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Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold

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Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite

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Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially

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Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights

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Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be

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Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts

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Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has

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Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

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Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply

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Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime

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Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: May eleventh, nineteen ninety two start out as an ordinary

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Speaker 2: day for twenty year old newlyweds Justin and Jennifer Judd.

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Speaker 2: Justin and Jennifer were high school sweethearts. They had met

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Speaker 2: through friends when Jennifer was fifteen years old and Justin

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Speaker 2: was sixteen, and they had only been married for nine days.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they had just gotten back from their honeymoon

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Speaker 2: in Branson, Missouri. These were busy times for a young couple.

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Speaker 2: Justin and Jennifer had relocated from Pitcher, where they were

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Speaker 2: both originally from to Baxter Springs, Kansas. They moved into

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Speaker 2: their duplex at two nineteen North Park Avenue. Though they

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Speaker 2: had been dating for years, this was the first time

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Speaker 2: they had ever lived together. Justin left for work that morning.

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Speaker 2: As usual. He worked as a guard at a nearby

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Speaker 2: chemical plant, and his shift started at six thirty am.

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Speaker 2: At the time, Jennifer also had a job at a

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Speaker 2: convenience store, but she wasn't working that day. That morning

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Speaker 2: she left the house. According to media reports, she ran

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Speaker 2: some marins. Apparently Jennifer had an appointment at the tanning

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Speaker 2: bed that day, among other things. Justin had called her

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Speaker 2: in the morning, asking Jennifer to pack a lunch and

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Speaker 2: drop it off for him at work, but Jennifer never

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Speaker 2: showed up. When Justin came home from work at around

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Speaker 2: two thirty pm, he walked into their apartment and found

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Speaker 2: Jennifer on the kitchen floor, lying in a pool of blood.

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Speaker 2: This had been a frenzied attack. Jennifer had been stabbed

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Speaker 2: multiple times, and both of the weapons the two knives

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Speaker 2: she had been stabbed with had come from her own kitchen,

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Speaker 2: including the eight inch knife that was still sticking in

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Speaker 2: Jennifer's back. The killer or killers had attacked Jennifer with

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Speaker 2: so much force that one of the knives her wedding gift,

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Speaker 2: broke off inside her body. Jennifer's friend's family, and the

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Speaker 2: whole community, because this was a small town, were stunned

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Speaker 2: at the violence of this crime. Everyone was scared, but

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Speaker 2: all of them hoped that Jennifer's murder would be solved

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Speaker 2: very soon. But it wasn't, and thirty four years later,

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Speaker 2: Jennifer's killer is still out there. I'm Catherine Townsend. Over

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Speaker 2: the past eight years of making my true crime podcast,

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Speaker 2: Helen Gone, I've learned that there's no such thing as

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Speaker 2: a small town where murder never happens. I've received hundreds

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Speaker 2: of messages from people all around the country asking for

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Speaker 2: help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families,

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Speaker 2: and their communities. If you have a case you'd like

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Speaker 2: me and my team to look into, you can reach

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Speaker 2: out to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at

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Speaker 2: six seven eight seven four four six one four five.

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Speaker 2: That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five,

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Speaker 2: or you can send us a message on Instagram at

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Speaker 2: Helen Gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. From the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Once police arrived at the crime scene, they did not

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Speaker 2: think that Jennifer's killing was just a random robbery gone wrong.

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Speaker 2: First of all, no money had been stolen. Jennifer's purse

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Speaker 2: was still at the house and she had money inside it.

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Speaker 2: She was still wearing her wedding rings, and nothing appeared

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Speaker 2: to be missing from inside the home. Also, the knives

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Speaker 2: that were used to kill Jennifer came from inside her house.

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Speaker 2: We had a chance to speak with Justin for this podcast.

