1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: Body dots with Joseph's gotten more. January twenty sixth, twenty eleven. 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I guess, by all measure, is kind of an innocuous date. 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: I don't remember what I was doing on that date, 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: and unless it's your birthday perhaps, or you had some 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: seminal event that occurred, most of us would just look 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: at that date and just kind of march on. That's 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: what we do right in life. But for one family, 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: that date marks a moment in time that will be 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: forever written in their hearts. It's the date of the 10 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: death of Ellen Greenberg, and it also marks that moment 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: in time when both her mama and her daddy We're scarred. 12 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 2: Forever. 13 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks brother Dave 14 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: fourteen fourteen one, four fourteen years later, and we have 15 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: had I don't know, people throw around the term seismic 16 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: many times, but we've had kind of a seismic shift, 17 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: I think just in the past forty eight hours relative 18 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: to this case that has just it's gone on and 19 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 1: on forever and ever involved in Ellen and her death. 20 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: And there's been a ruling on the civil side of 21 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: all this, and I think that it is kind of seismic, 22 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: at least when you look at it from the perspective 23 00:01:59,680 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: of the fan. 24 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: Would you agree with. 25 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 3: That, Yes, one hundred percent, because we have the death 26 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 3: of Ellen Greenberg, and you and Nancy have done Nancy 27 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 3: Grace have done a remarkable job of studying this case, 28 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: and you know more about it than a lot of 29 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: the investigators probably and I have wondered ever since we've 30 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 3: started with this show of how is it possible that 31 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: in Ellen Greenberg's case, that she could go have so 32 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: many injuries, have her death ruled a homicide, and then 33 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 3: without explanation, without warning, it's changed from homicide to suicide 34 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: and sits there for the next fourteen years with the family, 35 00:02:54,160 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: the parents going through the most heartbreaking of cases, just 36 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 3: trying to get justice for their daughter. They don't believe 37 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: for a second that she committed suicide. The facts don't 38 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 3: seem to bear it out, but they've been like sis 39 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: if it was pushing the you know, the. 40 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: The boulder up the hill. 41 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm blown away that. Thankfully today we actually 42 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: are able to talk about some movement forward that actually 43 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: makes sense, and we have a medical examiner, doctor Osborne, 44 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: who actually is the guy who originally said it was 45 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: a homicide and then changed to suicide and has refused 46 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 3: to change it back since. 47 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: And I don't even know how that plays out, Joe. 48 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: I hope you can explain it. 49 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, I am gonna I am going to kind 50 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: of lay that out here. Lord knows, you know, when 51 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: when you get look, there's there are no guarantees in 52 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: this life that that you're going to have peace. I 53 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: think people labor under that delusion that life is going 54 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: to be perfect when you get to be a certain 55 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: age and it's not. As a matter of fact, you 56 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: have all kinds of things that happen, but for them 57 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: being up in age, and you know, there were residents 58 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: up up in PA and when all of this happened, 59 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: and people don't realize that. You know, Greenberg is a clinician. 60 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think, if I'm not mistaken, he's a dentist. 61 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: He has a baseline understanding of pathology and human disease pathology. 62 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: And here's another thing that he understands. He understands bibomechanics. 63 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: You know, the way the human body moves. And I 64 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: think for someone to sit there and you're trying to 65 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: explain to him from a medical legal perspective, that this 66 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: is in fact plausible that his daughter could have self 67 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: inflicted twenty Some people say more because there's some overlapping, 68 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: but twenty sharp force injuries and not to mention multiple 69 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: multiple contusions over the surface of her body. I think 70 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: that it would it would give it would give anybody pause. 71 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: But you have somebody that has a scientific mind like him, 72 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: and the equation just doesn't add up, you know, if 73 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: you apply logic to it. And I think that that 74 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: was one of the big driving forces, you know, and 75 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: then you know, to try to explain this a way 76 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: to try to say that this is in fact suicide 77 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: is very very difficult. But you know, back to my 78 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: case in point, I don't know if if many people 79 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: understand the financial burden that this has just wrecked on 80 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 1: this family and because they have literally given up everything. 