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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Tad and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore

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Speaker 1: the intersection of technology, social media, and identity and all

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Speaker 1: of those things intersected in a major way this week

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Speaker 1: with Scarlett Johanson and Open AI. So let's talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Full disclosure, I was already working on putting together an

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Speaker 1: episode rewatching Spike Jones's twenty thirteen movie Her, starring Scarlett

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Speaker 1: Johansson's voice as an AI assistant. I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: compare and contrast what the movie thought AI integration with

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Speaker 1: our life would be like and what it actually has

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Speaker 1: been like ten years later. I'm really excited that the

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Speaker 1: movie Her is part of the public conversation right now

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Speaker 1: because it's one of my favorite movies. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: seen it, I don't want to give too much away,

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Speaker 1: but Scarlet Johansson is the voice walking Phoenix's AI software.

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Speaker 1: The movie imagines a future where AI is less like

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Speaker 1: theory and more like a real human. People in the

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Speaker 1: Her universe fall in love with AI. They have friendships

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Speaker 1: and real meaningful relationships with AI. And that's partly because

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Speaker 1: AI sounds like a real human person who speaks to

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Speaker 1: you and behaves like a person would, not like a

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Speaker 1: robotic voice. And as I was preparing for that episode,

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Speaker 1: the whole thing was Scarlett Johansson really blew up. And

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Speaker 1: the more I thought about it, honestly, the matter I

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Speaker 1: got Last night, I was getting ready for bed, and

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Speaker 1: I was sort of angrily brushing my teeth, and I

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Speaker 1: found myself thinking about this yet again, and the kind

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Speaker 1: of chorus in my mind that I kept saying over

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Speaker 1: and over to myself was that these tech guys just

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Speaker 1: think they own whatever woman they want. Because to me,

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Speaker 1: this is not even really about Scarlett Johansson. It is

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Speaker 1: about what happens when consent in technology is violated again

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Speaker 1: and again and again, and how it erodes the trust

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Speaker 1: that we should be able to count on being at

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Speaker 1: the center of our tech experiences, and how it reinforces

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Speaker 1: that the most powerful companies in our world who are

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Speaker 1: shaping our collective futures, consistently demonstrate that they cannot be

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Speaker 1: trusted to simply respect people, especially when those people are women. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so here's what's going on. Open Ai, the company that

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Speaker 1: makes chat GPT and a major player in the AI space,

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Speaker 1: has been flirting with integrating voice technology to chat geept

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Speaker 1: since around last year, But last week open Ai finally

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Speaker 1: revealed a new conversational interface for Chatgypt that they called

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Speaker 1: Sky yep. Just like a lot of voice technology, Sky

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Speaker 1: has the voice of a woman, but Sky also has

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Speaker 1: a voice that is really similar to the one that

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Speaker 1: Scarlett Johansson used to play the AI assistant called Samantha

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Speaker 1: in the movie Her. But then open ai suddenly disabled

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Speaker 1: this feature over the weekend grand Opening Grand Closing. And

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Speaker 1: this comes after open AI's head Sam Altman, who you

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Speaker 1: might remember we made an episode about he was fired

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Speaker 1: for something we don't totally know what, but it seemed

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Speaker 1: to be related to his lack of honesty, and then

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Speaker 1: he was rehired and is now basically doing whatever the

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Speaker 1: hell he wants. Well, Sam Altman was talking up this

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Speaker 1: integration and comparing it to the movie Her and talking

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Speaker 1: about how we'd finally have AI that felt like a

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Speaker 1: real human that you could be friends with, which is

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Speaker 1: a plot line right out of the movie which spoiler alert.

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Speaker 1: I do think that some of these tech geniuses might

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Speaker 1: actually be low key misunderstanding the takeaway from the movie.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so shutting down this new voice technology after

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Speaker 1: sam Altman was driving so much anticipation about it, everybody

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Speaker 1: myself included, was like, what is going on? Like what's

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Speaker 1: the story there? So then on Monday we get the

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Speaker 1: real team, which is that Scarlett Johansen told why or

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Speaker 1: did a statement that open ai actually reached out to

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Speaker 1: her to ask her to be the actual voice of

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Speaker 1: their new conversational interface and she declined twice, and that

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Speaker 1: open ai and I basically just used her voice anyway,

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Speaker 1: or at least a voice that sounds a lot like

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Speaker 1: her voice and open Ai sam Altman even tweeted a

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Speaker 1: reference to her work in the movie Her when announcing

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Speaker 1: that new chat JPT voice interface, So there isn't really

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Speaker 1: a ton of plausible deniability on his part even Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is what sky open AI's not. Scarlett Johansson's

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Speaker 1: voice integration sounds like I.

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Speaker 2: Don't have a personal name, since I'm just a computer

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Speaker 2: program created by open ai, but you can call me assistant.

