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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, my back hurts because we just helped

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Speaker 1: your brother move into his house unloading that moving truck.

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Speaker 1: I know, but it didn't take very long. Fortunate it didn't.

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Speaker 1: There was a bunch of people. They're a bunch of

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Speaker 1: wrapping folks, um, including yourself, And that's what people how

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Speaker 1: people describe me constantly. No, but you you can haul,

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Speaker 1: you can hauld. I mean you spent your day's bringing

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Speaker 1: dragon buckets of ice up and downstairs in that restaurant

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Speaker 1: a long time ago. But yeah, no, it was. It

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Speaker 1: was great. We got it done really quickly. It was

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Speaker 1: just a lot of heavy crap right. Happy they're here though,

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my niece is going to be nearby. So exciting,

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Speaker 1: so adorable. I would say. The biggest thing I learned

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Speaker 1: from that move is something I've long known to be true.

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Speaker 1: I learned the last time we moved is that if

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Speaker 1: I can't fit that stuff in a tied up handkerchief

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Speaker 1: on the back of a stick, I'm not bringing it

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Speaker 1: with medals only. Yeah, Bendel's only for the next move.

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Speaker 1: Happy New Year, everybody, Happy New Year. Look at that.

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Speaker 1: Welcomed in the year with the song very weird song

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Speaker 1: tone really, I'm so excited for twenty three. I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say that because I said I was so excited for

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Speaker 1: another year, regular all year, stupid year. It's like bullet train.

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Speaker 1: My expectations are so low. Be shockingly good. I hope

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Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah, fingers crossed. But hey, we got a

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Speaker 1: big story to day, so I don't want to sit

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Speaker 1: around here and banter too much. I say, we get

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Speaker 1: right into it. Yeah. I think so too, because this

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Speaker 1: is a really good one, A little complicated, awesome, interesting, crazy,

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Speaker 1: really great suggestion also from our listener Milo Ira at

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Speaker 1: bon Mott milo Um on Twitter. I think that he

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Speaker 1: actually suggested this like way back in the day. But

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited at finally beginning to this story because

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Speaker 1: it was awesome. So today we're gonna be talking about

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Speaker 1: James Barry, who is distinguished military doctor and surgeon who

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Speaker 1: served in Cape Town, South Africa, and was the first

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Speaker 1: European doctor to perform a successful C section where both

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Speaker 1: the mother and the baby survived. Barry was really well

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Speaker 1: respected despite the fact that he was frequently tactless and

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Speaker 1: he had a very confrontational and personality, but he still

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Speaker 1: had great bedside manner and he instigated a lot of

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Speaker 1: health care policies like better sanitation and hygiene, which improved

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Speaker 1: lives everywhere he went. But after he died, a woman

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Speaker 1: went to the press with a shocking story. Dr James

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Speaker 1: Barry was a woman. So let's talk about Dr James

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Speaker 1: Berry's life, what people today think about his gender, identity

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Speaker 1: and sexuality, the ironic public accusations of homosexuality with his

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Speaker 1: good friend Charles Somerset, and the run in with Florence

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Speaker 1: Nightingale that cost him a knighthood. I'm very excited. Let's go. Hey,

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Speaker 1: their French com well, Eli and I and I got

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Speaker 1: some stories to tell. There's no matchmaking, a romantic tips.

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Speaker 1: It's just about ridiculous relationships, a love there might be

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Speaker 1: any type of person at all, and abstract cons that

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Speaker 1: don't a concrete wall. But if there's a story, were

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Speaker 1: the second clinch, ridiculous roles, the production of iHeart Radio.

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Speaker 1: And before we jump in, just want to quickly say

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Speaker 1: that most of our information about James Barry comes from

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Speaker 1: Michael Dupries and Jeremy drawn Fields seen biography. Dr James

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Speaker 1: Berry a woman ahead of her time. So Dr James

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Speaker 1: Berry was born Margaret Anne Bulkeley in Cork, Ireland around

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Speaker 1: seventeen eighty nine, and it wasn't an easy childhood. Margaret's father,

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Speaker 1: Jeremiah ran away house, but he was dismissed because of

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Speaker 1: anti Catholic sentiments classic way house problems horrible, so he

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Speaker 1: ended up spending time in debtors prison and Margaret and

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Speaker 1: her mother Mary Anne had no support. Even worse, in

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Speaker 1: eighteen o four, another he was born, named Julianna, and

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Speaker 1: Jeremiah kicked Julianna, the fifteen year old Margaret, and his

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Speaker 1: wife Mary Anne, out of the house. Many biographers believed

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Speaker 1: that Juliana was actually Margaret's child, born as the result

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Speaker 1: of a childhood's sexual assault, because after Dr Barry died,

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Speaker 1: stretch marks were discovered on his stomach, so people thought

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Speaker 1: at some point he'd had a kid. Interesting, so they

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Speaker 1: think it was Jeremiah. No, actually they think it was

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Speaker 1: his no count uncle Raymond Barry. Raymond Barry, that bastard.

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Speaker 1: So if that's true, shame on you, Raymond. If it's

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Speaker 1: not true, what a what a an indictment of Raymond Well.

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Speaker 1: Mary Anne wrote to her brother, who was a noted

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Speaker 1: Irish painter and Royal academician Professor James Barry for help.

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Speaker 1: She was hoping that he would fund Margaret's education so

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Speaker 1: that Margaret could become a teacher. Initially the guy refused,

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Speaker 1: but in February of eighteen oh six he died suddenly

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Speaker 1: after an illness and left a big inheritance to mary Anne,

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Speaker 1: and that allowed her and Margaret to kind of live

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Speaker 1: pretty reasonably comfortable. And then in eighteen o nine, mary

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Speaker 1: Anne received a letter from Jeremiah, her old husband, telling

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Speaker 1: her that he had quote made up his mind to

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Speaker 1: forgive now and for steal in me lucky child. Look,

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Speaker 1: I got one Irish accented Its hilarious. I'm sorry, um,

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Speaker 1: but see this letter making up his mind to forgive.

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Speaker 1: This suggests that Juliana was mary Anne's child from maybe

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Speaker 1: an affair, and not a secret child of Margaret. Now.

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Speaker 1: There's also no evidence at the time of Margaret displaying

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Speaker 1: any indications of pregnancy. You know, she didn't. No one

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Speaker 1: wrote any journal saying that she had a lot of

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Speaker 1: weight gain or illness or she wasn't you know, sent

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Speaker 1: away for a period of time, which that was a

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Speaker 1: common cover up for pregnancies back then. Oh oh, Margaret, Well,

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Speaker 1: poor lamb has a green and yellow melancholy. She's been

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Speaker 1: sent to the seaside for her health for randomly about

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Speaker 1: eight or nine months were a normal medical length of

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Speaker 1: time for a melancholy, of course, eight or nine months,

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Speaker 1: it's exactly the recovery period. Oh and I found this

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Speaker 1: child while I was away. Oh my gosh, that was

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Speaker 1: the goodness of my heart. I have adopted a poor

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Speaker 1: farmer's child now. Mary Anne also made friends with a

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Speaker 1: number of her brother, Professor James Berry's artist friends, and

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Speaker 1: that really came in handy because Margaret was having trouble

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Speaker 1: finding work as a tutor, and plus she really just

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a doctor. She didn't want to be

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Speaker 1: a teacher, but it was illegal for women to go

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Speaker 1: to medical school in Britain at the time. So Margaret

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Speaker 1: and Mary Anne along with their liberal minded friends Daniel

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Speaker 1: Reardon who is the family solicitor, Dr Edward Fryer who

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Speaker 1: was Margaret's personal tutor, and General Francisco de Miranda, a

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Speaker 1: Venezuelan revolutionary living in London. What a cast of characters,

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Speaker 1: I know. I was like James Barry's friends were cool.

