1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: This is the me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: severely bug bitten, in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: can't predict anything, all right, I'm gonna go so far 4 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: as to say we've got a very special guest in 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: that he's arguably the most influential voice on public lands, 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: wildlife management, and natural resources management in the country. I'm 7 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: talking about US Congressman Rob Bishop from Utah, who chairs 8 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: the House Natural Resources Committee. Now, I usually go way 9 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: out of my way to not burden listeners with my 10 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: political views outside of those areas where politics sort of 11 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: intersect with the concerns of hunters and anglers and wildlife. 12 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Meaning I'm not going to go expound on my views 13 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: around capital punishment or legalized weed. But I have no 14 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: hesitation about giving my political input when it comes to 15 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: things like public lands, conservation funding, and attacks on science 16 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: based wildlife management. Over the life of the Mediator podcast, 17 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: I've definitely stacked the deck in my own favor, so 18 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: to speak, by giving voice to a load of guests 19 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: who share my basic stance on these issues in that 20 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: I support our federally managed public lands, I support robust 21 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: protections for game and fish, habitat and wilderness, and I 22 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: support state management of wildlife that allows for a sustainable 23 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: harvest of resources. And we've definitely taken some heat for that, 24 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: perhaps rightfully so by listeners who feel that I haven't 25 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: been entirely fair to other viewpoints. Well, we are taking 26 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: steps to fix that right now by sitting down for 27 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: a conversation the Chairman Bishop. We have differing views on 28 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the issues that will be discussing today, 29 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,679 Speaker 1: but I'm excited to hear from him, and I'm thankful 30 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: that he's willing to take the time to sit down 31 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: and talk through a handful of issues that we all 32 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: feel are very important for us and more importantly, for 33 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: future generations of Americans. One of the things I want 34 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: to start out with is to discuss the Land and 35 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: Water Conservation fund um and before doing that, I'd like 36 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: to open up to Chairman Bishop two, can you really 37 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: quickly lay out sort of the scope of the Natural 38 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: Resources Committee and what your primary goals are within the committee. Well, 39 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: one of the things that surprised me because when I 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: first got to Congress, I was concerned about public lands. 41 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: Utah is a public land state, but the scope of 42 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: what my committee does is so much broader than that. 43 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: It sometimes is almost it's daunting of what kinds of 44 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: things I cover with. So anything that deals with public lands, parks, forest, 45 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: all of those are in the scope of my committee. 46 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: Anything that deals with energy development that is on public lands, 47 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: or anything that's energy development offshore is all under my jurisdiction. 48 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Anything that deals with water development or water water maintenance, 49 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: not just in the West, but actually anything that will 50 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: be done by b O R actually becomes under my jurisdiction. 51 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: I have control of all the territories, which means, uh, 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, you know, all of a sudden, for someone 53 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: from northern Utah, Puerto Rico became extremely important to me. 54 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: So I get Puerto Rico and Virgin Islands and Guam 55 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: and Marianna's and American Samoa. Those are now part of 56 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: my portfolio, which I'm grateful, especially in the winter because 57 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: I think that's when I should be visiting those places 58 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: or on the others. And and anything native of American 59 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: that's in that's in our portfolio. So it's a wide area. 60 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: Anything that deals with fishing anywhere, commercial or recreational, it's 61 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: my portfolio. So how long have you served in the 62 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: House of Representatives far too long. Uh, this is my 63 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: eighth term, right, yeah, so it will be sixteen years 64 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: next January. And in doing that, how long did you 65 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: serve before you became involved in the Natural Resources Committee? 66 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: And how long how do you get to where you 67 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: achieve chairmanship of the committee on the House in Congress, 68 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: because it actually goes back earlier than that. I I 69 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: served here in Utah and the state legislature, and I 70 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: was there for sixteen years. Also, you came out of 71 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: education originally, right. I've always been a teacher, history teacher, 72 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: and in in Utah it's, uh, it's like forty five 73 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: calendar day, so it's a part time legislature. So I 74 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: was teaching all the way. I was going through that, 75 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: and as a teacher, I was not necessarily as involved 76 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: in that. But at the end, especially when I was 77 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: Speaker of the House here, I had a couple of 78 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: members who came up to me that that got me 79 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: involved in land issues where I thought, yeah, I mean, 80 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: some of these people are being screwed over and it's 81 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: not right. All of a sudden became deeply involved. So 82 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: the my speakership, we established the Western States Coalition to 83 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: Treme bring other Western states in to try and get 84 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: part of the discussion on how the federal government deals 85 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: with land issues um and that spurred my involvement in it. 86 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: So when I went to Congress, I wanted to be 87 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: on resources from the very get go. Because the Utah 88 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: se Utah's controlled by the federal government. You gotta be 89 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: on the public lands on the Resource Committee. That becomes essential. 90 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: And except for the one term I was on the 91 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: Rules Committee and they did not let me do both, 92 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: I was I've always been on the Resource Committee. Now, 93 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: unlike the Senate, where chairmanships come up totally by seniority, 94 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: they have limits on the Republicans in the Senate limit 95 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: their chairman's of six years, but it's the next senior member. 96 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: The seniority plays a role, but it's not the only 97 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: role that's been played in it. So when I went 98 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: back into the Resources Committee to get a sub committee chairmanship, 99 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: they jumped me over a couple of people, and I 100 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: also jumped over a couple of people to become chairman 101 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: of the committee. Is that because of having an expertise 102 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: or just because having a vested interest based on where 103 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: you're coming from. I thought because I was so lovable. 104 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: I think it was. It was the expertise. I had 105 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: almost been like groomed by the chairman before me. I 106 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: did a lot of things in his in his place. 107 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: So I had served for what was it like six 108 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: terms on the committee before I became chairman. Um. I'd 109 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: served in a lot of different subcommittees. I knew the issues, 110 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: probably as well as anyone who was on there, and 111 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: and I had what leadership at the time thought was 112 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: the temperament to be the chairman of that committee. If 113 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: you're good with that, are you ready to dive into 114 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: land and water Conservation fund? I'd love to, OK, So 115 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: what I want to do I want to have I 116 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: want to give people a background on what it is, 117 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: and then you get but then you get to you 118 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: get to add color to that. If you feel like 119 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm missing something important here, no, I'm glad you're doing that, 120 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: because most people have no clue of what land even 121 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: those that are involved in it don't know what landing 122 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: Water Conservation Fund actually is. Yeah. So the Landing cut 123 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: Water Conservation Fund is a fund that draws its revenues 124 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: from offshore oil and gas leases. Off Shore is defined 125 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: like it's like a very specific mileage from shores, right 126 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: mm hm fifty or two nine miles nine Okay, I'm sorry. 127 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: States get to control nine miles out. Everything else is federal. 128 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: It's in majistic so like the Gulf of Mexico has 129 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: a lot of offshore a lot of offshore land. So 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: this fund provides matching grants to state and tribal governments 131 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: for the acquisition and development of public parks and other 132 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: outdoor recreation sites. Um I was surprised to hear when 133 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: I first started looking into this that every county in 134 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: the country has had a project funded under the Land 135 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: of Water Conservation Fund, things like boat launches, public access sites, 136 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: and access for anglers and river users, and also oftentimes 137 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: purchasing easements to give public access to what would otherwise 138 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: be landlocked public lands. Now the thing used to be 139 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: funded for a long time, like I used to have 140 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: like it had like a ten year twenty year funding cycles, 141 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: but recent it's fallen into kind of stop gap measures 142 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: and it is now set to the programs now set 143 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: to expire at the end of September two thousand eighteen. 144 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: And I know that like if you if you follow 145 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: sort of the politics of hunting and fishing. You hear 146 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: a lot of noise about how we need to get 147 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: in there and renew the renew the fund, but there's 148 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: snags in the in the process, and it's not done 149 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: to everyone's satisfaction. Can you kind of explain a little 150 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: bit about out what sort of shortfalls you recognize in 151 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: the Land of Water Conservation Fund. That might kind of 152 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: explain how something that seems so straightforward and just great 153 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: for everyone, how something like that does become problematic or 154 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: controversial or have limited support. Yeah. Um, And it goes 155 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: back to when this was originally developed, so that the 156 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: plan came back in in the mid sixties. The idea 157 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: was as you said, to allow well, actually it was 158 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: Land of Water Conservation Fund was divided into two sections, 159 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: so in that time was supposed to go to local projects, 160 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: which is what you just said. So recreation areas, parks, 161 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: access and easements. We're all supposed to be funded by 162 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: the six of the money that was appropriated, and that 163 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: would be determined by local interests. So people at the 164 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: local level would decide what kind of recreation they want. 165 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: They would go after grants, and it could even be 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: used for like community swimming pools. Right, Yeah, whatever the 167 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: locals wanted was supposed to go to the state of 168 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: the federal government to buy in holdings in parks and 169 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 1: other areas, so things that were totally surrounded, there's they 170 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: could do that. It has morphed as that time went on, 171 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: so that instead of going to these funding programs that 172 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: most of the people who talked to me love and 173 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: like and support, that was down to as little as 174 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: twelve and ten percent. The rest of it went to 175 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: the federal government for buying in holdings, which I'm sorry, 176 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: over the years, the amount of money the federal government 177 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: has had, they could have bought every in holding like 178 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: four or five times if they really wanted to. So 179 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: instead that money that went to the federal side, that 180 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: has gone to basically buying up more land, and unfortunately 181 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: in not a nice way. So instead of the Department 182 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: of Interior or the Fourth Service sitting down and saying, okay, 183 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: what kinds of areas would be beneficial to us. In 184 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: the testimony our committee came came had we had former 185 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: employee is the Department of Material who came and simply 186 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: said what they do is sit around and say what 187 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: land is owned by a special interest group that we 188 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: want to reward by buying their stuff. So what has 189 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: happened on the federal side, not the state side, but 190 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: the federal side, is that groups will go out there 191 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: and they'll buy property from private owner, they'll sit on 192 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: it for a short period of time, and then sell 193 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: it a nice profits of the federal government using land 194 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: and water conservation funds and it has become a funding 195 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: mechanism for special interest groups to keep up their lobbying 196 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: and their litigation efforts. So to me, the Land and 197 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: Water Conservation Fund has has morphed into something it was 198 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: never supposed to be and never intended. And that's why 199 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: I was literally surprised at the feedback that came when 200 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: I said, maybe we should take that money and do 201 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: something useful with it actually helps people out. There are 202 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: a lot of groups that just came and glued and 203 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: started spreading out what I think is misinformation because I 204 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: was attacking their funding source and I don't think federal 205 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: government should be a revenue source for special interest groups. 