1
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,400
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your

2
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:17,239
Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this

3
00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: is Killer Thriller. What if you came home one night

4
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,200
Speaker 1: to find your spouse brutally murdered and within days you

5
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: were the one being accused of the crime. Well, that's

6
00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: exactly what happened to Russ Farrea, a man who was

7
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,879
Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted, spent years in prison, and was later exonerated

8
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: for killing his wife. It all unfolds in The Thing

9
00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,440
Speaker 1: About Pam, a series starring Renee Zellweger based on the

10
00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,520
Speaker 1: real life case, and it is full of outrageous twists,

11
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,360
Speaker 1: shocking events, and ever shifting narratives, and the real life

12
00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 1: case is still playing out in the courts. Today we

13
00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 1: are joined by Glenn Fleschler, who plays the role of

14
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,399
Speaker 1: rus Firea. Glenn, thank you so much for being here today.

15
00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk to you about this show.

16
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,520
Speaker 1: So first, I loved this series so very much, and

17
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: you're so wonderful in it, as is everyone. And you know,

18
00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,200
Speaker 1: it's such a unique kind of tone that sort of

19
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:25,960
Speaker 1: leans into the I think bizarre and you know nature

20
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 1: of the whole crime. But before you were cast, did

21
00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,360
Speaker 1: you know anything about it? Did you had you heard

22
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:32,919
Speaker 1: about Pam Hup or the case?

23
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 2: No, I knew not a thing about it.

24
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 1: Wow, So you just read the script and went, wow,

25
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:39,839
Speaker 1: this isn't is this real?

26
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 2: I don't remember what I read right away. I do

27
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,520
Speaker 2: remember that I got an audition, and you know how

28
00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,200
Speaker 2: sometimes you know, you want to put your best foot forward,

29
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,640
Speaker 2: and sometimes you just don't have time.

30
00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 1: Yep.

31
00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 2: This was one of those times where I think I

32
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:05,240
Speaker 2: was doing like multiple jobs, and uh, this audition came

33
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 2: in and I said, well, this is kind of interesting,

34
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,120
Speaker 2: but I don't really have time to do it. Like

35
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,440
Speaker 2: I almost didn't do it. And then I was like,

36
00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:14,919
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to have to just like do

37
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 2: one take and just get it done. I don't know

38
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,040
Speaker 2: if I had your phones in my ear. There was

39
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,359
Speaker 2: something weird that I did with the phone call. It

40
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,639
Speaker 2: was Russ's nine to one one phone call and it

41
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,800
Speaker 2: was a lot of historyonics.

42
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: And oh my gosh.

43
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember thinking this is terrible. This is terrible,

44
00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,959
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like I almost send it

45
00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,080
Speaker 2: right like this is all I had time to do.

46
00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes you got to let yourself look and

47
00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 2: be like, well, this is this is.

48
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:46,480
Speaker 1: What I gues, this is what I got.

49
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,480
Speaker 2: In the running. But I ended up getting the job.

50
00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,440
Speaker 2: And in fact, over the months that we were working

51
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,560
Speaker 2: on this, from time to time that producers would talk

52
00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 2: about my audition, they'd be like, it was such a

53
00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 2: great audition and I would cringe because I just, my god,

54
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 2: so terrible. And I knew that I could do a

55
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,280
Speaker 2: better job once I, you know, really prepare for the role.

56
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,240
Speaker 2: But right I never, I just was it was just

57
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 2: a good faith that I got that.

58
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so funny. There's something like that's

59
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, great about that for us to remember sometimes

60
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 1: we're meant for certain parts and that's just the way

61
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,520
Speaker 1: it is. And sort of you're you're a built irnate

62
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 1: ability and your first instinct is the right one and

63
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,679
Speaker 1: it's great, you know, So it's a good lesson for

64
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:31,360
Speaker 1: your lesson.

65
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also like, you can't get cast if you

66
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 2: don't put yourself in the running. So sometimes I think

67
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 2: like I have to be right. I'm sorry, I got

68
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,520
Speaker 2: to get it perfect, and sometimes you're just you know,

69
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 2: what they're looking for.