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Speaker 2: He talked to us about the horror he experienced that

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Speaker 2: day and the shock of losing the woman he had

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Speaker 2: married nine days earlier, someone who he had loved since

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Speaker 2: he was sixteen years old. Justin, who is now in

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Speaker 2: his fifties, told us about how he met Jennifer, in

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Speaker 2: their relationship, and the timeline of exactly what happened on

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Speaker 2: the day she was killed. Justin and Jennifer met at

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Speaker 2: a high school party when Justin was sixteen. Jennifer was

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Speaker 2: petene with brown hair and brown eyes. She was pretty

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Speaker 2: and popular in high school. Jennifer was homecoming queen. The

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Speaker 2: way that Justin described meeting Jennifer, it sounded like from

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Speaker 2: his end it was pretty much love at first sight.

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Speaker 3: I was at a party at a friend of mine

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Speaker 3: just It was like two weeks after I turned sixteen.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'd got my driver's lessons and my buddy

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Speaker 3: had a bunch of friends over his house. His parents

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Speaker 3: was gone, and he said, hey, goes, my girlfriend's got

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Speaker 3: a friend that wants to meet you. And like, okay,

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Speaker 3: you know, so we load up and truck and we

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Speaker 3: go over to Picture and you know, it's selling four

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Speaker 3: cell phones and everything. You know, I met her and

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Speaker 3: we pretty much so dated until we got married.

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Speaker 2: Justin and Jennifer dated for four years. They married in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two. Both of them were twenty years old.

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Speaker 2: Justin mits that he and Jennifer had their share of arguments.

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Speaker 2: He has called her a spitfire. Jennifer's sister, Amanda Davis,

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Speaker 2: has stated in interviews with journalists that at one point,

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Speaker 2: Jennifer considered calling the wedding to Justin off Justin admitted

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Speaker 2: they both considered canceling the wedding during arguments, but he

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Speaker 2: said neither of them were serious. He said leading up

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Speaker 2: to the wedding, the conflicts they were having, in his opinion,

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Speaker 2: could mostly be chalked up to immaturity. Justin did admit

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Speaker 2: their relationship had its ups and downs, like any young

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Speaker 2: couple about to take a big step, but he said

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Speaker 2: they were very happy together. He described Jennifer as not

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Speaker 2: only his wife, but his best friend.

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Speaker 3: We both went through a little period where we thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, maybe we shouldn't do this. You know, we're

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Speaker 3: young and all that, and and you know, we both decided,

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Speaker 3: you know that it is going to happen eventually, so

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Speaker 3: we might as well just go ahead get married. So

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Speaker 3: we did. If you can recall back when you were

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Speaker 3: sixteen and stuff, you know, you got a lot of

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Speaker 3: girl and pains, and we just, you know, we went

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Speaker 3: through them together. We you know, justically grew in our

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Speaker 3: teens together. And she wasn't, you know, just my girlfriend.

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Speaker 3: She was pretty much so like my best friend. You know,

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Speaker 3: you go through them stages where you know, jealousy stages,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we went through all that. You know,

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Speaker 3: we made we made it through all that stuff. So

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Speaker 3: we figured, you might as well just get married now,

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Speaker 3: so we did.

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Speaker 2: Justin said that on the day Jennifer was murdered, looking back,

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Speaker 2: there were some things that were unusual that day For

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Speaker 2: one thing, Justin said, he ate breakfast that morning, then

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Speaker 2: he fell back asleep and actually overslept, so he ended

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Speaker 2: up waking up and leaving for work quickly, and in

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Speaker 2: his haste he forgot to bring in his packed lunch.

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Speaker 3: That morning for some reason. And that's something I never do.

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Speaker 3: I got up and I ate breakfast, and I went

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Speaker 3: and laid back down to bed, and I fell back

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Speaker 3: to sleep, and they were called and said, hey, are

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Speaker 3: you coming in? I was like, yeah, okay, so, and

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Speaker 3: I didn't live very far from work, so I went

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Speaker 3: and jumping the truck and left.

