WEBVTT - Ep. 694: Did Clovis Hunters Kill All the Mammoths? 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:13.280 If this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:19.320 can't predict anything. 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.800 The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.040 Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.520 for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to support every 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.400 hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.640 dot com. F I R S T L I T 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:41.760 E dot com. All Right, everybody, Today we're gonna dive 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:44.839 in once again on my favorite subject of all subjects 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:49.440 on the planet, which is First Americans. Who got here first? 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.280 What were they doing when they come? How'd they get here? 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:55.320 Did they kill everything? Did they kill all the mammoths? 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.720 All this question? And uh, we have found I'm gonna 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.280 explain in a all in greater detail, we have found 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.319 some fresh perspectives coming out of fresh to me at 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.039 least because I'll explain the whole controversy. This is a 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.360 very this is a controversial subject the First Americans, and 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:14.920 we have had on in the past a number of times, 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:21.119 David Meltzer uh to talk about the peopling of the Americas. 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:22.800 And today we're going to hear from. Is it fair 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:24.600 to call you guys all colleagues because you talk about 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.360 the same stuff. Oh yeah, enemies enemies And I'm trying 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:28.960 to soup it up. 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.400 We have enemies, we have disagreements, but we work well together. 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:34.720 Yeah. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:36.280 No, he respects you guys, and he says he does 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.200 do good work. So who I'm talking about here today 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:42.560 in the in the studio with this is Todd Serravell, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.800 who is the director of the George C. Frison Institute 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:50.080 of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Wyoming. If 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.680 you're interested in the peopling of the Americas and Clovis 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.000 hunters and stuff, you might go in and check out 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.680 the late George C. Frison because he did a lot 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:02.200 of I guess you call experimental archaeology, right, Like, he 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:03.480 went to Africa. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.680 And experiments stuck some some of the most major sites. 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:08.880 He's just kind of like what we call him the 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.440 godfather of Wyoming archaeology. 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.919 And and and he went to Africa to test out 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:15.400 stone tools on elephants. 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.079 Correct, Yeah, he did. In Zimbabwe, they were they had 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.120 an overpopulation problem of elephants and they were calling them 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.399 so he took advantage of that opportunity to test Clovis 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:31.880 weapons on actual African elephants alive, sensibly dead, and dying. 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.119 Is my understanding, got finish them off. 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:36.640 Yeah, he just wanted to see how it would perform. 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.360 Yeah, was it a functional weapon for killing an elephant? 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:41.919 And what did he determined? 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.840 Absolutely, he had no doubt. He's the only guy in 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:51.959 recent time who's hit an elephant with a Clovis weaponry. Yeah, 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.280 a lot of people have done it, actually with deceased elephants, 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.800 but George did it with living elephants. 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:05.520 Yeah. Nowadays, you guys are constrained by the the ethics folks. 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:08.160 That's a hard one to get across. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:11.400 Here's what I'd like to do. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:16.160 I'm gonna stab some elephants. Uh. And Spencer Pelton from 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:20.160 the he's the Wyoming State archaeologist and an adjunct at 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.280 the University of Wyoming's Archaeology and Anthropology department. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.880 That's correct. We should also clarify Todd was my major advisor. 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:29.880 This is like, this is kind of like your Matt 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.160 and Meltzer relationship. Oh, a little bit of uh, you know, 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.800 he brainwashed me into thinking like like he did. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.640 Yeah, so now you have strengthen numbers. 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.160 Man, I'm reading a book right now. We're trying it 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:44.800 was a guy we had on the show. Do you remember, 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:49.520 remember the gun writer And he's a big Safari dude. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:51.920 I'm trying to get him to come back on Thomas 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.720 uh McIntyre. But his name doesn't look quite like McIntire. 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:57.760 Thomas McIntyre, you know him. He's like a gun like 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.280 a like a gun writer. Yeah, you know what I'm 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:04.080 talking about. I remember listening to that. Yeah, Like what's 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.520 super interesting about him is I mean a bunch of things. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:10.960 But he went he got super into Africa and spent 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:12.680 his whole life hunting in Africa. And a lot of 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:14.880 the places he hunted in Africa has now been taken 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:19.320 over by Islamic radicals, Islamic fundamentalists. So like like he 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:21.360 used to hunt and there's a country no one's ever 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.520 heard of in Africa called see. 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.839 Eritre no no. 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.120 West, not on the coast. But it's like, uh damn. 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:35.880 Democratic Republic of Condo. 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:43.320 Cameras, humiliating, come. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:42.359 On, come on. 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.920 Here, you can't do that, Hey, you can't bring it up. 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:55.359 It's like it's like, okay, Africa countries map uh right 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:55.760 where it is. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:56.520 This should go quick. 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:01.000 It's uh no, it is got some coasts. 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.880 Yes, yeah, yeah, see, no one's ever heard of it. 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.760 You can't hunt there anymore. And those same dudes that 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.159 those green brays were mixing it up with, like in Chad, 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.560 are in that area. Anyhow. In his book, he has 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:22.480 a long thing. The book is called Rain without Thunder 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.479 or Thunder without Rain, Thunder without rain. It's about it's 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.680 like a history of the Cape Buffalo. But in there 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:29.520 he's got a lot of stuff about human history. And 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:36.279 he's in this big section right now about poisons, like 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:40.440 poisoning spear points. Oh well, you you might think that 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.960 til you read the book. It was very important to 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:43.880 poison the shaft. 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:45.039 Hum hmm. 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.640 Not the point anyhow, The stuff they could take down 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:56.800 with plant poisons, plant toxins and quick hmm. Yeah. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.880 There's a there's a classic anthropological video of the conkson 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.520 of the jo Uonci the bushmen in the Kalahari no 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.720 hunting giraffe with these tiny little arrows. They just got 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:07.160 to get a couple of arrows in it and then 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.080 track it till it dies. I thought their poison was 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:11.920 insect based, though. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.160 He gets into the No, there's three. He gets into 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:19.280 the three plant genuses. This is a big, thick book. 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.400 He gets into the like the dead, the big sort 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.440 of the Big three, the Big three of plant poisons, 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:30.360 and he kind of juxtaposes those to the toxins that 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.560 they use, the South American toxins, which are more of 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:38.400 like a paralyzing toxin, and then these different plant toxins 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.040 they use. But it just gave him like tremendous efficacy 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.440 on huge ship killing, huge shit, and some of his 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:45.599 stuff just tips right over. 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.600 You're trying to interview him again. Yeah, I don't think 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:54.560 it'll happen. He's dead. No, yeah, when twenty twenty. 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:56.640 Two, his book, he came dead in twenty twenty two. 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:57.920 His book came out in twenty three. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:02.440 No More Canvas Safari's No Outdoor writer Thomas McIntyre dies 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:09.160 at seventy That is November seven, twenty two. We're gonna 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:09.840 need to do it. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:12.720 This book come out in twenty three. 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:13.360 I don't know. 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:17.680 We talked about Yeah, Chris hart Fardley's last movie came 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.400 out six months after he was dead. No shit, really, Yeah, 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.760 I don't think it's that uncommon. Well, he Fledger's joker 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.280 came out how long philed? 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.040 I'm just talking about did he die? I feel like 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:30.600 we should in the studio. We should have a picture 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:31.520 of people be passed on. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.000 Okay, show there. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.680 I don't know, you shouldn't be We'll all be there someday, Spencer. 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:41.600 It's good little bit of research right there. 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:45.520 Yeah. Damn. 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:51.240 When I was doing my uh my research in graduate school, 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.320 I came across articles from like the sixties and seventies 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.080 where they were saying the next big thing in archery 0:07:58.120 --> 0:07:59.280 hunting was going to be poison. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.040 Well they use it in Mississippi, you know, yeah. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:02.680 And that. 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:04.760 But they were like a spade of law after this 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:08.560 became like a thing, there's a spade of laws passed 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.080 to prevent you from using. 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.600 Yeah, a lot of stories explicitly. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.720 Say blood clotting, what poison? 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.800 Didn't they Who does? 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:18.280 I think that's what? 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:18.679 Yeah? 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:19.120 They do? 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.200 Yeah, yeah, you can still use that poison. It's real. 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.760 It's common there. Like I got a buddy, I got 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.040 a buddy. You look at him, you just think he's 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:31.120 a normal guy walking down the street, but he's poison 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:36.320 arrows that deer. What what? What? The late Tom the 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:40.640 late Thomas McIntire gets into that's really heartbreaking me. 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:41.480 I like that guy. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.200 Well he gets into is that there's this other book. See, 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:48.000 I'm going to be going to Africa this summer, so 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:49.560 I'm kind of going to move in. I've been reading 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.079 a lot about the World War two Pacific theater, but 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.800 I'm gonna start moving into Africa stuff. There's a book 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.120 called White Hunter, Black Poacher that I want to read next, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.760 and it kind of gets in to this with like, 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.960 as whites were coming in and Safari culture was taken off, 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:11.559 there was this effort to sort of like demonize indigenous 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.160 hunting methods and so because they were pushing this like 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.880 the only humane way is shooting these large boar rifles 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:23.120 and poisons, are that all these methods they use are 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.920 inhumane and this is more humane and like and then 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:30.360 this effort too to declare these big game ranges and 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.559 if you're like a white dude hunting the game ranges, 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.960 you're like on Safari. If you're a black dude hunting 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:39.120 the game ranges, you're not doing conservation. You're a poacher. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.920 You're this, you're that, And this sort of ethical battle 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.200 over who has access to the resources, which I'm just 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.120 now digging into. But I was I wanted to have 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:49.520 Mono talk about Kate Buffalo. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.000 I'm looking at his Goodreads page. His last published work, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.800 according to them as twenty twelve. They're pretty thorough. 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.640 That's a bald faced live buddy. Because did you type 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.440 in second edition? Did you type in thunder without rain? 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:03.199 No? 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:07.600 But you're lying bald facedly. Well, Spencer's not lying, then, 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.240 that's what I meant. Well, no, because I feel like 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.480 if you read lies and put them out, you're a 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.240 liar too. You're a liar too. All Right, moving on, 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.040 we're gonna get We're gonna die. We gotta have plenty 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.000 of time to talk about Clovis Clovis hunters. But real quick, 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.840 someone wrote in mad because I have there's a few problems. 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:29.640 I always have that like it would take like electroshock 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.360 treatment to have you quit having the problems. One problem 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:40.240 is the whole Roosevelt Roosevelt thing, which like Franklin Ruse 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.800 Theodore Rose, did you know there's a split in the family. No, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.800 I didn't. That screws me up. And the other thing 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:49.280 is what else screws me up? Is one of my 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.240 one of the the proper name for my highest honor, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.960 not referring to my honorary PhD, but refer to me 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.640 being a National Wild Turkey or like to me being 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:06.400 a Royal Slam holder, which I often refer to as 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:11.000 a Super Slam holder. The guy wrote in Very Mad 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:18.200 that I routinely get wrong what it is and insult 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:24.960 the good folks at National Wild Turkey Federation. It's a 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:26.160 Royal Slam. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.760 And you're saying, what a super Slam? 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.520 I always say super Slam, which is like less than 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:32.000 what I have. 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:33.640 No, it's not. 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:36.400 This guy's wild. 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:41.479 It's harvesting one wild turkey subspecies in every state except Alaska. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.120 No, no, no, no, no, dude, it's right here. The Royal Slam. 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.200 According to this joker, if you'll get on Goodreads, what's 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:56.360 his name? According to Brett, Brett says just it just 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:57.439 seems like that this is the kind of thing you 0:11:57.440 --> 0:11:59.600 don't need to argue about since the internet came out. 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.280 But like, mmmm, it's like, I. 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.120 Will read you what nd n w TF. Let's go 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.440 with n WTF. Grand Slam is all for us subspecies. 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:14.760 Royal Slam is the Grand Slam. Plus the Goulds got 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:19.440 it World Slam, Royal Slam plus the oscillated wild turkey. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.640 That's where I'm That's where I that's where i'm. That's 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:23.319 where I'm not Hill. 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.840 And then what Brody was talking about, the US Super 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:30.520 Slam harvest one wild turkey subspecies in every state except Alaska. 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.240 So you're you so Brett is right, you say that 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.280 you're a super Slam holder or well, I but I 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:39.080 say it wrong. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:40.080 That's what I'm saying. 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:41.400 I am a Royal. 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.480 Slam holder, which is all four U s subspecies plus 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:46.920 the goul. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.560 So does that change hot matches up against your honorary 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:53.920 doctorate roy royal? 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.640 You know the problem with having an honorary doctor as 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:00.800 opposed to regular one. You're like, if you do your 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:02.480 I don't have a resume. But we're at to make 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.040 a resume. You're not allowed to put it under education. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:06.599 Oh where do you put it? 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.000 Honors award? And that's a problem. It's a tell. 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.280 It's a real tell. Yeah, because then people look and 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.120 they're like, uhh yeah, I don't like that. But if 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.360 I had an honors thing in my resume, it would 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:25.160 be like Royal Slam holder, And then okay, we're not 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.600 going to talk about these artifacts. It just came out 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:30.640 of just not even going to talk about it. The artifact, 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.120 the six thousand year old hunting kit which is in 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:40.400 like pretty nice shape coming out of a cave in 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.600 Big Ben National Park in Texas, because on Radio Live, 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.560 Spencer's gonna be talking about the guy that did the work. 