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Speaker 1: My Interview with Amanda Knox originally aired on February sixth

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Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen. It's sort of almost like the anchor

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Speaker 1: episode of the second season. Now Amanda is engaged to

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Speaker 1: be married and I couldn't be happier. They're just an

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Speaker 1: amazing couple, she and Chris Robinson. And she's now the

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Speaker 1: host of the Scarlet Letter Reports on Broadly Weise, in

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Speaker 1: which she sits down with famous women to discuss the

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Speaker 1: deeply personal journey of being sexualized, scrutinized, and demonized by

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Speaker 1: the media, and how they've rebuilt their lives after their

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Speaker 1: most personal details have been made public thereby the name

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Speaker 1: of Scarlet Letter Reports. Amanda is also the host of

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Speaker 1: The Truth About True Crime, a Sundance AMC podcast series.

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Speaker 1: Amanda's like my little sister, and I'm so happy for

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Speaker 1: all the great things that are happening for her. Please

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Speaker 1: listen through to the end because she drops some pearls

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Speaker 1: of wisdom at the end of this episode that really

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Speaker 1: will affect you as they affected me in a very

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Speaker 1: profound way.

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Speaker 2: I came from a beautiful neighborhood, had a beautiful life.

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Speaker 3: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first

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Speaker 3: day of my high school year. I was going to

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Speaker 3: be a senior at twenty two, I was set to

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Speaker 3: start college.

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Speaker 1: I woke up and my life was never the same again.

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Speaker 3: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw

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Speaker 3: freedom ever since after that. It's like roach mode, Tom,

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Speaker 3: once you get in and I can't.

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Speaker 1: Mouth this is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Today's guest is Amanda Knox.

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Speaker 4: I had like this year plan of studying language and

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Speaker 4: study poetry in mind.

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Speaker 1: Amanda Knox was wrongfully convicted of a crime that happened

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Speaker 1: in Italy in two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 3: Manda Knox verdict has just been read. Guilty here guilty.

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Speaker 5: Just hours ago, twenty two year old college student Amanda

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Speaker 5: Knox finally learned her fate. After eleven hours of deliberations.

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Speaker 5: The verdict was read by the presiding judge. Amanda and

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Speaker 5: Raphael A guilty of the murder of twenty one year

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Speaker 5: old Meredith Kircher. Her name is Amanda Knox, known for

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Speaker 5: the notorious murder of her British roommate Meritage.

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Speaker 1: She served four years in prison and went through numerous trials.

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Speaker 4: And I thought for months, months of imprisonment that it

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Speaker 4: was just a big misunderstanding and everything would get worked

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Speaker 4: out because the evidence would come back and it would

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Speaker 4: prove that.

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Speaker 3: I was innocent.

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Speaker 1: Before she was fully exonerated with DNA evidence in twenty fifteen, Amanda,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back in time as we do on

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Speaker 1: the show. What possessed you to become an exchange student?

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Speaker 1: Like it's sort of a it's a brave thing as

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Speaker 1: a young woman, oh Man.

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Speaker 4: For me, that it wasn't that brave because my family

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Speaker 4: came from Germany, and so I was always aware that

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Speaker 4: there were other worlds out there where other people were

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Speaker 4: living lives with other cultures and other languages, and I

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Speaker 4: was familiar with that. I had a knack for languages,

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Speaker 4: so I was also aware of that. In school, I

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Speaker 4: was interested in what other people were doing outside of

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Speaker 4: my little sphere of knowledge. And I mean I spent

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Speaker 4: two weeks when I was fourteen in Japan because I

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Speaker 4: studied Japanese in high school. I went with my family

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Speaker 4: to Germany when I was fourteen as well, So it

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Speaker 4: wasn't my first time outside of the country, and it

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Speaker 4: definitely wasn't unusual for me, Like my family had been

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Speaker 4: talking about a foreign exchange per since I was in

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Speaker 4: high school, Like my oma really wanted me to do

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Speaker 4: some high school in Germany.

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Speaker 6: Well, you did like an access tour at the age

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Speaker 6: of fourteen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, now that I'm meant think about it, Yeah, it's.

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Speaker 6: A coincidence, but it is funny looking back on it.

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Speaker 1: So you were somebody who was a world traveler at

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Speaker 1: a very young age, and so yes, and that makes sense.

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Speaker 6: And how did you settle on Italy?

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Speaker 4: Well, I was studying Italian and I was studying German,

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Speaker 4: both of them.

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Speaker 3: In college.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to be a linguist, a translator, an interpreter,

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Speaker 4: whatever I could be that had to do with languages,

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Speaker 4: because I couldn't explain a creative writing degree to my dad.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't justify it, but I could justify being a

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Speaker 4: translator and a linguist. And I liked Italian because I

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Speaker 4: studied Latin in middle school and it was just weird enough,

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Speaker 4: it was poetic, and in the meantime there was a

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Speaker 4: poetry program going on. There's this exchange with the University

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Speaker 4: of Washington where I was studying with poetry and I

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Speaker 4: that was located in Rome, and so I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is this brilliant opportunity. I'll go study Italian in

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Speaker 4: Perusia for nine months and then spend the summer in

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Speaker 4: Rome studying poetry.

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Speaker 3: And that was the plan.

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Speaker 4: I had, like this year plan of studying language and

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Speaker 4: studying poetry in mind.

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Speaker 1: How long were you there before everything started to unravel?

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Speaker 1: How long at the time of the just over a month, right, so,

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Speaker 1: and things were really looking up, right, you had just

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Speaker 1: fallen in well, I don't know if you could call

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Speaker 1: it love or poppy love or whatever it was, but

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Speaker 1: you had a romance going on.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was in classes.

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Speaker 4: I was in this city full of young people who

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Speaker 4: were from all over the world. I made a friend

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Speaker 4: there who was from kazakhs Dan and I had never

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Speaker 4: encountered a person from kazakhs Dan before. And she would

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Speaker 4: come over after class and we would play guitar together.

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Speaker 4: So that was just really cool. Or I went to

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Speaker 4: this one dinner with other people who were in my class,

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Speaker 4: and there was this chef from Japan who was studying

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Speaker 4: Italian cooking. There in Rome and PERUZI was kind of

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Speaker 4: traveling around learning how to cook, and he made a

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Speaker 4: big dinner and I helped make taram Sue. It was

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Speaker 4: just it was really cool that to be around so

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Speaker 4: many curious young people, and to be living with curious

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Speaker 4: young people. Meredith was one of those. She wasn't in

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Speaker 4: the same school.

