, You're the best. Great hear your voice, features 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.280 editor for Bloomberg Business Week, joining us from Queen's. Joe Webber, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.560 the editor of the magazine. He joined us from Massachusetts. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.240 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.000 Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. All right, talk to you a 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.320 little business week economics, and you just heard a little 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.480 bit of the big interview this morning that are on 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.520 Michael McKee. You frequently hear the dulcet sounds of his 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.719 voice on this radio program. He did catch up with 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.360 Atlanta President Raphael Bostick down in the A T. L. Earlier. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:53.960 Michael mckeugh is in New York, of course because it's 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.359 a remote world. But Raphael Bostick, of course runs the 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.360 Federal Reserve Bank down there, and he said US needs 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.680 to provide additional fiscal support for the US economy. That 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.119 economy obviously has lost momentum. Let's take a listen to 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:08.919 what he has to say before we get into a 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.720 conversation with our in house expert. Check it out. What 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.200 I would tell a policymaker is, look, there are lots 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:17.879 of sectors where there's still a lot of pain and 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.639 disruption that's going on. There are a lot of families 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.800 who have a significant amount of uncertainty, and those things 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.200 will wear on our psyche and our ability to grow. 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:29.879 So I would encourage them to think about ways that 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.879 they might provide support to help those who are in 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:39.480 more precarious positions, Uh, not have to struggle and worry, right, 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:41.960 provide some more aid for those who really needed. Of course, 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.160 that's Mike McKee a Bloomberg his interview with Atlanta Fed 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:49.080 President at Raphael Bostik. Let's get into this, uh, and 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.000 what are Yelena Shiltieva has to say Senior US economist 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.840 at Bloomberg Economics joining us on the phone from Long Island. Uh. 0:20:56.880 --> 0:20:59.920 This for our segment of Business Economics Business Week in 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.879 Mix on this Friday. So, Elena, I mean, man, I 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.240 feel like everybody agrees we need some more aid, We 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.760 need some more federal assistance because of the impact of 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.000 the virus. Um Your thoughts on what Pasta had to 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:14.840 say and how you see it. I know we've talked 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:20.879 about this before, sure, but basically he is, uh um 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.120 saying the same thing a lot of Federal Reserve members 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:28.760 to have already told us, including Chair powow Is that Uh. Well, 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.720 it has to do with the exploration of the six 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.880 hundred dollar ad on two benefits to claims to job 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.680 with claim benefits that expired at the end of July, 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.840 and the three hundred dollar add on um that was 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:48.800 a result of the executive borders signed by President Trump 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:53.040 in the beginning of August. They have also expired. So 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:58.119