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.800 In a few weeks, we're going to interview the guy 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:48.439 who found it. 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.079 Can't talk about it now, Okay, hold on, hold that 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:55.640 thought for a minute. There's one nice thing I wanted 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.920 to talk about because this is gonna segue forget. I 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.959 said that because I want to segue that into these boys. 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.320 But you know what's really funny they've been laughing about 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:11.200 is uh a word choice thing. Alaska Fish and Game Department. 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.040 You know, they're doing like they're doing like a tag lottery, 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:17.319 and they referred to a tag. I can't get enough 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.120 of this. They referred to a big game tag as prestigious. 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.760 Mm hmmm, as though holding it like if you look up, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:28.960 like look up the word prestigious. Just read it real quick. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.000 What does prestigious mean? I'd be like holding the tag, 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.800 you'd put it in the honor section of your resume. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.560 Inspiring respect and admiration, having high status. 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:46.200 Yes, so you're like, yeah, you'd be like that would 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:47.760 be like a like a thing you had, like you'd 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.320 bring if you're on a date. Yeah, it's good marketing 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.760 if someone is a little bit out of your league, prestigious, 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:54.760 like you know, you might be curious to know that 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.640 I own a that I hold a keen eye caribou 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:03.600 tag in Alaska, you know, And she'd be like, prestige. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.440 I thought that was a great word choice, prestigious. It's 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:12.280 a prestigious caribou tag. Oh so back to this Adelado 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.400 kit the other I want to hear what you guys 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:17.240 think about this. This will be our this will be 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.000 how we get into it. You guys know meton Aaron 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:20.840 who's been on the show. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:21.600 Okay. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.280 Recently, one of our one of our esteemed colleagues, one 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:29.080 of our esteemed colleagues, Clay Nukeombe, did a Bear Grease 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.320 podcast about some of the ins and outs of the 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.880 Clovis first uh idea and you know, the peopling of 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:38.560 the Americas. He did a little thing on that. A 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.440 lot of the guys we work with are all equally 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:46.240 fascinated by this subject. And in there, uh, Clay is 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:51.680 at with Metton, and Clay is observing that what I 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:56.040 always tell him, which is during the ice age period, 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.200 we're talking about whether you go back. Let let's just 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.600 for just for convenient memory sake, we go back like 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.560 like ten thousand years ago they weren't shooting bows. And 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.040 he's like, well, how do you know they weren't? And 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.000 he see he correct so he cracks playing like, oh 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.960 tell me more, like, how do you know that there 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.640 were no bows? And he said, well because I told him. 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:16.840 Man. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.720 So when this six thousand year old hunting kit comes 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.400 out of this cave in Texas and lo and behold, 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.240 it's not a damn bow. I sent it to Clay 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.360 to say, no notice, no bow, it's an ad a 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.560 laddle n B. And are you guys at a laddle 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:37.280 or at laddle? 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.280 Guys add a laddle all the way, I. 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.720 Say a little oh wow. 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.880 Getting heated interview? 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:50.080 So am I? 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:50.520 Uh? 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:52.120 Who's right? 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.280 Is it just impossible to say what? What? 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:55.640 Like? 0:16:55.800 --> 0:17:01.240 If someone when when when humans and what is now 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:06.480 the United States of America interacted with with mammoths, is 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:11.560 it impossible to say that they were Is it impossible 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:13.280 to say they weren't shooting bows at them. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.360 I don't think it's impossible. I mean, those those projectiles 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.240 are just so big. I just don't think they would 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:22.440 work very well on a boat. And I think that's 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.119 the assumption, right. Also, like what the oldest direct evidence 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.760 for bos in the world is probably the Mesolithic. 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.040 In europeith twenty thousand. That's real. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.639 Probably, Oh really, they haven't that long ago. 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:39.320 Well, it depends. I mean the way we infer bows 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:41.880 is usually based on the size of the stone point 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.960 because we very rarely find the bows themselves. Actually found 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.400 one once in Denmark that was six thousand years old. 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:49.960 That's incredibly rare. 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:51.760 Right, So what was that boat made out of? 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:54.880 I don't know. I was a kid at the time. 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.120 I was maybe twenty two. Is my first archaeological field experience. 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:00.920 It was a It was a about a ten inch 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.399 piece of a bow that had broken and it was 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.440 recycled as part of a fish trap. But yeah, we 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:09.640 were digging in this like they call it Gutcha. It's 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:14.159 like this really muddy sediment and they would make these 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.719 fish traps that were like V shaped fences that went 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.480 to a woven fish trap and the tide would come in, 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:22.919 then would go out, and the fish would get funneled 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.239 into that trap. So that we were coming across all 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.639 these little round pieces of wood standing vertically that were 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.320 the posts for that fence, and I came down on 0:18:30.440 --> 0:18:33.600 one that was d shaped, and that the old guy 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.000 who had been doing archaeology over there forever took one 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.080 look at it and he's like, that's a bow, and 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:39.800 he dug it out and sure enough it was nice 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.399 shaped and piece of a bow. Yeah, it was wild, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.640 but that's really rare. Like normally we're inferring the technology 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.200 from the hard parts that are preserved, right, so finding 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.200 bows themselves is really really uncommon. We do have at lattles. 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.800 We do have bows, but the basic argument that's usually 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.960 made and distinguishing between bow and arrow and at lattle 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:03.880 is the size of the point. Once they get really small, 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:06.640 we say, well arrow said there, we have bow and arrow. 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.120 But that's testable, right, I mean, like, I'm sure people 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.480 could mess around and see can you shoot a Clovis point. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.800 I think people have done like polatics experiments. 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:17.280 David did that for his thesis. 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.119 Yeah, David Howe, one of our master students, has a 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.679 great he's a great public science communicator in his own right. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.280 But he did some holistic experiments with like a crossbow 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.440 and it's basically made points of you know, from that 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.639 big like you know, say a centimeter long, up to 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.720 the size of like a Clovis point mm hmm, and 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:38.800 tested the accuracy of those things the further like according 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.000 to size. And I don't remember his conclusions, but. 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.240 He concluded that you get to a certain size and 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.520 the accuracy declines dramatically with bow. 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:48.600 Yeah. And if you look, so, if you look in 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.520 like a stratified archaeological site, like a rock shelter that's 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:53.719 just got layers and layers of stuff in it. If 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.720 you map out the wits of those projectiles through time, 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:01.520 there's usually this dramatic decrease in width. In Wyoming, for instance, 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.000 it's like fifteen hundred years ago or so, and that's 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:08.080 generally assumed to be demarketing the transition to bow and arrow. 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:10.960 Or you've been using spear throwers, spear throwers, spear throws, 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.040 and all of a sudden you get a bow and 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.919 your projectiles just decrease in size really rapidly. 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:16.520 Got it? 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:18.880 You know that, dude, I was talking about Clay nukembe Yeah, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.200 he killed it. He put a he put a fullsome 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:23.960 point on an arrow and killed a bear with it, 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.680 and the bear piled up in twenty yards. 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.399 I think was there was that on YouTube? Yeah, I 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:30.080 think I saw that. 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.240 I mean he shot what he shot it from my 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.959 three yards or something like that. He dug a underground 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.440 he dug an underground pit and then had a bait 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.680 pile because he knew he wanted to, like he wanted 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.639 to almost be shooting up into the bear, so he 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:49.080 was underground because he wanted a good angle on it. 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:51.160 That's the next level shit man. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.600 Yeah, you know full some points are interesting because it's 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:58.119 really really fine, like a nice, really well made fallso 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.200 points really light. I think it would work just fine 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:02.000 as an arrow point. 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:03.280 Let me hit. 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:07.920 I want I want to do something real quick. I'm 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:09.840 trying to do it quick. I want I want to 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.000 lay out the current. I want to lay out the 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:14.160 what is the debate? 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.879 Which debate? There's many debates, the big debate. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.440 Yeah, the big debate. I want to lay out the 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:22.520 or let maybe you guys, what do you guys want 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:23.960 to do? It lay out to me? But I want 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.000 you to give the other side a fair shake. No, 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.760 I want to do it because I don't want to 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.159 make I don't want I don't want to make you 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:33.639 argue someone else's argument. 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.399 Yeah, yeah, I don't mind making that argument. 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.439 Okay, layout the debate unless you want me to do. 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.280 Well. You did just get this on a a PhD. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.120 Maybe this is your oral examples. 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:46.560 It was. 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:50.600 All right. 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:59.399 For most of my life. The for most of my 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:04.119 life that the dominant narrative about the first peoples to 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.280 come into what is now the United States of America 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:12.040 was that sometime, you know, thirteen thousand years ago, some 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:17.520 big game hunters came over the Bearing Land Bridge, not 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.199 thinking they were probably not thinking they were going somewhere 0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:23.439 like the Bearing Land Bridge was not a narrow It's 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:25.600 not like Moses parting the Red Sea. It was like 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.800 a body of land the size of Texas. Generations probably 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.159 lived and died on it without knowing they were going anywhere. 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:38.159 Came into Alaska, were prevented from going south because there 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:41.200 was just massive ice sheets. This is like the Ice Age, 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:46.840 big glacial ice sheets. Eventually this thing opened up, it's 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:49.560 been described like an ice free cordor opened up and 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.200 it's been subscribe described as if you imagine a long 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.119 coat that has a zip around the bottom and a 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:59.760 zip around the top. The glaciers melted, created this thing 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:03.320 called the ice free Corridor, and these hunters kind of 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:06.000 spilled down onto the American Great Plains around the site 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:12.240 of Edmonton, Alberta, and then raised hell on mammoths, killed, wipe, 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.160 managed to wipe out mammoths and a bunch of other megafauna. 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.960 And it was this like distinct culture. They had a 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:24.600 distinct projectile point they made and with stunning speed, colonized 0:23:27.160 --> 0:23:30.040 the United States down in New Mexico. They were everywhere. 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:31.959 They were to Florida, South America too. 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.640 Yeah, they were in Florida, They're in Washington State, their 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.040 points are up in Michigan. They were just everywhere. And 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:43.120 then out of that group eventually like came all these 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:47.000 different cultures and then you start seeing these distinctive cultural markings. 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:50.399 In the last I don't know a handful of years, 0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:56.760 it's become these these new archaeological sites have thrown this 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.960 into question, putting forward the idea that people were here 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.760 much longer, that the people that were here earlier weren't 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:10.240 Clovis and that Clovis kind of came Clovis evolved here 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:14.560 from other peoples that showed up here. The ice free 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.040 corridor thing isn't true, and these new people seem these 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.600 new people instead came earlier. They came in boats down 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:26.639 the coast, and then they somehow morphed into these mammoth 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:27.640 hunting Clovis people. 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:29.680 How is that? 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:31.160 It's pretty good? 0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:32.400 Really, that's a good synopsis. 0:24:32.520 --> 0:24:35.439 Well, yeah, I mean there's a number of different issues there, right, 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:38.280 Like there's the date of arrival to Alaska. There's the 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:40.639 date of getting south of the ice sheets. There's the 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:42.359 issue of how did they make a living? Did they 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:46.719 drive this extinction event? There's a number of separate issues there. 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:48.840 Did they take the coastal route versus the inland route? 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:52.400 And you're right that we've sort of tied up Clovis 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:55.760 with ice free corridor, pre Clovis with coastal We don't 0:24:55.760 --> 0:24:59.000 necessarily have to tie these things together or like Clovis 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:02.320 with over kill at pre Clovis with not overkill. Right, 0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:04.720 all these things we can sort of view independently. 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:11.879 Let's start with this. When I say, like what is 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:15.240 tell people like what is Clovis? When we say Clovis, 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:16.119 what are we talking about? 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:20.520 The stone tool technology at the most basic level. But 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:24.440 I think it's also come to be associated with a LifeWay, 0:25:24.560 --> 0:25:28.800 highly mobile, use of really high quality raw materials, seemingly 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:35.480 a preference towards hunting large bodied animals, widespread across North America, 0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:38.720 and you know something sitting in South America if you're 0:25:38.880 --> 0:25:42.040 looking at like fluted sales, cave points. 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:42.800 Fishtail points. 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:43.120 Yeah. 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:47.159 And another really clear attribute of Clovis is wherever you 0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:50.040 find it, it dates within a very very narrow time range. 0:25:50.440 --> 0:25:52.640 Depending on who you ask. The Clovis period is three 0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:58.160 hundred to five hundred years m and that was it. Yeah, Yeah, 0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:01.000 that like that the really consistent day across the country. 0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:05.200 What Spencer mentioned that it's sort of a pan continental phenomenon. 0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:07.200 I think that's a really important part of the story 0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.200 because that's not really a thing. After Clovis, you do 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:13.199 get this regional differentiation and never again do you see it. Right, 0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.199 So it suggests that there's really something special about Clovis. 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:20.040 And right, the traditional explanation was is that this was 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:22.439 the technology made by the first people and they're spreading 0:26:22.480 --> 0:26:27.480 this technology across the continent. That's why it's everywhere. It's 0:26:27.560 --> 0:26:30.960 interesting because it's a really unique kind of spear point. 