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Speaker 6: That I was.

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Speaker 4: She was studying at the University of Perusia, and I

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Speaker 4: was studying at the University of Prestranierti, so the university

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Speaker 4: for foreigners, because my Italian wasn't good enough yet to

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Speaker 4: actually go to the regular university.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that was just the way you said that words

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Speaker 1: or transported me from Yeah right, yeah, let's how did

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Speaker 1: you end up? You and Meredith end up finding each

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Speaker 1: other in order to cohabitate.

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Speaker 3: Well, both of us found separately the house that we ended.

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Speaker 6: Up living in, so just an ad in the paper.

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Speaker 3: Not even in the paper.

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Speaker 4: I was wandering around by the university to Perstagnietti, and

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Speaker 4: there was a woman, a young woman there. I guess

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Speaker 4: she was younger than I am now crazy. She seemed

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Speaker 4: so old and mature when I was twenty, and she

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Speaker 4: was putting up a notice like one of those you rip.

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Speaker 3: The bottom off for a phone number.

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Speaker 4: And she said that she was and she could speak English,

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Speaker 4: and she said that she was advertising for this house

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Speaker 4: that was literally right down the street from the university

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Speaker 4: that I was going to go to. And I said, oh,

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Speaker 4: my gosh, can I come see it. I was there

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Speaker 4: with my sister to come visit the city really quickly

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Speaker 4: before I actually moved there. So I visited the house

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Speaker 4: before Meredith had ever arrived in Perushia, and already made

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Speaker 4: like a pact with Philomena and Laura, who were the

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Speaker 4: two Italian young women who were living there, to move

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Speaker 4: in as soon as I came back. And then by

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Speaker 4: the time I moved back to the house, Meredith had

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Speaker 4: already moved in. She had also found a notice somehow

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Speaker 4: the same same.

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Speaker 1: Way, seriously old school, like the little piece of paper

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Speaker 1: ripping off the thing like that.

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Speaker 6: You didn't find it on Craigslist exactly.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, I wouldn't even know what that looked

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Speaker 4: like in Perusia.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you end up living with these three other

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Speaker 1: young women and things are looking great, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what a life you have ahead of you and what

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Speaker 1: a place to be.

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Speaker 3: Oh definitely, I was like.

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Speaker 4: The one thing I can say that disappointed me was

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Speaker 4: I was expecting the work, the school work, to be

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Speaker 4: a little bit more rigorous than it was. It was

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Speaker 4: very relaxed, easy compared to what I was used to,

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Speaker 4: and I had expected I was going to be learning

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Speaker 4: the language more quickly.

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Speaker 1: I'm expecting that enrollment's going to go up after your

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Speaker 1: description among some slackers in the United States.

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Speaker 6: But that's beside the plate. So fast forward and you are.

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Speaker 1: Now you meet this young man and you start this

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Speaker 1: little romance. Yes, it's so charming how it's depicted in

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Speaker 1: the movie.

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Speaker 3: He's so charming. He is. He is.

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Speaker 4: He's like a charming in a boyish way. He's he's

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Speaker 4: not intimidating in any ways. He's very sweet and considerate,

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Speaker 4: but also kind of just like a puppy, just you know.

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Speaker 3: Just bumbling along.

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Speaker 4: And it's not like we ever had any deep conversations.

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Speaker 4: But then again, we also didn't really speak each other's

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Speaker 4: language very well.

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Speaker 3: So it was very It was very sweet.

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Speaker 4: It was like holding hands and walking along and him

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Speaker 4: being like, oh, Italian ladies have perfume. You should have perfume,

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Speaker 4: and oh, let me show you this cool market that

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Speaker 4: I've I've discovered here in Tody and you know, stuff

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Speaker 4: like that. It was really it was just like so

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Speaker 4: stereotypical of like the kind kind of romance that you

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Speaker 4: find yourself in when you're really young and you're in

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Speaker 4: another country and you come across this really cool, nice,

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Speaker 4: sweet different person that who's coming from a completely different

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Speaker 4: culture than you.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a high school relationship in college. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I got it, but really really cute. So then things

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Speaker 1: go completely haywire. And that's one of the things that

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Speaker 1: was I found so powerful in the movie is that

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Speaker 1: there's this juxtaposition right of like you're going along, you're

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Speaker 1: just having this sweet, wonderful, new, foreign, beautiful experience, and

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Speaker 1: then one day you show up, well you showed up

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Speaker 1: at your your home, and things got a little weird.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so it sort of unravels like a horror

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Speaker 1: movie actually, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in the sense that, like in the horror movie,

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Speaker 4: you don't realize what's going on as you're walking through it,

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Speaker 4: even as like the little things add up ominously, right,

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Speaker 4: Like that was my experience being plunked into a crime scene. Basically,

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Speaker 4: I had spent the night over at Raphael's like I

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Speaker 4: was doing a lot that one week that we were together,

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Speaker 4: and I came home in the morning and to take

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Speaker 4: a shower. And I came home and the front door

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Speaker 4: was wide open, which was odd because to even close

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Speaker 4: the door you had to lock it. And that was

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Speaker 4: the habit that Meredith, Laura, and Phila Maina and I

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Speaker 4: were in. We we opened the door with our key

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Speaker 4: and when we closed it, we locked it to keep

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Speaker 4: the door closed because otherwise it would just kind of open.

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Speaker 3: So the door was wide open and nobody was around.

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Speaker 3: I didn't see anyone. I kind of peeked.

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Speaker 4: I went inside and I called out, and I go

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Speaker 4: in to take a shower. And when I go in,

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Speaker 4: I call out, like Laura, Philha Mana, Meredith, anyone home?

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Speaker 3: And no one was home.

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Speaker 4: And I thought that was odd, but nothing seemed wrong,

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Speaker 4: Like the main room that I was walking into was

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Speaker 4: perfectly normal. Philamna's bedroom door was closed. I went into

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Speaker 4: my bedroom and undressed, went to the shower, and that's

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Speaker 4: when I noticed spots of blood in the bathroom. But

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Speaker 4: they weren't a lot. It was just eerie enough to

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Speaker 4: be like that's weird. On top of the door being opened.

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Speaker 4: But what was going on in my mind was, Oh,

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Speaker 4: maybe someone like cut themselves and then like ran out

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Speaker 4: to go get a bandage, or maybe someone I mean,

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Speaker 4: it could also have been in my like it could

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Speaker 4: also have been like, you know, when you brush your

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Speaker 4: teeth and if you haven't floss in a while, you'll

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Speaker 4: like bleed from your mouth when you're like, you know,

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Speaker 4: it wasn't a lot. It wasn't like so much that

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Speaker 4: I thought something was.