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Speaker 2: So sometime between approximately nine and nine thirty am, Justin

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Speaker 2: called Jennifer from work. He asked if she would bring

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Speaker 2: his lunch in, which she agreed to do. But Jennifer

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Speaker 2: never showed up that day, so Justin started calling the

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Speaker 2: house and getting no answer. Justin was getting concerned. And

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Speaker 2: then a few minutes before noon, something else out of

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Speaker 2: the ordinary happened. A friend of Justin's, Charles Chuck Chance,

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Speaker 2: who had actually been a guest at their wedding, stopped

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Speaker 2: by Justin's work that day. This was something Justin said

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Speaker 2: he thought was odd because Chuck had never come to

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Speaker 2: his work before Chuck told Justin he had gone to

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Speaker 2: Justin and Jennifer's house. He said he knocked on the

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Speaker 2: front door, but that Jennifer didn't answer. Chuck was unemployed

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Speaker 2: at the time and later told police he had spent

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Speaker 2: the morning driving around going to job interviews. Chuck told

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Speaker 2: Justin when he got to the chemical plant that he

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Speaker 2: was concerned about Jennifer. To this day, this statement by

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Speaker 2: There's Justin. After his shift finished at two thirty pm,

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Speaker 2: Justin and Chuck rode separately back to Jennifer and Justin's home.

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Speaker 2: When they got to the apartment, Justin said Jennifer's car

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Speaker 2: was in the driveway. He looked inside it and saw

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Speaker 2: his packed lunch. Later, when police searched Jennifer's nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: four black Mercury Cougar, they would bag up the sandwich

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Speaker 2: and banana that was presumably meant to be Justin's lunch

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Speaker 2: and label it as evidence. When Justin and Chuck got

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Speaker 2: to the front door, Justin noticed the door was unlocked,

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Speaker 2: which he says was very unusual.

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Speaker 3: Got to work, and around ten o'clock or eleven o'clock,

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Speaker 3: Chuck showed up at my work and he stayed there

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Speaker 3: till I got off at three and he went home

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Speaker 3: with me, and her car was there. I remember reaching

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Speaker 3: down and grabbing the door and opening the door, and

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Speaker 3: it wasn't locked, and I and you know, it's always

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Speaker 3: a big thing of mine, you know, with hers, you know,

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Speaker 3: I always locked the door, you know. I walked and

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Speaker 3: it was dark, and I believe I seen her keys

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Speaker 3: in the floor, and for some reason, I turned and

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Speaker 3: went to the bedroom. I guess I just you know,

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Speaker 3: since all the lights off, I assumed that she was

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Speaker 3: laying down. So I go in the bedroom and I

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Speaker 3: noticed that it looked like the bed was made, but

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Speaker 3: it looked like somebody had laid down on the side

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Speaker 3: of the bed, you know, just laid back down on it,

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Speaker 3: because it was kind of ruffled. And I turned around

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Speaker 3: and walked over walked into the kitchen. And I walked

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Speaker 3: into the kitchen. I've seen her laying on the floor,

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Speaker 3: and my first thought was was she was which you know,

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Speaker 3: I didn't know a whole lot about medicine and stuff

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Speaker 3: back then, but I knew she was a knemi shed

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Speaker 3: uh kind of a blood disorder, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: she passed out, you know, and I reached over, I

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Speaker 3: put the light on and and I seen that, you know,

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Speaker 3: her eyes were outed and she was passed. I reached

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Speaker 3: down and felt her neck and it was cold and hard.

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Speaker 3: But the weird thing is is I I never seen

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Speaker 3: any blood. And according to the KBI, there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of blood everywhere and said that people will will

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Speaker 3: block that out as a defense mechanism. Yeah, I didn't

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Speaker 3: see any blood.

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Speaker 2: What Justin witnessed was horrible. Chuck had walked into the

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Speaker 2: apartment with him, and to this day, Justin said that

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Speaker 2: what he described as Chuck's out of character behavior bothered

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Speaker 2: him both before they discovered Jennifer's body and after when.

