WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: Nicholas Rudd 0:00:07.565 --> 0:00:12.285 The School of Humans to be honest with views. 0:00:12.485 --> 0:00:15.765 It happened so fast, and I mean I just woke 0:00:15.885 --> 0:00:18.125 up to him banging in my house saying that he 0:00:18.285 --> 0:00:21.765 just got shot. And the hell, my whole. 0:00:21.845 --> 0:00:24.565 Porch just covered in blood right now, I mean, he 0:00:24.725 --> 0:00:25.925 was just covered in blood. 0:00:27.085 --> 0:00:31.165 On July thirtieth, twenty twenty, in Stark County, Indiana, a 0:00:31.245 --> 0:00:33.285 nine to one to one call came from North County 0:00:33.365 --> 0:00:37.525 Road ten to twenty five East just before three thirty am. 0:00:38.245 --> 0:00:40.805 The caller had worked late that night. He had gotten 0:00:40.805 --> 0:00:43.245 home and climbed into bed when he said that he 0:00:43.325 --> 0:00:45.965 and his fiancee were woken up by someone pounding on 0:00:46.005 --> 0:00:49.485 their door. The man was twenty seven year old Nicholas Rudd. 0:00:50.245 --> 0:00:53.845 Nick said that he had been shot, but neither the 0:00:53.885 --> 0:00:57.405 caller nor his fiancee had hurt any gunshots. What the 0:00:57.405 --> 0:00:59.605 caller didn't know was that Nick had not been shot. 0:01:00.205 --> 0:01:02.685 He had been attacked with a hammer and stabbed in 0:01:02.725 --> 0:01:05.885 the neck. He was bleeding to death on their door step, 0:01:06.685 --> 0:01:09.685 and the killer was still outside. 0:01:09.805 --> 0:01:10.885 I'm Catherine Townsend. 0:01:11.325 --> 0:01:14.045 Over the past five years of making my true crime podcast, 0:01:14.125 --> 0:01:16.805 Helen Gone, I've learned that there is no such thing 0:01:16.925 --> 0:01:20.245 as a small town where murder never happens. I have 0:01:20.365 --> 0:01:23.925 received hundreds of messages from people all around the country 0:01:23.965 --> 0:01:26.445 asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, 0:01:26.805 --> 0:01:30.565 their families, and their communities. If you have a case 0:01:30.605 --> 0:01:32.805 you'd like me and my team to look into, you 0:01:32.845 --> 0:01:34.965 can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder 0:01:35.005 --> 0:01:38.245 line at six seven eight seven four four six one 0:01:38.285 --> 0:01:42.085 four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six 0:01:42.245 --> 0:01:45.165 one four five, or you can send us a message 0:01:45.205 --> 0:02:37.845 on Instagram at Helen Gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. 0:02:38.525 --> 0:02:42.845 So the caller refused to let Nick inside the house. Understandably, 0:02:43.005 --> 0:02:45.485 they wanted to help, but they were also afraid and 0:02:45.565 --> 0:02:48.525 wanted to assess the situation first, so they called nine 0:02:48.525 --> 0:02:51.525 one one, but by the time nine one one got there, 0:02:52.205 --> 0:02:56.685 Nick was gone. Nick ran to another neighbor's house. Now 0:02:56.725 --> 0:02:59.525 by this time Nick was bleeding to death. When he 0:02:59.565 --> 0:03:03.165 got to another neighbor's home, he collapsed. The neighbor ran 0:03:03.205 --> 0:03:05.485 out into her porch and tried to help him, while 0:03:05.565 --> 0:03:09.005 also calling nine one one and putting towels over Nick's wounds. 0:03:10.085 --> 0:03:12.685 While she tried to render first aid. She told the 0:03:12.725 --> 0:03:16.205 dispatcher that she was talking to Nick. The dispatcher asked 0:03:16.205 --> 0:03:19.285 the caller to keep talking to him, to ask who 0:03:19.325 --> 0:03:19.845 shot him? 0:03:20.525 --> 0:03:21.605 Okay? Can he answer you? 0:03:22.885 --> 0:03:23.125 Yes? 0:03:23.845 --> 0:03:24.125 Okay? 0:03:24.165 --> 0:03:24.845 Who shot. 0:03:26.285 --> 0:03:29.645 He says he can't breathe. 