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Speaker 6: It was in the sink, though it was in the sink, right,

239
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Speaker 6: so it could have been anything.

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Speaker 4: It could have been anything, And I didn't immediately jump

241
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Speaker 4: to the conclusion that somebody had been devastatingly hurt or

242
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Speaker 4: something bad had happened.

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Speaker 3: I just thought it was weird.

244
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Speaker 4: And so I took my shower, and I stepped out

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Speaker 4: of the shower and onto the bath mat, and I

246
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Speaker 4: noticed that there was a larger splotch of blood on

247
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Speaker 4: the bath mat, and I thought, Okay, that's more suspicious,

248
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Speaker 4: but I still didn't know what to make of it.

249
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Speaker 4: I went into my room, I got dressed. I went

250
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Speaker 4: and blue dry my hair in the other bathroom that

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Speaker 4: we had, because that's where the hair dryer was, and

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Speaker 4: when I was in there, I noticed that the toilet.

253
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Speaker 3: Hadn't been flushed. There was feces in the toilet.

254
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Speaker 4: And that, on top of everything else, just struck me

255
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Speaker 4: like something like I got the creepy feeling that someone

256
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Speaker 4: is that was in the house with me who shouldn't

257
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 4: be there, because Laura and Philamena were really were clean

258
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,719
Speaker 4: freaks and they wouldn't forget to flush the toilet, and

259
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Speaker 4: like that on top of everything else, Like maybe even

260
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Speaker 4: if it was just that and everything else was normal,

261
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 4: the door was closed, I wouldn't have thought creepy feeling,

262
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,480
Speaker 4: but that, on top of everything else, gave me a

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Speaker 4: creepy feeling, And so I immediately booked it back to Raphael's.

264
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Speaker 3: And I wasn't sure.

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Speaker 4: What to tell him, like that some weird things were

266
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Speaker 4: at my house, but what could he say? But I

267
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 4: ended up talking to him and he said, oh, you

268
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 4: should call your roommates and see what's going on. Maybe

269
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Speaker 4: something happened with them. And I called Laura and she

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00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 4: was I don't remember if she picked up or not,

271
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Speaker 4: but she was not even in the city. She was

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Speaker 4: away in Rome. Philamina picked up and she had been

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Speaker 4: at her boyfriend's and Meredith did not pick up her phone,

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Speaker 4: just rang and rang, and I tried both of her

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00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 4: phone numbers. She had an Italian phone number and a

276
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 4: British phone number, and it didn't answer. So I told

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Speaker 4: like mayan, Raphael's plan had been to just go, you know,

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Speaker 4: away for the weekend, but I wanted him to come

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Speaker 4: take a look at what was going on in my

280
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Speaker 4: house with me because I needed to figure out what

281
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,360
Speaker 4: was going on. Philamina said she was going to come home.

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Speaker 4: We were all going to take a look at it,

283
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 4: see what was going on. She thought that maybe there

284
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 4: had been a break in, and so I went considering

285
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 4: that the door was open, right, And so I went

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00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,800
Speaker 4: back with Raphael and we took a more scrutinous look

287
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 4: at the house. We opened up Philamina's bedroom and Philamena's

288
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 4: bedroom was the one that had been broken into.

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Speaker 3: There was her.

290
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Speaker 4: Window was broken, There was glass all over the floor,

291
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 4: and there was you know, it was it was a

292
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 4: bit of a mess, like there was a jumble of clothing.

293
00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 4: I didn't see if there was anything like I looked

294
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 4: to see if there was anything stolen of value, because

295
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 4: if it was a break in, you'd think that there'd

296
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 4: be something stolen, but her camera was there, her computer

297
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 4: was there, like our stereo was still in the house,

298
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Speaker 4: the TV was still in the house.

299
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,480
Speaker 3: I went to my bedroom, my computer was there, and.

300
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 4: So I thought, what the heck happened, like, what did

301
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 4: this person steal if they broke in? And then by

302
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 4: that time, you know, Raphael and I sort of moved

303
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 4: around the house some more noticed that Laura's room was

304
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:38,760
Speaker 4: totally fine, untouched, pristine, and Meredith's room was locked, which

305
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 4: was unusual because the only time that I had ever

306
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 4: encountered her door being locked was either she was out

307
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 4: of town or she had just gotten out of the

308
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 4: shower and like closed the door and locked it before

309
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:58,760
Speaker 4: she got changed and then came out again. And I

310
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 4: asked Rafael to try to break it down because I

311
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,479
Speaker 4: knocked on the door and Meredith didn't answer. I knocked

312
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 4: louder and Meredith didn't answer, and the fact that she

313
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Speaker 4: wasn't answering her phone, like, I was worried maybe something happened.

314
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Speaker 4: So I asked Raphael to try to break down this door,

315
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Speaker 4: and he kicked at it, and he kicked at it,

316
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 4: but he couldn't kick it down. So we called the cops.

317
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,679
Speaker 4: In the meantime, phil A Mana came home. She was

318
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Speaker 4: freaking out hysterically. An Italian police showed up with this

319
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 4: this phone that belonged to Meredith and they said that

320
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,679
Speaker 4: they had found this phone in a garden that was

321
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,720
Speaker 4: a little bit like down the road. And yeah, so

322
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,680
Speaker 4: her phone is in the middle of some yard.

323
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,000
Speaker 3: Down the road. We can't find her. Her door is locked, there's.

324
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,800
Speaker 4: Like crazy things going on in the house. And so

325
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 4: finally phil Amna says to the cops, like kicked down

326
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 4: their door. And Philamine is there with her boyfriend and

327
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 4: their two friends because they were off doing things together,

328
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 4: and so they all came there and the police said, well,

329
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 4: we don't have the authority to kick indoors, like we're

330
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 4: only you know, we're not criminal. People were just we're

331
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 4: just here to like for these phone issues. They weren't

332
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 4: even like criminal investigator cops, right, They were just regular

333
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 4: Joshmo on the block cops who were like trying to

334
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 4: figure out whose lost phone this was.

335
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 6: Why were they even looking for it, That's the strange

336
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 6: part of this.

337
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,399
Speaker 3: Why were they looking for her phone? Because it was ringing.

338
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,479
Speaker 4: I had been calling it and it was ringing and

339
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,359
Speaker 4: the person whose yard it was found in heard the

340
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 4: ringing and discovered the like, found the phone in the yard,

341
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 4: and then called the cops saying, Hey, there's this phone

342
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,199
Speaker 4: in my yard. Can you find out who this belongs to?

