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Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. Well.
Speaker 1: Here there, welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe,
Speaker 1: joined as always by Steve and Deviny. So this week
Speaker 1: I've gotta talk about a groovy mystery. This is the
Speaker 1: mysterious death of Morgan Ingram in December two thousand eleven.
Speaker 1: And by the way, before we go any further, this
Speaker 1: was suggested by our listener to Cole Thanks to Cole U. Yeah,
Speaker 1: fun little mystery. This is actually kind of big on
Speaker 1: the internet. I don't know if you guys have noticed
Speaker 1: it or not. Just little bit. Yeah, I've actually this
Speaker 1: has been one that's interested me for quite some time actually,
Speaker 1: but we've been kind of waiting for the five year thing.
Speaker 1: Morgan was only twenty years old when she died. About
Speaker 1: the County Corner initially ruled her death to be from
Speaker 1: natural causes, which was pulmonary dema caused by acute intermittent porphyria.
Speaker 1: And if you don't know what that means, I don't
Speaker 1: know either. Yeah. The reason I didn't really research porphyria
Speaker 1: what doma by the politary demons when your lungs filled
Speaker 1: with louis or the sacks around your heart do yeah? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And as far as as far as the link between
Speaker 1: those two, I didn't bother because they revised the cause
Speaker 1: of death later to suicide by drug overdose. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: porforio is really really really rare too. It is, yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, but it does appear that she was being
Speaker 1: treated for it, so yeah, so it's a reasonable conclusion. Well, first,
Speaker 1: a quick introduction to the Ingram family. Morrigan Ingram our
Speaker 1: our victim here was twenty years old and she was
Speaker 1: living with her parents, Stephen Tony, and she had a brother, Ryan,
Speaker 1: who wasn't living at home at the time. Steven Tony
Speaker 1: Ingram also had a grandson whose name was Jared. Uh.
Speaker 1: And the reason I mentioned Jared is he has a
Speaker 1: little small part in this from in this mystery. Uh.
Speaker 1: The Ingrams lived in the three bedroom house on a
Speaker 1: cul de sac called Coral Drive in Carbondale, Colorado, and
Speaker 1: Jared was the brothers, Ryan's I believe so no, no, no, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, just to clarify, he was yeah, I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: she was only twenty. I mean I got so. Anyway, Carbondale, Colorado,
Speaker 1: they were kind of out in the stix. They were.
Speaker 1: They were not right into the town. They were out
Speaker 1: in the country. Rural of states is what I call it,
Speaker 1: or a m rural suburb. Yeah, it actually looks if
Speaker 1: you look at the look at the aerial of it.
Speaker 1: Their little cul de sac is this little is this
Speaker 1: little subdivision development out kind of out in the middle
Speaker 1: of nowhere, and then there's some other houses around it,
Speaker 1: but everything's really spread out. Yeah, there's fields in the
Speaker 1: middle of things. Yeah, I know, it looks like that
Speaker 1: area there they were Coral Drive is right off Equestrian Avenue,
Speaker 1: and it looks like they were plans for maybe bigger,
Speaker 1: bigger developments out there, and that's how they make them usually.
Speaker 1: It hasn't really, it hasn't really happened yet. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it will eventually. Yeah. You know, Actually, this mystery is
Speaker 1: pretty thin, and my script originally was only a page
Speaker 1: and a half long. So I went out to the Carbondale,
Speaker 1: Colorado Chamber of commerce web page, and I cut and
Speaker 1: pasted everything from there into the script. So dramatic reading
Speaker 1: of carbon. Yeah. Well, first I start with a new
Speaker 1: safe way. Oh come on, I'm just kidding. Let's back
Speaker 1: to Morgan. Uh. Morgan Ingram's family does not accept the
Speaker 1: Corner's ruling. They believe that Morgan was murdered. The reason
Speaker 1: they think so is Morgan was stocked by an unknown
Speaker 1: person or person's for about four months before her death. Uh.
Speaker 1: The instance began in August and they continued right up
Speaker 1: until Morgan's death in December. She died in December two uh.
Speaker 1: And they include tapping out of bedroom windows at you
Speaker 1: on the window, throwing small rocks at the window, following
Speaker 1: on her car at least once, if not twice, and
Speaker 1: another scary incident. It was early morning, still dark. Morgan
Speaker 1: had recently gotten a puppy and by the way, I've
Speaker 1: seen pictures of the puppy. Super cute puppy, Yeah, very cute.
Speaker 1: The puppy needed to go outside to do a little business.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what. And the family was a little
Speaker 1: on edge because of all the incidents that had taken place,
Speaker 1: and Morgan's mother, Tony, had suggested that she needed to
Speaker 1: let the puppy out after dark. She just stand in
Speaker 1: the doorway and just let the leash out as far
Speaker 1: as it could go, and the puppy could do his thing.
Speaker 1: And how did she describe it? She said, And then
Speaker 1: you could just reel the puppy in. Yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: so on the morning, Yeah, on the morning of October
Speaker 1: it was it was earlier, so it was still dark outside.
Speaker 1: Morgan was standing in the doorway doing that. She glanced
Speaker 1: to the left and she saw a man dressed entirely
Speaker 1: in black standing in their neighbor's yard, just past the
Speaker 1: low fence, about three ft tall. And needs to say,
Speaker 1: she did reel the puppy and probably leaving a trail
Speaker 1: of urine. Well not probably still yeah, I've read that
Speaker 1: report and um Tony says that he was still urinating
Speaker 1: poor puppy. I don't know what that's like, being drug
Speaker 1: along with you know, I don't want to find out.
Speaker 1: She got herself inside the house and the puppy and
Speaker 1: the puppy, Yeah, but that was that was scary. That
Speaker 1: would I mean, that would scare me, I would imagine, Yeah,
Speaker 1: even if I wasn't super super on edge I think
Speaker 1: if I looked up and saw somebody staring at me
Speaker 1: in all dark while it was dark out in black
Speaker 1: and yeah, I would I would scare me. I would
Speaker 1: just pull up my jammie and open fire. Yeah that's
Speaker 1: because you're a man. Okay. Yeah, back on this, back
Speaker 1: to the stocking incidents began in early August, and after
Speaker 1: that the Ingram started installing those outdoor lights that had
Speaker 1: the motion detectors and the ones I'm talking about, and
Speaker 1: also cameras with like wildlife cameras that have motion detectors. Uh.
Speaker 1: And the lights were going off quite often, which indicates
Speaker 1: either they had intruders on the property or maybe they
Speaker 1: had the sensitivity set too high on the motion detectors,
Speaker 1: or they were pointing them at trees, which yeah, that
Speaker 1: could be best possible to remember. There are lights going
Speaker 1: off a lot. We had those. We had once, you know,
Speaker 1: on the garage one lights. I remember that going off
Speaker 1: a lot when it was like snowing or if it
Speaker 1: was raining too hard. They were in Colorado and it
Speaker 1: was winter when it was raining and then for a
Speaker 1: bit and then snowy. Yeah, I'll tell you this. There's
Speaker 1: one thing that's about these things is when you have
Speaker 1: a neighbor that has one, it's pointed towards your bedroom windows. Worst. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why I know about the one that we had,
Speaker 1: because it was pointed kind of indirectly at my bedroom window. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had one of those years ago. And then, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was coming on all the time when I was
Speaker 1: trying to go to sleep. Eventually the problem got solved itself.
Speaker 1: Somebody apparently shot it out with the twenty two pellet pistol.
Speaker 1: Somebody I don't know who, but yeah, somebody they had.
Speaker 1: They had the lights, and then they also had the cameras.
Speaker 1: The cameras, Yeah, and their carame was would occasionally catch
Speaker 1: a little video of somebody in the driveway or the yard,
Speaker 1: but the video was never good enough to actually identify anybody,
Speaker 1: so the cameras weren't doing them a lot of good.
Speaker 1: There was another interesting instance happened in daylight. Steve an Tony,
Speaker 1: that's Steve an Toni Ingraham, mom and dad were talking
Speaker 1: in the fourier of their house and Steve had his
Speaker 1: back to the front door and Tony was facing the
Speaker 1: front door, and apparently there were windows on either side
Speaker 1: of the front door in the house. Yeah, that's kind
Speaker 1: of a common design, those pre fab houses. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And she saw a person with a white longsleeve shirt
Speaker 1: go dashing across their driveway through the windows and and
Speaker 1: then turn around and went went around the corner and
Speaker 1: between their house and their neighbor's house to the north,
Speaker 1: and then she sets up to Steve, and Steve ran
Speaker 1: to the back of the house where they had these
Speaker 1: sliding last doors to try to try to see who
Speaker 1: it was and maybe go out and even catch them.
Speaker 1: And whoever it was was gone. So another disturbing incident, incident,
Speaker 1: and there were all kinds of innocence. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna list the worth of them. I'm not exaggerating.
Speaker 1: You can find it online. Those are like police reports.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the local police. Yeah, the the Ingram's kept
Speaker 1: the local cops kind of busy. They went out there
Speaker 1: a lot. But there was a pivotal moment. On the
Speaker 1: morning of September one, two thousand eleven. Morgan was home
Speaker 1: alone when she heard somebody working the keypad on the
Speaker 1: front door and they had they had electronic locks on
Speaker 1: both the front and the back doors, you know, and
Speaker 1: you guys, all, I'm sure you know what those are, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you entered the electronic key, the five or six or
Speaker 1: eight digit pin and it unlocks. Yeah. Well, once she
Speaker 1: heard that, she thought it was her mother coming home,
Speaker 1: because her mother had just left to go on a
Speaker 1: run to the bank. But the buttons kept getting pushed
Speaker 1: and the door wouldn't open, so Morgan realized it might
Speaker 1: be the stalker. And now I don't want to question
Speaker 1: Morgan's judgment, but to me, this seems like a great
Speaker 1: time to grab a baseball bat and go into the
Speaker 1: front door. But you think or even just walk to
Speaker 1: the front door and look out the window to see
Speaker 1: who it is that might have been. Yes, this whole
Speaker 1: baseball thing. No, And I'm gonna this may end up
Speaker 1: being one of those episodes where I have to constantly
Speaker 1: remind you that, as a small woman, that's actually a
Speaker 1: very bad idea. But I will continue to remind you
Speaker 1: of that. I can I totally see though. We just
Speaker 1: talked about the fact that there's windows by the front door. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you may as well go up, just go oh, okay, look,
Speaker 1: oh look it's the neighborhood drunk. He's at the wrong
Speaker 1: house again. Or finally, I have a description of what
Speaker 1: this stalker looks like, because up until now I've been
Speaker 1: able to only say it's an unidentified person. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons. Well,
Speaker 1: but on the other hand, I'm gonna do this a
Speaker 1: lot in this episode. Again fair warning. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: I can see, you know, I remember being younger, and
Speaker 1: certainly this is maybe in my earlier teenage years than
Speaker 1: like in my early twenties, but I can remember being
Speaker 1: so scared. Sometimes fear just takes hold and you think,
Speaker 1: I don't want him to know that I'm in here.
Speaker 1: I don't want anybody to know that I'm in here.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna hold up and maybe they'll just go away.
Speaker 1: If I just ignore it, it'll just go away and
Speaker 1: it won't be a problem, and then it will be fine. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that you know this this again, I'm not you know,
Speaker 1: obviously I wasn't there. As far as I know, Morgan
Speaker 1: never reported this directly to the police. This came from
Speaker 1: her mother, Tony. I think we need to clarify now
Speaker 1: that none of almost none of this reporting, at least
Speaker 1: the the initial calls to the police were done by Tony. Yeah,
Speaker 1: her mother always was one that if the cops showed up,
Speaker 1: got the cops here, and then eventually they would talk
Speaker 1: to her. They should also be noted that almost all
Speaker 1: of the contact with the police was not was neither
Speaker 1: on the line or the non emergency line. It was
Speaker 1: through calling people that Tony had contact with in the
Speaker 1: police department. It was very rarely a dispatch. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: she did call dispatch, but communicated a lot via email. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She communicate a lot via text and call an email
Speaker 1: with the police. Yeah. So back to our story here.
