Speaker 1: Fuck him.
Speaker 2: That's what Flavio says as he hangs up the phone
Speaker 2: with Massimo Romagnoli. Fuck him. After DEA agent's arrests Flavio,
Speaker 2: he agrees to help them lure Massimo to Montenegro.
Speaker 3: He told me that the client had brought the money
Speaker 3: to Montenegro.
Speaker 2: Here's Massimo, or rather the voice actor who's been reading
Speaker 2: Massimo's court testimony.
Speaker 3: And so we found an agreement so that I would
Speaker 3: also go to Montenegro to collect the money. I informed
Speaker 3: him that I found a ticket for Podgorica, Montenegro, and
Speaker 3: we would meet there.
Speaker 2: The next morning. Massimo flies into Montenegro.
Speaker 3: Right after passport control, I was arrested by the police.
Speaker 2: US authorities announced the arrests of Flavior Georgescu, Christian Vntilla,
Speaker 2: and Massimo Romagnoli on charges of conspiring to provide material
Speaker 2: support to terrorists. The terrorists in this case were Juan
Speaker 2: and the other FARC guys, who were, of course not
Speaker 2: really terrorists but DEA informants. Under federal conspiracy law, a
Speaker 2: defendant doesn't have to help actual terrorists. The defendant just
Speaker 2: needs to think he's helping terrorists. Well, the arrest don't
Speaker 2: get much attention in the US. They're big news in Romania.
Speaker 4: As you are. Virgil, Flavio, Giorgesco farc Sant.
Speaker 2: And in Italy. Flavio, Christian and Massimo are all about
Speaker 2: to be extradited to America to face federal criminal charges.
Speaker 2: If convicted, all three men could spend the rest of
Speaker 2: their lives in prison. I'm Trevor Aronson from Western Sound
Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcast. This is Alphabet Boys, Episode nine. Tomorrow,
Speaker 2: I'm going to rob the bank. Flavio, Christian and Massimo
Speaker 2: are thrown into holding cells in Montenegro until American officials
Speaker 2: can sort out their extradition to New York. At first,
Speaker 2: Flavio isn't too concerned about any of this. He could
Speaker 2: have persuaded the DEA guys who arrested him that he's
Speaker 2: working with the CIA, but he helped them lure Massimo
Speaker 2: to Montenegro anyway, And besides, Flavia figures the DEA and
Speaker 2: the Justice Department will talk to their counterparts at the
Speaker 2: CIA and everything will be sorted out soon enough. They'll
Speaker 2: all realize that Flavio's on their team. How else could
Speaker 2: they explain the call to the CIA.
Speaker 4: In twenty twelve, good afternoon.
Speaker 3: How can I help you?
Speaker 1: Hi, I reminded me, and I was.
Speaker 5: Born in Roma.
Speaker 2: Flavio, as you know, now tells the CIA agents everything
Speaker 2: about Andy, about Wan, about the arms deal, about the
Speaker 2: whole crime before he actually commits it.
Speaker 1: He's like, U core Rhino nine one. You let them know. Tomorrow,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna rob the bank in fifth Avenue City Bank
Speaker 1: in the corner. This is my social security, my name,
Speaker 1: my plates on the car, my V number, and I
Speaker 1: have this shotgun and I have this one will be
Speaker 1: nine o'clock. You're gonna go tomorrow to rob that bank.
Speaker 1: You have to be nuts, totally nuts.