0:26:31.000 --> 0:26:33.119 It wasn't used as fluted points right where they take 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:35.639 these flakes from the base. We're used for a very 0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:39.520 brief period of time and never again. So it's like 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:44.320 this really really good cultural marker of this particular time period, 0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:46.399 and it is a pan continental phenomenon. So how does 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:49.840 that happen if people are already here? Well, the argument 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:53.960 I suppose is it's like a really popular stylistic idea 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:57.440 of how to make a point that spreads among existing populations. 0:26:57.680 --> 0:27:02.480 Can you describe what you mean by a flute and 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:06.760 a point? Like if someone's never if they picture a 0:27:06.880 --> 0:27:10.760 stone point, they have one image in their mind, maybe 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.040 a couple images, but like, what is a flute? What's 0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:15.199 what does a Clovis point look like if you're going 0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:15.879 to draw it? 0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:18.360 Yeah, So the I would say when most people think 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:20.920 of an arrowhead or spear point, right, they're thinking sort 0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:23.399 of a notched variety. We've got sort of a triangular, 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:26.760 bifacially flaked piece of stone that have not just coming 0:27:26.800 --> 0:27:30.120 in from the corners or the sides. That's a later 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:34.679 invention that comes a few thousand years after Clovis. With Clovis, 0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:38.440 we're talking about what we call a lanceolate point. So 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:40.680 it's it's it's long, it's narrow, it comes to a 0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:44.640 tapered and in the base is basically indented. It's concaves old. 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:46.280 I thought, Brodie, would you mean mega favor? 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:46.640 Sure? 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:49.120 Can you run in my office and grab my Clovis 0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:51.399 thrusting spear in the corner. And then I got on 0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.720 my desk. I got some clover, some poles and points. 0:27:53.960 --> 0:27:58.960 Yep, and then and then the flute. The word comes 0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:01.200 from like the flute. It's in a column, right, It's 0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:04.840 like it's a groove. So the really special thing about 0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:07.760 Clovis points and similar points that follow like folsome points 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:10.320 and other regional varieties of Spencer's got something. 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:14.320 That's badass. You met this dude when this is a 0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:18.159 good visual aid? Tyson Arnold drew that wanted me to 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:20.520 hand it off to you as a gift for your studio. 0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:23.760 So where do I hold this film? 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:26.320 That's right? There is great the line drawing of one 0:28:26.359 --> 0:28:28.399 of the points from a psych called the East win At. 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:31.560 What's nuts is this is? This is like the size 0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.439 that's yeah, that's like a giant. 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:38.240 That's a really big one. Usually they're like a big 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:41.600 Clovis point is usually half that long. That's that's exceptionally large. 0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:45.040 But when we're talking about for for folks watch it 0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:51.520 on YouTube, this is the that's a real if you're 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:53.800 a flint nap, it's really hard to do that, like 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:54.840 a high failure rate. 0:28:55.000 --> 0:28:58.800 Yeah, it's almost like if you picture a blade, if 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:01.320 you were to be able to pin sort of on 0:29:01.440 --> 0:29:04.400 the back end, that's sort of the shape, right. 0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:08.200 Yeah, yeah, you know they when they were first found 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:12.000 that archaeologists sort of made analogies to blood grooves some banets, 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:14.880 and I've never read that. Yeah, that was like one 0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:16.920 of the original ideas as to why they were doing that. 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:24.840 Uh, that three to five hundred to your period, can 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:27.520 I U I want to take a stab at like 0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:30.280 a little bit, just trying to describe what you're saying about. 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.760 Did that mean that everybody caught on or did that 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:38.480 mean like, does it make more sense that the reason 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:41.960 everybody was I can't say everybody. Well, let me ask 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:45.160 this question. During this three to five hundred to year period, 0:29:47.000 --> 0:29:48.960 if you find a Clovis point, you date it, it's 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:51.120 this three to five hundred of your period. Can do 0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:53.440 you go anywhere else? Can you go anywhere in the 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:59.520 US and find other technologies that sit right inside that too? 0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:04.520 Like there was different? Or is everything from that window Clovis. 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:09.000 It's a really good question. Generally speaking, everything from that 0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:11.760 window is Clovis except for the site we just dug. 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:16.600 Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of evidence that 0:30:16.680 --> 0:30:20.440 Great Basin has some different stuff going on. Some stem 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:24.480 point components, but by standpoints, I mean they're not fluted, 0:30:25.000 --> 0:30:28.000 they're kind there's more of a stem so at the 0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:30.320 bottom the base of the point kind. 0:30:30.240 --> 0:30:31.880 Of constricts more as a shoulder. 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:34.880 Some of those components seem to overlap with Clovis a 0:30:34.920 --> 0:30:38.240 little bit from the Great Basin, very different technology, and 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:40.080 you look in some of those rock shelters there and 0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:45.400 the lowest most components there seem to overlap with Clovis slightly, 0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:49.040 although Clovis still seems to have some some slightly older 0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:49.880 dates in that stuff. 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:54.160 Got it, And then we talked about this spence. We 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:59.320 talked about this work. What's kind of upset this idea 0:30:59.360 --> 0:31:02.120 that clobus the Clovis first idea was it they keep 0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:06.040 they find these older sites. And I don't know if 0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:09.480 you're gonna regret your word choice, but you said a 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:12.600 problem with these really old archaeological sites is they're not 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:13.800 normal sites. 0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:14.720 Yeah. 0:31:14.800 --> 0:31:18.880 Like there's been tons of stuff in the media, you know, 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:21.640 or it was at a time, like the footprints in 0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:25.840 White Sands. Okay, you got that. You got the dude 0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:29.200 out in Chesapeake Bay. Who's who's finding claiming to find 0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:31.800 really old stuff? Or roading out of banks in Chesapeake Bay. 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:37.680 I know you're only here. Oh, here's the points. See 0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:42.760 we wound up having this picture show up. Brody, Oh well, 0:31:42.880 --> 0:31:45.080 this is like an actual size. Would you guys say 0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:48.160 that's a more normal Yeah, that's a I can't remember 0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:50.560 what one. That's a repel club, that's a replic club, No, no, no, 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:56.760 this is a handmade one. And then here's one half 0:31:56.840 --> 0:32:01.240 to to a knife these met and met in pieces. 0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:04.280 And here's one a half to two a dangle that 0:32:04.360 --> 0:32:08.200 spear right in front of this built Phil's picture. Here's 0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:10.640 a here's a Clovis point half to and it's like 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:15.320 gripping it like imagine there's that that the wood is 0:32:15.920 --> 0:32:17.520 grabbing it like this and it's bound. 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:20.200 Got the hell flapper. 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:23.720 Yeah, split shaft we call it. 0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:29.480 Yeah. Uh, tell me about these really old sites. 0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:33.040 And and and well let's I mean, if we're going 0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:35.560 to talk about them not being normal, let's talk about 0:32:35.560 --> 0:32:36.040 what is normal. 0:32:36.360 --> 0:32:38.000 Tell me what what's a normal site? 0:32:38.320 --> 0:32:41.400 So, you know a lot of Clovis sites. Many of 0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:44.800 the early ones were large mammal kill sites. The first 0:32:45.040 --> 0:32:48.080 excavated Clovis site was actually the Dent site in Colorado. 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:53.360 It's mammoth kill. A few years later Clovis points flakes, tools, 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:57.239 bone rod. It's found with mammoth bones at Blackwater Draw, 0:32:57.400 --> 0:32:59.800 the Clovi site that gives the Clovis Complex its name. 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:02.600 That pattern has been repeated over and over and over 0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.800 again at depending on who you ask, fifteen to twenty 0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:10.680 sites where we have Clovis artifacts associated with mammoths, mastenons, 0:33:10.720 --> 0:33:12.640 and gomphathiers. You know what gomphathias are. 0:33:12.960 --> 0:33:17.240 No, oh, yeah, it's that kind of They got those 0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:21.200 big armored plates on them. No oh, that's not it. Okay, No, 0:33:21.320 --> 0:33:21.680 I don't know. 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:25.640 Gomfatheer is related to a masdon. They're in Central America 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:30.640 and South America. So in northern Sonora, Mexico. The last 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:35.440 twenty years or so a Clovis Gomfithear kill site was found. 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:39.280 So this pattern people, phil, you put one of those 0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:40.920 on the screen, they have a shorter trunk. 0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:45.640 I am not an expert in They oftentimes have two 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:47.720 tusks too. Write I can't, there's some difference. 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:49.840 That's what I was for whatever reason, That's what I 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:51.040 was picturing in my head. 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:57.720 That the early ones definitely have strange cranium morphology things 0:33:57.800 --> 0:33:58.040 going on. 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:00.000 You want to spell that for me if you can't, 0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:02.880 A G O M P H. 0:34:03.080 --> 0:34:09.560 O T H E R E. So that's one aspect 0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:14.120 of Clovis. We also have Clovis bison kills, at least 0:34:14.160 --> 0:34:16.360 two of those, one in Oklahoma, one in Arizona. And 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:21.360 then we have Clovis campsites, and these are basically you 0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:25.160 have heart features, fire pits, people working around them, and 0:34:25.280 --> 0:34:29.839 you have butchered remains of usually large mammals. The site 0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:35.200 we recently dug a lot of bison. And this is 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:39.000 sort of typical hunter gathering archaeology. Right. You have the 0:34:39.120 --> 0:34:42.520 things that hunter gatherers do. You have heart, yeah, they 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.720 have the downward facing tusks and upward Oh yeah. 0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:50.200 Man, I'd get after one of those, man that'd be 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:52.960 a sweet school to have. Look at that thing. 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:58.960 Was that called again gomfa there? Yeah, the genus star 0:34:59.000 --> 0:35:00.000 wars looking. 0:35:00.880 --> 0:35:01.880 That's a good way to describe it. 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:04.320 So that was like an elephant species down in South America. 0:35:04.520 --> 0:35:06.680 Yeah, and in Central America. They probably made it in 0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:10.239 the southern US because because this this one clove is 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:14.600 Gonfitthier killed. It's called Elphine del Mundo. It's it's not 0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:17.320 far from the Arizona border, maybe one hundred miles south 0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:18.760 in Sonora. 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:20.040 Hm. 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:21.040 Wow. 0:35:22.600 --> 0:35:26.520 It says they were on all continents except Australia and Antarctic. 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:28.319 Yeah. 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:32.080 So so clove is archaeology is pretty typical for hunter 0:35:32.160 --> 0:35:34.600 gathered archaeology. I mean, you have these domestic sites where 0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:41.320 people are camping, sitting around fires, making and repairing tools, cooking, scrape, 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:43.600 scraping hides. Then we have bone beds, and we also, 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.000 of course have the Anzac Burial not far from here, right, 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:48.600 we have human remains. Uh. 0:35:49.000 --> 0:35:52.799 Is it is it true that no? Is it true 0:35:52.840 --> 0:35:56.640 that no one's ever found a cloves point actually stuck 0:35:56.800 --> 0:35:57.920 into mammoth bone? 0:35:58.320 --> 0:35:58.919 That is true? 0:35:59.040 --> 0:35:59.239 Yeah. 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.640 Now, there was a case from Brazil somewhere where there 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:06.839 was a some kind of lithic stuck and I want 0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:10.200 to say gonfity or skull. But I saw that a 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:11.719 long time ago. I need to check that. 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:12.840 Are you do you know that? 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:18.800 There was a rumor at the close type site for 0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:20.760 a long time peop were just hauling that stuff away. 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:24.440 And I went there once and did a lot of 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:26.520 reading about it. And there was like a rumor that 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:29.400 some bus driver that like they took kids out to 0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:32.880 see it, and some bus driver allegedly took home a 0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:36.400 mama's school that had a point embedded in his eye socket. 0:36:37.320 --> 0:36:39.280 But it's just like, it's just it's just rumor. 0:36:39.520 --> 0:36:40.239 I've never heard that. 0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:41.560 You never heard that rumor. 0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:45.840 I've heard that rumor twice because I listened to your conversations. 0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:49.600 I think both times it came from you, dude. 0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:55.000 Everybody find I'm going to find where I'm gonna find, Like, 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:57.800 I couldn't have made that up. A bus driver like 0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:00.200 did a bus driver took some kids to see in 0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:01.920 the hall of thing home with them. I wouldn't have 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:05.239 made that up. It's too like much detail. I gotta 0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:07.600 find where I read that. Wherever I read it, I 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:09.160 think is on my bookshelf. 0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:12.759 I know if you find let me know, I don't 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:13.239 want to see that. 0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:15.400 Yeah, I mean, I think when I made that comment 0:37:15.480 --> 0:37:21.200 to you about Clovis sites looking normal and everything before 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:24.800 it not, this is exactly what I'm meaning. Like, you 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:28.080 can dig a site that's two thousand years old, five 0:37:28.120 --> 0:37:31.040 thousand years old, six thousand years old, it all has 0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:34.520 roughly the same characteristics as like a Barry Clovis campsite, 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:37.560 because hunter gathered campsites look a certain way. There's like 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:41.200 concentrations of artifacts where people flint napped, and there's hard 0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:45.520 features that people congregated around to talk and eat and work, 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:48.960 hide and things like that. The pre Clovis record to 0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:53.920 this point has nothing like that. It's all weird stuff. 0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:57.960 And I think in a more general sense, like the 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:00.479 burden approved for this stuff for like over a hundred 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:05.400 years now has simply been find obvious human made artifacts 0:38:05.920 --> 0:38:10.120 in a sealed geologic context, just a good stratigraphic context. 0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:13.520 And I think in our view, you can point to 0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:16.120 any number of these sites that date before Clovis, and 0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:19.480 you can and you can say either the artifacts look 0:38:19.520 --> 0:38:22.479 a little weird or there was some kind of stop. 0:38:22.719 --> 0:38:25.400 When you say weird, what do you mean, I. 0:38:25.440 --> 0:38:29.160 Mean not obviously human made. There's a lot of natural 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:32.960 processes that can produce things that look like artifacts and 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:38.000 rocks falling off a cliff and striking something, getting entrained 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:41.279 in a watercourse and breaking up that way. This is 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:44.120 one of the brilliant projects that met and actually initiated, 0:38:44.640 --> 0:38:47.799 looking at rocks and Antarctica where we know there wasn't 0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:50.719 people and seeing the range of variation and how rock 0:38:50.840 --> 0:38:54.120 is just naturally modified by the by the environment. Really 0:38:54.400 --> 0:38:58.160 great idea that that's why he's doing that is because 0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:00.560 there's a lot of natural process as as they can 0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:02.920 break up rock to make them look like maybe they 0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:04.680 were broken by people when they actually weren't. 0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:11.120 So these old old sites, well what is okay? At 0:39:11.160 --> 0:39:15.160 what date does it become in your mind? When does 0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:17.440 it when does it like tail off? Like you got 0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:20.279 really good sights up to what date and then and 0:39:20.360 --> 0:39:24.239 then you got your weird sites thirteen thousand and that's 0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:27.360 all the calibration stuff is that, like as we understand you. 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:30.440 Calendar yeares, and we're talking about south of the ice sheets. 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:32.920 North of the ice sheets, it's a different story. But 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.719 south of the ice sheets thirteen thousand and onward, beautiful 0:39:36.920 --> 0:39:40.760 normal typical hunter gather archaeology. To give you an example 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:42.880 of the kind of thing Spencer was talking about, he 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:49.719 and I and Sarah Lawn excavated a mammoth two three 0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:53.640 years ago. That mammoth was thirteen thousand, two hundred years old. 0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:56.520 We were really excited to excavate it because you know, 0:39:56.600 --> 0:39:59.000 it's right on the cusp of Clovis, and we thought, eyah, 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:03.680 maybe this is a mammoth by people. Right above the mammoth, 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:05.759 Benmouths was strangely kind of near the top of a 0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:08.400 hill on this on this slope, on the top of 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:10.520 that hill, there's a bunch of shirt or flint, like 0:40:10.640 --> 0:40:13.960 really good material for making stone tools, and that mammoth 0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:16.680 is buried down on these old gravels, kind of like 0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:19.279 in a base of a little draw and we kept 0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:23.120 finding little flakes but all of this local raw material, 0:40:23.160 --> 0:40:26.680 and they're all tiny, like you know, two millimeters, And 0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:29.400 this is this is like a perfect scenario for producing 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.160 things that you could interpret as human made artifacts that 0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:34.920 clearly aren't. All of the local material most of it 0:40:35.200 --> 0:40:38.399 has cortex, meaning it's just like a little chip taken 0:40:38.480 --> 0:40:41.840 off of a natural cobble, looked nothing like a typical 0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:46.200 mythic assemblage, and that there are pre Clovis sites like 0:40:46.280 --> 0:40:48.440 that where you have these things that looks sort of 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:52.040 like artifacts, but they're they're probably not, but they're interpreted 0:40:52.080 --> 0:40:55.799 to be artifacts. And there's also a lot of really 0:40:55.920 --> 0:40:58.080 strange things that show up in pre Clovid sites that 0:40:58.160 --> 0:41:01.440 are argued to be evidence of humans that aren't the 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:04.239 typical things like chipstone artifacts. And I made a list 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:06.800 of those kinds of things. If you're curious, hit me 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:07.279 with the list. 0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:09.480 Yeah, all right, so. 0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:22.680 Footprints, drag marks, fingerprints, copper lights, copper lights are cross poops, seaweed, 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:29.400 balls of seaweed. Uh, underwater meat caches, Spencer pointed. That 0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:35.880 went out to me, there's three cases. Yeah I do. 