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Speaker 3: We was walking into the house. He made a call

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Speaker 3: and he said, I can here's the bitch. And now

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, and you know, that's kind of it's one

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Speaker 3: of one of the things that just was just really odd.

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Speaker 3: And then we go in and you know, we find

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Speaker 3: her and stuff, and he just starts, I'm scared. I'm

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Speaker 3: scared and shaking and stuff. And I wasn't, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was just you knowing shock. And I said call

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Speaker 3: nine one one, and he grabbed the phone and he

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Speaker 3: couldn't call, so I get the phone and I call

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Speaker 3: and I called nine one one, and don't I don't

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Speaker 3: know what it was that I felt. I felt like

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Speaker 3: when the paramedics got there, I felt like everything's gonna

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Speaker 3: be okay. When they walked through, I felt like everything

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Speaker 3: was gonna be okay, you know, And it wasn't. But

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Speaker 3: the paramedics got there, and you know, we went outside

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Speaker 3: and I never went back in.

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Speaker 2: Once police arrived at the scene, they immediately figured out

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Speaker 2: this had been a knife attack. Part of an eight

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Speaker 2: inch kitchen knife was sticking out of Jennifer's back, but

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Speaker 2: that knife and the other knife invested the Gators believe

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Speaker 2: was used during the killing were never recovered, so police

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Speaker 2: had no murder weapon, and they struggled to figure out

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Speaker 2: a motive. Police interviewed a lot of people, but seemed

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Speaker 2: to hit a dead end early on. One problem could

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Speaker 2: have been the lack of physical evidence and the fact

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Speaker 2: that DNA testing back in nineteen ninety two was not

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Speaker 2: what it is today, so is there evidence that could

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Speaker 2: be retested. They did find hairs at the crime scene

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Speaker 2: on Jennifer's bed, and it has been reported that the

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Speaker 2: hairs did not belong to anyone in the Judd family,

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Speaker 2: but there hasn't been any information released about what happened

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Speaker 2: to those hairs, whether they were tested against other suspects,

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Speaker 2: and what the status of that evidence is today. There

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Speaker 2: may have been other complications as well. Justin has stated

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Speaker 2: in the past he believed that crime scene was not

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Speaker 2: secured properly. He said that there were multiple people allowed

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Speaker 2: inside his and Jennifer's home that Day's said he knows

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Speaker 2: that because he saw what went down. Still in the beginning,

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Speaker 2: Jennifer's family and friends were hopeful that her killer would

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Speaker 2: be caught quickly. Jennifer was very well known in town.

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Speaker 2: She was heavily involved in her community and dedicated to

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Speaker 2: her Christian faith. She played softball and basketball, and she

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Speaker 2: was an active member of her church, the First Baptist Church.

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Speaker 2: According to newspaper reports, more than seven hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: people showed up for Jennifer's funeral at the First Baptist Church.

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Speaker 2: So many people came to her funeral it was standing

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Speaker 2: room only. People were actually spilling out onto the church lawn.

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Speaker 2: Jennifer's autopsy has not been made public, but details and

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Speaker 2: pages from it have been posted to several online sources.

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Speaker 2: Jennifer was stabbed nine times. She was stabbed six times

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Speaker 2: on the left side of her chest. One of those

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Speaker 2: stab wounds went through her heart. Three more stab wounds

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Speaker 2: were found on Jennifer's back on the left sid The

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Speaker 2: actual cause of death was exanguination, meaning Jennifer blood to death,

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Speaker 2: and the autopsy report estimated the time of death at

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Speaker 2: approximately ten thirty am. A private investigator named Stephen M.

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Speaker 2: Garrett worked on the case for a long time. He

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Speaker 2: prepared an investigative report that included a lot of original documents.

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Speaker 2: A lot of pieces of this report have been posted

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Speaker 2: and quoted online. At some point, this report stated that

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Speaker 2: Stephen had reached out to the medical examiner, who told

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Speaker 2: him that, in their opinion, that Jennifer's killer hated her,

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Speaker 2: calling the murder overkill. The stab wounds buried in depth.