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Speaker 1: What's your name? And here is Scarlett Johansson as the

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Speaker 1: voice of the AI Samantha from the movie Her.

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Speaker 2: Well, right, when you asked me if I had a name,

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Speaker 2: I thought, yeah, he's right. I do need a name,

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Speaker 2: but I wanted to pick a good one, so I

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Speaker 2: read a book called How to Name Your Baby, and

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Speaker 2: out of one hundred and eighty thousand names, that's the

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Speaker 2: one I like the best.

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Speaker 1: Well, you read a whole book in the second that

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Speaker 1: I asked you what your name was in.

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Speaker 2: Two one hundreds of a second.

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Speaker 1: Actually, wow, it sounds pretty similar to me, and scar

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Speaker 1: Ja agrees. Here's what she told Wired in a statement.

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Speaker 1: Last September, I received an offer from Sam Altman, who

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Speaker 1: wanted to hire me to voice the current chat GPT

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Speaker 1: four point zero system. He told me that he felt

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Speaker 1: by my voicing the system, I could bridge the gap

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Speaker 1: between tech companies and creatives and help consumers to feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable with the seismic shift concerning humans and AI. He

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Speaker 1: said he felt my voice would be comforting to people.

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Speaker 1: After much consideration and for personal reasons, I declined the offer.

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Speaker 1: Nine months later, my friends, family, and the general public

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Speaker 1: all noted how much the newest system, named Sky sounded

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Speaker 1: like me. When I heard the release demo, I was shocked.

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Speaker 1: And angered and in disbelief that mister Altman would pursue

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Speaker 1: a voice that sounded so eerily similar to mine that

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Speaker 1: my closest friends and news outlets could not tell the difference.

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Speaker 1: Mister Altman even insinuated that the similarity was intentional, tweeting

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Speaker 1: a single word her a reference to the film in

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Speaker 1: which I voiced a chat system Samantha who forms an

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Speaker 1: intimate relationship with a Hue. Two days before the chat

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Speaker 1: GPT four point zero demo was released, mister Altman contacted

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Speaker 1: my agent, asking me to reconsider before we could connect

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Speaker 1: the system was out there. As a result of their actions,

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Speaker 1: I was forced to hire legal counsel, who wrote two

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Speaker 1: letters to mister Altman and open Ai setting out what

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Speaker 1: they had done and asking them to detail the exact

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Speaker 1: process by which they created the Sky Voice. Consequently, open

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Speaker 1: Ai reluctantly agreed to take the sky Voice down. In

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Speaker 1: a time where we are all grappling with deep stakes

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Speaker 1: and the protection of our own likeness, our own work,

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Speaker 1: our own identities, I believe these are questions that deserve

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Speaker 1: absolute clarity. I look forward to resolution in the form

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Speaker 1: of transparency and the passage of appropriate legislation. To help

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Speaker 1: ensure that individual rights are protected. So I really applaud

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Speaker 1: Johanson here, and I think this is the first time

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Speaker 1: that there has been a legal dispute over a sound

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Speaker 1: alike that is, as far as we know, not AI generated,

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Speaker 1: and I think it could set a precedent for this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing going forward, especially or voice actors and

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Speaker 1: creative professionals who can't afford lawyer's feeds or a big

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Speaker 1: lawsuit if their likeness or voice is used this way

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Speaker 1: without their consent. Her statement is also just a good

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Speaker 1: reminder that Johansson has been here before. She is one

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Speaker 1: of the most targeted celebrity figures for AI deep faked images.

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Speaker 1: So finding out that open AI actually asked Scarlett Johanson

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Speaker 1: to work on this twice and when she said no,

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Speaker 1: they just found a sneaky workaround to do it anyway

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Speaker 1: enrages me. It enrages me as a voice professional, It

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Speaker 1: enrages me as a creative and it enrages me as

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Speaker 1: a woman. You know, when I say on the show

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Speaker 1: that the exploitation of women is baked into technology in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways from the ground up, that these

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Speaker 1: are features and not bugs. This is a great example

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Speaker 1: of what I mean. It matters that a company like

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Speaker 1: open ai would build their anticipated voice system in a

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Speaker 1: way that has the exploitation of a woman baked into

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Speaker 1: its earliest foundation, and this is not happenstance. It colors

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Speaker 1: how they see women and other marginalize people as just

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Speaker 1: available to take from in service of them making money

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Speaker 1: to create their vision, a vision that by design ignores

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Speaker 1: and exploits us. Like, don't these people understand that no

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Speaker 1: means no. I should say that open Ai says that

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Speaker 1: they did not actually steal her voice, but I also

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Speaker 1: want to say that I want one hundred percent do

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Speaker 1: not believe them at all. Here's open ai statement. We

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Speaker 1: support the creative community and worked closely with the voice

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Speaker 1: acting industry to ensure we took the right steps to

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Speaker 1: cast chat GPT's voices. Each actor receives compensation above top

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Speaker 1: of market rates, and this will continue for as long

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Speaker 1: as their voices are used in our products. We believe

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Speaker 1: that AI voices should not deliberately mimic a celebrity's distinct voice.