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Speaker 1: This was some interesting Morgan's board. Well, they put their

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Speaker 1: heads together and they came up with an audacious plan.

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Speaker 1: If Margaret couldn't be a woman and be a doctor,

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Speaker 1: then she would become a he at least for the

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Speaker 1: length of medical school. And then General Miranda promised Margaret

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Speaker 1: a job in Venezuela as a doctor because he was

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Speaker 1: all about women's education, women's suffrage and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So he's like a woman doctor. Sounds great to me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the problem is, right, So this

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Speaker 1: would be a three year disguise as Margaret went through

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Speaker 1: medical school, and it had to be carefully done. This

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Speaker 1: is like reverse Bosom Buddies. They had to dress up

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Speaker 1: as women to go to that our all girls school.

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Speaker 1: That's right. A common plot. I feel like that was

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Speaker 1: there was some dumb movie where they were dressed as

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Speaker 1: women for no reason. I was like that, that's not

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Speaker 1: a thing anymore. Why are you doing it? No bosom Buddies.

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Speaker 1: It was. It was apartment complex that they had to

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Speaker 1: move into that was women only, so they had to

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Speaker 1: dress up as women to pool all their neighbors. I

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Speaker 1: guess not a show I watched Tom Hanks. Oh, it

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Speaker 1: was like where he started I think take it on

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Speaker 1: back Tom Hanks anyway. So they chose the name James

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Speaker 1: Berry for Margaret since her uncle was dead and wasn't

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Speaker 1: using it anymore. Plus the fact that it was a

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Speaker 1: known name would probably open some doors for her. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever heard, but in a lot

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Speaker 1: of higher education, who you were born from can really

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Speaker 1: help you out. They chose Edinburgh University because they were

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Speaker 1: unknown in Scotland. No one was going to be like,

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Speaker 1: you're looking an awful lot like Margaret. Then, on November

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Speaker 1: eighteen o nine, Mary Anne Bulkeley and her nephew James

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Speaker 1: Berry boarded a ship for Edinburgh, and Margaret Bulkeley was

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Speaker 1: no more. James even wrote to the solicitor, Daniel Reardon quote,

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Speaker 1: it was very useful for miss is Bulkeley, my aunt,

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Speaker 1: to have a gentleman to take care of her on

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Speaker 1: board the ship, and to have one in a strange country. Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is actually the letter that pretty much shed light

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Speaker 1: on James Berry's early life, on his life as Margaret

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Speaker 1: Ann Bulkeley, because even though it was signed he signed

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Speaker 1: at James Berry, Daniel reared in I guess in like

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Speaker 1: filing it away. He wrote the name miss Bulkeley on

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Speaker 1: the outside of the envelope. So that's the discovery that

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Speaker 1: the biographers Michael Duprees and Jeremy Dronfield found in their

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Speaker 1: research to be like, oh, the nephew James Barry is

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Speaker 1: the same as the daughter Margaret Anne one and the

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Speaker 1: same Miss Bokeley is James Berry. So Janie Rearden not

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Speaker 1: exactly keeping up appearances by writing Miss Bulkeley on this Oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, Berry's actually you gave it away, Daniel,

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Speaker 1: although it turned out to be very useful for us

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Speaker 1: historically so well. James Berry at this point also started

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Speaker 1: to fudge his birthdate. Different sources say that James's birthdate

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Speaker 1: was in seventeen ninety two or seventeen nine five, because

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Speaker 1: he had to explain his youthful appearance. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're like, why is that man so pretty? He got

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Speaker 1: such curly hair and the hairless face. It was, you know.

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Speaker 1: Once he got to Edinburgh, the University Senate decided that

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Speaker 1: James Barry must be hiding something and they denied his admission.

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Speaker 1: He had this short stature and a high pitched voice,

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Speaker 1: no facial hair, delicate features. The all points the one

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Speaker 1: thing James body is no man, he's actually boy. James

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Speaker 1: wipes some sweat away. He's like, yeah, that's me, just

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Speaker 1: a fifteen year old prodigy, young boy, that's what's wrong

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Speaker 1: with me. Unfortunately, James Berry had a friend named David

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Speaker 1: Stewart Erskine, who is the eleventh Earl of Buchan, and

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Speaker 1: he persuaded them to let James into the school. So

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Speaker 1: in eighteen twelve James qualified as a doctor. He moved

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Speaker 1: to London a year later past the surgeon's exam, and

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Speaker 1: now it's time for James to get a job as

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Speaker 1: a full doctor doctor Jade Barry. But the job that

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Speaker 1: General Miranda had promised Margaret Bulkeley was impossible. Now Miranda's

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Speaker 1: revolution and Venezuela had failed and he had been captured

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Speaker 1: and imprisoned in eighteen twelve. Randa, you gotta keep up

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Speaker 1: your end of the bargain here. Sorry, I try. You

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Speaker 1: promised me you would win your revolution. What had happened?

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Speaker 1: I thought I would. Turns out they're kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to do. So James Barry needed a new plan. Now,

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Speaker 1: Britain had quite a few wars going on at this point,

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Speaker 1: and they were actively seeking doctors in the British Army,

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Speaker 1: so James Barry joined up as a hospital assistant. By

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifteen he was an assistant surgeon on par with

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Speaker 1: a lieutenant, and he received a posting to Cape Town,

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Speaker 1: South Africa, and Lord Buchan once again smooth the way

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Speaker 1: for James by providing a letter of introduction to the

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Speaker 1: colonies governor, Lord Charles Somerset. But James Barry won a

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Speaker 1: firm place in Lord Charles Somerset's heart. When Somerset's daughter

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Speaker 1: fell ill right after Barry had arrived in Cape Town,

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Speaker 1: Barry took care of her and she made a complete recovery,

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Speaker 1: and this made Lord Charles Somerset so grateful that he

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Speaker 1: promoted James Barry to his personal physician. Barry immediately made

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Speaker 1: a reputation for himself. He was very interested in the

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Speaker 1: relatively new field of preventative medicine, so he used to

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Speaker 1: throw all these improvements to like water and santation systems

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Speaker 1: and the living quarters of enslaved people or prisoners or

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Speaker 1: the mentally ill. And he had a sanctuary setup for

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Speaker 1: people with leprosy. He was like, maybe the people with

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Speaker 1: the infectious disease shouldn't live in the same place as

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Speaker 1: just the thought and maybe what if we put other

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Speaker 1: people in places that weren't crawling with diseases and and

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Speaker 1: just gave him a nice bed to sleep, and so

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Speaker 1: they didn't show up sick to work the next day,

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Speaker 1: they might live. One article described it as um as

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Speaker 1: having an appreciation of health care as well as sick care.

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Speaker 1: And I really liked that distinction. Yeah. Now. An article

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Speaker 1: in new scientists dot com says that his patients came

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Speaker 1: from all walks of life, and they were treated with

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Speaker 1: equal kindness and expertise like. Women especially found him ideal,

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Speaker 1: They said, quote a person of breeding who showed consideration

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Speaker 1: to his patients and who understood the complaints of women.

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Speaker 1: That's what a woman sounds like to me, Just so

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Speaker 1: you know, that's my impression. That's uh yeah, sorry, all

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Speaker 1: women sound like that to me. And I have to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation after this so you can hear my

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Speaker 1: voice more often. Yeah, there's one thing I never hear,

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Speaker 1: it's your voice. Uh. James Berry also instituted regular checks

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Speaker 1: on the soldiers and their medical facilities. He improved hygiene

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Speaker 1: and living conditions for the true quote in those days,

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Speaker 1: when the enlisted soldier was treated with little respect, poorly fed,

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Speaker 1: and suffered harsh discipline. Alcoholism and venereal disease were rice,

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Speaker 1: and families who accompanied soldiers were treated almost on par

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Speaker 1: with prostitutes and other camp followers. Right, So James is

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Speaker 1: just like is like this is bullshit. It's like coming in,

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Speaker 1: like what the funk are y'all doing? Stop treating people

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Speaker 1: like ass and they will stop getting as sick as ass.