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:42.360 There are no no underwater meat caches after Clovis to 0:41:42.480 --> 0:41:44.799 my mind, they're only a pre Clovis thing. 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:49.880 Oh really, Yeah, I'm gonna stop telling people about underwater. 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:53.560 Meat cut marks. So, like Mark's on bone, right, you 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:54.239 guys know about that. 0:41:54.440 --> 0:41:56.800 Can we back up to the underwater meat cash? What 0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:00.160 was the site that was interpreted to be this. There's 0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:03.960 a site somewhere where someone had piled up mammoth meat 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:08.560 under a pond filled the intestines full of gravel and 0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:11.839 then use these gravel filled intestines to weigh it down 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:13.480 under that pond. That's badass. 0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:18.480 That site is in the Midwest. I think it's the 0:42:18.560 --> 0:42:20.800 Burning Tree mas it On. It's one that Dan Fisher 0:42:20.800 --> 0:42:24.000 at the University of Michigan published. Okay, yeah, I think 0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:26.240 that's the one. I'm not sure that certain. 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:29.800 And obviously the intestine rotted away, so it's just gravel 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.080 in a line. You're not buying it. 0:42:33.440 --> 0:42:36.879 I mean weird stuff, right, this is this is our point. 0:42:37.400 --> 0:42:41.839 I don't even keep going now, Okay, bone embedded and bone. 0:42:42.080 --> 0:42:42.640 What does that mean? 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:45.359 Like you have a mass it on bone and there's 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:48.080 like another piece of bone like stuck into the rib. 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:52.480 That was healed around it that they argued was a spear. 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:55.520 Point and not to not two of them duking it out. 0:42:56.600 --> 0:43:01.280 That's what other people have said. Yeah, their bone modifications, 0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:03.480 like the ways that bones have been fractured, Like you 0:43:03.560 --> 0:43:06.480 have no artifacts, but bones are fractured in weird ways. 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:11.000 It seemed like only humans could do it. And the 0:43:11.080 --> 0:43:16.600 last one on the list is a pit full of grasshoppers. Okay, 0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:20.200 so this is I just told you about probably twenty 0:43:20.280 --> 0:43:25.240 pre Clovis claims, right, all this weird stuff as opposed 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:28.359 to like, what I'd like to see is like, let's 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:32.000 just say some flakes from from napping Stone around a 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:35.640 heart feature and a really good stratigraphic context. It's well dated. 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:39.040 There are millions of those on this continent. There are 0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:42.520 zero of those in pre Clovis. Mm hmm. 0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:45.920 That's it. 0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:50.200 When you're talking about stratigraphic stratigraphic context, like we're talking 0:43:50.239 --> 0:43:53.640 about eroading banks, you're talking about digging out a hillside, 0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:57.160 like what are what are you when you're thinking about 0:43:57.920 --> 0:43:58.720 where to look. 0:43:58.680 --> 0:43:59.440 For a site? 0:44:00.239 --> 0:44:02.759 Sort of what are the considerations in mind? What is 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:07.560 like a normal site versus what makes things unusual? 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:12.879 I can speak to Wyoming at least the best place 0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:15.680 is define buried archaeology in Wyoming or like rock shelters 0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:21.160 and floodplains in Wyoming and Montana. You walk around the landscape, 0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:24.479 which you guys do a lot, hunting, fishing, whatever, most 0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:27.239 of the landscape that you're walking across has basically zero 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:29.440 potential to preserve an archaeological site. If you're on the 0:44:29.480 --> 0:44:31.680 side of a hill, if you're on a really high 0:44:31.760 --> 0:44:35.279 surface that gets wind scoured. All those areas you can 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:40.279 drop artifacts there, but if they aren't buried immediately with 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:44.400 like datable material or whatever, you can't really preserve that 0:44:44.600 --> 0:44:46.920 archaeological site. Right, you have no idea how old it is. 0:44:47.440 --> 0:44:49.360 But if you drop that stuff in a floodplain that 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:53.040 receives annual flood events, it's going to get buried slowly 0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:56.640 over time and get sealed within that. That's your tigraphy 0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:59.600 and allows us to go back later and actually have 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.000 with some degree of certainty an idea of how old 0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:05.719 that stuff is and that it's not say, mixed with 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:08.800 something that's like ten thousand years younger or ten thousand 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:12.440 years older. It it was just laid down in a 0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:15.920 really specific location conduced with the preservation. It's actually kind 0:45:15.960 --> 0:45:18.359 of rare. Like if you think about just the range 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:21.160 of human behaviors that you do every day, even if 0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:23.719 you're out hunting or whatever, most of the stuff you 0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:26.479 do is not going to be preserved in the archaeological record. 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:29.360 It has to be this confluence of like behavior and 0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:32.680 geologic context coming together to really preserve that activity. 0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:37.279 When Clovis was happening in the America, is what did 0:45:37.360 --> 0:45:39.840 the technology look like on the rest of the planet, 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:42.600 like during that three to five hundred year window. 0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:44.440 Well, that's a lot of planet. 0:45:46.200 --> 0:45:48.759 What about where they just came from, like the last 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:50.120 place they were before the America. 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:53.640 Yeah, that Slana River site where they had that badass 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:56.160 wooly rhinoceros. 0:45:56.000 --> 0:46:02.200 Yanayana rights way up and yeah on bought that those guys. 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:06.120 That's that's twenty thousand years before Clovis in the High 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:08.839 Arctic and in a warm period in the Middle Last 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:13.200 Glaciation where they've got I think spear shafts made out 0:46:13.239 --> 0:46:17.440 of rhinoceros, horn bow needles, beads, amazing things. 0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:20.040 But what about during that same era as Clovis. 0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:25.920 So if we go north to Alaska, just prior to Clovis, 0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:28.720 there's plenty of good archaeology starting with about fourteen thousand, 0:46:28.800 --> 0:46:31.359 it looks similar to Clovis. I mean, people are making 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.960 bifacial projectile points. The one big difference is they're making 0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:38.360 a lot of microblades. It's really tiny, really long, skinny, 0:46:38.480 --> 0:46:43.040 sharp flakes that then they you know, they'll have in 0:46:43.120 --> 0:46:45.160 a long piece of bone to make a really deadly 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:50.040 spear point. You have end scrapers, pretty typical hunter gatherer stuff. Really. 0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:53.160 Maybe the biggest difference at that time is if you're 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:57.520 to go, say to Israel, Middle East, you're right on 0:46:57.600 --> 0:47:00.520 the cusp of the origins of agriculture around clover times, 0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:03.160 and within a thousand years people are growing crops. 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:15.000 I think, what's your take on the overkill hypothesis. 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:18.200 I think there's a lot of really strong evidence for it. 0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:24.719 I love it, and you know I love it. It's 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:26.799 not not light more than the overkill hypothes you're talking 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:29.320 about the blitz kreeg. Right, Yeah, the idea, well, the 0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:35.000 idea that there's a there's again there's an ongoing debate 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:42.000 about what role did humans have in wiping out everything 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:46.920 that was bigger than a modern American buffalo like when 0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:50.200 it was over like now that during this period of time, 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:52.319 like let's say, from twenty thousand years ago to ten 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:57.600 thousand years ago, I think nine genuses, So nine genera 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:03.640 of animals when extinct, thirty five genera thirty five genera 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:05.040 in North America. 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:08.040 And forty some genera in South America. So let me 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:09.120 let me be caun. 0:48:09.160 --> 0:48:10.320 I hate you. What can I want to add? The 0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:17.320 little wrinkle before you start. Yeah, folks will say, we 0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:24.520 have thirteen, fourteen, fifteen mammoth kill sites. We have zero 0:48:25.400 --> 0:48:31.160 giant groundsloft kill sites, we have zero. What was that 0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:34.680 big ass one hundred pound beaver catch? 0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:35.839 Yeah? 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:39.879 Where are all the kill sites of those? Like, where 0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:42.960 are all the short faced bear kill sites? If they 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:45.120 were killing all this, where. 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:45.359 Is it all? 0:48:45.920 --> 0:48:49.120 Yeah, that's the right question, you know that. I I 0:48:49.239 --> 0:48:52.480 was telling Spencer this this morning that I started out 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:55.800 incredibly skeptical of overkill for exactly that reason, right, Like, 0:48:55.880 --> 0:49:00.520 as archaeologists, we work at a material world and we 0:49:00.600 --> 0:49:03.360 look at material evidence, and when there's no material evidence, 0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:05.520 it's like, how do you believe something actually happened if 0:49:05.520 --> 0:49:09.760 there's no evidence for it? So, yeah, it's a sticky 0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:13.359 problem when we talk about mammoths. Is actually a huge 0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:15.760 number of mammoth kill sites. When you say only fourteen, 0:49:15.800 --> 0:49:17.759 it's actually a huge number given the amount of time 0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:19.640 and space we're talking about, Like you feel that that 0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:23.160 is a lot, It's it's a gigantic number. We did 0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:27.759 a study comparing the density of mammoth kill sites in 0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:30.759 Clovis times to all other elephant kill sites from the 0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:33.480 rest of the world. Elephants are interesting, right because, as 0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:37.440 you mentioned, they used to occupy every part of the 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:39.840 world except places they couldn't swim to, Right, So you 0:49:39.920 --> 0:49:42.720 have them in Africa, Europe, Asia, North and South America. 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:45.239 It's really their absence that's the unusual thing, even like 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:49.600 Wrangle Island, Yeah, the Greek Islands Islands dwarf mammoths, and 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:55.799 the Mediterranean Islands Channel Islands. Yeah. And if you look 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:58.880 at it in terms of the density of mammoth kills 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:01.920 in time, especially a four hundred year time period, I mean, 0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:07.000 it's a huge number of sites that it's really surprising 0:50:07.080 --> 0:50:10.040 to me that we're questioning whether Clovis people were hunting 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:14.279 moments and whether they affected their populations, given to the 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:17.560 absolute incredible abundance of evidence that we have for it. Yeah, 0:50:17.640 --> 0:50:20.400 fourteen is not a very big number, but given the 0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:22.880 total number of Clovi sites that actually speak to what 0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:25.200 Clovis people were doing, what they were hunting, it's a 0:50:25.280 --> 0:50:25.799 huge number. 0:50:29.239 --> 0:50:32.719 Is there any guesses, like during that Clovis period, Is 0:50:32.760 --> 0:50:36.839 there any guesses how many of them were, like, say, 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:38.960 in North America in that time. 0:50:39.040 --> 0:50:43.080 How many clothes people? Yeah, sure, we can we can 0:50:43.239 --> 0:50:45.720 sort of estimate that by looking at modern hunter gatherer 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:48.880 population densities, it's a it's a really complicated problem because 0:50:49.320 --> 0:50:52.040 you know, first, if they're first they started basically a 0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:55.240 population of zero, and then they grow to some presumably 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:58.960 some caring capacity or some environmental limit, right, and the 0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:01.000 number of people is going to very across the continent. 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:03.520 But when I tried to estimate it once, I got 0:51:03.640 --> 0:51:05.880 numbers in the neighborhood of thirty thousand to one hundred 0:51:05.880 --> 0:51:06.479 thousand people. 0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:08.760 What about mammoth's populations. 0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:11.120 We can estimate that too. I'm not going to make 0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:13.680 up numbers, but I don't know. I don't know off 0:51:13.719 --> 0:51:15.640 the top of my head. But it's a lot. It's 0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:15.920 a lot. 0:51:17.000 --> 0:51:19.520 Is it fair when you talk about that? Fourteen is 0:51:19.520 --> 0:51:21.440 a lot of sights. As you're saying that, I'm kind 0:51:21.440 --> 0:51:24.440 of thinking in my head of you know, I've done 0:51:24.440 --> 0:51:26.080 a lot of hunting throughout my life. I'm trying to 0:51:26.080 --> 0:51:33.879 think about ever made if I ever made a archaeological site, Well, 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:36.120 you absolutely have know what I'm saying, Like that I 0:51:36.360 --> 0:51:41.520 made a discernible that was preserved. Like we're they're like, oh, 0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:46.080 a guy killed a deer and then left his like 0:51:46.440 --> 0:51:50.480 like bullet fragments, a knife blade, and it's all sealed 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:52.000 up in some river bottom somewhere. 0:51:52.120 --> 0:51:54.520 I think it'd be. I think it's probably pretty rare. 0:51:54.600 --> 0:51:56.560 I mean, you've probably had so that's what I'm thinking. 0:51:56.640 --> 0:51:58.759 It is like most of the animals you've butchered out right, 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:01.360 You've you've left some stuff. The coyotes have dispersed it. 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:05.520 So what was an archaeological site in the moment now 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:09.120 becomes just kind of a scatter of chewed up deer 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:11.960 bone or whatever, and it's no longer really discernible as 0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:15.080 an archaeological site. So yeah, I mean, just like the 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:18.960 preservation of archaeological sites period is kind of a miraculous 0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:22.280 thing and to have That's why I taught saying fourteen 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:25.239 mammoth kills, given all the ravages of time and the 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:28.400 unlikelihood for these things to be preserved, and the very 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:31.320 small number of sites from that time period, in general, 0:52:31.520 --> 0:52:34.640 it's a lot. It's like a substantial percentage of the 0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:38.479 Clovis sites that have ever been excavated are mammoth kills. 0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:43.600 It's the most common animal in Clovis funnel assemblage is mammoth, 0:52:45.360 --> 0:52:48.120 which is which is shocking right, because if you just 0:52:48.160 --> 0:52:50.560 go out there hunting, you and you sort of if 0:52:50.600 --> 0:52:52.840 you take the attitude I'm gonna kill whatever I come across, 0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:55.520 You're not gonna encounter mammoths a lot, right, You're gonna 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:59.960 have funnel asemblages dominated by rabbits, squirrels. It's gonna be 0:53:00.040 --> 0:53:03.759 way more dear kills than mammoth kills. The bigger the 0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:06.160 animal is, the less common they are in the landscape. Right, 0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:09.520 So when you see this real focus on these large animals, 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:12.160 it tells you they're going after those things and they're 0:53:12.160 --> 0:53:14.640 ignoring opportunities to go after these smaller animals. Not to 0:53:14.680 --> 0:53:17.319 say they didn't occasionally take them, but they're really specializing 0:53:17.760 --> 0:53:21.120 in the predation of these large animals. Why, because you 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:24.840 get the most bang for your buck. I mean, you 0:53:24.960 --> 0:53:27.280 bring down a mammoth, let's say it takes you two days, 0:53:27.920 --> 0:53:30.200 you get enough food to feed thirty people for a month. 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:32.760 It's sort of like wow, yeah. 0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:35.279 Yeah, I was gonna ask, is there any evidence like 0:53:36.280 --> 0:53:40.080 average size of like a Clovis group, Like how many 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:40.880 people would be. 0:53:41.560 --> 0:53:43.839 Eh, this guy just tried to answer that question. 0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:44.920 How many. 0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:49.400 We've been working on this laprel Clovis site in Wyoming 0:53:49.520 --> 0:53:52.200 for how we worked on it for a decade, opened 0:53:52.280 --> 0:53:55.399 up the site in twenty fourteen. A few years ago 0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:59.560 we decided we try to actually chase out how big 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:01.960 this is. The site's very ten to fifteen feet deep, 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:03.680 so it's not like you can just walk over and 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:06.720 chase out the artifacts and say like, okay, the site's 0:54:06.800 --> 0:54:09.319 right here. So we ended up sinking all these really 0:54:09.400 --> 0:54:12.360 deep augurs and this systematic grid over the site, screening 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:14.319 all the dirt out of it, and finding these little 0:54:14.360 --> 0:54:17.160 tiny artifacts. We ended up finding a site that was 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.680 a couple of acres big. If you compare that to 0:54:20.239 --> 0:54:23.200 the size of ethnographic we documented campsites where we have 0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:27.399 known numbers of people. It's somewhere between thirty and fifty people. 0:54:29.320 --> 0:54:32.160 So in that site in particular, too, it looks like 0:54:32.239 --> 0:54:36.480 there's it's kind of these clusters of houses kind of 0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:39.319 around this mammoth kill got at least three of these 0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:43.200 pretty big clusters east of which might contain say two 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:45.480 to four houses, so it all kind of adds up 0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:49.279 to about that number. We might not have found the 0:54:49.360 --> 0:54:51.040 edge of the site. I think we did our best, 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:54.279 but it seemed like it seemed like we about chased 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:56.440 the edge of it out. So if you compare just 0:54:56.760 --> 0:54:58.920 the amount of space that hunter gatherers use in the 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:02.680 campsite to the space of that site, we land on 0:55:02.760 --> 0:55:05.759 this number of about thirty five people or so hm. 0:55:05.800 --> 0:55:07.879 Hm and nothing could feed them for a month. 