81 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean, they they've had to sell their house, they've 82 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: moved away to another state now, and it has been 83 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: such a grind day for them. And you know, you 84 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: look at this in this precious child that you held 85 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: in your arms and that you nurtured, and you you know, 86 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 1: and she raised her adulthood. That's actually at the functioning, 87 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: got a job, you know, the whole nine yards, and 88 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: is in a relationship. You know, it's everything that you 89 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: could probably want. I'm sure that there were problems. Everybody 90 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: has them. We're not free in this life of problems. 91 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: There's no guarantees, but you get them to this point 92 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, she's found with a 93 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: knife sticking out of her chest, in her in her kitchen, 94 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: you know, in this kind of weird position on the 95 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: floor in an apartment that was locked from the inside. 96 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: Can we can we break that down a little bit, Joe, 97 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 3: For those who are who don't know the case as 98 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: well as you do, or even me. The death of 99 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg happened on a blizzard. As the blizzard is 100 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 3: on the way and in Philadelphia, and she's a teacher 101 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: at school, engaged, and. 102 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: She gets home. 103 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: She stops for gas on the way home, because you know, 104 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: most of us know when you have bad weather on 105 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: the way, you go ahead and get extra gas in 106 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 3: your car just in case. And that's what she did. 107 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 3: Stops Mike, gets gas and goes home. Now she's preparing dinner. 108 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: She's got food on the counter, she's cutting up a 109 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 3: salad in some other things. Her boyfriend or fiance brother 110 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: leaves the apartment to go to the gym on site 111 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: to work out, and in between the time that he 112 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: leaves the apartment to go work out and the time 113 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: that he returns, Ellen Greenberg decides, you know what, I'm 114 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: tired of cutting up this salad. I'm tired of thinking 115 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: about getting married. I'm tired of thinking about my career. 116 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: And you know what, it's just time for me to leave. 117 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: And I mean, that's the story we are told to believe, 118 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: and up until the last forty eight hours and then 119 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 3: what takes place physically, you know, to her that that 120 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: up until now, they've suggested that she did this to herself. 121 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: She tortured herself in such a way. 122 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 3: Joe, I can't even physically figure out how you would 123 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 3: inflict all this damage on yourself, no matter how committed 124 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: you were. It boggles my mind. So did I set 125 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: the table up properly to get to the point? 126 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: Okay, no, no, you did, brother. And that's the thing 127 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: about it, you know, with this it it's one thing. 128 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: And I've had people, Look, I've had people ask me 129 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: over these many years that that Nancy and I and 130 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: others have and my friend Gavin Fish have been talking 131 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: about Ellen's case. Well, Morgan, you're the one that was, 132 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, in the trenches, and you you worked as 133 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: a medical legal death investigator. Have you ever seen self 134 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: inflictedab wounds? Are cuttings, well, cuttings, cuttings and stab wounds 135 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: or let's say, insized wounds are different if you think 136 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: about people that have sliced their wrists, okay, in an 137 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: attempt to take their own life. Yes, and I've seen 138 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: various modalities. I've seen everything from butcher knives to as 139 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: we say in South Louisiana, filay knives. I've seen red 140 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: devil razor blades, scraping razor blades with actual duct tape 141 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: taped around the blunt edge so that they can maintain 142 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: a grip on it. A lot of planning went into that. So, yes, 143 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: the insized wounds as a means to take ones on 144 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: life do, in fact happen. More rare, however, are stab wounds. 145 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: And just so that we're clear, stab wounds literally taking 146 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: the business end of the knive, that sharp point and 147 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:08,119 Speaker 1: driving it into into one's person, okay, into a potentially 148 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: fatal location. That has happened. But Dave that that is 149 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: by far the exception as opposed to the norm. I 150 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: don't I think that people even in a heightened state 151 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: of of I don't know how to say it, psychiatric 152 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: distress for instance, even even that is really off putting 153 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: for them to think about stabbing, stabbing oneself, and you 154 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: you have to do it multiple times, many times, because 155 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: you don't know if you're actually going to strike a 156 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: vital area, Because just because you stab yourself does not 157 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: mean that it's going to end your life. With Ellen, 158 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: we've got, as people have stated, and as I've previously stated, 159 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: stat wounds, and they're not they are not anatomically consistent throughout. 