70
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I firmly believe that. So okay, So

71
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 1: just for the people that are maybe unfamiliar with the

72
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,360
Speaker 1: details of the case, we'll just like do a quick

73
00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,680
Speaker 1: run through of what they are. In December of twenty eleven,

74
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 1: this woman, Pam Hup, she is a house flipper, married

75
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,640
Speaker 1: woman in Missouri. She becomes a sole beneficiary of her

76
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: friend Betsy Furrea's life insurance policy. Five days later, Betsy

77
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 1: is murdered in her home and stabbed multiple times. They

78
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,640
Speaker 1: arrest the husband your character, mainly based on kind of

79
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 1: the things that Pam tells them about him, about their relationship,

80
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 1: et cetera. So he serves three years in prison, then

81
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: he is exonerated. Then Pam Hup kills this other man,

82
00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,280
Speaker 1: Lewis Gumpenberger, in her home, claiming self defense. She's charged

83
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: with first degree murder, and it just goes on and

84
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:45,279
Speaker 1: on and on, like the insanity of this person is right,

85
00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,280
Speaker 1: and then probably her mother, like she's really relentless in

86
00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 1: her kind of pursuit of But we've just got like

87
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about a lot of narcissists on

88
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,520
Speaker 1: this show, because oftentimes the these sorts of killers are

89
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 1: incredibly narcissistic, and you know, she acts as though it's

90
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,000
Speaker 1: not her fault that she I mean, she quite literally

91
00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 1: makes up lies, but then you know, always sort of

92
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 1: claiming that she's injured and that it's someone else's problem.

93
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 1: And I mean, when you realize that this was a

94
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 1: real story, what was your like? Did you could you

95
00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 1: believe it? What did you think?

96
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 2: I mean, there was so much to it, and Pam

97
00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 2: Hupp herself was such an extreme character, and also so

98
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,919
Speaker 2: was Russell. And what I was attracted to was the

99
00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 2: fact that normally I am the guy who commits the.

100
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,479
Speaker 1: Murderer, right, That's what I was thinking, Yeah.

101
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 2: Murderers, and so I was like, in this case, I

102
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:53,520
Speaker 2: didn't do it, So that was attractive, right. But the

103
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 2: main part, the main gist of the experience for me,

104
00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,479
Speaker 2: was talking to our showrunner Jenny Klein. I had the

105
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,200
Speaker 2: good sense to call her and just say, like, I

106
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 2: haven't really talked to anyone about this show. I'm supposed

107
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 2: to go to New Orleans and shoot it. We had

108
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:12,320
Speaker 2: gotten postponed because of a hurricane that happened. Oh, things

109
00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 2: got delayed a month, and I just sort of felt

110
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 2: like I haven't really I've been doing my own you know,

111
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 2: watching the dateline stuff, whatever research I could get my

112
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,040
Speaker 2: hands on at the time, but I thought I should

113
00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,200
Speaker 2: talk to somebody, and luckily I called Jenny and we

114
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 2: had this great conversation and she said, you know, I

115
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,000
Speaker 2: think you should meet Russell Faria, who was the character.

116
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,520
Speaker 1: Yes, so did you tell me so?

117
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. So she put us in touch and we ended

118
00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 2: up having hours and hours of phone conversations over several days.

119
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 2: He was actually on a road trip. It was like

120
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 2: driving across country, and so we would have to time

121
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,760
Speaker 2: it out so that he could be somewhere where he

122
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 2: would have you know, Wi Fi or something. So we

123
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,039
Speaker 2: did it in these kind of increments, and then we'd

124
00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 2: have these like really long talks for hours and I

125
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,920
Speaker 2: was just scribbling away, and you know, I'm not an interviewer,

126
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 2: but I was like, I got to really get focused

127
00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,559
Speaker 2: because I want to get all the good stuff. Luckily,

128
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,240
Speaker 2: he made it so easy because he was so forthcoming

129
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,640
Speaker 2: with all them. You know, I had to there was

130
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:13,320
Speaker 2: no way around it. I had to go into like

131
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 2: the worst details of his life, right death of his

132
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 2: wife and the subsequent horror that he went through, and

133
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,320
Speaker 2: there was no way to not ask him about those things.