Speaker 2: Flavio's analogy works. It's hard to argue that it doesn't. Honestly,
Speaker 2: who would be crazy enough to call the police tell
Speaker 2: them the entire plan to rob a bank and then
Speaker 2: go rob that bank. That's essentially what Flavio did, but
Speaker 2: with a much more serious crime. His was an international
Speaker 2: arms deal worth millions of dollars and involving the FARC
Speaker 2: at the time, a US designated foreign terrorist organization. To
Speaker 2: Flavio in the immediate days after his arrest, this all
Speaker 2: just seems like a temporary misunderstanding. The CIA didn't know
Speaker 2: what the DEA was doing, and neither the CIA nor
Speaker 2: the DEA knows about Flavio's previous work for the FBI,
Speaker 2: So he's stuck temporarily in the muck of bureaucracy, but
Speaker 2: eventually he thinks the FEDS will figure it out. We're
Speaker 2: talking about Americans here.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: Locked up in Montenegro, Flavio says he receives several visits
Speaker 2: from US officials. They're with the State Department, or so
Speaker 2: they say.
Speaker 1: They was keep coming from Washington to interview me and
Speaker 1: the ward them from that prison. He was asking me
Speaker 1: who you are and I said nobody. I'm just a
Speaker 1: consulting businessman. And he said, no, you are not a
Speaker 1: consulting businessman. Because these people they come with a private
Speaker 1: JIT and it's the State Department private JIT and sometimes
Speaker 1: as they come escorted by US military jets, as I
Speaker 1: don't know who they are, and they came over there
Speaker 1: for four or five times. I give them all the
Speaker 1: information about arms, laundry and everything, and they let me
Speaker 1: burn over there like an animal.
Speaker 2: By left them over there like an animal. Flavio is
Speaker 2: referring to the conditions of a cell in Montenegro restayed
Speaker 2: for a little more than two months during the winter
Speaker 2: of twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: I was physically and shically torture over there. Like they
Speaker 1: opened the window from the cell and they keep it
Speaker 1: open day and night. There was so much snow outside,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't close it because it was so high,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't sleep. I couldn't do anything, and they
Speaker 1: keep the lights on all the time, and so much
Speaker 1: noise over there. I couldn't sleep. And when I was
Speaker 1: trying to use the bedroom one time, when I got there,
Speaker 1: I was seeing on the toilet and a rat jump
Speaker 1: from the toilet on my butt. I started to scream
Speaker 1: so bad, and they came inside with a broomsick and
Speaker 1: they killed a rat over there in the toilet. They
Speaker 1: break the toilet to the ceramics toilet and the bailift.
Speaker 2: To this day, Flavia tells me he can't sit on
Speaker 2: a toilet. He has to put his feet on a
Speaker 2: seat and squat so we can always keep an eye
Speaker 2: on the water below him. Another rat's never going to
Speaker 2: surprise him. Flavio says he couldn't understand why all this
Speaker 2: was happening to him, A good man thrown into a cold,
Speaker 2: dark cell in Eastern Europe. I've mentioned already that I
Speaker 2: struggle to determine what's true in Flavia's story. I really do.
Speaker 2: I find myself wanting to believe his claim that he
Speaker 2: called the CIA because he felt a duty to help
Speaker 2: see something say something Flavio believed. And certainly there's evidence
Speaker 2: that appears to support this. Why else, as just one example,
Speaker 2: would Flavio have agreed to Lord Massimo to Montenegro no
Speaker 2: strings attached. The most reasonable explanation to me is that
Speaker 2: Flavio believed he was on the same team as the DEA.
Speaker 2: But then there's something else that throws me to the
Speaker 2: other side questioning Flavio's story, and that is Christian Venttilla's
Speaker 2: account of what happens next. In late February twenty fifteen,
Speaker 2: following their detention in Montenegro, Flavio, Christian, and Massimo are
Speaker 2: flown to New York on a private jet. Flavio is
Speaker 2: seated next to Christian for the eight hour trip.
Speaker 6: Told me that previously, during the activity in this deal,
Speaker 6: he called the CIA and informed them about this activity.
Speaker 2: This is Christian from escort testimony.
Speaker 6: He told me that the CIA's answer was not to
Speaker 6: get implicated and mind his own business. And he also
Speaker 6: told me that when we got arrested, he told the
Speaker 6: agent who arrested us the same thing. So during the
Speaker 6: eight hours he told me that based on this, we
Speaker 6: should build a story that we weren't trying to do
Speaker 6: a deal with them. We were just trying to collect
Speaker 6: information to give it to the government so we can
Speaker 6: use it as a defense.