206 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what has become. So what what we 207 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: were trying to do, and normally programs are authorized for 208 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: seven years that's what I'm supposed to do with seven years. 209 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: The last reauthorization was done for three years, primarily so 210 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: I could be around when it's going to be reauthorized again. 211 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: But what we try to do is say, okay, let's 212 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: put some parameters in here. Let's divide the money back 213 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:32,239 Speaker 1: up again fifty fifty, so still goes for the funding projects, 214 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: not the twelve eight percent last couple of years, and 215 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: go to the federal governments for getting in holdings, but 216 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: some parameters on what those in holdings have to be, 217 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: like actually in holdings or an area that butts uh 218 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: federal land. Like I have a personal experience with this 219 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: with with some relatives I knew about a piece of property. 220 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: Please i'd I'd love to hear it. Yeah, who will 221 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: be nameless because you know, I want to go to 222 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: family re unions again. They had a piece of property 223 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: which was not terribly productive, very steep. They sold it 224 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: to one of the special interest groups will be nameless 225 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: for but can you give me a sense of like 226 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: what sort of special interest group? Well, like, like what 227 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: what an environmental group that that that practices conservation and protection. 228 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: They sat on it for a few months and and 229 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: like they sold it for six figures. It's a relative 230 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: and the first figure was not a one. They they 231 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: sold it and then they sat on it and then 232 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: gave it back to the UH. This was to forest 233 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: for service land for service to use London Water Conservation 234 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 1: Fund and made a nice, healthy profit for themselves by 235 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: doing it supposedly as mule deer habitat. The problem is 236 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: um there's no vegetation on the thing, and it was 237 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: surrounded on three sides by homes, so you know, the 238 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: community up there would have a fact. They did, like 239 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: they came to me and say, can we get this 240 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: piece of property for for a city cemetery so we 241 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: can finally use and make it useful. As it was 242 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: sold as mule deer habitat, it was totally useless. There 243 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: was no vegetation. Mule deer didn't go there. It was 244 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: just land that was controlled by the Fourth Service. Ultimately, 245 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: we finally did legislation, although it took how a long time, 246 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: like six years to finally get it through, just to 247 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: transfer this acreage back to the city so it could 248 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: be put into useful production. Now, that's that's the kind 249 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: of that's the invitation I had to finding out about 250 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: how Land and Water Conservation Fund works on the federal side, 251 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: but please realize on the state side, I'm off four it. 252 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: I think it's a great idea. It was originally authorized 253 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: to be up to nine hundred million dollars can be 254 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: spent on that. It has never been funded more than 255 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: four fifty million dollars. Usually it's around three hundred million dollars. 256 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: And put that in some kind of perspective, Um, like 257 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: the Robertson Pittman Fund Pittman Robertson Fund that generates a 258 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year from Sportsman's Land and Water Conservation 259 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: Fund is three million, and if we are justifiably as 260 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: it was originally intended to be, half of that would 261 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: go to to recreation opportunities that were that were desired 262 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: by local people. So what I simply said, Okay, let's 263 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: keep the half. Um people can't use imminent domain on 264 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: these on these properties, which I think is fair. Keep 265 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: the half for them, and that includes the easements that 266 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: you talked about. Is probably the most popular element of 267 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: that I can imagine, because I mean, like yeah, I 268 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: mean I think the Eastman's are hugely important to people 269 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: who are coming from the perspective that I hear from 270 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: the most of people who are trying to who have 271 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: a goal to increase access opportunities on public lands. They're 272 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: extremely important for those who do want access. They're also 273 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: extremely important opportunities for especially those in rural rural areas. 274 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: They want to maintain agriculture while they're around, so they 275 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: grant the easements, they can maintain their property, but it's 276 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: still will be there for agricultural purposes, and they have, 277 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: but it's it's also some of those easement takes place 278 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: in urban areas to like on the Baltimore the highway 279 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: between Baltimore and Washington is actually owned by the Park 280 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: Service and they have easements on it, and they're part 281 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: of this LWCF funding for those easements. So with that 282 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: no domain. But then take the other half that goes 283 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: to federal government and say, let's make sure that we 284 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: can do something useful with that money. The federal side 285 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 1: of the money. The federal half, for example, we have 286 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: a seventeen billion dollar backlog in the Park Service. Let's 287 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: put some of that money into actually solving our our 288 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: park service. Fish and Wildlife and BLM also have double 289 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: digits in the millions of dollars in back billions dollars 290 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, in backlog in their areas. Put them money 291 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: in there. We do payment in lieu of tax is 292 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: to states so that they can actually provide services on 293 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: the county level where there is massive amount of federal 294 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: land that has always been We're doing better than when 295 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: I first came here, but that's around four million years. 296 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: Put some to boost up that. At the same time, 297 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: Let's take the federal side of the money and not 298 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 1: just spend it to reward special interest groups, but put 299 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: it on programs that actually help people. That's what I'm 300 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: trying to do. But but it would steer money away 301 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: from acquisition. Uh yeah, but I'm telling you that acquisition 302 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: I think has pretty well been steered away already. So 303 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: but I want to move on to other stuff. I 304 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: just want to make sure I understand something. When it 305 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: originally came out, was it not where the percentage is 306 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: not codified by law. It was just sort of loose understanding. 307 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: Originally it was sixty and then they how did it drift? 308 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: They removed its Congress later on about eight nine years 309 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: after that, simply removed it so that the understanding was 310 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: they would continue on with that six S forty split, 311 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: but they wanted to give some flexibility to both sides. 312 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: The flexibility was basically the stuff that actually gives and 313 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: I'm sorry the flexibility was actually moved over to the 314 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: federal side from the local. But also when you say 315 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: the local access, especially to some of your listeners, that 316 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: comes through the state side, the local funding, not through 317 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: the federal acquisition of the land, does not mean there's 318 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to be access for any kind of recreation 319 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: that takes place. It's simply acquisition acquisition of land. Um. 320 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: But if you really want to have have any process 321 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: that actually helps with the access for sportsman's that usually 322 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: comes to the state side funding of that program, which 323 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: I want to maintain. Actually, I want to maintain the 324 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: entire program if you could, if you could actually put 325 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: the boundaries that I want so that I know the 326 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: money is going to solve problem problem problems, I would 327 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: really like to go on lobby to make sure that 328 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: we could spend all nine million of it. In fact, 329 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: some of the things we said is the money, as 330 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: you said, comes from offshore energy development. That's the money 331 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: that keeps going in there. We have an aging workforce. 332 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: I mean, the workforce that works on offshore is really 333 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: becoming uh, they're all reaching retirement age. We don't do 334 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: anything to try and train people to go into those good, 335 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: high paying jobs. Most as as Americans are retiring on 336 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: those off shore projects, most of them are being replaced 337 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: by people from South American, a lot of Brazilians that 338 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: are coming up for them. So I said, why don't 339 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: you take some of that money and put it into 340 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: into colleges, get programs to try and train environmental and 341 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: um and uh petroleum not petroleum engineers. There's there's a name, 342 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: there's a word. Don't ever become my age. I'm sorry. 343 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: Names and nouns go first. And this is this is 344 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: the time it happened. Do some of that get make 345 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: the money useful. But you mean, so by that, are 346 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: you suggesting that by training oil profess artionals and engineers, geologists, whatever, 347 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: that you would be facilitating more extraction, which would be 348 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: allowing more money to feed in or just like just 349 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: kind of like finding a whole new purpose for the funds. No, 350 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: I mean no, the fund could actually if you're trying 351 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: to solve problems on the federal side, you could solve 352 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: more of those problems. But the idea is this is 353 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: kind of like the ghost is laying the golden egg, 354 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: So feed it, make sure it says vibrant so it 355 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: can actually put money into that. That's one of the 356 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: things that think he has emphasized as he's been Secretary 357 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: of Interior that there used to be a whole lot 358 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: of revenue that was coming in from from extraction industries 359 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: that funded programs within the Interior Department that over the 360 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: last ten years has dissipated to almost almost virtually nothing. 361 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: Put it back in there. Make sure that you can 362 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: do a whole lot of money with the royalties that 363 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: are coming off those programs. So it's it's the extraction 364 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: industry is going to exist regardless, it's just will Americans 365 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: be part of it. Will they actually have good paying 366 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: jobs out of it, or will they all go to 367 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: foreign workers coming in there? And can we actually boost 368 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: the long long activity so we can get more money 369 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: to actually do better things for people. It is a 370 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: funny thing that that I find, like when you when 371 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: you sort of sniff out your internal like self hypocrisies, 372 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: uh personally would be like if you do if you 373 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: look at you want to vibrant, well funded land and 374 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: water conservation fund because you like the things that it 375 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: delivers to and in my case, like the deliverers of 376 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: people that I think of as being like me, hunters 377 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 1: and anglers who use boat launches and exers. Sites like 378 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: that I want, right, But then I look and I'll 379 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: oftentimes have a little bit of a suspicion or a 380 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: leeriness about offshore oil operations, and you do find in 381 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: there there's there's a tension between those two ideas because 382 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: that's where that money comes from. Yeah, they've funded your 383 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: boat ramp, so why Yeah, you know, I recognize that 384 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: it wants up being a company, It wants up being 385 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: a world that's like a bit more complicated than you'd 386 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 1: like it to be, and and some of the things. 387 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: You know, it depends on where your listeners are living. 