Speaker 1: Whoever that was at the front door, he got away unseen.
Speaker 1: When Tony got back, sheally called the sheriff's department. They
Speaker 1: sent somebody over. The deputy's name was Chris Yawns. I
Speaker 1: think that's how that's pronounced. Chris. If you're listening, you know,
Speaker 1: let me know if I pronounced it right or not.
Speaker 1: He noticed a footprint in the dirt under a bathroom window.
Speaker 1: There's three bathrooms in that house that have windows, of
Speaker 1: the total four. They've got a lot of bathrooms in
Speaker 1: that house. Foot house that's pretty decent sized. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: there were three of them, but I'm not sure which
Speaker 1: one it was, but there was a footprint. Later that afternoon,
Speaker 1: the Ingram's grandson, Jared, who I mentioned earlier, and I'm
Speaker 1: not sure he's who was a kid apparently, like I'm
Speaker 1: not sure exactly how old, ten, fifteen, sixteen, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but he came over to the house. He saw the
Speaker 1: footprint and he said that it looked to him like
Speaker 1: it was the soul of an ethnic shoe. And I
Speaker 1: don't know how he managed to do that, but he's like,
Speaker 1: it's not that hard. I mean, some shoes have very
Speaker 1: distinct Well, maybe he had Etney's himself, you know, that's maybe.
Speaker 1: Of course, maybe it was his footprint too. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but uh. Jared was later not long after that, standing
Speaker 1: out by the street and he noticed a neighbor driving by.
Speaker 1: The neighbor was Keenan van Ginkel, who lived at the
Speaker 1: end of the cul de Sac at one to three
Speaker 1: Coral Drive. There. Yeah, he lived with his girlfriend. He
Speaker 1: had moved in with his girlfriend. He wasn't there. I
Speaker 1: think he moved in in June maybe, and and he
Speaker 1: was out. He was there for maybe three or four months, No,
Speaker 1: not really. The house was owned by a guy named Jim.
Speaker 1: Jim Harris his daughter, Brooke Harris, was Keenan's girlfriend. So
Speaker 1: Jared hustled over to Keenan's house when he was getting
Speaker 1: out of his car to ask him if he wanted
Speaker 1: his lawn mode. But his real modive, he said, was
Speaker 1: to look at keenan shoes, and he came back and
Speaker 1: reported today looked exactly like purple. Etney's why he originally
Speaker 1: suspected Keenan. I don't know. Maybe he decided to go
Speaker 1: around and look at everybody in the neighborhood's shoes, you know,
Speaker 1: until he found him Etney's. Yeah, I I don't know.
Speaker 1: They the family seem to be convinced. And again, I,
Speaker 1: as you said, I wasn't there, and I don't want
Speaker 1: to anybody to think that I'm casting any negative information
Speaker 1: on the family, But they seem to be grasping for
Speaker 1: somebody on their street to be the responsible party. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, and I can sort of see that because
Speaker 1: on the one you know, on the one hand, to
Speaker 1: be inconvenient if you're gonna stock somebody to have to
Speaker 1: commute out to the sticks where this little subdivision was,
Speaker 1: so I could see why they might be thinking it's
Speaker 1: somebody on that little because there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: people close by otherwise. But at the same time, with
Speaker 1: what they don't understand about stalkers is that stalkers are
Speaker 1: willing to go to all kinds of inconvenience to obsessively
Speaker 1: go after somebody. So I could totally picture somebody driving
Speaker 1: out there all the time, you know, parking a little
Speaker 1: ways away and hiking in and then just then doing
Speaker 1: this thing and then then leaving again. Yeah. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's the that's a very common characteristic, is just taking
Speaker 1: things to a level that nobody would expect. Yeah, the deal.
Speaker 1: On the other other hand, you know, these incidences vaguely
Speaker 1: correspond with when Keenan moved in. And again, you know,
Speaker 1: since all this information comes from the parents, we don't
Speaker 1: know if Morgan maybe had had some because she had
Speaker 1: been friends with Keenan's or at least casual acquaintances with
Speaker 1: Keenan's girlfriend, And so there's no there's no real sense
Speaker 1: of if the family is trying to kind of protect
Speaker 1: a past that Morgan said, yeah, I had to run
Speaker 1: in or two with this guy that made them suspect
Speaker 1: him more. I don't think that's something that the mom
Speaker 1: Tony would have mentioned because she does try to mean,
Speaker 1: she really does. She makes sure that everybody knows that
Speaker 1: Morgan is like perfect, which I understand the impetus to do.
Speaker 1: But we also, I don't think we would know if
Speaker 1: there had been some past with Keenan to make them.
Speaker 1: I think that he was a good candidate for this stalker. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just candidate. Yeah, I don't think that there was any
Speaker 1: past actually, but yeah, she she had known Brook. There
Speaker 1: were acquaintances, and that's about it. And they hadn't talked
Speaker 1: for months, so that's about They didn't seem to be
Speaker 1: any bad blood between them, Okay, Anyway, I said this
Speaker 1: was a pivotal moment because this apparently is what got
Speaker 1: Keenan on the Angram's radar. I'm not totally sure about that,
Speaker 1: but that this appears to be it. So Tony called
Speaker 1: Deputy Jaunts later that day and told him that a
Speaker 1: neighborhood identified Keenan as a suspect. I guess maybe she
Speaker 1: didn't want to get Jared involved, so she just said
Speaker 1: one of the neighbors said that Keenan would would be
Speaker 1: a likely suspect. It sounds like the rumor mill was
Speaker 1: working overtime in this call to set. There were a
Speaker 1: couple of a couple of big time gossips in this
Speaker 1: little cul de sac. They really were pretty feel like
Speaker 1: that really polluted a lot of what was going on.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and like like like her next door
Speaker 1: neighbor Rhonda in the House of the North. Apparently, apparently
Speaker 1: Tony was busy telling telling Ronda about her suspicions. So
Speaker 1: then Rohnda was spying on Keenan, watching his movements and
Speaker 1: everybody else. Yeah, so it was no, there was no
Speaker 1: secret here. Yeah. So two days later, about nine pm,
Speaker 1: Tony is in her office in a bedroom at the
Speaker 1: front of the house. It's just right off the front
Speaker 1: of the front entrance and Morgan, nobody else was home
Speaker 1: at the time. Somebody tossed a rock against the window.
Speaker 1: Must have apparently been a small rock. She keeps talking
Speaker 1: about rocks. I think I'm thinking more like pebbles, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but somebody and somebody hit the window of the rocks
Speaker 1: was the window of the office, Yeah, the office, which
Speaker 1: was a bed. It's basically a bedroom doubles. Doubles is
Speaker 1: an office. And is that the room that um Morgan
Speaker 1: had been sleeping in? Uh no, No, she was according
Speaker 1: to according to her mother, I've never heard, actually officially
Speaker 1: from Morgan that she was sleeping their parents their parents
Speaker 1: master bedroom closet. Okay, but that's where she was sleeping.
Speaker 1: I thought there was I thought I remembered something about
Speaker 1: an office, but I could be totally wrong. Well, there
Speaker 1: was one incident where she was she came home and
Speaker 1: she was taking a shower in her mother's office. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a bathroom in there, and it might be apparently
Speaker 1: Morgan did not maintain her own bathroom, was in her
Speaker 1: bedroom in tip top shape. Yeah yeah, and so maybe
Speaker 1: the bathtub was just cleaner in the mom's office bathroom,
Speaker 1: and so she decided to go use that one instead. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's about But she never slept in the office, she
Speaker 1: accorded to her mother. She slept in the master bedroom
Speaker 1: closet for a while. Back to the rock throwing incident,
Speaker 1: Tony calls the sheriff's office. They sent a new deputies over.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I want to say to to anybody,
Speaker 1: any of you in the Sheriff's office that all listening,
Speaker 1: pakudos to you guys. You really you really went out
Speaker 1: there a lot. Yeah did your job they did? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they did. Absolutely. There was no oh, come over later.
Speaker 1: They wouldn't took care of it, check it out. No,
Speaker 1: I mean there were there were times when they did it.
Speaker 1: Actually they got a report of an incident. You know.
Speaker 1: There was one time that they came in from two
Speaker 1: different directions, you know, they came in from the outside
Speaker 1: and everything, just in an attempt to catch this mysterious
Speaker 1: perpetrated Yeah. Uh and uh. And then they searched the
Speaker 1: house like two doors down, you know, and they searched
Speaker 1: it more than once. Actually, the lights were on at
Speaker 1: one two three Coral Drive, which is where Keenan lives.
Speaker 1: So the deputies went over there to see if anybody
Speaker 1: had seen anything. Brooke Harris and that Keena's girlfriend answers
Speaker 1: the door. Her dad was not home, but she was
Speaker 1: asked if she had seen any suspicious activity. She said
Speaker 1: she hadn't. Um. She also said Keenan was in the house,
Speaker 1: but that he was asleep. They asked if she would
Speaker 1: wake him up, and she didn't want to because apparently
Speaker 1: he needed to sleep because he had to get up
Speaker 1: at like and then go to work at two am. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I had a job at a grocery store to shift
Speaker 1: was generally two am to ten am. Yeah, working your
Speaker 1: grocery stores are can be brutal on you mean, just
Speaker 1: because of the shot the hours that are required. Yeah,
Speaker 1: working working that graveyard shift is just tough no matter what.
Speaker 1: After the deputy has left, the most activated lights at
Speaker 1: the end of his house went on at least seven
Speaker 1: times that night, which is according to a diary that
Speaker 1: Tony kep and she wrote, quote we assumed the per
Speaker 1: was angry about almost getting caught unquote. So I want
Speaker 1: to point something out or make a comment on something,
Speaker 1: which is I have looked at the digital versions that
Speaker 1: she has made of her diaries of the lights on
Speaker 1: the property, because it was pretty extensive, the locations and
Speaker 1: times and the lights would go off. She would have
Speaker 1: it at one, one thirty, two, three, four or five six,
Speaker 1: install an app on her phone that tracked every single
Speaker 1: time the lights went off. She had comments on them.
Speaker 1: That was the thing that made me think that part
Speaker 1: of this is she was waking up every time the
Speaker 1: freaking light was going on, which means that she wasn't sleeping.
Speaker 1: Don't make any of them were sleeping, which really well,
Speaker 1: it has an effect on your your perceptions and your
Speaker 1: judgment good that it does seem like her judgment was
Speaker 1: not quite right. It's gat least questionable. Yeah, there's some
Speaker 1: questionable judgment here. Yeah. Uh. Keenan was the family's prime suspect,
Speaker 1: of course, but their suspicions were amplified when Morgan was
Speaker 1: followed one night in her car when she was driving home,
Speaker 1: and she slowed down to try to get the car
Speaker 1: to pass her, but it didn't pass her. And then
Speaker 1: a third car pulls up behind that car, and uh.
Speaker 1: In the illumination of the headlights of the third car,
Speaker 1: Morgan's could see the outline of a driver, which appeared
Speaker 1: to be a male of about Keenan's height and build.
Speaker 1: And then she turned down Highway one hundred, which leads
Speaker 1: to equestrian Way. Yeah, she turned right on the equestrian
Speaker 1: way and the car went on on Highway one hundred
Speaker 1: and she looked back and she noticed it was a
Speaker 1: small green car, which is like the car that Keenan drove.
Speaker 1: So who more suspicions the the next the next suspicious
Speaker 1: thing that happened. Uh, that's in the October twenty nine
Speaker 1: entry into her diary. And this stuff is all available online.
Speaker 1: By the way, you can see all this stuff. Tony
Speaker 1: wrote that somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody who
Speaker 1: knew somebody. And I don't know if you guy saw
Speaker 1: this not, but it was quite a long chain of
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah it is. But apparently Keenan had
Speaker 1: told someone that he had a girlfriend in Carbondale named Morgan,
Speaker 1: and he was not living at one two three. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was no longer living in He had broken up.