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Speaker 1: Sky's voice is not an imitation of Scarlett Johansson, but

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Speaker 1: belongs to a different professional actress using her own natural

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Speaker 1: speaking voice. To protect their privacy, we cannot share the

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Speaker 1: names of our voice talents. So here's my opinion about

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Speaker 1: what's actually going on. I believe that they probably did

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Speaker 1: work with a human voice actor, and they probably intentionally

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Speaker 1: picked a voice actor that sounded a lot like Scarlett Johansson,

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Speaker 1: and I think they had this person ready to go,

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Speaker 1: whether or not Scarlett Johansson agreed to do this or not. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think they really cared about actually having Scarlett

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Speaker 1: Johansson's permission, and they were going to either use this

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Speaker 1: sound alike or use Scarlett Johansson's real voice. Because in

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Speaker 1: addition to his single word Her tweet, Sam Autman, the

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Speaker 1: head of open ai, also said that the new AI

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Speaker 1: voice technology quote feels like AI from the movies. Open

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Speaker 1: AI's chief technology officer, Mira Murradi, said that that was

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Speaker 1: all a coincidence, but even still, it's like they want

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Speaker 1: to have it both ways. They obviously want us the

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Speaker 1: public to be associating their new technology with the AI

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Speaker 1: and the movie Her, and they're clearly trying to capitalize

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Speaker 1: on that for this rollout, But they want to have

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Speaker 1: all of that and benefit from all of that without

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Speaker 1: actually having the consent from the real human woman behind

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Speaker 1: the voice in the movie that they're referencing. As Bethany

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Speaker 1: Frankel might put it, it is a cheater brand. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break eder back. So I'm not an attorney,

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Speaker 1: so I can't really speak to the legal frameworks at

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Speaker 1: play here, but I do think it is a good

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Speaker 1: opportunity to talk about consent in technology. So in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: looking at the facts and the timeline, I believe open

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Speaker 1: Ai picked a voice actor that sounded a lot like

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Speaker 1: Scarlett Johansson to be able to complete this vision that

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Speaker 1: they had been hyping up that merges creativity and technology

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Speaker 1: for their voice tech. And I think they were betting

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Speaker 1: that legally they were in the clear because they were

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Speaker 1: using a sound alike, But beyond what might happen in

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Speaker 1: a lawsuit, to me, this is the classic story of

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Speaker 1: someone trying to cover their ass after they weaseled out

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Speaker 1: of getting consent. Like the question that OpenAI is asking

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Speaker 1: is probably would we lose a lawsuit? The questions that

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Speaker 1: they're not asking is is this ethical? Are we crossing

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Speaker 1: the boundaries of what this person said they don't want

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Speaker 1: to do? Or questions like are we further damaging the

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Speaker 1: trust between the technology that we make and that we

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Speaker 1: want using it. And these are important questions that they

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Speaker 1: should be asking, because once that trust is damaged, it

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Speaker 1: is not easy to win back. And the entire thing

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Speaker 1: makes me incredibly uncomfortable because I can't not see that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a woman whose body is being used

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Speaker 1: to financially benefit people who are mostly men. And these

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Speaker 1: people who are mostly men have appointed themselves the architects

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Speaker 1: of our future and have shown themselves to be the

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Speaker 1: kind of people who are not interested in clear affirmative consent.

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Speaker 1: I can't help but think that they feel as entitled

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Speaker 1: to the body and likeness of a woman as they

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Speaker 1: do to everyone's data and information online that they use

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Speaker 1: to train their AI without consent for their own profit.

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Speaker 1: It's about entitlement, and why would anybody watching trust these people.

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Speaker 1: If open ai thinks like their statement says that this

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Speaker 1: was done working with the creative voice talent industry and

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Speaker 1: meant to be done in a respectful way, I think

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Speaker 1: it's fair to say that as an industry, we are

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Speaker 1: not buying it. We're smart enough to see these tricks

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Speaker 1: and know that if this is how you're moving that

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Speaker 1: none of us should trust you, and I think that

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Speaker 1: open ai really needs to understand and internalize why we

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Speaker 1: are also skeptical. It's because of their own behavior. This

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Speaker 1: is a natural consequence of their actions. Scores of writers

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Speaker 1: and artists and creative professionals have already had to sue

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Speaker 1: open ai, specifically for using their intellectual property to train