Speaker 2: Christian claims that Flavio on the plane tells him that
Speaker 2: he knew the CIA didn't want him to get involved.
Speaker 2: Christian suggests that Flavio's intent was to use the CIA
Speaker 2: call as a cover store in case he ever got caught.
Speaker 2: But christian story is suspicious too, because apparently he doesn't
Speaker 2: know that the CIA call is ambiguous. There are no
Speaker 2: clear cut don't do anything on this instructions from the
Speaker 2: CIA on the recordings. The call didn't happen the way
Speaker 2: Christian claims Flavio described it. So if what Christian is
Speaker 2: saying is true, why would Flavio say this. It doesn't
Speaker 2: really make sense. So Christian's claim just raises more questions. Questions.
Speaker 2: I can't ask Christian because you won't talk to me.
Speaker 6: I don't want to do this thing, and I only
Speaker 6: want to tell the truth. And actually that's what I
Speaker 6: told the agents in the plane.
Speaker 2: In any case, Christian refuses to go along with Flavio's
Speaker 2: plan to sink their stories part of a joint defense.
Speaker 6: He told me, if I don't agree to work with
Speaker 6: him in this way, he should. I should help him too,
Speaker 6: because he worked previously with higher agency than DEA, and
Speaker 6: his wife is running around trying to get in touch
Speaker 6: with those agencies. That agency he worked for is going
Speaker 6: to save him.
Speaker 2: Christian is referring to the FBI. Flavio tells Christian that
Speaker 2: not only had he called the CIA, but that he
Speaker 2: had previously worked for the FBI, an agency with a
Speaker 2: much bigger stick than the DEA has, and that the
Speaker 2: FBI would help him out of this jam. Flavio tells
Speaker 2: Christian as they're on the flight that his wife Andre
Speaker 2: is burning up the phones as they speak, trying to
Speaker 2: enlist the FBI's help, and that last part I can
Speaker 2: say with certainty that part's true.
Speaker 7: I was working for the Attorney Journal's office in New Mexico,
Speaker 7: and I get a phone call from Flavio's wife.
Speaker 2: This is Mark Pinto, the FBI agent who is Flavio's
Speaker 2: handler in Las Vegas. By this time, Mar's left the bureau.
Speaker 2: He hasn't seen or talked to Flavio in a decade,
Speaker 2: and he doesn't even know that Flavio is now married.
Speaker 7: I have a different telephone number, and Flavio didn't have
Speaker 7: a wife, so I'm institutionally paranoid, like, I can't talk
Speaker 7: to you. And she goes on and she's pleading, and
Speaker 7: I said, I'll have to think about this.
Speaker 2: Right after that call, Mark, it's another from the US
Speaker 2: Attorney's office in New York. They want to talk to
Speaker 2: him about Flavio, and.
Speaker 7: I'm like, I don't want to talk about Flavio. I
Speaker 7: don't want to talk about the old days. I don't
Speaker 7: want to talk about anything. I'm out. I'm out. I
Speaker 7: don't want my house burned down for whatever reasons, or
Speaker 7: I don't want the ire of the US government. And
Speaker 7: he goes well, the US considers him a terrorist, and like,
Speaker 7: all the more reason I don't want to be the
Speaker 7: former FBI agent that's taking the stand in defense of
Speaker 7: a terrorist in some dea case because I don't have
Speaker 7: any of the details and I haven't seen Flavio in
Speaker 7: forever in a day, and they asked my opinion, I'm like, well,
Speaker 7: my opinion is if it's the same Flavio and nothing's
Speaker 7: drastically changed in his life, he got railroaded. But that's
Speaker 7: my opinion, my uninformed opinion.