134
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,840
Speaker 2: But He really made it so easy and was so forthcoming,

135
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 2: and my big not reservation, but my like the challenge

136
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,400
Speaker 2: of playing the role was you know, you look at

137
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 2: this from the outset, from the outside, and you think,

138
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 2: how can this guy have gone this long? For instance,

139
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,640
Speaker 2: he didn't ask for a lawyer. Yes, he gurrogated him

140
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,480
Speaker 2: for twenty four hours straight.

141
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,680
Speaker 1: Right, That's what I was wondering too.

142
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,520
Speaker 2: And he didn't, you know, he didn't really protest that strongly.

143
00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 2: He just kind of let it happen to him. And

144
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 2: so that, you know, it comes off being like, you know,

145
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 2: how could somebody be this kind of naive or and

146
00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 2: when I talked to him, I just you know, it

147
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 2: really was a matter of he had such faith, he

148
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,920
Speaker 2: had such faith in the legal system and that it

149
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,600
Speaker 2: was going to come out, and so he just let

150
00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 2: them bamboozle him basically, right. But then it was that

151
00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 2: same faith that got him through several years in prison,

152
00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 2: being wrongly in prison before he got that appeal and

153
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,840
Speaker 2: was able to get his name clear. So that was

154
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,559
Speaker 2: all really fascinating and useful.

155
00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,920
Speaker 1: Did he say anything about because I remember thinking he

156
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,679
Speaker 1: you know, if he was he had been out with

157
00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,400
Speaker 1: friends at the friend's house playing games and you know,

158
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 1: like a sort of normal gathering that he had with

159
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,360
Speaker 1: his friends, and you know, drinking a little or getting

160
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 1: a little high, and then that kind of like that

161
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 1: sort of shock has got to have some impact. And

162
00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,720
Speaker 1: then not sleeping and staying up, and I mean did

163
00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 1: he talk at all about like I think about, you know,

164
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 1: if I have a little too much wine at a

165
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: friend's house and come home and come to something like that,

166
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,080
Speaker 1: like it must be like you can't even believe your eyes.

167
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:12,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean that was.

168
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 2: Part of the factoring in of playing it all because

169
00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 2: if you listen to the real nine to one one call,

170
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 2: it does seem you know, it's what Pam hump and

171
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,680
Speaker 2: what the prosecuting attorneys played off of that. It seemed

172
00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 2: like a performance because it was so hysterical. The nine

173
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:34,040
Speaker 2: to one one operator thought it was a woman at first,

174
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,240
Speaker 2: and that was what I had to do in the audition.

175
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,080
Speaker 2: So you want it to be true to life, but

176
00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 2: also as extreme as it is. I mean, if you

177
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 2: played it really the way that when you listen to it,

178
00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,080
Speaker 2: if you played it straight like, no one would believe it, right.

179
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 2: But of course it's hard for any of us to

180
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:54,080
Speaker 2: put ourselves in such a horrifying situation, and he came

181
00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,840
Speaker 2: home to such a grizzly, extreme scene. So it was

182
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 2: just like that was where we were starting from. That's

183
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:02,800
Speaker 2: basically the start of the show and the kind of

184
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 2: right upsetting incident.

185
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 1: Did he say why? I was also struck why he

186
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 1: said on the call, And maybe it was just because

187
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,320
Speaker 1: you know, he was befuddled, and I don't know what

188
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,600
Speaker 1: anyone would say, but he says that she, his wife,

189
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,320
Speaker 1: killed herself. And it seems like did he say why?

190
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,440
Speaker 1: That was the instinct that he instead of saying someone

191
00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:26,960
Speaker 1: killed her.

192
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,319
Speaker 2: She had had a cancer diagnosis, she had struggled with depression.