0:03:32.165 --> 0:03:32.445 Okay? 0:03:32.445 --> 0:03:33.565 Did he say who shot him? 0:03:33.685 --> 0:03:33.925 Honey? 0:03:34.085 --> 0:03:37.165 That's I need to know, he said, She said, a 0:03:37.325 --> 0:03:39.045 bald guy. 0:03:39.085 --> 0:03:40.525 It's very hard to hear. 0:03:41.245 --> 0:03:44.445 Nick is gasping for air, but the caller was able 0:03:44.445 --> 0:03:46.485 to get him to say that his name was Nicholas, 0:03:47.045 --> 0:03:51.125 and Nick said a bald guy had shot him. He 0:03:51.285 --> 0:03:55.565 died before the paramedics arrived. Police rushed to the scene 0:03:55.605 --> 0:03:58.205 and quickly realized that Nick had not been shot. He 0:03:58.205 --> 0:04:01.365 had actually been stabbed. He had defensive wounds on his 0:04:01.485 --> 0:04:03.725 right arm and a fatal stab wound to his neck. 0:04:04.605 --> 0:04:08.005 After that s woon, he would have bled out in minutes. 0:04:08.805 --> 0:04:10.325 But who would want to kill Nick? 0:04:10.805 --> 0:04:12.365 And why? 0:04:12.525 --> 0:04:15.125 Nick was twenty seven years old, and though we had 0:04:15.165 --> 0:04:18.525 a troubled past and became involved with drugs in high school, 0:04:19.165 --> 0:04:20.805 he had seemed to be trying to get to a 0:04:20.845 --> 0:04:25.365 better place. He grew up in North Judson, Indiana. It's 0:04:25.365 --> 0:04:28.885 suburban with a population of about twelve hundred, and like 0:04:28.925 --> 0:04:31.925 any small town, it's somewhere where everyone seems to know 0:04:32.005 --> 0:04:34.605 each other, but it's also a place that has had 0:04:34.645 --> 0:04:39.005 its share of property crimes, drugs, and violence. We talked 0:04:39.045 --> 0:04:41.605 to Nick's friend Cliff Gosh. 0:04:41.685 --> 0:04:45.165 I met Nick in fifth or fourth grade. Yeah, I 0:04:45.165 --> 0:04:51.085 think he just came back from moved back from Georgia. 0:04:49.205 --> 0:04:53.245 And we met. We got along pretty much right away, and. 0:04:53.245 --> 0:04:55.525 We were friends for probably the good part of like 0:04:55.645 --> 0:04:58.365 ten years, probably best friends all the way through high school. 0:04:58.405 --> 0:05:01.605 We were pretty much inseparable, everything from like playing guitar 0:05:01.685 --> 0:05:05.725 and chasing girls, you know, going to party. You know, 0:05:06.245 --> 0:05:09.085 it's just the high school kids. I think we were 0:05:09.565 --> 0:05:11.925 safe havings for each other for a lot of things 0:05:11.925 --> 0:05:13.605 in high school. I know, he had like a really 0:05:13.645 --> 0:05:18.285 crappy upbringing, and. 0:05:16.965 --> 0:05:18.325 You know, he would come to stay and me with 0:05:18.485 --> 0:05:20.205 me and my dad for like a week at a time, 0:05:20.565 --> 0:05:20.765 you know. 0:05:21.125 --> 0:05:24.645 So we were super close, and then we had a 0:05:24.685 --> 0:05:28.725 bit of a falling out because he was doing bad stuff. 0:05:29.805 --> 0:05:32.805 Cliff said that during high school, Nick got into drugs, 0:05:33.405 --> 0:05:38.205 beginning with marijuana and then eventually methamphetamines. Nick also got 0:05:38.285 --> 0:05:41.765 involved in crime, and Cliff believed some of those early 0:05:41.845 --> 0:05:47.405 decisions changed Nick's life Eventually, Cliff said that Nick stole 0:05:47.645 --> 0:05:51.525 Cliff's father's identity, which led to Nick being arrested and 0:05:51.565 --> 0:05:55.565 convicted of forgery in twenty eleven. According to court records, 0:05:55.765 --> 0:05:57.725 he was sentenced to eighteen months in prison. 0:05:58.565 --> 0:06:00.525 Yeah, that was pretty much out of our relationship. I 0:06:00.565 --> 0:06:02.365 didn't talk to him, So we didn't talk for like 0:06:02.445 --> 0:06:03.685 six years. 