Speaker 2: But as any good investigator would be, Marx intrigued. He
Speaker 2: wants to know more, so he flies to New York
Speaker 2: to meet with the prosecutors more after the break, Mark Pinto,
Speaker 2: Flavio's former FBI handler in Las Vegas, meets with the
Speaker 2: prosecutors assigned to Flavio's case. They lay out the whole case,
Speaker 2: how Flavio recruited Christian and Massimo and attempted to sell
Speaker 2: weapons to Wan and his colleagues, who Flavio believed were
Speaker 2: agents for the FARC in Colombia. The prosecutors tell Mark
Speaker 2: about Flavio's call to the CIA and claim it was
Speaker 2: nothing more than Flavio creating a cover in case he
Speaker 2: was caught.
Speaker 7: And when they laid out everything, my opinion hadn't changed.
Speaker 7: The Flavio was the same that he loves. The United
Speaker 7: States would have done anything for him. He would have
Speaker 7: sacrificed his life this country for what it stands for.
Speaker 2: So you think it's credible the story that he says
Speaker 2: he called the CIA to not to I mean, the
Speaker 2: government says that was a cover right, but Flavio has
Speaker 2: maintained that he really thought he was reporting a crime
Speaker 2: and was helping the US government.
Speaker 7: So you're putting me in a tough position as you
Speaker 7: sit there with your arms crossed the way for me
Speaker 7: to answer truthfully because I don't want to go contrary
Speaker 7: because I don't know what the prosecuting attorneys know, not really.
Speaker 7: And I was afraid when I heard that Flavio was
Speaker 7: going to be locked away forever and the key thrown away,
Speaker 7: because they're pretty serious charges. And I felt terrible because
Speaker 7: there's nothing I can do about it. To be quite honest,
Speaker 7: there's nothing I can do about it without risking my lifestyle,
Speaker 7: in my wife's lifestyle.
Speaker 2: What Mark means here is that he was fired from
Speaker 2: the FBI. Remember when Flavio first met his handlers, he
Speaker 2: brought some bottles of wine as a gift, and there
Speaker 2: was a big argument until Mark agreed to accept the wine.
Speaker 2: That was against FBI policy. Mark's willingness to break the
Speaker 2: FBI's small administrative rules eventually caught up with him, costing
Speaker 2: him his job. He considers testifying in Flavio's trial to
Speaker 2: describe how Flavio worked with the Bureau in Vegas and
Speaker 2: how that might help explain his behavior with the CIA,
Speaker 2: But in the end Mark chooses not to come forward,
Speaker 2: fearing that he would open himself up to questions. But
Speaker 2: as FBI career, it's a decision that years later haunts Mark.
Speaker 7: I'm retired, and what I do in retirement is I
Speaker 7: take my file the church and I go to Bible study,
Speaker 7: and I study the Bible, gnostic exegies of Paul and
Speaker 7: this kind of esoteric stuff they give people headaches that
Speaker 7: you drone on and on about academically that no one
Speaker 7: cares about. And what's common through all that is it's
Speaker 7: like people shouldn't be prosecuted unjustly. And I found myself
Speaker 7: standing outside with a lot of guilt on my shoulders
Speaker 7: because I'm not the man I'd like to be. And
Speaker 7: it's easy to do the right thing when it doesn't
Speaker 7: cost you everything.
Speaker 2: The end result of all this is that Flavio is
Speaker 2: on his own facing trial. Flavio doesn't get help from
Speaker 2: Mark or any one at the FBI. The bureau does
Speaker 2: the bare minimum handing over internal reports that support Flavio's
Speaker 2: claims of having been an informant, but the FBI does
Speaker 2: not offer anyone to testify about Flavio's substantial cooperation. But
Speaker 2: Flavio does get help from an unlikely group of FEDS.