388 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: Especially out here in the West, there is so much land, 389 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: there's so much space that their idea that there has 390 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: to be a competition between preservation, access and development, preservation, 391 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: recreation and development. That's a phony concept. There is plenty 392 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: of area to do all three of those. There can 393 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: be development, there also can be a whole lot of 394 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: recreation and there can be conservation at the same time. 395 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: What what I would rather like to do is make 396 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: sure that we have a wiser way of how we're 397 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: defining where those lands are, so that people know where 398 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: they can so businesses know where they can actually develop, 399 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: and people know where they can recreate and what will 400 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: be set aside strictly for conservation and protection UM, which 401 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: which usually excludes people who want to recreate. When you 402 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: have those kinds of lands, there there's enough for all 403 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: of it. The same thing out in the ocean, there's 404 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: there's plenty of times for fishing rights as well as 405 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: the economic development that can take place. There's lots of 406 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: various That's a that's a good moment there to jump into. 407 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: The next subject I'd like to talk about with you, 408 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: and this one has been a real hotbed issue, is 409 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: to get into monuments. You probably take a talking about monuments, 410 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: or maybe maybe you love talking about monuments UM. Either way, 411 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask a bunch of questions about him. And 412 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: again I want to jump in and give a little background, 413 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: and you can color that background if you feel like 414 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: missing something. So when we talk about a monument designation, 415 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm not in educating Chairman Bishop about this. I'm educating 416 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: you the listener. We talk about a monument designation. This 417 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: goes back to the Antiquities Act, which was signed in 418 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: the law by President Theodore Roosevelt, and famously his first 419 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: monument designation was Devil's Tower, which had you know, tremendous 420 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: cultural archaeological significance. And there it was especially for Spielberg 421 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: especially yeah, because uh, close encounters, Close Encounters ends the 422 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: Devil's Tower. I've been there, um, did not see any spaceships, 423 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: but it is it is a beautiful site. And initially 424 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: the Antiquities Act was used for things like I mentioned earlier, battlefields, um, 425 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: places of archaeological significance, cultural significance, and over time people 426 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: started to rethink, reimagine um. People might use less flattering, 427 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: less flowery terms for this transition, but to think on 428 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: more landscape scale issues. And we had in in you know, 429 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: the last handful of administrations, we've had some big landscape 430 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: scale monument designations. And these are things that a president 431 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: can just declare through proclamation and create a monument, not 432 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: without action. Now, the reason it's became very newsworthy recently 433 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: is President Obama and towards the very end of his 434 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: term and gone in and done a couple of large 435 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: monument designations in Utah, including the Bearsier's National Monument. About 436 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: a year later, President Trump came in into a proclamation 437 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: that eliminated the majority of the Bearsier's National Monument, so 438 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: put it back to where it was before it had 439 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: become a monument, just sort of set back the clock 440 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: on the majority of that land, and also simultaneously cut 441 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument in about half. So 442 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: moving the land designations back to where they began. I 443 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: think that they want of being like a lot of 444 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: confusion where you heard people say that, um, your land 445 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: had been stolen or various things like that, but it 446 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: just land management decisions or landman designations were just set 447 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: back to where they had been earlier. The reason that 448 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: shook everybody up really bad is that doesn't happen. So 449 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: President Kennedy made like a minor change to Bandalier Monument 450 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: in New Mexico. But in the modern era, no president 451 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: had acted to go in and reduce a national monument 452 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: through executive action, even though people create monuments through executive action. 453 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,479 Speaker 1: Am I cool? So far from your perspective? Is this 454 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: Am I saying stuff that's making you cringe as I 455 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: say this? Well, yeah, but you're okay, go ahead, Oh okay, No, 456 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: I want to get into the parts just before we 457 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: get into the next part. I want to Yeah, I 458 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: want to hear like like, um, like I'm a history teacher. Okay, 459 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: so there's a there's an element of history that's attached 460 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: to it, like I know, I would love to I 461 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: would love to hear your perspective and this and if 462 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: I'm and if I'm trying to do the most like 463 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do the most even keeled walks through 464 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: of the monuments, you're doing very well at that, by 465 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: the way. Okay, um, because I'm gonna get to the question. 466 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna get to the question now and then 467 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: and and then you can go in and wait wait, 468 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: let's go back through the history first. So okay, it 469 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: did start nineteen o six, and it was that perfectly, 470 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: and it was to protect the reason it was called antiquities. 471 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: It was to protect antiquities, specifically Indian ruins and Indian sites. 472 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: So it had to be a specific thing and it 473 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: had to be a specific man made structure that was 474 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: supposedly there. So that's why a lot of people get 475 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: upset with landscapes, especially when you're doing it on water, 476 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: because I'm sorry, a fish is not an antiquity. So 477 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: if that's what you're trying to preserve, you're expanding what 478 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: the Antiquities Act was supposed to be. So the Antiquities 479 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: Act was put in there, and the debate on the 480 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: Antiquities Act was whether it would be basically a half 481 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: a square mile or a square mile, and then someone said, well, 482 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: maybe maybe you want to have more than actually six 483 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: forty I think is a square mile. Maybe you want 484 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: to get like the eight hundred and they said, okay, 485 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: eight hundred acres. So let's not put a specific language 486 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: in there, will say smallest footprint possible. But that which 487 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: is still a slippery term. Yes it is. That's the 488 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: problem because it still means it's still a legal requirement 489 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: has to be the smallest footprint possible. But acres is 490 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: a little bit different than the one point three million 491 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: acres of bears ears, just just slightly. But it also 492 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: had to be about something specific. That's why this idea 493 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: of landscapes was not in what the original presence did 494 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: Most presidents have done it, but they also did it 495 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: very very very discreetly. Most presidents have done a monument designation, 496 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: but but for the bulk of them, the average was 497 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: five thousand acres or less for every monument monument that 498 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: they did, so you did not get. And eleven of 499 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: them did reduce the size of monuments, so there is 500 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: precedent in doing that too. I think the last one 501 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: was not Kenny. I thought the last one was Eisenhower, 502 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: but I may be wrong on that. Who actually reduced 503 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: the size of Well, the bandalier was like an adjustment 504 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: of border. Did it well? And if it reduced it, 505 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: then there has been some reductions too, And and in fact, 506 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: technically that's what Prump did. He adjusted the boundary. Yeah, 507 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: so the issue was and and many presidents didn't do 508 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: it at all. So from Reagan and Bush one and 509 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: Ford nothing they never they didn't do anything, didn't designate 510 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: anything at all. The change came with basically for the 511 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: last five presidents, maybe four the last six. Jimmy Carter 512 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: was the first one, went up to Alaska, and I 513 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: saw him once to an interview where he said, I 514 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: know the people in Alaska didn't like what I was doing, 515 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: but I had the power to do it, so I 516 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: did it anyway. He used antiquities and took half the 517 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: state and then smiled about it in the way only 518 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: he can do. Yeah, I mean, but but he had 519 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: There was a lot of work done in Alaska at 520 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: that time. I mean, if you factor in like the 521 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 1: Native Claim settlement, I mean, there's a tremendous amount of 522 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: st happening there, but that a lot of the deferred 523 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: decisions that were being Yeah, but that was all done 524 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: legally by legislation. Ultimately, not what he did on the 525 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: Antiquities Act. Then Clinton did at big time didn't happen 526 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: again until Clinton. Clinton did it just in his reelect. 527 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: And that was the Grand Staircase Escalanti, which is the 528 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: first time you had a president who, in the internal 529 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: memos that they were sending back and forth, clearly realized 530 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: that they did not have tradition on their side in 531 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: what they were about to do, and they couldn't claim 532 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: that there really was an antiquity that needed to be preserved. 533 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: They also had to realize that they could not have 534 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: any input whatsoever by the law. Is if if Clinton 535 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,479 Speaker 1: had asked the Interior Department to give him recommendations about stuff. 536 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: It would have triggered NEPU, which would require open public 537 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: meetings and a very long process. So what it had 538 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: to be as a gotcha moment, the president had to 539 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,719 Speaker 1: announce something without any kind of input whatsoever. It had 540 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: to coming from him or you, or you trigger NIPA, 541 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: and the Antiquities Act is not allowed as as an 542 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: access point for them. And then Clinton did the first 543 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: win in Utah, and then he did about eighteen of 544 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: them somewhere in that area, just as he was in 545 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: his last two years of presidency. Bush only did a couple. 546 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: He did six total, but the one was was on 547 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: for water and that one was a whopper two that 548 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: was huge. And then Obama came in there and once 549 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: again in his last term, as he was going out 550 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: of the office, then he went he went bananas with them. 551 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: All he did twenty three or twenty two or twenty 552 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: three total monument designations, including Bears Ears, which we were 553 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: trying to do with some other process. So that's why 554 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: what has happened with Antiquities Act is it's not being 555 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: used as it was intended to be used. That's why 556 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: I always say it's an abuse of the Antiquities Act, 557 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: not a use of the Antiquities Act, because it's not 558 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: about a specific antiquity. It's not the smallest footprint possible, 559 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: and you can't claim that there is an impending damage 560 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: that was taking place. And that's the other reason why 561 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: they gave the power to Roosevelt. If there was something 562 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: that's about to be destroyed, let the president make a 563 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: quick declaration. And then the idea was always Congress would 564 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: go back then and codify it, which they make a 565 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: big deal about, like Zions, Grand Canyon. All those were 566 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: antiquities designations originally. Then Congress though, went back in there 567 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: and made them into parks and expanded all of them too. 568 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: That was how it was supposed to have been done. 569 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: It has not been done in either the Clinton lesser 570 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: to extent with George W and especially the Obama years. 571 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: So that's the history of it, and that's that kind 572 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: of is your unease with it is that it's sort 573 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: of drifted off purpose. But but it it also specifically 574 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: does not allow for any kind of public input. If 575 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: you do that, it triggers NIPA, So that has to 576 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: be a gotcha moment has to be something that surprises everyone. 577 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: And that's what most of the people in these areas 578 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: who live around those their complaining about, Like you, you 579 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: just did this to me and I didn't have a 580 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: chance to say anything about it. Now they often say, well, 581 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: we did have that process. But to be honest, if 582 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: it was a real process where you're talking about maps 583 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: and talking so salad, you can go down to the 584 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: Bearrisier's area and say I'm going to have a meeting, 585 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: come and tell me what you think about this entire 586 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: area very general. But if you had a map of 587 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: specifics and say is this where the line should be, 588 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: that triggers an NEPA process. You can't do that. That 589 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: has got to be a gotcha moment. There needs to 590 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: be reform of the ACT. I don't want to do 591 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: away with antiquities Act per se. I want to put 592 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: some sidebars on there. So once again, it insists that 593 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: there is some kind of of public input and it 594 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 1: allows the people who live in those areas to have 595 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: some kind of real say in how it is developed 596 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: and what is going to be developed in those areas. 