0:06:04.325 --> 0:06:06.605 Nick had been in a relation relationship with the mother 0:06:06.685 --> 0:06:10.205 of his daughter, and when he got out, the relationship 0:06:10.325 --> 0:06:15.045 ended acrimoniously after a custody battle. Nick's family said that 0:06:15.085 --> 0:06:19.605 he no longer saw his daughter. Then he got married 0:06:19.685 --> 0:06:23.725 to Destiny in twenty fourteen. His family said that she 0:06:23.885 --> 0:06:26.565 was a very good influence on Nick. They had two 0:06:26.605 --> 0:06:29.205 sons together, and for a while life was good. 0:06:29.925 --> 0:06:30.805 It looked like. 0:06:30.845 --> 0:06:34.165 His life had started to turn around. Cliff said that 0:06:34.245 --> 0:06:36.925 he actually ran into Nick just a few days before 0:06:36.925 --> 0:06:37.365 he died. 0:06:38.445 --> 0:06:42.965 It's it was difficult because we had you done so 0:06:43.045 --> 0:06:46.125 much for each other. I know, like he's made bad 0:06:46.165 --> 0:06:49.725 decisions or whatever, but like I always wanted to be 0:06:49.805 --> 0:06:51.045 his friend, to be there for him. 0:06:51.125 --> 0:06:52.685 So when I seen him, he was like, hey, man, 0:06:52.805 --> 0:06:54.965 like you know, you know I'm doing good. 0:06:55.005 --> 0:06:59.445 We should hang out, play some guitar, and I kind 0:06:59.445 --> 0:07:00.925 of just say, you know, I don't know, it's still 0:07:01.005 --> 0:07:04.645 kind of I was almost there, but not lay there, 0:07:04.645 --> 0:07:07.605 and it's a little I get hold of them. 0:07:08.085 --> 0:07:18.685 So that was after them, But those times didn't last. 0:07:20.125 --> 0:07:24.325 A few months before he died, Nick and his wife Destiny, separated. 0:07:25.085 --> 0:07:27.965 Since he was no longer living at home, he started 0:07:27.965 --> 0:07:31.085 staying on and off with friends, including a guy named 0:07:31.085 --> 0:07:34.365 Brandon Combs. On the night he was killed, Nick was 0:07:34.405 --> 0:07:38.365 hanging out about half a mile away with his sister Stephanie. Stephanie, 0:07:38.405 --> 0:07:41.125 by the way, knew Brandon from way back. Also, like 0:07:41.165 --> 0:07:44.925 I said, it's a small town. Nick was planning on 0:07:45.005 --> 0:07:47.925 going back to Brandon's. At this point, he'd been staying 0:07:47.965 --> 0:07:50.925 at Brandon's for a few weeks. Stephanie said that she 0:07:51.005 --> 0:07:53.325 was texting back and forth with Brandon to ask when 0:07:53.365 --> 0:07:56.485 he would be home, and that finally, I think around 0:07:56.525 --> 0:07:59.925 three am, Brandon texted back to say that he was 0:07:59.965 --> 0:08:03.765 there at his house. So Stephanie drove Nick there. When 0:08:03.765 --> 0:08:07.165 they got there, she went in Brandon's house with Nick. 0:08:08.165 --> 0:08:12.405 And so when we went down there, I was out 0:08:12.445 --> 0:08:14.405 of milk at the house, so I got. 0:08:14.245 --> 0:08:16.165 Some milk from Brandon and I just made sure. 0:08:17.045 --> 0:08:19.125 I told him to make sure Nicholas got to say, 0:08:19.445 --> 0:08:21.765 you know, he needed to get to sleep, not to 0:08:21.805 --> 0:08:25.525 little leave or go with anybody. And he was I mean, 0:08:25.565 --> 0:08:27.765 he acted normal to me. But like I said, I 0:08:27.925 --> 0:08:30.525 was using at the time. But as far as I 0:08:30.525 --> 0:08:36.485 can remember, Brandon act was perfectly normal. The only weird 0:08:36.525 --> 0:08:38.725 thing is get a huge TV in his room, and 0:08:38.765 --> 0:08:40.685 that's where that him and Nicholas were at, and he 0:08:40.725 --> 0:08:43.685 had all of his degree cameras put up on the 0:08:43.805 --> 0:08:45.765 you know, they were pulled up so you could see 0:08:45.845 --> 0:08:47.045 every angle of the house. 