Speaker 2: The CIA. Remarkably, and I want to emphasize how unusual
Speaker 2: this is, the CIA turns over two recordings the calls
Speaker 2: from twenty twelve between Flavio and the agents. This is
Speaker 2: remarkable because the CIA rarely gets involved in US criminal prosecutions.
Speaker 2: The agency is a black hole, very little light escapes.
Speaker 2: The CIA could have reported that it didn't have recordings
Speaker 2: of the calls Flavio claims made, and that would have
Speaker 2: been the end of it. No one would have had
Speaker 2: the access and authority to prove the CIA wrong. So
Speaker 2: that fact that the CIA turns over the recordings voluntarily,
Speaker 2: I've always interpreted as a kind of message. While the
Speaker 2: agency might not be taking ownership of Flavio, there's someone
Speaker 2: high up inside the CIA who's basically acknowledging, Hey, there
Speaker 2: might be something to Flavio's story.
Speaker 1: Those transcripts in that call I think was saving my life.
Speaker 2: Flavio takes this theory further. He thinks the CIA knows
Speaker 2: he's innocent, but the agency is hamstrung, so in Flavia's view,
Speaker 2: agents release the recordings as a way of helping him
Speaker 2: and his case. It's the best they can do.
Speaker 1: Only obligation from CAA was just the moral obligation tours
Speaker 1: to me because they see me in the situation which
Speaker 1: I end up. You know, they say, you know what,
Speaker 1: probably he did his part less whatever he said he didn't.
Speaker 1: Let's prove.
Speaker 2: But I can't prove this. All of this is speculation.
Speaker 2: The CIA declined to make anyone available for an interview
Speaker 2: and refused to comment about Flavio's case. For their part,
Speaker 2: prosecutors don't appear to see any message from the CIA's
Speaker 2: release of the recordings. Instead, they double down on Flavio. Flavio, Christian,
Speaker 2: and Massimo are detained at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, a
Speaker 2: sand colored high rise federal detention facility in Lower Manhattan
Speaker 2: that looks like it popped out of the pages of
Speaker 2: a dystopian comic book. Several famous people have been placed
Speaker 2: behind bars here, including mobster John Gotti and Ponti scheme
Speaker 2: artist Bernie made off. This is also the facility in
Speaker 2: which Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide while facing child sex trafficking charges.
Speaker 2: Inside the jail, Christian immediately cuts a deal to cooperate
Speaker 2: with the Justice Department, and then, amazingly, Christian and Massimo
Speaker 2: are assigned to the same cell. Massimo at the time
Speaker 2: is distraught.
Speaker 3: He was often crying.
Speaker 2: That's what Christian witnesses. Inside the cell, Massimo curled up
Speaker 2: in the corner sobbing. Christian suggests to Massimo that there's
Speaker 2: something he can do to get out of this situation.
Speaker 6: I told him that I signed a cooperation agreement.
Speaker 2: And Massimo confirms that he was telling me that he
Speaker 2: was cooperating. Christian encourages Massimo to join him in cooperating
Speaker 2: with the government. Around this time, Flavio approaches Massimo in detention.
Speaker 3: As I was passing by the library. He saw me
Speaker 3: and he ran after me as I was going towards
Speaker 3: the infirmary, and he said, Massimo, I want to talk
Speaker 3: to you one minute, and I told him, tell me,
Speaker 3: what do you want, Massimo. We have to cooperate, our
Speaker 3: lawyers have to cooperate.
Speaker 2: Flavio tells Massimo about the CIA, cause.
Speaker 3: He told me that he was a cooperator with the CIA.
Speaker 2: Massimo wouldn't commit to anything. Remember, Flavio is the guy
Speaker 2: who lord on the Montenegro to be arrested. So the
Speaker 2: next month Flavio makes an indirect appeal and.