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Speaker 1: Pretty that's you put. You took the words right out

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Speaker 1: of James Berry. That James Berry might have been a

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Speaker 1: little short. He often wore shoes with three inch soules

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Speaker 1: so he could stand a little taller. But he was

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Speaker 1: considered very handsome in his day. He had curly red

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Speaker 1: hair and a winning smile when he felt like being charming,

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Speaker 1: and he was also a strict vegetarian and teetotaler. He

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Speaker 1: took a goat with him everywhere he went, and he

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Speaker 1: only drank goat's milk, So so he's got a personal

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Speaker 1: drink dispenser at all times. It's like, how don't really

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Speaker 1: yeah a little soda stream today, I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: goat's milk. Baja blast God. As we've said, James Barry

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Speaker 1: did have a very quick temper. He could be very

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Speaker 1: overbearing and rude. I mean, you know, we laughed about

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Speaker 1: him coming and be like, what the funk are y'all doing?

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Speaker 1: But that is kind of the vibe that you get

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Speaker 1: from the research. But he could also be tender and

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Speaker 1: kind and quite flirtatious with the lady. In fact, he

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Speaker 1: behaved scandalously enough with one lady that her close friend,

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Speaker 1: Captain Chloete, challenged Barry to a duel with pistols. Dah,

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Speaker 1: you'll speak to my woman friend that way. I was like,

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Speaker 1: what did he do? Now? This was already illegal at

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Speaker 1: the time in the British Army, so they had to

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Speaker 1: duel in secret. Some sources say that Barry had better

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Speaker 1: aim and took the peek off the captain's hat, and

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Speaker 1: others say that Barry received a flesh wound but simply

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Speaker 1: retired to his quarters and took care of the wound

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Speaker 1: him self, and then showed up a couple of days later,

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Speaker 1: acting like nothing had happened. Either way, Barry and the

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Speaker 1: captain became great friends for the rest of James Berry's

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Speaker 1: lin So I guess it was one of those situations

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Speaker 1: like we just got to fight it out and now

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Speaker 1: we're cool, cool, get that out of the way, like

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Speaker 1: just duel already, am I right now? All right? Get

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Speaker 1: to get a dueling ground already. Well. Then a round twenty,

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Speaker 1: Dr Barry was asked to attend to a woman named

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Speaker 1: Mrs Munnick, and she was having trouble delivering a baby.

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Speaker 1: Dr Barry decided to perform an emergency C section, and

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Speaker 1: at this point five percent of the time that meant

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Speaker 1: the mother would die. But James Barry went for it,

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Speaker 1: and he became the first European doctor to perform a

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Speaker 1: successful C section in the British Empire, where both the

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Speaker 1: mother and the baby lived. Now it needs all those

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Speaker 1: little qualifiers because it becomes clear that indigenous Africans managed

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Speaker 1: successful C section operations frequently actually. According to the National

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Speaker 1: Institute of Health, a British traveler named Robert Falcon witnessed

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Speaker 1: a c section in Uganda in eighteen seventy nine and

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Speaker 1: described the treatment, which involved banana wine to semi intoxicate

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Speaker 1: and therefore like anesthetize the mother, and then he made

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Speaker 1: the incision and used a paste made from roots to

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Speaker 1: dress it and encourage healing. The ni h Rites quote

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Speaker 1: the patient recovered well, and Falcon concluded that this technique

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Speaker 1: was well developed and had clearly been employed for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Similar reports come from Rwanda, where botanical preparations

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Speaker 1: were also used to anesthetize the patient and promote wound healing.

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Speaker 1: So you see, it's not the first C section ever.

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Speaker 1: Obviously this was happening in Africa, Uh, you know, on

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Speaker 1: a level that white people didn't want to admit or

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Speaker 1: be familiar with. But it was the first one performed

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Speaker 1: by European doctors. That's still pretty impressive. Yeah, take a win, James.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you see memes or very short articles about James

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Speaker 1: Berry that say he performed the first successful C section period.

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Speaker 1: Mrs Munnick and her husband Thomas were so grateful that

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Speaker 1: they asked Barry to be the godfather of their new infant,

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Speaker 1: and they named him James Berry Munnick. And this name

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Speaker 1: was passed down through generations until James Berry Munnick Hurtzog,

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Speaker 1: who was South Africa's Prime Minister in nineteen Pretty cool,

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Speaker 1: what a legacy. So James Berry's crushing in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: In fact, by eighteen two, Lord Charles Somerset promoted him

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Speaker 1: to Colonial Medical Inspector which was a huge jump in

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Speaker 1: rank and responsibility. That same year, Barry introduced smallpox vaccination

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Speaker 1: to the Cape, twenty years before it was introduced in England.

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Speaker 1: He was made a member of the Vaccine Institute and

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Speaker 1: an inspector for the Leprosy Institute. US Medicine dot Com

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Speaker 1: writes quote Dr Barry was without question a pioneer in

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Speaker 1: those fields we now call health promotion and preventive medicine.

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Speaker 1: The fact that he received so little record mission for

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Speaker 1: extending the frontiers of military medicine seems mainly due to

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Speaker 1: his ability to upset the establishment with monotonous regularity. Plus

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Speaker 1: Barry's close friendship with Lord Charles Somerset started the rumor

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Speaker 1: mill turning, and we'll hear more about that right after

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Speaker 1: this commercial break. Welcome back to the show, y'all. So,

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Speaker 1: James Barry, as we said, could be extremely tactless and

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Speaker 1: rude when he was crusading for better conditions for soldiers

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Speaker 1: in the sick and he would clash with his superiors

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Speaker 1: all the time. But Lord Charles Somerset always managed to

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Speaker 1: smooth things over and protect James for many repercussions. In

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Speaker 1: eighteen twenty four, their close friendship was used against them

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Speaker 1: because a poster suddenly appeared, prominently displayed where the whole

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Speaker 1: town could see it, declaring that Lord Charles Somerset had

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Speaker 1: ben seen buggering Dr James Berry. And even though this

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Speaker 1: poster was torn down real quick, the rumors spread like

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Speaker 1: wildfire like they do, and did not die. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it actually turned into a major scandal. You know, once

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Speaker 1: you post a poster, it's there forever. It's like the Internet,

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Speaker 1: you know, people see it. It ain't going away. Now.

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Speaker 1: Here's where scholars are not a hundred percent sure the facts.