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Speaker 2: Two of the stab wounds to Jennifer's chest were one

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Speaker 2: and three quarter inches deep, Another was one in a

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00:16:32,921 --> 00:16:36,801
Speaker 2: quarter inch steep. Other stab wounds were between one and

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Speaker 2: one and a half inches deep. Some were even shallower,

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Speaker 2: between five eighths of an inch to one inch deep.

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Speaker 2: According to the autopsy report, Jennifer had other cuts on

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Speaker 2: her left hand her left eye and her scalp. All

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Speaker 2: of the abrasions, including the five inch abrasion on her scalp,

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Speaker 2: were caused by quote blunt trauma by a heavy instrument,

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Speaker 2: fist or foot end quote, So it appears as though

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Speaker 2: Jennifer's killer hit her and then, judging by the abrasion,

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Speaker 2: which is usually caused by some kind of friction, Jennifer

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Speaker 2: probably hit her head on something, or the abrasion could

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Speaker 2: have happened when Jennifer's head was against the floor. There

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Speaker 2: was a struggle. The killer grabbed a knife. Once the

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Speaker 2: struggle started, it was a fight to the death, judging

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Speaker 2: by the stab wounds on Jennifer's front and back. The

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Speaker 2: wounds on her back, by the way, were also all

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Speaker 2: entry wounds. Whatever happened was an instant. It took time

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Speaker 2: to kill Jennifer, and her killer had many moments when

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Speaker 2: they could have paused or stopped, but they didn't. But

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Speaker 2: why would someone kill Jennifer? Sexual assault did not appear

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Speaker 2: to be the motive, at least not on the surface.

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Speaker 2: The autopsy did not find any evidence that Jennifer had

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Speaker 2: been raped or sexually assaulted in any way, and though

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Speaker 2: Jennifer could be as her friend's family and husband described her, feisty,

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Speaker 2: She was also very well loved. No one could think

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Speaker 2: of anyone who would want to hurt her. It is

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Speaker 2: possible that what some people believes the overkill aspect of

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Speaker 2: the crime, the multiple stabbings, may not have been someone

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Speaker 2: who had a hatred for Jennifer personally. It could also

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Speaker 2: be someone who didn't know her at all. It could

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Speaker 2: indicate a killer who was inexperienced and panicked. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety eight, the Kansas Bureau of Investigations got a cold

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Speaker 2: case squad. They started looking into Jennifer's case. In two

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Speaker 2: thousand and one, a local newspaper reported that Ray London,

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Speaker 2: a KBI senior special agent and coordinator of the squad,

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Speaker 2: told them the squad had been working on the case

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Speaker 2: for two years straight at that point, and that quote,

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Speaker 2: an arrest might come soon end quote then nothing happened.

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Speaker 2: The KBI did more public outreach on the fifteenth anniversary

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Speaker 2: of Jennifer's murder in two thousand and seven. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: there have been several people named as possible suspects. One

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Speaker 2: of the biggest questions in the investigation was was Jennifer's

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Speaker 2: killer someone she knew and possibly invited inside. Remember the

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00:19:05,241 --> 00:19:10,041
Speaker 2: door was unlocked, but also Jennifer's keys were on the floor.

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Speaker 2: Could someone have surprised her at the door and pushed

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Speaker 2: her inside? Could someone have been stalking Jennifer. Jennifer's father,

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Speaker 2: Dale Bryan, told the Joplin Globe he believed Jennifer might

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Speaker 2: have had a stalker. He said, five days before her

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Speaker 2: brutal murder, she told a friend someone was pounding on

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Speaker 2: her door hard. She was so freaked out by that.