Speaker 1: He and broken broken up at this point exactly, and
Speaker 1: he moved out. Yeah. So obviously that's kind of a
Speaker 1: stock right thing to say. I've got a girlfriend named
Speaker 1: Morgan and she lives in Carbondale, and there's only one Morgan,
Speaker 1: of course in Carbondale, and Carbondale is not a really
Speaker 1: big town. Yeah, but Morgan is also not the most
Speaker 1: unique name, not entirely now, actually it's it's it isn't
Speaker 1: totally unique. There was another Morgan in Carbondale. And I
Speaker 1: want to say at this point that, just in case
Speaker 1: you get bored and turn off our podcast and listen
Speaker 1: to the rest of it, I really need to tell
Speaker 1: you that the case against Keenan was never very strong,
Speaker 1: and there wasn't need another Morgan. In Carbondale, and she
Speaker 1: actually was Keenan's girlfriend at the time, and the police
Speaker 1: actually checked this out and they got they got a
Speaker 1: ton of information from him that corroborated that it would
Speaker 1: have been nearly impossible for him to have been the
Speaker 1: responsible party. Well, there was, there was some information there, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was. There were just times when incidents happened when
Speaker 1: he was either at work or he was out of state. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so so that's presumably out of state. Well yeah,
Speaker 1: this whole his family could allied and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But because a short story is he is not as
Speaker 1: stalker he as everybody has been left to believe it
Speaker 1: by this point. Yeah, I mean, there's there's various schools
Speaker 1: have thought on that. Of course, Tony Ingram believes he's
Speaker 1: a serial killer, and we'll talk more about that later.
Speaker 1: But yeah, she thinks that he's a serial killer. Other
Speaker 1: people think that he's innocent. Does she really think he's
Speaker 1: a serious serial killer in training I believe serial killer
Speaker 1: in the making words, yes, yeah, thank you. I knew
Speaker 1: that it was something along the lines of he's currently
Speaker 1: using his training wheels. Yeah, yeah, he is, but he's
Speaker 1: he said that, he said, he said that at least
Speaker 1: one police or she did. She said that to at
Speaker 1: least one police officer. She also to that same police
Speaker 1: officer put it in an email. Is that Glassmyer? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Detective glass Meyer. Another another intriguing incident November two, there
Speaker 1: were footprints in the snow which apparently came from Lacole
Speaker 1: to Sack and circled their house and then left again,
Speaker 1: And so that creeped them out understandably. Yeah, although you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's might be reasons why somebody came
Speaker 1: through their yard too, but you know, chasing a dog,
Speaker 1: kids playing, yeah, I mean, who knows all the way
Speaker 1: circling a house though, I don't know. Yeah, have you
Speaker 1: ever seen seven and eight year old kids just run? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But presumably hell mell, But presumably you look at the
Speaker 1: footprints of a seven or eight year old and think,
Speaker 1: oh kids, You don't think wow, creepy stalker, dude. I
Speaker 1: remember looking at the map that they drew of that
Speaker 1: that incident they had. They had mapped out the path
Speaker 1: that this person took, and it started on the street
Speaker 1: if I remember right, and then looped around clockwise around
Speaker 1: their house, yeah, and then came back to almost the
Speaker 1: same spot, almost like somebody was not necessarily casing the joint.
Speaker 1: But there were the footsteps weren't in a perfect arc
Speaker 1: or a circle around him. There's like another side meander here.
Speaker 1: So it makes me think that somebody was running after
Speaker 1: something or chasing something, necessarily checking out the house or
Speaker 1: casing it. That that's possible too. And I and from
Speaker 1: the pattern that they drew, I'm not even too I'm
Speaker 1: not even sure that it was one set of footprints. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I really can't tell, and I'm sure it probably wasn't actually,
Speaker 1: but you know people go out walking in the snow.
Speaker 1: Is this a Winnie the Pooh thing? Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's one person and I'm following his tracks. Now
Speaker 1: there's two piglets. Now there's four pooh because they're following
Speaker 1: their own tracks. Oh, I got you. Neither of you
Speaker 1: remember this. It's been so long since I read one
Speaker 1: of the Pooh I don't remember anything. So disappointed. I
Speaker 1: am so going to get to the reference kudos this week. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: when I share all of our fans are really in
Speaker 1: the winning. Let's let's go back a little bit in
Speaker 1: time and on September, Detective Glassmyer, Robert Glassmire of the
Speaker 1: Garfield County Sheriff's Office. Who is he. He's the one
Speaker 1: who's been kind of the lead investigator. Yeah, yeah, he did.
Speaker 1: He's of the report fame most of it. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was some of some other stuff written other reports written
Speaker 1: by other officers, but he's written yeah. Uh. He installed
Speaker 1: two wildlife cameras on the north side of that the
Speaker 1: Ingram's house, and that's the Morgan's bedroom was in the
Speaker 1: northwest corner of the house, and the north side would
Speaker 1: be the side yard, so that is the obvious places
Speaker 1: for the stalker to hang out and throw a rock
Speaker 1: setter window. Right at this time, Tony was calling an
Speaker 1: emailing Glassmier repeatedly saying that lights were coming on, somebody
Speaker 1: was scratching at Morgan's windows and et cetera. And uh.
Speaker 1: October second, Detective Glassmyer changed the memory cards and reviewed
Speaker 1: but was on the ones that have been in the camera.
Speaker 1: Found no images of anything. But of course maybe Keenan
Speaker 1: or whoever the purp was was just really clever and
Speaker 1: switched the memory cars and the cameras. I also think,
Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen trail cams that take pictures of
Speaker 1: nothing or just you know, empty trails. So it's you know,
Speaker 1: the stalk was broken, and that's what triggers for the
Speaker 1: stalker is moving fast enough that you know the camera
Speaker 1: doesn't turn on. I don't know, Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just I mean he actually went back and he
Speaker 1: wants to service those things pretty regularly, and he never
Speaker 1: he never found a single useful image on them. Ever,
Speaker 1: I wanted this one wildy stalker. And then on the
Speaker 1: two or seventh, detective glass Binder and another detective walked
Speaker 1: onto the property, which means they did not parked their
Speaker 1: cop car out in front of the property on the street. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would have. They parked elsewhere, like I'm not sure
Speaker 1: exactly where. And they walked onto the property through the back,
Speaker 1: over a berm and hidden the bushes. Uh. Staked it
Speaker 1: out from eleven pm tolve am and saw nothing. What
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't a stocker. It just mean
Speaker 1: that needs a stockard. They weren't there on a night. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't happen to show up. What they did notice
Speaker 1: is at the backyard, motion activated light turn on and
Speaker 1: off two or three times, and uh, and there was
Speaker 1: nothing going on. It just came on on its own,
Speaker 1: or maybe because of a tree movie or something like that.
Speaker 1: I just watched the episode of Sherlock the Hound of
Speaker 1: Basketball Bills episode of the New Sherlock UM and that
Speaker 1: happens in that too. The light just goes on and off.
Speaker 1: But the guy's so paranoid that you know, of course,
Speaker 1: he's like freaked out and screaming and has a gun.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, I really go on and off.
Speaker 1: Or it was an invisible hound. Maybe the stalker has
Speaker 1: an invisibility cloak. It could be. In fact, he probably does.
Speaker 1: We talk about that next week. I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 1: need to watch Sherlock. I haven't seen that. I haven't.
Speaker 1: I'll give it to you. He's Devin Jur only sources
Speaker 1: of the television show. Okay, that's it, then I'll take
Speaker 1: it anyway. That night, after they left, at two thirty am,
Speaker 1: Glassmary got a text from Tony saying the backyard light
Speaker 1: was turning on and off, and Glassmar explained that he's
Speaker 1: seen it going on and off himself and that it
Speaker 1: was it was probably nothing. Probably needed to calibrate your light.
Speaker 1: Time goes on. Tony kept reporting incident and incidents, and
Speaker 1: Glassmarre kept checking his wildlife camps. Never got images of anything,
Speaker 1: as I said, and the Engram has got a few
Speaker 1: murky images on their cameras, but never so they set
Speaker 1: up cameras too. Yeah, they had where those trail cams
Speaker 1: or were they cameras that they were streaming, were like
Speaker 1: wildlife camps, but apparently they took they took video instead
Speaker 1: of instead of snaps. It's yeah, it was. It sounded
Speaker 1: like it was a video camera that obviously was motion activated.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a high grade one, but they were like
Speaker 1: low grade surveillance cameras. Because I do remember reading her
Speaker 1: often saying I was staying up all night watching the cameras.
Speaker 1: So it made me think, yeah, they had a fee
Speaker 1: and there they were bears. Yeah, okay, so they've got
Speaker 1: some pictures. So yeah, they've got several cameras all around
Speaker 1: the house. And then there's two sheriff's cameras there, so
Speaker 1: that that place was just totally covered. Well, and on
Speaker 1: the on those that that front camera that's where the
Speaker 1: infamous stalker photo comes from, there's this they capture this picture.
Speaker 1: Apparently the police had just been there. Well, it's a
Speaker 1: series of pictures, is it that they always post. It's
Speaker 1: like three in succession, and the two of them are
Speaker 1: of the cops. Right, okay, now cops ar the cops leaving,
Speaker 1: and then this other and then this other. This person
Speaker 1: is in their driveway and is turning their heads. So
Speaker 1: it's it's not that great of an image because it's
Speaker 1: all blurred out, and Tony and Steve are saying that
Speaker 1: you can see that the tail lights of the police
Speaker 1: car in that that image, So that's how soon this
Speaker 1: person comes on their property. It's like he was hiding
Speaker 1: right nearby. And yeah, because that's that's one of the
Speaker 1: things that they talk about, is this person was he's
Speaker 1: there and was fooling the cops and was getting their
Speaker 1: jollies off of just messing with everybody. Um, but their
Speaker 1: cameras obviously weren't that great. And I really, I mean again,
Speaker 1: with a lot of things, and I'm the jerk who
Speaker 1: does this. I questioned a lot of the stuff that
Speaker 1: is presented as proof because it seems a little soft
Speaker 1: to me. But but that's one of the ones that
Speaker 1: you see on the internet a lot is that this
Speaker 1: is this is the cops arriving and leaving, and then
Speaker 1: there's the stalker in the footage, which is one of
Speaker 1: the only images of a person that we have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not much out there in terms of the imagery
Speaker 1: for considering how many cameras were on the property. He
Speaker 1: was a clever little fiend. If yeah, if indeed he exists,
Speaker 1: well there's that. Yeah. And see about this time, Keenan
Speaker 1: began getting threats on Facebook. That would be in November
Speaker 1: from a guy named Danny Rodan, who was either Morgan's
Speaker 1: boyfriend at the time or trying to be her boyfriend.
Speaker 1: Also in November. This was on the sixteenth, Keenan voluntarily
Speaker 1: came into the Sheriff's office because apparently his dad contacted
Speaker 1: the Sheriff's His dad's name is Wade, and he had
Speaker 1: heard these all these stories about how Keena was being
Speaker 1: accused of being a stock had reached him. And well
Speaker 1: also the Sheriff's actually went by where Keenan worked to
Speaker 1: ask questions about him and try to find out, you know,
Speaker 1: if he worked there and when, what his ships were,
Speaker 1: everything and everything like that, trying to eliminate him were
Speaker 1: profuly was a suspect and so and Wade also apparently
Speaker 1: worked at the same place, so they you know, he
Speaker 1: was obviously concerned wanted to know what this was about.
Speaker 1: So Wade and Keenan went in for an interview in
Speaker 1: the sixteenth Keenan said he didn't know Morgan. When he
Speaker 1: was told about the various footprints that they had found
Speaker 1: in the in the dirt and the snow, he offered
Speaker 1: to turn over a pair of his shoes for comparison. Uh.