160 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about just the anatomical makeup of the 161 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: location of the injuries that cover her day. They're both 162 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: anterior which means front and post heior, and not just posterior. 163 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: But we're talking about getting into literally, we're talking about 164 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: getting into the cranial vault, where we're talking about going 165 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: near the brainstem, brushing up against it, which is one 166 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: of the big bones of contention in this case and 167 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: has been. There was a pathologist at the Medical Examiner's 168 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: office in Philly, not Osborne. One of his colleagues that 169 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: was actually deposed because she had viewed she had viewed 170 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the samples and everything, and she actually concluded that Ellen 171 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: sustained post mortem injuries, particularly one of these in the 172 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: back of her neck. Now, how do you explain that? 173 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: And that's that's the toughest thing here. 174 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 3: I think Lember of injuries, Joe, how many times did 175 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: she actually have knife injuries to her body? 176 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, at twenty and there has been over the 177 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: period of time. I think some people have questioned an 178 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: assessment and this is not this is not I'm not 179 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: throwing as the young folks say, I'm not throwing shade 180 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: on doctor Osborne here. But one can have overlapping injuries. 181 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: We get it a lot with gunshot woes. We have 182 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: multiple gunshot woes, or where you have multiple assaults like 183 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma that leave lacerations, and you'll have these 184 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: communicating injuries. There's a couple of injuries that they thought 185 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: might communicate or it may have been one as opposed 186 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: to And again it comes back to how much can 187 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: you tolerate as an individual who is self inflicting these insults, 188 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: And that's that's the big question. Isn't it. Dave Ken, 189 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: a young woman who has her life laid out before her, suddenly, 190 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: in the midst of food preparation, stare down at a 191 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: household kitchen knife and decide in that one moment that 192 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: she is in fact going to end her life there 193 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: on the floor of where she has prepared meals for many, 194 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: many months. I want to tell you something, Dave, I've had. 195 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: I've had when you can elicit most of the time 196 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: when you can listit a a response from a forensic 197 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: pathologist in the autopsy room, like that, there's kind of 198 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: this moment in time when forensic pathologist you open you 199 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: open the bag for the first time, the body bag, 200 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: and when you can elicit a response from the from 201 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist of oh my, it's it's a moment 202 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: that you should mark, I think because most of the 203 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: time nothing really phases them, and most of the time 204 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: you're going to see this when you have multiple, multiple injuries, 205 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: like like grossly over the top. And I can only 206 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: imagine when doctor Osborne walked into the autopsy suite that 207 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: day and the text are there, the photographers are there, 208 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: and they unzip that bag and pull that flat back 209 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: and here you have this young woman that's laid out 210 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: before you, and she's got multiple stab wounds all over 211 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: her body. And listen, we're talking about Philly Day. 212 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: This is. 213 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: Nothing in that environment for Seed for them to see 214 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: a gross amount of trauma on a body. But even 215 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: I think that it would give him pause at that 216 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: moment in time to say, well, let's try to work 217 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: this out. And you know, one of the most difficult 218 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: things about trying to understand multiple trauma like this as 219 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: it ap applies to sharp force injuries is doing what 220 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: we refer to as tracking wounds because there's so much 221 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: study that you have to do externally. I mean, this 222 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: is a very involved autopsy. We're talking about first off, 223 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: taking photographs of the body if the body still has 224 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: clothing on and I think in her case it, and 225 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: then trying to marry up any of the little insize 226 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: if you think about taking a piece of cloth and 227 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: cutting a slit in it, trying to look you know, 228 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: because clothing is I can you know everybody understands clothing 229 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: is not static like our skin is. You're still going 230 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: to have individuals that when you look at the injuries 231 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: or the cuts and the clothing is it possible that 232 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: you can look at the clothing and marry up the 233 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: defect and the cloth with the stab wound. And that's 234 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: that's just the beginning, you know, beyond you know, we 235 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: do you know, X rays and all sorts of things. 