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Speaker 2: Apparently she hid from this person. Jennifer's father also told

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Speaker 2: the paper he had followed her home because she thought

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Speaker 2: that someone was following her, though this happened several months

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Speaker 2: before the murder. We asked Justin if Jennifer ever mentioned

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Speaker 2: anything about anyone following her. Justin said that, from what

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Speaker 2: he could remember, she had not. He also does not

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Speaker 2: remember her ever saying anything about someone pounding on the door.

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Speaker 2: Justin said, based on what the Kansas Bureau of Investigations

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Speaker 2: said to him, he believed they were completely focused on

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Speaker 2: his friend, Chuck Chance as the main suspect. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: Chuck has been arrested multiple times and spent time in jail.

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Speaker 2: For things like public intoxication, grand larceny, obstructing a police officer,

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Speaker 2: escaped from jail, possession of a stolen vehicle, etc. There

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Speaker 2: are court documents pertaining to fights he had with family members,

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Speaker 2: but the court record as of now shows no arrests

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Speaker 2: for other violent crimes. Pllice did talk to Chuck about

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Speaker 2: what he was doing before he went to Justin's work

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00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 2: that day. At the time, Chuck was married and had

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Speaker 2: a one year old daughter. He lived about a ten

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Speaker 2: to fifteen minute drive from where Jennifer and Justin lived.

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Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, there was a podcast called Who

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Speaker 2: Killed Jennifer Judd, and the host was deputized as part

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Speaker 2: of her research into the case, so she got access

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Speaker 2: to the case files. On the podcast, she read from

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Speaker 2: Chuck Chance's statements. According to what is said on the podcast,

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Speaker 2: Chuck said that he left home that morning at around

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Speaker 2: seven am and went to a fitness center. Once he

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Speaker 2: was there, he spent about half an hour in a whirlpool,

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Speaker 2: then took a shower and left. Then, he said he

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Speaker 2: went to Jennifer and Justin's house. That's when Chuck told

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Speaker 2: police Jennifer didn't answer the door. Chuck said something else.

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Speaker 2: According to the podcast, he said that he saw a

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Speaker 2: quote a woman who he assumed might be a saleswoman

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Speaker 2: end quote. Chuck went on to say this woman actually

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Speaker 2: came up to his vehicle and asked about Justin and Jennifer.

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Speaker 2: Chuck claimed he told this person that Justin and Jennifer

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Speaker 2: were his friends and they lived in the apartment complex. Now.

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Speaker 2: Chuck claims that this woman was walking up to Jennifer

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Speaker 2: and Justin's apartment and knocking on their door as he

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Speaker 2: drove off. After that, Chuck said he went to Pittsburgh, Kansas.

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Speaker 2: He claimed he stopped at a convenience store at nine am,

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Speaker 2: and then he named a couple of businesses where he

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Speaker 2: said he stopped in. His last stop was the Hicks Corporation.

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Speaker 2: After filling out an application there, he said he left

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Speaker 2: for Justin's work at around nine forty two am. He

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Speaker 2: said he and Justin hung out there until Justin got

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Speaker 2: off work at two thirty PM, and then they drove

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Speaker 2: to Justin and Jennifer's home. According to the podcast, on

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Speaker 2: the next day, May twelfth, Chuck called police and changed

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00:22:27,321 --> 00:22:31,441
Speaker 2: his story slightly. He told the authorities he'd actually left

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Speaker 2: Pittsburgh between ten and ten fifteen am, not nine forty two,

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Speaker 2: and he remembered he'd made a couple of stops on

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Speaker 2: his roof, one in Commerce, where he said he stopped

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Speaker 2: at the bank. He claimed he was at the bank

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Speaker 2: in Commerce at exactly eleven thirty, And he claimed he

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Speaker 2: remember that because at that time he was planning on

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Speaker 2: depositing a check, but the teller was going on their

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Speaker 2: lunch break, so he wasn't able to do it. Instead,

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00:22:56,361 --> 00:22:58,601
Speaker 2: he drove on to the chemical plant and got there

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Speaker 2: at eleven forty five. The rest of the story about

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Speaker 2: his getting to Justin's work right before lunchtime at around