Speaker 1: He also volunteered to take a polygraph tests. Cooperative this
Speaker 1: can be oh yeah, yeah, he was very cooperative. He
Speaker 1: didn't lawyer upper anything like that. Lastmyer also wanted to
Speaker 1: see Keenan's work records as a way to maybe eliminate
Speaker 1: him as a suspect, and Keenan's signed a consent for
Speaker 1: him available online. Yeah, and they collected all of a
Speaker 1: huge ton of his time cards. Yeah, they're out there
Speaker 1: and they're out there to look at. So. Yeah. They
Speaker 1: also had another another image video somebody walking out their driveway,
Speaker 1: and I had just not the same one that you
Speaker 1: were talking about, a different one. Ok. Yeah, somebody actually
Speaker 1: like like pulled into their driveway, got out, walked up
Speaker 1: to the house from turn and walked away. Again. They
Speaker 1: thought that was suspicious. But again they couldn't see they
Speaker 1: couldn't see who who it was, crappy cameras they had.
Speaker 1: So Glasmyer made reference to that video when he was
Speaker 1: when he was talking to Keenan, tried to raddle his
Speaker 1: cage a little bit and said he sent the video
Speaker 1: to the cb I, which is the Colorado Bureau of
Speaker 1: Investigation for enhancement, even though the cb I, I I think,
Speaker 1: had already told him that there was no way they
Speaker 1: could enhance it. You can't enhance that stuff. You can't
Speaker 1: just zoom it enhanced. No. That's the whole thing is
Speaker 1: that everybody seems to believe that you can just say
Speaker 1: a computer enhanced, you know, and and the computer can
Speaker 1: extract information that doesn't exist it just as you I know,
Speaker 1: I know, and but but you know, of course a
Speaker 1: lot of people don't understand this. They watched this crap
Speaker 1: in the movies on TV where they just pour more
Speaker 1: pixels onto the screen and it it cleans it up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so and so Keenan was like, oh, well, you're
Speaker 1: still not going to find my face in there, basically
Speaker 1: what he said, and so what so he was either
Speaker 1: either totally in a centator or he was a sociopath.
Speaker 1: You guys decide, we'll present the information. Yeah, you'll, you'll
Speaker 1: figure it out. And at this point the terror continued
Speaker 1: on for two more weeks. Um then on the evening
Speaker 1: of Thursday, December one, Wherego was out for a while
Speaker 1: with Danny Roden. He's the guy that was sending the
Speaker 1: Facebook friend maybe maybe boyfriend maybe not. Yeah, I read
Speaker 1: the you guys probably read the face book exchange, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I stopped. I mean I read the first two pages
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, I read some of it, and then
Speaker 1: I just gave up on it. Yeah, I read the
Speaker 1: whole thing that. Yeah, it's it's, you know, typical Internet stuff,
Speaker 1: arguing dudes in the early twenties arguing over a girl
Speaker 1: kicking rich Man. Yeah, totally, yeah, totally, yeah, try it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my botter find you before the cops. Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously we read more than we want to admit. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He parted ways with her, and he reported later that
Speaker 1: she was actually in a good mood when when they
Speaker 1: parted ways. But something must have happened between then and
Speaker 1: when she got home at nine pm, because her parents
Speaker 1: said that she was in a foul mood for some reason.
Speaker 1: But we're going to also taken Tony's car without permission.
Speaker 1: And she also had not responded to any of the
Speaker 1: text messages that her parents sent to her, so Tony
Speaker 1: was angry with her for that. And so I remember
Speaker 1: being and you know, going to see my boyfriend when
Speaker 1: I was nine in twenty and being in a good
Speaker 1: mood when I was with him, and then I left
Speaker 1: and I was like, I go home now and deal
Speaker 1: with my parents. My parents are awesome for the record,
Speaker 1: as an older person now, but you know, you just
Speaker 1: kind of getting that like, oh God, or maybe it's
Speaker 1: even like oh God, I gotta go back to that house.
Speaker 1: And Morgan had been a student and she had essentially
Speaker 1: just dropped her studies at that point, whether it was
Speaker 1: from what was going on at home or just a
Speaker 1: shift in her interests, Like it's it's one of those
Speaker 1: things where you go home and it's I have all
Speaker 1: that crap to do and I just don't want to
Speaker 1: be here, and mom and down they're gonna harp on
Speaker 1: me for not getting my stuff done because I'm a
Speaker 1: college kid living at home. Yeah, I know, it might
Speaker 1: it might be that she was twenty years old, still
Speaker 1: living at home, and she just didn't really enjoy it.
Speaker 1: You know, I wouldn't. Yeah, no, most of us don't
Speaker 1: or wouldn't. But well, anyway, so they're both they're both
Speaker 1: in add moods. Tony is angry. They had an argument
Speaker 1: but which culminated with Morgan calling Tony a bad word. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there you go, also means female dog. Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1: Apparently that was unusual from Oregon. Then she went to
Speaker 1: her bedroom and shut the door. Tony knocked on the door,
Speaker 1: said she wanted to talk, and Morgan told her to
Speaker 1: go away, and then Steve, her dad, went in and
Speaker 1: they had a little talk for about fifteen minutes, which
Speaker 1: apparently ended on a good note, which is good because
Speaker 1: they would never talk again. Yea, yeah, because Morgan. Morgan
Speaker 1: was found dead in her bed the next morning, and
Speaker 1: she had her clothes on. She had taken her shoes off,
Speaker 1: but otherwise was fully clothed. And uh. An autopsy and
Speaker 1: lab tests revealed extremely high levels of ab a trip
Speaker 1: to lean in her system, which is a drug for
Speaker 1: the treatment of anxiety that I don't know if I
Speaker 1: mentioned this before, and several drug yeah, yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: but no pills were found in your stomach. Also, her
Speaker 1: driver's license was missing from her purse, and some of
Speaker 1: her jewelry was gone. As I said earlier, Eventually the
Speaker 1: coroner ruled the death suicide by drug overdose. But Tony
Speaker 1: Ingram's theory in the case, it's a little different. Let's see,
Speaker 1: she and her husband believe that Morgan was murdered by
Speaker 1: fire stockers. By the time of Morgan's death, they suspected
Speaker 1: that Brooke Harris was also a part of the stock
Speaker 1: and conspiracy. Originally they thought it was just Keenan, but
Speaker 1: they later came to believe it was Brooke also. And
Speaker 1: they believed that Brooke and or Keen and concealed themselves
Speaker 1: in their backyard and the bushes are somewhere and observes
Speaker 1: them keying the code into the back door and then
Speaker 1: knowing the code. On late late December one or in
Speaker 1: the week early hours of December two, they gained access
Speaker 1: to that back door, went into Morgan's bedroom and subdued
Speaker 1: her and administered a fatal dose of liquid and a
Speaker 1: trip to Lene, which you can get online with even
Speaker 1: without a prescription, either through injection or by forcing Morgan
Speaker 1: to drink it. That I mentioned that amate trip to
Speaker 1: is a date rape drug. I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: Well it is according to Tony Ingram. Yeah. Uh so,
Speaker 1: when Morgan was sufficiently out of it, Keenan raped her,
Speaker 1: and then apparently Keenan and Brooke put Morgan's pants back
Speaker 1: on her and left the same way they came in,
Speaker 1: of course, stopping to grab her driver's license and her
Speaker 1: jewelry it's trophies. Yeah, and uh so, our that's our
Speaker 1: mystery here is did she commit suicide? And that's Morgan
Speaker 1: that is was this an accidental overdose? Or was she murdered? Well,
Speaker 1: there's a few theories. The first theory, well, I call hell, yeah,
Speaker 1: she was murdered. Um. The the Ingram's actually seemed to
Speaker 1: originally have had theory that she was like murdered by
Speaker 1: murdered by fright. Uh and then they scared to death?
Speaker 1: Yeah apparently or or she or she did commit suicide
Speaker 1: it was because she was just living in so much terror.
Speaker 1: Well that is not so upsurd to me, but no
Speaker 1: can talk about that in a little bit. I can
Speaker 1: understand why they would feel that way. Yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: that way. But the other one is that the stocker.
Speaker 1: So that's that that murdered. That thing is that stock
Speaker 1: had been a less such a living hell. She she
Speaker 1: killed herself, which means that her stockers were the killers.
Speaker 1: Uh and the ignorance have there been very critical law
Speaker 1: enforcement for not investigating the crime. There's a long quote
Speaker 1: which I won't quote you here, but go to their
Speaker 1: web page. It's called Morgan Ingram dot com and they
Speaker 1: will list all of their other agrievances. But here's here's
Speaker 1: just an opposite of it. There's been no investigation UM
Speaker 1: into her death, nor the stocking. Jewelry was stolen from
Speaker 1: her room, her bottom bed sheet, pajamas, driver's lasses, and
Speaker 1: more were taken that she was killed, but no investigation.
Speaker 1: A year after her death, we would learn that a
Speaker 1: date raped cocktail was put into her stomach after she
Speaker 1: was dead, but still no investigation. Two years after her death,
Speaker 1: we learned that her body showed evidence of being assaulted, redressed,
Speaker 1: and posed after she was dead. Still no investigation. So
Speaker 1: this is this is the family. This is um You
Speaker 1: know me paraphrasing what the family said on their website,
Speaker 1: which is strange because when you read the correspondence from
Speaker 1: the family to the cops. They are so thankful for
Speaker 1: everything that the police are doing for them, because the
Speaker 1: police were going to some pretty big lengths to try
Speaker 1: to help these people, and then suddenly they turned around
Speaker 1: and they are ultra critical of their complete her lack
Speaker 1: of motivation to do anything the whole time. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: I think the police, if there have been any evidence,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that they would have been happy
Speaker 1: to follow up on it. Yeah, I'm sure of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the problems with this murder theory is there's no
Speaker 1: physical evidence. Her bedroom was in disarray. There's clothes and
Speaker 1: stuff strewn everywhere, which could be evidence of a struggle,
Speaker 1: except her bathroom was the same way she had been
Speaker 1: using one of the other bedrooms in the house. It
Speaker 1: was also in total disarray. One of the police, um,
Speaker 1: what do they call it their their summations after the fact,
Speaker 1: I can't think of the phrase he was saying that
Speaker 1: he actually used the term in the port that is,
Speaker 1: how how chaotic that room was. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think men often think that women are like very clean
Speaker 1: turns out when we're in our early twenties and and
Speaker 1: our teenage years. No, you're like a fifteen year old boy.
Speaker 1: It's worse because there's makeup and there's like twenty times
Speaker 1: more clothes, and it's just awful. I mean, I was
Speaker 1: a slob. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not going to make
Speaker 1: any judgments about her because I'm not the tip I'm
Speaker 1: not the tidiest housekeeper myself. But the sheer amount of
Speaker 1: stuff that everybody reported being strewn about, oh yeah, they
Speaker 1: said it was just a mess. Yeah, but not not
Speaker 1: likely to be from a struggle. Uh. There were also
Speaker 1: no marks in her body, no signs, you know, no,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the corner is going to look at
Speaker 1: her over very carefully. Yeah, because she's twenty years old
Speaker 1: and she's dead. I mean, so you're definitely gonna look
Speaker 1: for any signs of violence, her foul play, and she
Speaker 1: was examined carefully. There were no puncture marks, no bruises,
Speaker 1: no scratches, nothing, absolutely nothing, no outward signs of anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously no signs of rape. Obviously that would be pretty
Speaker 1: obvious if that had happened, right, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: say yes to that. Yeah. I don't think that's always
Speaker 1: as obvious as one might be led to believe. But
Speaker 1: I also think that sometimes the corner has to be
Speaker 1: looking for that. So I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: be on the bandwagon. I don't think she was raped.
Speaker 1: I'm just to that. Yeah, it's going to be obvious statement. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess there are ways you could have
Speaker 1: There are ways you could have concealed it. Who knows.
Speaker 1: It's also I think a lot of people underestimate how
Speaker 1: hard it is to redress a sleeping, unconscious body, dead weight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's hard enough to dress a live person's
Speaker 1: trying to help you. How many times you've tried to
Speaker 1: dress a dead body? I have not ever, but I
Speaker 1: do have a lot of experience dressing live bodies who
Speaker 1: are trying to help you, and it's not easy. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they're just like, no, yeah, sixteen pounds or how much
Speaker 1: your toddler ways I don't know obviously, but probably thirty.