343
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 1: So it's it's pretty weird though, that they show up

344
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 1: with the phone and then they don't try or okay.

345
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,439
Speaker 4: So now so well, and indeed, like what's interesting is

346
00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 4: they showed up. And I thought they had showed up

347
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,880
Speaker 4: because me and Raphael had called them and was said like, hey,

348
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 4: there's this break in in our house. But they apparently yeah,

349
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 4: but these cops weren't coming for that.

350
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,639
Speaker 3: They had no idea what we were talking about.

351
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,239
Speaker 4: The reason they came was because of the phone, and

352
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,679
Speaker 4: they knew that the phone was connected to the house

353
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 4: because it was Meredith's phone and Meredith was convoluted. Meredith

354
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 4: was using a SIM card that belonged to Philimena, and

355
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 4: Philimena's name.

356
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 3: Was registered with the house, so.

357
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 4: They had discovered the SIM card and traced it back

358
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 4: to the house. So they showed up for entirely different reasons.

359
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 4: And I had assumed they showed up because of a

360
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 4: break in. So these two just lay cops show up

361
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 4: with this phone, and I'm assuming that they're there because

362
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 4: of the break in, but in fact they are not.

363
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,119
Speaker 4: So they say, well, we don't have the authority to

364
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,880
Speaker 4: kick down this door. And Philamnasa's bullshit kick down this door.

365
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 4: So she and her friends kicked down this door with

366
00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:01,320
Speaker 4: the cops. That's Meredith's bedroom door, and I mean Philamina

367
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,920
Speaker 4: screamed and the police yelled out out out everyone get

368
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 4: out of the house, and there was this big just

369
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 4: shuffle and everyone, like I had no idea what was

370
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 4: going on. I was pushed out of the house bedroom. No, no,

371
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 4: I was you just know that pandemonium breaking and everyone's

372
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 4: screaming in Italian, and so I'm trying to like keep

373
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 4: track of everything, and I'm asking Raphael to like tell

374
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,760
Speaker 4: me what everyone's saying, because you know, it's one thing

375
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 4: to have someone speak to you slowly and calmly in

376
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 4: Italian and another one to have them just like screaming

377
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 4: hysterically out loud at everyone's talking over each other. And

378
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,439
Speaker 4: so Raphael was like slowly sort of just trying to

379
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 4: translate for me what was going on.

380
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 3: I was pushed out of the.

381
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 4: House and and by then then some more cops arrived.

382
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 4: I think the the the phone police guys called in

383
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,880
Speaker 4: for backup. And I mean, I don't even know who

384
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 4: who all these people were that were showing up to

385
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,960
Speaker 4: my house. All I knew was that suddenly I didn't

386
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 4: have a house anymore. I wasn't allowed to go inside,

387
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 4: and I was just standing outside thinking what did they

388
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 4: see in Meredith's room?

389
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 3: Like did they see her? Did they see someone else?

390
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 4: Like, and you know, you can think, Okay, maybe maybe

391
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 4: I should have known it that it was obviously going

392
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 4: to be Meredith in there, but like by the way

393
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 4: that Philamina was screaming, like she was just saying a foot,

394
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 4: a foot, a foot in Pierre and Pierre and Pierre,

395
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 4: and I thought that maybe there was like a severed

396
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 4: foot in there. Like I had no idea what was

397
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 4: going on. And then like I kept overhearing little spits

398
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 4: and pieces, something that had to do with the wardrobe,

399
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 4: something that had to do with the blanket of her bed.

400
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 4: And eventually what I pieced and what Raphael was able

401
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 4: to really piece together for me was that Philamena, her boyfriend,

402
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 4: and her friends and this one cop had kicked down

403
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 4: the door and seen the crime scene, which was Meredith's

404
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 4: body was lying on the ground covered in a blanket

405
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 4: and her foot was sticking out from beneath the blanket.

406
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there was blood everywhere.

407
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 4: I mean there was blood on the walls, there was

408
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 4: blood all over the floor, there was blood on the wardrobe.

409
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 4: So there was and like it wasn't just like there

410
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 4: was like splatters of blood and there was like fingerprints

411
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 4: in blood. It was just this terrible, horrific crime scene

412
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 4: that showed absolutely struggle and and uh so I'm really

413
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,400
Speaker 4: grateful that I never had to see that in person.

414
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 4: The first time I ever did see that was pictures

415
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 4: that my lawyer showed me to prepare me for court

416
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 4: when we were going to have to sit there and

417
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 4: go through all the pictures of the crime scene and

418
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 4: the pictures of the autopsy.

419
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: Right, and let's and let's let's go to that, but

420
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: make a stop on the way at the time of

421
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: the arrest, because it's odd. I mean, you there were

422
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: other people who could have been targeted. There were some

423
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: very obvious signs, right, there was a known burglar in

424
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: the neighborhood.

425
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 6: Had the cops.

426
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: Been maybe let's let's give them the benefit of the

427
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: doubt and say, had they've been more experienced, But let's

428
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: face it, it's really a question of competency.

429
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 3: They're also trigger happy.

430
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 4: I think there was a lot of like automatically there

431
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 4: were so okay, So what did they have in front

432
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 4: of them? When let's let's put ourselves in the shoes

433
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 4: of the police officers as they come to this place.

434
00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 4: They have.

435
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 3: They have.

436
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 4: A hysterical roommate, a roommate who doesn't really understand what's

437
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 4: going on and is talking to her boyfriend all the

438
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: time in English. They have a body out of nowhere.

439
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 4: They have some phones that were found a little bit away.

440
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 4: It's a gruesome crime scene. It looks like a break in,

441
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 4: and and what they had, you know, in the in

442
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 4: the hours following was just all of us standing around

443
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 4: outside waiting to hear what happened, and then bringing us

444
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 4: to the police office to ask us and question us. Basically,

445
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: what they had to go on was there's this horrible thing,

446
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 4: and all we have are people to look at.

447
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: Because they sure they weren't analyzing the crime scene.

