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Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to

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Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few

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Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're

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Speaker 1: doing our part to keep writers safe. We're cleaning like

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Speaker 1: Noble before you've found has stunt of suns of stas,

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Speaker 1: no masks, no Metro need one. We have a few

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Speaker 1: extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep the

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Speaker 1: DC area moving. Find out more at well Matta dot

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Speaker 1: com slash doing our part. I did forget that I

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Speaker 1: had text messages from an old cell phone that we're

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Speaker 1: entirely exculpatory, which proved that everything I had said about

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Speaker 1: Critical being my source regarding the significance uh and the

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Speaker 1: October release date of the wiki laks material was accurate.

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Speaker 1: I believe he lied to the grand jury about that.

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Speaker 1: That's been reported, but he appears not to be being

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Speaker 1: prosecuted for perjury. But I forgot exculpat story information UH

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Speaker 1: and therefore I will okay. So it made sense to

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Speaker 1: me when I listened to it at the time. Roger

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Speaker 1: Stone on with Tucker Carlson on Friday night, hours after

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Speaker 1: he walks out of the courthouse, and then did another

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Speaker 1: interview yesterday, and I think he's stepped up to some

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Speaker 1: microphone today. Um, he seems to be really confident or

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Speaker 1: he's company, Uh, he's innocent. He's also I think, trying

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Speaker 1: to make the argument that other people are lying to

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Speaker 1: save themselves about him, right, which could be happening because

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Speaker 1: you've got a bunch of liars involved, right, I mean

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Speaker 1: people that have lied throughout their lives. Well, he has

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Speaker 1: a bunch of strategies I think to be out and proud,

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Speaker 1: but that is definitely one of them. Yeah, Matt zap

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Matt. Matt Zappatowski joins us. He's a national

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Speaker 1: security reporter covering the Justice Department for the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: How are you, sir? Hey, guys, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm great. Oh, it's our pleasure. So you know, it's

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Speaker 1: funny we've been talking about this very topic the last

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Speaker 1: couple of days. There's nothing illegal about pursuing a hotel

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Speaker 1: deal in Moscow, and there's nothing illegal in taking a

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Speaker 1: phone call from somebody who says, hey, I got dirt

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Speaker 1: on your opponents. And there are all sorts of, you know,

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Speaker 1: examples of folks being investigated, being prosecuted for lying about stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand why they would. So you're reporting on this,

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Speaker 1: what's what are you finding or what do you think this?

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Speaker 1: This was a great mystery to me. Even the day

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Speaker 1: that the Stone indictment dropped, I sort of read through

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Speaker 1: it and I think, why in the heck did this

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Speaker 1: guy lie about this and take such forceful steps to

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Speaker 1: sort of convince others to not cooperate in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And I think they're just theories you know, people have

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Speaker 1: now and why he might have done that. Certainly that

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Speaker 1: the underlying conduct here might not be illegal, it's politically damaging,

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Speaker 1: you know that President From's campaign, that senior level officials

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Speaker 1: would be interested in getting the fruits of a Russian

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Speaker 1: hacking effort, while itself might not be illegal, you know,

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Speaker 1: even reporters that at that time period we're trying to

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Speaker 1: see what Wiki leaks had and when they were going

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Speaker 1: to publish it. That's not illegal, But if you're running

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Speaker 1: for president is it is potentially damaging to your campaign

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Speaker 1: if people will know, hey, you're you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: secretly trying to suff this stuff out. Another possibility is,

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Speaker 1: of course, there's some cover up of something we don't

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Speaker 1: yet know you know, Mueller hasn't charged any kind of

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Speaker 1: brand grand conspiracy to you know, defraud the US, to

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Speaker 1: interfere with the election. He charged Russians, but not Americans

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Speaker 1: as part of that conspiracy. So is there some fact

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Speaker 1: that we still don't know? And then I think a

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Speaker 1: third possibility is these guys just have a sort of