597 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: And and there's also you know, one of these other 598 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: things I'm getting off topics. I haven't even allowed to 599 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: ask the question yet. I apologized for that. No, no, 600 00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: you're but you already you already entered it on the question. 601 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: But um, oftentimes these are said, as we're making these 602 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: monuments to protect these areas, it has to be federal 603 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: land in the first place. So in Bears Ears it 604 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: was all federal land. It had the same federal protections 605 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: on all these lands. When you made it a monument, 606 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: you didn't add any other protection except that you allowed 607 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: a land manager to go in there and make decisions 608 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: on how this area that's now protected would be used. Oftentimes, 609 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: and that's the problem we've had in other monuments that 610 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: were created. Oftentimes that protection is to deny access to people, 611 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: and so motive access, no any kind of access you 612 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 1: can and and what the proclamation says doesn't even have 613 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: to be obeyed to be honest with you, So when 614 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: Clinton had Grand Staircases said there would be no reduction 615 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: in grazing, there's a total reduction graze, reduction in grazing, 616 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: even though that's what the proclamation said. But how the 617 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: land managers then decide to impute that language is the problem. 618 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: And that's one of the problems I had that, especially 619 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: why when we were trying to deal with lands in 620 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: in eastern Utah as well as this area. I tried 621 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: to codify specifically what those access rights would be and 622 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: put them in there. That says, you know, if if 623 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: the if the land manager decides that something needs to 624 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: be closed, they have to provide an alternative opportunity in 625 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: something that is of equal value. So you can't take 626 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: away the access or opportunity rights. And that doesn't happen 627 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: any of these designations. If the land is just federal 628 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: BLM land, the default is always open access. Anyone go 629 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: in there, you can, you can recreate to your heart's content. 630 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: It's when you start designating titles to it, like monuments. 631 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: That's when you actually authorize the land manager to come 632 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: in there and put specific restrictions, and that happens. That's 633 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: the one thing I don't that's another I'm rambling. I 634 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: used to teach speech. I'll get a complete sentence out 635 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: here eventually. That's one thing I want to do in 636 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: my committee is actually codify all this stuff, so you 637 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: put into law what will be accessible and how it 638 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: will be accessible. So, for example, in Bear's Ears, the 639 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: natives Native Americans who abut that area are basically the 640 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: white maca Utes and the Novajos. They go in there 641 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: for um, for gathering a firewood. It's a ceremonial purpose, 642 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: as well as some of them sell it for just 643 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: substance substance purposes. They go in there by truck. That's 644 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,959 Speaker 1: what they want to do. The proclamation, Obama, you said 645 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: nothing about it, he said you. Actually, it didn't restrict anything. 646 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: It didn't say anything about it. But it allows the 647 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: land manager to go in there later on and say 648 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: I don't think you should have a truck going into 649 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: my monument, and he could then stop that process. So 650 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: we're trying to do in our legislation is saying now 651 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: these activities will always be legal, and they will be 652 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: allowed by the land manager, including going in there with 653 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: a truck to get the firewood going in there. Verb 654 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: you have to do that because if you don't spec 655 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: scifically state that access and opportunity rights, some land manager 656 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: eventually down there will say we'll make will make an 657 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: arbitrary decision that actually cuts off that kind of access. Okay, 658 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: that's that's what bothers me. All right, you brought up 659 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 1: a ton of things that I need to a little 660 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: bit back up because I want to hit on a 661 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: couple of points. We haven't yet drawn a distinction between 662 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: when you declare a monument who administers the monument, because 663 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: there's a lot of confusion I think where people feel 664 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: that the bears ears. In Grand Staircase monuments, there was 665 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: some sort of restriction on hunting, for instance, But generally 666 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: the monuments that are ministered by the BLM and monuments 667 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: administered or handed over to the Forest Service, they have 668 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: a multiple use doctrine and so part of that multiple 669 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: use is usually includes hunting. So we haven't seen a 670 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: loss there. I think that the nervousness that people have 671 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: is what could happen with nationally like monuments that administered 672 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: by National Park Service, where they have like a bigger 673 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: tool kit to restrict activities there. There are only two 674 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: National Park Service monuments that allow any kind of hunting activity, 675 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: and I think six six yeah have some kind of 676 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: snowble billing activity. But BLM traditionally is supposed to be 677 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: much more flexible. What I'm trying to say is there's 678 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: nothing that guarantees that and any land manager can change 679 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: and make arbitrary and capricious decisions. That does the restriction 680 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: unless you put in statue. And that's why I think 681 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: it should be done not by an antiquities designation, but 682 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,799 Speaker 1: letting Congress pass a law that says we are guaranteeing 683 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: in law these activities will be allowed. Yeah. I think 684 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: that it would make a lot of people feel more 685 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 1: comfortable to have those things put in place. And I 686 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: think one of the things that winds up killing people 687 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: is the uncertainty about what's going to come in the future, 688 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: and that sort of generates the rumor mill. And and 689 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of the weird part about this that 690 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: if it's not monument designated as a monument, the fallback 691 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: is you've got it open access. As soon as you 692 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: designated as a monument, then I'll of a sudden you 693 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: bring up the opportunity of putting restrictions on it. So 694 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,799 Speaker 1: the designation of itself does not necessarily add protection to 695 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: the land. It actually can put in restrictions on the land. 696 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 1: I want to revisit for a minute something uh that 697 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier, and I want you to kind of 698 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: reconcile it with what we're talking about now, is early 699 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and 700 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 1: you had said you were talking about like original intents 701 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: and how because needs change and situations change, you wanted 702 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: to kind of change that original attempt to match the future. 703 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: What would you say if someone brings up to you, 704 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 1: um that that the antiquities that could be something that 705 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: evolves in morphs over time to match up with our 706 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 1: needs today the same way that you would suggest the 707 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: Land and Water Conservation Fund, Like like, how do you 708 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: cord of balance out those two ideas which someone might 709 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: point out and think that it could be regardless like 710 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: mildly hypocritical. Now, the Land No Antiquities Act is words, 711 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,720 Speaker 1: and the words have meaning. If you want to change 712 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: the focus of the Antiquities Act to do what they're 713 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: doing right now, change the law, words have meaning and 714 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: words have impact. So I want if if I'm just 715 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: sitting here saying, Okay, that's what the word tells me 716 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: to do, but gee, I think I'd like to do 717 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,160 Speaker 1: something else, I'm sorry that that is not the way 718 00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: the rule of law happens, and that's not the way 719 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: you have civilized society works together. So if indeed you 720 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,760 Speaker 1: want to have the Antiquities Act doing landscape preservation. Change 721 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: the law to allow that to take place, and that 722 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: will that will then have people being able in public 723 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: to debate whether that's a good idea or not. How 724 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: far do you think that idea would get uh, depending 725 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: on actually Okay, personally, I hope that doesn't get to 726 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: that point because I don't think it was ever intended 727 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:08,839 Speaker 1: for land landscape preservation. And as I think I've also 728 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 1: said earlier, giving those designations doesn't mean you actually improve 729 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: the land like there is if indeed, President Obama was 730 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: saying he wants to have more protection for these artifacts, 731 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: his proclamation doesn't do that. You had one, You had 732 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: one BLM officer for a million miles when he had 733 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,240 Speaker 1: made his proclamation. There is still one for a million miles. 734 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: What we're trying to do in the law. But Curtis 735 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: introduced saying, Okay, we're gonna have BLM contract with local 736 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 1: officials to have a minimum of ten people there to 737 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: protect those areas. Now, that's what you should be doing, 738 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: and that's what a proclamation doesn't do. That's what the 739 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: Antiquities Act doesn't do. If you really want to do 740 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, change the law to allow that 741 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: to take place. If you also think, I also think 742 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: not everything is going to be defeated in Congress. I 743 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: know that's that's the viewpoint even I have right now. 744 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of these things that can 745 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: go through. Like um I am. I am, allegedly by 746 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: some of the things I have read about myself hating 747 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: of wilderness. I created wilderness in my first MAXO is 748 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: the third term, but I had a specific reason for 749 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: creating it. The first bill I let go through when 750 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,720 Speaker 1: I became chairman was a wilderness bill. And in Idaho, 751 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,280 Speaker 1: I'm not opposed to that. I just want the process 752 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: to be done correctly, and I wanted to make sense, 753 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 1: and I want there to be some kind of balance. 754 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: So if you were gonna impose let's say you for 755 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: a minute, you didn't have participate in government. You could 756 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: just do things by fiat if you wanted. If you 757 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: were going to come in and impose the sort of 758 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: discipline you'd like to see around the Antiquities Act, what 759 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 1: would it look like actually have a bill that we introduced. 760 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 1: It would be what I said, let the President designate 761 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: five thousand acres or less at will at whim, especially 762 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: if there's an emergency basis. But if it's going to 763 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: be bigger than five thousand acres, then you have to 764 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,720 Speaker 1: have an e I S. This is HR three. Have 765 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: have an environmental impact statement, you have to go through 766 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: the Kneeper process. And if it's going to be more 767 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: than eighty six thousand, and we picked that number specifically 768 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: because that's the average that Teddy Roosevelt did in all 769 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: of his stuff. You have to involve the local, local, state, 770 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 1: and local governments, so they have to be involved in 771 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: it to what extent they have to. They have to 772 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: prove it, they have to sign off on it. If 773 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: you're going to be bigger than that acres, then involve 774 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: local governments so they actually have a sign off on it. 775 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,240 Speaker 1: And I think that's fair and that's appropriate. In addition 776 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 1: to that, if you're going to shrink it down, we 777 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: went through the same kind of process in reverse. If 778 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: it's going to be a big shrink it, you've gotta 779 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: have local government sign off on it. If it's going 780 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 1: to be a small shrinkage, the president can do that 781 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: by simply designating so I their sideboards. At some point, 782 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 1: you can't just go in there and say I'm going 783 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,359 Speaker 1: to take that entire map and this big section. I'm 784 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: going to do it because I want to without at 785 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: least letting people have some kind of say in it 786 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: who lived there, affecting their lives and their and their futures. 787 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,320 Speaker 1: Do you feel that there was like some lesson learned 788 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: in what we've seen here kind of that you were 789 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: involved for a long time and before Obama came in 790 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: and did Bears Ears, you would have been involved for 791 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: a long time and trying to strike a compromise and 792 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: make it and perhaps have made him feel that it 793 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 1: wasn't necessary. When you look at like, you don't you 794 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: don't like no, I was like, what was the looking 795 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: at it now like looking at what happened now? Like, 796 00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: what do you feel went wrong? Was it a lack 797 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: of compromise on two sides? A lack of compromise on 798 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 1: one side? Like like what led to the current what 799 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,040 Speaker 1: led to the current problem or what led to the 800 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: hostilities around Bears Ears? From from a mile high perspective, UM, 801 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: I think we're talking to out a couple of different things. 802 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: So there was always a group that wanted to do Um, 803 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: I'm sorry Bears Ears. In my estimation was still a 804 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: political statement that was made, not necessarily conservation statement, and 805 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: in fact, calling it bears ears instead of giving it 806 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: a Native American name kind of emphasizes this was this 807 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: was something that's going to be cute and sellable. But 808 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: I've never I've never thought of the marketing implications. Well, 809 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: there are certain groups that got involved and put the 810 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: money up, and that's what they said, can we trust 811 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: working with the Indians? And I don't know, I don't 812 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: want to have a Navajo name in there. We change 813 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: or Trump changed it. In our legislation, we continued that 814 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 1: just sasta, which is the Navajo word for bears ears. 815 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: I like that a whole lot more. But what I 816 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: think you were referring to us, I was trying to 817 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: do what we call the public Lands Initiatives by going 818 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: into the seven eastern counties in Utah, getting everyone to 819 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: sit down the table and come up with some kind 820 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: of compromises. Both sides will point to the other one 821 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: is having broken that. And in part it was a 822 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: unique experience because these are groups that had never compromised before, 823 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 1: and so far they haven't still, but the tipping point 824 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,839 Speaker 1: and and and once again I did those three things 825 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to do. I want to say land can 826 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: be designated for economic development, for recreation, and for conservation. 827 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: And actually I thought I was really kind of cool 828 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 1: with the numbers I was coming up with. So for 829 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: every one acre of economic development and recreation, I put 830 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: four acres aside simply as wilderness conservation. I thought those 831 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,399 Speaker 1: were who could complain about those numbers. Obviously everybody did. 832 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: But the tipping point was when I said, Okay, if 833 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: we come up with this compromise, no more screwing around 834 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: with these lands in which antiquities has got to be 835 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,560 Speaker 1: off the table for these seven counties. If we make 836 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,000 Speaker 1: this deal, you can't go back in there. And then 837 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: you can't say, okay, thank you for the wilderness. Now 838 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: I'm going to go after the recreation and economic lands 839 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: and we'll make those world us too. So it has 840 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: to be we're done, We're finalized, no more discussion, no 841 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,760 Speaker 1: more litigation. You gotta agree to that. And that's where 842 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: the environmental groups that were on the at the table 843 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: basically said screw you and walked away. Now I was told, 844 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: and this is totally anecdotal, but one of the groups 845 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: were in varying degrees of cooperation, and that on both sides. 846 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,399 Speaker 1: Some of my counties were really great to cooperate, some 847 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: for a pain. It does the same thing on the 848 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 1: environmental NGOs that were there. Some of them were nice. 849 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,399 Speaker 1: I like them. Some of them. You know, I can 850 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 1: still turn around. You can get their their cutlery out 851 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: of my back if you want to. But one of 852 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: them came to me and said, Rob, I feel sorry 853 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: for you because you were sincere in what you were 854 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,319 Speaker 1: trying to do. But some of the groups on our 855 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,239 Speaker 1: side never intended to cooperate. They were there to watch us. 856 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,720 Speaker 1: Um and I I feel bitter about that entire process 857 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,720 Speaker 1: because we were trying to come up with the solution 858 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: that I thought would be fair and truly a compromise, 859 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: and everyone just said screw it. And then when when 860 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,960 Speaker 1: he did the Bearsier's proclamation, that was it. That was 861 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: like the final straw. We're not going go and go 862 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:14,320 Speaker 1: back into that route again. UM. I also feel frustrated 863 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: because there was language I was asking from Department of 864 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,319 Speaker 1: Interior and other the groups and they never gave it 865 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 1: to me. They kept saying we'll get it to you, 866 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: we'll get it to you. It never happened, and and 867 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,919 Speaker 1: then said, well, I never came up with the bill. 868 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,080 Speaker 1: I didn't actually push my bill forward while I was 869 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: waiting on you guys to give me the language you promised. 870 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:37,920 Speaker 1: I I feel somewhat disenchanted about that process too. Do 871 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: you have any concerns about the the legality of what 872 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: Trump did when he when he shrunk the monuments? But you, 873 00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: but you'd like to see it explaining greater detail or 874 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: codified in some other way that that settle some of 875 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 1: these disputes down in the future. If I'm condifying how 876 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: you do it, it seems only fair you codify how 877 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,400 Speaker 1: you undo it at the same time. And then once again, 878 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: let the people's representatives their voice. I'm told when I 879 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,319 Speaker 1: read the Constitution, let them actually make those kinds of 880 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,280 Speaker 1: decisions in open and in legislation. Do you have anything 881 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,920 Speaker 1: else you want to add on on the subject of 882 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,120 Speaker 1: monuments specifically, No, But I'm glad you went into that 883 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,239 Speaker 1: kind of detail, because there are a whole lot of 884 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 1: what I consider still to be misinformation. There are a 885 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: lot of groups that are out there trying to equate 886 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,960 Speaker 1: a monument with a park as if it's the same thing, 887 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: and you're right, it's not. It's totally not. And you also, 888 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,879 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to do this because most people don't don't 889 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,240 Speaker 1: differentiate between a Park Service monument and a BLM monument. 890 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 1: They are different, they are different creatures. So I think 891 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: everybody's gotten. I mean, I want to see everybody, people 892 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: who follow these issues have recently got recently gotten like 893 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,200 Speaker 1: a sort of a crash course where they wanted to 894 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: or not. I mean, in the last months, there's been 895 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people who have come to like struggle 896 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: with these definitions. That's that's true. And and you can 897 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: play around at least what is conservation, what is protection? 898 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 1: You can play around with that all the time. And 899 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 1: you're right. I get frustrated because, like I said, this 900 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,399 Speaker 1: goes back to me the Carter administration. At first, when 901 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 1: I was a state legislator here in Utah, we were 902 00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: talking about this stuff. Um, it's it's frustrating that we're 903 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: still talking about this stuff and having a lot of 904 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: misinformation about what it is, especially some of those phrases 905 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,359 Speaker 1: like you know, when when the when it came out 906 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,879 Speaker 1: there that Trump stole your land. Yeah, I'm sorry, give 907 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,560 Speaker 1: me a break, it was federal first, it's federal now. 908 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,360 Speaker 1: If anything, he gave you greater access opportunity by reclassifying 909 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,640 Speaker 1: it simply as federal land and not monument land. You know, 910 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:49,799 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. I was, Um. I was 911 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,719 Speaker 1: disappointed by the decision, but I was equally disappointed by 912 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: the way some people were explaining what was going on, 913 00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 1: even people who I might agree with their general motives. 914 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,319 Speaker 1: I thought that the the the stole your land was 915 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: a real reach and misleading, and it was kind of 916 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,680 Speaker 1: embarrassing to come from, um, you know, to to come 917 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,640 Speaker 1: from the side of an issue that I was sympathetic 918 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: two and I felt that it Uh, I don't know, 919 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 1: I feel like right now, but it is simple in 920 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 1: itsels Yeah, But in the in the in the plarity 921 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:29,439 Speaker 1: that we're seeing, I see oftentimes from both sides things 922 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: that embarrassed me about how inaccurate they are. So hopefully 923 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,879 Speaker 1: maybe we'll in our chat here clear up a couple 924 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: of these things for a couple of people. Dude, you're 925 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,640 Speaker 1: living in the life of you know, the land of Twitter. 926 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:48,839 Speaker 1: And I'm very proud that well, my committee tweets. I'm 927 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: still proud. I've been I've been outed by Hill mag 928 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,520 Speaker 1: Hill paper back there in the Yeah, as the only 929 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,920 Speaker 1: member that actually has a Twitter account who has never 930 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: tweeted a single character, and now they've outed me I'm 931 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: taking as a challenge. I'll be damned if I'm actually 932 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,880 Speaker 1: going to do when ever. Ever, so so people that 933 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,080 Speaker 1: follow you are they don't have an exciting morning when 934 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: they open it up now, And I don't think I 935 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,480 Speaker 1: can be snarky now. My staff thinks I can easily 936 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,200 Speaker 1: do that, but I'm going to have to use that 937 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: in some other traditional form. What what per sorry did? 938 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: But what percentage of your colleagues do you feel, like, say, 939 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: tweet on a daily basis? I don't know, but there's 940 00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,480 Speaker 1: a whole well first, whether they tweet or they have 941 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:36,200 Speaker 1: a staff or tweet for them. Actually, I have no 942 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,239 Speaker 1: clue I would. I would guess like two thirds. Okay, well, yeah, 943 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,760 Speaker 1: I was just you saying it's the age of you know, Twitter, 944 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: So I was wondering, you know how prevalent it is. 945 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 1: Look I when I was first elected blogs. No, that's 946 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,759 Speaker 1: making me sound really old. I'm not going to go there. 947 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,879 Speaker 1: But I've seen the evolution of social media coming through there, 948 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: and I still use legal pads so let me just 949 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,359 Speaker 1: leave it at that where you can generate big, long 950 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,959 Speaker 1: and complicated thoughts. Oh yeah, yeah, I have all sorts 951 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 1: of files of my writing. It's cool. I want to 952 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,840 Speaker 1: bump along too, and it monuments falls under public lands 953 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 1: of course, but I want to just jump jump into 954 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:20,160 Speaker 1: like kind of like general thoughts around public lands. Again. 955 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna lay a little bit out and and you 956 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:29,399 Speaker 1: can go on that. There are poles to suggests that 957 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:34,560 Speaker 1: sev seventy two of hunters in the American West, and 958 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,440 Speaker 1: that that area, like the Inner Mountain West, includes your 959 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: own constituents here in Utah use public lands um. All 960 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,160 Speaker 1: across the country. The numbers shrink significantly when you reach 961 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,280 Speaker 1: over to the eastern US, but you still find thirty 962 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 1: six of hunters in America use public lands. UM. Think 963 00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,799 Speaker 1: everyone's sitting at the table knows it's critically important for 964 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,320 Speaker 1: sportsman and Utah sportsman. Now, a lot you're no stranger 965 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: to this. A lot of folks will tell you that 966 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,400 Speaker 1: the Utah Delegation has been you know, the tip of 967 00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:14,680 Speaker 1: the spear and calling for the transfer of public lands 968 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: to the states, or oftentimes you're here pushing for the 969 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,040 Speaker 1: privatization of public lands. Can you lay out like lay 970 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,880 Speaker 1: out your biggest Yeah, I use the term REALI your 971 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: biggest sort of mile high perspective on what you generally 972 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:36,360 Speaker 1: think about when you think about public lands, federally managed 973 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: public lands, like what sort of your your guiding principles 974 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:47,839 Speaker 1: and how we distribute, manage, organize the public lands estate. Yeah. 975 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: I only recoil at the word privatization because no one's 976 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,279 Speaker 1: ever talking about that. That's one of the that's one 977 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: of the words. That's one of the words has a 978 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,600 Speaker 1: connotation you throw out when you want to make a 979 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,799 Speaker 1: cute public statement. Okay, So I give me a minute out. 980 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:06,520 Speaker 1: Because states, all states have had federal land grants, have 981 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 1: gotten have unloaded a lot of their lands. I think, 982 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,239 Speaker 1: I mean Utah maybe from from original from what the 983 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 1: state originally held through actually like for from land grant 984 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,880 Speaker 1: from federal down to state it is gone, honestly, I 985 00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,000 Speaker 1: don't mean to stay gone, but is no longer held 986 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,440 Speaker 1: by the state. Um, that's accurate. In California they sold 987 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 1: off most of their stuff, and Texas got rid of 988 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:40,360 Speaker 1: virtually all of their state land. I don't know because 989 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 1: they they don't have any federal So I don't get 990 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:46,319 Speaker 1: involved in that at all. Um. But it depends on 991 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,360 Speaker 1: how you actually write the bill. So for the p 992 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,160 Speaker 1: L I I was doing for Eastern Utah, everything that 993 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,759 Speaker 1: I was transferring to the state, we always had the 994 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,480 Speaker 1: caveat put in there that had to be held for 995 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,640 Speaker 1: public purpose, which simply meant you can't sell it, you 996 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: can't privatize it. And so why is that point missed? 997 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:08,440 Speaker 1: No one wants to hear it. I keep saying it. 998 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: So you tell me, I don't really know. So so 999 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: you're you, you will tell me now that you will say, 1000 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,279 Speaker 1: like if you look like, forget what happened in the past, 1001 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 1: forget what might have happened with you know, in different states, 1002 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,520 Speaker 1: what they did a school, trust lands and things. You're 1003 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:26,279 Speaker 1: comfortable with the idea that if this day going forward, 1004 00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,120 Speaker 1: your coming with the idea that federal lands that would 1005 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,440 Speaker 1: be handed over to the states, you'd be comfortable with 1006 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 1: some sort of compromise saying that these would always stand 1007 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,680 Speaker 1: in the public domain so they could be used. Yeah, 1008 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,360 Speaker 1: is there a differences so they could be used in 1009 00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: public domain? Ah? No, public purposes has to be if 1010 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,200 Speaker 1: you use public purpose language, that means has to be 1011 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: government controlled in some way, and it has to be 1012 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: used for a public purpose, which is not the same 1013 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,799 Speaker 1: thing as yeah, like purposes. It's the phrase I want 1014 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,839 Speaker 1: to put in there because ultimately I look at it 1015 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: is land land, just land has to be able there 1016 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,440 Speaker 1: to help people. And I actually think that in most cases, 1017 00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,160 Speaker 1: the states do a better job in maintaining the land 1018 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,880 Speaker 1: and helping people than the federal the federal government does. 1019 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,880 Speaker 1: I mean, states don't have a seventeen billion dollar backlog 1020 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: in the maintenance of their state parks, and especially in Utah, 1021 00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,640 Speaker 1: Coral Springs down in southern Utah and the place outside 1022 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,800 Speaker 1: of Moab, all of those were lands that either we 1023 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,280 Speaker 1: were given to the state or they went into a 1024 00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 1: state partnership with them. The state occupied them and did 1025 00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,080 Speaker 1: them and used them so they could become really recreation 1026 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 1: opportunities and destination spots that the federal government simply wasn't doing. 1027 00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:51,800 Speaker 1: They either didn't have the desire or they didn't have 1028 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,440 Speaker 1: the money or the manpower to do it. They allowed 1029 00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,640 Speaker 1: either in the case at Moab, the county to manage 1030 00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,280 Speaker 1: it and run it as a great record Asian destination spot. 1031 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,080 Speaker 1: And in Cannab Kane County area, it was the state 1032 00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:06,800 Speaker 1: that took it over and ran is a very well 1033 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,680 Speaker 1: run state park. I think states can do that, but 1034 00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,640 Speaker 1: that is the issue. What you want to do is 1035 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 1: make sure that the land is managed for the greatest 1036 00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 1: access for people. And that's why sometimes a lot of 1037 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,400 Speaker 1: the conservation efforts that are out there simply to designate 1038 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,919 Speaker 1: lands as monuments or whatever you want to or even 1039 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:30,040 Speaker 1: as wilderness, it stops that kind of access. That's why 1040 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:31,960 Speaker 1: when I was going through the p l I process 1041 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:35,600 Speaker 1: in eastern Utah, the idea was, let's designate the areas 1042 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,240 Speaker 1: that could be specifically their primary purpose, their focal purpose, 1043 00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: their number one priority purpose. Especially once again, I'll get 1044 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,920 Speaker 1: a complete sentence out here eventually, I'm sorry. A lot 1045 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,240 Speaker 1: of people talk about multiple use. It's a great thing, 1046 00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,520 Speaker 1: which is good, but multiple use also can give you 1047 00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,280 Speaker 1: some problems when somebody's use of what their version of 1048 00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,520 Speaker 1: what is multiple use is more important than their version 1049 00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:00,840 Speaker 1: of multiple use. So what I was trying to do 1050 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:02,960 Speaker 1: is say, Okay, give me the areas in which the 1051 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,400 Speaker 1: primary use should be for recreation opportunities. That means in 1052 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,200 Speaker 1: bike trails, that means in hiking trails, motorized trails, we 1053 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,720 Speaker 1: even took some specific book cliffs. That's what I was 1054 00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,440 Speaker 1: looking for in the book cliffs, to make sure that 1055 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,440 Speaker 1: that was always set aside specifically for hunting and fishing, 1056 00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:23,280 Speaker 1: and make that as the number one most significant issue. 1057 00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,360 Speaker 1: And if you then can put in other areas with 1058 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,320 Speaker 1: that that doesn't take away from that primary issue of recreation, fine, 1059 00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,600 Speaker 1: but that has to be the primary area. And then 1060 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: put in other areas the primary purpose will be for development. 1061 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,000 Speaker 1: If you can do recreation around the development, fine, but 1062 00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,400 Speaker 1: make sure there's a primarial and there's plenty of land 1063 00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,920 Speaker 1: for all of that. So whether if the federal government 1064 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,440 Speaker 1: will actually do that, I'm cool with that. But what 1065 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,320 Speaker 1: I have said on history, I have seen that federal 1066 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:56,439 Speaker 1: land managers oftentimes make arbitrary and capricious decisions in which 1067 00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,920 Speaker 1: they actually close the access to those areas without every 1068 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,400 Speaker 1: are trying to talk to people, and they don't. They 1069 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,520 Speaker 1: don't care. They don't give a damn whether it hurts 1070 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: anybody or not. Having four areas that have always had 1071 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,520 Speaker 1: a triathlon running their forest land and all the sudden 1072 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:12,520 Speaker 1: they side, we're not going to do that anymore because 1073 01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 1: we don't want to. And they didn't ever give a reason, 1074 01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,680 Speaker 1: or they give an alternative access to it. Well, okay, 1075 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,640 Speaker 1: I've used I have very seldom seen state and local 1076 01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:25,760 Speaker 1: governments do that. And besides, if you're a person there 1077 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,479 Speaker 1: and it's owned run by the counties, run by the state, 1078 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,440 Speaker 1: you have a better chance of getting to that person 1079 01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 1: who's making that decision and voicing your objection than if 1080 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,000 Speaker 1: it's run by the federal government. If you don't like 1081 01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,360 Speaker 1: what d O I did, you can come back here 1082 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: and throw rocks at their windows, but there's very little 1083 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 1: access that you actually have to say I don't like 1084 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,080 Speaker 1: how you're managing my lands. And a lot of the 1085 01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,480 Speaker 1: bills that were coming through us our decisions have been 1086 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:53,600 Speaker 1: made by federal land managers that legislators and their constituents 1087 01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,760 Speaker 1: just think they screwed us. They weren't supposed to do that. 1088 01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,760 Speaker 1: They took away an opportunity, and not just in the West. 1089 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:03,520 Speaker 1: We past one in Michigan where the federal land managers 1090 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 1: decided to cut off voting activities and recreation activities on 1091 01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,560 Speaker 1: the shore of this area just because even though the 1092 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:13,720 Speaker 1: locals didn't want it, it it had always been there. The 1093 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,360 Speaker 1: locals were upset about it. We actually had to pass 1094 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:19,280 Speaker 1: a piece of legislation that said, no, we reinstate those 1095 01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,640 Speaker 1: kinds of activities. I have found the federal government has 1096 01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:25,760 Speaker 1: a more cavalier attitude about lands than state and locals do. 1097 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: But once again, for me, it is are we using 1098 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,440 Speaker 1: the lands actually to be a benefit and actually helping people? 1099 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,080 Speaker 1: And that includes sportsman's, sportsmen, hundreds and fishers. They are 1100 01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:41,560 Speaker 1: extremely important to me. That's also why actually sportsman's are 1101 01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 1: having I think an undue burden to try and make 1102 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: sure that we keep these lands open. I said the 1103 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,120 Speaker 1: Pittman Robertson that comes up with a billion dollars. You 1104 01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:52,840 Speaker 1: guys are funding that land and water conservation which is offshore. 1105 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:56,600 Speaker 1: That's three million dollars. I mean you are spending. And 1106 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,000 Speaker 1: another reason, without mentioning any kind of names, their group 1107 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,600 Speaker 1: out there that make a whole lot of money on 1108 01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:05,600 Speaker 1: federal lands. But actually, besides their taxes that they their 1109 01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,040 Speaker 1: corporate taxes, they spend, they don't put an extra dime 1110 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:11,640 Speaker 1: into the maintenance of those public lands, but they insist 1111 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 1: those public lands to be open to actually fatten their 1112 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,280 Speaker 1: bottom line. That bothers me too. You've mentioned a number 1113 01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:23,120 Speaker 1: of times the maintenance backlog on federally managed public lands 1114 01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,360 Speaker 1: and not having the resources to manage the land that 1115 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,400 Speaker 1: you do have. I'm sure you're familiar with if I 1116 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,360 Speaker 1: want to this idea, but I like to bring it 1117 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:30,959 Speaker 1: up to get your feedback on or how you feel 1118 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:35,040 Speaker 1: about it. Is Oftentimes you'll hear people articulated as a 1119 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:39,160 Speaker 1: design to fail situation. And there's an analogy I've used 1120 01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,200 Speaker 1: and and and I'll use it here. So it's a 1121 01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,680 Speaker 1: it's a far reaching analogy, but I think it kind 1122 01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,240 Speaker 1: of explains it. Like in my home, we have a dishwasher, 1123 01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,160 Speaker 1: dishwashing machine. I have sort of an aesthetic fundamental dislike 1124 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,040 Speaker 1: of the thing. My wife likes it a lot. I 1125 01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,600 Speaker 1: will argue that it's not as efficient and not as 1126 01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,200 Speaker 1: effective as hand washing, okay, and she will argue that 1127 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,200 Speaker 1: hand washing is not as efficient and not as effective 1128 01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:06,800 Speaker 1: as usual the dishwasher. So I have like a fundamental 1129 01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,520 Speaker 1: distrust and dislike of the contraption. If I were to 1130 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,800 Speaker 1: go in and damage the machine internally so that it 1131 01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,479 Speaker 1: would clearly stop working well, and I could then later 1132 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,680 Speaker 1: point out and say, you see, it doesn't work as 1133 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:23,760 Speaker 1: well as this, I think that some people would look 1134 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,720 Speaker 1: at the federal backlog on maintenance the lands, and would 1135 01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:28,680 Speaker 1: say that there are people who have a sort of 1136 01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,120 Speaker 1: fundamental dislike of federally managed public lands and they do 1137 01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:36,600 Speaker 1: their best to strip them of funding so that they 1138 01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:39,240 Speaker 1: can then point to how poor of a job they're doing. 1139 01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:43,600 Speaker 1: Do you feel that there's that that's that that argument 1140 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,080 Speaker 1: has merit or do you not think that that could 1141 01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:56,520 Speaker 1: in some way explain it? Like? Um? Like now, actually, well, 1142 01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,320 Speaker 1: first of all, I understand because my dishwasher at home works, 1143 01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,680 Speaker 1: my win in my apartment in Washington doesn't, so I 1144 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,720 Speaker 1: do everything by hands. So so you're you're you're intimately 1145 01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:06,800 Speaker 1: familiar with both strata and I haven't fixed it, so 1146 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,960 Speaker 1: you'll be happy with that dishwasher. Um, I'm not going 1147 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,600 Speaker 1: to discount the validity of the argument that you're making. 1148 01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:15,960 Speaker 1: I think it has it could they I don't know 1149 01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:17,920 Speaker 1: how to verify that, nor do I know how to 1150 01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:22,000 Speaker 1: quantity quantify it. I also do think, though, that a 1151 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:24,400 Speaker 1: lot of the backlock has come from decisions that are 1152 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:32,320 Speaker 1: being made that are counterproductive. Um. For actually, and they're 1153 01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,080 Speaker 1: how do I put this once again? For example, a 1154 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,160 Speaker 1: park if we're talking about that, to me to fulfill 1155 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,000 Speaker 1: the person. The purpose of a park people have to 1156 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,280 Speaker 1: go there and see it and experience it. There are 1157 01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,000 Speaker 1: some people within the Park Service that don't believe people 1158 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,040 Speaker 1: should be seeing their parks. They have this idea that 1159 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,840 Speaker 1: parks should be conserved. That's their purpose, not to experience it, 1160 01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:58,080 Speaker 1: but to conserve it. So they will put roadblocks and 1161 01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:00,200 Speaker 1: make it more difficult for people to go in there. 