236 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: Then you take the clothing off and you hold it up, 237 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: you examine it, you photograph it, and you allow it 238 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: to dry. You put it in a what's referred to 239 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: as a forensic clothes dryer, which we could get into that. 240 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: It's it's a separate, low humidity kind of thing that 241 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: we use. Then you have to go in and actually 242 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: physically look at the injury still external, before you ever 243 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: open the body. It's a daunting task. But here's the thing. 244 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: Every time you look at one of these injuries and 245 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: you try to compare it. Once you open the body up, 246 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: you track the wound. And one of the things you're 247 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: doing with tracking the wound, you're looking for, well, what 248 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: underlying vessels or organs are involved. Okay, you try to 249 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: look at the location and then probably one of the 250 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: biggest things is you try to see if there's actually 251 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the wound track And Dave, I got to 252 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: tell you most of the injuries that Ellen Greenberg sustained 253 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: had hemorrhage in the woond track. Okay, they were there. However, 254 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: one of the critical locations where there was no hemorrhage 255 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: in the woond track was the f four mentioned insult 256 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: to the back of her head per this consulting or 257 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: the colleague of doctor Osborne, who was a forensic pathologist. 258 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: So I've always been fascinated by that and the level 259 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: of injuries that have been sustained. You know, how do 260 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: you move on from that? How do you how do 261 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: you try to square that in your mind with these 262 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: pain centers that are firing. You know, I think that 263 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: you're kind of a handy man around the house. How 264 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: many times have you swung a hammer? And maybe what 265 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: was it? The old preacher said, I don't normally cuss, 266 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: but if there's a cuss word in me, it'll bring 267 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: it out. Yeah, hit your thumb with hammer. Well, that's 268 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: pain response, okay, And most people can identify with that, 269 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: tripping over piece of furniture in the middle of the night, 270 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, bruising your shin, stubbing your toe, those are 271 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: pain responses day. We're talking twenty times, brother that's. 272 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: My problem with all of this show. 273 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: You actually pointed out to me how oftentimes in a 274 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 3: suicide there will be more than one mark, there will 275 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 3: almost be a practice attempt. And I was fascinated by that. 276 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: In the science, you know, psychological scientific, knowing all the 277 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: different issues that go along to that. I don't want 278 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 3: to When I say fascinated, I hope nobody thinks I'm 279 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 3: being flipping because I don't want. 280 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: That's what we do, and you have to be fascinated 281 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: by it. You have to be, and that's what we're 282 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: here for. We're here for the science to try to 283 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: understand it. Because I still I got to tell you, 284 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: I still don't. It's hard for me to comprehend, I think, 285 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: to try to understand it. 286 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: But that's where with all of this show. 287 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 3: How is it possible that you could you could These 288 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 3: injuries are traumatic, several of them are beyond anything you 289 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 3: know that you could imagine, and to rule it a suicide, 290 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: one has to believe that in the midst. 291 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: That all of a sudden. 292 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: In her apartment as she's preparing dinner, she decides to 293 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: kill herself. And this is all the lead up time 294 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: to what was taking place. In the minutes before, does 295 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: not see there's nothing there that says something was going 296 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 3: wrong with her at that moment. 