193
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't remember now, but I think there

194
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 2: were possibly earlier attempts, so that's where his mind went.

195
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:45,440
Speaker 2: There were slashes across her arms, right wrists, but I

196
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,400
Speaker 2: mean that was also part of the confounding nature of

197
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,040
Speaker 2: the interrogation, was that she had been stabbed so many

198
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:58,199
Speaker 2: times and it was so much blood. And what it

199
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,360
Speaker 2: turned out was that I think that a lot of

200
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:10,199
Speaker 2: the wounds were post mortem, so very staged, right, right.

201
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,559
Speaker 2: I didn't No, I don't think he could process what

202
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:13,960
Speaker 2: he was.

203
00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 1: Right, right. It really is so fascinating to me because

204
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 1: it reveals how innocent people like that. To me just

205
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,160
Speaker 1: strikes at all of the actual facts strike me as

206
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,320
Speaker 1: an innocent person, like that's how they would respond, but

207
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 1: how those things can be twisted into making it seem

208
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: like he's guilty. It's just like it's crazy to me.

209
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 2: It was a sort of a perfect storm with this,

210
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,280
Speaker 2: you know, testimony from Pam who was manipulating things behind

211
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,720
Speaker 2: the scenes, but also a process computer who wanted things

212
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 2: to go a certain way, and her relationship with a

213
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 2: judge who right relationship. There were a lot of things

214
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,520
Speaker 2: that shouldn't have gone on that went on, and you know,

215
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:18,640
Speaker 2: by detector tests and trying to coerce a confession. Well

216
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 2: it's the case, you know, we portray it in the

217
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 2: show like, oh the husband did it, like that's what

218
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 2: the cops are saying, because that's what usually happens. And

219
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,440
Speaker 2: so it just fell into that narrative, and unfortunately Russ

220
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,320
Speaker 2: was so trusting that he didn't fight it in such

221
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,720
Speaker 2: a way that maybe some things would.

222
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,360
Speaker 1: Have come to light sooner sooner, a.

223
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,880
Speaker 2: Terrific alibi, and they kind of.

224
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:49,520
Speaker 1: Just blew past that, right, that was very striking to

225
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 1: me that it's there were four or five people that said, no,

226
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:53,480
Speaker 1: he was.

227
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 2: With us same night, and then he went to an

228
00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 2: RB's and there was a receipt timestamped that he had

229
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 2: been at this Arby's. We depicted it in the show

230
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 2: of me, yeah, I ordering uh these sandwiches. Hey. In fact,

231
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 2: we have a group text the actors in our show

232
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,120
Speaker 2: called Arby's and Game Night because with Arby's and Game

233
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,200
Speaker 2: Night as like that, right defense, and.

234
00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:24,079
Speaker 3: So so they they also portray or at least Pam

235
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,560
Speaker 3: talks about him Russ as being having a temper and

236
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,960
Speaker 3: that he's you know, a little dark and brooding, and

237
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 3: he doesn't it was that?

238
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,199
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that accurate? Did he say that was true?

239
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,320
Speaker 1: And then even the kids a little bit saying, well,

240
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: the kids don't deny it.

241
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 3: I guess it's sort of a gray area.

242
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 2: Led by the nose to make that testimony, you have

243
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 2: to ask them. I don't remember if Russ copped to

244
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,280
Speaker 2: any sort of dark behavior. I mean, I know that

245
00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 2: he and Betsy had, you know, had an on again,

246
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 2: off again situation. They had gone through troubles in their marriage,

247
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,360
Speaker 2: and Pam definitely tried to play off of that, but apparently,

248
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 2: according to the people who knew them, they were in

249
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:16,000
Speaker 2: a good place when these events happened, and Russ was

250
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,720
Speaker 2: very close with his stepdaughters that he raised from the

251
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 2: age of roughly five. I think this one maybe, and

252
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 2: and that was just a terrible rupture in their family,

253
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,800
Speaker 2: and they were pushed to testify against him, as was

254
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 2: Betsy's mother loved Russ, and between Pam and the authorities

255
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 2: and the prosecutors, they kind of convinced her that he

256
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 2: was guilty. And she sends a message at some point

257
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 2: through his attorney that she's so sorry.