448
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 4: They had you know, people in their their suits going

449
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 4: in and out checking out everything. But like at that

450
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 4: point they were playing the detail actives in terms of like, Okay,

451
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 4: let's try to solve this in forty eight hours type

452
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 4: of thing where you just study the characters of the

453
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 4: people who are around you, and something about me striked

454
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 4: them as odd. They thought that my emotions didn't match

455
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 4: up to what they should have been. Either I cried

456
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 4: too much or I cried too little. I said the

457
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 4: wrong thing, I was doing the wrong thing. They thought

458
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 4: that I was weird. I was being you know, cuddled

459
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 4: by my boyfriend who was trying to comfort me. All

460
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 4: of it they just felt was inappropriate, and that made

461
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 4: me suspicious. We're better equipped to make, you know, decisions

462
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 4: about guilt and innocence, but we are also just flawed

463
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 4: human beings who should remember that when we're drawing conclusions

464
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 4: about people, and we shouldn't rely so heavily on initial

465
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 4: impressions because those don't actually tell us any relevant information.

466
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: So in the meantime they come along and eventually and

467
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't take that long, right, And we see this

468
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: again and again where you have a small community, a

469
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: very high profile crime, and a lot of pressure on

470
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: the police to solve it, and then in your case,

471
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: there was the added pressure of the press gets a

472
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: hold of this and things get really crazy. Yeah, in

473
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 1: a way that the world hadn't seen.

474
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 3: For the press in both America and Italy, it wasn't

475
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 3: just the story of the year, it was the story

476
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: of the century.

477
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: And then they have to suddenly like rise to the occasion,

478
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 4: which is this one that they're not experienced and they're

479
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 4: not equipped to do. You know, it was kind of

480
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 4: like when you look back at them going through the

481
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 4: crime scene and like looking through everything, it looks a

482
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 4: little bit like kids who are playing pretend. They're pretending

483
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: to be forensic experts, moving through a space and like

484
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 4: gathering evidence, but you know, trying to like swi a

485
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 4: splotch of blood, but like swabbing the whole sink to

486
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 4: get that splotch of blood, or like passing around evidence

487
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 4: like you know, candy. It's like they were.

488
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 3: Kids pretending to be doing their job. And I mean,

489
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 3: I know that one of.

490
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 4: The issues with the criminal justice system is like of

491
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 4: resources and lack of training, and it would be nice

492
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 4: if when faced with those situations, when you know that

493
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 4: you can't rise to the occasion in the way that

494
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: you would, you need to you at the very least

495
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 4: admit it or ask for help do something. In this case,

496
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 4: the Prusia police were wanting to prove themselves to the

497
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: world because suddenly the world was looking at them, and

498
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 4: they were very proud, and they were Prusia being a

499
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: city that supported itself on tourism, they couldn't afford to

500
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 4: have some foreign exchange student be murdered without Perusia being

501
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 4: able to rise to the occasion and answer the call

502
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 4: of duty. And they just weren't able to do that.

503
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 4: They were faking it, trying to make it, and they

504
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 4: couldn't make it.

505
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: You know, an improper forensics is sadly tragically common. It's

506
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: the second leading cause of wrongful convictions in the United States.

507
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: So I don't want to make this sound like this

508
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: was an Italian problem. This is a worldwide problem. And

509
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: part of it is the training. As you just said,

510
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: I mean, we need better standards for training our forensic

511
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: analysts and experts, and anyone who saw it making a.

512
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 6: Murderer saw that as well.

513
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really we want to believe that these

514
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: people are scientists with fantastic backgrounds, and we'd like to

515
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: believe that they're perfect.

516
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: And they have principles and standards.

517
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 6: That would be good too.

518
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: And there are a lot of very good forensic scientists

519
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: out there, but the bad ones are capable of inflicting

520
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: incredible amounts of damage. We've seen some who are really

521
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: bad actors who do it over and over again until

522
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: they're eventually caught, and then all these cases have to

523
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: be unraveled the taxpayer expense, and of course the human

524
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 1: tragedy is that so many people get wrongfully convicted as

525
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: a result. You were one of them, although over there,

526
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: but I do want to highlight the fact that it

527
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: happens in America with alarming frequency. So you get arrested

528
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: and thrust into this world you have no understanding of

529
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: right in so many ways, including the language barrier and

530
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: everything else. And now what happens, like what's going through

531
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: your mind? And how did it get to trial?

532
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 4: And then besides the whole issue of the course of

533
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: interrogation that authors a false confession, speeding past that, because

534
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 4: I've talked about that often, finding myself in a prison

535
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 4: environment was incredibly surreal and confusing. I had been given

536
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 4: the impression initially that I was there for my own protection,

537
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 4: so they, the police told me that I was going

538
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 4: to the prison because that was the safe place for me.

539
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 4: I thought I was a witness to the case, and

540
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 4: I had no idea what was happening to me. I

541
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 4: didn't realize that I had been accused of her murder,

542
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: you know, And it sounds so dumb, Like it sounds dumb,

543
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: like I had handcuffs on me and they put me

544
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 4: in prison. How could I not realize what was going on?

545
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: But like, the idea that.

546
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 4: I would be accused of a murder I didn't commit

547
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 4: was so foreign to me that I was making every

548
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: excuse in my mind to explain what was happening to

549
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: me that wasn't exactly what was happening to me, which

550
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 4: was the most absurd thing that I could possibly imagine, Like,

551
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 4: it wasn't it wasn't in my radar to be wrongfully

552
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 4: convicted of something that I didn't do, especially something so

553
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 4: brutal and terrible as the murder of my roommate Like this,

554
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 4: I was blaming myself for like seeming confusing to people.

555
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 4: I was under the impression that I was a witness,

556
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 4: and then when it was finally brought to my attention

557
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: that I was actually accused of murder.

558
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: I thought that there was this big mistake.

559
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 4: I asked, I asked to be interrogated again, because I

560
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 4: was like, no, you misunderstood me.

561
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 3: It was my fault. I'm sorry.

562
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 4: Like I was so young and naive and idealistic and

563
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: idealistic and manipulable, like I thought that I was on

564
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 4: the side of the police and there was just this

565
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 4: big misunderstanding. And I thought, for months, months of imprisonment,

566
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 4: that it was just a big misunderstanding and everything would

567
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 4: get worked out because the evidence would come back and

568
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 4: it would prove that I was innocent. And like, I

569
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: spent eight months like that, and I spent eight months

570
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 4: hoping I was just I was going to.

571
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: Go home, and and that didn't happen, and it took them.

572
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 4: Eight months to formally charge me, and with you know,

573
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 4: so I the way that they do it in Italy is

574
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 4: they can arrest you and then they can continue their

575
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 4: investigation to actually come up with charges against you and

576
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 4: without bail.

577
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: And I'm held without bail.

578
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 4: Yes, So I was in prison for eight months without

579
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 4: formal charges and then finally those were laid down on me.