0:08:48.045 --> 0:08:52.365 Stephanie left minutes later, and then a few minutes after that, 0:08:52.925 --> 0:08:55.845 the killer approached the house with a hammer in one 0:08:55.885 --> 0:08:59.685 hand and a spearlike object in the other. Police quickly 0:08:59.685 --> 0:09:02.285 figured out the killer kicked the door of Brandon's house down. 0:09:02.845 --> 0:09:06.485 Brandon and Nick ran out the back. Nick was carrying 0:09:06.525 --> 0:09:09.285 the hammer when he left the house, so obviously he 0:09:09.405 --> 0:09:12.965 fought his killer, and then the killer continued to chase 0:09:13.045 --> 0:09:15.845 him to the neighbor's house. That's where he was stabbed 0:09:15.845 --> 0:09:18.325 in the neck, which ended up being the fatal wound. 0:09:19.005 --> 0:09:21.805 He also had a defensive wound on his upper right arm, 0:09:22.165 --> 0:09:28.725 which he probably sustained while fighting for his life. Brandon's 0:09:28.765 --> 0:09:33.205 house in the neighbor's houses quickly became crime scenes. After 0:09:33.285 --> 0:09:38.165 police checked security cameras, they found that Brandon's house did 0:09:38.245 --> 0:09:42.005 have a camera outside the front door. Unfortunately, there was 0:09:42.045 --> 0:09:45.445 no footage of the fatal attack, but there was footage 0:09:45.445 --> 0:09:46.005 of the killer. 0:09:47.485 --> 0:09:48.365 Lieutenant Calea. 0:09:48.445 --> 0:09:52.005 Miller described the footage and said, quote, just before that 0:09:52.085 --> 0:09:54.045 nine to one one call was made, there was a 0:09:54.085 --> 0:09:56.605 male suspect seen kicking in the door of the home 0:09:57.085 --> 0:09:59.365 and it appears that the suspect is armed with a 0:09:59.405 --> 0:10:03.085 hammer and bladed object. He gains entry, we see Nick 0:10:03.165 --> 0:10:06.605 run out. He is being chased running toward the house 0:10:06.645 --> 0:10:10.445 where they called nine one one end quote. This footage 0:10:10.485 --> 0:10:14.165 has not been shown to the public, but Nick's mother, Michelle, 0:10:14.205 --> 0:10:16.925 and sister Stephanie were allowed to view it at the 0:10:16.925 --> 0:10:17.525 police station. 0:10:18.525 --> 0:10:20.325 So you see Nick running out of the house. 0:10:20.805 --> 0:10:22.805 Nick runs off the porch and he runs into the 0:10:22.805 --> 0:10:25.245 grass that you can't see him because he run into 0:10:25.285 --> 0:10:28.565 the house next door. It is a thirty or forty 0:10:28.605 --> 0:10:32.205 five seconds time before this guy comes out of the 0:10:32.245 --> 0:10:35.605 house after Nick, a good thirty to forty five seconds, 0:10:36.005 --> 0:10:39.285 and Nick when he comes out before this guy. He's 0:10:39.325 --> 0:10:42.565 got the hammer whatever it is, in his hand. I'm 0:10:42.565 --> 0:10:44.885 sure he fought with the guy. You more or less 0:10:44.925 --> 0:10:47.765 see the time of the image in the light itself. 0:10:48.405 --> 0:10:51.845 Walking along the road is Brandon's house. From the porch 0:10:51.925 --> 0:10:56.325 to the road was not even thirty forty feet something 0:10:56.405 --> 0:10:59.765 like that, so Nick, of course the guy was looking 0:10:59.805 --> 0:11:00.205 for Nick. 0:11:00.405 --> 0:11:01.165 Nick was hiding. 0:11:02.085 --> 0:11:06.005 Michelle talked to local media and the police. Eventually the 0:11:06.045 --> 0:11:08.925 police did release an image to the public. They gave 0:11:08.965 --> 0:11:12.445 it crime stoppers and hope that someone might see something 0:11:12.885 --> 0:11:14.845 something that would be able to help solve the case. 0:11:15.765 --> 0:11:19.005 The photograph was taken on night vision and for red camera, 0:11:19.405 --> 0:11:23.525 so it's very blown out. Everything looks white, but it 0:11:23.565 --> 0:11:26.765 appears as though the killer was wearing a dark colored 0:11:26.925 --> 0:11:30.605 possibly a black suit and hoodie. And just thinking back 0:11:30.605 --> 0:11:33.245 to what Nick said about a bald man shooting him, 0:11:33.565 --> 0:11:36.005 the killer may have been bald, but in the image, 0:11:36.365 --> 0:11:38.365 he also looked as if he could have been wearing 