258
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean in their kid you know, there

259
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:05,640
Speaker 1: their kids and they're young, and it's it's all really tragic.

260
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,160
Speaker 1: I've read also that that he doesn't speak to that

261
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 1: he still hasn't spoken to the.

262
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 2: Children as of the conclusion of our show, and I

263
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,520
Speaker 2: guess around when the show aired, which was my last

264
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 2: contact with people from the story, they had not reconciled.

265
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 2: He hadn't spoken to them, and I did ask him

266
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 2: about that, and that was probably the place where he

267
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 2: was the most clammed up. But yeah, I felt that

268
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,400
Speaker 2: he could not ridge that gap at that point. I

269
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,800
Speaker 2: think right felt like such an extreme betrayal, but I

270
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,520
Speaker 2: believe it was very painful for all involved. And our

271
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 2: showrunner Jenny certainly leaned into that part of the story.

272
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 4: She really wanted getting an Adlon who played daughter and

273
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 4: I to have, you know, for that to be a

274
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,440
Speaker 4: significant part of the story their rupture right right.

275
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 1: And there is a beautiful part in the in the

276
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: end with Russ and his current wife. I think they're married, yes, Carol,

277
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 1: that so, and is that part as.

278
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 2: Of the time of the show. I don't know what

279
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:22,160
Speaker 2: happened after that. Yeah, A very coincidental thing that she

280
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 2: she became a witness in the Gumpenberger murder because Pam

281
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 2: showed up at her house trying to lure her and

282
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,760
Speaker 2: did lure her into her car need to be someone

283
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 2: from dateline and offering her money to go ride with her,

284
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 2: and as though she was going to pay her tax

285
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 2: free or some voiceover work or something to do with dateline.

286
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,960
Speaker 1: Using date Line which comes from so diabolical.

287
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 2: This woman eventually smelled a rat and saved her life

288
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,080
Speaker 2: by getting out of this car before the Gumpenberger incident.

289
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 2: And then she somehow got introduced to Russ through one

290
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 2: of his game like friends, knew her was a neighbor

291
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,679
Speaker 2: or something, and then they ended up becoming engaged of

292
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 2: dating for years after that.

293
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Yes, they're saying that they are still

294
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,800
Speaker 1: together and they were just outside of the courthouse. I

295
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 1: guess where Pam is being. They have a new the

296
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,520
Speaker 1: new trial, the trial for the murder of Betsy. It's

297
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: very hard to keep track of this woman's crimes. But

298
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,959
Speaker 1: this is, uh, they were spotted together. It was this

299
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,439
Speaker 1: beautiful scene of you know, it's this is this is

300
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:37,919
Speaker 1: the thing that's always like, uh, there's always something or

301
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,680
Speaker 1: I should say, I always look for something that's beautiful

302
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: and hopeful in the kind of the humanity part of

303
00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,760
Speaker 1: all of these stories. And that just seems like a

304
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 1: nice one that those two, you know, found each other.

305
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 1: So this the let's talk a little bit about the

306
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,920
Speaker 1: So this the life insurance part of the whole thing.

307
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 1: So she so not just that Pam. So she became

308
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: the beneficiary of Betsy's life insurance. And then but the

309
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: explanation around all of that kept changing, and I just

310
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,760
Speaker 1: and that the kids she was supposed to set up

311
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:25,560
Speaker 1: a an account for the children, which they never received

312
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 1: the money, and the fact that all of these things

313
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,679
Speaker 1: did not become true evidence in the first case is like,

314
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,000
Speaker 1: I can't understand any of that. It just makes no sense.

315
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,040
Speaker 2: Right. So they had a separate case that was a

316
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 2: sibil case that the daughters sued Pam, and that's where

317
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 2: there's a lot of video which has become sort of

318
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,879
Speaker 2: iconic video of Pam acting out in all these different

319
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 2: ways in that deposition.