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Speaker 1: a strange relationship with the truth. All of these people

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Speaker 1: seems to lie any reason and for no reason, and

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe they sort of just can't help themselves

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Speaker 1: as sort of the most innocuous explanation as I see it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that fits with Flynn. I still

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Speaker 1: don't understand why he lied about what he lied about,

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Speaker 1: but certainly with Manafort, Stone and Cohen, they're people that

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Speaker 1: have made their livings not telling people the truth and

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Speaker 1: you know, and keeping their side of the story private.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they may just lie out of habit. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That and Cohen, certainly, I've sort of bragged he was

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Speaker 1: proud about being the president's sixer, and a part of

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Speaker 1: that job presumably would be deceiving investigators, even if it's

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Speaker 1: just to prevent the president from being embarrassed. And you

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Speaker 1: saw that with the sort of payoffs for the for

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Speaker 1: the women who are alleging affairs. And you also saw

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Speaker 1: that with his lie to Congress about Russia, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: lying about this Trump Tower Moscow project. Flynn and Maniford

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Speaker 1: are a little more complicated. They had issues all by themselves.

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Speaker 1: You know that they were sort of doing work for

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Speaker 1: other countries here in the United States and not purporting

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Speaker 1: it correctly. They have sort of self interested reasons to

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Speaker 1: lie to prevent their own legal exposure. But even those

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Speaker 1: crimes that they that they ended up pleading guilty to

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Speaker 1: the lies, even the underlying crimes what we call the

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Speaker 1: FAARA violation. It's not registering as lobbyists for a foreign entity.

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Speaker 1: That's such piddly stuff. I mean, they could have probably

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Speaker 1: just come clean right away, fill about updated forms and

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't have the criminal exposure they did. It really

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Speaker 1: is a mystery to me when I assess all these

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Speaker 1: cases individually, like why did you lie? If you didn't lie,

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Speaker 1: you probably would be okay. At the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: You soon get less trouble than you are having a lot.

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Speaker 1: That's funny. That's exactly the way we've seen it. To

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Speaker 1: Matt Zavatovsky at the wa PO is on the line.

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Speaker 1: So what I tell my two little kids every single day? Right,

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Speaker 1: no kid, you know? And to get back to Stone, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know the idea that and I'm I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: Trump voters, um, And we have plenty of them listening

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Speaker 1: to the Show of Friends Relatives at Centa. If if

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Speaker 1: you were to tell a Trump voter, a court Trump supporter, hey,

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Speaker 1: we found this incredible dirt on Hillary. It came from

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Speaker 1: Wiki Leaks, and they're probably in bed with the Russians,

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Speaker 1: but they they hacked into uh podest his email and

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Speaker 1: you can't believe the stuff these people are saying. Even

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Speaker 1: if Trump voters were thinking, you know, I don't all

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Speaker 1: the fact that you know that Juliana san she's doing

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Speaker 1: Putin's bidding. I don't see like even two percent of

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Speaker 1: Trump voters flaking from supporting Trump because behind Podesta's emails,

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Speaker 1: behind that is the Wiki leaks, behind that as that

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Speaker 1: that's just that doesn't make any sense if anybody be

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Speaker 1: that offended. It is such a complicated question. I suppose

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Speaker 1: in hindsight, will never really know. Right if you look

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Speaker 1: to at Trump Tower Moscow, if if voters had known

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Speaker 1: in real time, hey, these discussions went on a lot

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Speaker 1: longer than President Trump said they did. Would that have

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Speaker 1: changed their mind? It's just so hard to say. Now,

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Speaker 1: who knows, but you know, you would think, like, in hindsight,

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Speaker 1: got she already won the election. So if you're sitting

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Speaker 1: down post election with Congress or with the FBI and

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Speaker 1: you're asked about these things, why not just cop to

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Speaker 1: the dirty political trick. It's not gonna cost you any

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Speaker 1: political It's not gonna cost you as much excuse me,

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Speaker 1: political capital now as it would have when he wasn't

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Speaker 1: president yet he's been elected. If you just cop to it,

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Speaker 1: then you yourself won't be on the hook for a crime.