0:11:38.405 --> 0:11:41.205 something that covered his hair, possibly a ball of clava, 0:11:41.885 --> 0:11:44.445 and it looks like he may even have a mask 0:11:44.605 --> 0:11:47.765 covering his face. It's just really hard to tell due 0:11:47.805 --> 0:11:50.685 to the lighting. He also seemed to have on some 0:11:50.725 --> 0:11:53.685 sort of protective goggles. By the way, I'm saying he 0:11:53.925 --> 0:11:57.405 because the police have described the suspect as male, obviously 0:11:57.445 --> 0:12:00.485 we don't know for sure. It does appear to be 0:12:00.525 --> 0:12:03.765 a male, but that's really all we know. Because the 0:12:03.845 --> 0:12:07.445 killer was in disguise, we also know he was carrying 0:12:07.485 --> 0:12:09.765 a hammer in one hand and something else in the other. 0:12:10.365 --> 0:12:13.125 We talked to the detective in charge the investigation, who 0:12:13.245 --> 0:12:16.605 confirmed that the killer was holding a homemade weapon of 0:12:16.605 --> 0:12:20.325 some kind, some type of spear attached to what appeared 0:12:20.325 --> 0:12:21.965 to be a cattle prod. 0:12:24.565 --> 0:12:25.925 Stephanie is very. 0:12:25.765 --> 0:12:28.125 Open about the fact that at the time her brother died, 0:12:28.485 --> 0:12:32.125 she was a heroin dealer, and she revealed that Nick 0:12:32.205 --> 0:12:36.245 had also recently begun using heroin. His drug usage was 0:12:36.285 --> 0:12:38.725 one of the reasons he and his wife, Destiny separated. 0:12:39.205 --> 0:12:43.645 But besides Stephanie and Nick, Stephanie said almost no one 0:12:43.645 --> 0:12:46.925 else knew that he was using heroin. Along with the 0:12:46.925 --> 0:12:50.285 footage from the first caller's front door, police also found 0:12:50.405 --> 0:12:53.085 video of the front of Brandon's house taken from a 0:12:53.125 --> 0:12:56.965 doorbell camera. Again, they have not made this footage public, 0:12:57.765 --> 0:13:01.365 but Michelle and Stephanie have seen it, and they described 0:13:01.405 --> 0:13:05.845 what they saw to us. The footage shows stephanielling up 0:13:05.885 --> 0:13:08.965 to Brandon's at around three fifteen am, and then Nick 0:13:09.005 --> 0:13:11.805 getting out of the car. They both went inside the 0:13:11.805 --> 0:13:14.725 house for a few minutes. Then the video shows Stephanie 0:13:14.805 --> 0:13:17.565 going back to her car alone and her vehicle leaving. 0:13:18.605 --> 0:13:22.045 Then just minutes later, the killer approaches the door. But 0:13:22.125 --> 0:13:24.485 we don't know where the killer came from. Did he 0:13:24.605 --> 0:13:28.165 drive there, did he park somewhere or with someone else 0:13:28.245 --> 0:13:32.645 driving a getaway car. Nick's family finds the timing suspicious. 0:13:33.085 --> 0:13:36.005 They wonder how did the killer know to come to 0:13:36.085 --> 0:13:40.365 Brandon's house right after Stephanie left. Stephanie said that due 0:13:40.365 --> 0:13:43.765 to her drug dealing, she changed vehicles frequently. She said 0:13:43.805 --> 0:13:45.965 that only a few people knew what kind of car 0:13:46.085 --> 0:13:49.365 she would be in that night. Was this a coincidence 0:13:49.965 --> 0:13:52.405 or they wonder could it have been some kind of setup? 0:13:53.485 --> 0:13:57.285 In that video, right before the killer arrived, Michelle said 0:13:57.325 --> 0:14:01.085 she could see a car passing Brandon's house. She wondered, 0:14:01.485 --> 0:14:02.565 could this be the killer? 0:14:03.485 --> 0:14:06.845 This car drives by really and you can't it's black 0:14:06.885 --> 0:14:09.485 and white. You can't see the car. You see the lights, 0:14:09.605 --> 0:14:13.445 you see the headlights, So it passes the house and 0:14:13.565 --> 0:14:18.205 it probably goes down from just what we gather because. 0:14:17.925 --> 0:14:19.645 Of the guy walking up to the back porch. 