320
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,440
Speaker 1: And that's the whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa who.

321
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 2: That's which we recreated in our show. But and you

322
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 2: see at the end of the series they show the

323
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 2: real footage and I'm sure it's everywhere online if you

324
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,400
Speaker 2: wanted to see that. But yeah, just for going whoa

325
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,359
Speaker 2: whoa whoa whoa whoa, and a lot of other things

326
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,959
Speaker 2: and a lot of like real testiness with the attorneys

327
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 2: and you know, erratic behavior. And she was just used

328
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 2: to changing her story at every turn. She would just

329
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 2: make up new testimony. Suddenly she and Betsy had a

330
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 2: love relationship.

331
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: That was a thing that came later, right, right, I

332
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,360
Speaker 1: forgot about that.

333
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 2: We just had a love you know, this love connection,

334
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 2: and that just came out of nowhere down the road.

335
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 2: It wasn't. In her original testimony, there were a lot

336
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 2: of things like that, she just you know, and she

337
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 2: had put a typed a letter on Betsy's computer that

338
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 2: was supposed to be from Betsy to Pam or to

339
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: somebody saying like that Russ was abusing her and all right,

340
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,919
Speaker 2: and they were able to use that against her in

341
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,479
Speaker 2: the trial. They were able to prove that it wasn't uh,

342
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 2: it wasn't natural to a computer that somehow.

343
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: Right, it was like from it it was like the

344
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: difference between like a MAC and a and a you know,

345
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 1: a PC or something like.

346
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,919
Speaker 2: It didn't He was trying to make it look like

347
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 2: Pam had written all the stuff but then never sent

348
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,200
Speaker 2: the letter, and she'd done a couple of things like that, right,

349
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 2: and then claimed like why would I, you know, if

350
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 2: I was going to do it, you know, my mother

351
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:33,080
Speaker 2: has five hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy, like if

352
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 2: I needed the money, you know, she kind of gave

353
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 2: herself it was.

354
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 1: A way, and it turns out I do need that money.

355
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 5: So now she's I can't the whole the whole letter's

356
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 5: part of it too, Like that one and then there's

357
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 5: another letter, like when she says in the in the show,

358
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 5: she says, after killing.

359
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: Rumpenberg, I'm never gonna remember his name. Rumpenberger, right with

360
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 1: a G, Yeah with a gg when she killed After

361
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: she kills Gumpenberger and says to the police, you might

362
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: want to check about there's a little letter sticking out

363
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: of his pocket. You know, that was like she clearly

364
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: wrote saying, you know, seem I mean, she.

365
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: Could have gotten away scott free because I think she

366
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 2: guessed that she had this terrible response to the idea

367
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 2: that Russ had gotten out of prison because the case

368
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: would have been left alone at that point. But then

369
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: she tried to fabricate this whole story where Russ had

370
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 2: hired this man to kill her. Calls nine one one,

371
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: so you hear them on this nine one one call,

372
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 2: and then she kills him in cold blood, I mean.

373
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 1: Allegedly, allegedly. Let's talk about the mom for a second.

374
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: That her death. So her mother was discovered dead after

375
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: falling from the balcony at her assisted living home, and

376
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 1: then they also found an extraordinary amount of ambient in

377
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: her system, like ten times the amount that she should

378
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 1: have or something so do you think that she's responsible.

379
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: She was the last person who saw her, and yeah,

380
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 2: all the ambient and then some concocted like faulty railing

381
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: right well, certainly seemed like it, but that was not

382
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: At the time of our show. That case had not

383
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: been prosecuted. Maybe it was being investigated still or I'm

384
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: not sure where the authorities left that case.

385
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: But right I think it's still being investigated right now,

386
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: it'll probably be up and coming. It's what's so disturbing,

387
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: obviously about her is that she comes across as so

388
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: ordinary at first and so actually congenial in some regard,

389
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: and then but she's obviously deeply ill. Were there any

390
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: were there moments when you were shooting this where you

391
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: felt like, I can't believe that this is real.