297 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: You know, there's none of that. 298 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: Now, Listen, half the world has anxiety, half the world 299 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: has depression. If you went down your street, every other 300 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: house is going to have some kind of you know, 301 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: medication that somebody's on. Okay, thankfully, that's nothing new under 302 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: the sun. Okay, but did her diagnoses of these issues 303 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: that she was in. She's planning a wedding, to save 304 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: the date card, all that stuff is going out, and 305 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: do you have enough to hang your hat on to 306 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: say that. Okay, this is now jumped from jumped from 307 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: a time where you know, I'm stable, I've been teaching 308 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: my classes, I'm not missing work, all that sort of 309 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: thing too. Okay, Not only am I going to end 310 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: my life, I'm going to end my life, arguably in 311 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: one of the most horrific ways that you can. It 312 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: just it doesn't mesh. And you know, we're not here 313 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: to do and I hate this term, but we're not 314 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: here to do a psychological autopsy. And that's that's for 315 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: other people. If you even believe that term, which I 316 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: have trouble with many times you can go back and 317 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: retroactively look at people's psychiatric records and then you know, 318 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: what are people saying around them that are in their world. 319 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: But just if you're looking at this from physical science standpoint, 320 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: and you're a clinician and you're trying to understand what happened, 321 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: then I think that it's important. And Dave, there's a term, 322 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: and you and I had mentioned this last night. We 323 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: had talked about this, you know, prior to laying this 324 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: down today. There's a term that physicians use, and it's 325 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: called a differential diagnosis. And that's where you have multiple 326 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: indicators of some type of indwelling disease or pathology that's 327 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: going on, or manifestation's physical manifestations, and it could be this, 328 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: or it could be that. Okay, you don't really know. 329 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: You're trying to kind of narrow it down. You get 330 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of people around you're looking at lab results. 331 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: They're scratching their heads and they're saying, oh, okay, you know, 332 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: I think that this is maybe a bowel obstruction or 333 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: and I'm just throwing this out there, a bowel obstruction 334 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: or I don't know, they've got some other manifestation in 335 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: their digestive track. They've ultimately the diagnosis has been made. 336 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: Let's just take let's take Osborne out of the context 337 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: of law enforce, which he is not. He is a 338 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: medical examiner. Okay. Homicides are not all he deals with, 339 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: all right, matter of fact, they're the lowest end of 340 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 1: what he deals with. You deal with fewer homicides than 341 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: you do anything else. So he's always having to make diagnosis. Well, 342 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: his ultimate diagnosis day, based upon the empirical scientific data, 343 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: was first an undetermined and I think initially initially a 344 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: homicide undetermined and then then you land on suicide. First off, 345 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: do you know how rare it is that a forensic 346 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: pathologist will change that ruling multiple times day. We only 347 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: have five choices here, We'll go over them again, Okay. 348 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 3: Please do Because we talk about this, people get kind 349 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: of confused at the terminology if you're not in the field, 350 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 3: and it does when when we think about homicide suicide, 351 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 3: there are some just crossover. 352 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: We we kind of messed things up, YEA, thinking. 353 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and everybody does. Could you know one of the 354 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: most cringe moments I'll ever have is when I see 355 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: a reporter come on, uh, come on the air and 356 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, they're breathlessly outside the medical examiner's office getting 357 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: that shot, you know, for the six o'clock news, and 358 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: they say, uh, the medical examiner has ruled the cause 359 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: of death as homicide. Right, Well, sugar, that ain't. 360 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know you say that, Joe, I've done that. 361 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 3: I have been that guy, and thankfully you corrected me. 362 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 2: I'm not kidding. 363 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: I was able to go back and change what I 364 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 3: said because it was I was like, I didn't know that, 365 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 3: I'm an idiot dot com. 366 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: It's it's not that's not a cause of death. That 367 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: is a manner of death. And we only have five 368 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: that we can choose from. Our doctor has used three. 369 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: You only got five. He's used three, one, two, three, 370 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: And now you know it. You begin to think about 371 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: a lot of the other stuff that you know that 372 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: that you consider went on with this case. I think 373 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: probably uh again, one of the most glaring things. 