0:14:20.045 --> 0:14:23.405 He probably goes down and then somebody gets out whatever, 0:14:23.485 --> 0:14:25.565 and then there's a little side road, and so within 0:14:25.605 --> 0:14:27.565 a few minutes you see this guy walking up to 0:14:27.645 --> 0:14:28.045 the deck. 0:14:28.485 --> 0:14:30.245 Brandon had like patio doors. 0:14:30.565 --> 0:14:33.525 They were glassed, which is what is another strange thing 0:14:33.525 --> 0:14:35.245 to me, That you're in the back and not facing 0:14:35.325 --> 0:14:36.805 the road. You're in the back of the house. He 0:14:36.925 --> 0:14:40.165 wanted to break in, Right, there's your patio doors. You're 0:14:40.205 --> 0:14:42.805 looking through them. Then the guy looks heard of the camera. 0:14:43.725 --> 0:14:47.285 In the video, the killer approaches the house and then 0:14:47.485 --> 0:14:50.445 kicks the door down and walks inside. About forty five 0:14:50.485 --> 0:14:53.965 seconds later, by Michelle and Stephanie's descriptions, you can see 0:14:54.005 --> 0:14:56.765 Brandon coming around from the back of the house. He 0:14:56.845 --> 0:15:00.405 apparently crawled out of a window and Nick followed him. 0:15:00.885 --> 0:15:03.205 After they got out of the house, the video shows 0:15:03.245 --> 0:15:06.805 them taking off in separate directions. Nick ran toward the 0:15:06.805 --> 0:15:10.885 first caller's house and Brandon, well, it's not clear where 0:15:10.885 --> 0:15:11.285 he goes. 0:15:11.845 --> 0:15:13.205 Police found him the next day. 0:15:14.045 --> 0:15:16.165 They didn't find him until like three or four o'clock 0:15:16.205 --> 0:15:17.485 that next afternoon. 0:15:17.685 --> 0:15:18.725 Oh where did he go. 0:15:19.845 --> 0:15:23.765 He supposedly fell asleep at a ditch bank, that's what 0:15:23.845 --> 0:15:26.845 he said. When they finally found him, he told a 0:15:26.885 --> 0:15:30.165 story that he climbed out the window, which is a coward, 0:15:30.605 --> 0:15:33.245 and he said that Nick was behind him, because when 0:15:33.285 --> 0:15:34.965 the guy comes up to the porch and kicks the 0:15:34.965 --> 0:15:37.325 door down, So when the guy goes to the back 0:15:37.885 --> 0:15:40.165 then you don't see him. But then he comes up 0:15:40.165 --> 0:15:43.525 to the front porch, of course, and he kicks the 0:15:43.565 --> 0:15:46.405 door for five or six times at least. Yes, he 0:15:46.485 --> 0:15:48.685 takes his leg and he's kicking this door. 0:15:49.845 --> 0:15:52.845 A lot of rumors were flying around after Nick's death, 0:15:53.445 --> 0:15:56.845 but everyone seemed to agree on one thing. They believed 0:15:56.845 --> 0:15:59.365 that the killing had been a hit, that someone went 0:15:59.365 --> 0:16:02.725 there that night because they were targeting someone at that house, 0:16:03.405 --> 0:16:08.085 probably nicko commenting on these rumors on social media, and 0:16:08.165 --> 0:16:11.725 there were even comments about potential suspects on Nick's obituary, 0:16:11.965 --> 0:16:16.565 asking about two people whose names we keep hearing. We 0:16:16.605 --> 0:16:20.045 will call them Jay and h their first initials because 0:16:20.285 --> 0:16:23.285 they have not been arrested or charged with anything. In fact, 0:16:23.325 --> 0:16:25.685 no one has been arrested or charged at all in 0:16:25.685 --> 0:16:30.805 connection with Nick Rudd's murder. Jay was Michelle's cousin, Stephanie, 0:16:30.845 --> 0:16:33.565 said that she believed Nick had been spending time with 0:16:33.645 --> 0:16:36.965 Jay's girlfriend. Jay was much older in his fifties, while 0:16:36.965 --> 0:16:40.085 his girlfriend was closer to Nick's. Ah H was a 0:16:40.125 --> 0:16:43.765 younger friend of Jay's, so there is a rumor that 0:16:43.885 --> 0:16:47.605 Nick may have been involved in a love triangle with Jay. 0:16:47.645 --> 0:16:48.605 But another mode of. 0:16:48.525 --> 0:16:51.725 People mentioned was drugs, that Nick might owe money to 0:16:51.765 --> 0:16:55.605 someone for drugs. In fact, Michelle said that one of 0:16:55.645 --> 0:16:58.925 the last texts that Nick sent her involved a drug 0:16:58.965 --> 0:16:59.885 debt to Jay. 0:17:00.685 --> 0:17:02.965 And one of the texts that he had sent Nick 0:17:03.045 --> 0:17:05.325 one probably the last text that he sent Nick was 0:17:05.845 --> 0:17:07.765 you know about if he get paid, He's get a killing. 0:17:08.645 --> 0:17:11.245 So drug debts do seem like they could be a 0:17:11.285 --> 0:17:14.925 possible motive, but something police told Nick's family made them 0:17:14.965 --> 0:17:16.725 believe money was not the motive. 0:17:16.725 --> 0:17:16.925 Here. 0:17:17.885 --> 0:17:21.005 The police recovered nick wallet from his body and it 0:17:21.045 --> 0:17:23.965 had five hundred dollars in it, So if money was 0:17:24.005 --> 0:17:27.685 the motive, surely the killers would have taken that cash. 0:17:27.765 --> 0:17:30.685 And in talking to local sources, we have not so 0:17:30.845 --> 0:17:34.205 far found any evidence of a big drug debt. It 0:17:34.245 --> 0:17:36.965 appears that the debt that Nick o Jay was around 0:17:37.005 --> 0:17:40.085 one hundred and fifty or two hundred dollars, which doesn't 0:17:40.085 --> 0:17:42.365 seem on the surface like an amount that would cause 0:17:42.405 --> 0:17:44.165 someone to take the risk to kill. 0:17:46.285 --> 0:17:47.405 After Nick Rudd was. 0:17:47.445 --> 0:17:51.405 Murdered, rumors were flying about possible people of interest, people 0:17:51.445 --> 0:17:55.165 who supposedly had recent conflicts with Nick. But there were 0:17:55.205 --> 0:17:59.165 more and more rumors flying around, one involving a love triangle. 0:17:59.845 --> 0:18:03.325 So might there have been another reason why Jay would 0:18:03.325 --> 0:18:13.085 have wanted to hurt Nick. As rumors were flying around 0:18:13.125 --> 0:18:18.005 Stark County, Indiana, online commenters and Nick's family started suspecting 0:18:18.045 --> 0:18:21.405 a couple of different motives involving Jay. One that was 0:18:21.405 --> 0:18:24.445 seeming less and less likely was money. The other was 0:18:24.485 --> 0:18:28.445 a love triangle. Stephanie said that Jay had a girlfriend 0:18:28.605 --> 0:18:31.165 and that Nick was in some way involved with this woman. 0:18:31.965 --> 0:18:34.445 If this is true, it could have made Jay or 0:18:34.485 --> 0:18:38.125 someone who knew Jay angry. Jay is apparently older, in 0:18:38.165 --> 0:18:41.845 his fifties, but people who have seen the photo and 0:18:41.965 --> 0:18:45.725 no Jay have told us that Jay has a very 0:18:45.765 --> 0:18:49.645 distinctive look, and everyone who has seen the photos agreed 0:18:49.725 --> 0:18:52.765 the killer looks like a much younger man and also 0:18:53.005 --> 0:18:57.365 just does not seem to match Jay's description. So Nick's 0:18:57.365 --> 0:19:01.365 family wonders if Jay could have possibly hired someone to 0:19:01.445 --> 0:19:05.325 target Nick. One theory discussed was that Jay and ten 0:19:05.805 --> 0:19:08.605 for his hip man to just beat Nick up or 0:19:08.645 --> 0:19:12.045 scare him, but then Nick surprised the killer by grabbing 0:19:12.045 --> 0:19:15.165 the hammer and fighting back. I want to back up 0:19:15.165 --> 0:19:18.165 a bit and talk about some misconceptions about hit men, 0:19:18.605 --> 0:19:21.325 or to be less sexist, I could say hired assassins, 0:19:22.125 --> 0:19:23.885 but just know when I say hit man, I mean 0:19:23.965 --> 0:19:27.645 hit man and hit women when we see movies. Normally, 0:19:27.685 --> 0:19:32.205 these assassins are glamorous James Vond style figures like villain 0:19:32.325 --> 0:19:35.485 l and Killing Eve, or professionals who are quirky like 0:19:35.565 --> 0:19:37.125 John Cusack and Gross point blank. 0:19:37.525 --> 0:19:39.125 But the reality is very different. 0:19:39.845 --> 0:19:42.245 And as someone who handles a lot of fraud cases 0:19:42.285 --> 0:19:45.165 from my other podcast, Red Collar, I know that most 0:19:45.285 --> 0:19:48.645 hit men are not like that normally. Very often they're 0:19:48.645 --> 0:19:51.685 low level gangsters who carry out hits for very little money, 0:19:52.245 --> 0:19:55.125 a lot of four and five figure amounts, and they 0:19:55.165 --> 0:19:57.845 tend to make a lot of mistakes because when you 0:19:57.925 --> 0:20:01.165 hire hit man, you get what you pay for. Also, 0:20:01.565 --> 0:20:03.565 a lot of times people who want to kill someone 0:20:03.885 --> 0:20:06.445 will hire one of these low rent hit men, and 0:20:06.525 --> 0:20:08.565 to do that they go to their circle of friends. 0:20:09.125 --> 0:20:11.325 Now this means there is more loyalty there, but it's 0:20:11.325 --> 0:20:14.365 also big problem because there is a connection between the 0:20:14.405 --> 0:20:17.485 person who hired the assassin and the assassin. They are friends, 0:20:17.485 --> 0:20:19.765 they hang out together, and if one of them gets 0:20:19.765 --> 0:20:23.565 busted by the police, likely sold the other one. There 0:20:23.605 --> 0:20:26.925 was a study in twenty fourteen by Birmingham City University 0:20:27.085 --> 0:20:30.085 in the UK. The professor who ran the study told 0:20:30.165 --> 0:20:34.165 NBC News quote, these images are Hollywood eyes. The hit 0:20:34.245 --> 0:20:36.445 man seems like quite an attractive image that people are 0:20:36.485 --> 0:20:40.485 responding to. They are professional, very confident, hyper masculine. 0:20:40.685 --> 0:20:43.525 End quote. He goes on to explain that that's a 0:20:43.525 --> 0:20:44.125 total myth. 0:20:44.685 --> 0:20:47.485 The professor said, these hits are not taking place in 0:20:47.485 --> 0:20:51.965 internationally glamorous locations like casinos. They're happening while people are 0:20:52.005 --> 0:20:54.805 out walking their dogs or coming home from the grocery store. 0:20:55.325 --> 0:20:57.965 He said, quote, the hits were not in the underworld. 0:20:58.205 --> 0:21:00.685 They were in the overworld, and usually with passers by 0:21:00.725 --> 0:21:03.325 as witnesses looking on in abject horror. 0:21:03.485 --> 0:21:04.765 End quote. 0:21:04.845 --> 0:21:07.605 He had some other interesting statistics that I'll share just 0:21:07.645 --> 0:21:10.525 because I am actually fascinated by this stuff. He said, 0:21:10.565 --> 0:21:12.605 Tuesday is the most common day of the week for 0:21:12.645 --> 0:21:16.405 a hit. March, May and July are the most common months, 0:21:16.925 --> 0:21:20.725 and the average cost of killing someone is just over 0:21:20.765 --> 0:21:24.525 twenty five thousand dollars. The highest payout he saw was 0:21:24.525 --> 0:21:27.045 one hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars, but this was 0:21:27.085 --> 0:21:28.885 back in twenty fourteen, so it might. 0:21:28.765 --> 0:21:30.045 Have gone up since then. 0:21:30.405 --> 0:21:33.285 I do find the dark part of myself wondering, as 0:21:33.325 --> 0:21:35.925 someone who studies this stuff, if hit man are affected 0:21:35.925 --> 0:21:41.685 by inflation. The study broke hitman down into four types. 0:21:42.325 --> 0:21:45.365 Type one they called the novice. This is the inexperienced 0:21:45.445 --> 0:21:47.885 killer like someone's high school cousin, or the very young 0:21:47.965 --> 0:21:50.845 gang members send out in a hit because he's probably 0:21:50.845 --> 0:21:52.845 too young to be prosecuted, at least that's what the 0:21:52.845 --> 0:21:56.405 other members believe. The second type is called the diletant. 0:21:57.125 --> 0:21:59.405 This is the type of hit man who doesn't really 0:21:59.485 --> 0:22:01.485