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Speaker 1: Some say that Lord Somerset knew James's secret and that

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Speaker 1: they did have a physical affair, and maybe we're even

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Speaker 1: in love. But if that's the case, Somerset really proved

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Speaker 1: himself to be a solid gold friend because we already

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Speaker 1: know that it was illegal to be gay at this

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Speaker 1: time in Britain or anywhere in the British Empire. Now,

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Speaker 1: as a lord and governor, it's not super likely that

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Speaker 1: Charles Somerset would have faced the harshest punishments like transportation, imprisonment,

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Speaker 1: or death. But at the very least, if he could

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Speaker 1: not beat these accusations, Somerset would be socially ruined, his

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Speaker 1: career in tatters. He would be forced to like laylow

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Speaker 1: somewhere in shame and discomfort. So consequences like that that

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Speaker 1: could lead any friends to betray another, Right, it would

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Speaker 1: be very easy for him to be like, I'm not gay,

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Speaker 1: because that's not a man, you know, like very quick

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Speaker 1: to solve that problem for himself. But if he did

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Speaker 1: know that James was really a woman, he never said

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Speaker 1: a word. So some historians do believe that Somerset had

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Speaker 1: no idea and they really just had a close personal

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Speaker 1: friendship and no one found out anything until James Barry

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Speaker 1: died and his body was inspected. Interesting, so we don't

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Speaker 1: really know how much romance was really going on between

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Speaker 1: these two. Could they have been doing it in such

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Speaker 1: a way that Somerset didn't know well that My speculation

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Speaker 1: station is that Somerset had a barongier of the long

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Speaker 1: ass situation. Y'all haven't heard that episode. You're going to

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Speaker 1: be very confused by this reference. Maybe James was into

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Speaker 1: it and he's like, all right, we can do this,

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Speaker 1: and he's he's like, let me get let me get

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Speaker 1: back there. Wow, you've got a really long assholes in

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Speaker 1: the back and goes all the way to up front

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Speaker 1: a guy. This was an actual poem written way back

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Speaker 1: in the day medieval times, where a guy a night,

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Speaker 1: a woman dressed as a night beat him and flashed

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Speaker 1: her ass at him. She made him kiss her as

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Speaker 1: she made him kiss her ass, and he thought then

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Speaker 1: instead of there being a volva there, it was just

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Speaker 1: a very long ass crack. He simply could not get

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Speaker 1: into his brain that this could be a lady. So

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Speaker 1: he was like, this guy must just have our real

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Speaker 1: insane asshole station Somerset had the same situation as a

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Speaker 1: long asshole. Amazing. Well, a government investigation was launched to

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Speaker 1: examine the truth of these accusations. You know, a poster

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Speaker 1: goes up and we got to get the government and

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00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, well either there's some gay sex going on

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Speaker 1: which is illegal, or somebody saying something against the governor,

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Speaker 1: which is also not cool. So yeah, now there's a

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Speaker 1: sub stack ran by a transit storian, David Obermeyer notes

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Speaker 1: on a Gentleman dot com which is all about James Berry,

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Speaker 1: and it says that this was the work of a

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Speaker 1: guy named William Edwards, an ex solicitor who already didn't

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Speaker 1: like Lord Charles Somerset, and he'd been accusing his government

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Speaker 1: of corruption for years, mostly because he thought Somerset showed

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Speaker 1: too much preference and lenience to his friends, including James Berry.

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Speaker 1: This guy's already saying James Berry and Somerset are too close,

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Speaker 1: and I don't like the way it's shaken out. And oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, maybe they're buggering each other. Right, I

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Speaker 1: know how to get some action around by accusations. I'll

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Speaker 1: say this now. Edwards friend, George Greeg was also accused

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Speaker 1: of putting up the poster. They did. It's a two

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Speaker 1: man job to put up a poster. He was the

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Speaker 1: guy who ran a local paper that Somerset had actually

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00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: been trying to shut down because summer Set wasn't exactly

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Speaker 1: a fan of freedom of the press. So Edwards and

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00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: Greek both accused of this kind of slander, and they

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Speaker 1: were tried and convicted of false accusations, and Edwards was transported.

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Speaker 1: He got shipped out of the country off somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: And now, as Obermeyer points out, we have no record

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Speaker 1: of how Somerset and James felt about this, except for

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Speaker 1: an account that James uncharacteristically quote burst into angry tears

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Speaker 1: when he was told about the poster. Other than that

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Speaker 1: we got nothing, we don't really know exactly, you know,

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Speaker 1: how they felt about this. Was this something that was

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00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: accurate or was it just some horrible things some mean

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Speaker 1: person said. But the scandal is part of the reason

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Speaker 1: that Lord Charles Somerset left Cape Colony in eighty six

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Speaker 1: after his term as governor ended. And then also James

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Speaker 1: Barry was given a new posting in Mauritius, probably related

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Speaker 1: to this. Yeah, so they each had to leave Cape

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Speaker 1: Town and each other with these accusations, even though they

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Speaker 1: were found false. And David Obermeyer in his article Infamy

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00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: and Infidelity has a lot of interesting research about how

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Speaker 1: this scandal kind of happened at a time when accusations

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Speaker 1: of sodomy we're tied up with class conflict and government corruption.

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Speaker 1: So kind of we just said, William was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: yelling about government corruption and nobody cares. I know, I'll

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Speaker 1: make a real crazy something they have to look into.

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Speaker 1: And that's because there was a case in eighteen eleven

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Speaker 1: where this bishop and member of parliament his name is

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Speaker 1: Percy Joscelyn was accused of sexually assaulting a coachman named

428
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: James Byrne. So just some guy, you know, a poor

429
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: man who was driving this coach and Percy uses his

430
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: influence to completely escape punishment. He got all these wealthy

431
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: man all his friends to come to court and be like, oh,

432
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: my friend Percy wouldn't ever, he's a upstanding gentleman, an MP.

433
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: Where is this coachman? What a poor man from nowhere?

434
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: No one knows him. Why would you like take his

435
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: word over this gentleman's word? So no problem. He everything

436
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: got dismissed. But then Percy doubled down and sued Burned

437
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: for libel, just for accusing him in the first place. Now,

438
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: eventually Burne was forced to sign a statement saying that

439
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: he had lied about being sexually assaulted by Percy, and

440
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: he was publicly flogged and nearly die well. Ten years later,

441
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: Percy Jocelyn Is arrested again for having sex with a

442
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: soldier in a tavern, and everybody realized, oh ship, James

443
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: Byrne was telling the truth of all time. So this whole,

444
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: this whole situation kind of made this case a symbol

445
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: of class conflict Overmyer writes quote. What better way to

446
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: characterize the aristocracy's cruelty and predatory intent towards the working

447
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: class than a lord who had not only gotten away

448
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: with sexually assaulting a working class man, but managed to

449
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: get the man beaten to within an inch of his

450
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: life for daring to speak up at all. So he's

451
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: basically saying that William and George and whoever was involved

452
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: with this poster, they knew that when they accused Barry

453
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: and Somerset of sodomy that would sort of wrap all

454
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: in all their complaints about government overreach and rules of

455
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: law for one class versus another. And that also they

456
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: kind of knew that James Berry, who at this point

457
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: in his life should have been respectably married with kids,

458
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, according to the grand traditions of society, would

459
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: suffer more from these accusations than Lord Charles Somerset because

460
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: he's a social nonconformist already, so everybody is very willing

461
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: to believe anything weird you want to say about him.

462
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: In fact, a lot of the whispers were, oh, Lord

463
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: Charles Somerset was seen with James Berry's wife, Dr Berry's wife,

464
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: and since he didn't have a wife, everybody knew what

465
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: that meant, and they would say, Oh, he's not the

466
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: kind to ever have a wife, you know what I mean.

467
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: It was like became very sly crazy shit about James Berry,

468
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: which would have worked for William because he didn't like

469
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: James Burry. So he's like, great, I want this guy

470
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: to be really uncomfortable. David Oberbier concludes the article quote.

471
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: Although the Somerset and Barry sodomy scandal has been given

472
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: little attention by Barry's biographers, it stands at an interesting

473
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: intersection of social tensions around governmental oversight, social reform, and

474
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: the disruptive power of non normative sex, both at home

475
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: in Britain and abroad. Damn. So, ultimately it all came

476
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: down to I got other things I want to get

477
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: taken care of, so let me put this flashy poster

478
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: up to get everyone's attention, right, Like I even said,

479
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: I thought, well, Lord Charles Somerset is a lord. You know,

480
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: he's a governor, and what's gonna happen. You know, he's

481
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: just gonna pay people off or something like. They don't.