374 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: Is uh. 375 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: Uh that you know you've got You've got arguably one 376 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: of the most famous uh famous, I don't know. She's 377 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: a neuropathologist. Uh literally, one of the pioneers as far 378 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: as women go in the field of neuro Uh neuropathology. Uh, 379 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: Lucy Rourke Adams, you know, claiming that Ellen's case that 380 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: was consulted out to her, and Lucy Rourke Adams, who 381 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: is in her nineties, states that I've never seen this case, 382 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: this was never sent to me, you know. And so 383 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: you combine things like that with this jumping around of 384 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: this terminal you know, terminal ruling as far as the 385 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: classification of manner of death, and it causes it gives you, 386 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: certainly gives you pause, but it also erodes any kind 387 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: of trust that you might have. So, you know, when 388 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: it comes down to Ellen, we have finally landed in 389 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: a place where maybe we're starting to see a few 390 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: rays of sunshine break on the horizon. Maybe, just maybe 391 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: there's going to be some more definitive answers coming down 392 00:26:46,320 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: the track. There's by my way of thinking, at least, 393 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: there is little or no joy in anything involving a 394 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: homicide of your child. See what would be a better word. 395 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe peace. I don't know victory because 396 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: I can't imagine finding victory in this validation. Hope maybe 397 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: people throw that term around a lot, but hope that 398 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: before you finally close your eyes. 399 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: Breathe. 400 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: Your last breath that you screaming from the rooftops has 401 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: had an impact finally on the perception of your precious child. 402 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: I don't know justice, which is always kind of a 403 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: mushy thing, you know that people say, do people ever 404 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: attain justice? I don't know, But Dave, based upon what 405 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: we heard in the last forty eight hours, I think 406 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: that we've got some pause to perhaps be at least 407 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: intrigued and perhaps bearing witness to some peace coming down 408 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: the road. 409 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: Forks, I think that's important because you're talking about fourteen 410 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 3: years all right, when their daughter, when Ellen Greenberg died, 411 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: it was ruled a homicide because it was it appeared 412 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 3: to be anyway it appeared to be, I mean, a 413 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 3: homicide based on the injuries, the number, of the type, 414 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: all those things, and so they prepared, you know, for 415 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: the funeral and life without our daughter and let's find 416 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 3: the killer. Well, when her death was ruled it was 417 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 3: changed from homicide to suicide. They were given the warning. 418 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 3: It was just pulled the rug out from underneath, you know, 419 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: and let them fall. And ever since then, you know, 420 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 3: they haven't been fighting to have it changed to homicide. 421 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 3: They've been fighting just to have it ruled undetermined is 422 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 3: better than suicide. And they just want you know, you 423 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: and I have talked about peace and things like that 424 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 3: and justice and moving on, and in reality, you've got 425 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 3: a really big hole in your heart already. 426 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 2: This is your. 427 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 3: Daughter and now, for whatever reason, you're looking at something 428 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 3: that really does seem jacked up. It seems like something 429 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 3: really wrong is happening here. And we're talking about a 430 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 3: cover up. We're talking about we're talking about the basics 431 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 3: of life in the United States of America of what 432 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 3: we expect and demand of our public servants. Look, you're 433 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 3: going to protect and serve great protect and service all 434 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 3: you got to serve the family here what happened to 435 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: Ellen Greenberg. And they've been trying to get this looked 436 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 3: at reopened ever since, and finally they had You know, 437 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 3: you and I have covered them many times. They have 438 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: filed different suits or tried to get something done. They've 439 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 3: fired experts. You and Nancy did a reenactment or actually 440 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: had a stage thing because there were so many parts 441 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 3: of the scene of the crime that made absolutely no 442 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 3: sense based. 443 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: On what. 444 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 3: We were told in official statements. When you give a 445 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 3: statement to police of what you saw when you got there, 446 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,239 Speaker 3: and what you did when you got I mean, all 447 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 3: those things, and you're going the one that sticks out 448 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 3: to me. Ellen Greenberg's body is found leaning up against 449 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: the cabinet, sitting but on the ground, back against the cabinet. Yes, 450 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: and yet she has a horizontal line of blood going 451 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 3: from her nose to her ear. And in the world 452 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 3: in which we live, that is not a possibility. 