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Speaker 2: eleven forty five, was the same. He said he showed up,

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Speaker 2: stayed until two thirty, and then they went back to

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Speaker 2: Justin's place and found the body. According to a search

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Speaker 2: warrant affidavit which we've seen, police interviewed Chuck. He quote

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Speaker 2: admitted to the touching of certain knives located upon the

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Speaker 2: counter in the kitchen and to being present in the

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Speaker 2: bedroom where certain foreign hairs were discovered end quote. Police

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Speaker 2: were clearly suspicious of Chuck, but that interview, in my opinion,

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Speaker 2: is not a smoking gun. Chuck could have touched the

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Speaker 2: knives and been in the bedroom. He was friends with

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Speaker 2: Jennifer and Justin. That would not have been super out

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Speaker 2: of the ordinary. In fact, told us Chuck had spent

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Speaker 2: a lot of time in that apartment. He said Chuck

386
00:23:48,001 --> 00:23:51,921
Speaker 2: actually helped him and Jennifer move into that place. In

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, it was reported police had tested DNA

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00:23:55,961 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: hair and fingerprints from the crime scene, and based on

389
00:23:59,681 --> 00:24:04,081
Speaker 2: this DNA evidence, police ruled Chuck out because his hair

390
00:24:04,121 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: and prints were not a match to anything from the

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Speaker 2: crime scene.

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Speaker 3: The KBI Hanson Bureau investigations, they had me pretty well

393
00:24:12,801 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 3: convinced of who it was, and since then, I just

394
00:24:20,641 --> 00:24:24,521
Speaker 3: found out within the last year that there's DNA evidence

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00:24:24,601 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 3: that made him not the person. So I'd been thirty

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00:24:32,681 --> 00:24:35,841
Speaker 3: some years with that in my mind, having you know,

397
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Speaker 3: thinking I had figured out, you know, what all had

398
00:24:38,121 --> 00:24:40,321
Speaker 3: happened and stuff, and then that hit me and that

399
00:24:40,441 --> 00:24:42,961
Speaker 3: was pretty pretty rough. So then it just opened up

400
00:24:42,961 --> 00:24:45,561
Speaker 3: all this speculaums in my mind, you know, and you

401
00:24:45,601 --> 00:24:49,561
Speaker 3: know of who it could be. But the DNA has

402
00:24:49,601 --> 00:24:51,561
Speaker 3: been put in in the database and it didn't come

403
00:24:51,641 --> 00:24:56,001
Speaker 3: up with the match. He got cleared by DNA, But still,

404
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,041
Speaker 3: I mean, and it's crazy, but still in my mind

405
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: the way he acted that day and stuff, And I mean,

406
00:25:02,641 --> 00:25:04,721
Speaker 3: who goes to somebody who work and sifts there half

407
00:25:04,721 --> 00:25:06,801
Speaker 3: a shift with them? You know, whether it worked, I mean,

408
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,281
Speaker 3: it just and he'd never done that before, and he

409
00:25:09,401 --> 00:25:13,241
Speaker 3: just acted really strange that day. And there's still in

410
00:25:13,281 --> 00:25:15,201
Speaker 3: my mind there's still something there.

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Speaker 2: So what evidence do they have. Over the years, police

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Speaker 2: in Cherokee County and the Kansas Bureau of Investigation haven't

413
00:25:24,401 --> 00:25:27,521
Speaker 2: talked much about it. They just made some statements saying

414
00:25:27,601 --> 00:25:30,041
Speaker 2: there were items taken and that they have been tested.