482
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: That don't that's the point. They don't suffer in the

483
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: same way as the rest of us. But at this time,

484
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: after this this Percy Jocelyn case, it did become more

485
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: common to accuse lords of sodomy. And I think that's

486
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: why it was like, Oh, you care about this, so

487
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: that's what we'll do in that investigation. Maybe you'll uncoverag

488
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: some other bullshit, or at least it will be in

489
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: the papers and we can ruin this guy's reputation. Well,

490
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I mean, you know, if Charles Somerset

491
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: is just handing out jobs to his friends, you know,

492
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: I've been thinking, like, James Barry had a lot of

493
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 1: people looking out for him and given him privileges that

494
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: other people might not have had. And fortunately he turned

495
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: out to be an amazing person who changed the world

496
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: for the better. But if he had not, he'd just

497
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: be some other twerp who got you know, a bunch

498
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: of handouts, you know, from from rich family members and friends.

499
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: Uh and somebody, you know, he took someone's slot at

500
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: that school. Well, that's always the problem with nepotism is

501
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: that you're like, well, you have to hope that the

502
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: person is good, and that's not always true because part

503
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: of the problem with this is that there was this

504
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: whole kerfuffle where James Barry is like, all these people

505
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: are coming to South Africa and opening pharmaceutical like apothecaries

506
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: and stuff, and they're selling medicine, but the medicine is

507
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 1: not real medicine, it's snake oil. So he's like, I

508
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: want to be the one who licensed all the apothecaries

509
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: in Cape Town. And so people are like, oh, James

510
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: Berry's just power hungry. He's controlling, you know, But he

511
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: actually had a really good reason for that, like he's like,

512
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that this is legit what

513
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: you're selling to these people, um and so. But somebody

514
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: wanted their friends to have the job, so he was

515
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: always clashing with someone else who's wanted their friend to

516
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: come in and James was like no, and his friend

517
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: is protecting him, on and on. So it's just it

518
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: was like two shitty nepotisms at the same Well. Despite

519
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: Charles Somerset and James Berry parting ways after these accusations

520
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: and having to go take new jobs, everything that went down,

521
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: their friendship endeared. In fact, when James found out that

522
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: Charles Somerset had fallen seriously ill in eighty nine, James

523
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: went a wall to return to England and take care

524
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: of his friend, and he remained there until Somerset died

525
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty one, and when he was asked why

526
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 1: he left his post, James Barry apparently said, quote, I

527
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: was fed up with my hair and wanted a proper haircut,

528
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: which to which his superior Director General, Sir James McGregor

529
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: reportedly replied, quote it would seem, sir, that your audacity

530
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: is equal to the prodigious growth of your hair. I

531
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: love these wordy eighteenth century Yeah. But you know, despite

532
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: just dipping to go take care of his friend, James

533
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: Barry was welcomed back into the army anyway, and he

534
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: went off to Jamaica and then St. Helena, and in St.

535
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: Helena his temper reared its ugly head again and James

536
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: was court martialed and tried for quote conduct unbecoming the

537
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: character of an officer and a gentleman. What in the

538
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: world he pulls off his hat and it's like, I

539
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: am no gentleman. Well, there's no word on what this

540
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: behavior was. But he was found not guilty and he

541
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: was honorably acquitted, so you know, probably the same deal.

542
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: He probably just piste off the wrong guy again with

543
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: some sharp words. Yeah. He was on the Greek island

544
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: of Courtfu when the Crimean War broke out in eighteen

545
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: fifty four, and Barry's hospital took wounded soldiers who had

546
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: managed to survive the insanely bad conditions at the medical

547
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: hospital in Scutari in istanbul As. The Scutari hospital had

548
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the features of military hospitals that Barry

549
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: objected most strenuously to. No hygiene, poor sanitation, no equipment

550
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: to process food for the patients, overworked staff, and first

551
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: of all official indifferent. They're kind of like, do what

552
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: you gotta do. I don't care that man's bleeding. Pack

553
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: some mud in there and call it a day and

554
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: put him next to the healthy guy exactly. And I'm

555
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: busy right now. Just slices slices arm off and call

556
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: it a day. Uh. New policy in the hospital. All

557
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: the sick patients should make out with the staff that

558
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: that'll that'll work out great. We need to give them

559
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: more antibodies through saliva. It's it will work out fine

560
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: well with policies like that. Obviously, mass infections were common

561
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: and usually fatal. US Medicine dot Com writes quote. Dr

562
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: Barry received in all, four hundred and sixty two casualties

563
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: from Scutari, and there were only seventeen debts in his hospital. Obviously,

564
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: the casualties that were fit enough to travel to Corfu

565
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: were not as seriously wounded as those confined to Scutari,

566
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: but it is still a remarkable statistic for its day.

567
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: Good job. Just is a great doctor, James Barry crushing it.

568
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: Another person objected strenuously to the conditions of soldiers in

569
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: Crimean military hospitals, and her name was Florence Nightingale. Now

570
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: she gained her fame by showing up in Scutari with

571
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of nurses. She wrote please to the government,

572
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: being like, you don't understand these dreadful conditions, and then

573
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: she helped transform the hospital into a much cleaner one

574
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: with proper sanitation, more available medicines, better diet, be ter hygiene.

575
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: That rate sharply dropped. That's great. I have nothing negative

576
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: to say about Florence Nighton That's right. She's a great

577
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: historical hero. Now you think, with so much in common

578
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: that Florence Nightingale and James Berry would get along gangbusters.

579
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: But let us assure you they did not. No, they

580
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: met in eighteen fifty seven when Dr Barry's friend Fitzroy Somerset,

581
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: who's Lord Charles Somerset's brother, who was also now called

582
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: Lord Raglan, and yes, for the fashion forward among us,

583
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: the Raglan sleeve is named for him. Oh well, there

584
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: you go. Well, Lord Raglin invited Barry to Crimea to

585
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: hang out. Battlefield seems like a weird place for a

586
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 1: friendly visit, but if you heard our recent episode about

587
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: Lady Seymour Worseley, you'll know that battlefield tourism was actually

588
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: a favorite pastime with the aristocracy. They love to see

589
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: how it all went down. I could never die now.

590
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: James Barry met Florence Nightingale on a visit to the

591
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: proved Scutari Hospital, and there's no details of this argument

592
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: recorded anywhere, but reports say that they quote disliked each

593
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: other on site way in the future. When Florence Nightingale

594
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: heard about James Barry's death, she called him, quote the

595
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: most hardened creature that I have ever met in my life. Now.

596
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for Barry, Florence Nightingale was also kind of a

597
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: big deal at this point in her life. She had

598
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: revolutionized the idea of nursing and advocated for better conditions

599
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: and hospitals that led to fewer deaths from infection and disease.

600
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: She also had a lot of influence with the War Office,

601
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: and in eighteen fifty seven she may have been the

602
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: one to instigate a transfer for Dr Barry to Canadian

603
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: Command in Montreal as Inspected General of Hospitals at the

604
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: rank of Major General and US Medicine writes that quote.

605
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: In this way, she ensured that he never became Director

606
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: General or received the traditional knighthood that went with the

607
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: top job. So one of those like, oh, it's like

608
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: when um once transferred Captain Holts. You know, it's like, oh,

609
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: this is a promotion for you, and it totally screws

610
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: your career. That's right, It's very much like that sounds

611
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: really good, but actually wow, So a very onunch Holt

612
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: rivalry between these two. I hope they had similar insults

613
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: and forth, you grackle and who wouldn't want to see

614
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: a man fight a crocodile? Oh, Florence Nightingale, But if

615
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: you're here, who's guarding hades? Now? Even though Barry is

616
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: sixty years old by now and in failing health, he

617
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: still grabbed this Canadian command job with his usual fervor.