580
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: And of course, I what's crazy is that, you know,

581
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 3: as everything kept getting worse and worse and worse.

582
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 4: I kept hoping, like my hopes kept rising, that things

583
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 4: would finally turn out in the end, because it couldn't

584
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: keep getting this bad. It couldn't like it was just impossible.

585
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 4: It didn't make sense why this would be happening to me.

586
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 4: And I kept thinking that it's it's gonna figure itself

587
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 4: out in the end, even if it's not figuring itself

588
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 4: out now, even if it's taking months and the police

589
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 4: just don't get it, Like a jury of my reasonable

590
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 4: peers are going to see how ridiculous this is and

591
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 4: they're going to put a stop to it. And the

592
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 4: closer we get to my conviction, the more I thought

593
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 4: I was going to go home. And you know, it took.

594
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 4: I was in prison for two years prior to my conviction,

595
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 4: and then I was convicted, and that changed everything.

596
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 3: That was when.

597
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: I I finally had to face my reality with full

598
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 4: awareness of what had happened and what was going to

599
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 4: happen to me, and I was My mom didn't like

600
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 4: the way that I started writing letters. She thought that

601
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 4: I was depressed, and you know, it.

602
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: Could be that is true.

603
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 4: It is true that after a while, especially post my conviction,

604
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: the world was just.

605
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 3: Sad because you know that life isn't fair.

606
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 4: Everyone tells you that, but you never think that you're

607
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: going to be that person with that unfair story, that

608
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 4: you're the you're that one person. And you know, I'm

609
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 4: not the only person in history who's ever had this

610
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 4: happen to them, Like there have been horrible things throughout

611
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 4: history that human beings have done to one another, and

612
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 4: you just you never think that you're going to be

613
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 4: that witch who's going to be burned or you know.

614
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 5: The.

615
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 6: Or sure.

616
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I think everybody can relate to that, because

617
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, and people have varying degrees. Everyone's had some

618
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: experience where they were like, wait, why me, but yours

619
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: just happens to be very extreme. And then they had

620
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: a number of inconvenient issues, right, I mean, they forget

621
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: for a second the fact that they were overlooking the

622
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: obvious suspect. Who was this guy who who they knew

623
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: had been burglarizing and this was a burglary homes in

624
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: the neighborhood.

625
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 6: Ultimately, of course, he was convicted, and right.

626
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 4: Well, that's the frustrating thing about my case, and that

627
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 4: I think is a repetition of things that happened in

628
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions cases where a prosecution gets invested in a

629
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 4: theory and they're so invested in that theory that they're

630
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 4: willing to fudge, distort, and completely ignore truthful elements in

631
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 4: order to sustain that theory. So in my case, the

632
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 4: prosecutor was so invested and the police were so invested

633
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 4: in my guilt that they let off the person who

634
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 4: actually did it, whose blood, whose DNA was everywhere inside

635
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 4: merit It's body, inside her purse, all over the crime scene,

636
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 4: his fingerprints in her blood, all over the crime scene.

637
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 4: They let him off as not guilty of the murderer.

638
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 4: They have him guilty of raping her, and they didn't

639
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: find him. That's why he got a lower sentence, is

640
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 4: because it was more worth it to them to let him,

641
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 4: the actual murderer, off, you know, on a lesser charge,

642
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 4: so that they could sustain their theory of me. And

643
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 4: in addition to that, to sustain that theory, they had

644
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 4: to ignore. Like we were talking about forensic evidence and

645
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 4: how yes, in my case there was bad forensic evidence

646
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 4: because you know, there was contamination. That was the issue

647
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 4: with the bra clasp. There was this knife where like

648
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 4: they said, there was Meredith dianana it, but there wasn't

649
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 4: in the end. But even more than that, like that,

650
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 4: I understand that people are sort of fascinated by those

651
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: elements because you know, maybe they're you know, smoking gun elements.

652
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: But really, like the smoking gun element in this case

653
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 4: is one that the police completely ignored, which is whose

654
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 4: DNA was in the crime scene.

655
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 3: Merediths and Rudy Gadets, the actual killer. That's it.

656
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: It's impossible for a reasonable person, even if you don't

657
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: have a background in investigations or anything else, right to

658
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: rationalize the fact that your DNA wasn't there.

659
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 4: Well, they came up with all the excuses like, oh,

660
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 4: she was able to clean it up, which is laughable.

661
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 3: Which is laughable. It's impossible.

662
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 4: You can't just look around this room that we are

663
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 4: in right now and I'm like, okay, well your DNA's

664
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 4: right there, so I'm going to leave that and my

665
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 4: DNA's right there. Like DNA is invisible, it's you can't

666
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 4: identify like oh that you know, sweat stain is from

667
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 4: me versus this sweat stain is from you.

668
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 3: You can't do that. It is physically impossible also to.

669
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 4: Even like move around a crime scene without leaving traces

670
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 4: of yourself unless you're in a in one of those suits.

671
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 4: But even that, yeah, but even that, like, it's no guarantee.

672
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 4: You have to be very if you The reason why

673
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 4: forensic experts have to move around in a crime scene

674
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 4: in those suits is because it's so easy to contaminate

675
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 4: a crime scene, and the prosecution because they were so

676
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 4: invested in the idea of my guilt, they were so

677
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 4: invested in it that they just had to believe that

678
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 4: it was possible for me to have done this, to

679
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 4: have cleaned up all trace of me connecting me to

680
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 4: the crime.

681
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: Right, which would be even if you had endless amounts

682
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: of time resources, the most sophisticated equipment, which of course

683
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: and magic coggles, and you would still have to have. Also,

684
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: you'd have to be some combination of a fairy and

685
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 1: an alien in order to float in there, yes, avoid

686
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: leaving any traces, clean it up without leaving any traces

687
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: as well.

688
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 6: Right, So you would have had to.

689
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: Either commit the murder in a hazmat suit and have

690
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: and I've sort of been floating above, and or come

691
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: back with your team of experts from some laboratory who

692
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: would have been able to you know, mad you.

693
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 6: Know, scrubbed party.

694
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 4: And also without leaving traces of cleaning, because of course

695
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 4: you can't leave traces of having cleaned.

696
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: So where's the yeah, no, she did it by God

697
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: in there, like yeah.