Speaker 1: But the point is, yeah, I would not be hard
Speaker 1: to I mean it would. I think you. I think
Speaker 1: that the police would be able to say, Okay, there's
Speaker 1: something off about this, particularly if it was you know,
Speaker 1: twenty year old girl in two thousand eleven. Jeans are tight, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and I agree Morgan did have a prescription for amateripolians,
Speaker 1: I think, I said, but in a bottle was found
Speaker 1: in your room. It had twelve tablets in it. You
Speaker 1: know what percentage of the pills that was? Like? Was
Speaker 1: that a small amount of the total prescription? I'm assuming
Speaker 1: this prescription was that, you know what, thirty pills, probably,
Speaker 1: I mean, but I could have been for a larger amount.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I really now. Typically when I get
Speaker 1: a prescription, that's usually thirty pills. It's an ongoing Sometimes
Speaker 1: I'll get fifty. Yeah, I was gonna something I've been
Speaker 1: on for a long time, so I looked up amateurplane
Speaker 1: and it really depends on the frequency of the dosage,
Speaker 1: and then that of course dictates the strength of the dosage.
Speaker 1: Once a day is going to be probably stronger pill
Speaker 1: than somebody who has to take three times a day,
Speaker 1: and that's going to influence how many pills you get
Speaker 1: and for how long you're gonna be taking them. I mean, again,
Speaker 1: it's an ongoing thing. You figure, Okay, let's just presume
Speaker 1: three a day. Thirty something sounds right, But I don't
Speaker 1: know if you're probably gonna get ninety at a time,
Speaker 1: and you don't want to be refilling it everything. Well,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. I don't know. I mean, she had
Speaker 1: just recently been put on the medication. It wasn't as
Speaker 1: if it was something that she had been taking for years.
Speaker 1: And then, yeah, it's probably a smaller That's why I'm
Speaker 1: saying it was probably a smaller amount. But I think
Speaker 1: it was twenty and I don't think their parents reported
Speaker 1: that she didn't actually like taking it and she didn't
Speaker 1: take it if she didn't have to, which is funny
Speaker 1: because that conflicts with some other things that I read
Speaker 1: in regards to the dosages that she was self administering
Speaker 1: for some of her medication for for like purposes. But okay,
Speaker 1: but let's be fair. Just because she was self administering
Speaker 1: other doses of other medications doesn't mean that she would
Speaker 1: have done the same with this, because the way that
Speaker 1: different medications affect you, if this one is causing her
Speaker 1: to have some no asia or disassociate or whatever, she's
Speaker 1: going to be less likely to want to take this
Speaker 1: than other ones that are affecting her in a positive
Speaker 1: That is true if she's experiencing that, but it also
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that she couldn't have been upping her dose
Speaker 1: on her for what I was talking about. For though,
Speaker 1: the things that she was taking is she was on
Speaker 1: Gaba penton uh Gaba penton, which is um it's an
Speaker 1: epilepsy or a seizure medication, which I guess she had
Speaker 1: had for a long time. The medication, not seizures. Correct
Speaker 1: the medication, and Steve apparently was the one who would
Speaker 1: give it to her. Accept that. At one point after
Speaker 1: her death, he had reported to one of the police
Speaker 1: officers that I, let's just say she was supposed to
Speaker 1: be taking one every twelve hours or something, she was
Speaker 1: taking instead of one at a time, she tripled the
Speaker 1: dose and she was taking three of them at a
Speaker 1: time and at the same interval or she's a normal interval.
Speaker 1: She had just decided for whatever reason, she was upping
Speaker 1: her dosage. Now I don't know what the reason or
Speaker 1: cause of any of that is and what the implications are.
Speaker 1: I mean, medication overdoses are bad and they mix weird,
Speaker 1: but it's just when she starts upping, upping one makes
Speaker 1: me wonder if she's upping them all maybe, I um,
Speaker 1: and I don't know what the side effects of that
Speaker 1: is there are because maybe maybe that I've heard reports
Speaker 1: that she was using some meds for recreational use um
Speaker 1: and that's not on herlither yeah, and so no, it's not.
Speaker 1: And she also had some other recreational drugs she was taking.
Speaker 1: I just I'm sorry. I just looked up gab pentum
Speaker 1: and it treats nerve pain, so it is an anti convulsant. So,
Speaker 1: but it also treats nerve pain, which means that dolls pain,
Speaker 1: which means it's a pain killer, which is probably why
Speaker 1: her father was the one who was trying to administer
Speaker 1: it to her. But also if you took a couple
Speaker 1: of those, I can imagine that that would um, that
Speaker 1: would zown you out a little bit. Yeah, it might
Speaker 1: be something that's I mean, there are certain medications that
Speaker 1: it's like there's no recreational validity to that drug at all,
Speaker 1: and then there are others that do have those side
Speaker 1: effects or those effects. But damn it, again, I feel
Speaker 1: like the jerk here because that immediately makes me wonder,
Speaker 1: what are her parents not telling us, Like again, they
Speaker 1: make her just sound like she's this perfect angel, and
Speaker 1: yet there's these signs of possibly larger and other things
Speaker 1: going on that we're not being told about. So do
Speaker 1: we want to put a pin in this and finish
Speaker 1: them and then we'll talk about other stuff. So there
Speaker 1: were no pills of the Yeah, there were no pills
Speaker 1: in your stomach in the autopsy, you know, they looked
Speaker 1: at the contents of her stomach obviously, and they didn't
Speaker 1: see any pills in there. Although there's and and the
Speaker 1: parents are big on this, they're they're they're like, wow,
Speaker 1: she had these pills in her bedroom that she could
Speaker 1: have taken commit suicide. But no pills were found in
Speaker 1: your stomach, So that's suspicious. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: her stalkers or stalker could have gotten some of this
Speaker 1: liquid am trip to Leane and then somehow introduced it
Speaker 1: into her body, either to a hypodermic or by forcing
Speaker 1: or to swallow it and etcetera, etcetera. So that proves
Speaker 1: in their mind that it was probably murder. Did you
Speaker 1: see the quantity what's that? Did you see the quantity
Speaker 1: that's listed from the medical examiner of how much she
Speaker 1: had in her Oh yeah, it was. It was a
Speaker 1: very high level. And the mill leaters, Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that was it was really high. And they eventually revisited
Speaker 1: the case a little bit. They actually because they looked
Speaker 1: at the contents of her stomach. Well, I think the
Speaker 1: pills just dissolved and so, but but they they actually
Speaker 1: had the contents of her stomach in storage, and so
Speaker 1: they got it back out, sent into a lab, looked
Speaker 1: at it, and what they found in there was basically
Speaker 1: in her the equivalent of about eighteen tablets of am
Speaker 1: in her stomach. In your stomach, she's just not in pillform. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it dissolved, because you've got all this acid. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if you noticed just a lot of
Speaker 1: pills that some of the pills that I take, I
Speaker 1: put them on my tongue and the immediately start. I
Speaker 1: was just I was just looking up the dissolved times
Speaker 1: and someone and I this is literally a cursory Google search,
Speaker 1: So please don't, you know, crucify me for this. But
Speaker 1: somebody was saying that those gelatine tabs that you fill up,
Speaker 1: you know, the little capsules, are like an hour max
Speaker 1: to dissolve. So she would have had to have been
Speaker 1: alive for an hour or at least her Yeah, she
Speaker 1: couldn't would have been It doesn't go neutral with YEA
Speaker 1: believe it or not. Yeah, so it's reasonable to assume
Speaker 1: that in sometime in the hours that you know, transpired
Speaker 1: between taking pills and they would have totally dissolved. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. So that's the end of the murder theory.
Speaker 1: It's not really Yeah, and oh yeah, there's a dog
Speaker 1: in the house. Yeah, we're talking about the puppy. Yeah. Cute, Yeah,
Speaker 1: super cute puppy. The dog would have barked, don't you think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to a major struggle. Yeah, a major struggle. And Steve
Speaker 1: and Tony seemed to not be sleeping well as is.
Speaker 1: You know, lights were waking them up. I can only
Speaker 1: imagine what a struggle would Yeah, you would think, huh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: This is another interesting thing about this is you think
Speaker 1: they would have bumped their security a bit, like maybe
Speaker 1: an alarmed or an actual physical key. Yeah for the door,
Speaker 1: no more keypad. Yeah I'm leaving that alone. Yeah. Or
Speaker 1: if nothing else, you you put a pile of you
Speaker 1: stack up a pile of empty beer cans by all
Speaker 1: the doors, you know. Yeah, every night, honey, I can't
Speaker 1: go up bed. I haven't armed the security system. Yeah. Okay,
Speaker 1: so next there we've kind of been talking around, right, Yeah, suicide. Um,
Speaker 1: did I imagine that amateripoline is used to treat I
Speaker 1: think I did depression and anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Her parents
Speaker 1: did report that she had been a little down before
Speaker 1: her death, and she'd lost interest in some of her
Speaker 1: user activities. She was she was playing the piano, she
Speaker 1: was into dancing and stuff. She was taking classes to
Speaker 1: be a yoga instructor. Yeah, I mean, she done a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of art courses. Of course. I said she
Speaker 1: preferred not to take the a trip line, but she
Speaker 1: did have it handy, and it certainly would be a
Speaker 1: handy way to kill yourself if you chose to. Again,
Speaker 1: I talked about the context of her stomach, which was
Speaker 1: the equivalent of about eighteen milliground pills that they have
Speaker 1: a triple line, which if she had a bottle that
Speaker 1: had a thirty eighteen equals twelve, which is how many
Speaker 1: there were exactly. So, although that would mean that she
Speaker 1: didn't ever take any of them before this one night,
Speaker 1: well yeah, so she wouldn't have known if she didn't
Speaker 1: like to take it. Yeah, Now, well, she would have
Speaker 1: been refilled before. I mean, it's like she might have.
Speaker 1: But you know, it may well be that it was
Speaker 1: like ninety pills. I mean, I don't know how many
Speaker 1: pills were in that thing. You know, I have no idea.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying the eighteen minus thirty really actually proves anything.
Speaker 1: Joe was just made up math to prove a point
Speaker 1: that he doesn't know works. Math is overrated, actually don't work.
Speaker 1: I think actually that is maths is just making up
Speaker 1: things to prove a point and then coming back later
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, no, you're right right. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it's not unreasonable to say that she killed
Speaker 1: herself intentionally or otherwise, that it was suicide. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't believe this accidental overdose. I was gonna what
Speaker 1: I was gonna say is that I'm sorry, but if
Speaker 1: I grab a handful of pills and wash them down,
Speaker 1: I'm probably pretty sure that there's going to be negative
Speaker 1: consequences to that. Nobody takes some by accident. I mean,
Speaker 1: I knew. I knew kids who took aspirin, a boatload
Speaker 1: of aspirin because they thought it was going to have
Speaker 1: a negative effect on them. People know lots of pills
Speaker 1: you was a bad thing. Yeah, that's one of the
Speaker 1: first things when when I was a little kid growing up,
Speaker 1: My mother remem mother told me is that, hey, you
Speaker 1: can't be swallowing all this stuff. If you want to
Speaker 1: take one, take one, but don't take a bunch of them,
Speaker 1: because yeah, when I was a kid, by the way,
Speaker 1: they didn't have child proof caps. They just relied on
Speaker 1: you your parents smacking your cross. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I agree, especially if it's eighteen pills um. But you know,
Speaker 1: she was on a lot of other stuff, and she
Speaker 1: didn't really like to take the pills. And I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily know if they were all taken in one fell
Speaker 1: swoop or it was. You know, she took a couple
Speaker 1: and didn't feel anything. She was stressed out, she was anxious,
Speaker 1: she was like really really paranoid. So she popped a
Speaker 1: couple and waited and they didn't they didn't seem to
Speaker 1: be working, and popped a couple more. And you know,
Speaker 1: maybe and she was on medical marijuana as well, and
Speaker 1: you know, maybe she just kept forgetting that she'd already
Speaker 1: taken it. Well, I don't think forgetting, but I think
Speaker 1: maybe you're you're just kind of you're not really paying
Speaker 1: atten and so on. The accidental suicide camp, though, is
Speaker 1: that Joe is using the math of these being pills,
Speaker 1: But I was looking at stuff that was saying that
Speaker 1: it could be up to a hundred or a hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty to two hundred milligrams, So that really would
Speaker 1: have been seven pills. So that wouldn't have been as
Speaker 1: many pills as we've we've been making it out to be.