Speaker 3: He made by the name of Ash who worked in
Speaker 3: the library, told me that he had a message for
Speaker 3: me on behalf of Flavio Giorgesco. He was advising me
Speaker 3: to cooperate with him, not to accept any deal if
Speaker 3: it were to be offered to me, and not to
Speaker 3: accept or cooperate with the government if it were to
Speaker 3: be offered to me, and not to forget that I
Speaker 3: was the father of three children and that only my
Speaker 3: working together with them I could go back home.
Speaker 2: In Massimo's view, Flavio's message is unambiguous.
Speaker 3: A clear intimidation.
Speaker 2: Flavio acknowledges that he asked another Detaine to deliver a
Speaker 2: message to Massimo, but he denies it was any kind
Speaker 2: of threat. Flavio says he was appealing to Massimo's desire
Speaker 2: to be reunited with his family, and he believed joining
Speaker 2: forces and a defense strategy was the best approach for
Speaker 2: both of them. He says, Masimo framed it as intimidation
Speaker 2: to make him look bad and.
Speaker 1: Much more understanding because I tell him, Man, I worked
Speaker 1: for CAA, I helped them out. You didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: I didn't elect you mass Most to get some money,
Speaker 1: and I didn't let him to get money from Juan.
Speaker 1: I didn't compromise him in any wish to put him
Speaker 1: in prison. And I said, man, you didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: Just let me do the work and we present the facts,
Speaker 1: the evidence. We're gonna walk away. We're gonna be okay,
Speaker 1: don't worry. It be strong.
Speaker 2: But Massimo doesn't go along with Flavio's proposal. He takes
Speaker 2: christians advice and sides with federal prosecutors. Massimo signs an
Speaker 2: agreement to plead guilty and testify against Flavio in exchange
Speaker 2: for leniency at sentencing, and in the spring of twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: the Justice Department puts Flavio on trial. That's after the break.
Speaker 2: The government's case winds up being solely focused on Flavio.
Speaker 2: He's the only one on trial. Both Christian and Massimo
Speaker 2: agree to plead guilty and testify against Flavio. The words
Speaker 2: you've heard from Christian and Massimo read by actors.
Speaker 3: I was reading for Christian and I was reading for Massimo.
Speaker 2: Come verbatim from this trial. None of the others involved
Speaker 2: in the case, including Massimo's German contact who arranged for
Speaker 2: the end user certificate, or Peter man Chukov, the Bulgarian
Speaker 2: who owned the weapons factory, none of these people are
Speaker 2: charged criminally or compelled to testify, and nothing happens with
Speaker 2: the other George Escu Andy on.
Speaker 5: You're Killing.
Speaker 1: Andy.
Speaker 2: Georgescu was on hours of DEA recordings and he played
Speaker 2: an integral role in connecting Juan with Flavio.
Speaker 1: Im record.
Speaker 5: So then maybe he's a pion or something, but he's.
Speaker 6: Supposed to maybe he's sleeping.
Speaker 2: Why isn't Andy charged. It's a question that has long
Speaker 2: frustrated me because I can't get answers. Over the years.
Speaker 2: I called Andy and sent him emails and letters. I
Speaker 2: even left a note at his office near Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: He never responded, and in twenty twenty Andy passed away
Speaker 2: from lung cancer. Flavio's theory is that Andy was actually
Speaker 2: an informant for the FBI, something the DEA didn't know
Speaker 2: during their investigation. So when the arrests happened. According to
Speaker 2: Flavio's theory, the FBI protects Andy and prevents his prosecution.
Speaker 2: If that's true, man, three informants thinking they're working for
Speaker 2: three agencies in one enormous Clusterfuck, You're certain that that
Speaker 2: Andy was working as an informant?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: Flavio has no evidence to support this claim, and neither
Speaker 2: do I, but I have to admit that it's the
Speaker 2: most plausible explanation for why Andy is neither charged nor
Speaker 2: call to testify in the case. Flavio has zero doubt
Speaker 2: that Andy was a snitch and that someone powerful protected him.
Speaker 2: Did you ever get proof of that or you just
Speaker 2: feel that, given the circumstances he had to have been.
