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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff from the science Lab from how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com. Hey, this is Alison I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like the science editor at how stuff first dot com.

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Speaker 1: And this is Robert Lamb, science rider how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com. So you're having a little fune with science.

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Speaker 1: But before we get there, let's let's talk about weight. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's let's do it. Okay, you're looking at me with

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Speaker 1: your eyeballs? Yes, how much do you think in eyeball? Ways?

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Speaker 1: Left or right? All right? Right? Um? Either actually I

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Speaker 1: don't know eight grahams, Yeah, ballpark for an adult eyeball? Uh?

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Speaker 1: What about the weight of your skin? For I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Let's say it's a hypothetical man or a woman like

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Speaker 1: all of it a pile of skin on a scale?

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Speaker 1: How much would you think in my way? Oh? Ten pounds? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: actually it's nine pounds. I thought that was surprised. We

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Speaker 1: haven't how much for the weight of the soul. The

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Speaker 1: weight of the soul, well, a lot of people would

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Speaker 1: say that the soul you will either doesn't exist or

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Speaker 1: something that's so intangible can't be but it can't be waited.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't stop people from trying. That's what we

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Speaker 1: love about science, taking scientific principles, taking physics, taking our

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Speaker 1: understanding of electricity, et cetera, and trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what the soul is and where it comes from. So

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Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about today. Weighing the song. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about one of the early soul wears. This guy

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Speaker 1: by the name of Duncan McDougall. Yes, he's really the

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Speaker 1: the grandfather of soul weighing, like, this is the guy.

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Speaker 1: This is where we get the whole twenty one Graham's thing. Correct. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is the Hollywood movie if Benicio del Toro, Sean

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Speaker 1: Penn and Naomi wants Yeah, McDougall wrote that. But but

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Speaker 1: he did weigh a bunch of eternally ill people. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Background the nine early nineteen Dreds. He went to sort

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Speaker 1: of a hospice place for people with a late stage

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Speaker 1: to be I think back then they call that consumption.

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Speaker 1: And what he proposed doing was getting a couple of

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Speaker 1: dying people, or getting one dying person at a time,

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Speaker 1: and they're kind of last throws of death and putting

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Speaker 1: them on this scale caught in all so that all

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Speaker 1: of their body mass and assorted medical trappings would be

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Speaker 1: on the scale and then um ascertaining the time of

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Speaker 1: death by pleasing a stethoscope and listening to the heartbeat.

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Speaker 1: Like so when the heart stopped beating, that's when the

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Speaker 1: person died, according to McDougal, Yeah, it's basically and weighing them. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like the the analogy were using earlier was that

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like if you set out in the

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Speaker 1: morning with your wall in your back pocket and you

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Speaker 1: wait X amount, and then an hour later, if someone

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Speaker 1: were to steal your wallet, you would weigh slightly less,

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Speaker 1: and you'd be able to determine how much the wallet

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Speaker 1: weigh based on the difference. So basically that's what McDougald

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Speaker 1: is trying to do, but in you know, instead of

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Speaker 1: say going to a place where wallets are frequently stolen,

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Speaker 1: he's going to a place where he's pretty much guaranteed

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Speaker 1: they're going to be some human deaths. And the consumption

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Speaker 1: patients tended to not put up a struggle. They tended

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Speaker 1: to be very still during the the final moments and

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Speaker 1: uh in makee for particularly good UH test subjects. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not like they were having like these crazy death

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Speaker 1: spasms or anything like that. I think they're pretty much

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Speaker 1: comatose near the end. And yet um, he basically only

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Speaker 1: got the twenty one grams from one particular patient, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean these it's not like each one just was

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Speaker 1: like clockwork, oh, twenty one, twenty one grams. Now he

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Speaker 1: had he had one patient where he was able to

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Speaker 1: determine like this, uh uh, this this particular weight loss.

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Speaker 1: Um others who either wasn't able to nail down exactly

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Speaker 1: when the patient died, or there was some sort of

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Speaker 1: interference in the proceedings. Yeah, so we're talking about an

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Speaker 1: experiment that consisted of six subjects with one result that

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Speaker 1: people have picked up on um. And then you have

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Speaker 1: comp ocations like as Robert said, like determining the time

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Speaker 1: of death. And then other people were thinking that maybe

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Speaker 1: it was this thing called insensible weight loss basically like

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Speaker 1: you know, where the patients, you know, sweating it out,

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Speaker 1: or maybe they were losing this very minute uh mass

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Speaker 1: through breeding or stuff like that. Right, And these scales,

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Speaker 1: these fearbank scales, were not designed for weighing dead people

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Speaker 1: at the moment of death. So there are any number

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Speaker 1: of other complications that it could occur with like how

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Speaker 1: the person is position on the scales is part of

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Speaker 1: the cot hanging off the side. Um. And and then

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Speaker 1: you know even like small amounts of movement on their

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Speaker 1: part there, you know a number of factors. I think

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Speaker 1: bank Doogal even got this published in a legitimate period

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Speaker 1: view journal. Yeah, early early twentieth century you saw a

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Speaker 1: lot of paranormal research showing up in you know, legitimate

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Speaker 1: scientific publications. And the whole thing is a lot of

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Speaker 1: this is new science, you know, and and people were

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Speaker 1: very excited about it, so they're you know, basically applying

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Speaker 1: it to everything. You know. It's I have to admit

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Speaker 1: I was curious about it. Oh, it's fascinating, uh, fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely operating on the fringe of science, if you

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Speaker 1: want to call it that. But it's it's pretty darn interesting.