0:55:08.719 --> 0:55:11.520 Yeah, but that mammoth, I don't think they ate much 0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:18.800 of it. That's that's my interpretation was that this mammoth, 0:55:20.040 --> 0:55:22.759 it was largely an anatomical order when it was excavated, 0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:24.400 meeting the bones, it's still sort of laid out in 0:55:24.440 --> 0:55:30.640 anatomical order, So it wasn't heavily butchered if they if 0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:34.120 they did butcher it, they did not move any bones. 0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:35.880 So it's possible like and all these. 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:37.000 Called gauntless methods. 0:55:37.120 --> 0:55:41.400 Yeah, yeah, no, they certainly the certainly could have filated 0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:42.920 a lot of meat off of this mammoth. But in 0:55:43.000 --> 0:55:46.279 all these house areas that we dug, we dug four 0:55:46.360 --> 0:55:49.640 of them, the only mammoth we got was ivory, and 0:55:49.719 --> 0:55:51.640 they were working the ivory. But we have no no 0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:56.560 rib fragments, no footbones. And we also have a lot 0:55:56.600 --> 0:55:59.240 of evidence for use of other big animals, mostly bison 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:01.840 around these in these houses. So they're sitting next to 0:56:01.920 --> 0:56:06.080 this big dead elephant. It's a subadult's probably in its twenties. 0:56:06.160 --> 0:56:09.840 It's probably I don't know, five ton animal. It seems 0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:12.479 barely butchered and they're not really moving the bones around 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:15.600 except for the ivory, and they're and they're eating bison. 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:19.520 So what do you big of that? I guess you don't. 0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:20.080 Who knows. 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:23.279 There's a lot of animals, And I mean, like when 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:26.120 you all butcher animals, right, like, you can kind of 0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:28.879 stop whenever you can. You can always get a little 0:56:28.920 --> 0:56:30.960 bit more marrow out of the animal or do or 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:32.680 you can like maybe you want to take the liver 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:34.880 or whatever. Well, a lot of times you don't do 0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:37.040 that right because you don't need to same thing here. 0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:39.960 If you have animals at your disposal and you don't 0:56:40.000 --> 0:56:41.960 need to go to all that crazy effort to get 0:56:42.000 --> 0:56:43.920 every last calorie out of that animal, then you're just 0:56:44.000 --> 0:56:44.640 gonna take what. 0:56:44.719 --> 0:56:47.320 You want and move on do the gourmet butchery. 0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:51.799 Yeah, you know, you hear people talk about and when 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:53.560 I say people, I mean like people in the discipline 0:56:53.600 --> 0:56:56.080 that you're in. Right now, I'm holding in my hand. 0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.480 If you're watching, I'm holding my hand a Clovis point 0:56:58.560 --> 0:57:03.080 that's half to don d a knife blade. So I'm 0:57:03.120 --> 0:57:07.200 doing some devil's advocacy here. So what we know if 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:09.279 you look at the archaeological record, this is half the 0:57:09.320 --> 0:57:12.480 DOWNTO wouldn't handle with sinews. Okay, the sinews ride away, 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:15.880 the wood rots away, and all you have is the 0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:22.439 stone left and some bone. Earlier, I mentioned that they've 0:57:22.520 --> 0:57:26.520 never found one of these points embedded into mammoth bone, 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:28.760 and I don't even know how possible that is. I'm 0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:30.880 sure you could study it, whether it's some pot like 0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:33.320 if you took a mammoth femur and jabbed it with this, 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:35.120 do you ever get it to actually stick and dry 0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:37.320 in there or not? I don't know. So you have 0:57:37.520 --> 0:57:42.120 bones and you have stone. We assume because the stone's there, 0:57:43.640 --> 0:57:47.160 were like, oh they stabbed it. They stabbed it, and 0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:49.200 these are stuck in there because that's how they killed it, 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:53.800 all right. Someone else, who's pushing a narrative that they 0:57:53.880 --> 0:57:57.439 weren't mammoth hunters, says, well, they found it lay in dead, 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:02.439 and then they not that the stone. The point didn't 0:58:02.480 --> 0:58:04.240 get there on the end of a spear shaft. It 0:58:04.360 --> 0:58:06.880 was there because it was on their little knife which 0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:10.760 they cut this dead one up with. As a like 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:14.640 as an outdoorsman. What I always laugh about about that 0:58:14.800 --> 0:58:21.240 explanation is, and you guys could bat me up on this, 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:23.720 when you're out wandering around the mountains or out wandering 0:58:23.720 --> 0:58:30.200 around the woods, you do not often encounter fresh dead stuff. 0:58:32.160 --> 0:58:32.560 Like it. 0:58:32.720 --> 0:58:35.200 It vert like I can almost go out and say, like, 0:58:35.360 --> 0:58:39.360 it doesn't happen the ju lane highway. Yes, yeah, but 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:43.560 I'm saying out right out yeah, encountering all this fresh 0:58:43.640 --> 0:58:47.040 dead stuff, if you wanted me to produce a dead thing, 0:58:47.640 --> 0:58:49.960 it'd be much more like I would be much quicker 0:58:50.040 --> 0:58:52.000 at producing a dead thing by killing it than I 0:58:52.040 --> 0:58:53.800 would wander around. So I found it, you know what 0:58:53.800 --> 0:58:56.040 I'm saying. So I've always laughed at but that's like 0:58:56.080 --> 0:58:58.840 an idea, is that is that they were just finding 0:58:58.920 --> 0:58:59.960 them laying around. 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:02.160 Everyone And if you did find one, would you go 0:59:02.320 --> 0:59:07.160 shoe that's a good eating I don't think so. 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:10.040 Yeah. I mean I've had this argument with colleagues, right 0:59:10.080 --> 0:59:12.840 they're like this this this site we're digging laprell, there's 0:59:12.840 --> 0:59:14.880 this dead mammoth there. There's not a clovise point in it. 0:59:15.520 --> 0:59:17.600 There's a Clovis Point about forty feet away from it. 0:59:17.840 --> 0:59:22.680 You're yeah, people said, yeah, somebody we paid to dig. 0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:28.959 Seriously, yeah, in an excavation, know, yeah, forty ft away. 0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.280 It's a big sight. Is this camp. There's this dead 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:34.920 mammoth in this really cool camp around it, right, and 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:37.400 that the the Clovise point is in the camp area. 0:59:38.720 --> 0:59:42.200 But people were not in with it, not in the mammoth. 0:59:42.600 --> 0:59:44.000 People will say to me, how do you know that 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:46.680 mammoth wasn't scavenge? And the argument I make is exactly 0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:48.400 what you just made, which is there a hell of 0:59:48.400 --> 0:59:51.960 a lot more opportunities to exploit a live mammoths than 0:59:52.040 --> 0:59:55.880 dead ones. Also, you know this this this sort of 0:59:55.920 --> 0:59:59.160 this divide in the discipline about whether we see Clovis 0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:01.480 hunters a sort of living in this land of abundance. 1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:05.560 As Spencer sort of just described, why eat this really 1:00:05.640 --> 1:00:08.480 lean mammoth if I can access bison any time I want? 1:00:08.600 --> 1:00:11.000 Sort of the idea, I'm the first person in this 1:00:11.160 --> 1:00:13.520 land and these animals are naive to me and like 1:00:13.800 --> 1:00:17.240 it's easy living versus these are the first people in 1:00:17.280 --> 1:00:19.200 the land. They're kind of lost, they're scared of these 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:22.800 big animals. They don't know the animal behavior. It's dangerous 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:25.880 to hunt them, so they're being really cautious, right, mammoths 1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:27.000 are too dangerous. 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:29.880 But that Yeah, but they've been dealing with them for 1:00:30.920 --> 1:00:33.960 They've been dealing with them for generations and thousands of miles. 1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:37.560 I'm on your side, man, I mean, I think people 1:00:37.880 --> 1:00:41.960 they were they but their right, they have like one 1:00:42.000 --> 1:00:44.200 hundred year generation. 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:47.960 Because they were there's mamoson Siberia. Absolutely, they'd know no like, 1:00:48.280 --> 1:00:52.440 they would know no reality. They would know no reality 1:00:52.560 --> 1:00:56.560 in which even their most distant ancestor wasn't dealing with them. 1:00:57.440 --> 1:00:59.920 I would say even if they came into the America's 1:01:00.080 --> 1:01:02.200 and had never seen a mammoth, they would really quickly 1:01:02.280 --> 1:01:06.560 learn learn how to expertly prey on that animal, and 1:01:06.600 --> 1:01:08.800 they would enjoy the hell out of it, in part 1:01:08.800 --> 1:01:11.040 because of the danger, in part because you bring down 1:01:11.080 --> 1:01:12.760 all this meat. You can make your life for all 1:01:12.800 --> 1:01:15.760 your friends better. You can use that for social capital. 1:01:17.000 --> 1:01:18.640 You get a lot of prestige you bring down an 1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:23.160 animal like that. Right, So yeah, I very much think 1:01:23.240 --> 1:01:25.160 this was a good time to be a human. When 1:01:25.200 --> 1:01:27.280 you're the first first person in a place, you guys 1:01:27.400 --> 1:01:29.520 understand that as hunters, right, you want to hunt where 1:01:29.560 --> 1:01:33.040 nobody else hunts. Yeah, so the big animals are so 1:01:33.160 --> 1:01:36.000 we have the best opportunities, So we have the most animals. 1:01:35.720 --> 1:01:39.760 Right, we see this. This is how I've explained at 1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:43.360 various times of people is like you can find isolated 1:01:43.440 --> 1:01:45.280 instances of what it might have been like for them. 1:01:45.280 --> 1:01:47.800 Because when you look at when whaler's or like as 1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:52.080 soon as trans oceanic shipping and whalers started hitting these 1:01:52.160 --> 1:01:55.880 islands that no one had ever been on, like, no 1:01:55.960 --> 1:01:59.240 one found the say shells until transoceanic shipping, Like no 1:01:59.360 --> 1:02:02.840 one found it. There's one mammal of fruit bat like one. 1:02:02.920 --> 1:02:04.919 It's so far out there, like no mammal had found 1:02:04.920 --> 1:02:07.960 it except for a flying mammal. When dudes get on 1:02:08.080 --> 1:02:12.280 these islands, they're just picking shit up. They're walking around us, 1:02:12.320 --> 1:02:14.720 grabbing birds by the neck, birds are trying to land 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:19.160 on them. They're like literally carrying just like picking up 1:02:19.240 --> 1:02:22.200 and carrying turtles and stacking them in their boats upside down. 1:02:22.320 --> 1:02:22.520 Yeah. 1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:25.360 This the survival of giant tortoises on the Seychelles, the 1:02:25.440 --> 1:02:28.680 survival of giant tortoises and the Galapagos, both things and 1:02:28.760 --> 1:02:31.640 both both the same thing in both cases. Right, no humans, 1:02:31.760 --> 1:02:32.680 no historic period. 1:02:34.520 --> 1:02:37.360 We just filled our boat like with live ones. 1:02:39.880 --> 1:02:42.920 So we about the knife question. You know, I did 1:02:42.960 --> 1:02:45.120 a study with Dave Kilby and Bruce Huckle and others 1:02:45.320 --> 1:02:48.720 looking at this question of Clovis's knives and the idea 1:02:48.760 --> 1:02:51.440 of whether you know, Clovis points could actually kill a 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:54.440 mammoth or not. And and one thing we looked at 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:59.720 was where you find complete points versus broken points. Complete 1:02:59.720 --> 1:03:04.440 points and people generally don't discard functional tools, right, And 1:03:04.560 --> 1:03:06.960 we know from the like later bison kills that you 1:03:07.120 --> 1:03:11.600 really commonly find complete points and bison kills because you 1:03:11.800 --> 1:03:13.840 kill this big mass of animals, you lose the points, 1:03:13.880 --> 1:03:15.520 You lose them in the mess, and you don't get 1:03:15.560 --> 1:03:18.040 them back. It's like a really commonplace to find complete points. 1:03:19.040 --> 1:03:20.840 In camps. You find the broken points when they do 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:23.680 retrieve the weapons, they're broken and they retooled. You find 1:03:23.680 --> 1:03:25.760 the broken ones in camps and the complete ones and kills. 1:03:25.800 --> 1:03:28.360 So we looked at this for Clovis and we find 1:03:28.440 --> 1:03:30.680 absolutely in these mammoth kills you have a lot of 1:03:30.760 --> 1:03:33.680 complete points. If these are knives, you have to ask yourself, 1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:39.000 why are these people discarding six inch beautifully functional. 1:03:39.120 --> 1:03:44.080 Well, it takes in their hand the whole time, presuming right, like. 1:03:44.080 --> 1:03:46.520 At the Knocko mammoth, you've got eight of these inside 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:49.040 the animal. And by the way, you keep asking about 1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:52.200 like artifacts embedded in the bone, and mammoth bone that 1:03:52.240 --> 1:03:54.120 has been found twice I think in the Upper Paralytic 1:03:54.200 --> 1:03:56.440 of Europe. At the layer site, which is a mammoth 1:03:56.520 --> 1:03:58.880 kill in Arizona, there are two Clovis points right between 1:03:58.920 --> 1:04:02.160 the ribs of them, right, we'd expect them to find them, 1:04:02.240 --> 1:04:04.360 you know. So yeah, not embedded in the bone, but 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:08.360 pretty much in a place where you shouldn't be questioning 1:04:08.400 --> 1:04:11.120 what this association between a weapon and a dead animal is. 1:04:11.280 --> 1:04:13.200 Right. That is a good point that if you got 1:04:13.320 --> 1:04:15.760 that big old pile on them, guts and shit, you 1:04:15.840 --> 1:04:18.560 know that if you had stabbed them in there, you 1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:20.560 might not retrieve them out. I mean, I've cut my 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:23.120 hand on broad heads I couldn't find inside deer. 1:04:24.360 --> 1:04:26.640 Yeah, and especially if they have a foreshaft, right, because 1:04:26.640 --> 1:04:29.200 the fore shaft detaches in its way in the body cavity. 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:32.400 And if you know one thing interesting about butchering mamot's, 1:04:32.440 --> 1:04:35.360 if they fall on one side. Forget about that stiff. Yeah, 1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:38.120 it really only but like one side of the animal, 1:04:38.160 --> 1:04:41.120 because if you can't turn it over right, so if 1:04:41.200 --> 1:04:43.800 you shot it from that side, you might lose every 1:04:43.960 --> 1:04:45.280 weapon that went in from that side. 1:04:46.200 --> 1:04:49.200 What are their tools did Clovis people have? Like was 1:04:49.240 --> 1:04:51.280 there anything that would be redundant if you were to 1:04:51.360 --> 1:04:53.680 use that as a knife? Like do we already know? 1:04:53.760 --> 1:04:53.840 Oh? 1:04:53.920 --> 1:04:55.800 They had a knife sort of thing. 1:04:56.560 --> 1:04:57.000 Yeah, it's it. 1:04:57.120 --> 1:04:59.520 I mean, oh, Brodie, can you can you run me 1:04:59.520 --> 1:05:00.240 another hair and do? 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:01.520 Yeah? 1:05:02.520 --> 1:05:05.120 You didn't grab did you bring my bone? My bone 1:05:05.160 --> 1:05:05.720 shafts down? 1:05:06.160 --> 1:05:07.160 The little white ones? 1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:12.080 Keep grabbing those, see you guys in a minute. Brody's 1:05:12.080 --> 1:05:14.840 getting the workout. We've got a why don't sit in 1:05:14.920 --> 1:05:15.280 that chair. 1:05:16.000 --> 1:05:18.600 It's a pretty great sample of Clovis tools from this 1:05:18.760 --> 1:05:22.280 Laprell site we keep talking about, Uh, you know, stone 1:05:22.280 --> 1:05:25.960 age toolkits don't actually change a ton between Clovis and 1:05:26.080 --> 1:05:27.800 like the recent pass on the planes. You need the 1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:30.200 same stuff. You need stuff to cut things with, you 1:05:30.280 --> 1:05:32.600 need stuff to poke holes with, you need stuff to 1:05:32.640 --> 1:05:35.400 scrape with. It's like basically the three things that stone 1:05:35.400 --> 1:05:39.680 tools do. So stone knives and Clovis as sandwiches and 1:05:39.760 --> 1:05:43.280 my experience are just really large flakes. Sometimes they're retouched 1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:45.360 on one edge and in my experience just messing with 1:05:45.480 --> 1:05:47.400 hides and to find quart site to be the best 1:05:48.080 --> 1:05:50.000 medium to use it. I think it's because it got 1:05:50.080 --> 1:05:51.760 a little grit to it. It kind of cuts into 1:05:51.800 --> 1:05:55.240 the meat a little better. There's also at the laprel 1:05:55.320 --> 1:05:58.840 site of big chopper. I watched you guys as bison 1:05:59.440 --> 1:06:03.160 butchery experiment. One thing you're missing it met and tried 1:06:03.160 --> 1:06:04.840 to make you as a big chopper to get those 1:06:04.920 --> 1:06:07.400 ribs off. Got it. But at La probably have this cobble. 1:06:07.480 --> 1:06:10.480 We have two of them, two choppers. Yeah, cobble that 1:06:10.600 --> 1:06:12.720 fits just perfectly in your hand with like three flakes 1:06:12.760 --> 1:06:14.200 taken off of the edge of it. Something you can 1:06:14.240 --> 1:06:17.840 just bash with really common tool type, like in any 1:06:18.840 --> 1:06:22.160 large mammal butcherings with a hand axe basically. Yeah. 1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:24.120 In fact, you find them in an old one like 1:06:24.200 --> 1:06:26.280 one point eight million years old, the oldest choppers, and 1:06:26.320 --> 1:06:27.400 you find them in Clovis too. 1:06:27.920 --> 1:06:31.680 I'd say one underappreciated aspect of these hunter gathered toolkits, 1:06:31.680 --> 1:06:33.200 the stuff to they close with. This is what I 1:06:33.440 --> 1:06:37.240 studied primarily for my dissertation and that's scrapers, so you 1:06:37.560 --> 1:06:40.160 just a stone scraper retouched it on one end. You 1:06:40.240 --> 1:06:42.400 stick it into a handle to get some leverage, and 1:06:42.400 --> 1:06:44.320 it's what used to scrape dry high to make it 1:06:44.360 --> 1:06:48.440 more pliable. Also perforating tools that you'd use to prepare 1:06:48.560 --> 1:06:52.560 seams to sew clothing with, because you're using using these 1:06:52.600 --> 1:06:54.840 bone needles right and with bone needles don't have really 1:06:54.880 --> 1:06:57.640 the tensile strength to perforate leather all the time, so 1:06:57.720 --> 1:07:00.760 you prepare a scene with little perforators and stitch it up. 1:07:01.640 --> 1:07:04.880 It's really kind of the the bread and butter of 1:07:04.920 --> 1:07:07.200 a stone age tool gets these things where you scrape things, 1:07:07.240 --> 1:07:10.080 a scrape hide, perforate hide, and cut up animals with. 1:07:10.960 --> 1:07:13.800 I would say there is one knife form possibly which 1:07:13.840 --> 1:07:17.680 is the ultra thin Byface, which is a really really 1:07:17.760 --> 1:07:22.560 beautifully made, super thin bifacial knife that we've found a 1:07:22.600 --> 1:07:24.960 few of, the prowl. They're more commonly associated with Folsom, 1:07:25.000 --> 1:07:27.240 which follows Clovis in the West, but there are non 1:07:27.280 --> 1:07:29.320 Clovis examples, probably knives. 1:07:31.040 --> 1:07:38.520 Oh yeah, I have a confession to make in all 1:07:38.600 --> 1:07:43.320 my casual Joe below reading about Clovis hunters and fulsome 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:46.200 hunters I had never heard of what I'm holding in 1:07:46.320 --> 1:07:48.520 my hand until I was looking at that chart hanging 1:07:48.560 --> 1:07:54.600 at your office. Like then Meton sends me some of 1:07:54.680 --> 1:08:04.040 these these are out of Uh, these are replicas of 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:05.240 some pieces that came out. 1:08:05.160 --> 1:08:07.000 Of Ohio, I believe Sheridan Cave. 1:08:07.240 --> 1:08:11.200 Yeah, I'd never even heard of this. When I opened 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:12.920 the package up, I thought it was some kind of 1:08:13.000 --> 1:08:16.960 little point. But this is like a piece. This is 1:08:17.000 --> 1:08:20.320 a piece of a Clovis toolkit. That is, people debate 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:21.200 what the hell this was? 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:21.519 Right? 1:08:21.720 --> 1:08:25.040 Yeah, talk about that. Can you get a good on that? 1:08:25.320 --> 1:08:28.559 Phil You're getting it looks great? Uh, just to give 1:08:28.600 --> 1:08:32.679 it quick a little more analysis. It's there's this bevel 1:08:32.720 --> 1:08:37.600 cut into it and it's strided like it's caught like 1:08:37.680 --> 1:08:39.840 you wanted to just going out on a limb here, 1:08:39.960 --> 1:08:41.679 like you wanted to make it a little more grippy. 1:08:43.680 --> 1:08:45.000 All right, Michael. 1:08:46.120 --> 1:08:49.639 So these are bone rods, commonly called bone rods. They've 1:08:49.640 --> 1:08:51.519 been found in a lot of clovi including the Clovis 1:08:51.560 --> 1:08:54.000 Typesite has a really beautiful example of one of these. 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:56.800 I've only found one in my career, was that the 1:08:56.840 --> 1:08:59.200 powers to hematite. 1:08:59.280 --> 1:09:00.839 Corey, what kind of bones. 1:09:02.479 --> 1:09:05.040 I'm guessing it was a piece of cortical bone, like 1:09:05.120 --> 1:09:09.040 a long bone from a bison. Not exactly sure. I 1:09:09.120 --> 1:09:12.160 don't know what these are, but my assumption is that 1:09:12.240 --> 1:09:15.760 it has something to do with the weaponry system powers Too. 1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:19.639 This okre mine is, for whatever reason, just completely filled 1:09:20.200 --> 1:09:22.720 with paleo Indian weaponry. We found like one hundred and 1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:25.559 seventy points at this site set an okre mine, an 1:09:25.600 --> 1:09:29.200 ochre mine in Southeast Wyoming, and we found one of 1:09:29.280 --> 1:09:33.360 these associated with the Clovis fulsome layer at powers Too, 1:09:33.880 --> 1:09:37.400 which is also filled with projectile points and flakes and stuff. 1:09:38.080 --> 1:09:39.840 So my assumption is that it has something to do 1:09:39.920 --> 1:09:42.960 with the weaponry system. What that is. I don't think 1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:45.640 anybody has really ever satisfactorily explained that. 1:09:45.880 --> 1:09:48.920 When you say weaponry system, you mean it was linked 1:09:49.000 --> 1:09:51.200 to the Clovis point somehow, or. 1:09:51.360 --> 1:09:54.080 Perhaps using the hafting system or something like that. 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:56.800 Yeah, you could see this as a four cheft somehow, right, 1:09:57.160 --> 1:09:58.960 the Clovis point there and then some other kind of 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:00.000 wedge on the other side. 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:04.680 Yeah, a guy online figured it out. I was that 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:09.120 guy figures out a lot I saying, So I got 1:10:09.200 --> 1:10:11.800 to about different dudes debating it, right, and there's a 1:10:11.880 --> 1:10:17.439 dude saying that, like if you wedge that thing and 1:10:17.479 --> 1:10:19.759 when you're trying to I couldn't. He didn't have any visuals, 1:10:19.840 --> 1:10:22.320 but basically saying like he wedged it on the hafting 1:10:22.439 --> 1:10:26.640 process and then as you lash that piece it like titans. 