1162 01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:03,640 Speaker 1: I don't think we do enough to try and attract 1163 01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,000 Speaker 1: people into the national parks. We put roadblocks, we put 1164 01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: fees that are silly. We put restrictions on how you 1165 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:14,240 Speaker 1: access it. You can't take bottled water into whatever it is. 1166 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,920 Speaker 1: They put restrictions on that. I think that's the bigger problem. 1167 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,280 Speaker 1: I also think that some of the money has been 1168 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:23,880 Speaker 1: misused that goes into the Park Service as well. So 1169 01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,720 Speaker 1: in the A. Bomb administration when they did the big 1170 01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:30,280 Speaker 1: increase in federal funding at the very beginning of his administration, 1171 01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:32,200 Speaker 1: a lot of new money went to the Park Service. 1172 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,720 Speaker 1: Most of that Park Service money, to my to my mind, 1173 01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:38,800 Speaker 1: went to administration and to buy new uniforms and to 1174 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:42,520 Speaker 1: higher new administrators. As to opposing, as opposed to putting 1175 01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:46,240 Speaker 1: into a park, we have tried with the Centennial Fund 1176 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,040 Speaker 1: that we passed last year to try and change that 1177 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,080 Speaker 1: dynamics so that we have real businessmen who are now 1178 01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,520 Speaker 1: part of that fund that are trying to leverage private 1179 01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:59,120 Speaker 1: money to come in there and buy things to add 1180 01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,520 Speaker 1: to parks and and cut down on that maintenance and 1181 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:05,200 Speaker 1: do things. But they also are clearly right that if 1182 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:08,000 Speaker 1: if you are a private money, private person, you want 1183 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,880 Speaker 1: to put personal money into a project, there are some 1184 01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,840 Speaker 1: projects you want to see. You want to see roads 1185 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,680 Speaker 1: and campgrounds. You're not going to put personal money into 1186 01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:21,480 Speaker 1: a sewer system. That's just not sexy enough. But if 1187 01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 1: we actually have those things working together so that the 1188 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:27,920 Speaker 1: Centennial Fund can be leveraging corporate money and private donations 1189 01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:31,600 Speaker 1: to get the outward display, the money Congress appropriates the 1190 01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:34,840 Speaker 1: Park Service can be put into the internal functions that 1191 01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,400 Speaker 1: are not sexy and exciting to do it. And if 1192 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,320 Speaker 1: we get them working together now that's with the new 1193 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,440 Speaker 1: Centennial Fund, and I like the process that's going the 1194 01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,240 Speaker 1: the person who's cheering that fund right now, as well 1195 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:49,760 Speaker 1: as the new Park Service interim director. Our sympaths are 1196 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,120 Speaker 1: are are sympathetic, they see eye to eye, and they're 1197 01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,600 Speaker 1: working towards that that to me can help solve the problem. 1198 01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:59,560 Speaker 1: And I don't necessarily think they're trying to script the 1199 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,480 Speaker 1: parks them. So we can say a hot sea, I 1200 01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:05,680 Speaker 1: told you so, although I can buy that, especially if 1201 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,840 Speaker 1: there's somebody that believes having visitors coming to the park 1202 01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:10,680 Speaker 1: is not what I want. I want to close it 1203 01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:13,080 Speaker 1: all down so it will always be preserved in my park. 1204 01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:17,880 Speaker 1: And once again, we have have anecdotal examples, but they 1205 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,400 Speaker 1: are real examples of land managers in parks that simply 1206 01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,560 Speaker 1: said I don't want people in there because it's too 1207 01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:28,400 Speaker 1: noisy for the rest of my park. Well, what do 1208 01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,320 Speaker 1: you say to people, Well, let me approach this a 1209 01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:36,040 Speaker 1: different way. I agree with you from the things that 1210 01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:37,680 Speaker 1: I've seen in my lifetime. I agree with you that 1211 01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:42,560 Speaker 1: people will take a something they perceive as necessary and 1212 01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:46,720 Speaker 1: they will look at the available tools that are all 1213 01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:48,880 Speaker 1: there to achieve it. So if someone says we are 1214 01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:52,520 Speaker 1: running out of undisturbed landscapes, or we're running out of 1215 01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,160 Speaker 1: pieces of habitat for for wildlife species that are very 1216 01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:59,840 Speaker 1: sensitive to habitat loss or habitat destruction, and they recognize 1217 01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:01,920 Speaker 1: the problem, and then you have to go and look 1218 01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,080 Speaker 1: and say, well, what tools are at my disposal, and 1219 01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:06,760 Speaker 1: when you look, you might wand it being there, there's 1220 01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:09,400 Speaker 1: nothing tailor made for what I'm after. So I will 1221 01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take this this Antiquities Act and try to 1222 01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,559 Speaker 1: apply that to get what I'm after, or I'm going 1223 01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:20,439 Speaker 1: to take you know, the park mandate and apply that 1224 01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,800 Speaker 1: to achieve what I'm after. Do you feel that there's 1225 01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:26,519 Speaker 1: a better way for people who are trying to address 1226 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:32,960 Speaker 1: those concerns? Clearly I do, and and it once again, 1227 01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:37,599 Speaker 1: um well, the thought that came to mind recently is 1228 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,120 Speaker 1: the person who's now in charge of fish and wildlife 1229 01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:44,840 Speaker 1: came from state government, and state government's goal was to 1230 01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:50,840 Speaker 1: actually actually enhance wildlife, and they realized that to do 1231 01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,600 Speaker 1: that you had to get the hundreds and fishers to 1232 01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:57,640 Speaker 1: be paying those fees to put the money into the 1233 01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,439 Speaker 1: enhanced wildlife. So if you get more fees, you can 1234 01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,240 Speaker 1: get better wildlife. If you have better wildlife, more people 1235 01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:05,960 Speaker 1: will be hunting and fishing, and therefore it can work 1236 01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:09,880 Speaker 1: together you solve that problem. On the federal level, I 1237 01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:14,000 Speaker 1: don't necessarily see that actually happening. And sometimes and and 1238 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,200 Speaker 1: that's probably a good reason why the states are in 1239 01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,240 Speaker 1: charge of wildlife because I think simply see they do 1240 01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:21,719 Speaker 1: a better job. I see a lot of people saying, 1241 01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:24,800 Speaker 1: all right, if I want to enhance wildlife, let's just 1242 01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:26,920 Speaker 1: carve it out so no one ever touches it or 1243 01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,200 Speaker 1: talks to it, and make sure that those people who 1244 01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:33,960 Speaker 1: could benefit by by you know, hunting and fishing, they 1245 01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,080 Speaker 1: don't get a chance to actually put in any input, 1246 01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,400 Speaker 1: they don't get a chance to actually fund that process. 1247 01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:41,760 Speaker 1: And if we did it differently, so on the federal level, 1248 01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:43,960 Speaker 1: we were also saying, let's try to learn how that 1249 01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:48,080 Speaker 1: we can enhance wildlife by allowing people who hunt and 1250 01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:51,720 Speaker 1: fish to pay into the fund that enhances it and 1251 01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:53,840 Speaker 1: make sure and that that also has to say is 1252 01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,080 Speaker 1: you've got to get the kind of wildlife that people 1253 01:09:56,120 --> 01:10:00,559 Speaker 1: want hunting fish and I don't think that's wrong. Wildlife 1254 01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,800 Speaker 1: does pretty well. You know. I think that we had 1255 01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:06,160 Speaker 1: a conversation with some of the other day. I think, 1256 01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, the year I was born, there were about 1257 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,240 Speaker 1: one point five million turkeys in the US. There are 1258 01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:17,320 Speaker 1: now seven million turkeys. The explosion of turkeys, and they're 1259 01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:19,479 Speaker 1: all in my neighbor. They come in my yard and 1260 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,280 Speaker 1: eat my grapes all the time. The explosion of turkeys 1261 01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,760 Speaker 1: created like a whole new population of hunters who are 1262 01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,200 Speaker 1: paying into the fee structure to support hunting. So it 1263 01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:32,720 Speaker 1: is it's like enhancing wildlife is enhancing spending on wildlife. 1264 01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:35,920 Speaker 1: I think that that's pretty clear. But I think that 1265 01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:38,360 Speaker 1: a problem of frustration some people have and I want 1266 01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,760 Speaker 1: to move on to other ideas, but a problem of 1267 01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:43,200 Speaker 1: frustration I think people have is what do we do 1268 01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,600 Speaker 1: about if if we as a nation have does this 1269 01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,280 Speaker 1: society that we want to set aside that we want 1270 01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:51,320 Speaker 1: to save some places and just have it be to that, 1271 01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:59,520 Speaker 1: do we want the most pristine landscapes to remain intact? 1272 01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,280 Speaker 1: I think that people are going to continue to try 1273 01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:06,679 Speaker 1: to strive to find tools to make that happen. And 1274 01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:08,640 Speaker 1: and the question would simply be is how much of 1275 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,240 Speaker 1: the land you want to have that classification? I think 1276 01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,800 Speaker 1: wilderness is what wilderness is one or two percent of 1277 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,240 Speaker 1: the country. But you can also the land regenerates itself. 1278 01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:20,800 Speaker 1: You leave something alone long enough, it reverts back to 1279 01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:24,880 Speaker 1: wilderness characteristics. The deck on my apartment will eventually become 1280 01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,360 Speaker 1: wilderness if I don't do anything with it long enough. 1281 01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:30,760 Speaker 1: So it doesn't mean that it has to be. It 1282 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:34,200 Speaker 1: has to be. Now you can reclaim land and use 1283 01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:36,720 Speaker 1: that and it can be regenerated into that process. So 1284 01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,800 Speaker 1: you don't have to get recreation off of something in 1285 01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:42,760 Speaker 1: order to eventually reclaim it as wilderness. You don't have 1286 01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,800 Speaker 1: to get economic development off is something in order to 1287 01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,080 Speaker 1: eventually someday reclaim that as pristine land that you can 1288 01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:54,240 Speaker 1: recreate on or use for wilderness. I still think it 1289 01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:59,600 Speaker 1: can be a win win situation. The Outdoor Industry Association 1290 01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:02,479 Speaker 1: recently pulled, I mean, as you I'm sure you all know, 1291 01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:06,400 Speaker 1: recently pulled their trade show from Utah due to what 1292 01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:10,880 Speaker 1: they perceived to be anti public lands position. Um, it's 1293 01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:18,920 Speaker 1: eight hundred seven seven billion dollar industry. Do you have 1294 01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:21,439 Speaker 1: I mean glad to see him go? Think it was 1295 01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:25,960 Speaker 1: a misunderstanding, a mischaracterization. No, I'm obviously not glad to 1296 01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:28,000 Speaker 1: see them go, because there are a lot of small 1297 01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,680 Speaker 1: um industry personnel that that that show was very beneficial 1298 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,080 Speaker 1: to them. The problem I have, obviously is I think 1299 01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:39,519 Speaker 1: there were a few very rich companies, big companies that 1300 01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,879 Speaker 1: were motivating that they were making a lot of demands 1301 01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:44,680 Speaker 1: all the time on the state of Utah, which I 1302 01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,280 Speaker 1: found funny but I wasn't in state government, so I 1303 01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:49,800 Speaker 1: didn't have to deal with that at all. I do 1304 01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,639 Speaker 1: think that some of the rich companies that motive that 1305 01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:59,320 Speaker 1: that mandated that move UM had provided misinformation. I feel 1306 01:12:59,400 --> 01:13:01,360 Speaker 1: personally used by some of them. I think they have 1307 01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:05,799 Speaker 1: lied about my state as well, and and I'm somewhat 1308 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:10,960 Speaker 1: bitter about that. But you know, with any private sector, 1309 01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,599 Speaker 1: you have a right to do whatever you want to do, 1310 01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:16,639 Speaker 1: and I think you, as much as anyone would respect 1311 01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,760 Speaker 1: that right. I acknowledged that right. I don't know if 1312 01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:29,040 Speaker 1: I respect aledge Uh. I wanna play a definition game. UM. 1313 01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:31,360 Speaker 1: We talked, like in the sports community, we talked a 1314 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,320 Speaker 1: ton about access, and we've talked a lot about it 1315 01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:37,880 Speaker 1: just sitting here today. Traditionally, my understanding of the word 1316 01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,760 Speaker 1: had been UM that access was if I were to say, 1317 01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,679 Speaker 1: like an increase in access for for hunters and anglers, 1318 01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:50,280 Speaker 1: increase and access for sportsmen, I would mean that lands 1319 01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,799 Speaker 1: that you couldn't practice your discipline on, that you couldn't 1320 01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:58,400 Speaker 1: hunt and fish on in the past, would be made 1321 01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:02,240 Speaker 1: available for those activities. So an increase in access would 1322 01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:06,600 Speaker 1: be that you're opening up places where you're allowed to 1323 01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:11,599 Speaker 1: do the activities. I feel that now people are taking 1324 01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,919 Speaker 1: people are looking at this idea that people love access, 1325 01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:17,600 Speaker 1: and you find people coalesced around this idea that we 1326 01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,280 Speaker 1: need more access because oftentimes when you go out and 1327 01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:22,880 Speaker 1: pull people who are coming into hunting and fishing, they 1328 01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:27,960 Speaker 1: will cite access as a significant barrier to entry. Many 1329 01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:31,080 Speaker 1: people name it as the primary barrier to entry, meaning 1330 01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:34,920 Speaker 1: a place to go. Um by people taking the taking 1331 01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:37,559 Speaker 1: the fact that people like the word access and applied 1332 01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,000 Speaker 1: it to different things, And now I think part of 1333 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:43,600 Speaker 1: the