618
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: He campaigned for and got a better diet for soldiers.

619
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: He improved drainage and sewerage in the barracks, and he

620
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 1: replaced straw palette with hair mattresses and hair and feather pillows. Listen,

621
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: I said, hair mattress, excuse me? But then I was like,

622
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: I guess feathers isn't any weirders? Sounds of whose hair

623
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: is it? What kind of hair? The animal hair, human hair?

624
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to know, but I

625
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: guess it was better than whatever the straw they were

626
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: sleeping on. James Barry also went against opposition from every

627
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: level of the army to institute separate living quarters for

628
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: married soldiers. Before Barry, married soldiers and their wives lived

629
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: with single soldiers twenty two a room, and they just

630
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: had a thin sheet sort of dividing them from all

631
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: the fellas. So imagine trying to get get close in

632
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: those conditions. Not great US Medicine says that Barry thought

633
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: this led to the dehumanizing of families and contributed to

634
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: alcoholism and venereal disease. So he created separate accommodations for them,

635
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: and he clamped down on alcohol use. Now we are

636
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: know James Barry is a teetotaler, so he's probably like

637
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: alcohol sucks anyway, But US Medicine writes quote, alcohol was

638
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 1: universally consumed in huge quantities. It was seen as an

639
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: essential part of military life, despite the fact that it

640
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: was the single greatest contributor to accidental deaths at the time.

641
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: Many a soldier died from hypothermia while sleeping in a

642
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: drunken stupor. So it does seem like another thing if

643
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm here to keep people alive. That's my

644
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 1: whole point. Uh, here's a quick one. Let's not make

645
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: out on the mouth without somebody who is leprosy and

646
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: also stopped drinking. Now, the same year that Barry was

647
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: posted to Canada, which is eighteen fifty seven, Florence Nightingale's

648
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: Royal Commission on Army Health was formed, and this was

649
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: intended to improve and observe conditions in military hospitals scientific

650
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: American Rights quote. After ten years of sanitary reform, in

651
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy three, Nightingale reported that mortality among the soldiers

652
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: in India had decline from sixty nine to eighteen per

653
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: one thousand. Nice, that's a huge drop. But as US

654
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: Medicine writes quote, even though it was widely known that

655
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: doctor James Barry was responsible for devising and initiating many

656
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: of the reforms the Royal Commission endorsed, Florence Nightingale appears

657
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: to have been instrumental in ensuring that he never received

658
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: more than a passing recognition. He paid dearly for their

659
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: spat in the crimean war. Damn Wow, Florence Nightingale holds

660
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: a grood. Who would have thought that she's the villain

661
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: of the week in my opinion? Well, also, what did

662
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: James Berry say? I do want to know? I wish

663
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: I could be there. That's one of those things. I'm like,

664
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: if I could be the fly on the wall, that

665
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: would be such a great conversation to hear, because you know,

666
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: he was like, you aren't doing enough for something. You know,

667
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: he was like, whatever it was, it cut deep. Now.

668
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: There's something interesting about Florence nighting Else that she didn't

669
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: not respect women very much, herself being one and you know,

670
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: feeling that there was a place for women in medicine.

671
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 1: She actually didn't really have a lot of use for women.

672
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: She didn't like women. She preferred men a lot. So

673
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, is that weird? Is there something weird with

674
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: like did she kind of like unconsciously be like that's

675
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: a lady and I don't trust her. I don't know,

676
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: or like you said, James Barry is just a bit

677
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: of a jerk. Well, in eighteen fifty nine, Dr Barry

678
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: became ill with pneumonia and he was sent home to England.

679
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,879
Speaker 1: Later that year, he was placed on half pay and

680
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: forced to retire despite his strenuous objections. So he went

681
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: on home to London with only his servants and his

682
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: dog for company. But during a very hot month in

683
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: the summertime, Dr Barry contracted dysentery and on July eighteen

684
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: sixty five, Dr James Berry died at seventy years old. Now,

685
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: for most people that would be the end of the story,

686
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: but not Dr Barry. His story was basically just beginning.

687
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: So we'll find out more about of that right after

688
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: these words welcome back. After James Berry's body was discovered,

689
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: his usual doctor, Major McKinnon was called in to declare

690
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: James debt. Dr McKinnon had known James Berry for years,

691
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: so he didn't even bother to examine his body. He

692
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,479
Speaker 1: just wrote up a death certificate, and a day later,

693
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: an unnamed nobleman's valet arrived to take away Barry's dog

694
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: and his personal papers, and he gave his servants some

695
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: money to return to Jamaica. That was that boring death stories.

696
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: But then a char woman was brought in to prepare

697
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: the body for burial, and many sources say there's no

698
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: clear indication of who this was, although US Medicine calls

699
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: her Sophia Bishop. She stripped the body to wash it

700
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: and redress it in burial clothes, as was her job,

701
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: but only to discover to her amazement that genitally speaking,

702
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: Dr Barry was a woman. What Sophia even suspected that

703
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 1: James Barry had been a mother, given that he had

704
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: some stretch marks on his stomach. As we had mentioned

705
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the episode, that secret baby Juliana

706
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: that might have been his. Now, apparently Sophia was having

707
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: trouble getting paid for her funeral services, so she marched

708
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 1: right to Dr McKinnon, and she demanded that he pay

709
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: her right then and there, or she would go straight

710
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: to the press. Not long after, Dr McKinnon received a

711
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 1: letter from the General Register Office asking him to verify

712
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 1: her claims right there, like, we got a death certificate

713
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: here that says a guy died, but this lady saying

714
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: a lady died. What's going on now? Dr McKinnon wrote

715
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: in response that he had known Dr Barry for years.

716
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: He attended him as a physician. He never suspected a

717
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: thing about his gender, one way or the other, and

718
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,479
Speaker 1: he continued quote On one occasion after Dr Barry's death,

719
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: I was sent for to the office of Sir Charles

720
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: at Gregor, and there the woman who performed the last

721
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: offices for doctor Barry was waiting to speak to me.

722
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,959
Speaker 1: She wished to obtain some perquisites of her employment, which

723
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: the lady who kept the lodging house in which Dr

724
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: Barry died had refused to give her. Amongst other things,

725
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: she said Dr Barry was a female, and that I

726
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: was a pretty doctor not to know this, and that

727
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: she would not like to be attended by me. She

728
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: then said that she had examined the body and that

729
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: it was a perfect female, and farther that there were

730
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: marks of her having a child. When very young. I

731
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: then inquired, how have you formed this conclusion? The woman,

732
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: pointing to the lower part of her stomach, said, from

733
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: Mark's here. I am a married woman and the mother

734
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: of nine children, and I ought to know. The woman

735
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: seemed to me to think that she had become acquainted

736
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: with a great secret and wished to be paid for

737
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: keeping it. I had formed her that all doctor Barry's

738
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: relatives were dead, and that it was no secret of mine,

739
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: and that my own impression was that doctor Barry was

740
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: a hermaphrodite. But whether doctor Barry was male female or

741
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: her for died, I do not know, nor had I

742
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 1: any purpose in making the discovery. I love this letter.

743
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: This lady is so rude. I love her being like you,

744
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: what a ship doctor you are? Well, you know she's

745
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: trying to get paid. Somebody wasn't paying her, and you

746
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: know she should get paid, I guess, but I guess

747
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 1: they don't work out. Who does that if somebody right

748
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: like has no immediate family nearby? What a weird Well.