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Speaker 1: their AI without their permission, and a big bulk of

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Speaker 1: the Hollywood Writer Strikes was about AI stealing the work

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Speaker 1: of creative professionals and then being used to replace those

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Speaker 1: same creative professionals. Like open ai doesn't get to act

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Speaker 1: all shocked that people are then naturally skeptical of their

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Speaker 1: intentions and there just is a better way. On the

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Speaker 1: podcast I make with the Mozilla Foundation called IRL that

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Speaker 1: explores ethics in AI, we spoke to artists Matt Dryhurst

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Speaker 1: and Holly Herndon who are building AI consent systems at

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Speaker 1: haveiben trained dot com that allows people to search popular

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Speaker 1: AI training data sets to see if their work shows

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Speaker 1: up in them and makes it easy for people to

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Speaker 1: opt out of having their work used to train AI models.

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Speaker 1: Holli is a musician and she built this publicly available

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Speaker 1: version of her own voice that anybody can play with.

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Speaker 1: So they're both big advocates of what can be created

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Speaker 1: using AI when consent is at the forefront. In a

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Speaker 1: piece for Art Review called AI art in the Problem

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Speaker 1: of Consent, they underscore the importance of the intersection of

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Speaker 1: AI and creativity being grounded in consent writing. My hope

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Speaker 1: is that a new era of abundant media will affirm

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Speaker 1: this social value of art and artists, And this is

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Speaker 1: why establishing new protocols of consent is so vital. I

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Speaker 1: am a deep believer in AI augmented expression and have

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Speaker 1: no desire to limit experimentation or enshrine outdated IP laws.

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Speaker 1: I would simply like to avoid what a world looks

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Speaker 1: like in the absence of consent. When consent is absent,

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Speaker 1: beautiful relationships and connections are stymied that could instead have

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Speaker 1: been nurtured. I hope the dress rehearsal of an AI

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Speaker 1: art future we are witnessing highlights what an opportunity we

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Speaker 1: have to finally fix those damned broken links. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's exactly what we have here. Trust has been eroded,

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Speaker 1: consent has been violated, and those links have been broken.

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Speaker 1: So what's next, while Scarjo is not backing down and

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Speaker 1: Homegirl is notoriously not afraid of a lawsuit. This is

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Speaker 1: the woman who mounted a legal contract dispute against Disney,

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Speaker 1: a notoriously litigious company, and walked away with a settlement.

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Speaker 1: So I don't see Scarlet Johansson's team backing off without

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Speaker 1: a fight. Open AI did pause the use of Sky

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Speaker 1: and apologize directly Johansson, saying we are sorry to Johansson

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Speaker 1: that we didn't communicate better, and I want to get

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Speaker 1: into all of this more in our episode breaking down her.

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Speaker 1: But even the conversation about them wanting to use Scarlet

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Speaker 1: Johansson's voice tells me a lot about how open ai

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Speaker 1: is thinking about technology in this moment. It's like they

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Speaker 1: want to give us the illusion that they're finding thoughtful

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Speaker 1: ways to link creativity, connection, and technology in our futures,

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Speaker 1: which is why they're trying to reference Johansson's voice from her,

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Speaker 1: a movie that is at its core about sad, lonely

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Speaker 1: creative people surrounded by technology and searching for connection. But

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Speaker 1: it's just that, like a shallow, empty movie reference, open

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Speaker 1: AI cannot actually give us connection or community. The best

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Speaker 1: they can do is a movie reference that uses a smooth,

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Speaker 1: stolen voice to kind of mimic those things if you

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Speaker 1: don't look at it too closely. Sam Autman told Scarlet

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Speaker 1: Johansson that using her voice would give people comfort and

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Speaker 1: ease around this technology, people who maybe were a little

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Speaker 1: bit anxious about how quickly AI technologlogy has proliferated, and

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Speaker 1: it's like they can't actually sort out a way to

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Speaker 1: make technology that gives people a genuine reason to feel

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Speaker 1: comfort about it. They can only offer a quick workaround,

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Speaker 1: and worse, in trying to reference this, tech leaders are

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Speaker 1: showing that they think it's okay to do all of

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Speaker 1: this without a strong foundation of consent. They think they

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Speaker 1: have rights to whatever woman's body or whatever woman's voice

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Speaker 1: they want without permission. And none of this bodes well

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Speaker 1: for the kinds of futures they're going to use technology

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Speaker 1: to try to create. And if these are the people

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Speaker 1: who have appointed themselves to build all of our futures,

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Speaker 1: then for everyone's sake, they have got to be better.

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Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

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Speaker 1: just want to say hi, You can reach us at

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Speaker 1: Hello at tengodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

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Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

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Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Brigitad. It's

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Stricklet is

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Speaker 1: our executive Pretty Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review

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Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts.