1 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: we need to make conformed and educated decisions to have success. 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: this started here. Everyone, Welcome to another episode of the 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: Market Disruptors podcast. Today I am joined by Nathaniel Whitmore. 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: He's the author of Long Read Sunday and The Crypto 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Daily three on three, both on Twitter. I've been following 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: for a long time and you should check it out anyway. 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: I'm happy to have you, Nathaniel. Welcome, Thank you, thanks 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: so I'm happy to talk to you as well. We've 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, I've been following your stuff for for a year. 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: You put out really good curated information um on Twitter. 17 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: But why don't you tell everybody who you are, kind 18 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: of what your background is and and how you got 19 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: here what you're doing? Yes, sure, so that I was 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: kind of joked. There's like two parts to the how 21 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: I got into crypto story. The first is kind of 22 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,559 Speaker 1: the obvious one at first glancewers that I spent about 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: a decade in Silicon Valley. Uh, kind of bouncing back 24 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,479 Speaker 1: and forth between venture capital roles and operator roles. UM 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: one of those as I was helping a company, I 26 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: advised a company that went through UM why I combinated 27 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: at the same classes coin Base. That company was sort 28 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: of a helps fortune five hundreds understand new technologies through 29 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: educational videos, consulting partnerships, etcetera. And like they were making 30 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: videos about bitcoin for Coca Cola, kind of private videos 31 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: ordered by Coca Cola and like. So so that's kind 32 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: of the the easy or clear part in some ways. 33 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: But then before that, actually my whole kind of background 34 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: of where I came from was much more focused on 35 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: social impact and kind of global social change. So, uh, 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: right after a university, I basically stuck around my university 37 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: for a few years to design programs to send kids 38 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: all over the world who wanted to make an impact 39 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: and kind of partner with local organizations and figure out 40 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: how to do that and uh, and a lot of 41 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: what that the goal of that program was is to 42 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: show just how hard it is. Right, there's a huge 43 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: amount of energy that comes especially from young people who 44 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: want to go out and make a difference, but then 45 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: get to wherever it is that they want to go 46 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: or they want to have an impact, and find that 47 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: there's just huge structural problems. Uh that um that you know, 48 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: at best, they're going to kind of nibble around the 49 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: edges of the problems and it's not bad, but it's 50 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: not necessarily what they're going for. And so it's interesting, 51 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: Like it actually took me leaving Silicon Valley so my 52 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: wife and I live in the Hudson Valley now, um 53 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: and breaking kind of away from from Silicon Valley to 54 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: almost like re contextualized bitcoin and crypto in general, but 55 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: particularly Bitcoin outside of the Hayman's narrative which had dominated 56 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: it from you know, when we were in it with 57 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: coin Base and when we're making those videos for Coca Cola. 58 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: Like if you look at uh in Silicon Valley in particular, 59 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: bitcoin is just one of a lot of different kind 60 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: of like fast mobile money type things, right, Like it 61 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: was this cool thing that you could use to order 62 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: coffee at Cooper Cafe and Palo Alto when you were 63 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: pitching a VC, Like literally that's that's what it was. 64 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: For for for me kind of being in it and 65 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: now admittedly it wasn't my main focus, and I was 66 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: pretty um tunnel visioned on the company that I was 67 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: working on that time. But when I left and got 68 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: out of it and I started to actually have space 69 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: to to dig back into it, it turns out that 70 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: for me, at least, it's it related much more to 71 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: that first set of things that I had done before 72 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley that were about large scale global structural change, 73 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: and that's kind of what pulled me all the way 74 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: back in. So for the last few years, I've been 75 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: kind of all in on on bitcoin and crypto, UM 76 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: and UH, and that manifests in a couple of different ways. 77 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: As you said, I do the Long Read Sunday, which 78 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: is kind of a curation of the week's top tweets UM. 79 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: I recently started a thing called Crypto Daily three at three, 80 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: which is a kind of livestream video that also turns 81 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: into a podcast. It was three minutes on three topics 82 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: each that I'm seeing a lot of conversation about UM, 83 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: and then kind of behind the scenes, I'm also consulting 84 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: and helping companies figure out what their narratives are in 85 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: the context of the market and producing content around that. 86 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: So it's a lot of sucking in a huge amount 87 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: of information, trying to make sense of it all, and 88 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: then spinning it back out in a lot of different ways. Yeah. Cool, 89 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it's been been really helpful for sure 90 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, including myself. So it's interesting 91 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: how you you had kind of the social impact piece 92 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: before going to Silicon Valley and and Silicon Valley I 93 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: guess brought you into bitcoin, but it was it was 94 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: a job, and like you said, you went from the 95 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: payment the payment space to then seeing the actual change 96 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: that bitcoin um can can do. I think that's part 97 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: of going down the rabbit hole. I think, right, we 98 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: all kind of find that a different way, but you 99 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: had that background. That's really cool. Um, do you think 100 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: that's normal for most people like to kind of come 101 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: in for the money aspect, which is kind of more 102 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: like the surface, shallow surface area that then they kind 103 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: of get sucked into seeing the overall change. I think 104 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: you have. I think a lot of it was based 105 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: on how you find out, who you find out from, 106 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, what your own context is. But I do 107 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: think and I think there's actually a relevant point that, um, 108 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 1: you know, for for as much as we can kind 109 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: of like rip on the crypto industry for you know, 110 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: just the massive almost like casino style games of some 111 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: of these you know, uh coin offerings in seventeen early 112 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: and all these things. There are a lot of people 113 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: who found their way in exactly to your point, through 114 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: like being excited about the market opportunity, being excited about 115 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: kind of a generational uh, you know, financial opportunity, and 116 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: who found that there was much more to it than that, 117 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: and in fact, maybe what made it such a generational 118 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: financial opportunity was actually broader than just you know, what 119 