392
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: I mean, that was most of it. Yeah, but it

393
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: was so specific. The details were so specific that it

394
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: had to be real, because who could make this up

395
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 2: except that except her? You know that right about things

396
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: was so strange. But also I'm a lifelong New Yorker,

397
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 2: so you know, that's why I said about trying to

398
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: get into Russ's head. I was like, you know, I

399
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: would be so naturally skeptical of everything that was going on.

400
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: So the idea rightsting and you know, of the legal

401
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: system and everything and everyone and even says like, oh

402
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: to his lawyer, Oh yeah, Pam Hope, she's a nice lady.

403
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: I don't think he really knew her that well or

404
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 2: thought that much about her. That was so out of

405
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 2: nowhere for most of these people that, right. I think

406
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: she was trying upon herself off as like a better

407
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 2: friend than she actually was.

408
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: Right, So that's what. Yeah, I was curious about.

409
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: It, and somehow convinced her to or however she manipulated

410
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: that insurance policy. I don't know. I don't remember the

411
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 2: details of that. But nobody saw her coming because he

412
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: mid West, and people don't be that way, or you

413
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: don't expect them to. And I think it's just one

414
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: of those small towns where people are a lot more trusting.

415
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: Right, It's like a similar I just spoke with doctor

416
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: Ramslan who's a criminologist and an author and a professor,

417
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: and she did this over ten year interview with the

418
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: BTK killer, Dennis Raider, and I mean that is wow.

419
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: But he is similar in the sense of was like

420
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 1: very much a member of the community. You know, was

421
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: involved with everybody to some degree, and you know, just

422
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 1: sort of folded himself into the fabric. But did Russ

423
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: say that they were anything about how you know, his

424
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: relationship with her, because it did seem like he didn't

425
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: really even know her that well.

426
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 2: Well, I mean we had lines in the show where

427
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: she accuses him of smoking around Betsy even though she

428
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 2: had cancer, and he said, like, she's never seen me smoke,

429
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 2: he says to one of the lawyers, like it really,

430
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 2: you know, it was a cordial relationship. But I just

431
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: don't think he really thought much about her or really

432
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 2: knew her. Just thought she was this nice lady that

433
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 2: Betsy used to work with, and then suddenly like she

434
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: insinuated her way to their lives in this way that

435
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: he wasn't even aware of. But I know that by

436
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: the end he really wanted to see her put away

437
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: and he wanted to be there for he wanted to

438
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: be involved in this trial once it was reopened.

439
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: Oh I bet, I bet. Did he have any feelings

440
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: about the Alfred It's Alfred right?

441
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: Is that what alf Alfred plea?

442
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, the plead where you do not admit your

443
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: guilt but you plead guilty.

444
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: Yes, I only learned about that through the show. I'd

445
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 2: never heard of that before.

446
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: I had never heard of that either, So yeah.

447
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: It's very consistent her character that in confessing, she would

448
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: do it in a sort of hot, haughty way.

449
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and not admitting that she's guilty.

450
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: It's almost like a political move, right. Yeah. I don't

451
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: think that was satisfying to a lot of people, including

452
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: most of Betsy's family.

453
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure, right, But you know.

454
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: It wasn't satisfying or to the new regime of politicians

455
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: that took over at that time, right, because it made

456
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: a lot of people look bad. It made that whole.

457
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: It certainly made it look like a little bit of

458
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 1: a circus in terms of their whole you know, their

459
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: court system and there in the police department and all

460
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: of it. So, yes, the definition is it allows a

461
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: defendant to plead guilty while maintaining their innocence too, basically, Yes, yes, yes,

462
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. Oh my gosh, well, I this has been

463
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: super fascinating. Have you ever played anyone like this? I

464
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: know you always do play very scary. You're usually the

465
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: other the other slide characters.

466
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: From time to time. But this was a great departure

467
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: and it was almost like the opposite challenge, like I said,

468
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: because he was so trusting and had so much faith.