1:10:27.920 --> 1:10:28.840 That was his take on it. 1:10:28.920 --> 1:10:32.679 It like it tightens the spear point. But he didn't 1:10:32.720 --> 1:10:34.120 have any pictures to explain what the hell he was 1:10:34.120 --> 1:10:37.200 talking about. But it's like, I had never heard of 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:37.559 that thing. 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:41.080 They're not common, you know. There's in nineteen thirty six 1:10:41.160 --> 1:10:43.120 in the Clovis site when they found the first mammoth 1:10:43.120 --> 1:10:44.920 remains in Clovis Points, they had one of these in 1:10:44.960 --> 1:10:48.000 the mammoth bone bed, but it's not common to find 1:10:48.040 --> 1:10:50.280 them in mammoth bum beds. That that might be the only. 1:10:50.160 --> 1:10:53.639 Case because it's like also I imagine, because it's organic 1:10:54.920 --> 1:10:56.759 and ship hauls it away or it rots. 1:10:57.920 --> 1:11:00.720 If you have bone preserved, these will be deserved if 1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.000 they were there and they were left there. But again, 1:11:03.200 --> 1:11:05.840 like nice functional implements, which these appear to be right, 1:11:05.880 --> 1:11:07.960 they don't appear to be broken. People tend not to 1:11:08.080 --> 1:11:10.439 leave these things behind. Pretty sure there were some of 1:11:10.479 --> 1:11:13.880 these in the Anziki. 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:16.360 Yeah, and then the East Winnachi site. There's several of 1:11:16.439 --> 1:11:19.200 these associated with, like, I don't know how many points 1:11:19.240 --> 1:11:21.719 are from there, a couple dozen Clovis points. It seems 1:11:21.720 --> 1:11:25.599 to be consistently associated with weaponry, though. The only other 1:11:25.800 --> 1:11:29.639 theory I've heard about these is dog sleds or something. 1:11:30.080 --> 1:11:33.479 That's That was Gramley's argument about East and I think 1:11:33.560 --> 1:11:37.160 those were bi beveled, so they didn't have a point 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:39.360 on one end. They had a bevel this way and 1:11:39.439 --> 1:11:42.320 a bevel an alternate bevel on the other side. And 1:11:42.479 --> 1:11:44.840 Gramley argued that they were lashed together to make it 1:11:45.600 --> 1:11:49.679 the runner on the heads. That's really silly idea. 1:11:50.040 --> 1:11:55.240 Come on, do you ever find evidence of clodest points 1:11:55.280 --> 1:11:58.479 being picked up by ancient humans, like five thousand years 1:11:58.520 --> 1:11:59.960 later and they find a use for them in all 1:12:00.000 --> 1:12:01.760 of a sudden, there's a clothes point in with like 1:12:02.080 --> 1:12:04.000 a woodland site somewhere. 1:12:04.120 --> 1:12:08.000 Yes, I know one example off the top of my head, 1:12:08.040 --> 1:12:11.200 and I'm pretty sure everybody cites this one example. I've 1:12:11.200 --> 1:12:13.519 actually never tracked down the citation to it, but I've 1:12:13.560 --> 1:12:16.160 heard over and over again my entire career that somebody 1:12:16.240 --> 1:12:17.559 found a fulsome point of Pueblo. 1:12:17.800 --> 1:12:19.320 Yes, yeah, that's what I mean. 1:12:20.240 --> 1:12:22.880 That's the one example of that like happening like. 1:12:22.920 --> 1:12:26.519 An Sazi what what so the so called honestas your 1:12:26.560 --> 1:12:31.200 ancient puebloans that some pueblo had one where some dude's like, 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:32.439 look at that, brought it home. 1:12:33.560 --> 1:12:37.400 M I think everyone's everyone's into old stuff, right, That's 1:12:37.439 --> 1:12:40.320 why I'm into archaeology. I think we have to assume 1:12:40.320 --> 1:12:42.000 people had a fascination for the past. 1:12:42.240 --> 1:12:45.320 Yeah, I bring home old shell casings. It wouldn't bring 1:12:45.400 --> 1:12:48.800 home a new shell casing from If I find a 1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:51.600 straight ball shellcasing that's got some holes rotten through it, 1:12:51.640 --> 1:12:54.880 I'm going to bring that sucker homered percent. Man, you 1:12:54.960 --> 1:12:56.880 got if I found one of my buddies, I'm not 1:12:56.920 --> 1:12:57.599 bringing it home. 1:12:58.080 --> 1:12:59.680 I got a spot in your garage where you just 1:12:59.720 --> 1:13:01.679 stack your old or your treasures. 1:13:02.280 --> 1:13:04.640 Look at there's a twenty seven nozzler case. It's got 1:13:04.760 --> 1:13:06.759 to be you know, we could be up to fifteen 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:07.240 years old. 1:13:07.400 --> 1:13:08.760 Yeah, I'm bringing that home. 1:13:09.640 --> 1:13:12.600 Steve, Like, like twenty minutes ago, you asked about the 1:13:12.680 --> 1:13:15.960 absence of evidence for like hunting all these megafaunas. Yeah, 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:17.840 can I say something about that? 1:13:18.439 --> 1:13:19.880 Say everything you want to say about that. 1:13:21.439 --> 1:13:23.960 So when you talk about like the giant beaver, right, 1:13:24.080 --> 1:13:26.479 those guys, my understanding is are living in the northeast, 1:13:26.880 --> 1:13:29.560 in the Midwest. In terms of what are evidence for 1:13:29.640 --> 1:13:31.720 Clovis subsistence in that part of the world, we have 1:13:31.840 --> 1:13:34.639 about two bones that happen to preservative fire and they're 1:13:34.680 --> 1:13:39.799 both caribou. Bottom line is there's this huge blank spot 1:13:40.280 --> 1:13:42.000 in what Clovist people were doing in that part of 1:13:42.040 --> 1:13:44.840 the country where that animal lives. We basically have no 1:13:45.080 --> 1:13:47.479 evidence for anything any subsistence. 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:49.200 At all because it's not suitable to preserve. 1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:51.800 Right, right, So is the absence of evidence of hunting 1:13:51.840 --> 1:13:55.040 of giant beaver meaningful? Probably not right. We can't really 1:13:55.080 --> 1:13:58.280 interpret it one way or another. And a lot about 1:13:58.320 --> 1:14:00.680 the Clovis record of finnel uses that way. Like if 1:14:00.720 --> 1:14:03.559 you say, well, there's no evidence for Clovis use of sloth, well, 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:05.439 would you expect to see it in a mammoth kill site? 1:14:06.200 --> 1:14:09.640 Probably not right, And that's what most of our sites are. 1:14:10.120 --> 1:14:12.839 So is the absence of sloth and mammoth kill sites interesting? 1:14:13.040 --> 1:14:16.760 Probably not. Now, if we go to the Aubrey site 1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:19.360 in Texas, this big Clovis campsite. They do have sloth 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:22.719 dermal oscacles, which are these little like pieces of bone 1:14:22.760 --> 1:14:25.400 embedded in the skin that armored these giant ground sloths. 1:14:26.840 --> 1:14:29.320 Is that evidence for Clovis hunting of ground sloth? A 1:14:29.360 --> 1:14:33.800 couple of derm oscles and a Clovis campsite. It's pretty ambiguous, right, 1:14:35.800 --> 1:14:38.559 so the record is really hard to interpret. I will 1:14:38.640 --> 1:14:43.080 say there is recently published a sloth kill from Argentina 1:14:43.360 --> 1:14:48.080 called Campo Laborde. It's late places seen big. I think megathereum. 1:14:48.120 --> 1:14:50.679 I'm not sure which sloth. So there is some evidence 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:53.400 for sloth use in South America. But just maybe to 1:14:53.560 --> 1:14:57.040 end this this big train of thought, the most damning 1:14:57.200 --> 1:15:03.080 evidence for human causation of the megaphonal extinctions to me 1:15:04.640 --> 1:15:06.439 is you didn't have to do archaeology if you just 1:15:06.479 --> 1:15:11.080 did paleontology around the world, everywhere that people went to, 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:14.880 and you you just looked for a big extinction event 1:15:15.680 --> 1:15:19.720 in the last eighty thousand years, and you find one 1:15:20.280 --> 1:15:23.200 in every case, in every land mass that marks human 1:15:23.280 --> 1:15:26.880 arrival percent And it's not just the North American thing, right, 1:15:26.920 --> 1:15:29.080 It's not just a South American thing. It's an Australian thing. 1:15:29.120 --> 1:15:31.439 It's a New Zealand thing. It's a Europe thing. It's 1:15:31.479 --> 1:15:34.600 an Asia thing. It's all the islands Hawaii, it's a 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:37.360 Polynesia thing. It's the Caribbean. They were a giant ground 1:15:37.360 --> 1:15:39.400 slaws in Caribbean that survived the places in a hall 1:15:39.439 --> 1:15:42.519 of same transition until six thousand years ago. 1:15:43.600 --> 1:15:45.840 That that, that's one of the biggest smoke and guns 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:50.080 in my view on the overkill hypothesis. We get Wrangle 1:15:50.160 --> 1:15:54.760 Island off Siberia. No one found it man and man 1:15:54.960 --> 1:15:58.200 stayed there till four thousand years ago. Yeah. 1:15:58.200 --> 1:16:04.920 I remember reading uh, Paul Martin's book Twilight of the Mammoths, 1:16:06.120 --> 1:16:08.479 and I don't I forget where it is in the book. 1:16:08.520 --> 1:16:10.880 It's either at the beginning or the end. But he 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:14.719 tracks the spread of humans around the globe and lists 1:16:15.439 --> 1:16:18.200 all the stuff that went missing at the exact same time, 1:16:18.920 --> 1:16:20.680 and he get through to the end of it. I 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:23.200 just remember reading that segment and just being like, God, 1:16:23.240 --> 1:16:23.960 it's almost too. 1:16:23.920 --> 1:16:27.000 Perfect, Like how did It's remarkable? 1:16:27.120 --> 1:16:27.320 Yeah? 1:16:27.400 --> 1:16:30.000 I mean like I put that book down and it 1:16:30.120 --> 1:16:33.400 was like you just watched a video on YouTube that's 1:16:33.479 --> 1:16:35.240 meant to convince you of something. 1:16:35.160 --> 1:16:35.280 You know. 1:16:35.360 --> 1:16:38.040 It was just like I don't nothing else makes sense 1:16:38.080 --> 1:16:39.840 to me. Now you know what else is great about it? 1:16:40.240 --> 1:16:45.200 As you say, what about Africa? Doesn't happen in Africa? 1:16:45.760 --> 1:16:47.760 And it's cause get like co evolution. 1:16:49.040 --> 1:16:49.080 Was. 1:16:49.320 --> 1:16:51.800 Yeah, there was no there was no sudden arrival. Yeah, 1:16:52.640 --> 1:16:54.439 the animals there had been like hey that little thing, 1:16:54.520 --> 1:16:56.679 you see something walking around two feet watch your ass? 1:16:57.600 --> 1:16:58.519 Like word got out. 1:16:59.360 --> 1:17:02.599 So what would you guys say then, if you're leaning 1:17:02.680 --> 1:17:06.439 towards human cause, what would you say to the people 1:17:06.520 --> 1:17:08.960 that are like, well, it was like the climate was changing, 1:17:09.080 --> 1:17:12.679 the environment was changing, Like these animals just couldn't adapt. 1:17:13.120 --> 1:17:16.439 The climate environment had been changing for millions of years 1:17:16.479 --> 1:17:18.799 prior to that. That'd be my response. 1:17:23.320 --> 1:17:26.519 You know, the North American and South American cases, they're 1:17:26.600 --> 1:17:29.680 especially tricky because it happens at this really wild time 1:17:29.760 --> 1:17:32.960 when we're coming out of the glaciation. Right, these massive 1:17:33.080 --> 1:17:37.400 mile mile thick sheets of ice are melting, back sea 1:17:37.479 --> 1:17:40.880 levels rising, all these ecological communities are reorganizing. You can 1:17:40.920 --> 1:17:44.640 imagine that could wreak havoc on animal populations, right, and 1:17:44.760 --> 1:17:47.080 at the same time, you bring in this highly effective 1:17:47.680 --> 1:17:50.840 cultural predator that these animals have no experience with, and 1:17:50.920 --> 1:17:53.840 it's the coincidence of all this stuff in time that 1:17:53.880 --> 1:17:56.280 has made it such like a difficult problem to answer, 1:17:56.320 --> 1:17:59.560 and it's why we're still debating about it. But I 1:17:59.560 --> 1:18:04.520 would say, tell me, tell me a climatic or ecological 1:18:04.600 --> 1:18:08.759 explanation that can drive an extinction event over two continents 1:18:08.800 --> 1:18:11.040 from the Arctic to the tropics and back to the 1:18:11.120 --> 1:18:14.600 sub arctic in South America, from the arid west to 1:18:14.680 --> 1:18:18.880 the humid east. What climate change can do that? What 1:18:19.080 --> 1:18:21.840 is the actual mechanism that could drive an extinction event 1:18:21.960 --> 1:18:23.960 so severe? And I don't know of one. 1:18:24.640 --> 1:18:27.519 And there's the other thing is that as dramatic as 1:18:27.560 --> 1:18:32.120 that seemed, these species had survived other cycles. 1:18:31.760 --> 1:18:33.800 Like that, dozens of them. 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:37.240 I mean, there were there were interglacial periods where sea 1:18:37.360 --> 1:18:39.160 levels were hot, like right now you hear a lot 1:18:39.200 --> 1:18:42.040 about rising sea levels. There were there were periods between 1:18:42.120 --> 1:18:45.479 glaciations during the Ice Age when like the Pedestal, when 1:18:45.960 --> 1:18:48.800 the Statue of Liberty would be standing in water, like 1:18:48.880 --> 1:18:51.559 the Pedestal would be underwater during some of these periods, 1:18:51.920 --> 1:18:56.559 and the ship didn't go extinct then yep, yeah, And that. 1:18:57.080 --> 1:19:00.559 Was that was the most recent interglacial we call Stage 1:19:00.600 --> 1:19:02.519 five E one hundred and twenty thousand years ago was 1:19:02.600 --> 1:19:09.240 warmer than today. There are hippos living in England, for example. Yeah, yeah, 1:19:09.360 --> 1:19:12.400 and that was one of many previous interglacials. It happened 1:19:12.400 --> 1:19:14.280 over and over and over and over again. The ice 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:16.400 sheets oscillated back and forth and back and forth, and 1:19:16.479 --> 1:19:19.760 there are ecological transitions with all these These animals made 1:19:19.800 --> 1:19:22.840 it through, that's right, And tell people show up and 1:19:22.920 --> 1:19:24.960 if we look at the last dates and these animals, 1:19:25.960 --> 1:19:27.640 at least the ones that we have good samples for, 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:31.479 they all go extinct within three hundred years of Clovis arrival, 1:19:32.160 --> 1:19:37.760 except for caribou. Caribou make it through, bison making moose 1:19:37.840 --> 1:19:39.720 make it through, el Caa make it through. We can 1:19:39.760 --> 1:19:42.080 talk about why if you want to talk about that. Why. 1:19:44.800 --> 1:19:47.800 So I think there's a single unifying explanation for all 1:19:47.880 --> 1:19:50.960 large mammals survival that even applies to sub Saharan Africa 1:19:51.000 --> 1:19:55.120 and Southeast Asia, which is that large animals survive in 1:19:55.200 --> 1:19:58.120 places where people can't reach the fishing populations in cities 1:19:58.160 --> 1:20:02.040 to drive them to extinction. Okay, so let's just take 1:20:02.080 --> 1:20:05.240 the case of bison, right, Bison survived, but actually bison 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:07.559 went extinct over most of their range at the end 1:20:07.600 --> 1:20:09.439 of the place to see and they live coast to coast. 1:20:10.160 --> 1:20:12.880 You find bison and the rivers in Florida, you find 1:20:12.920 --> 1:20:15.080 them at the Olympic Peninsula of Washington, you find them 1:20:15.120 --> 1:20:20.120 in Mexico. Rocha Libreae full of bison. Right today, bison 1:20:20.479 --> 1:20:22.400 pretty much limited to the Mid Continent, or at least 1:20:22.560 --> 1:20:28.000 historically they were. Why is that, Well, when people don't 1:20:28.120 --> 1:20:30.439 have other foods to fall back on. Basically, the only 1:20:30.479 --> 1:20:33.560 way a predator can drive a prey to extinction is 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:35.680 if they have another food to fall back on. This 1:20:35.840 --> 1:20:39.040 is why a lynx can't drive snowshoe hair to extinction, 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:41.920 right because as soon as they that hair population goes down, 1:20:42.160 --> 1:20:44.439 the lynx population goes down with them, and the hair 1:20:44.560 --> 1:20:46.160 rebounds and the lynx rebound. 1:20:46.280 --> 1:20:47.559 That's a good point, man, Yeah. 1:20:47.640 --> 1:20:50.360 Right, So it's hard for a predator to drive its 1:20:50.360 --> 1:20:52.040 prey to extinction. It can only do that if it 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:55.320 can switch to something else. Right. So, what I would 1:20:55.400 --> 1:20:57.519 argue if we're talking about bison is that in the 1:20:57.560 --> 1:21:00.280 Great Plains, there really weren't good switching options for people 1:21:00.280 --> 1:21:02.439 who lived in this part of the world that could 1:21:02.479 --> 1:21:05.600 really sustain, Like you couldn't drive bison to extinction and 1:21:05.680 --> 1:21:10.120 then switch and basically make your entire economy based on 1:21:10.240 --> 1:21:14.479 pronghorn or something else. And that's also I think the 1:21:14.560 --> 1:21:18.400 general story that explains like the survival of animals in 1:21:18.400 --> 1:21:22.120 the hierarchic Let's say in you know, muskox and caribou. 1:21:22.600 --> 1:21:26.000 There's no real switching options there, right, So if you 1:21:26.080 --> 1:21:29.400 really slam those populations, your population gets slammed right behind them. 1:21:30.160 --> 1:21:32.840 If we're going to talk about Southeast Asia, we're talking 1:21:32.840 --> 1:21:36.200 about dense tropical forests that there are very few people 1:21:36.280 --> 1:21:38.880 in until very recently. If we're talking about sub Saharan Africa, 1:21:38.920 --> 1:21:43.240 we're talking about a massive, absolutely massive semi arid desert 1:21:43.800 --> 1:21:45.840 that people have been living in in very very low 1:21:45.920 --> 1:21:49.360 population densities for a long time. You didn't really have 1:21:49.479 --> 1:21:52.160 pastoralists people hurting until the last two thousand years, and 1:21:52.200 --> 1:21:54.639 that's really when those animals started getting slammed in Africa. 1:21:56.160 --> 1:21:58.080 So in general, I would say, you know, you have 1:21:58.200 --> 1:22:01.240 these large mammals, cases of large mammals survival and environments 1:22:01.240 --> 1:22:04.360 where people simply couldn't reach sufficient densities to drive them 1:22:04.360 --> 1:22:04.879 to extinction. 1:22:05.600 --> 1:22:09.519 Mhmm. You know what comes out of like contemporary biology 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:11.920 that what you're talking about makes me think of is 1:22:12.840 --> 1:22:16.160 if you look at the Southern caribou herds. So we 1:22:16.280 --> 1:22:18.160 used to have cariboo. I mean when I say used to, 1:22:18.240 --> 1:22:21.200 I mean even in the nineteen hundreds, right, Yeah, you 1:22:21.720 --> 1:22:26.040 know in nineteen twenty, nineteen thirty, you had I don't 1:22:26.040 --> 1:22:29.759 want to say decent numbers, but you had caribou in Washington, 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:33.879 you had caribou and the Idaho Panhandle. You had caribou 1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:35.200 in Montana. 1:22:35.000 --> 1:22:36.160 Minnesota, and Maine. 1:22:38.439 --> 1:22:40.720 And I've heard biologist when talking about like, well, what 1:22:41.000 --> 1:22:47.840 was different? Is it be as human landscape development and 1:22:47.920 --> 1:22:54.960 landscape changes happened, it allowed whitetail deer and moose from 1:22:55.040 --> 1:22:58.760 logging practices and road building. It allowed whitetail deer and 1:22:58.880 --> 1:23:02.080 moose to move into these areas. And it made it 1:23:02.280 --> 1:23:05.080 that wolves could sustain themselves because in these areas they 1:23:05.120 --> 1:23:07.360 had like very limited number of caribou and there wasn't 1:23:07.400 --> 1:23:09.559 like a wolf predation problem. And it was what you're 1:23:09.560 --> 1:23:12.479 talking about, there's nothing for them to fall back on. 1:23:12.640 --> 1:23:15.240 So as caribou numbers would dwindle, wolf pressure would just 1:23:15.320 --> 1:23:20.000 go away. But now wolves don't move out because they're like, 1:23:20.040 --> 1:23:22.120 they're still picking away on white tailed deer, they're still 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:25.680 picking away on moose, and any caribou that turns up, 1:23:25.680 --> 1:23:27.719 they're going to hammer it because they're always present. 1:23:28.720 --> 1:23:29.960 Yeah, that's super interesting. 1:23:30.000 --> 1:23:31.600 It's exactly what I'm talking about. You have to have 1:23:31.680 --> 1:23:35.840 something to fall back on, yep, right, otherwise you get 1:23:35.880 --> 1:23:37.280 stuck in that predator prey cycle. 1:23:37.600 --> 1:23:37.840 Yeah. 1:23:38.200 --> 1:23:41.919 And I really think you can explain large mammals survival 1:23:42.000 --> 1:23:44.479 across the globe with that one principle. I mean, you 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:46.360 guys live in a place. When we live in a 1:23:46.400 --> 1:23:50.160 place where large mammal we're famous for large mammals, right, 1:23:50.560 --> 1:23:55.040 We've got bison and elk and moose, prong horn deer. 1:23:55.600 --> 1:23:58.280 Why are these spaces famous for large animals. Well, because 1:23:58.280 --> 1:24:01.120 it's hardly anybody who lives here. That's that's really always 1:24:01.200 --> 1:24:02.760 been the case in this part of the world, the 1:24:02.840 --> 1:24:06.080 Rocky Mountains, because it's high, it's dry, it's a hard 1:24:06.120 --> 1:24:08.040 place for people to make a living, and it's and 1:24:08.120 --> 1:24:10.679 it's those places that these large animals can really thrive 1:24:10.720 --> 1:24:14.320 because the predation pressure from humans is really is really low. 1:24:14.640 --> 1:24:18.680 Yeah, that's an interesting points you look at like Appalachi 1:24:18.760 --> 1:24:23.839 or whatever. They had bison, they had elk, they had wolves, 1:24:24.360 --> 1:24:27.599 they had cougars, and for a long time they didn't. 1:24:28.200 --> 1:24:30.439 And then you have these like spots, like you know, 1:24:31.080 --> 1:24:33.680 the Northern Rockies, which was able to hang onto like 1:24:33.680 --> 1:24:36.559 a relatively intact ecosystem, and you go up to Alaska 1:24:36.560 --> 1:24:38.320 and they were able to hang on to like their 1:24:38.400 --> 1:24:44.040 their like suite of megafauna survive the initial human Pulse's 1:24:44.080 --> 1:24:44.479 good theory. 1:24:44.520 --> 1:24:44.840 I like that. 1:24:46.000 --> 1:24:48.200 What percentage of people in your field believe in the 1:24:48.240 --> 1:24:52.400 blitzkrieg hypothesis and how has that changed during your career? 1:24:53.439 --> 1:24:58.640 So I'd like to I wish we could answer this independently, 1:24:58.880 --> 1:25:00.519 So I'd love to hear what has to say. 1:25:03.280 --> 1:25:04.519 You can both write down a number. 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:08.000 The first thing I'll say is that when I was 1:25:08.040 --> 1:25:10.240 in graduate school, Paul Martin, who was the real champion 1:25:10.280 --> 1:25:12.000 of that, was a friend of mine. He was retired. 1:25:12.040 --> 1:25:14.400 He was really nice to me, and I go and 1:25:14.439 --> 1:25:16.080 I'd go up to his office and I'd argue with 1:25:16.160 --> 1:25:17.840 him all the time about this. I didn't believe in 1:25:17.920 --> 1:25:20.599 it at all until I left and did some science, 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:22.400 and I ultimately decided Paul was right. 1:25:22.880 --> 1:25:24.280 It wasn't because he was nice to you. 1:25:26.320 --> 1:25:28.840 What I wrote a review on that Twilight of the 1:25:28.880 --> 1:25:31.519 Mammoth for Dan's class. I remember, you know, you'd write 1:25:31.520 --> 1:25:33.960 the book reviews and he'd write a couple of sentences 1:25:34.040 --> 1:25:36.840 at the bottom and the first I'll always remember this, 1:25:36.960 --> 1:25:39.679 The first thing he wrote on there was Paul Martin 1:25:39.800 --> 1:25:41.160 was a delightful dinner companion. 1:25:41.280 --> 1:25:48.280 Enough, he was a great guy. I'm going to answer. 1:25:48.640 --> 1:25:52.080 I'm going to say somewhere between one and two percent 1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:55.439 and believe this. Oh wow, what would you say, Spencer? 1:25:55.760 --> 1:25:58.400 No, yeah, I mean that's it. 1:25:58.640 --> 1:26:01.200 You're talking to it in dangerous She's here, Steve right 1:26:01.240 --> 1:26:01.759 in the studio. 1:26:01.960 --> 1:26:03.040 So the numbers going down. 1:26:03.439 --> 1:26:04.000 I think. 1:26:06.240 --> 1:26:08.799 You know. The point you raised of where's the evidence? 1:26:09.040 --> 1:26:11.000 Like if people drove horse to extinction, why do you 1:26:11.080 --> 1:26:14.920 have two horse kill sites? Is an argument that really 1:26:15.000 --> 1:26:18.160 resonates with a lot of people. Uh huh, they don't really. 1:26:18.520 --> 1:26:20.320 I would say a lot of people haven't thought about 1:26:20.320 --> 1:26:22.200 the nature of the sample and the sample size that 1:26:22.280 --> 1:26:24.560 we have. Yeah, and that maybe that's actually quite a 1:26:24.600 --> 1:26:26.320 bit of evidence for horse hunting. 