749
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: Dr McKinnon said, it ain't my job, and he refused

750
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: to pay this later it ain't my secrets, and as promised,

751
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: she made the story public and of course, it's spread

752
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: like wildfire. Letters appeared in print from people who knew Berry,

753
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: either claiming to have known all along or expressed complete

754
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: disbelief our old buddy. Charles Dickens even wrote a fictitious

755
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: account of James Barry's life in eighteen sixty seven in

756
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: his weekly literary magazine All the Year Round. And it's

757
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: in this where Dickens gave the name Black John two,

758
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: Barry's servant. It's the only place know of the servant

759
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: to be named generally referred to as John. Yeah, if

760
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 1: you look up this story, you might see John other places,

761
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: but apparently originated with Charles's imagination. Now, this whole scandal

762
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: such a kerfuffle that the British Army chose to seal

763
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: Dr James Berry's records for a hundred years a little embarrassed.

764
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: I guess he was buried as Dr James Berry, Inspector

765
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: General of Hospitals. And it wasn't until the nineteen fifties

766
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: that historian Isabel Ray gained access to the army records

767
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 1: and concluded that he was the niece of the painter

768
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: James Berry. And it wasn't until sixteen that all the

769
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: pieces of James's life were put together by Michael Duprez

770
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: and Jeremy Dronfield. So of course the remaining questions are

771
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: pretty impossible to answer without James Berry himself here to

772
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: answer them. And David Obermeyer dedicates a couple of articles

773
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: arguing that the insistence on James Berry having had a

774
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: child and even the attribution of his full name being

775
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: James Miranda Stewart Berry, which you will see a lot

776
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: if you If you type in James Berry doctor, it

777
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: comes up as James Miranda Berry all the time. But

778
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: James Berry never used the name Miranda himself and any

779
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: of his letters, he never used it. So where did

780
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,439
Speaker 1: Miranda come from? So David Obermeyer's argument is that that's

781
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: sort of a way from modern historians or modern thinkers

782
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: to underline and emphasize that this was a woman and

783
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: not a man. So they really want to hammer home

784
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: Miranda a female name. They really want to hammer home

785
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: this kid so that you are making sure you think, oh,

786
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: this is a lady in men's clothes. Um. Now, Obermeyer

787
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: points out first of all that James doesn't use the

788
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: names Miranda or Stewart in any of his papers, and

789
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: also that The American Academy of Dermatology cites several reasons

790
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: aside from pregnancy, that a person may have stretch marks

791
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: on their stomach, including sudden growth, sudden gaining or losing

792
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: of weight, gaining muscle mass, certain genetic can to sans.

793
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: We also do know that James had a dysenterry, so

794
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 1: it is possible that they had a lot of weight

795
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: loss and that might be where that came from. There's

796
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: also no real evidence that a baby ever happened. As

797
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: we mentioned in the start, Julianna, the young sister, has

798
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: been pretty convincingly linked to James's mother having an affair

799
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 1: rather than James himself having a baby. But this pregnancy,

800
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 1: whether it existed or not, is enough evidence for some

801
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: that James was and wanted to be a woman. Obermeyer

802
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: shares a tweet from eighteen that says, quote, they're trying

803
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: to trans another woman who defied stereotypes and pretended to

804
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 1: be a man so she could practice medicine. James Barry

805
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: born Margaret Anne Bulky also gave birth to a baby,

806
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: So one female, A lot of problem, a lot of

807
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 1: a lot of presuppositions in this week. For sure, it's

808
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 1: really not fair to say that we know some transman

809
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: can definitely have babies and have had babies, um, and

810
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: it's weird to say that's something that might have happen,

811
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: and before she chose to transition has anything to do

812
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: with him. Now you know what I mean? Right? The

813
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: Guardian also has an article detailing a debate that sprung

814
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: up after a new novel about James Berry's life came

815
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: out that only used she her pronounce for James and

816
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: called him quote a heroine for our time. Novelist Celeste

817
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: Ning wrote that quote many are telling you Berry himself

818
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: used and wanted he him pronounce, and writer Alexandra Aran

819
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: tweeted quote, he categorized himself as a man, lived as

820
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 1: a man, died as a man, and would have preferred

821
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,760
Speaker 1: to be buried as a man. There's no room for interpretation.

822
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: The author of the novel in question, E. J. Levy,

823
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: wrote that quote in death as in life, Dr Barry

824
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: and Gender's controversy, but one thing is clear. She refused

825
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: facile gender categories. So do I in my novel to

826
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: insist Barry as trans distorts complex history. There's no evidence

827
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: Barry considered herself trans. She dressed as a man as

828
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: needed to be a soldier doctor. I used she her

829
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: pronouns as her biographers do, right. But some of these

830
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: biographers clapped back on that because another of James's biographers,

831
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: whose name is Rachel Holmes, wrote The Secret Life of

832
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: Dr James Barry in two thousand two, and Rachel told

833
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: The Guardian that using female pronouns was quote really quite disrespectful.

834
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 1: As a young feminist. When I set out to write

835
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,919
Speaker 1: this book, which was based on PhD research, I thought

836
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: I was writing a story of a woman who cross

837
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: dressed in search of fame and fortune because she couldn't

838
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: become a doctor wearing skirts. I was struck very quickly

839
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 1: when I started doing research that this wasn't the case

840
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: at all. In her opinion, Dr Barry had androgen insensitivity syndrome,

841
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: meaning he was genetically male but had female or ambiguous genitalia.

842
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 1: Let's sort of put Rachel Holmes in agreement with our

843
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: major Dr McKinnon, who thought Barry might be right, who

844
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: thought Barry might be a hermaphrodite, or we would call

845
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: it intersects today. Holmes believes that today James Barry would

846
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 1: identify as a trans man, but some are not so

847
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: sure one way or the other, like one Cardiff professor

848
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: and an author, Ann Heilman does think that by today's standards,

849
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: James would be trans, given that he not only lived

850
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: and presented as a man to the outside world, but

851
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: in his private life as well. But still, she tells

852
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: the Guardian quote, I don't think that Barry can be

853
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: easily mapped onto contemporary trans thought, though of course there

854
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: have always been trans people. The lived and felt gender

855
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 1: identity of an eighteenth and nineteenth century person would have

856
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: been very different from our contemporary identity politics and Jeremy Dronfield,

857
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: who co authored the biography Dr James Barry, a woman

858
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 1: ahead of her time with Michael Duprez, says he chose

859
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: to use male pronouns throughout, saying that when Margaret first

860
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: became a man, it was intended to be temporary. And

861
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: he tells the Guardian quote, there's evidence that Barry missed

862
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: being a woman, but we also know that he relished

863
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: being a man, his behavior exceeding what was necessary for disguise.

864
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 1: But he says the claim that Barry left a will

865
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 1: asking to be remembered as a man is false, so

866
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: we don't have any definitive idea of how he thought

867
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: of himself. Jon Field concludes, quote, if Margaret had been

868
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: born in ninety nine instead of seventeen eighty nine, free

869
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: to be a surgeon and soldier, would she have chosen

870
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: to become a man? On balance? I don't think so,

871
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: but Margaret might have identified as non binary. I have

872
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: no argument with seeing James Barry as a transgender icon

873
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: or Margaret as a feminist role model. I do take

874
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: issue with those who insist on recognizing one and erasing

875
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, I like that too, because I think

876
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: this comes up a lot for us where you have

877
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: women who were incredibly constrained by their gender. So it

878
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: wasn't any expression of I wish I were a man,

879
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: wasn't about their body. It was about how they got

880
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: to move through the world and how much freedom they had,

881
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,320
Speaker 1: and how much choice they had and how many options

882
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:08,280
Speaker 1: they had, and where they could travel and with whom

883
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: and where you know. Um. Some people are arguing now

884
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: that Louisa may Alcott would be a transman because she

885
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: wrote a lot, you know, I wish I were a

886
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: man with that I were a man, But it was

887
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: a lot to do with because women aren't allowed to

888
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: do what I want to do, so I wish I

889
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 1: were dude so I could do what I want to do,

890
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: rather than I wish women were allowed to do what

891
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: I want to do, you know what I mean, like

892
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: the society around it, it seemed easier to change your

893
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: own gender than to change the society that you were

894
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: living in. I guess well, And there's value in kind

895
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: of re examining people, you know in history through you know,

896
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: all of our modern understandings and not even understandings, but

897
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: just conversations and theories and things that were coming up

898
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: with now. And I think, as drown Field says, it

899
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: can be both. I mean this is this is a

900
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: person who died a long as time ago and has

901
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: no idea what we're talking about today in terms of

902
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: how they would identify, how they would move through the world.