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Speaker 1: So McDougald got started with with humans, but then he

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Speaker 1: he just got that one subject and there's all sorts

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Speaker 1: of purecratic red red tape. But animals a lot easier. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: dogs in particular, dog after dog after dog. And what

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Speaker 1: he didn't find much with dogs actually did he? Yes,

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Speaker 1: there was no discernible weight loss um, which leads to

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Speaker 1: one of two possibilities. Either one, um, dogs have no souls,

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Speaker 1: or two, um, it's so, you know, such a small

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Speaker 1: soul that you can't even measure it, or I guess three.

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Speaker 1: All of this is kind of bs So then alone

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Speaker 1: comes uh. I mean people, people are fascinating with this,

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Speaker 1: And McDougald wasn't the only guy. So there's a a

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Speaker 1: high school physics teacher who took up the ball where

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Speaker 1: McDougal kind of ceased to Yeah, man by the name

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Speaker 1: of Twining stepped in and continue this research with mice,

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Speaker 1: because even though there's some pretty small breeds of dog,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to say, stuff alive mouse in

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Speaker 1: a test tube and then seal it off and let

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Speaker 1: it suffocate and then see if there's any change in weight.

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Speaker 1: You say that, but I can't imagine there's anything easy

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Speaker 1: about that, And I'm pretty sure anilura's advocates would not

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Speaker 1: be so happy with the idea of this. But this

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Speaker 1: is what this guy was doing his spare time. He

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Speaker 1: was trying to figure out what the the weight of

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Speaker 1: a mouse's soul was. You gotta respect him for trying.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's not the easiest question to answer, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it is but like we were talking about this earlier,

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Speaker 1: it's not I mean, it's very hard to argue that

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Speaker 1: this is important research. You know, it doesn't have a

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Speaker 1: lot of applications in the right because what what are

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Speaker 1: you gonna do with thee of your soul? You can't say,

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Speaker 1: save a wife with it? You you you know you're gonna

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Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't have like a minimum soul requirement

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Speaker 1: for the for the local country club. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of pointless alone. Comes to this guy named Donald Carpenter. So, um,

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Speaker 1: he's a self published author and expert in all sorts

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Speaker 1: of wields, none of which I think are officially recognized

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Speaker 1: by degrees. Yes, um, but Carpenter had a really need

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Speaker 1: spin on it. So instead of weighing when the soul

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Speaker 1: leaves the body, he wanted to measure when the soul

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Speaker 1: enters the body. And what would be good candidates for

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Speaker 1: for such an experiment pregnant ladies or technically like spirit mediums.

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Speaker 1: So that's a whole another that's a whole another area

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Speaker 1: paranormal research. So Carpenter thought, well, you know, I'll get

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Speaker 1: a bunch of newly pregnant ladies and I'll wait for um,

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Speaker 1: a couple of days. I think it's like forty three

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Speaker 1: days when the when you can first attect brain waves

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Speaker 1: and the fetus. And he thought, you know on that day,

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Speaker 1: that's when, um, you know, the soul will gain weight.

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Speaker 1: These pregnant ladies will show this this new soul. Wait

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Speaker 1: if you will. He also decided to get into the

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Speaker 1: whole dog soul business by predicting that a dog soul

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Speaker 1: lays weighs less than one eight grahams, meaning that it's

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Speaker 1: just too light for measurement. Um. Yeah, he said, all

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Speaker 1: of you guys who have gotten gone about you know,

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Speaker 1: waging animals, have gone about it wrong. And here's what

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Speaker 1: you know, you just weren't using the right skills right

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Speaker 1: and uh he but then he even goes so far

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Speaker 1: as to say Jesus Is soul would would weigh sixty

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Speaker 1: four grams. He starts talking about lepre cons um. The

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Speaker 1: other Mary Roach goes into this in her book Spookum

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Speaker 1: and more fantastic hilarious detail. But yeah, Carpenter was kind

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Speaker 1: of a nut, kind of anne. His book is still available,

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Speaker 1: Physically Weighing the Soul. I would like to read it.