415
00:25:31,001 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: According to a May twelfth, nineteen ninety two search warrant,

416
00:25:34,721 --> 00:25:38,281
Speaker 2: eighteen items were taken as evidence from the house. Those

417
00:25:38,361 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: included a bed spread, blue shorts, purple night shorts, a

418
00:25:42,441 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 2: minute made popcan, a knife rack holding eleven knives and

419
00:25:46,161 --> 00:25:49,361
Speaker 2: a pair of scissors, a drawer with kitchen knives, sheet

420
00:25:49,441 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 2: rock pieces, a red coat hanger, hair samples, and a

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00:25:53,441 --> 00:25:56,801
Speaker 2: piece of carpet from the kitchen area. Next week, in

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00:25:56,921 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: Part two, we're going to take another look at this

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00:25:59,641 --> 00:26:02,841
Speaker 2: evidence and try to find out what the test results were,

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00:26:03,481 --> 00:26:06,761
Speaker 2: what they mean, and if there is evidence that can

425
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 2: be retested, and we'll take a look at some of

426
00:26:10,401 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: the other suspects, including a serial killer. Jennifer Judd's case

427
00:26:15,721 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 2: is still unsolved, and there is a five thousand dollars

428
00:26:19,121 --> 00:26:22,561
Speaker 2: reward still active for any information leading to the arrest

429
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Speaker 2: and conviction of Jennifer's killer. If you know anything about

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Judd's murder, no matter how small, authorities asked that

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00:26:30,681 --> 00:26:33,761
Speaker 2: you reach out to contact the Baxter Springs Police Department,

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00:26:34,121 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: Cherokee County Sheriff's Office, or the Kansas Bureau of Investigation.

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00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,441
Speaker 2: Their number is one eight hundred KS crime. That's one

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Speaker 2: eight hundred five seven into seven four six three.

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Speaker 3: And then just after thirty some years of thinking you

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00:26:51,001 --> 00:26:52,801
Speaker 3: had something figured out in your mind, and then you

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00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,481
Speaker 3: find out that that's not the case, and you know,

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00:26:55,641 --> 00:26:59,961
Speaker 3: your mind just goes all over the place. But one

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00:27:00,001 --> 00:27:03,281
Speaker 3: thing that did happen is one night we was in

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00:27:03,321 --> 00:27:07,321
Speaker 3: bed and I woke up and I could tell she

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00:27:07,441 --> 00:27:10,321
Speaker 3: was dreaming. She was kind of jerking your own stuff

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00:27:10,521 --> 00:27:12,641
Speaker 3: in a dream, and she raised up on the bench.

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00:27:12,761 --> 00:27:14,521
Speaker 3: And because you know, back then, I always heard you

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00:27:14,561 --> 00:27:16,321
Speaker 3: don't wake somebody up when they're dreaming, you know, so

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00:27:17,161 --> 00:27:18,801
Speaker 3: I just laid there and she just raised up in

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00:27:18,801 --> 00:27:21,481
Speaker 3: the bed. I said okay, and she said, somebody's after me.

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Speaker 2: I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen

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Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line is a production of School of Humans

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00:27:33,321 --> 00:27:37,081
Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcasts. It's written, narrated by me Catherine Townsend,

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00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,001
Speaker 2: and produced by Etily's Perez Special thanks to Amy Tubbs

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00:27:41,001 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: for her research assistance and James Wheaton for legal Noah

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00:27:44,961 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: Kamer mixed and scored this episode. Our theme song is

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00:27:47,881 --> 00:27:52,201
Speaker 2: by Ben Sale, Executive producers of Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr,

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00:27:52,201 --> 00:27:55,401
Speaker 2: and LC Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone ad free by

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00:27:55,401 --> 00:27:59,041
Speaker 2: subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: If you were interested in seeing documents and materials from

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00:28:02,281 --> 00:28:05,081
Speaker 2: the case, you can follow the show on Instagram at

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00:28:05,321 --> 00:28:08,441
Speaker 2: Helen gonpod. If you have a case you'd like me

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00:28:08,481 --> 00:28:10,761
Speaker 2: and my team to look into, you can reach out

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00:28:10,761 --> 00:28:12,801
Speaker 2: to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six

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Speaker 2: seven eight seven four four six one four five. That's

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Speaker 2: six seven eight seven four four six one four five.

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Speaker 1: School of Humans