903
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: It's totally incomparable in a lot of ways. So is

904
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,240
Speaker 1: their value in James Barry as a trans icon. Absolutely

905
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: is their value in saying this person Margaret Born, a woman,

906
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: grew up and found a way through the world to

907
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 1: be a doctor when women weren't allowed to. Yeah, there's

908
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: value in that story too. Um and then just kind

909
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,359
Speaker 1: of you know, intellectual arguing about which one is more

910
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: accurate seems kind of frivolous. You can see why it

911
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: matters in a way just from that tweet that we

912
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: read that Obermeyer shared, because the tweet is very aggressive.

913
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,919
Speaker 1: It's very much like they're trying to do a thing

914
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 1: again and stay a lady. But there definitely were a lady,

915
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: not a man. I don't want to hear that, you know.

916
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: It's just very defensively written, So you can see why

917
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: somebody would be like, I really want to let you

918
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: know that that's not the case. I I do want there.

919
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: I want to be able to point to to ambiguously

920
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: trans people through history, so you're not saying that my

921
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: lived experience is just some little fat or trend that

922
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,479
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do or whatever. And there are lots

923
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: of people like James Barry. There's several people through history

924
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: women who dressed like men in order to do really brave,

925
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: very courageous things like fighting wars and crazy ship or

926
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: the opposite, like the Bosom Buddies. But they're not allowed

927
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: to have the apartment, you know, or or um or

928
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: be a jazz musician or whatever. You know like there's

929
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: there's so many. There's a few on our list that

930
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: we're definitely gonna get to and in some cases, the

931
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,439
Speaker 1: jazz musician, for example, is Billy Tipton. They certainly wanted

932
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 1: to be a man that was That is pretty unambiguous

933
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: with others. It's really just like, I have this spirit

934
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: in me and this courage in me that I want

935
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: to be out there doing these things that only men

936
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 1: get to do. So what do I care. I'll put

937
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: some pants on if you care so much, Fine, I

938
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 1: don't care. But they didn't have any kind of dysmorphia

939
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: about who they were necessarily, but it was just about

940
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: feeling constrained by your society. So in a way, this

941
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: part is also feeling constrained by society. You know, Obermeyer

942
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: clearly feels a little constrained by society and wants to

943
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: prove like this person was a man and I need that.

944
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 1: I need that to be true, and some people really

945
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: need it to not be true. Right, So I like

946
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: that quote from Jeremy John Felt as well because it

947
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: felt like the most encompassing of it. I think it's

948
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: true that there's really no way to know. There is

949
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: no answer in a modern context. You know, there is

950
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: only the exact story of James Barry's life is all

951
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: we have, you know, and we can't say, well, but

952
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: if today you know, because I don't know, if you know,

953
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 1: taking it out of a gender conversation, if George Washington

954
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 1: were alive today, would he have been a revolutionary general?

955
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: Or would he have been a podcaster? Like you know,

956
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: who knows? I don't know. I can't say that he

957
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: probably would have been a podcaster. It probably would have

958
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 1: been the word military history with George Washington. I don't.

959
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 1: I don't feel good about what his podcast would have

960
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: probably not. I do find it a little weird that E. J.

961
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: Levy is up here being like, oh, I used she

962
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: her pronouns like her biographers do, and then immediately biographers

963
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: are like, that's really disrespectful, like what biographies are you reading? Then?

964
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: But then Jeremy john Field is like, I used him pronouns.

965
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 1: But the book is called A Woman ahead of Her Time?

966
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,919
Speaker 1: So how did you use male pronouns throughout the book

967
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: when you're talking? You know, you immediately told me that

968
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about a woman. Well, and he wrote that

969
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: with Michael Dupris, did they alternate chapters. I know, right,

970
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, but um, like I guess E. J.

971
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 1: Levy was reading only the biographers who used she her

972
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 1: pronouns or who only used the seventies or the fifties biographies,

973
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 1: was select. Yeah, But Charles Dickens, even when he was

974
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 1: writing the article, in all the year long of James

975
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: Barry's life, still called him a man, still called him

976
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: he Most people did. So it's so interesting to me

977
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 1: that like they managed the pronouns better than that we

978
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: do now. But yeah, it's a it's a fascinating tale

979
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: though about James Barry. And there's never a time that

980
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 1: he seemed to consider leaving the army or the medical

981
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: profession to like, I don't know, get married and have

982
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,919
Speaker 1: kids or anything like that that you might expect him

983
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: to want at some point in his life. Um No,

984
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: he was like, I want to be a doctor. This

985
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: is what I want. I'm doing what i want, so

986
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: I'm happy with this. And as far as we know,

987
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: he lived as a man in private as well. There's

988
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: no like dress at home that he put on to

989
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 1: feel like himself or something he felt like himself. So

990
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, the the main lesson I think is that

991
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: when society gets off their boot off your neck, you

992
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: can feel like yourself in any number of clothes or

993
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: roles and it doesn't have to mean one thing or

994
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: another about your sexuality. What a nice lesson my next, society,

995
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: stick of your ship with the heavy boots on our next.

996
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: I now right, we're really suffering over here. No, but

997
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: I really want to thank Milo Ira at Bond Milo

998
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: for this great suggestion because it was a really interesting

999
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 1: story to look into. And I love James Barry. I

1000
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: I really you have to. You have to admire the

1001
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: courage of this person's convictions, because however they felt, they

1002
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: were like, let me get in, I want to get

1003
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: my hands dirty and I want to make things better,

1004
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: and honestly didn't seem to really care about this credit

1005
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: thing or this knighthood like that. That's shitty of Florence Nightingale.

1006
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: But there's no indication that James Barry particularly cared. You know,

1007
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: for him, it was like I want to practice the medicine,

1008
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: and who amongst us is willing to go toe to

1009
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: toe with Florence Nightingale. You know, maybe it's about time

1010
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: somebody said something with James Barry spoke up. I love

1011
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 1: the idea though, of like Florence Nightingale having shown up

1012
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: and done all this work and improved conditions like a

1013
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: lot maybe. And then James Barry shows up and he's like,

1014
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: what's this ship? Looks like trash? You should see my

1015
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: hospital in Corfu, you know what I mean. And she's like,

1016
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 1: I'm sweating over here. I should have seen it a

1017
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: week ago. Oh dare you, sir? Like Florence Nightingale, I

1018
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: don't know if you heard, I might be somebody and

1019
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna really make you heard for this conversation. Well,

1020
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: thanks again, Milo, and if you like them, have a

1021
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: suggestion for us, please send it our way. Our email

1022
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: is ridic Romance at gmail dot com right or reach

1023
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: out on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Dynamite Boom and

1024
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: I'm at Oh Great, It's Eli and the show is

1025
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: at ridic Romance. Don't forget to drop us a review

1026
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcast. Thanks for joining us in the new year,

1027
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 1: and we can't wait to see all in the next episode.

1028
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: I Love you by