Speaker 1: I just I realized I looked at my notes, it's like, oh, oh, hell,
Speaker 1: they can be large dosages at times. How many how
Speaker 1: many milligrams did they say we're in? So when I
Speaker 1: looked at the Corners information or the Emmy's info, it
Speaker 1: was listed in milli leaders because it was in a
Speaker 1: liquid form at that point, which isn't always Miller leaders
Speaker 1: and milligrams aren't always a one to one ratio when
Speaker 1: it comes to medication, and the effects of one milli
Speaker 1: leader is not always the same. But it was seventy
Speaker 1: hundred million leaders. It's like, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's including all the fluids or what might have had
Speaker 1: to have been. It was like three times a lethal
Speaker 1: dose or something like that. It was a big number.
Speaker 1: It was. It was high, and frankly, if they're measuring liquid,
Speaker 1: I don't know that you can necessarily say, and this
Speaker 1: portion is how much. Well, I think the lab might
Speaker 1: be able to though, because it was on a lab
Speaker 1: report that was spitting out that was saying this negative, this, negative, this,
Speaker 1: and it's just like it was a sheet of everything
Speaker 1: negative until we got to this medication and then it
Speaker 1: said positive, and then it had a unit number next
Speaker 1: to it. So that's why maybe there presuming a m
Speaker 1: the equivalent of how much would have been present in
Speaker 1: her entire system. I don't know a lab tech and
Speaker 1: I apologize I probably butchered that, but that's my guests. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not sure how they infer these things,
Speaker 1: but I'm sure, I'm sure it's easy to do if
Speaker 1: you got the right equipment and you know what you're doing,
Speaker 1: and you know whether she took eighteen milligram pills or
Speaker 1: nine fifty milligram pills. I mean, I don't know, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't even know what what strengths amateripoline
Speaker 1: actually comes in, and but she took the equivalent of
Speaker 1: there's that's pretty much it. Another clue regarding the suicide
Speaker 1: theory is another detective from the Sheriff's office grabbed Morgan's
Speaker 1: diary and took a look at it, and the entries
Speaker 1: were undated, so it's not certain when this was written
Speaker 1: or if it was written on the date of death.
Speaker 1: But the last sentence in the diary is quote, I've
Speaker 1: completely lost my cool unquote, so not exactly suicidal, but
Speaker 1: not really positive and upbeat either. Um, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that means anything or not. There
Speaker 1: are reports of her having and and the stocking, I
Speaker 1: understand is why everybody's gonna point to this when I
Speaker 1: say it. But behavioral changes on her part. She she had,
Speaker 1: really she changed and yeah, I get it. You're being
Speaker 1: stalked that free shoo out. You're going to change your path,
Speaker 1: tarns in your interests in all of that. If indeed
Speaker 1: the stocking is real, what we haven't talked about is
Speaker 1: that she may have been experiencing some kind of psychosis,
Speaker 1: whether from the medication or just naturally occurring. That may
Speaker 1: have been what's going on, And it's just hearing things.
Speaker 1: What she hears, those tap tap taps on the windows. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean we talked about she's doing medical marijuana, and
Speaker 1: there's hind no A fair number of people who smoke
Speaker 1: pot and they get super paranoid, so that that's a
Speaker 1: very possible thing. She could have been having some kind
Speaker 1: of psychosis and the medication was actually causing it, because
Speaker 1: there are side effects, like sort of hallucinatory side effects
Speaker 1: that could be completely the culprit. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: one of the things, I mean, when you look at
Speaker 1: the medications she was taking and the symptoms she had
Speaker 1: a aparently been describing, it's not unlikely that she was
Speaker 1: suffering from panic attacks. And you know, one of the
Speaker 1: things psychosis does sometimes go with, It doesn't always go with,
Speaker 1: but sometimes goes with panic attacks, and that can include
Speaker 1: auditory hallucinations, it can include delusions, it can include paranoia,
Speaker 1: It includes a lot of different mental factors as well
Speaker 1: as that you know, heart racing that she was describing
Speaker 1: that we've seen she was describing. She was on some
Speaker 1: pills for pain that thin. Yeah, and you know, again,
Speaker 1: to be fair, I was on beta blockers for migraines
Speaker 1: um but so you can be on those for a
Speaker 1: lot of different things. But if she was having this
Speaker 1: chest pain and she was having these panic attacks, and
Speaker 1: it sounds like the medications she was on were to
Speaker 1: control that anxiety, and she had been complaining about chest
Speaker 1: pains a lot in the two weeks prior to her death,
Speaker 1: and I really can't. I mean, I do think she
Speaker 1: had to have been having panic attacks. I've read those reports.
Speaker 1: I am not an anxiety written person, but I would
Speaker 1: have been having panic attacks if I were in the
Speaker 1: situation that she was in, whether real or not. Okay,
Speaker 1: So suicide is a pretty credible theory, you know, Frankly,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of intentional or accidental. Our next theory
Speaker 1: is varying on suicide, which is suicide. And also the
Speaker 1: stocking never actually happened. There were reasons to doubt that
Speaker 1: the actual existence of the stocking to begin with, and
Speaker 1: the reason there are reasons to doubt Tony Ingram's credibility.
Speaker 1: She's the one that maintains apparently Morgen Ingram dot com.
Speaker 1: And there's some things out there that, frankly, I kind
Speaker 1: of question. This is one of those. This is one
Speaker 1: of those situations where I always worry when there's basically
Speaker 1: a single source for the story. Yeah, if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for the fact that the police keeps such good records
Speaker 1: and those were available, yeah, we would have one source
Speaker 1: for this story. Yeah, and it would be you know,
Speaker 1: and and originally this story it's not too long ago.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what it was to and twelve or whatever,
Speaker 1: and it came to the attention to web sleues and
Speaker 1: then um uh, that thread was created. It was a
Speaker 1: story of this girl who had been stocked and terrorized
Speaker 1: and it was murdered and found dead, and a lot
Speaker 1: of people took it really seriously at first, and then
Speaker 1: eventually people begin to have their doubts about it. Um
Speaker 1: and but it's apparently even for webs loues, it's pretty
Speaker 1: freaking huge threat. It's like almost three thousand pages huge.
Speaker 1: It's enormous. I didn't even try to get through it
Speaker 1: because I mean, frankly, getting through webs loues. And this
Speaker 1: is not to put anybody down to posts there, you know,
Speaker 1: because there are a good posts out there, But getting
Speaker 1: through web sluice is you gotta read a whole lot
Speaker 1: of stuff to find a single nugget of good solid information.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put that just against websites. Oh yeah, no,
Speaker 1: you're right, it is any forum. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm trying to actually conceptualized reach, a conceptualization of
Speaker 1: a forum that can actually find a way to segregate
Speaker 1: the useful stuff from just, you know, the fluff. I haven't.
Speaker 1: I haven't figured out a way to do it yet,
Speaker 1: but I'm really trying to thick hard. We're going to
Speaker 1: be millionaires. Yeah I know, I know. But where were
Speaker 1: we anyway? Oh? Yeah? So uh so it really is.
Speaker 1: You can see why this could attract a certain sort
Speaker 1: of attention and then people would be like really super sympathetic.
Speaker 1: But then when you really know the facts of the case, Well,
Speaker 1: first off, let's start here. Was Morgan really as terrorized
Speaker 1: as Tony claimed she was? And it's hard to tell
Speaker 1: because Morgan herself when the police talked to her, they
Speaker 1: didn't she didn't seem that concern. The Detective glass Myers
Speaker 1: report of October third, two thou eleven says, and I
Speaker 1: quote Morrigan seems to be more bothered by trying to
Speaker 1: catch the suspects. Morgan would rather ignore the harassment and
Speaker 1: continue living her life. Unquote. Well, okay, we haven't actually
Speaker 1: said yet. I don't think maybe we did that. The
Speaker 1: way that Tony heard about the raw hitting Morgan's window
Speaker 1: as Morgan would text her from her from her bedroom,
Speaker 1: her mom's bedroom on the other side of their house, right,
Speaker 1: which was a big house. But I just think, but
Speaker 1: I think that's an important note as well, is that
Speaker 1: whether Morgan seemed like she was more bothered by trying
Speaker 1: to catch the suspects or not, at the very least,
Speaker 1: she was also providing information to Tony. At least Tony
Speaker 1: says she was providing information. I suspect that the detectives
Speaker 1: actually went and found the text logs and found that
Speaker 1: she had actually been texting her mom. I'm sure they did.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know why they wouldn't. They were
Speaker 1: pretty thorough. They were very thorough. So but you know, actually,
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I I read I read the report.
Speaker 1: I read the report that in Tony's diary. I read
Speaker 1: that the entries talking about the text But I read
Speaker 1: glass Bowers reports especially, and he was pretty thorough. He
Speaker 1: never once mentioned actually getting their phones and looking at
Speaker 1: their text messages, and I would think it's possible that
Speaker 1: he didn't. But I just I do want to mention
Speaker 1: that as as bothered as Morgan may have seemed about
Speaker 1: the investigation, she was reporting at least reportedly reporting that
Speaker 1: stuff was going on, right, it would have been pretty
Speaker 1: easy for her to just say, mom, no it stopped, No,
Speaker 1: it stopped. If she had been serious about just wanting
Speaker 1: to deal with the harassment for the rest of her life,
Speaker 1: she would have just said, no, it stopped. It's fine,
Speaker 1: everything's fine, and people don't do that. But she could have.
Speaker 1: But I want to I want to take us down
Speaker 1: a slight side road for a second, which is something
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about, which is the rocks. Rocks are
Speaker 1: being thrown at her window. Pebbles, pebbles, not fifth side rocks. Actually, eventually,
Speaker 1: at one point they decided somebody must have been using
Speaker 1: an air soft rifle, and so they did look for this.
Speaker 1: But where where is the pile of rocks under her window?
Speaker 1: That's what I want to know. Because the gutters, yea,
Speaker 1: in the gutter? What? Yeah? Why not on the gutter? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it bounces off and it's sort of around. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: thing is it's snowing out because it was winter in
Speaker 1: Colorado and there's snow and it is frozen. And if
Speaker 1: somebody is throwing rocks, okay, yeah, it could have been
Speaker 1: a piece of ice. I get it. But if they're
Speaker 1: throwing rocks, there should have been obvious evidence and people
Speaker 1: should have seen it. And if this family is so
Speaker 1: thorough of documenting everything, they should have said, oh my god,
Speaker 1: there's a pebble outside of her window. Take a picture
Speaker 1: of it, so we have it, and let's get a fingerprinted.
Speaker 1: And I'm being a little facetious here, but there is
Speaker 1: none of that. At the end, at the end of
Speaker 1: four months of tossing pebbles at at Morgan's window, there
Speaker 1: certainly should have been a fairly deger sized pile of
Speaker 1: pebbles under a window. Should have been a small pyramid
Speaker 1: of gaza there gi. Yeah, if they were using an
Speaker 1: air soft gun, I mean those those pellets are plastic
Speaker 1: and they're brightly colored, and there were none of those either,
Speaker 1: because they did look for the police came by and
Speaker 1: did look for us. I know, I'm taking this down
Speaker 1: the side he But again, if we're going to question
Speaker 1: did this actually happen, where is this stuff? Snowballs? There
Speaker 1: was actually snowballs, Yeah, that could be. But even then
Speaker 1: on the windows, yeah, I know, I mean, I'm assuming
Speaker 1: my theory is that the stoker was using self dissolving
Speaker 1: rocks once you can buy online ice cubes. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was just ice cubes. Yeah. Well back to back
Speaker 1: to Morgan though for a second. Here as I said, Uh, Morgan,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was as terrorized as Tony says
Speaker 1: she was. The Deck of Glassmire on October thirtieth, filed
Speaker 1: another report. He summarized some conversations that he had with
Speaker 1: Tony Ingram, and here is a quote of what he says.