453 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: No, it's not. It's an empirical impossibility that the flow 454 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: of any kind of liquid, you know, in blood obviously 455 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: is more viscous than water. But that is a telltale 456 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: sign of manipulation perhaps of the body, that the body 457 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: has been moved because of gravity, which is like the 458 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: one constant force. And I've talked about gravity in the 459 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: sense of in the past, post War mo, lividity and 460 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: those sorts of things that I love to you know, 461 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: use as indicators for PMI. With this in particular, though, 462 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: we're talking about the flow of liquid, and again that's glaring, 463 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: you know, how in fact can you do this? Here's 464 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: my thing, though, Dave, you know we're talking fourteen years 465 00:31:54,360 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: down range now from when this happened. Correct, we do 466 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: know that the door has been opened for the family. Yes, 467 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: relative to you know, we've got in correct me if 468 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: I'm wrong based upon the ruling, and I'll let you 469 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: give more detail about the ruling, but just correct right now, 470 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: Just correct me if I'm wrong. Doctor Osborn has stated 471 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: openly now that he does not believe. 472 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 2: That this is a suicide. 473 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 3: He says, this, Yeah, it is my professional opinion. Ellen's 474 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide, 475 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: he said, and this was he did give an example 476 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 3: of what helped make that determination for him all these 477 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 3: years later. He said, for example, whether Ellen's fiancee was 478 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: witnessed entering the department before placing the nine to one 479 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: one call in January twenty six, twenty eleven, whether the 480 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 3: body was forced whether the door was forced open as reported, 481 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 3: and whether Ellen's body was moved by someone else inside 482 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: the apartment with her at or near the time of 483 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 3: her death. That's what Osborne wrote is his reasons for saying, 484 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 3: I didn't know this. This is new information to me, 485 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 3: and when I found out now it doesn't make any sense. 486 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 2: And we all knew that. 487 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, we know that there were multiple consultations along the way, 488 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: So I can't imagine that a man of this esteem, 489 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: who the city of Philadelphia has put so much weight 490 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: behind what's the term that they'd love to use gravitas 491 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: based on his learned abilities as a forensic pathologist, that 492 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: he would not have had access to this information. I 493 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe he's had that moment, Tom, where that 494 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: epiphanal moment where he can sit back and say, eh, 495 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, maybe just maybe my way of thinking about 496 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: this was all wrong. Here's here's one of the one 497 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: of the things that is really troubling to me, Dave, 498 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: is the idea that her remains were documented at the scene. 499 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: How well were they documented? What did you miss at 500 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: that moment time? Was there anything to miss? And yeah, 501 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: I can assume that there was, how thorough because you know, 502 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: I it's and I'm not saying, you know, they initially 503 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: ruled this as a homicide. I think my question would 504 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: be is how enthusiastically was this case investigated as a 505 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: quote unquote homicide at that moment, Tom, because there are 506 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: certain steps and people don't know this about death investigation. Yeah, 507 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: we're human beings and we get there's almost like this 508 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: adrenaline boost that you get when you know, when you 509 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: walk into a scene you know it's a homicide, right, 510 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,359 Speaker 1: wrong or indifferent, there's something that kicks in in your 511 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: brain where you're thinking, oh my god, I gotta be 512 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: really careful here, I got to really be there, or thorough. 513 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm just questioning right now, I'm really thinking how thorough 514 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: has this been? And hopefully it has been, because you know, 515 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: you only get those few moments, even though it seems 516 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: like we stay at crime scenes forever and ever, gave 517 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: us a very short period of time in the whole 518 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 1: grand timeline. Now we're talking about fourteen years later. That 519 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: hour or two they spent out there at that scene 520 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: working that did they do everything possible to document the 521 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 1: dynamics of the scene, because this is a very dynamic, 522 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: dynamic event that occurred in a very small space, man, 523 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: a very small space. But you know, I am holding 524 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 1: out hope, tell me it. Just give us the quick 525 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: and dirty here, brother, about what are they saying now 526 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: relative to this? 527 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 3: Here's the big part of game. This coming down because 528 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 3: a trial was getting ready to start. They were trying 529 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 3: to see the jury. Two civil suits have been filed 530 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 3: by the Greenbergs, and they're trying to see a jury 531 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 3: for the first one. Now they've got two. One was 532 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 3: at the Supreme court level. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court was 533 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 3: slated to hear one of these cases later on. 534 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: Now. 535 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 3: The first suit was filed in twenty nineteen and it 536 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 3: was slated for a hearing before the Supreme Court, and 537 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 3: it sought to have the manner of Ellen Greenberg's death 538 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 3: changed from suicide back to homicide or undetermined. They had 539 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 3: chased that through the court system all the way up 540 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 3: to the state Supreme Court. The second suit, which was 541 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 3: filed in twenty twenty two, slated that that was for 542 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 3: the trial this week. That was the actual Hey man, 543 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 3: we're seeding the jury right now. And it alleged to 544 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 3: be in a civil case, yes, all civil, and it 545 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 3: alleges that the investigation into Ellen Greenberg's death was quote 546 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 3: embarrassingly botched and resulted in a cover up by Philadelphia authorities. Now, 547 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 3: in this particular case, it saw monetary damages for intentional 548 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 3: infliction of emotional distress against several city employees who were 549 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 3: involved in the investigation. This is what was going on 550 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 3: when this agreement was struck between the city and the 551 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 3: Greenberg's and it does impact the other case as well, 552 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 3: because this stops everything. Okay, now that we're getting this 553 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 3: from Osborne, they've been asking Osborne forever change this. You know, 554 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 3: you can change it. Done determined, you don't have to 555 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 3: call it Hume, We don't. That's not where eff. We're 556 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 3: just after this saying this, This is not a suicide. 557 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 3: That's all we're saying. 558 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: I got to tell you one thing about this that 559 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: had come out earlier, and I still remember this where 560 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: they were saying that we have no authority over the 561 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: metal examiner. Then they are an independent entity within the 562 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: governmental structure. They make these determinations. You cannot force them 563 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: to do anything, okay, because they're independent of the police. 564 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: And here's the thing about it, Dave, you really wonder 565 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: what the driver is behind this, because when you have 566 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: a medical legal authority that changes an opinion multiple times, 567 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: then you begin to think about undue influence. Is there 568 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: somebody else within this construct, the investigative construct, that is 569 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: pressing the buttons here? And I think that that's something 570 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 1: that is going to be explored. I have to say, 571 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,240 Speaker 1: now you flip the switch, okay, because if in fact 572 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: they rule this as a homicide, they reclassify this as 573 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: far as a manner of death. If they flip that switch. 574 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: When you flip that switch and you use the H word, 575 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: you set all kinds of things in motion because you 576 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: have to look at it. Okay, well, is this a 577 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: cold case. No, it's not a cold case. 578 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: It is not. 579 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 3: It's only been active from the parents standpoint though. 580 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: Right it has, but it's kind of gone into stasis, 581 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: if you will, this kind of paused moment with with 582 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: the with the authorities. Now we're going to see if 583 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: they rule this as a homicide, if they change that 584 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 1: ruling to homicide, We're going to see how bad they 585 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: want it. And I ain't talking about the green Bergs. 586 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the authorities because as horrible as this 587 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: was for Ellen and is what a continual assault its 588 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: men upon the green Bergs, it does give one pause. 589 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: And here it is for every Ellen Greenberg case in Philadelphia, 590 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: how many other cases are there out there where you 591 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,959 Speaker 1: haven't had the same time poured into it, the same resources. 592 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: That mind, you almost broke the Greenberg family financially, and 593 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: on one level, it did the emotional the emotional stamina. 594 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: Maybe some people don't possess that how many other cases 595 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: are there, and this is a big step, I think, 596 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: and trying to reassure the public that perhaps those in 597 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: charge are now taking notice and they're going to have 598 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: to rebuild trust in this one area that a lot 599 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: of people don't normally think about, but I think that 600 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: I could say it's one of the most critical areas 601 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,960 Speaker 1: because we're not talking about a park being made for 602 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,320 Speaker 1: kids to play, and we're not talking about after school, 603 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: we're not talking about road repairs. We're talking about the 604 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: most precious thing in the world, a life that was 605 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: ended far too soon. I'm Josephcott Morgan and this is 606 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: body Backs.