698
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 4: I mean we can laugh about it right now, but

699
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 4: like that was legit, and like that happens all the time,

700
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 4: the kinds of ways that bad investigators contort their minds

701
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 4: in order to shape it around an idea instead of

702
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 4: allowing the context of the situation of relevant information to

703
00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 4: inform them that that is a devastating factor in wrongful convictions,

704
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 4: and it's one that's relevant in my case. It's one

705
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 4: that's relevant in most cases where you're just either going

706
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 4: out of your way to not find any other evidence

707
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 4: that's relevant to the case, or bury it or bury it,

708
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 4: or you're just doing incredible mental gymnastics to justify what you.

709
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: Want to justify instead of what you.

710
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: Can In this's project, research has shown that many forensics techniques,

711
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: such as hair microscopy, bitemark comparisons, firearm tool mark analysis,

712
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: and shuprint comparisons have not been subjected to sufficient scientific

713
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: evaluation and have resulted time and time again in tragic errors.

714
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: No on, your case has things in common with the

715
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: Center Part five case as well, right, another super high

716
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: profile case where the DNA evidence was available and was

717
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: hidden and lied about.

718
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 4: And it's all about story, right, Like it's all about

719
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 4: ay where the idea of well, I mean, you saw

720
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 4: the documentary, so you saw how Nick Pisa was all

721
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 4: like girl on girl crime a lot. Like people were

722
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 4: just eating up the idea of some fem fatale version

723
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 4: of me that was able to hypnotize two guys into

724
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 4: doing my bidding and then commit murder and then somehow

725
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 4: criminally mastermindedly get away with it.

726
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: So you were now this crazed sex killer, except for

727
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: you weren't gay, and you weren't a killer at all.

728
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 6: You weren't a violent person whatsoever.

729
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 4: Never had any criminal problems ever, never had any behavioral

730
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: problems ever. It was just an interesting story. And I

731
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 4: think that's what's most scary that I've learned about the

732
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 4: criminal justice system, at least right now, is that often enough,

733
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 4: what compels is not the facts, what compels is the story.

734
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 4: And if the defense's story is a story that we've

735
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 4: heard before, where there's a burglar who breaks in, takes

736
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 4: advantage of the person who is home, and then runs

737
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 4: away from the country. That, despite the fact that that's

738
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 4: what the evidence is pointing to, is not the story

739
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 4: that compels. It's not the story that sells, and it's

740
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,280
Speaker 4: not the story that ends up being stamped with everyone's approval.

741
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: And that is the scariest thing about the criminal justice system,

742
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 4: where it's treated in this like really morbid way like entertainment.

743
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 4: And what counts is what compels, what you know, stimulates

744
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 4: our most base instincts in relation to other people. Like

745
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 4: it's just it's so weird how we think there's this

746
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 4: like this upstanding institution that has so many you know,

747
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 4: safeguards against that kind of thing, against authorities taking advantage

748
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 4: of their position, and against you know, people being found

749
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 4: guilty for things where there's no evidence of that. Like

750
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 4: it still comes down to people getting riled up about

751
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: something and whether or not.

752
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 3: It's fake news. And if the fake news.

753
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 4: Is compelling enough and if you hear it enough, and

754
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 4: if it's if everyone's talking about it in this specific

755
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 4: way enough, then that becomes the truth and that ends

756
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 4: up defining my life unless I can somehow compel you otherwise,

757
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 4: then that's crazy.

758
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 3: I shouldn't have to compel anyone.

759
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 4: I'm just a regular person walking around in this world

760
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 4: and had this thing dropped on me. And the ability

761
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 4: for an authority to drop that kind of devastation on

762
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 4: your life should be justified, and so often it is.

763
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 4: And very good prosecutors won't go after someone unless they

764
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 4: have very good reason to. But other people have other intentions,

765
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 4: and they have other agendas, and they're proud and they're flawed,

766
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 4: and they don't want to admit it.

767
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 6: So back to you.

768
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: You end up in prison, case gets overturned on appeal,

769
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 1: you get reconvicted. I mean, this is but in the meanwhile,

770
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: you're just sort of languishing. It's probably a nice way

771
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,959
Speaker 1: to put it, in an Italian prison for a crime

772
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: you didn't commit. And I was so touched to hear

773
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:35,399
Speaker 1: you say how you maintain this idealistic notion that if

774
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: you just told the truth, eventually people would get it,

775
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: they would want to not persecute you if you just

776
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: told them the truth.

777
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 3: I mean, so here, I'm about to break your heart.

778
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 4: I held that belief, that idealistic belief up until my conviction,

779
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: and then I thought, oh wow, this is the type

780
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 4: of world. Oh yeah, okay, this is the type of

781
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 4: world where I can be innocent but still be convicted

782
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 4: and still have my life completely redefined by something I

783
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 4: didn't do, and that could be the rest of my life.

784
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 4: That could be my life. I could be that person.

785
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 4: And you know, I faced another two years in prison

786
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 4: with the prospect of being that person, of living the

787
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 4: rest of my life in prison. No matter how innocent

788
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 4: I said I was, that didn't mean that I was

789
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 4: ever going to say fine, I did it, Like that

790
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 4: was never going to come out of me, because like

791
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 4: that was absurd and offensive, and it was offensive to

792
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 4: Meredith's memory, and it was offensive to everything that every

793
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 4: principle that I had in myself. But I also recognized

794
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: that this world is one in which sometimes we humans

795
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 4: make mistakes in relation to each other, and I could

796
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 4: have been one of those who just got forgotten, and

797
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 4: I did not know if I was ever going to

798
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 4: get out of it. I had to wrap my mind

799
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 4: around the idea and come to peace with the idea

800
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 4: that I was just going to live my life in

801
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 4: prison for something that I didn't do. No matter what

802
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 4: I said, and you know, even after everything, even after

803
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 4: I was acquitted and I was freed, I thought, oh well, okay, wow,

804
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 4: I'm lucky. There are plenty of people who were in

805
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 4: my situation who never got out. And then I had

806
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 4: to come to peace with the idea that, okay, so

807
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 4: I am free and I do get to have my

808
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 4: life back. It's just, you know, I'm going to be

809
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 4: one of those people who everyone in the world is

810
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 4: going to think as a monster or suspect as a

811
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 4: monster for the rest of my life, and I'm just

812
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 4: going to have to come to peace with that. And

813
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 4: you know, like when the Twitter trolls just roll in

814
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 4: every day and like reaffirm that for you, I just

815
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 4: had to come to peace with that. And then you know,

816
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 4: the documentary comes out and suddenly people who just like

817
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 4: really quickly drew conclusions about me that suggested that I

818
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,240
Speaker 4: was guilty. As soon as they saw that and saw

819
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,080
Speaker 4: that that I'm a real person, for one thing, and

820
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 4: that the case was more complex than what they thought,

821
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 4: suddenly they started vocalizing that they were sorry. Like people

822
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 4: were saying sorry to me, I for we're like jumping

823
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 4: to conclusions about me. And I never expected that to happen,

824
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 4: Like I had come to peace with the idea that unless.