Speaker 1: I was one time. I mean, he's a office and
Speaker 1: the IFBA agents came over there, and you know, he
Speaker 1: was showing so much arrogance and so much power. You
Speaker 1: cannot do that if you don't have book back up.
Speaker 2: It's impossible to verify Flavio's claim there, and I've accepted
Speaker 2: that I won't find the answers about Andy. George Escu
Speaker 2: at least not anytime soon. But there is one other
Speaker 2: George Escu Andre, Flavio's wife.
Speaker 1: Hello Flo, She.
Speaker 6: Three o'clock.
Speaker 2: Andre is captured only briefly on the DEA's recordings. She
Speaker 2: answers one of Wan's calls to Flavio in September twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, thank you very much. I APPRESHI okay.
Speaker 2: Andra says she had no idea what Flavio was up
Speaker 2: to during the DEA sting. Flavio didn't tell her anything,
Speaker 2: and she assumed his travels with Christian and Massimo were
Speaker 2: business as usual, just Flavia being Flavio. But after Flavio's extradition,
Speaker 2: Andre moves to New York and helps him mount to defense,
Speaker 2: never doubting her husband's story that he was working with
Speaker 2: the CIA. In May twenty sixteen, just before Flavio's trial
Speaker 2: is scheduled to begin, Andre sends me an email. The
Speaker 2: main reason for this email, Andre writes, is that I
Speaker 2: want to reveal the outrageous conduct of the US government
Speaker 2: and how a US citizen is treated after he helped
Speaker 2: this country so many times. Andre also reaches out to
Speaker 2: my colleague Mortaza Hussein. He and I write about Flavio's
Speaker 2: case for the Intercept. In twenty sixteen, and Mortaza attends
Speaker 2: Flavio's trial in Manhattan.
Speaker 4: There was a deep sense of ambiguity around this entire
Speaker 4: case from beginning to end.
Speaker 2: This is Mortaza Hussein.
Speaker 4: So there was clearly a a kernel of doubt on
Speaker 4: both sides, and it just seemed to come down in
Speaker 4: the end to which doubt you saw as stronger.
Speaker 2: At trial, Christian and Massimo both testify against Flavio as
Speaker 2: part of their deals for leniency, and they both claim
Speaker 2: that Flavio was the mastermind of the weapons deal and
Speaker 2: suggests that Flavio's calls with the CIA were nothing more
Speaker 2: than an insurance policy, a cover if he was ever caught. Flavio,
Speaker 2: attempting to counter that narrative, takes the stand in his
Speaker 2: own defense. His lawyer asked him, do you regret what
Speaker 2: you did?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: Never, and I will do it again. Flavio answers. What
Speaker 2: he means is that he doesn't regret trying to help
Speaker 2: the US government. If I walk, I will do it again.
Speaker 2: Flavio says he was.
Speaker 4: Very insistent and emotional. Actually understand that. Yeah, he said,
Speaker 4: the entire time, I was doing this for the benef
Speaker 4: of the United States. I love America. I want to
Speaker 4: do something to help America. So on the stand, he
Speaker 4: very much appealed to his own patriotism and love for
Speaker 4: the United States, and I thought appealed to the court
Speaker 4: and to the jury as well too on that score.
Speaker 4: And he seemed questions here, but there was no real
Speaker 4: way of substantiating it in great detail, because the only
Speaker 4: evidence that they really existed that this is what he
Speaker 4: was thinking was the one call he made to the
Speaker 4: CIA to try to report what was happening when he
Speaker 4: was being entrapped. So they played that tape in court.
Speaker 1: His guns. They don't go in right to say they
Speaker 1: go to Columbia. No, No, you want me to day.
Speaker 5: I understand what you're go ahead and passing to us,
Speaker 5: and I do appreciate why you're telling us. It's definitely
Speaker 5: something that, if we can verify, would be of interest
Speaker 5: to the agency to be aware of.