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Speaker 1: And you could see why Mueller would want to prosecute

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Speaker 1: these people, right. I think prosecutors generally take a dim

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Speaker 1: view of just charging false statements. It to some people

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Speaker 1: see it as a pitally charge. But when you're investigating

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Speaker 1: whether Russia interfered in our election, whether they worked with Americans,

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Speaker 1: and you're getting repeatedly lied to, that's going to strike

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Speaker 1: you as significant. You're gonna wonder why are these people lying?

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Speaker 1: This investigation is so important and maybe at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, it's just focused on Russia. But these

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Speaker 1: people don't seem to want us to get to the truth.

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Speaker 1: So Mueller has been taking a very aggressive stance towards

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Speaker 1: this in charging everybody who lies to the FBI, who

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Speaker 1: lies to Congress allegedly or or or he wants to

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Speaker 1: put him in a position where, look, you're going to

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Speaker 1: spend the rest of your life in jail or a

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Speaker 1: big chunk the rest of your life. You're gonna spend

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Speaker 1: all your money on lawyers. You better tell me anything,

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Speaker 1: you know? Is it just that that there is an

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Speaker 1: element of pressure here, right? And one of Roger Stone's charges,

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Speaker 1: the witness tampering charge, actually has like a twenty year penalty.

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Speaker 1: That just the false statements charges, each one has a

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Speaker 1: maximum five year penalty a witness tamper And this would

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Speaker 1: be him sort of making I think he would probably

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Speaker 1: say they were hyperbolic, and Muller would say he was

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Speaker 1: making threats to these other people. He was talking about

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Speaker 1: Wicky leaks with that's a very serious charge, and that's

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Speaker 1: a significant leverage point if you look back at some

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Speaker 1: of the other people. I think that's how anal Is

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Speaker 1: viewed it at the time. You know, he had this

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Speaker 1: leverage on Flynn for lying, so he flips him, and

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Speaker 1: now he's a cooperator and maybe he can get to

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Speaker 1: his bigger question. Rick Gates same way. He admits to lying,

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Speaker 1: he admits to being involved, and it's kind of bank

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Speaker 1: fraud with Paul Manafort. Now I have leverage to get

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Speaker 1: to the real question of whether the Russians conspired with

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Speaker 1: U S citizens to influence the election, and we'd have

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Speaker 1: yet to see the full fruits of that. But you

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Speaker 1: do see Mueller revealing a little bit more about what

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Speaker 1: he knows, even though he doesn't charge Stone with conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: Seems like he goes out of his way to point

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Speaker 1: out campaign context he has that aren't necessarily illegal. But

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Speaker 1: I do read that a little bit as Mueller kind

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Speaker 1: of putting forward what we call speaking indictments was like

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Speaker 1: letting the public no fact that aren't illegal, but maybe

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Speaker 1: he feels they do serve to Still kind of mushy, though,

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Speaker 1: kind of cloudy. Matt Sapatosky covers national security and the

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Speaker 1: Justice Department for The Washington Post. H Matt, good stuff,

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Speaker 1: Well done, Thanks very much. We'll have a link to

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Speaker 1: the article. Of course, we appreciate the time. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You got it. When you're ready to ride Metro, we

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Speaker 1: want you to know we're ready for you. Here are

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Speaker 1: just a few of the people at Metro to tell

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Speaker 1: you how we're doing our part to keep riders safe.

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Speaker 1: We're cleaning before you've found half st out of suns,

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Speaker 1: of stasistro, no mask, no Metro need one. We have

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Speaker 1: a few extras at Metro. We're doing our part to

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Speaker 1: keep the DC area moving. Find out more at well

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Speaker 1: mata dot com, slash doing our part