1:26:26.479 --> 1:26:29.439 But yeah, I'll say, like I mean to start with, 1:26:29.680 --> 1:26:33.240 like very a very low percentage of archaeologists actually study 1:26:33.320 --> 1:26:36.240 this stuff, right, like Paley Indians. There's a very small 1:26:36.320 --> 1:26:39.960 segment of archaeology alongside all the complex of people and 1:26:40.080 --> 1:26:42.080 just the people that do everything else. So like, for instance, 1:26:42.120 --> 1:26:44.400 in my experience, I didn't really think about this stuff 1:26:44.400 --> 1:26:47.040 at all until I went to Colorado State University for 1:26:47.120 --> 1:26:50.439 my master's and my advisor there, Jason Lebel, was invested 1:26:50.479 --> 1:26:52.600 in Paley Indian stuff and kind of trained me up 1:26:52.680 --> 1:26:55.000 on that. But even then I was like, you know, 1:26:55.080 --> 1:26:57.880 that sounds good, like Monte Verde looks solid. All these 1:26:57.960 --> 1:26:59.680 pre Clovists. We need to be going out there and 1:26:59.680 --> 1:27:03.200 digging deeper, I guess, And it really wasn't until Todd 1:27:03.240 --> 1:27:08.040 brainwashed me at Wyoming. But it is true that when 1:27:08.080 --> 1:27:10.560 you actually buckle down and start thinking critically about this 1:27:10.640 --> 1:27:13.640 stuff and really invest your intellectual energy into understanding it, 1:27:14.520 --> 1:27:17.120 it just kind of comes into focus. I mean, it's 1:27:17.160 --> 1:27:19.720 really obvious to me that Clovis was basically the first 1:27:19.760 --> 1:27:23.160 people when they drove the Negafont to extinction. But I 1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:25.400 don't think that that's a very popular view for a 1:27:25.479 --> 1:27:27.679 number of reasons. I mean, one, it's just a small 1:27:27.720 --> 1:27:29.880 percentage of archaeologists that are invested in this stuff. And 1:27:30.200 --> 1:27:34.360 then among those that do. I just got to say, like, 1:27:35.360 --> 1:27:39.599 archaeology prioritizes discovery and newness, right, and we can't really 1:27:39.720 --> 1:27:40.120 escape that. 1:27:40.439 --> 1:27:40.640 I do. 1:27:40.840 --> 1:27:43.920 I love discovering stuff, and so everyone's constantly wanting to 1:27:43.960 --> 1:27:45.360 push it back. And I think there's a little bit 1:27:45.400 --> 1:27:48.120 of wishful thinking there, like did we really find the oldest? 1:27:48.160 --> 1:27:50.080 It's kind of a bummer, right, It's like an existential 1:27:50.120 --> 1:27:52.160 crisis for people that have invested a lot of their 1:27:52.720 --> 1:27:56.320 time and energy into finding the oldest thing to be like, 1:27:56.400 --> 1:27:59.439 well we did it. Now what it's a bit of 1:27:59.520 --> 1:28:01.679 a it's a bit of a bumber to some folks. 1:28:01.720 --> 1:28:05.400 I think, now, if the number is one or two 1:28:05.479 --> 1:28:11.360 percent of that ninety eight ninety nine percent, how divided 1:28:11.960 --> 1:28:13.880 is that block of thinking? 1:28:14.840 --> 1:28:17.040 Like are they in terms of the cause? Yeah? 1:28:17.200 --> 1:28:21.519 Like like are there could you subdivide that quickly into 1:28:21.560 --> 1:28:26.040 a couple of different camps or well, I'm just curious about. 1:28:25.800 --> 1:28:28.040 The I don't think so. I mean, I think Spencer's 1:28:28.120 --> 1:28:30.080 right that, like most people aren't invested in this. Like 1:28:30.160 --> 1:28:32.760 if you if you're a Maya archaeologist studying you know, 1:28:32.880 --> 1:28:38.360 pyramids and things in the Guatemalan jungle, your experience with overkills. 1:28:38.439 --> 1:28:40.040 You know what you learned as a graduate student, then 1:28:40.120 --> 1:28:42.280 what you're teaching your intro archaeology class. 1:28:42.360 --> 1:28:44.200 Right, Yeah, I. 1:28:44.200 --> 1:28:46.560 Would guess that most of those people believe there's some 1:28:46.680 --> 1:28:50.120 sort of climatic and ecological explanation. The other contenders, by 1:28:50.120 --> 1:28:51.920 the way, is something called hyper disease. Have you heard 1:28:51.920 --> 1:28:53.920 about this? Yeah? 1:28:54.439 --> 1:28:57.439 What about what about that? 1:28:57.560 --> 1:29:00.400 It was just like a combination of factors that Yeah, 1:29:00.520 --> 1:29:02.519 that's all the time. 1:29:02.600 --> 1:29:04.800 It's a really good point, right, Like these are not 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:07.519 what we call mutually exclusive. They're all they all could 1:29:07.880 --> 1:29:11.200 be operating simultaneously. And and there's a fourth. 1:29:12.240 --> 1:29:14.679 Who's that dude that's real into those little micro blasts 1:29:14.800 --> 1:29:16.280 or whatever. He's micro glass. 1:29:16.840 --> 1:29:18.800 Richard Firestone was the original guy. 1:29:18.960 --> 1:29:20.560 You know, it's funny. I did a tour of the 1:29:20.600 --> 1:29:25.160 Lindenmeyer site, and the day I was at Lindenmeyer, linden 1:29:25.200 --> 1:29:27.880 Meyer's big, folesome site. I'm just telling the audience here 1:29:28.320 --> 1:29:29.880 it's kind of cool because it's right on there. It's 1:29:30.000 --> 1:29:33.720 it's north it's between Denver Fort Collins nor is it 1:29:33.800 --> 1:29:39.200 North Fork cons And it's a huge they argue a 1:29:39.520 --> 1:29:43.240 huge fulsome winter camp site, and some people argue that 1:29:43.360 --> 1:29:47.600 it's this sounds a little out there because of the 1:29:48.160 --> 1:29:53.840 rock faces on the mountains, it's easy to explain where 1:29:53.880 --> 1:29:57.560 it is, and that you could have had that this 1:29:57.760 --> 1:30:00.640 might have been a place where fullsome hunters from all 1:30:00.680 --> 1:30:03.439 across the Great Plains. You could say, no, no, no, 1:30:03.840 --> 1:30:07.160 just follow you'll know, look for the big white slash 1:30:07.360 --> 1:30:10.760 on the peak and if you've never been there, that's 1:30:10.800 --> 1:30:13.320 where we'll be. Sounds fantastful. 1:30:13.320 --> 1:30:14.760 So the guy that came up with that idea, I 1:30:14.840 --> 1:30:18.080 think is what was my master's advisor, Jason LaBelle. I 1:30:18.200 --> 1:30:21.760 believe him. The big exposure of White River group there, 1:30:21.800 --> 1:30:25.120 it's visible for miles in every direction. And yeah, it's 1:30:25.200 --> 1:30:27.400 right at the margin of the you know the high 1:30:27.400 --> 1:30:29.320 planes in the Colorada Piedmont. It's kind of at this 1:30:29.400 --> 1:30:32.360 eco tone. It makes it all makes sense to me. 1:30:32.439 --> 1:30:35.080 It's like it's the biggest it's the biggest folsome site 1:30:35.160 --> 1:30:35.639 that exists. 1:30:36.120 --> 1:30:39.479 Capital When I was there, there was a dude because 1:30:39.479 --> 1:30:42.120 they've done all this stratigraphy there, so they've done a 1:30:42.160 --> 1:30:43.840 lot of dating on stuff, and there was a guy 1:30:43.920 --> 1:30:46.439 there collecting those little things. He's looking forward to prove 1:30:46.520 --> 1:30:50.000 that it was like that the place to scene extinctions 1:30:50.800 --> 1:30:55.920 were some kind of bombardment of comets. Comets killed them all. 1:30:57.920 --> 1:31:01.040 The list What god, I did a study of that. 1:31:01.320 --> 1:31:03.040 Okay, tell me tell people about that idea. 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:08.080 Oh, go ahead, well where yeah comments? 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:10.840 Okay, then we can get into the Brody's idea about 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:12.479 a bunch of shit was happening all at once. 1:31:12.800 --> 1:31:14.400 I think it was the I think it was two 1:31:14.400 --> 1:31:16.600 thousand and seven. This paper was published in what we 1:31:16.720 --> 1:31:22.519 call pen ASS Proceedings sounds like proceedings in the National 1:31:22.600 --> 1:31:28.160 Academy of Sciences PNASS, where they they had they had 1:31:28.320 --> 1:31:32.960 taken these collected sediments from a bunch of terminal places, 1:31:33.000 --> 1:31:35.240 the end of the ice age sites, and they would 1:31:35.240 --> 1:31:38.000 take these sediment columns. So they just collect sediments, you know, 1:31:38.120 --> 1:31:40.560 in very fine intervals through sort of the place to 1:31:40.600 --> 1:31:41.679 see Holocene transition. 1:31:41.880 --> 1:31:42.640 What year was this going on? 1:31:43.240 --> 1:31:44.439 Was published in two thousand and seven. 1:31:44.520 --> 1:31:47.479 See that's when I was there two thousand and six, 1:31:47.520 --> 1:31:49.519 two I was working on I was there around two 1:31:49.520 --> 1:31:50.760 thousand and five, two thousand and six. 1:31:52.560 --> 1:31:58.560 So they found consistently at a certain time point I 1:31:58.600 --> 1:32:01.160 want to say, twelve thousand and seven hundred years before 1:32:01.200 --> 1:32:05.320 present approximately, they claim to find high concentrations of weird things. 1:32:06.400 --> 1:32:10.680 Those things included little tiny metallic spheres. They call them 1:32:10.760 --> 1:32:15.040 titano magnetites. It's like iron oxides with titanium, little tiny 1:32:15.080 --> 1:32:18.479 spheres like the diameter of your hair. They said they 1:32:18.520 --> 1:32:21.400 had high concentrations of magnetic particles, so they would literally 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:24.479 like put this sediment in water and then run a 1:32:24.640 --> 1:32:27.160 super strong magnet through it, collect the magnetic particles and 1:32:27.200 --> 1:32:29.720 count them up through these sediment columns. They say they'd 1:32:29.760 --> 1:32:33.360 peak right at this this horizon. They did the same 1:32:33.439 --> 1:32:36.000 thing for what are called platinum group elements like iridium 1:32:36.200 --> 1:32:38.920 that's used to identify the extinction of the dinosaurs. When 1:32:38.960 --> 1:32:42.599 that meteorite hit and there's this high iridium concentration, all 1:32:42.680 --> 1:32:46.760 this weird stuff, and all of us, a lot of 1:32:46.840 --> 1:32:49.000 us who have been digging sites like this and digging 1:32:49.040 --> 1:32:51.479 through sediments of this age, were like, Oh my god, 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:54.320 it's all this weird extraterrestrial stuff that we had never 1:32:54.360 --> 1:32:56.040 seen before. We'd been digging through it our whole life. 1:32:56.080 --> 1:32:59.320 I just wanted to just see it myself. And I 1:32:59.439 --> 1:33:00.800 was working on the site at the time, and I 1:33:00.800 --> 1:33:02.400 had friends who were working on sites where we could 1:33:02.400 --> 1:33:05.519 collect these samples and just replicate do what they did, 1:33:05.600 --> 1:33:08.000 and replicate their analyzes, and we failed to replicate any 1:33:08.040 --> 1:33:12.719 of them. We didn't find high concentrations of microspherreals, magnetic particles, 1:33:12.800 --> 1:33:15.960 or platinum group elements. Completely failed. 1:33:16.080 --> 1:33:19.960 For what that's worth, Where does that idea stand right now? 1:33:20.080 --> 1:33:21.639 Is it fashionable in your community? 1:33:22.600 --> 1:33:26.240 No? No, it's complete. It's funny. You know. We thought 1:33:26.680 --> 1:33:29.160 that their early kind of pushback against it would make 1:33:29.200 --> 1:33:32.200 it go away. It it didn't. They're still publishing papers 1:33:32.240 --> 1:33:34.439 and support of it. And I would say the vast 1:33:34.479 --> 1:33:38.519 majority of people in geology and archaeology don't take it seriously. 1:33:39.600 --> 1:33:43.080 I mean, a massive extraterrestrial impact that drives an extinction 1:33:43.200 --> 1:33:46.040 over two continents doesn't leave like a whisper of dust. 1:33:46.600 --> 1:33:50.400 There ought to be like massive geologic evidence for craters 1:33:50.520 --> 1:33:53.479 and tsunamis and fires, and it's just not there. 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:58.760 If it's two percent right now, believe in Blitzkreek, what 1:33:58.880 --> 1:34:01.120 was it twenty years ago? What do you think it'll 1:34:01.160 --> 1:34:02.040 be twenty years from now. 1:34:02.439 --> 1:34:03.040 That's a good. 1:34:04.600 --> 1:34:05.599 It's a really good question. 1:34:06.120 --> 1:34:08.400 When I break down these these arguments and you kind 1:34:08.400 --> 1:34:10.000 of look at the timing, I would say that we're 1:34:10.040 --> 1:34:14.000 like in a post a post Clovis first world longer 1:34:14.040 --> 1:34:15.880 than we were ever in a Clovis first world. At 1:34:15.920 --> 1:34:19.240 this point, the Clovis First paradigm was basically like let's 1:34:19.240 --> 1:34:22.040 say nineteen seventy three with Paul Martin's paper that was. 1:34:22.040 --> 1:34:25.200 The height up to, like a pinnacle up to basically. 1:34:24.960 --> 1:34:29.400 Like nineteen ninety seven when Monte Verde became accepted as 1:34:29.520 --> 1:34:31.320 a pre Clovis site, that was kind of like the 1:34:31.400 --> 1:34:35.000 Clovis First era. Ever since monte Verde came out, it's 1:34:35.040 --> 1:34:38.599 basically just been gaining more acceptance that there was stuff 1:34:38.760 --> 1:34:39.599 before Clovis. 1:34:40.200 --> 1:34:41.679 So guys aren't a endangered species. 1:34:42.120 --> 1:34:44.679 You're like the guys at the record store saying there's 1:34:44.760 --> 1:34:46.000 no good music anymore. 1:34:46.400 --> 1:34:50.559 We're are habitat fragmented. There's like a relic population in Kansas, 1:34:50.680 --> 1:34:51.439 some in Alaska. 1:34:51.880 --> 1:34:56.920 I have this of maybe schizophrenic perspective about it, Like 1:34:57.120 --> 1:34:59.800 sometimes I look at the record and I kind of 1:34:59.800 --> 1:35:02.479 feel like Neo in the matrix, like I can see 1:35:02.800 --> 1:35:04.760 something that nobody else can see, like, oh my god, 1:35:04.840 --> 1:35:08.320 it's so obvious that Clovis is first. And then half 1:35:08.360 --> 1:35:10.400 the time I feel like a guy with a tenfoil hat, 1:35:12.640 --> 1:35:15.439 like believing in crazy conspiracies, like why the hell can 1:35:15.520 --> 1:35:16.679 I see what everybody else sees? 1:35:17.600 --> 1:35:20.519 What would need to happen you convince everyone else to 1:35:20.680 --> 1:35:21.160 agree with you. 1:35:22.400 --> 1:35:25.519 Oh no, that'll never happen. I mean archaeology, the record 1:35:25.600 --> 1:35:27.479 is too crappy. We all look at the same evidence 1:35:27.520 --> 1:35:30.280 and interpret it like completely differently. It's pretty amazing. That way, 1:35:30.479 --> 1:35:31.880 we're never gonna get consensus. 1:35:32.680 --> 1:35:34.439 There's a thing that could happen that would work the 1:35:34.479 --> 1:35:35.599 other way for sure. 1:35:35.760 --> 1:35:36.120 Oh yeah. 1:35:36.160 --> 1:35:37.519 The thing that could happen work that a way is 1:35:37.600 --> 1:35:42.040 someone finds a bulletproof seventeen thousand year old site. Yeah bulletproof, Yeah, yeah, 1:35:42.320 --> 1:35:43.680 they sure absolutely. 1:35:44.040 --> 1:35:46.240 I would love for that to happen. Honestly, it would 1:35:46.240 --> 1:35:48.479 be great to open up this whole other world and 1:35:48.560 --> 1:35:51.240 we knew nothing about a whole other record to study. 1:35:51.280 --> 1:35:52.720 I just I don't think that's happened yet. 1:35:52.960 --> 1:35:55.479 You know, if I had to crystal ball it now, 1:35:55.479 --> 1:35:57.839 I always put it like this, just to make a graphic, 1:35:58.160 --> 1:36:01.519 like God has a gun to your head and he 1:36:01.560 --> 1:36:04.759 says what happened to the megafauna? And he knows he's ominiscient, 1:36:07.520 --> 1:36:09.479 and you have to guess right or else you die. 1:36:10.400 --> 1:36:12.479 So the So the screws are to you, there's no 1:36:12.640 --> 1:36:17.040 room for playing games. I would say, in that moment, 1:36:17.200 --> 1:36:21.679 my life's on the line, right, I would say, something 1:36:21.840 --> 1:36:28.360 was going on where there was turmoil, numbers were depressed, 1:36:29.320 --> 1:36:34.360 there was some upheaval, and into this upheaval came humans 1:36:34.720 --> 1:36:39.160 and and uh and and tipped it, tipped it to extinction. 1:36:40.240 --> 1:36:45.880 But something was going on where it wasn't like peak. Yeah, 1:36:46.160 --> 1:36:53.400 and then but maybe it would be like forsake me, sure, 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:56.080 you know, but I'm saying if I had to make 1:36:56.120 --> 1:36:56.840 a life or death. 1:36:57.360 --> 1:36:59.639 So vans Haynes made that argument, and he had good 1:37:00.360 --> 1:37:03.240 He worked on these sites in the San Patrio rebellion, Arizona, 1:37:03.360 --> 1:37:06.280 these beautiful Clovi sites, really well preserved surfaces, and he 1:37:06.360 --> 1:37:09.040 thought there's really clear evidence that when people were there 1:37:09.080 --> 1:37:11.880 at Murray Springs and Laner and Blackwater draw that there 1:37:11.960 --> 1:37:15.519 was a drought and that these these mammoth populations were depressed. 1:37:15.520 --> 1:37:17.760 They're kind of stuck to these water holes and people 1:37:17.800 --> 1:37:21.920 were just basically the coupd of gra And it's a 1:37:22.080 --> 1:37:24.480 it's a it's a really good argument for the Southwest. 1:37:25.360 --> 1:37:29.200 But we're talking about the Southwest into massive continents, right, 1:37:30.120 --> 1:37:31.640 So again, if we're going to have some kind of 1:37:31.680 --> 1:37:35.320 ecological upheaval that spans two continents from the Amazon to 1:37:35.400 --> 1:37:37.920 the East Coast, what is it. 1:37:38.640 --> 1:37:40.679 I also feel like we should We haven't talked about 1:37:40.720 --> 1:37:41.400 Alaska yet. 1:37:41.880 --> 1:37:43.519 Oh him, use some Alaska stuff, man. 1:37:43.600 --> 1:37:46.679 So like there are pre Clovia sites in the Western Hemisphere, 1:37:47.439 --> 1:37:48.160 they're in Alaska. 1:37:48.360 --> 1:37:49.280 That's what it makes sense. 1:37:50.280 --> 1:37:55.200 There's clear evidence of human occupations, clear camp sites about 1:37:55.240 --> 1:37:59.880 fourteen years old. They contained mammoth remains, they contained these 1:38:00.000 --> 1:38:04.120 little microblades, seemingly among the first technologies that people brought 1:38:04.160 --> 1:38:05.200 here from Northeast Asia. 1:38:05.360 --> 1:38:07.439 You see the same technology in Northeast Asia. 1:38:07.720 --> 1:38:10.880 Yeah, it's exactly what you'd expect for the first people 1:38:11.280 --> 1:38:14.639 in the Western Hemisphere. They're carrying Asian technology and living 1:38:14.920 --> 1:38:15.920 in Alaska. 1:38:15.800 --> 1:38:17.680 And exactly when you'd expect to sam too. 1:38:18.560 --> 1:38:21.519 And that's a good point, man, And it coincides with 1:38:21.920 --> 1:38:25.280 what we did a study back in twenty fifteen looking 1:38:25.360 --> 1:38:30.880 at when megafaunal populations decline between Alaska, United States south 1:38:30.920 --> 1:38:34.840 of the ice sheets in South America, basically slightly before 1:38:35.040 --> 1:38:39.040 we find archaeological evidence for human occupation in Alaska, megafauna 1:38:39.120 --> 1:38:43.040 starts to decline to extinction. And that's important because when 1:38:43.120 --> 1:38:45.320 you look at the archaeological survey in Alaska that's been 1:38:45.400 --> 1:38:47.720 done compared to that that's been done south of the 1:38:47.760 --> 1:38:52.200 ice sheets, it's very slim. There's like two highways and 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:55.519 a few little patches of archaeological research and lo and behold. 1:38:55.560 --> 1:38:58.880 Everywhere people look in Alaska they find pre club A sites, 1:38:58.920 --> 1:39:01.200 especially in this place called then in a valley and 1:39:01.360 --> 1:39:04.360 outside of Fairbanks, just a lot of pre Clovius evidence there. 1:39:04.360 --> 1:39:06.160 And we haven't really looked that hard in Alaska. It's 1:39:06.160 --> 1:39:09.360 super difficult place to do archaeology, but we found pre 1:39:09.439 --> 1:39:12.720 Clovid sites immediately, despite the one hundred and fifty years 1:39:12.760 --> 1:39:15.400 of research we've done south of the ice sheets very little. 1:39:15.680 --> 1:39:16.360 And they're normal. 1:39:16.720 --> 1:39:17.400 Yeah, and they're normal. 1:39:18.600 --> 1:39:21.639 It's not weird shit. It's like chipstone around hearth features, 1:39:21.720 --> 1:39:24.599 butchered animal bones. It's normal stuff. And what we call 1:39:24.720 --> 1:39:28.200 distreet discrete stratigraphic levels, meaning they're just like really clear 1:39:28.520 --> 1:39:30.120 occupations if you're to look through them. 1:39:30.400 --> 1:39:30.639 Yeah. 1:39:31.040 --> 1:39:34.759 Yeah, So those Do you think those people hit Alaska 1:39:34.920 --> 1:39:37.320 and just stayed or did they, like. 1:39:37.880 --> 1:39:40.400 Some states, get absorbed into Clovis or. 1:39:42.800 --> 1:39:45.960 I would say the ancestors of Clovis, Some stayed and 1:39:46.040 --> 1:39:46.800 some move south. 1:39:47.120 --> 1:39:50.080 Yeah, have you ever been to or looked at the 1:39:50.120 --> 1:39:51.320 stuff from the MASA site? 1:39:53.479 --> 1:39:56.639 I have the book. I've never seen this stuff. That's cool. 1:39:57.120 --> 1:39:58.920 That's not as old though. 1:39:59.040 --> 1:39:59.960 No cool. 1:40:00.360 --> 1:40:02.240 I went to that masa. It's badass, man. 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:02.840 Yeah. 1:40:03.320 --> 1:40:05.040 You can just picture people wanting to get up on 1:40:05.120 --> 1:40:06.000 that thing and look around. 1:40:06.040 --> 1:40:06.160 You know. 1:40:06.520 --> 1:40:08.240 I didn't go on top of my sat and looked 1:40:08.280 --> 1:40:11.240 at it, you know. But that's not old, right. 1:40:11.760 --> 1:40:15.240 It's place to see it. It's it's like maybe twelve. 1:40:17.040 --> 1:40:19.080 Seven sticks in my head or I don't know something. 1:40:19.320 --> 1:40:22.280 Yeah, maybe two thousand years after people arrive in Alaska 1:40:22.320 --> 1:40:24.400 and it's probably you know, the argument is those are 1:40:24.479 --> 1:40:27.240 planes bison hunters coming back back north fist in the 1:40:28.720 --> 1:40:29.280 fact form. 1:40:29.560 --> 1:40:32.120 That's what That's what they had introduced me to, is 1:40:32.160 --> 1:40:36.600 this idea of backfill. Ye like that you get the 1:40:36.840 --> 1:40:39.000 initial waves of people coming through, but then at some 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:41.719 point in time people move back to their direction. 1:40:42.400 --> 1:40:45.880 Yeah, migrations kind of like quitous clouds up the record. 1:40:49.800 --> 1:40:52.200 What part of the America has moved on from Clovis 1:40:52.320 --> 1:40:55.360 the quickest, in which ones held out the longest. 1:40:55.479 --> 1:40:59.479 Probably the Great Basin was the quickest. It's Spencer. Spencer 1:40:59.560 --> 1:41:03.439 mentioned this some really old stemmed projectile points that that 1:41:04.240 --> 1:41:07.120 some Great Basin archaeologists argue are as old, if not 1:41:07.200 --> 1:41:11.400 older than Clovis. You also have Clovis points in the 1:41:11.439 --> 1:41:13.800 Great Basin, but there's some very old old dates on 1:41:14.160 --> 1:41:19.040 these stemmed projectile points in the Great Basin. I don't 1:41:19.080 --> 1:41:21.360 know that we have really good age control on post 1:41:21.960 --> 1:41:28.400 Clovis projectile point types except in the Rocky Mountains. And 1:41:29.160 --> 1:41:32.080 we you know, I had Laprel. Another really cool thing 1:41:32.120 --> 1:41:35.080 we found is a fulsome point and we have we 1:41:36.320 --> 1:41:40.960 we appear to have a single occupation where people killed 1:41:41.200 --> 1:41:44.400 killed mammos, killed bison. It was buried by a flood 1:41:44.520 --> 1:41:47.040 probably ten years after they killed that mammoth. And on 1:41:47.160 --> 1:41:50.080 the same surface we've got one Clovis point and one 1:41:50.160 --> 1:41:53.040 fulsome point. This would be the oldest case of fulsome 1:41:53.160 --> 1:41:56.240 ever found, so and that would probably be you know, 1:41:56.600 --> 1:41:59.720 that's pretty early. We know Clovis persists after that. So 1:41:59.800 --> 1:42:01.920 this like this long period of overlap where both are 1:42:01.960 --> 1:42:02.400 being made. 1:42:02.520 --> 1:42:05.519 So there was this you know, major extinction event with 1:42:05.720 --> 1:42:10.800 large animals like what happened to the Clovis culture, Like 1:42:11.080 --> 1:42:14.960 when that extinction event happened, did they just what happened 1:42:15.000 --> 1:42:17.160 to them? Did they evolve into other cultures? 1:42:17.240 --> 1:42:17.559 Did they? 1:42:18.000 --> 1:42:19.840 I think it's pretty clear now. I mean it's it's 1:42:19.920 --> 1:42:22.320 Fulsome in the Rocky Mountains at least, and then other 1:42:22.360 --> 1:42:25.240 regions the United States have these other post Clovis fluted 1:42:25.240 --> 1:42:25.879 point traditions. 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:28.479 Because when you talk, when you give them these different names, 1:42:28.520 --> 1:42:31.920 like Clovis Falsome, it's like there was this people and. 1:42:31.960 --> 1:42:33.479 Then there was this Yeah, we should you know what 1:42:33.520 --> 1:42:36.320 I make that distinction? I mean they weren't Clovis wasn't 1:42:36.360 --> 1:42:38.000 a people. It was a stone tool technology. 1:42:38.280 --> 1:42:39.880 Where did cell phone people come from? 1:42:43.320 --> 1:42:44.960 Yeah? And the way I look at it and like 1:42:45.360 --> 1:42:47.200 this is like getting into the realm of handwaving. But 1:42:48.240 --> 1:42:51.599 fullso points are a lot smaller than Clovis points if 1:42:51.600 --> 1:42:53.599 you put them side by side. You oftentimes don't get 1:42:53.680 --> 1:42:55.760 that when you're just looking at books and illustrations of 1:42:55.800 --> 1:42:58.360 this stuff. But full some points are generally at least 1:42:58.400 --> 1:42:59.800 half the size of Clovis points. 1:43:00.040 --> 1:43:00.760 I'm not gonna make it. 1:43:03.680 --> 1:43:05.040 Demanded something smaller than. 1:43:07.600 --> 1:43:11.920 Well, right here, Clovis points have a distinct function from 1:43:11.960 --> 1:43:15.080 Folsome points. Maybe they're a thrusting Spearit not an Atlatal dart. 1:43:15.760 --> 1:43:20.280 You introduce another weaponry system into your toolkit and they're 1:43:20.360 --> 1:43:21.400 used at the same time. 1:43:21.520 --> 1:43:25.960 And that also effect the culture, right Like, so, I. 1:43:25.960 --> 1:43:29.080 Mean Clovis points basically disappear when when the mamos disappeared, 1:43:30.960 --> 1:43:35.160 So they're probably a pretty closely linked thing that Clovis 1:43:35.200 --> 1:43:37.920 points were used to haunt mammas, and then once mammos 1:43:37.960 --> 1:43:40.320 were gone, didn't have much need for him anymore, and 1:43:40.439 --> 1:43:43.200 people started making these little falsome points a lot more often. 