825
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 3: You met me, you probably hated me.

826
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 4: And as soon as I walk into a room, there's

827
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 4: a doppelganger version of myself that's preceded me, that you're

828
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 4: all judging prior to me even entering that room, and

829
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 4: I'm going to have to relate to that doppelganger verbishun

830
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 4: of myself before I'm ever going to be able to

831
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 4: interact with you as a person.

832
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: And I am continually finding.

833
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 4: Like I'm the type of person who doesn't believe something

834
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 4: unless I like, I see it and I can and

835
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 4: there's proof of it, And so I am finding proof.

836
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 4: I mean, I believe that human beings are good deep down,

837
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 4: and I think that we're smart deep down, and so

838
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 4: I feel like as soon as we come face to

839
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: face with each other, we were able to recognize each

840
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 4: other's humanity. What I am finding is with great joy,

841
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 4: is that some people don't even need to see me

842
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 4: face to face in order to realize that I'm a

843
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 4: human being.

844
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 3: And that means the world to me.

845
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 4: Because I had come to peace with the idea that

846
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 4: that wasn't going to be my reality, that was just

847
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 4: going to be my fate to be that girl that

848
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 4: people suspected forever and didn't really think of as a

849
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 4: person and judged not as a person.

850
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 3: So I don't know. I'm sorry.

851
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 4: I hope it doesn't like break your art or like

852
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 4: skew your understanding of what kind of person I am.

853
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 3: But I'm just practical.

854
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 4: It'd be nice if I could say, like, no, I

855
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: knew in the end that it was going to work out.

856
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: But the sad thing is you don't.

857
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 4: Anyone who's wrongfully convicted doesn't know if it's going to

858
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 4: work out for them, and it sucks, and it's sad,

859
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 4: and your world is sad, and that's just the reality

860
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 4: of it. And it takes people like you and people

861
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 4: like me and people like our listeners to care about

862
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 4: that situation enough to do something about it, because it's

863
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 4: not just going to work itself out.

864
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 3: It doesn't work itself out.

865
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 4: People undo their mistakes, and it requires people to do it.

866
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 6: And nobody wins.

867
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: A wrongful conviction occurs because there's no favor there to

868
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: the victim, or the victim's family, or to society, which

869
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: in many cases allows the well in almost all cases

870
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: allows the actual perpetrator to roam free and commit new atrocities,

871
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: and of course then there's the very human toll on

872
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: people like yourself. So I want to wrap up by

873
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: talking about Amanda.

874
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 4: Now, Now it's wonderful because I'm no longer being hunted

875
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 4: down by some big, you know, crazy legal authority that's

876
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 4: an entire country, like, I'm no longer having to deal

877
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 4: with that kind of pressure in my life, and I

878
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 4: can actually look forward as opposed to just sort of

879
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 4: like be really present and be constantly aware of like

880
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 4: what's coming at me. I can actually just like breathe,

881
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 4: look forward and kind of I put myself out there.

882
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 4: I'm writing a lot, I'm coming up with these creative

883
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 4: projects to try to.

884
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: To try to, you know, share my ideas with the world.

885
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 4: And I'm here talking to you, and I'm going out

886
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 4: of my way to vocalize my thoughts and experiences in

887
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 4: ways that I didn't feel like I was able to

888
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 4: before because I wasn't in a position of safety or ability.

889
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 4: Even I thought for the longest time that my life

890
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 4: was going to be one where I had to live

891
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 4: in the shadows and cower, and that was going to

892
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 4: be my life, and that's not what's happening to me now,

893
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 4: And I'm so grateful for that, because I hated the

894
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 4: idea that somehow I had to pay with my life

895
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 4: for this thing that I didn't do, for the mistakes

896
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 4: the prosecution make, for the terrible crime that Roudigade committed,

897
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,919
Speaker 4: Like somehow I had to pay with my life for that,

898
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 4: and like people told me all the time, like, oh,

899
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 4: you should just change your name so you don't have

900
00:50:57,920 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 4: to deal with it. And eventually, you know, ten year

901
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 4: years from now, you're not going to look the same,

902
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 4: so it's not going to be different. And it's like,

903
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 4: you know what, No, there's nothing wrong with being Amanda Knox.

904
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 4: Amanda Knox didn't do anything. I'm I'm a good person.

905
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 4: I'm just fine. And in fact, if you just gave

906
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 4: me the chance to be a person, you would see

907
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 4: that too.

908
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 3: So I didn't like.

909
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 4: The idea of like my myself being compromised somehow by

910
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 4: something that had nothing to do with me. And instead,

911
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 4: you know, I've I've now been able to like embrace

912
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 4: the fact that this happened to me and that it's

913
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 4: a part of me, but it's not, you know, the

914
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 4: thing that defines me.

915
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 3: The thing that defines me.

916
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 4: Is how I've reacted to it, and that feels wonderful

917
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 4: and like I'm I feel recognized in a way that

918
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 4: I never imagined that I was going to feel. And

919
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 4: it's so I'm so grateful, Like I'm so grateful that

920
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 4: people are like seeing me as a human being and

921
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 4: seeing what I went through and caring about it like

922
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 4: no one had to do that. No one had to

923
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 4: care about me, and they and they do and that

924
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 4: means the world to me, and I just I just

925
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 4: want other people to feel that.

926
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: You know, well, I can tell you that it's it's

927
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 1: quite extraordinary just being around you and soaking up the

928
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 1: sort of energy that you put out there because it's

929
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: so positive and it's so healing, and it's been, like

930
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: I said, a humbling experience for me to be able

931
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: to have you on the show now twice, and I

932
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: look forward to watching you continue to grow.

933
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 6: And heal and excel.

934
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: And you know, and I know we'll be seeing each

935
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: other again at various events, and we will both continue

936
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 1: to fight for justice because that's what we're here for.

937
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flum and

938
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: our guests, The Amazing, the one and only no Amanda.

939
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 6: Thanks for listening.

940
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week on Wrowful Conviction with Jason Plumb.

941
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 6: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

942
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 6: get your podcasts, it really helps.

943
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Nisnce Project and

944
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

945
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

946
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

947
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

948
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

949
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

950
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 1: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

951
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

952
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

953
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one.

954
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 4: Then the wor