469
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: It was almost the opposite of like what you were

470
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: talking about about. Some of these characters we know from

471
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: true true crime, but also people have played in fictional

472
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: crime where they're either hiding in plain sight or you know,

473
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 2: have all these suterior motives. And here was somebody who's

474
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: like so banking on the truth to set him free

475
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: every turn, so trying to trust that and traumatized by

476
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: the way the system worked. You see him actually get

477
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: called in. I guess it was after them. It's later

478
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: in the series. I think it's after the Gumpenberger situation

479
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: because Russ's name was invoked in that scenario that right concted.

480
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: They called him in. He was like, I'm in Florida

481
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: and they were like, you have to come back to Missouri.

482
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: And that was a great scene.

483
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: He's traumatized, you know, in his lyric saying it's gonna

484
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: be okay, We're going to wait this out. We're not

485
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: going anywhere. We're just going to wait here and let

486
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: them clear you. But you know, you could imagine how terrifying. Oh,

487
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: I've already gone through that situation where the system completely

488
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: let you down.

489
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally failed him. And why would he you know,

490
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: he assume it could just happen again. Yeah, he does

491
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: seem when I've watched a couple of interviews of him

492
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: post you know, more more current, and he does just

493
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: seems like such a like a kind hearted person. You know,

494
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: he seems like a very somehow has come through this.

495
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: You know, he was not bitter.

496
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly, That's a great way to say it.

497
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: Years after. I mean, obviously the legal proceedings were still

498
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: happening involving various aspects of this case, but it had

499
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 2: been a while since he had done time and all that,

500
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,239
Speaker 2: he'd gotten his life together and had love in his

501
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: life and all of that. But obviously the family hadn't

502
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 2: completely recovered, and there were there was a lot of pain,

503
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 2: but he was not bitter. He learned from the experience,

504
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was just like a real man of faith.

505
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's an admirable response most certainly.

506
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: As far as what I could tell enough. I don't

507
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: want to act like I'm an expert on him, because

508
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, so talking over a few days. Sure, sure,

509
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: very generous of him to do that and be so

510
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: to be so open with me, and it was in

511
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: valuable of course.

512
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I I've loved talking about this and you

513
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: can stream the show. The thing about Pam, it's a

514
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: really really uh incredibly well done series and you're terrific

515
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: in it, Rene Cellware, terrific in it. Everybody, the whole

516
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: cast is great. What can we see you in next?

517
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: What are you doing? What are you working on?

518
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: What do you want to tell us? In the New

519
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 2: York area, I'm seeing Romeo and Juliet inral bar playing

520
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: a little capula Juliet's father.

521
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: Stop it are you doing Shakespeare? You're doing the Shakespeare

522
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: in the Park this summer.

523
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Classic.

524
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: I'm a New Yorker, so I'm from New York, so

525
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: I this is like, oh, I'm so excited for you.

526
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: The third time it's been done, oddly, even though Shakespeare

527
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: and the Park has been going on since like the

528
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: late fifties, early since third production. I was kind of

529
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: shocked to learn that because it seems like a play

530
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: that's done all the time. So yeah, we're a few

531
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: weeks into rehearsals now, so that's that's the next big thing.

532
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: Ah that is when what are the dates? When does

533
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: that run?

534
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: It starts in late May and it runs till June

535
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: twenty eighth, so it's early part of summer. Oh.

536
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to be there for a couple of days.

537
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to get myself in there. It's

538
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: very hard. It's hard to get seats for that free.

539
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: So that's the great part. But you do have to wait.

540
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: You have to wait, right.

541
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: I might have to get my sleeping bag.

542
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: And wait for tickets and right right.

543
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 1: Oh, that's such a wonderful experience. I'm so excited for you.

544
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: It'll be amazing.

545
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

546
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for talking with me, Glenn.

547
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: I hope we get a chance to do it again.

548
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: Maybe you know, you'll play a serial killer next time.

549
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 5: Make a chat again, very much,