Speaker 1: Tony said, quote, I know Morgan is very emotionally distraught
Speaker 1: and not thinking clearly. She cries when I talk about
Speaker 1: it and wants to pretend it just isn't happening, unquote.
Speaker 1: So it could be that she was in Morgan was
Speaker 1: in denial, or it could be that Morgan thought her
Speaker 1: mom was just crazy and she wanted to shut up
Speaker 1: about stalking. I mean, I don't really know. I also
Speaker 1: we kind of talked about this a little bit too.
Speaker 1: It's also possible in my mind that like Morgan was
Speaker 1: trying to cover her tracks for sneaking out. Yeah. Maybe, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe Morgan made some of the stuff up
Speaker 1: and then maybe it just got out of hand, some
Speaker 1: kind of attention seeking behavior in the beginning and then
Speaker 1: oh my god, you put in cameras in. The cops
Speaker 1: are here, and mom is going insane. She's stocking Keenan
Speaker 1: now and she literally was. I mean, if anybody was
Speaker 1: a stoker, it was it was the parents and not
Speaker 1: not Keenan. Well, I mean, I think, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it is possible. She's sneaking out when the weather is
Speaker 1: nicer out her window and trying to cover her tracks
Speaker 1: by you know, her mom says, oh, Morgan, did you
Speaker 1: hear that something was going on with your window last night?
Speaker 1: And she said, oh, yeah, someone was throwing a rock
Speaker 1: at it. It's fine, And then her mom goes, what
Speaker 1: someone's during a rocket your window? You know, she's snuck
Speaker 1: out once, and it just escalates to this kind of
Speaker 1: fever pitch of terror. Maybe yeah, yeah, but I don't
Speaker 1: I guess I don't really think that's true. But well,
Speaker 1: you know, there's all kinds of things are possible. Anyway,
Speaker 1: back to back to the credibility of Tony and her claims.
Speaker 1: There is Jared the grandson, which is remember he ran
Speaker 1: and checked Keenan shoes under the guys of hey, do
Speaker 1: you want me to mow your lawn or something like
Speaker 1: that is what he did. Huh yeah, yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: so he's he identifies the footprint is being from that
Speaker 1: niche shoe. Well maybe, and then he follows the first
Speaker 1: car that drives by to see what shoes the drivers wearing. Okay,
Speaker 1: so maybe he plans on checking everybody in the whole subdivision.
Speaker 1: I don't know. And eureka, he looks out of it's
Speaker 1: a pair of yeah, yeah, a little Sherlock Holmes there.
Speaker 1: It turns out to be a pair of a pair
Speaker 1: of purple Etnis. This is uh. I don't know Jared
Speaker 1: said this or not, but this is what Tony in
Speaker 1: her diary said. He said purple Etneys. And I checked
Speaker 1: their website and I don't see any purple shoes in
Speaker 1: their catalog. Sorry, I just I'm just saying, that's that's
Speaker 1: a pair of purple Atkneys. They really did? Really? Yeah,
Speaker 1: well they're mostly black. They're mostly black. But I don't
Speaker 1: I doesn't I remember those shoes. I remember them being
Speaker 1: cool at that time. Um so I guess it wouldn't
Speaker 1: really surprise me so much. If you know Jared, it
Speaker 1: was a small town, and you know, he was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that guy's got cool shoes. What kind of shoes of
Speaker 1: the O, the purple, their Etney's and then he saw us, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, for whatever reason. And this is not to
Speaker 1: say that Keenan was stalking around the house. He could
Speaker 1: have taken a shortcut through the back and left a footprint.
Speaker 1: But he goes, oh you know what, that guy, um, Keenan,
Speaker 1: he has those cool Antkneys. I should go see those
Speaker 1: to see if there he is? Right? There? Is he
Speaker 1: wearing them? Now? Oh yeah? Yeah. And we don't know
Speaker 1: how old this kid is at this point. It could
Speaker 1: be I'm not really sure. Okay, let's just say he's
Speaker 1: a preteen and he gets swept up in in in
Speaker 1: Tony's excitement. Kids do that. They're in the case. They're
Speaker 1: gonna fix it, they're gonna solve it, and they found
Speaker 1: the clue. I mean yeah. I will just also add
Speaker 1: that the souls of Antney shoes usually say Etney and
Speaker 1: then well no. Um. The other thing though, is that
Speaker 1: is that they were pretty popular at the time. Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that that means that it was
Speaker 1: Keenan's shoes. I'm just saying it would not be insane
Speaker 1: to me to think that somebody had noticed that that
Speaker 1: one guy has that cool pair of Antney's and like,
Speaker 1: let's see if he's wearing them right now. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that works, except, of course we still don't know it
Speaker 1: was him, because for sure, no, no, no, yeah, I
Speaker 1: totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, back to back to
Speaker 1: Tony and her claims, Uh, there's the missing driver's license.
Speaker 1: But you can totally picture a serial killer taking a
Speaker 1: driver's license as a souvenirs are a big thing. Yeah. Sure,
Speaker 1: but the police December two, the day of they searched
Speaker 1: Tony's car, which Morgan had been in the night before,
Speaker 1: and they found Morgan's driver's license in there and she
Speaker 1: just left in the car, Yeah, Morrigan. Ingram dot com
Speaker 1: still claims that the driver's license was taken. The date
Speaker 1: rape drug thing. They say on there that amaterip de
Speaker 1: lane is a date rape drug. Insufficient quantities, but it isn't.
Speaker 1: I have heard that if you mix it with alcohol,
Speaker 1: it can have an effect similar to real hypnol. But
Speaker 1: Morgan didn't have any alcohol or system. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: tried to track some stuff down and the well, I
Speaker 1: know I didn't. I did the whole date rape drug
Speaker 1: thing and again is I looked up this drug specifically
Speaker 1: trying to find some stuff, and there's not a lot.
Speaker 1: And it's it's really it's inconclusive. It's it's not as
Speaker 1: if it's a It blatantly does this, and if you
Speaker 1: combine it with this, this or this, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: knocked out and completely compliance to whoever is with you.
Speaker 1: It's not a very it's not a clear cut case all.
Speaker 1: But let's be fair. That's not necessarily information you want
Speaker 1: to post on the internet. But I hate to tell
Speaker 1: you this, The information I was reading was on a
Speaker 1: frigging forum, so the people who were responsible for trying
Speaker 1: to control that information cannot control the forum. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: and just as a warning to anybody might take our
Speaker 1: information and run with it. If you can bind drugs,
Speaker 1: you know, you can actually kill somebody, So you might
Speaker 1: not just be guilty of rape, it'll be guilty of murder.
Speaker 1: So just don't do it, Okay, exactly, that's outfair, Okay,
Speaker 1: So that's like a good call. Yeah. So there's more
Speaker 1: stolen stuff though besides the stolen the stolen jewelry, remember that. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so her jewelry was missing. Uh, but that was that
Speaker 1: was actually not reported to police until April, twelve months
Speaker 1: after Morgan and died. Four months, yeah, four months. Keenan
Speaker 1: van Ginkel got into a little trouble with the law.
Speaker 1: He sold several is a gold jewelry at one of
Speaker 1: those we by gold places. I think it was called
Speaker 1: gold for cash and he was whichever one. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: was arrested on suspicion of receiving stolen property. And it
Speaker 1: turns out he had in his person some marijuana, had
Speaker 1: a pipe, which his possession of either one of those
Speaker 1: was illegal, not anymore, but then in Colorado, I know
Speaker 1: he was looking at that. Two later, I'm still dealing
Speaker 1: with a rap for getting caught with pod. Everybody I
Speaker 1: know he uh. The stolen property charges were dropped, but
Speaker 1: the POD charges stuck. Of course. After Tony learned of this,
Speaker 1: she emailed Detective glass Bar and told him that mortgage
Speaker 1: jewelry was missing, and it had been missing since the
Speaker 1: night of the murder, and she later revised this and
Speaker 1: this is my email arises too while some of the
Speaker 1: jewelry was gone, but they weren't sure which pieces have
Speaker 1: been taken, and Glassbar told her that they couldn't investigate
Speaker 1: the crime unless the England Pilot police report on the
Speaker 1: stolen property, and he encouraged them to file a report
Speaker 1: on that. Well, the Ingram's never did. However, their website
Speaker 1: still claims that Drewler was stolen. They they had it
Speaker 1: really hard for him, like he was there there only
Speaker 1: suspect they were throwing everything they could at him. I'm not.
Speaker 1: I I understand the last viable, known responsible party. We've
Speaker 1: got to put everything into getting justice. I think it's
Speaker 1: a little misdirected, but I understand why they were going
Speaker 1: after him so hard. I understand it too. But and
Speaker 1: I'll get into this little a little bit later, but
Speaker 1: it's just totally it totally is out of hand. Oh yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I would really agree. It got pretty wild. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it still is out there. I mean, I mean that
Speaker 1: website is still out there with all of this many accusations.
Speaker 1: Another reason that to question Tony's integrity here, which is
Speaker 1: Brooke Brooke Harris so girlfriend, Yeah, Keenan's girlfriend. I keep
Speaker 1: wanting to say Kegan and myself, I used to work
Speaker 1: with a guy named Kegan, and so it's like and
Speaker 1: so I never worked with a guy named Keenan. Got it.
Speaker 1: At least you didn't work with Keanu in the movie.
Speaker 1: What do you mean at least you didn't, because because
Speaker 1: if if you worked in that movie, you would go
Speaker 1: to with a kitten. It looked like that you'd go
Speaker 1: to stupid length to do whatever you had to for
Speaker 1: that cute kitten. What you guys look at me like
Speaker 1: you haven't seen that movie. Of course I've seen that movie.
Speaker 1: I have not seen that movie that We'll talk to Joe.
Speaker 1: Let's keep going. Oh my god, all right, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get you sidetracked with cats. Okay, that's a
Speaker 1: good point. Uh. So remember, for the first part of
Speaker 1: our saga, the only suspect in the Ingram's thing was Keenan.
Speaker 1: That was it, but that it turned out that Keenan
Speaker 1: had been out of state for three days in September
Speaker 1: and seven days in November. I think it was on
Speaker 1: a hunting trip at one point. Yeah, there, I think
Speaker 1: they of both hunting trips and uh and of course
Speaker 1: some of the incidents occurred during those time periods. And
Speaker 1: then also when they checked his work records, well, uh,
Speaker 1: he was on the job when a lot of these
Speaker 1: incidents occurred too, So that kind of would have you
Speaker 1: think that would rule him out as a suspect. But
Speaker 1: then yeah, Tony and Steve decided, well, that must mean
Speaker 1: that Brooke is in the conspiracy too. Yeah, even though
Speaker 1: and so they started accusing Brooke also being in on this,
Speaker 1: and even though they had broken up I think by
Speaker 1: this time. Nonetheless, Yeah, so it's crazy. But and as
Speaker 1: far as the claimed that the police did not investigate,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of follow up by police, you know,
Speaker 1: long after Morgan's death. They did continue to pursue the
Speaker 1: possibility of the maybe a murder, And certainly Tony was
Speaker 1: all over the Sheriff's office and there was tons of contact,
Speaker 1: and it's all on the reports, all the emails, all
Speaker 1: the phone conversations, pushing the idea that Keenan was a
Speaker 1: serial killer in the Audia auDA YadA uh. In March
Speaker 1: two to two thousand twelve, Glassmyer Brock Keenan in for
Speaker 1: another interview. This time he lied to him last Buyer allied.