conversation around access is almost like a like we 1334 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,840 Speaker 1: had a misunderstanding and the access might in fact just 1335 01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:51,040 Speaker 1: mean increasing the ways in which people can access land, 1336 01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:55,400 Speaker 1: building new roads, removing restrictions on travel restrictions, and that 1337 01:14:55,640 --> 01:15:02,240 Speaker 1: is access enhancement. Do you have a working definition of 1338 01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:04,960 Speaker 1: public access, like like what it means to you and 1339 01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:07,840 Speaker 1: how you view it? Isn't it the same thing that 1340 01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:12,760 Speaker 1: opening open Having more area sometimes requires the ability of 1341 01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:16,080 Speaker 1: getting people into those areas. Yeah, so let's let's take this. 1342 01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:18,880 Speaker 1: It still opens more areas for their their use. Yeah. 1343 01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:20,479 Speaker 1: So I would view if I was going to go 1344 01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:22,880 Speaker 1: look and say, like what would be a great access story, 1345 01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:27,439 Speaker 1: I would look at what recently happened in New Mexico 1346 01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:33,040 Speaker 1: where we had a wilderness area that was landlocked. So 1347 01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,559 Speaker 1: you have a small wilderness there a significant wilderness area 1348 01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:39,400 Speaker 1: that the public literally could not get into because they 1349 01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:42,720 Speaker 1: would have to trespass and leaving the public road, they 1350 01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:48,440 Speaker 1: would have to trespass to get in there. A landowner 1351 01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:53,200 Speaker 1: who owned one of the buffer the barrier pieces donated 1352 01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:56,920 Speaker 1: as property to the federal government. It came with certain caveats, 1353 01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:01,680 Speaker 1: um some the the senators from New Mexico, Heinrich and 1354 01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:07,400 Speaker 1: you'd all worked with Secretary Zinky, and we got a 1355 01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:10,519 Speaker 1: new piece of land added to the federal estate that 1356 01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,680 Speaker 1: provides access into the wilderness area. No one changed the 1357 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:16,280 Speaker 1: travel restrictions within the wilderness area. It's it's a non 1358 01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:21,840 Speaker 1: motorized wilderness area. But now Americans can park their car 1359 01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:26,000 Speaker 1: and hike in and access this wilderness area, the Sabanosa 1360 01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,320 Speaker 1: Wilderness Area. So in my mind, I would look like 1361 01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:34,920 Speaker 1: that is a beautiful access story. I like that one 1362 01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:38,280 Speaker 1: a whole bunch um. That would be like a definition 1363 01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:44,760 Speaker 1: of access. And I feel that or I feel that 1364 01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,360 Speaker 1: some people are taking access and meaning just trying to 1365 01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:52,080 Speaker 1: remove travel restrictions on land that already is technically accessible 1366 01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:53,839 Speaker 1: to hunters of fishermen, and I think that that causes 1367 01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:55,840 Speaker 1: a certain amount of tention because people will look and 1368 01:16:56,240 --> 01:17:00,360 Speaker 1: feel that we have a finite amount of space that 1369 01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:05,439 Speaker 1: is off limits to mechanized use in vehicle travel, and 1370 01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,880 Speaker 1: they are working hard to try to preserve those intact spaces. 1371 01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:13,160 Speaker 1: Do you feel that there's merits of wanting those spaces? 1372 01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:21,240 Speaker 1: If I understand your question, yeah, you do, Uh, I 1373 01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:23,120 Speaker 1: think so. I mean the example you gave in New 1374 01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:27,920 Speaker 1: Mexico cool. I don't have a problem with that whatsoever. Um. 1375 01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:32,519 Speaker 1: We did have when when we lost a majority and 1376 01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,559 Speaker 1: went in minority, there were a couple of hearings we 1377 01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:38,679 Speaker 1: had in the Resource Committee again in which they brought 1378 01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,320 Speaker 1: some union people out because they thought they would be 1379 01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:46,680 Speaker 1: very positive about conservation concepts, and they were. But what 1380 01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,599 Speaker 1: they quit doing that quick soon because they found out 1381 01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,559 Speaker 1: that when you had economic development, like like an oil 1382 01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:54,879 Speaker 1: rig or something that was an oil well that was developed, 1383 01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,400 Speaker 1: they had to have roads that went into there. And 1384 01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:00,920 Speaker 1: the fact that they had some new roads developed opened 1385 01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:03,280 Speaker 1: up a whole area that was not part of the 1386 01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:06,840 Speaker 1: economic development for hunting and fishing that wasn't there before. 1387 01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:10,200 Speaker 1: Because they didn't have the road. So oddly enough, these 1388 01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:13,759 Speaker 1: union members were very positive about the economic development aspect 1389 01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:17,120 Speaker 1: because it allowed them to actually get into areas that 1390 01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:18,840 Speaker 1: they didn't have before. And I think that's the same 1391 01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:23,120 Speaker 1: thing you're saying, isn't it. Well, Uh, apologies on me 1392 01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,360 Speaker 1: a little bit opaque, but it's not my intention, and 1393 01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:28,760 Speaker 1: it's compared to some of the other things we talked about. 1394 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,920 Speaker 1: It's probably a little bit not something you hear as 1395 01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:36,080 Speaker 1: much about, but it has to do with I don't 1396 01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:37,880 Speaker 1: feel that. I feel that a little in a little 1397 01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:41,840 Speaker 1: bit way, we're twisting the intent of access enhancement to 1398 01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:46,799 Speaker 1: make it be that we're trying to increase vehicle traffic 1399 01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:49,840 Speaker 1: and motorize use in areas where it wouldn't have been 1400 01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:54,840 Speaker 1: in camouflaging that as an achievement of access enhancement, but 1401 01:18:56,520 --> 01:19:01,480 Speaker 1: that you don't seem particularly like inspired and talking about that, um, 1402 01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:04,080 Speaker 1: and i'd like to ask you can we're running out topic. 1403 01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:06,680 Speaker 1: Were going into one last idea for a minute. I 1404 01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:09,200 Speaker 1: gotta think about what you just said, because I don't 1405 01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,640 Speaker 1: know whether I agree with you or not, but I 1406 01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:14,680 Speaker 1: don't disagree with you yet. Okay, maybe we'll return to 1407 01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:19,280 Speaker 1: it next time. Um, can you give me mile high 1408 01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:26,240 Speaker 1: perspectives on the Endangered Species Act? It's had some remarkable successes, 1409 01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:30,520 Speaker 1: had some remarkable failures. It leads to a lot of tensions. 1410 01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:33,120 Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you would like 1411 01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:35,360 Speaker 1: to see happen with the e s A As we 1412 01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:39,519 Speaker 1: increasingly talk about modifying it. There's been talking about Altright 1413 01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:42,840 Speaker 1: appealing it. Do you have a general guiding principle when 1414 01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:46,360 Speaker 1: you're looking at the Endangered Species Act? Yeah, frustration because 1415 01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:49,160 Speaker 1: they don't know how to fix it. The problem is 1416 01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:51,800 Speaker 1: right now with most of the species that are put 1417 01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:54,920 Speaker 1: on the Endangered Species Act, the goal is simply to 1418 01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:58,559 Speaker 1: control land area around it. It is not to improve 1419 01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:02,160 Speaker 1: the species. We is why the success rate of this 1420 01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:05,599 Speaker 1: program is probably one of the lowest of every program. 1421 01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,040 Speaker 1: Were you actually I got a good baseball store that 1422 01:20:09,280 --> 01:20:13,880 Speaker 1: goes even better than that? But Um, the bottom line, 1423 01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,640 Speaker 1: because I know you're running out of time, is I 1424 01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,759 Speaker 1: would love the Endangered Species Act to be better written 1425 01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:23,400 Speaker 1: so that what we do is having matrix that were 1426 01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:25,960 Speaker 1: in there on what it takes to actually rehabilitate a 1427 01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:30,360 Speaker 1: species and then moving towards that. I don't think we're 1428 01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,360 Speaker 1: doing that enough in fact, that we're not doing that 1429 01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:35,320 Speaker 1: at all right now, it's it's simply to control an 1430 01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:39,479 Speaker 1: area as if that will magically rehabilitate the species. That's 1431 01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,599 Speaker 1: not the same thing. I wish it was function more 1432 01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:46,240 Speaker 1: as how you actually do the job, as opposed to saying, okay, 1433 01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:49,400 Speaker 1: we list this as a species. Let's hope if we 1434 01:20:49,479 --> 01:20:52,160 Speaker 1: leave it alone and we'll get better. That doesn't work. 1435 01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:55,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, earlier I mentioned people that are trying to 1436 01:20:55,120 --> 01:21:00,400 Speaker 1: do landscape preservation reach out and try to find tools 1437 01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,439 Speaker 1: and apply those tools to get the job done, even 1438 01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:08,040 Speaker 1: if the tool isn't intended to be that way. And 1439 01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:10,640 Speaker 1: you feel that the ESA is is being used like 1440 01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:17,400 Speaker 1: that as well. Yeah, Yeah, clearly that happens. Sometimes Sometimes 1441 01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,120 Speaker 1: it just happens that we don't know how the hell 1442 01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:22,800 Speaker 1: do I actually rehabilitate the species, but it's listed anyway. 1443 01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:25,920 Speaker 1: What do you feel like, uh, in short term, what 1444 01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:27,880 Speaker 1: kind of thing do you feel that we're going to 1445 01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:32,920 Speaker 1: see movement on e s A modifications or or rewriting 1446 01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:35,920 Speaker 1: the essay or clarifying the essay. I hope we could 1447 01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,800 Speaker 1: clarify it in some way to add those those those 1448 01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:41,599 Speaker 1: modifications so you can find out so it can actually 1449 01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:43,920 Speaker 1: be successful and you can monitor and you know where 1450 01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,000 Speaker 1: you're going to get that success. To be honest, I 1451 01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:48,880 Speaker 1: don't know how to write that into the language of 1452 01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:50,840 Speaker 1: the bill, which is why it is frustrating to me. 1453 01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:54,280 Speaker 1: So I have I have sarcastically said you might as 1454 01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:58,320 Speaker 1: well just get rid of it all and start over again. Um. 1455 01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't mean I really want to get rid of 1456 01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:02,000 Speaker 1: it and start over again. It's just I don't know 1457 01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:04,840 Speaker 1: short of doing that, how you start, how you fix it. 1458 01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:07,840 Speaker 1: I've seen where you've said that, and I've asked people 1459 01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,240 Speaker 1: what you might mean by that, and they've said that 1460 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:15,080 Speaker 1: you were saying that it needs work, and you were 1461 01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,519 Speaker 1: starting at an extreme, hoping to find some solution in 1462 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:22,960 Speaker 1: the middle ground. Now sometimes I just say stuff for 1463 01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:28,120 Speaker 1: the fun of it. Do you have any uh we've 1464 01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:30,040 Speaker 1: touched on a lot. Do you have any final thoughts 1465 01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:31,640 Speaker 1: you'd like to add in? It's been great to I 1466 01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:34,080 Speaker 1: mean admittedly, I mean I've been you know, reading your 1467 01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:40,639 Speaker 1: name for so long. Um, that's ominous. It's uh, it's 1468 01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:45,040 Speaker 1: been great to hear from you how you know, how 1469 01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:47,120 Speaker 1: you kind of how you think and how you approach 1470 01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:49,040 Speaker 1: the world. And I think that people really appreciate it. 1471 01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:51,680 Speaker 1: But do you have any final things you want to 1472 01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:55,040 Speaker 1: touch on or add on now? I I appreciate the 1473 01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:58,880 Speaker 1: chance to discuss things, um and and the way you've 1474 01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:02,960 Speaker 1: presented them and given me the opportunity to talk about it. Oftentimes, 1475 01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:06,280 Speaker 1: um as much as I said, you know, words have meaning, 1476 01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:11,920 Speaker 1: they can also be confusing, and sometimes we're not really 1477 01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:15,439 Speaker 1: talking at an issue, we're talking around it and using 1478 01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:18,000 Speaker 1: the same words with a different meaning to it all together. 1479 01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:20,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot of the problem that 1480 01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:22,760 Speaker 1: we have in the issues that deal with lands and 1481 01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:26,240 Speaker 1: public lands. We all have a common goal, but we 1482 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:29,479 Speaker 1: have different meanings of how you achieve that common goal. 1483 01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:35,240 Speaker 1: So some it's easy to talk about this stuff. In fact, 1484 01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:37,040 Speaker 1: maybe that's one of the issues. I mean, we've gone 1485 01:23:37,080 --> 01:23:40,080 Speaker 1: through it. I haven't really gone through that many different topics, 1486 01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:42,800 Speaker 1: but you've gone into in depth with it. It's like, 1487 01:23:42,880 --> 01:23:46,280 Speaker 1: what an hour and a half in depth. Usually it's 1488 01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:50,080 Speaker 1: sound bites, it's tweets. Sorry. Usually I don't get a 1489 01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:53,880 Speaker 1: chance to talk this this level, this intensity of how 1490 01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:56,360 Speaker 1: we can try and solve some of these issues or 1491 01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:59,120 Speaker 1: bring people together. I don't get that kind of opportunity. 1492 01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:00,840 Speaker 1: This is kind of a union because I appreciate you 1493 01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:03,160 Speaker 1: doing it. Oh, I appreciate you coming on. And I 1494 01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:08,400 Speaker 1: think that as much as different people in different organizations 1495 01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:13,400 Speaker 1: have um wildly different perspectives on how to solve some 1496 01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,959 Speaker 1: of these problems, I think it says a lot for 1497 01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:19,040 Speaker 1: our times and a lot for the country that we 1498 01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:24,440 Speaker 1: have the luxury of being able to have a conversation 1499 01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:30,600 Speaker 1: around public lands and wildlife. Um, that we still have 1500 01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:33,719 Speaker 1: a lot of it, and it's very beautiful, and we're all, 1501 01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:37,640 Speaker 1: hopefully all of us are deeply invested in seeing that 1502 01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:41,559 Speaker 1: those things continue into the future. So thank you for 1503 01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:44,040 Speaker 1: your time. I know you're very busy, man. I appreciate 1504 01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:47,040 Speaker 1: you sitting down with us to discuss these issues. Thanks 1505 01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:47,719 Speaker 1: for the invitation.