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Speaker 1: I have to conse check it out and then along

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Speaker 1: outside of the realm of nunners comes this guy from

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Speaker 1: Duke University, a guy by the name of Gerald Nahum, yeah,

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Speaker 1: or Jerry Nahum. This this is a man with an

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Speaker 1: m D from Stanford undergraduate, came from Yale Um. He

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Speaker 1: was with Duke University and now he's with the f

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Speaker 1: D A and U. And this guy took like a

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Speaker 1: very high tech approach to the whole situation, right, He

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Speaker 1: wasn't just looking at it and saying, well, I'll put

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Speaker 1: you on a scale and see what the weight loss

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Speaker 1: or weight differences. I mean, he's still talking about putting

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Speaker 1: people on scale, but he's talking about like an ultra

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Speaker 1: sensitive scale and one that's you know, completely sealed off

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Speaker 1: and then surrounded by basically every kind of center you

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Speaker 1: could imagine, especially electromagnetic energy detectors to gauge radiant energy.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about like, you know, if the if

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Speaker 1: the soul were, you know, were to leave the you know,

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Speaker 1: body and waves, et cetera, they could he could somehow

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Speaker 1: possibly m detect this energy. And if he was able

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Speaker 1: to detect something leaving the box or emanating from it,

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Speaker 1: then there'd be a change in weight, right, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I mean energy. This would be due to energy loss

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Speaker 1: on a very minute scale. All right, This all basically

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Speaker 1: breaks down to the idea that the soul, you know,

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Speaker 1: and he doesn't even talk Naham doesn't even talk in

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Speaker 1: terms of the soul. Really basically he's talking about consciousness

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Speaker 1: and then consciousness as information, all right, and least quantum

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Speaker 1: le information has a slight weight. It's energy, right, So

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Speaker 1: like a thought you're having has has energy, and thus

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Speaker 1: the soul has energy. But how exactly we quantify that

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Speaker 1: is what it's also going with the idea that energy

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Speaker 1: can neither be created nor destroyed somewhere. You know, if

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Speaker 1: the if the cat's not in the house, he must

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Speaker 1: have gone outside, must be in the art. It's it's

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you know. So so yeah, so

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Speaker 1: for today him, it seemed pretty obvious that the soul,

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Speaker 1: consciousness whatever, this energy is going somewhere, and he proposed

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Speaker 1: an idea on how to observe it and uh and

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Speaker 1: see what it is. Of course, he didn't exactly get

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Speaker 1: funding for it because it believed the cost was like

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, plus the fact that

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Speaker 1: I think not too many people were well versed in

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Speaker 1: stuff like you know, souls or quantum physics or biology.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty complicated stuff um and uh and and but

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Speaker 1: but he tried, he tried to get some some funding

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Speaker 1: behind it. In fact, he went to the Vatican and

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Speaker 1: this yes, and this is a this is a also

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Speaker 1: told in Mary Roaches spook Um at the next one

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Speaker 1: story from her interview with Naan. Uh. He went to

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Speaker 1: went to the Vatican to see if they were interested

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Speaker 1: in this kind of thing. Vatican, you know, they were

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Speaker 1: just like they passed on it because basically there's there's

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Speaker 1: no percentage in it for for for the Church. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like either you back up what back up something

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Speaker 1: that is an article of faith with everybody that everyone

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Speaker 1: just believes in, or you like disprove it with science.

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Speaker 1: So there's no there's no positive spin on it for him.

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Speaker 1: So that so he goes home and packing, But then

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Speaker 1: they end up calling him back for a second interview. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And this time he goes in and they have Vatican

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Speaker 1: scientists there. They have we're talking guys with backgrounds and

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Speaker 1: astrophysics and uh um and you know in quantum mechanics

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Speaker 1: and and all this send up and this time. They're

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Speaker 1: not just saying they're not interested. They're pleading with him

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Speaker 1: not to conduct any of this research. Right. They figured

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Speaker 1: he'd open this window into the world. Although I mean,

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Speaker 1: if these souls are departing, presumably there is a window

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Speaker 1: that's opening all the time when people are dying. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they're like, the basic idea, I think the exact

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Speaker 1: quote was open a window that might not be closed

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Speaker 1: after opening, which you could sort of take to being like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the idea of like a notion being introduced

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Speaker 1: that can't be completely dispelled, but roach really stresses the

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Speaker 1: idea that it might be more than that, this idea

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Speaker 1: that it would be like a you know, in a

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Speaker 1: very science fiction e or horror terms, like a portal

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Speaker 1: into another world another you know, goes are and all that,

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Speaker 1: you know, just crazy monster gods, window into hell, all

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Speaker 1: sorts of stuff like that. You know, the imagination just

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Speaker 1: runs wild. And so the Vatican was a little maybe

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't do this, and then they and they all

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Speaker 1: so tried to get him to convert to Catholicism. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that part. So he went home and got

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Speaker 1: a job with the FDA. So that was kind of

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Speaker 1: the this are the modern day folks who have been

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Speaker 1: interested in slowing, but also the acing Egyptians. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this has been a question that's been eating at us

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Speaker 1: for centuries. Yeah, the thousands of years. Um, you've you've

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Speaker 1: been to the museums, you've seen hieroglyphics, right, Um, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a one portion in the Egyptian Book

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Speaker 1: of the Dead that shows the eydis headed thought and

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Speaker 1: he's weighing like the human heart, human soul, you know,

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Speaker 1: everything that we are against a feather, and that's how

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Speaker 1: how he judges whether one is fit to hend of

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Speaker 1: the afterlife. So, if you want to know more about

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Speaker 1: anything from ghosts to quantum suicide to reincarnation, skip on

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Speaker 1: over to how stuff works dot com for moral this

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Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Because at how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Want more how stuff works, check out our

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Speaker 1: blogs on the house stuff works dot com home page