Speaker 4: And that was the crux of his defense. I think
Speaker 4: it was enough to raise doubt about it, So it
Speaker 4: was with some doubt.
Speaker 2: During cross examination, the prosecutor Elon Graf suggests that some
Speaker 2: of Flavio's behavior during the weapons deal, such as using
Speaker 2: encrypted messaging apps, indicated that he was trying to hide
Speaker 2: what he was doing from the CIA. Flavio raises his
Speaker 2: voice in protest. Bring the reports, Flavio barks back, referring
Speaker 2: to the transcripts of his calls with the CIA. You
Speaker 2: have the very report, mister Graff. Why don't you bring
Speaker 2: the report in front of the jury and show them.
Speaker 2: Flavio reminds the jury that he had told the CIA
Speaker 2: about the entire crime before it happened.
Speaker 4: And he got quite upset. He got quite emotional, but
Speaker 4: I remember he yelled a bit and use, you know,
Speaker 4: fighting for his life.
Speaker 2: On May twenty fifth, twenty sixteen, the jury comes back
Speaker 2: with a verdict guilty. During Flavio's trial, I asked the
Speaker 2: DEA for a comment. A spokesman declined to comment specifically
Speaker 2: on Flavio's case, but defended the agency's narco terrorism stings
Speaker 2: in general. Quote, we go after folks that are drug traffickers,
Speaker 2: arms traffickers, whatever the case may be. They are predisposed
Speaker 2: to criminal acts. All we do is allow the means
Speaker 2: to give them the opportunity to commit these crimes they
Speaker 2: would otherwise commit without us. These defendants have every opportunity
Speaker 2: to walk away. On December two, twenty sixteen, Flavio returns
Speaker 2: to court for his sentencing hearing. US District Judge Ronnie
Speaker 2: Abrams offers Flavio an opportunity to make a statement before
Speaker 2: he's sentenced. Flavio faces a maximum penalty of life in prison.
Speaker 2: My actions were to help the United States government and
Speaker 2: the citizens of the United States, Flavio tells the judge.
Speaker 2: I have always maintained my innocence. Judge Abrahms sentences Flavio
Speaker 2: to ten years in prison, a fraction of the life
Speaker 2: sentence she could have given him, and what seems like
Speaker 2: an acknowledgment of ambiguities, if not some doubts in the
Speaker 2: government's case. So Flavio is sent to a prison in Maryland.
Speaker 5: This college from an inmate at a prison, and that's
Speaker 5: when Flavio and I start talking.
Speaker 2: This goes on sporadically for a few years, calls like
Speaker 2: this one, until Flavio is released in the summer of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two to a halfway house in New York,
Speaker 2: where Flavio and I finally meet in person.
Speaker 1: You know what, I pray every night to somebody to
Speaker 1: come to me, shake my hand, and said it was
Speaker 1: a misunderstanding. He's not your fault, is not our.
Speaker 2: Fourth that's in the next episode. This is up in arms,
Speaker 2: season two of Alphabet Boys. Alphabet Boys is a production
Speaker 2: of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts. The show is reported,
Speaker 2: written and hosted by me, Trevor Aaronson. For more information
Speaker 2: about this series or to drop us a tip, head
Speaker 2: to our website Alphabet Boys dot xyz. You can contact
Speaker 2: me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aaronson. The show's
Speaker 2: instagram is alphabet Boys dot pod. If you're enjoying Alphabet Boys,
Speaker 2: tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations are the
Speaker 2: best recommendations. And if you want to see an illegal
Speaker 2: armsteel from the inside again, it's alphabet boy xyz. You'll
Speaker 2: find undercover recordings and documents related to Flavio's case. Finally,
Speaker 2: you can help us ride the algorithms by leaving a
Speaker 2: rating or review on your favorite podcast app that helps
Speaker 2: other people find us. And thanks for listening.