Speaker 1: He said that some of the some of the driveway
Speaker 1: video had been sent to an independent lab and they
Speaker 1: had enhanced it again doing that the enhancement bs and
Speaker 1: and they definitely showed Keenan being in Morgan's driveway. He
Speaker 1: also had a lab report from the same lab. You
Speaker 1: know what's what's said the same thing, essentially totally doctor
Speaker 1: he showed it to Keenan. He probably made it word Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he probably did. And and Keenan still just basically didn't
Speaker 1: according to the police reports, didn't change his story at all.
Speaker 1: It says, I have not been on their property period.
Speaker 1: I don't care what that camera says. And and I
Speaker 1: think he convinced glast Buyer. Actually glass Buyer did ask
Speaker 1: him bog willing to submit to a computer voice stress analyzer.
Speaker 1: Keenan said that he would. Uh. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that even exists. That might have been another made up
Speaker 1: BS thing. But he you know, the glass Buyer was
Speaker 1: actually on the case as far as the ingland sticking.
Speaker 1: He was not. Didn't do any investigation. I mean, he
Speaker 1: took their chief suspect, who, by the way, there was
Speaker 1: not a shred of evidence against and still starting the process. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he hammered on him a little bit to try to
Speaker 1: get him to confess, and he didn't do it. So
Speaker 1: that but but nonetheless, the claim that the police didn't
Speaker 1: investigate is still on their website, and you know, and
Speaker 1: obviously the police did investigate. Uh. There's another another thing
Speaker 1: that really raises my eyebrows, which is this, Um, there
Speaker 1: was an incident. I think it took place on September five,
Speaker 1: and I mentioned it before. Tony was standing in the
Speaker 1: fourier of their house. Somebody ran across the saw to
Speaker 1: the windows. He turned, he turned and ran. Uh he
Speaker 1: ran around the north side of the house. And her
Speaker 1: husband didn't see this person even though he ran to
Speaker 1: the back of the house and try to see him
Speaker 1: through the sliding lass doors in the back of the house. Now,
Speaker 1: it's interesting about this is that it wasn't that long
Speaker 1: before this that they had installed a camera above the
Speaker 1: porch of the house us to the front of the house,
Speaker 1: and this guy was running across, and this guy was
Speaker 1: not caught on film. That's kind of mysterious to me,
Speaker 1: which makes me believe excuse me for interrupting, was interrupting,
Speaker 1: But it makes me wonder. Obviously Steve didn't see the guy.
Speaker 1: She could have totally made the entire thing up. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but certainly he should have been caught
Speaker 1: on the camera. If you'd run across their driveway and
Speaker 1: around the side of at least one camera and that
Speaker 1: didn't happen, did it. No? And here's the other thing
Speaker 1: is that you will see on the internet, I know
Speaker 1: Devin and I were chatting about this earlier. Is the path.
Speaker 1: So there's a burn behind the col de sack that
Speaker 1: separates it from the property this next door, which I
Speaker 1: think is a horse farm, and it's got some roads
Speaker 1: and pastures in it. And if you go uh northeast
Speaker 1: from the house, it'll take you to the intersection of
Speaker 1: Kenny Road one hundred and is in a state eighty
Speaker 1: two I think it is. I can't remember now on
Speaker 1: the top of my head. I'm too lazy to go. Look,
Speaker 1: it's Highway eighty two, Highway two. Okay. Well, at that
Speaker 1: intersection of Highway eighty two in County Road one there's
Speaker 1: a bus stop. And so there's a couple of things
Speaker 1: that make me think of what this this supposed um
Speaker 1: stalker path could be. Is it could be somebody who
Speaker 1: doesn't have a car who says, well, let's see, I
Speaker 1: can walk the mile and a half around going along
Speaker 1: the road for I can kind across the properties that
Speaker 1: are in this cul de sac and the field and
Speaker 1: and you know, cut my trip in half, which is
Speaker 1: gonna explain why if some if people are doing that,
Speaker 1: one or more people are doing that on a regular basis,
Speaker 1: that's gonna wear a path I never mind, could be
Speaker 1: a game path, because it could be game that animals
Speaker 1: that are setting off their motion detectors. Um. But the
Speaker 1: other thing that I was wondering about, somebody walking their dog.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's entirely I mean, I've brought this up before.
Speaker 1: I've mentioned dogs several times in this, but it's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that somebody on that call to sac has a dog.
Speaker 1: The backyards aren't fenced in, so somebody could be walking
Speaker 1: along and then they cut through the neighborhoods they walk this.
Speaker 1: You know what sucks about having a dog picking up poop?
Speaker 1: You know what's awesome about a field. You don't have
Speaker 1: to pick up anything. So you just you cut through
Speaker 1: the berm, You walk your dog out there, the dog
Speaker 1: does its business, dog or dogs, and then you and
Speaker 1: then you walk back and you let's say that it's
Speaker 1: rural enough that whoever is doing this is not walking
Speaker 1: their dog on a leash. Well, now they're walking their
Speaker 1: path every time their dogs are falling, that their dogs
Speaker 1: are running all over the property to call the sack,
Speaker 1: setting off motion detectors and cameras like mad like. I've
Speaker 1: just made these up because I was looking at it.
Speaker 1: But these are two very plausible reasons for the path
Speaker 1: and possibly for the motion detectors being triggered. Because motion
Speaker 1: detectors are not a straight beam. They throw a very
Speaker 1: wide arc. My neighbor had one on his shed that
Speaker 1: in my yard. I could wave and it would set
Speaker 1: it off, and it was pointed in his yard only.
Speaker 1: So I mean, these things are not perfect. They're not fallible, infallible,
Speaker 1: So I just there's a lot of things. Yeah, Now
Speaker 1: I just wonder there's there's all sorts of reasons. I mean,
Speaker 1: I I know that, you know, people cut through and
Speaker 1: across other people's property all the time. It's just not
Speaker 1: that unusual, and especially when it's kind of a ruralist area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, So back to another reason to
Speaker 1: wonder about Tony's incredibility here is I talked to Detective
Speaker 1: Glassmire actually just this morning, and we had it was
Speaker 1: a pretty brief chat. He's left the Sheriff's office. He's
Speaker 1: now Garfield County corner. And he wouldn't comment in the
Speaker 1: case because he thinks it would be appropriate for him
Speaker 1: to do it since he's no longer with the Sheriff's Department. Understandable,
Speaker 1: But he did say an interesting thing, um, because I
Speaker 1: asked him my first question was did the stocking even happen?
Speaker 1: Because I said, I'm really doubting that it even did,
Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: who doubt it. But other than that, that's all I
Speaker 1: got out of him. But well, that's not an admission
Speaker 1: of anything from it's not he wouldn't say. He wouldn't
Speaker 1: tell me what his personal opinion was, which as a
Speaker 1: professional I totally respect. Yeah, but I respect that too.
Speaker 1: But he did say that a lot of people do
Speaker 1: doubt it, and so I personally suspect that he probably
Speaker 1: kind of doubts it. I don't want to put words
Speaker 1: in his mouth, no, nor do I, but I suspect
Speaker 1: that a lot of people doubt it. But there's there's
Speaker 1: one last thing about this that really kind of raises
Speaker 1: my eyebrows, um, and that is the security cameras. We
Speaker 1: talked about their poor qualities, Yeah, their poor quality in
Speaker 1: their lack of findings. Yeah. Yeah, the fact that they
Speaker 1: never got a single frame of usable evidence out of
Speaker 1: any of those cameras, and they put a bunch of
Speaker 1: math there, which really makes you wonder why they didn't
Speaker 1: upgrade the better quality cameras. In fact, it to me
Speaker 1: that's kind of unfathomable that they didn't do this. Why
Speaker 1: did they not upgrade the better cameras? Aren't they expensive?
Speaker 1: Sure they are, but I will so I have a
Speaker 1: family member who has security cameras around their house and
Speaker 1: got them based on the recommendation of somebody and doesn't
Speaker 1: totally understand what they're using. So may not understand. Let's
Speaker 1: say that this family member that my family member is
Speaker 1: capturing things and can't figure out what the problem is.
Speaker 1: May not comprehend that the issue is not with whoever
Speaker 1: is running around that they're trying to capture being so good,
Speaker 1: but in fact the quality of the camera that I mean,
Speaker 1: why not get a better camera? But it may not
Speaker 1: comprehend it. That is the problem, is the point that
Speaker 1: I'm making here. Joe may not realize that the problem
Speaker 1: is you have a crap camera, So they don't. They
Speaker 1: don't even think that I need to replace it with
Speaker 1: a better one because they just don't realize the problem.
Speaker 1: Here's the deal. If you're concerned about the issue, and
Speaker 1: you really want to know who your prayer is, then
Speaker 1: you're gonna be asking people. You'll be asking the cops,
Speaker 1: will be asking the people of the story about the
Speaker 1: camera from You're gonna be asking people, how do I
Speaker 1: get a good image. I'm not disagreeing with you. Yes,
Speaker 1: if they if they wanted to go to just amazing length,
Speaker 1: they should have ringed the house in I infrared cameras
Speaker 1: and night vision cameras and just recorded seven and invested
Speaker 1: in some crazy setup. But they didn't do that. But
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna fault them because I
Speaker 1: personally don't know that they didn't realize where their issue
Speaker 1: in getting an image of this person was. They always said,
Speaker 1: this guy is so widely, he is so good at
Speaker 1: what he's doing that he's evading not only us, he's
Speaker 1: evading the police. So again, I'm not gonna That's why
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not saying that that's something to hold too.
Speaker 1: As strongly as you you know, I still think, you know,
Speaker 1: especially as far as the expense of the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, these people lived in a large, nice modern house.
Speaker 1: They drove, They drove a land Rover for christ Sex,
Speaker 1: not a cheap not a cheap ride. And so I
Speaker 1: don't think money was that much of an object for them.
Speaker 1: And I really would have thought that if identifying the
Speaker 1: PURP was that high in their priority list, I really
Speaker 1: think they would have gotten better equipment, They would have
Speaker 1: consulted somebody who could have guided them into how to
Speaker 1: get better images. At this point, we're going into what
Speaker 1: if land and I think we're almost sending a little judge,
Speaker 1: So I think we need to that's true. That No,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I find it a little puzzling like that.
Speaker 1: So you guys have any more thoughts on this this
Speaker 1: mystery and now, yeah, anybody want to cuse No, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just sad, totally, the whole situation. It is, especially
Speaker 1: for the I mean for the family obviously, for Morgan
Speaker 1: and also for Keenan, who I you know, obviously I
Speaker 1: think very unfairly been accused. I think that pretty famous crimes.
Speaker 1: I'm still of the opinion that I think that something
Speaker 1: was building that was not recognized or diagnosed with and
Speaker 1: that's what whether this was done intentional, whether it was
Speaker 1: an intentional or unintentional. I think that something was happening
Speaker 1: with her and she didn't know what was going on.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just just based on what I've seen
Speaker 1: in the behavior and the things. It's just an observation.
Speaker 1: But that's where I think. Yeah, But anyway, it's it's unfortunate,
Speaker 1: but you know, hopefully everybody sooner or later we'll get
Speaker 1: their acts together and you know, people will live happily
Speaker 1: ever after. In the meantime, it's still crazy on the internet.
Speaker 1: So you guys probably wanted some interesting facts about us. Well,
Speaker 1: let me start from this top. We have a website.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this and that we
Speaker 1: have a website, can you believe it? Yeah? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: called Thinking Sideways Podcast dot com. We gotta dot com
Speaker 1: not to dot net. Uh huh yeah, we're we're big time.
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Speaker 1: like you, yeah, that's your terrible man, Joe. Otherwise we'll
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Speaker 1: about it. Do you guys have any last thoughts on
Speaker 1: this week's murder mystery? No, I don't mean either. I
Speaker 1: think it's pretty open shuts. So that's about it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll see you all out there on the internet. Bye bye, everybody,
Speaker 1: bie guys,