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: the asset was going to be valued on day to day. 120 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: So I do think that there's a closer, there's a 121 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: more there's more value to people coming in because they 122 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: want the money than in a lot of spaces, you know. Uh. 123 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: And I think that there's a lot of a there's 124 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: a conversion process that to a lot of people where 125 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: whatever they thought it was coming in, even if they 126 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: were just excited about the money, they found a lot 127 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: more even if they stay excited about the money, right, Yeah, 128 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: for sure, I uh, you know, I say that the 129 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: reason why bitcoin is hard for most people to understand 130 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: is because you know, there's so much maybe six seven 131 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: different disciplines that you have to get and which is 132 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: why there's kind of that rabbit hole you kind of 133 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: learned about each one. But I love the fact that 134 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, I think five six, seven years ago, people 135 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: weren't really interested in money, people weren't interested in economics. 136 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 1: Nobody used the word feat, nobody would throw around the 137 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: words Austrian economics, right, and so now today it's creating 138 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: all this awareness and like you said, it sucks people 139 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: in on the money. Um, it's kind of the old 140 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: bait and switch put in a good way. Uh. So 141 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: I like that now. I mean you mentioned how you 142 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: mentioned how you saw you know, in Silicon Valley and 143 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: and it was kind of all about the payments. Um. 144 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: I think even recently we still here, we we were 145 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: hearing more about the payments. But that's kind of shifting. 146 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: And I know you talk a lot about like narrative 147 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: and narrative marking, So UM, tell me kind of where 148 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: you think that narrative started to switch, uh, and kind 149 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: of where it's at right now. So you have a 150 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: you have a couple of things. There's there's almost like 151 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: the silicon value question, which I actually think is interesting 152 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: because of its kind of role and prominence in the 153 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: tech world and the amount of money flowing through it. 154 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: But then there's also just the more general question of 155 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: when that payment's narrative shifted. Um, so maybe let's actually 156 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: talk about the payments narrative first. I mean, I think 157 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: it's been a for for I think there's a lot 158 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: of people out there who would argue that they were 159 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: always kind of telling the digital goal of the store 160 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: value story, the you know, even now the something that 161 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: we can get into, which is I think I think 162 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: we're shifting again from those things to something that's much 163 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: more of a kind of generational hedge against the fundamental 164 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: paradigm shift in the economic system, which is like a 165 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: superstore value, you know. But so I think there's a 166 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: lot of folks who that narrative has always been there 167 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: for some people. I think that, um, there was a 168 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: ton of money spent on on kind of marketing the 169 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: idea of it as a payment channel, uh, you know, 170 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: and and honestly like well intentioned right like Square was 171 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: accepting you know, Square merchants were making it. You're able 172 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: to uh to accept bitcoin that wasn't a wasn't because 173 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: they you know, didn't care about the other narrative or whatever. 174 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: Just it made sense of their business. They were excited 175 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: about the cooin. I think obviously now everyone kind of 176 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: knows how long Jack Dorsey has been thinking about it, 177 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,679 Speaker 1: watching it, understanding it. But when you have a major 178 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: company like that who is enabling that to be the 179 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: way that most people interact with it, that's what they're 180 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: going to hear about it. That's what we're gonna think 181 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: about it. And also coincides at the time of kind 182 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: of the rise of Venmo, the rise of other type 183 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: of mobile money solutions UM and the idea of just 184 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: being easier, like everything was being convenient, you know, or 185 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: becoming more convenient in in a totally different way. And 186 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: so it did kind of fit inside that, at least 187 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: very quickly. UM. I think over the last few years 188 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: that's obviously shifted. UM. I think it was really reinforced. 189 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that was interesting about 190 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: the I c O boom was that it allowed bitcoin 191 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,599 Speaker 1: to define itself oppositionally, or maybe a better way to 192 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: put it is for bitcoiners to define itself as different 193 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: in some way and I think that wasn't just about 194 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of a fair launch model or anything like that. 195 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: It was more about what the goals of the system were. 196 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: And you saw, like if you look at the beginning 197 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: of eighteen maybe even bridging back into the Silicon Valley 198 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: side of this question, you saw kind of the emergence 199 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: of a recognition that we were kind of having two 200 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: different conversations at once. There was the money crypto and 201 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: the tech crypto side, and um, you know, there there's 202 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: something to make the argument that they're incompatible or and 203 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: there's something who only care about one or the other. Um, 204 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: I think there's also a lot of people who can 205 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: see that they kind of they just have different ambitions 206 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: and different aims. And so if you kind of take 207 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley side, what the way that they're looking 208 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,959 Speaker 1: or I don't want to say, I don't want to 209 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: pay it with such a broad breast strokes, because obviously 210 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: there's a ton of people in Silicon Valley who are 211 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: passionate and kind of deep money decliners as well. But um, 212 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley is really interested in the paradigm shift from uh, 213 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: these companies which are supposed to disintermate the disinder mediate 214 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: the Internet and instead became the most powerful gatekeepers that 215 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: we've ever seen, right, Like Amazon is basically the most 216 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: powerful gatekeeper we've ever seen from a retail perspective around 217 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: the world. I mean, it makes the Walmart that encouraged antitrust, 218 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, kind of rumblings in the nineties and earlier 219 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: two thousands look ridiculous by comparison, um and uh, and 220 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: you kind of see that across other domains and disciplines 221 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: as well. I Mean, a lot of the conversation about 222 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: Facebook that's really unresolved as it relates to how big 223 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: and how powerful it is that we've never seen anything 224 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: that's that has this many users, this much data that 225 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: it has access to. We don't have any precedent for 226 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: how it's supposed to behave or what it's supposed to do. 227 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: And so Silicon Valley, I think is is really interested 228 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: in kind of the decentralized technology alternatives to those types 229 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: of things, because that's what Silicon Valley does is it 230 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: creates technolo aologies that respond to the problems of today's 231 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: systems and tries to do them in a different way 232 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: that's faster, better, cheaper, more efficient, whatever, so, but only 233 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: if they can pull a profit from it. Well, there's 234 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: a whole different conversation about what extense of looking value 235 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: has been interested in pulling a profit or or been 236 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: interested in a tenure game to let retail care about 237 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: whether it pulls a profit once it goes public. Yeah, 238 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: so that the maybe we can get into that. But 239 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: that's a whole different conversation. But I think that as 240 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: it relates to bitcoin during during this boom, as everything 241 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: was about tokenizing everything, tokenizing the world, decentralizing everything, Bitcoin 242 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: and bitcoiner has got to say really strongly and really firmly, like, 243 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: that's not what we're here for. We're here to change 244 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: the money system, and decentralization is actually for us about 245 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: censorship resistance. Uh, you know, the permissionless nature of this 246 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: asset um, the fact that it's not going to change 247 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's money supply, and it's it's monetary policies, 248 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: and then it's a it's a bulwark against kind of 249 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: the rampant money printing that we're seeing. And so I 250 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: feel like actually, in some ways, the breakout success, at 251 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: least in the short term, of this other category of 252 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: assets gave bitcoin a chance to really define itself as 253 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: something different. And I think that if you look at 254 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: what the story that was being told behind the scenes 255 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: as people were recruiting institutions and new people to come 256 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: in during the bear market. During they were talking about 257 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: about bitcoin and its role as a as a hedge, 258 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: not about tokenized assets. Yeah, so you know that. It's 259 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know, we're talking about narrative marketing 260 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: and so you had, like you said, uh, Square for example, 261 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: coming out and talking about bitcoin as a payment mechanisms. 262 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: We had companies that were promoting it hoping that people 263 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: would use it and then they would be able to 264 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: gain market share and make a profit or whatever they're doing. 265 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: We'll talk about making profit, but um bitcoin is a 266 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: decentralized company that nobody runs, and there's nobody there, and 267 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: there's nobody there to push a narrative, right, There's nobody 268 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: there to um say what it's supposed to be or 269 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: tell people about it. So really it seems like maybe 270 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: it comes down to the community, people like you or me, 271 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: who are putting out content to try and help push 272 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: that narrative. So do you think that's why there's kind 273 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: of that difference. Yeah, I mean bitcoin is a very 274 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: unique phenomenon in I mean in history from a lot 275 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: of different vectors. But I think that the one dimension 276 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: of that is that it's a company less force, right, 277 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: and that that we've never seen anything like that. Um, 278 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: there is no bitcoin marketing department, there is no bitcoin 279 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: pr department. What it has kind of it's kind of 280 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: like a it's kind of like a decentralized narrative, a 281 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: decentralized force right where I'm talking about bitcoin and what 282 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: it means to me, but you're talking about bitcoin of 283 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: what it means to you, yep. And And that's I 284 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: think why the narrative battles around bitcoin can be so 285 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: fever pitch is that there's no one who uh, there's 286 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: no one that comes back to that. There's there's individual 287 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: voices authority based on who happens to follow them, right, 288 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: But it really is the kind of like a large group, 289 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: and so it's a very messy kind of social consensus process. 290 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, this is kind of represented 291 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: in forks, but I think it's the My instinct is 292 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: that the longer that uh, you know, bitcoin itself continues 293 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: to get to to differentiate and kind of the further 294 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: the forks fall by the wayside in terms of where 295 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: they fit in the market, the more you'll see within 296 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: the big tent of bitcoin, even different interpretations of what 297 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: bitcoin are, what why it matters, what it means, You 298 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: will see, you know, you'll probably see battles over things 299 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: like rehypothecation and what are and aren't you know, financial 300 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: products that we're okay with on top of bitcoin, even 301 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: though again no one gets it aside, and that's kind 302 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: of the beauty of it. So you know, it's definitely 303 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: it's a particular type of narrative battleground around bitcoin. Um 304 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: and I think that that's you know, only going to 305 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: increase over time. So it seems like maybe in the 306 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: beginning we had the squares and whatnot talking about it 307 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: as a payment source and may and and the companies 308 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: that can build products around it to to make money are 309 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: going to going to invest money to push whatever narrative 310 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: they want. Um And now it looks like almost it's 311 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: the Wall Street taking over that narrative. Right We have 312 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: E Trade, TD, merrit Trade, Fidelity, on and on and 313 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: on New York Stock Exchange. Now they're all picking up 314 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: and so now uh, they're gonna probably try to push 315 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: that bitcoin is a financial instrument narrative. Yeah, well it's interesting. 316 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: So so they definitely are right. They want bitcoin to 317 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: be a financial instrument. They wanted to be, um you know, 318 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: set up in ways that they can uh sell, right, 319 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: and and they're the particular narratives around it, I think 320 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: will be a little bit based on what it is 321 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: they're trying to sell. Are they selling a custody solution 322 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: or they selling futures product, um, you know, all of 323 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: those things will shape the particular uh you know way 324 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: that they frame it. However, I think one of the 325 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: things that's really interesting is that there is a convergence 326 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: of a narrative from the bitcoin community alongside the kind 327 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: of Wall Street big financial institution narrative, which is this 328 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: idea of bitcoin as a non correlated asset, right as 329 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: a hedge against um, what's expected to be kind of 330 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: a rise of money printing, right uh and modern monetary 331 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: theory and all these sort of things. Um. There they 332 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: are now the kind of again painting with a broad brush. 333 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: Financial institutions are are kind of framing it in that 334 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: way to their clients, to their customers, and even if 335 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: it's just internally so far as how they think about it, 336 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: and um, that's really interesting to see and I think 337 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: very powerful. Uh that that's the way the narrative is 338 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: kind of shifting in terms of what bitcoin represents to 339 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: that larger financial world. Interesting. So you think the when 340 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: you talk about the bitcoin community, I mean we're really 341 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: just talking about the the developers and the people in 342 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: the space, you know, Twitter, the Bitcoin Maximus and whatnot. 343 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: So you're thinking that the maximalists are are continued to 344 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: push their narrative of really the store of value and 345 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: that it is again hedge against the money printing, and 346 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: you think Wall Street may pick that up and help 347 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: kind of run that run that marketing torch a little bit. 348 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: I think that they are picking that up. I think 349 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: there's there's two pieces of it that they're picking up. 350 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: So if you look so um Ral Paul, who started 351 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: Real Vision, uh he used to be kind of a 352 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: macro equities trader. Um has been on to two podcasts 353 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: this week discussing this. So one was Stefan Lavere is 354 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: obviously a bitcoin focused podcast, and they were talking about 355 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: kind of this, uh, this idea of a generational turning 356 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: in terms of um, in terms of where where we 357 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: are in the financial cycle and kind of the you know, 358 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: equities being at their their kind of highest price ever, 359 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: and what's likely to happen in the bond markets and 360 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: how you know, as things shift, as there's kind of 361 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: uh no more debt to be had, you know, things 362 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: are going to change, and all of a sudden, boomers 363 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: are going to find uh, their their you know, equities 364 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: worth so much less than than they were planning on. Right, 365 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: And then you have all these millennials who are looking 366 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: at you know, the most expensive equities ever, the most 367 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: expensive real estate ever. And why wouldn't you take a 368 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: kind of asymmetric bet on something like bitcoin and cryptocurrencies? Um? 369 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: So you have, on the one hand, just that it 370 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: as a pure, uh pure market play type, which is 371 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 1: is kind of the not necessarily the narrative that bitcoiners 372 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: are pushing. But it's something that gets to this other 373 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: point was why is this a generational hedge? Um? Why 374 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: is it such a non correlated asset? It's it comes 375 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: back to this idea of something that is digitally scarce, right, 376 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: and that is kind of uh, you know, knowably provably scarce, 377 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden when you start having that conversation, 378 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: it really paints itself in opposition to uh, two policies 379 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: that we see, you know, both both happening, but also 380 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: that are seemed to becoming more in vogue. And so 381 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 1: you kind of have this convergence of on the one hand, uh, 382 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: just a generation who's like, well, I can't buy these 383 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: things to to create and preserve wealth in the long 384 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: run because there's got they've got nowhere to go but 385 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: down Now. The other their hand, they're like, well, there's 386 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: this other thing that seems like it might be a 387 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: good bet or a good hedge, but why And it 388 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: comes back to again a lot of the core ideas 389 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: of um scarcity that that have people so excited. So 390 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: I think it's this really interesting thing that's happening where 391 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: it's not that just all of a sudden people are 392 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: all Austrians who really care about scarcity and sound money. 393 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: It's that in the context of what else is in 394 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: the market and these larger market forces, it's it's painting 395 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: itself in a much more appealing light, right Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely, 396 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: not everybody wants to paint themselves as Austrian or even 397 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: cares to know what that means. But I think, like 398 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: I think sound money might have skipped a generation or 399 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: two right where. I think if you went back in 400 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, I mean, people were still really 401 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: tuned into gold. Um, as the US got off of 402 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: gold and kind of went into the paper, maybe that 403 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: was lost a little bit and and uh, and there's 404 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: a couple of generations don't really care about it. And 405 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: now kind of like maybe you see an African continent 406 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: where they skipped landline phones and went straight to mobile phones. 407 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: Maybe this generation skipping the gold sound money going straight 408 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: to a bitcoin sound money, um and not really knowing why. 409 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: Maybe that's interesting. Now, Um, what about other narratives in 410 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: the marketplace? So obviously that's bitcoin, but now we have 411 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: crypto currency, right, so, um, what do you see about crypto? 412 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: About the crypto narrative? I mean, do you think it 413 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: seems to be kind of spinning off of the bitcoin 414 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: narrative and now it's all these other things big blockchain, 415 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: not bitcoin sort of. So I think that it's pretty 416 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: undeniable to me that even if you're really excited about 417 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: all of the different assets, um, the conversation that has 418 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: jumped mainstream is specifically about bitcoin. Uh, it really much 419 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: more than general crypto assets, with the exception of liber 420 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: and stable coins, which maybe we'll come back to in 421 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: a minute. Um, but that's there. You know, they've been 422 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: three hearings, two in the Senate, one in Congress over 423 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: the last two weeks, basically two and a half weeks, 424 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: and the word ethereum hasn't come up. No one's mentioned eos, 425 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, no one's gotten into the industry and um. 426 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: And I think that that doesn't That just reflects uh, 427 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: partially what they're hearing about it, and partially kind of 428 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: where again that this is. It's it's in the context 429 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: of this larger financial system questions and this growing concern 430 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: about what the future of the financial system looks like 431 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: and where money fits in and all these things, right, 432 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: And so basically they want to have the money, uh, 433 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: the money crypto conversation, not the technology crypto conversation. So 434 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that that's actually a knock on anything else. 435 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: It's more just shows the comparative maturity of the bitcoin 436 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: narrative and the demand and the interest from kind of 437 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: the larger mainstream financial and political world to understand how 438 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: it might fit now. I guess they don't care if 439 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: if supply chain management figures out a better way to 440 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: run their computer system on blockchain, right, that doesn't affect. 441 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: In fact, one of the things that happened at the 442 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: hearing this week with the the Senate Banking Committee, So 443 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: two weeks ago we had two hearings that were about 444 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: Libra specifically UM. This week we had a hearing that 445 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: was theoretically about cryptocurrency regulation writ large. Turns out it 446 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: was still about Libra UM and Libra is really the 447 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: thing that's got them uh concerned and paying attention, but 448 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: it was theoretically about kind of cryptocurrency regulation in general. 449 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: And one of the things that was actually interesting is 450 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: that there were some who, like some of the folks 451 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: who are more I guess you would say, maybe positively 452 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: inclined towards this. We're kind of trying to lead the 453 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: witnesses who are speaking to to the Senate Banking Committee 454 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: to to show what what other use cases for blockchain 455 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: their were outside of money, because they didn't want the 456 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: entire technology to be just assumed to be going after 457 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: to trying to recreate money in some ways, which is 458 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: more politically contentious than to your point, changing the way 459 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: that supply chains run. Um. So yeah, so again it's 460 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: there's there's this this kind of larger thing. And I 461 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: point out that because I think it has such a 462 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: it's going to shape a lot of our discourse within 463 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: the crypto industry about what matters and what we're paying 464 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: attention on. But I don't think it diminishes all the 465 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: other kind of narratives that are flowing through. Um. They're 466 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: just a little bit more still a battle for how 467 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: we who are in the industry are interested and uh 468 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: and what sort of bridges into the larger mainstream world 469 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: we're looking at. Right, So yeah, what's interesting about this 470 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: is again, right, there's so many different areas to focus on, 471 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 1: and one is kind of philosophy maybe if you will, 472 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: or or economics and money. They all kind of converge, 473 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: and it's like what is money, right if you really 474 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: want to dig into it, And so you talk about 475 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: all these other like cryptocurrencies and maybe they're like utility token, 476 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: so it's a token that I'm able to use on 477 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: that system, But that's all money, right, Like it's all 478 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: about value and how I store value, how I use value, 479 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: how I trade transfer value? And if I just you know, 480 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: airline reward points or talking reward points, that's all that's 481 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: all money, it's value um. And so they want to 482 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,959 Speaker 1: separate that from money and like blanket like cryptocurrencies, But 483 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: how can they stop somebody from creating value, creating a 484 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: coupon and allowing you to use that coupon on a 485 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: system that's a cryptocurrency. And so I kind of envisioned 486 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: this this world where money as we know it just 487 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: changes and they can contry to try to control the dollar, 488 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: but money becomes uh you know, decentralizing. Everyone creates it, transfers, 489 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: it uses it. So they can try to separate that narrative, 490 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: but at some point it seems like they it keeps 491 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: coming back together. Do you think, Yeah, sure, I think 492 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: I think that the point that you're making, which is 493 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: right on, is that you're seeing a little bit of 494 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: a separation at least kind of linguistically or conceptually of 495 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: value and money, right And a lot of what I 496 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: think the folks, uh you know, who are like maybe 497 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: in the ethereum community or thinking about things like non 498 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: fungible tokens and all these things is they're they're trying 499 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: to make value programmable. They're trying to make a value 500 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: primitive for applications where it's really easy to move this 501 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: little bucket of value over this this place and back again. 502 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: Um and to have that be kind of programmatically determined 503 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: or happen automatically if some set of conditions are met. 504 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: And you know, we're used to thinking about the only 505 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: way that we kind of denominate that is through money, right, 506 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: It's like, well, value is uh is represented uh in 507 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, dollars or cents or whatever it is. Um 508 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: And and really cryptocurrencies for a lot of these ecosystems 509 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: represent just a different kind of unit of account for 510 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: the value that's being distributed through these communities. UM. I 511 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: think the thing is that's That's one thing I think 512 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: that's good is that we're starting that I think is 513 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: a good separation is the aspiration of different programmable values 514 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: and what they are, what their implications are. UM. I 515 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: think you're starting to see a lot of experiments. Uh. 516 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: You know, the kind of air in some ways of 517 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: some of the like tokenized the world type things is 518 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: more specific micro communities that are having a go at 519 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: how value might move between users of their their products, 520 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: uh in in different ways. So you have you know 521 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: a lot of activity around games with non fungible tokens 522 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: where there's kind of true digital ownership, but theoretically true 523 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: digital ownership of assets. UM. You have uh, you know, 524 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: some communities like Scent that are trying to see if 525 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: they can create different value primitives that incentivized content creation, 526 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: content sharing, information sharing in different ways. UM. I think 527 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: those things have such a huge way to go to 528 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: uh to prove that there's um, well, one that the 529 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: architecture of the systems is right. The two that it's 530 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: like they have two challenges in some ways. One is 531 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, is is the it is kind of the 532 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: way that we allow users to exchange value enough of 533 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: a hook to get them here to actually spend time 534 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: in this community versus all their other options. And then 535 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: to what's the right unit account? Should it be ethereum, 536 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: should it be you know, our native token? Should it 537 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: just be bitcoin? Should it be USD Yeah? I think 538 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: but I think we I think we already kind of 539 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: have a working framework. So for example, I took my 540 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: kids to Dave and Busters, and I have to pay 541 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: money to play the games and I have to put 542 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: money in the machine and I get credits on a card, 543 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: but then we don't use all credits, and I leave 544 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: and like, I'm not going back to David Busters maybe ever. 545 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: And now I have all these credits on this card. 546 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: Those are to those could be tokens, and like why 547 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: couldn't I trade those tokens for your airline reward points? 548 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: Right totally? So we have like we're used to the 549 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: system where we gain reward points, we we we gain credits, 550 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: what token whatever? They could be tokens, but like why 551 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 1: does that value have to stay locked in that silo 552 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: and why couldn't it be transferred? And so all the sudden, 553 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: Dave and Busters decide, well, hey we're gonna make them 554 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: a token. Um, but now that's illegal. Uh sorry, it's 555 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: a cryptocurrency, it's money. It's illegal. But it's like it's 556 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah, well that's I actually think it 557 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: was a mistake to run away from the like souped 558 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: up airline miles narrative in some ways for these tokens 559 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: like it so that the reason that people rejected that 560 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: narrative that they tried to in some ways is that 561 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: it it may be diminished the total upside that people 562 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: were imagining as they were buying tokens and kind of 563 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: like pre launch of anything. However, I don't think it's 564 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: a bad thing to have, I mean exactly, to your point, 565 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: creating liquidity and secondary markets around an ecosystems currency is 566 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: a really nice economic value add type activity. And to 567 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: your point too, we're we are used to having to 568 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: convert whatever the dominant currency is into this little ecosystems 569 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: currency for the sake of our experience there, whether it's 570 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: David Busters or I mean, how Starbucks. I don't know 571 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: if it's still true, but a couple of years ago 572 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: there was more like Starbucks is basically the biggest mobile 573 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: money provider by a lot, over Apple, over PayPal, over Venmo. 574 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: You know, from from an actual like how much was 575 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: on American accounts um than than anyone else Starbucks card 576 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: Starbucks exactly, Like and it's that's just Starbucks has shown 577 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: that there's a market there. I it blows me away 578 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: that Amazon hasn't done this yet. The average Americans spent 579 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: something like seven a month on Amazon literally, Like it's 580 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: crazy how high it is. Maybe that's the average prime member. 581 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, I don't, don't call me on that, 582 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: but it's an it's an enormous amount of money, right, 583 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: Like why not just leave if you're if you had 584 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: a ten percent discount on Amazon Bucks and you knew 585 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: on average, Amazon just showed you what the average you 586 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: spent was, you know, in any given month, and they 587 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: made it desperately easy to just convert it at any time, 588 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: Like I feel like people would leave it there. So 589 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: all of these things, I think, to your point, are 590 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: there there. They feel almost like totally inevitable, you know, 591 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: with the exception of if there's if there's a regulatory 592 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: barrier put up that that that eliminates them. But they're 593 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: not the same. They're not what bitcoin is trying to do. 594 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: And that's fine, you know they're they're not what bitcoin 595 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: is trying to do, but they kind of they I 596 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: think they all work together. So I believe in a 597 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: in bitcoin becoming a store of value, becoming an exchange, 598 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: moving on to becoming a unit of account um. And 599 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: I think you asked kind of earlier like what are 600 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: they all pegg too? And I think we have to. 601 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: I think I think I think in a hundred years, 602 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: history books will be written about this period that we're 603 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: living in right now and it will be this transitional period, 604 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: and people go, what the heck were they thinking? Like 605 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: they had this free floating value. There was no peg, right, 606 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: there was no unit of measurement, standard unit of measurement. 607 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: So uh, like, you know, we have an inch, we 608 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: have a degree of fahrenheit, right, we have a meter 609 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: a weight, but we don't have a standard unit of 610 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: measure for value. And I think we'll have to get 611 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: back to that, and I think bitcoin sits there eventually. Yeah, 612 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's that that is the central the 613 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: set of folks who are in Congress in the Senate 614 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: who have played out the endgame scenario of these things. 615 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: That's their fears that that's becomes bitcoin instead of the 616 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: US dollar, although actually they're much more scared that it's 617 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: libra um, that that it becomes libra not the U. 618 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: S dollar. Um. It's been interesting to watch just how 619 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: much the size and scope of the power, the size 620 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: and scope of the audience that Facebook has is the difference. 621 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: Like it was really fascinating to watch a couple of 622 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: weeks ago when uh so even before when I'm uh 623 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: fed shared er on Powell was testifying, not about Libra 624 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: or anything specifically, but he was asked about it. He 625 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: was asked about bitcoin, and he said, you know, did 626 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: someone asked him? I think it was Brad Sherman, who's 627 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: the Farnia congressman who has been kind of the most 628 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: antagonistic Um. Yeah, he uh, I think he was the 629 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: one who asked Chairman Powell, you know, could you see 630 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: a world in which bitcoin replaced the US dollar? What 631 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: would that mean? And he basically said, you can conceive 632 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: of theoretically scenarios in which uh, there are multi you know, 633 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: multiple currencies, and we've seen that before. However, you know, 634 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: in his estimation, that's not really how people were thinking 635 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: about it. They were thinking about it more as a 636 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: digital store values of digital gold, um and uh. And 637 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: and interestingly, it seems to have been the case that 638 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: those folks really picked up on that and they kind 639 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: of went within They're like, okay, at least from now, 640 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: and this could change in a minute. Like the thing 641 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: that we have to be worried about with bitcoin isn't 642 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: that it replaces our financial system. It's it's easy as 643 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: it relates to terrorism and and uh, you know, money 644 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: laundering and things like that. But with this Libra thing, Uh, 645 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: Libra is a different story because you know, there's no 646 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: founder even of of bitcoin, there's no there's no committee 647 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: that looks like a central reserve. Libra is a different story. 648 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: Libra has uh an antagonist, It has an arch villain 649 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: that we already know that we already don't like that 650 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: we already do on trust and and it also has 651 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: two billion people. It has a built in biggest country 652 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: in the world, you know, by a lot of people. Um, 653 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: that's much more scary. So you know, Libra is basically 654 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: trying to say that it's it's also not aspiring to 655 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: to be kind of a you know, a global reserve currency, 656 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: and people are like bs, like, you can't not when 657 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: you're so big. They've put themselves into a very difficult 658 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: situation because uh, he says uh. They say, well, how 659 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: do we know you're not gonna still use information? Oh well, 660 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: we're decentralized, but how are you going to comply with 661 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: us laws? Oh well, we're gonna control all that, Like, 662 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: so we're controlled enough to you know, we we're we're 663 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: centralized enough to give you all the control you one, 664 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: but we're decentralized enough to you don't have to worry 665 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: about us, and like they're caught in between this two 666 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: the two uh, these two places that are difficult. But 667 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: I want to jump back into the narrative for a minute, 668 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: and let's talk about the government narrative. Right, So, as 669 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: you just mentioned, you said that really the narrative they're 670 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: pushing is this terrorism, drug dealing, illicit activities, um, and 671 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: so maybe it's a narrative warfare maybe almost right. So 672 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: bitcoin is like, hey, and Brad Sherman actually a year 673 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: ago kind of got this right where he's like, hey, 674 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: people see this as a way to undermine the US 675 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: dollar and take away the power. And so I guess 676 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: the two narratives are, yes, bitcoin is a way to 677 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: hedge against the US dollar. But the government is saying 678 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: we understand that Trump says that the US dollar stronger 679 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: has ever been talking out of the side of his mouth. 680 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: But the narrative they're pushing the warfare is terrorism drugs right, yeah, 681 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: I mean mean warfare is the substance of politics, right, 682 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: that is what uh politicians do. It's can you have 683 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: the catchiest way to to to tear something to reduce 684 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: something into a thing that you either want or you 685 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: don't want, right. I mean, Reagan's welfare queens was like 686 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful destructive political memes of all time. 687 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: And you can go through every like it's totally regardless 688 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: of administration and political party. Um, memes are I mean, 689 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: that's what That's what the whole thing is because digging 690 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: into substances so hard, nuances so hard, and memes are 691 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: kind of best when they reduce nuance. And uh, and 692 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: right now there's definitely a political battle. I mean in 693 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: some ways, Facebook is kind of almost providing this body 694 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: shield for the rest of the crypto industry in some ways, 695 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: you know, it could quickly turn and all of a sudden, 696 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: all the fire that's Levit did it gets Levit did everything, uh, 697 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: level that everything else. Um, So it's not necessarily a 698 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: good thing, but yeah, it's it's total meme warfare. And 699 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: you've got you've got the the there's kind of a 700 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: the antagonistic memes right now are um, you know, it's 701 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: it's criminal money. Uh. The antagonistic memes are it's trying 702 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: to dethrone the U. S. Dollar that they haven't figured 703 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: out a way to say that that sounds credible and 704 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: that well, they also can't they can't even tell each 705 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: other that. Like you can see, like Brad Sherman's there, 706 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: a couple others are there. It's almost inconceivable too. I 707 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: think most of these elected officials that there could be 708 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: a world in which a thing created by an anonymous founder, 709 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: run by a network of volunteers, you know, that doesn't 710 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: have any formal company structure could actually provide a global threat. 711 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: You know, they just don't buy it. That's why that's 712 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: why they kind of threat to the US dollar meme 713 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: has shifted over to Facebook and too, liber so aggressively 714 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: because they can maybe imagine that more. They can imagine that, 715 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, if if if there's a run on currency, 716 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, in this basket of currencies, that it sucks 717 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: dollars you know, out of the US dollar system. So um, yeah, 718 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating. So like how we fight back. The 719 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: community fights back against those two memes. So for example, 720 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: the narrative they're pushing, the meme they're pushing is that 721 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: it's it's finances terrorism or it's for drugs drug dealers, right, 722 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: And it's like, well, I think as you start to 723 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: find out about free money, maybe you start leaning more 724 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: towards uh libertarian type views and maybe you go, well, 725 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: why does anybody tell me what I can and can't 726 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: put it in my body? Why are drugs even illegal? 727 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,439 Speaker 1: Why don't we just end the violence overnight, make them legal, 728 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: spend a fraction of the money in in education and 729 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: training and rehab, and call it a day, right, Like 730 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: this war on drugs doesn't work a trillion dollars down 731 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: the tubes, and so maybe that narrative just bees destroyed overnight, 732 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: like who care? Why are why are drugs? Wire drug 733 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: dealers even a problem? And then the next narrative terrorism 734 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,839 Speaker 1: will terrorism? I mean, who's the US supplies terrorism? US 735 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: supplies the weapons, the US shift pallets of money in 736 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: the middle of the night to I ran, US bombs 737 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: every day. That causes people to want to come bomb US, 738 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: and they could just in terrorism if they wanted. So 739 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: the two narratives are pushing are really caused by the US, 740 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: not the people, and those should just those shouldn't even 741 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 1: be conversations. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I think those that's 742 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: kind of a non a nuanced, non nuanced type of 743 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: meme that like I would love, man, if we could 744 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: go to those conversations and have those I would I 745 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: would happily put like my little bitcoin hat on the 746 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: shelf just for a second so we could have those conversations. 747 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: But that's the that's the battle line almost right, that's 748 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: the that's the US fighting back. The bitcoiners are saying, hey, 749 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: we need to sound money, but the US is saying, 750 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: will it's drugs and terrorism. So like that's kind of 751 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: the battle line. I think that there's there's a I mean, 752 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: it can be if you choose to fight that. I 753 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: think that when it comes to those two particular issues, 754 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: they're good answers. Uh, they're good answers within the existing 755 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: UM political framework, right, Like even if those are you know, 756 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: we would aspire to have those things changed, which I'm 757 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: I'm all for UM. You still have you know, one, 758 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: people don't really understand that bitcoin is anonymous but not private, right, 759 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 1: so you have that at least until you know, coin 760 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: joints and things become totally normalized, we have a window 761 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 1: at least where people, once they learned, they're like, oh, 762 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: actually that this is you know, law enforcement who sophisticated 763 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily act to view this as a as a 764 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: total negative. There's you know, it's more trackable in some 765 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: ways than cashed um too. You have uh, you know, 766 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: crypto companies are and bitcoin companies are already regulated, right 767 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: you have k y C and a m L and 768 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: all the exchanges who choose to participate in in the US. Like, 769 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: so it's interesting right there. I think that they're one 770 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: of the narratives right now. Are One of the things 771 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: that I'm watching is kind of the d Americanization of crypto. 772 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: Is companies like Circle move their operations from you know, 773 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: Boston to Bermuda um and Finance, you know, pulls out 774 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: or kind of blocks people. Geo blocks users starting in 775 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: September to give a much more kind of newtered version um. 776 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: The interesting thing is, yeah, the interesting thing is that, 777 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: uh a lot of those exchanges, at least the ones 778 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: that are based in the US, kind of made of lee. 779 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: Their issue isn't compliance with m L and k y C. 780 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: They just kind of know that that's the law of 781 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: the land and you're not getting around that. Maybe there 782 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: was a period where could do that, but if you 783 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: want to do that, you're going somewhere else or you're 784 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: doing a decentralized exchange or something you're looking at a 785 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: fundamentally different model. The reason that circle pulled out of 786 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: of you know, of the US, or at least mostly 787 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: had more to do with the fact that they don't 788 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: know if the I R S, the c f TC 789 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: or you know, UH, the SEC is going to come 790 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: after them on the basis of what a crypto acid 791 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: is because it's not determined, right, you have different definitions 792 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 1: by every different group. So I think that the terrorists 793 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: and money financing narrative is it's almost lazy on the 794 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: part of governments. It's the easiest to kind of get 795 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: rid of UM. I will say that I think that 796 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: that just being like but also maybe the most powerful 797 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 1: because it's fear. It's fearmongering, right, so people are wanting 798 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: to give up freedom for safety. Yeah, I think I 799 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: just maybe this is being overly optimistic, But I just 800 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: don't think that that's I don't think that's the really 801 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: the thing that they can hang their hat on. I mean, 802 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: maybe like the thing that's the most scary about it. 803 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: And UH is the the extent to which UM, the 804 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: extent to which elected officials are willing to talk about 805 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: UH talk about the possibility of things like major terrorist attacks, 806 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: UM in in the context of giving them permission to 807 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: do things like band bitcoin or do things like uh 808 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: like force encryption. So it's a little bit different, but 809 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting and something I'm paying attention to. 810 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,919 Speaker 1: So Attorney General William Barr has been talking a lot 811 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: recently about backdoor encryption basically and forcing applications like what's 812 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: app to have you know, law enforcement backdoors um instead 813 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: of you know that basically destroys end to end encryption 814 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: and uh. And he gave a whole speech about it. 815 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 1: I think it was last week maybe at n y U. 816 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: The whole thing is like thirty minutes on just this 817 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: topic and he basically the way that he concluded was 818 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: and by the way, you know, we can have this 819 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: conversation now, but as soon as uh, as soon as 820 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: there's a terrorist attack that was land on WhatsApp, like 821 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna just do this anyways, and that's going to 822 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: be our justification. You didn't say it in quite that 823 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: brazen terms, but basically, so you know it is uh 824 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: that's the part that scares me. Could also be done 825 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,439 Speaker 1: word of mouth, and maybe we could ban that too, Yeah, Bannon, Yeah, 826 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: it's been in communication channels hard. I mean, but this 827 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,720 Speaker 1: is gonna be this balance between security and privacy is 828 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: is the I think the biggest, most important kind of 829 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: like mega trend of the next I mean, it's gonna 830 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: society is going to be shaped by the push and 831 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 1: pull between these forces, you know, over the next five 832 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: or ten years, for the next fifty years. But it's uh, 833 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's been going on for hundreds 834 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 1: of years, right, So I think the quote is maybe 835 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: not known in the origin. Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson 836 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: said that those willing to give up freedom for safety 837 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: deserve neither. So like it's been a couple hundred years 838 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: that people have been willing to trade off their freedom 839 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: or their liberty for safety. Uh. Well, this is why, 840 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: I mean, the the framers of the Constitution, the Bill 841 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: of Rights, knew that this was a challenge. They knew 842 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: that the first thing to go in situations of tyranny 843 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: was basically, your rights go out the window for under 844 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: the idea of protection. That's why they enenthrined so many 845 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: of these rights, uh, you know, in in in the 846 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: in the Bill and the Constitution, so I think, um, yeah, 847 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: it's it's not new. What's new is obviously it's you know, 848 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: the the changes in technology are so different and create 849 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: such a different type of surveillance opportunity that it's kind 850 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 1: of a it's not just a shift in magnitude, it's 851 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: a shifting kind of where the where the conversation is now. Yeah. Yeah, 852 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: in cryptocurrency or cryptography is our weapon to fight back 853 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: against that tea, hopefully if it doesn't get taken out. 854 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: Oh man, so much good, so much good stuff. We 855 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: could keep going on and on and on, but I 856 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 1: know we're already past our time, so uh, we'll have 857 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: to wrap it up at that point and maybe somewhere 858 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: down the down the road we'll get back on again. 859 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: But thanks so much for taking the time. Um. I 860 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: guess uh. I normally ask where people can follow you. 861 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: They should definitely be following you on Twitter. Uh what 862 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: should people be looking at if they want to keep 863 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: up with you? Yeah, that's Twitter is the best place 864 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: at n LW. It links out to everything that you 865 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 1: could want to find. Um. To reiterate, I guess I 866 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: do uh. A weekly newsletter that's kind of weekly newsletter 867 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: and direct to Twitter kind of newsletter long read Sunday 868 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,760 Speaker 1: that's kind of a curation of all the best essays 869 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: and threads I've seen. And then every day at three 870 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: pm I'll do a live stream of three topics three minutes, 871 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: just the conversation that I'm seeing that day. It turns 872 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,240 Speaker 1: into a podcast that gets distributed by email. But basically 873 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: if you go to Twitter at n LW you can 874 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: find all of this there. Yeah, good stuff. All right, 875 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: thanks so much for the conversation. We'll talk soon. Thanks Mark. Hey, 876 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: if you like this episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast, 877 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: please help us take this to the top of the 878 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: podcast charts. Just please do me a favor and rate, 879 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to just leave a 880 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: quick review goes a long way in helping us reach 881 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: more people and disrupt more markets. I really appreciate you listening, 882 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time on the Market Instructors Podcast. 883 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: M