1:43:43.520 --> 1:43:44.840 You don't need to hold I was just showing it. 1:43:44.920 --> 1:43:46.360 I want to look at you. 1:43:46.520 --> 1:43:51.720 You very quickly start seeing regional diversification and in the 1:43:51.760 --> 1:43:53.800 way people are making a living right. And one thing, 1:43:54.160 --> 1:43:57.400 I visited this site fiendal Mundo in Mexico, and I 1:43:57.520 --> 1:43:59.519 visited another site where they found some Clovis points in 1:43:59.600 --> 1:44:03.439 the surface. One thing that really struck me there was here, 1:44:03.479 --> 1:44:05.960 you're looking at this Mexican Clovis point. Right. You drop 1:44:06.120 --> 1:44:09.720 that in Wyoming, you wouldn't know it's in Mexico. You 1:44:09.840 --> 1:44:12.759 drop it in South Carolina, you wouldn't know it's from Mexico. 1:44:14.400 --> 1:44:16.120 And they find them right with these gomfit these with 1:44:16.200 --> 1:44:18.280 these elephants. But in this same site, which is this 1:44:18.479 --> 1:44:21.920 really highly eroded surface site, I'm seeing marine shells brought 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:25.000 in from the Gulf of Sea of Cortes and ceramics. 1:44:25.080 --> 1:44:25.200 Right. 1:44:25.240 --> 1:44:29.240 You start to see this super regional specialization. But in Clovis, 1:44:29.920 --> 1:44:33.840 everybody's doing the same damn thing everywhere, and it's it's 1:44:33.960 --> 1:44:37.519 really really striking. You go to Missouri at the Kimswick site, 1:44:37.560 --> 1:44:43.680 you've got a dead mast, it on full big Clovis points, Mexico, Wyoming. 1:44:43.880 --> 1:44:46.080 Dudes had it figured out that. 1:44:46.200 --> 1:44:47.559 Was the main way to make a living. 1:44:47.640 --> 1:44:50.840 Apparently what was going on on the west coast, you 1:44:50.920 --> 1:44:53.439 know with the kel you had the Kelp Highway theory, 1:44:53.600 --> 1:44:57.120 Like what archaeology is there at the same time as closed. 1:44:57.200 --> 1:44:59.479 Yeah, that's a really good question. So the first thing 1:44:59.600 --> 1:45:04.160 I should note is, you know, the coastal migration thing 1:45:05.080 --> 1:45:06.840 has been around for a long time. The idea has 1:45:06.840 --> 1:45:09.040 been around since least the nineteen forties that this was 1:45:09.080 --> 1:45:13.000 another way to get around the glaciers. It really became 1:45:13.120 --> 1:45:16.000 in vogue in nineteen ninety seven when mona verity was 1:45:16.040 --> 1:45:19.280 accepted to be pre Clovis and real because the argument 1:45:19.439 --> 1:45:21.080 was in order to get them down there that early. 1:45:21.360 --> 1:45:23.439 The ice ree corder simply wasn't an option to the 1:45:23.479 --> 1:45:27.160 coast had to be the case, right. So Ever since then, 1:45:27.560 --> 1:45:32.120 like everybody has assumed it's the coast, I should say 1:45:32.160 --> 1:45:35.760 that these again aren't mutually exclusive. You could take both roots, right, 1:45:36.840 --> 1:45:39.320 But there's been a huge amount of work now on 1:45:39.400 --> 1:45:41.720 the West coast because of that, because everybody's kind of 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:46.680 assumed that that's the entry point. And my understanding is 1:45:46.720 --> 1:45:49.200 that there is very little archaeological evidence from the place 1:45:49.200 --> 1:45:49.920 to seen at all, Like. 1:45:50.320 --> 1:45:53.680 You're not seeing different technologies at the same time as 1:45:53.760 --> 1:45:54.519 Clovis was. 1:45:54.520 --> 1:45:57.599 Going on, or we don't really have anything Clovis age 1:45:57.640 --> 1:45:59.599 over there. The closest thing is maybe on the Channel 1:45:59.640 --> 1:46:03.080 Island in California. There's very early humans are getting out 1:46:03.080 --> 1:46:03.800 there pretty early. 1:46:04.080 --> 1:46:06.040 I don't think there's any weaponry associated. Now. 1:46:06.080 --> 1:46:08.960 There's some really funky points out there, but but that 1:46:09.040 --> 1:46:11.200 stuff's kind of hard to date because you're dating off 1:46:11.240 --> 1:46:17.960 in marine shells and there's a lot of old carbon 1:46:18.040 --> 1:46:19.840 in the ocean, so these dates tend to be too old. 1:46:19.880 --> 1:46:22.120 There's there's a very famous human remains. 1:46:21.760 --> 1:46:24.120 From Prince Wales. 1:46:25.000 --> 1:46:27.360 Well not you're thinking about Alaska. No, I'm talking about 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:31.240 on the Channel Islands. Oh yeah, Arlington Springs woman. But 1:46:31.320 --> 1:46:34.280 she had a lot of marine resources in her diet, 1:46:34.320 --> 1:46:36.040 which means the dates are too old. But it was 1:46:36.120 --> 1:46:38.040 kind of like it was basically a Clovis age date 1:46:38.080 --> 1:46:41.920 before you did the correction for that. But we really 1:46:41.960 --> 1:46:44.840 don't have a good a good sample of dated stuff 1:46:44.880 --> 1:46:46.840 from the Pacific coast. I will say there are Clovis 1:46:46.920 --> 1:46:49.439 points that have been found basically on the beach. There's 1:46:49.479 --> 1:46:52.479 one from an island off the coast of Mexico a 1:46:52.560 --> 1:46:53.240 Clovis point. 1:46:55.040 --> 1:46:57.600 But you're also looking for sites and coastal rainforest. 1:46:58.080 --> 1:47:00.320 Yeah, it's a really challenging environment. 1:47:00.280 --> 1:47:02.240 You know, you know it makes me optimistic though. I 1:47:02.320 --> 1:47:06.360 was with the geologist up there who works in Alaska, 1:47:07.200 --> 1:47:09.719 and you know, you always heard when people talk about 1:47:09.720 --> 1:47:13.200 the Kelp Highway theory or the coastal migration theory, everybody's like, yeah, 1:47:13.240 --> 1:47:17.519 but all that stuff's underwater. But he was, he has 1:47:17.600 --> 1:47:21.599 these shoreline maps, tons of it's not because the ice 1:47:21.640 --> 1:47:25.800 a static rebound, that's right. So when you had all 1:47:25.840 --> 1:47:27.640 that ice on top of the I'm not telling you, 1:47:27.720 --> 1:47:30.400 I'm telling folks at home when all that ice was 1:47:30.640 --> 1:47:34.040 on the laying on the earth. It's so heavy to 1:47:34.200 --> 1:47:38.160 push the crust down and sank it. And there's still 1:47:38.240 --> 1:47:42.120 like seismic activity in southeast Alaska from as the ice 1:47:42.200 --> 1:47:44.640 melted off, the land pops back up. So when you 1:47:44.720 --> 1:47:47.280 look at these shorelines, it's this like it's this wave 1:47:47.600 --> 1:47:51.839 like undulating thing where some of that ice age shoreline 1:47:51.880 --> 1:47:53.800 is one hundred feet up the hill. 1:47:54.400 --> 1:47:54.639 Yep. 1:47:55.200 --> 1:47:58.320 So it's like there could be stuff there. Well, I 1:47:58.400 --> 1:48:02.760 mean yeah, I mean, like, like what I'm saying is 1:48:02.840 --> 1:48:04.719 you can't just say, well, it's all underwater. 1:48:04.880 --> 1:48:08.120 Yeah, I have no doubt that there's some archaeology underwater. 1:48:08.520 --> 1:48:09.759 I think it's true they've. 1:48:09.640 --> 1:48:14.280 Found some underwater, but I'm saying it's not uniformly all 1:48:14.360 --> 1:48:16.960 at the same depth. It's like a real hodgepodge of 1:48:17.240 --> 1:48:20.840 of like you know, the the geological history is a 1:48:20.880 --> 1:48:23.200 real hodgepodge of stuff that's way up in the forest 1:48:23.320 --> 1:48:25.519 or down underwater. So what I'm saying is I might 1:48:25.600 --> 1:48:26.679 find me an old ass site. 1:48:26.880 --> 1:48:29.120 Well, there's that notion, right that some of some of 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:32.479 the isostatic rebounds kind of kept some of these coastal 1:48:32.520 --> 1:48:37.439 areas above water, but also why would you expect that 1:48:37.680 --> 1:48:41.080 people would never maybe go in inland for a night 1:48:41.240 --> 1:48:44.280 and form a campsite, right, I mean, basically the assumption 1:48:44.400 --> 1:48:51.000 is that people are just living on the beach because, yeah, dude, 1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:54.160 have you been there? The beach is nice. Sometimes Like 1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:57.400 it's not that it's nice, it's. 1:48:57.479 --> 1:49:01.080 It's an overwhelming abundance of food. 1:49:02.120 --> 1:49:05.360 It's not easy to get, not easy to it's in 1:49:05.439 --> 1:49:05.760 the water. 1:49:06.760 --> 1:49:06.800 No. 1:49:07.360 --> 1:49:10.800 All right, but but dude, listen, I'm telling you, get 1:49:10.840 --> 1:49:15.280 into the shellfish and the salmon. Go talk to anybody 1:49:15.320 --> 1:49:16.000 who lives there now. 1:49:17.080 --> 1:49:19.040 All right, but but picture yourself at the end of 1:49:19.080 --> 1:49:22.400 the ice age, and you know, you come down into Seattle, 1:49:22.439 --> 1:49:24.920 and that's like, we could live on shellfish and ignore 1:49:25.040 --> 1:49:30.280 these mastodons and bison. Ye or after these big animals 1:49:31.479 --> 1:49:33.040 have a shellfish. 1:49:32.560 --> 1:49:35.400 Don't hurt. But they've had coastal No. But but they've 1:49:35.439 --> 1:49:40.160 had coastal cultures there. They've had coastal cultures there continuously. 1:49:40.439 --> 1:49:41.639 I get that's the argument. 1:49:41.840 --> 1:49:45.360 Always more abundant, who were always more abundant than interior peoples, 1:49:45.560 --> 1:49:48.200 and even many of the interior peoples and were going 1:49:48.240 --> 1:49:51.519 to Alaska, the Pacific Northwest, many of the interior peoples 1:49:51.600 --> 1:49:56.519 are still reliant on anadromous fish like marine resources. You 1:49:56.600 --> 1:49:57.200 can't ignore it. 1:49:57.760 --> 1:49:59.280 And that part of the world is a good reason 1:49:59.320 --> 1:50:02.040 why you do that. Now, Yeah, I'm saying in the 1:50:02.080 --> 1:50:05.400 place to see, that's probably not your best option. Also, 1:50:05.520 --> 1:50:07.519 if we're talking about that, look, let's let's look at 1:50:07.560 --> 1:50:12.160 this first argument. Let's look at this idea. People are 1:50:12.960 --> 1:50:16.479 have thousands of years of coastal adaptation. Where's that the 1:50:16.520 --> 1:50:20.280 archaeological record. That's an assumption. Two people are living in 1:50:20.360 --> 1:50:24.800 high population densities. Where are they? Why can't we find them? Three? 1:50:24.960 --> 1:50:27.800 We don't really see intensive use submarine resources. And tell 1:50:28.000 --> 1:50:30.920 let's say four or five thousand years after Clovis in 1:50:30.960 --> 1:50:32.800 that part of the world. Yeah, part of that is 1:50:32.880 --> 1:50:33.599 sea level rise. 1:50:34.360 --> 1:50:35.360 Still hm. 1:50:36.160 --> 1:50:37.800 You know, I think part of the success of the 1:50:37.880 --> 1:50:40.759 Kelp Highway hypothesis is that it's a good marketing campaign. 1:50:40.840 --> 1:50:43.439 And I want to I want to I want to 1:50:43.520 --> 1:50:46.000 rebrand the Ice Free Corridor to the Meat Highway. 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:53.960 Oh. I was pretty enamored by the Kelp Highway thing too. 1:50:54.040 --> 1:50:56.519 I mean, it's a really elegant theory and I'm not 1:50:56.840 --> 1:50:59.120 I'm really not shitting on it at all. It's it's 1:50:59.160 --> 1:50:59.800 a cool it's cool. 1:51:00.080 --> 1:51:01.760 Yeah, it makes a ton of sense when you think 1:51:01.760 --> 1:51:04.920 about I mean, plus, here's the thing. You can like 1:51:05.240 --> 1:51:07.800 the life in kelp beds, and then you can eat 1:51:07.840 --> 1:51:08.560 the kelt. 1:51:08.760 --> 1:51:10.600 I mean it makes sense until you look at the 1:51:10.840 --> 1:51:11.920 until you look at the evidence. 1:51:12.160 --> 1:51:19.040 But meat versus shellfish? But what what what's saying that 1:51:19.400 --> 1:51:21.919 they weren't killing large marine mammals. 1:51:22.360 --> 1:51:25.880 Yeah, in fact that if there's a coastal thing, that's 1:51:26.000 --> 1:51:28.559 what I think they would be doing is focusing their 1:51:28.600 --> 1:51:32.120 effort on large marine mammals mostly you know, seals, maybe 1:51:32.160 --> 1:51:32.599 some whales. 1:51:32.760 --> 1:51:35.000 And being reminded of like Ben Potter's study, that of 1:51:35.120 --> 1:51:38.360 city and sourcing study. You probably know more details about 1:51:38.360 --> 1:51:41.799 it than I do. But basically, an archaeologist in Alaska, 1:51:41.880 --> 1:51:45.040 great archaeologists out of out of Fairbanks named Ben Potter, 1:51:45.760 --> 1:51:48.280 did a big subsidian sourcing study of all the oldest 1:51:48.280 --> 1:51:50.920 sites that they know about in Alaska. The hypothesis was 1:51:50.960 --> 1:51:54.240 basically like, if people were tied to coastal regions, then 1:51:54.280 --> 1:51:57.080 we should have coastal obsidian in these sites because there 1:51:57.120 --> 1:51:59.639 are obsidian sources kind of right on where that corridor 1:51:59.680 --> 1:52:02.960 would be. Okay Lo and behold, every single piece of 1:52:03.000 --> 1:52:05.719 obsidian used in these oldest sites in Alaska. The people 1:52:05.760 --> 1:52:09.559 that are the ancestors of the first Americans, they're from 1:52:09.640 --> 1:52:12.719 interior sources, from mountain sources, and the interior of Alaska, 1:52:13.160 --> 1:52:16.559 and really no evidence that people are utilizing the coastal 1:52:16.640 --> 1:52:17.799 regions of Alaska. 1:52:20.479 --> 1:52:24.240 Oh, I'll settle on this. If I took your ass 1:52:24.320 --> 1:52:27.680 and dropped you off somewhere on like wherever, Okay, some 1:52:27.960 --> 1:52:32.680 remote area in southeast Alaska, I've been there well, and 1:52:32.760 --> 1:52:34.360 you know what, you know where, I wouldn't wind up 1:52:34.360 --> 1:52:39.760 finding you up in the mountains. I would reach down 1:52:39.840 --> 1:52:43.480 on the beach, getting fat off, kept green, laying and clams. 1:52:43.360 --> 1:52:49.360 Until I got enough expertise to effectively hunt bear and caribou. 1:52:50.720 --> 1:52:53.519 Dude, that's a great point. Yeah, No, I got you. No, 1:52:53.920 --> 1:52:55.400 what you're saying is good, but it is. It is 1:52:55.439 --> 1:52:58.720 an enticing idea. And then I don't want to go 1:52:58.760 --> 1:53:00.120 I don't want to go too deep in this. But 1:53:00.200 --> 1:53:02.040 then I don't know, if you know, like Meltzer's whole 1:53:02.120 --> 1:53:07.200 deal with going up and all that, trying to put 1:53:07.240 --> 1:53:11.960 the trying to figure out is there any kind of 1:53:12.040 --> 1:53:17.240 like plant pollen evidence of an ice free corridor, and 1:53:17.320 --> 1:53:19.720 so they go up to these places on the you know, 1:53:19.960 --> 1:53:23.479 where the ice free corridor supposedly existed, and they go 1:53:23.560 --> 1:53:26.160 into these ponds and pull up sediments and try to 1:53:26.200 --> 1:53:28.200 go find sediments that would be at the right time. 1:53:28.720 --> 1:53:31.559 So you go thirteen thousand years ago, and he'd be like, Okay, 1:53:31.720 --> 1:53:34.559 show me evidence at thirteen thousand years ago that there 1:53:34.640 --> 1:53:41.960 were mammoths and vegetation. And he's like, it's a rock garden, right, 1:53:42.680 --> 1:53:46.320 it was water and rock. Yeah, But I don't know, 1:53:46.360 --> 1:53:48.960 I don't know. I'm just saying how he explained it. 1:53:49.040 --> 1:53:50.280 I never read anything in. 1:53:50.360 --> 1:53:53.639 Terms of the availability of both migration roots. 1:53:53.760 --> 1:53:57.320 Yeah, like, was there a green verdant ice free corridor? 1:53:57.439 --> 1:53:59.640 It's a really there is now, right, So at some 1:53:59.680 --> 1:54:01.439 point there had to be. And the question is when 1:54:01.479 --> 1:54:04.080 does that go from being a barrier something that humans 1:54:04.120 --> 1:54:07.960 can actually traverse. That's a question for both migration corridors. 1:54:08.040 --> 1:54:11.320 It's a really challenging thing to answer because you know, 1:54:11.360 --> 1:54:13.880 if we're thinking about a ten mile space, we can 1:54:13.960 --> 1:54:16.080 study that by drilling a core in a lake and 1:54:16.160 --> 1:54:17.920 studying the DNA or the pollen out of it. We're 1:54:17.920 --> 1:54:20.680 talking about something that's twelve hundred miles long? Is that 1:54:20.680 --> 1:54:22.760 what we decided the Ice Free Corridor. 1:54:22.920 --> 1:54:24.640 Nine to twelve hundred is what we looked at. 1:54:24.680 --> 1:54:28.680 That's a length. That's a length of it, right, So like, 1:54:30.120 --> 1:54:32.360 how do you know when that thing is open versus 1:54:32.560 --> 1:54:35.760 closed over a stretch that humans can actually migrate? It's 1:54:35.920 --> 1:54:39.440 incredibly challenging, and if you date different geologic deposits in 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:41.760 different places, you get different answers, and there's a lot 1:54:41.800 --> 1:54:45.200 of disagreement. The dates that I generally see are anywhere 1:54:45.240 --> 1:54:47.720 from it was open from fourteen thousand, five hundred, or 1:54:47.760 --> 1:54:51.960 some people say it's open around thirteen thousand. What is 1:54:52.040 --> 1:54:54.760 really clear to me is that it's open right around 1:54:54.800 --> 1:54:57.400 the time Clovis explodes across North America. 1:54:58.840 --> 1:55:01.440 Can I bolster your Can I bolster your argument? 1:55:02.040 --> 1:55:02.560 I'd love that. 1:55:04.120 --> 1:55:05.560 Think about this, man. This is the thing I think 1:55:05.560 --> 1:55:08.120 about when I think about the Kelp Highway too, is 1:55:08.240 --> 1:55:11.120 let's say, let's okay, let's say the Ice Free Corridor 1:55:11.280 --> 1:55:14.320 was real shitty and it wasn't great, but you were 1:55:14.360 --> 1:55:18.000 just you were making a moon shot, right. You're dying 1:55:18.040 --> 1:55:21.840 of curiosity, so you start picking into there, and why 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:23.840 would someone do that? You'd like why would anyone take 1:55:23.840 --> 1:55:26.720 the risk. They wouldn't want to go into marginal habitat. 1:55:27.200 --> 1:55:30.040 But think about this, let's go back to the coastal theory. 1:55:31.280 --> 1:55:35.560 You go to like Glacier Bay, or any number of 1:55:35.600 --> 1:55:38.760 areas in BC, any number of areas in southeast Alaska, 1:55:39.880 --> 1:55:45.880 we're still today, still today, that ocean land interface is 1:55:45.920 --> 1:55:49.880 a wall of ice. So people coming down in the 1:55:49.920 --> 1:55:53.800 boat had to have been okay with the idea that, like, 1:55:54.960 --> 1:55:58.680 it's true, as far as they could see, it was 1:55:58.760 --> 1:55:59.560 a wall of ice. 1:56:00.760 --> 1:56:01.680 Yeah, it's fart. 1:56:01.760 --> 1:56:04.880 And they would have had calving, like calving glaciers, and 1:56:04.920 --> 1:56:07.480 it would have been like, let's go in the north, 1:56:09.160 --> 1:56:12.240 let's check it up. Yeah, So someone there has to 1:56:12.320 --> 1:56:16.080 be a thing where someone's like so dying of curiosity 1:56:17.360 --> 1:56:18.920 that they have and they have to have the faith 1:56:18.960 --> 1:56:21.280 to be like, I have a feeling I don't know why, 1:56:21.440 --> 1:56:23.160 I just have a feeling that if you go and 1:56:23.520 --> 1:56:26.840 in thirty miles, maybe we'll find a place where it's 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:28.880 not a hundred wall foot wall of ice. 1:56:29.680 --> 1:56:32.280 Yeah. Maybe the elephant in the room is also that 1:56:32.560 --> 1:56:37.080 it would have required a pretty sophisticated technology of maritime travel, 1:56:37.160 --> 1:56:40.560 right that we really don't have any evidence that existed 1:56:40.560 --> 1:56:43.840 at that time. We found Australia, though that's a much 1:56:44.200 --> 1:56:50.320 smaller task than circumnavigating the Pacific Ocean, the North Pacific. 1:56:50.520 --> 1:56:54.960 Yeah, Australia. We're talking about maybe fifty kilometers of tropical yeah. 1:56:55.000 --> 1:56:55.920 Chip Shaw swim that. 1:56:58.200 --> 1:57:00.680 The other thing I think about with this with coastal 1:57:00.760 --> 1:57:03.400 versus inland is I've like, I've only watched one season 1:57:03.480 --> 1:57:05.960 of that show alone, but it was a season where 1:57:06.000 --> 1:57:09.000 this dude, it spent some time with some Siberian rangdeer herders. 1:57:09.040 --> 1:57:11.640 He was an excellent outdoorsman, ended up building like a 1:57:11.760 --> 1:57:14.360 drift fence and killing a moose on this show and 1:57:14.440 --> 1:57:16.560 subsisting off this moose, and all the while, there's somebody 1:57:16.600 --> 1:57:19.400 else on the show that is just like meekly checking 1:57:19.480 --> 1:57:21.640 like a little fish trap every day, and they're getting 1:57:21.680 --> 1:57:24.760 out these little graylings or something and just starving to 1:57:24.880 --> 1:57:27.480 death eating these tiny fish, while this dude's sitting high 1:57:27.520 --> 1:57:30.600 on like this fatty moose meat man, and that guy 1:57:30.760 --> 1:57:34.000 devoted his energy towards the correct en deva. I would 1:57:34.040 --> 1:57:37.320 say you won that season, yeah, but you're not. 1:57:37.800 --> 1:57:39.640 If you could string up a net and catch a 1:57:39.760 --> 1:57:40.560 hundred salmon and. 1:57:40.600 --> 1:57:42.600 One you thinking of salmon runs, you're not thinking of 1:57:42.640 --> 1:57:46.080 clam beds. Like it's two different arguments. What people did 1:57:46.200 --> 1:57:49.840 I don't know, but like you're not thinking of clam beds, 1:57:50.000 --> 1:57:52.120 you're not thinking of celt beds, and you're not thinking 1:57:52.160 --> 1:57:52.960 of salmon runs. 1:57:54.920 --> 1:57:58.440 All these things live in the water and really cold. 1:57:58.520 --> 1:58:04.560 What no, No, in that area and that area clam beds. Yeah, 1:58:04.600 --> 1:58:05.920 but there's a twenty foot tide swing. 1:58:07.520 --> 1:58:09.560 You could walk across a mile of some of that 1:58:09.680 --> 1:58:10.840 stuff without hitting water. 1:58:11.160 --> 1:58:15.960 You know, it's nothing but food. It is nothing but 1:58:16.080 --> 1:58:17.880 food on those clam beds. 1:58:20.560 --> 1:58:23.000 I think that people are driven by package size. 1:58:23.840 --> 1:58:31.520 Giant clan beds. I don't think it was. Yeah, there's 1:58:31.560 --> 1:58:33.560 a lot to it. There's a lot to it, like 1:58:33.680 --> 1:58:36.760 the date stuff, But the food abundance thing. I think 1:58:36.840 --> 1:58:40.960 that the food abundance thing, I think is overwhelming amounts 1:58:40.960 --> 1:58:43.560 of food. So I don't think that that was the problem. 1:58:43.680 --> 1:58:45.880 You know what's interesting about this right is we're arguing 1:58:45.920 --> 1:58:47.920 about evidence that doesn't exist in both cases. 1:58:49.680 --> 1:58:52.120 That's what makes it to stop. 1:58:55.400 --> 1:58:58.120 Is there any explanation for what would have kept that 1:58:58.320 --> 1:58:59.920 ice free corridor open. 1:59:01.120 --> 1:59:04.280 Just the end of the ice age, there was Lauren 1:59:04.360 --> 1:59:07.400 Tide and the cordieron sheets just kind of gradually received 1:59:08.520 --> 1:59:12.280 from each other, received completely until six thousand years ago 1:59:12.400 --> 1:59:14.440 or something because they grew out of Hudson Bay and 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:18.080 eventually the last of it disappear on that time ago. 1:59:18.240 --> 1:59:21.680 But yeah, basically by the time it reached a certain 1:59:21.720 --> 1:59:24.520 point like winter temperatures wouldn't have pushed it together again, 1:59:24.560 --> 1:59:25.520 and then it was open. 1:59:26.280 --> 1:59:28.839 Do we have any Clovis age skeletons of humans? 1:59:29.000 --> 1:59:30.080 Yes, what he's talking about? 1:59:30.760 --> 1:59:31.320 What are they like? 1:59:31.440 --> 1:59:35.640 The Anzi boy from just West My apologies for asking 1:59:37.080 --> 1:59:39.480 two years old, the anti child and they just found 1:59:39.520 --> 1:59:44.680 out he was His mother had a diet that was 1:59:44.840 --> 1:59:48.200 very similar to what they find with large cats. Mm hmm, 1:59:48.440 --> 1:59:49.320 choosing big game. 1:59:49.520 --> 1:59:51.000 So how many Clovis humans do we have? 1:59:51.200 --> 1:59:52.000 One that's it? 1:59:53.160 --> 1:59:56.520 There's there's one from Mexico that's roughly that age from 1:59:56.600 --> 2:00:01.240 a cave in Mexico, Is there, daw Steve? But it's 2:00:01.320 --> 2:00:04.600 not clearly it's not clearly Clovis and Antik is the one. 2:00:05.760 --> 2:00:07.920 Yeah, it was found in the sixties or seventies and 2:00:07.920 --> 2:00:10.040 Will saw Montana and a bunch of ochre and a 2:00:10.080 --> 2:00:11.280 bunch of projectile points. 2:00:12.160 --> 2:00:15.240 Yeah, so her mother the reconstruction was at least forty 2:00:15.280 --> 2:00:18.520 percent mammoth in her in his mother's diet, which is 2:00:18.760 --> 2:00:19.440 a huge amount. 2:00:20.760 --> 2:00:25.440 And this pisses off met and Aaron and Meltzer because 2:00:25.520 --> 2:00:28.560 people are like, see, they killed all the mammoths, and 2:00:28.640 --> 2:00:30.880 they're like, well, no, I can see that they were 2:00:30.920 --> 2:00:33.080 eating mammoths, but how is this telling me they killed 2:00:33.080 --> 2:00:33.360 them all. 2:00:36.360 --> 2:00:39.440 For the record, we liked both Meton and Meltzer a 2:00:39.480 --> 2:00:44.200 whole lot, And it's good to contextualize, like we're literally 2:00:44.320 --> 2:00:47.360 talking about like a couple thousand years and maybe a 2:00:47.440 --> 2:00:50.360 half dozen sites of disagreement, right, It's just that those, yeah, 2:00:50.400 --> 2:00:53.480 a couple thousand years and half dozen sites have really 2:00:53.520 --> 2:00:56.240 big implications for these two issues about how people got 2:00:56.320 --> 2:00:58.800 here and whether or not they killed off these animals. 2:00:58.920 --> 2:01:00.840 And so that's why we talk about it so much. Right, 2:01:01.120 --> 2:01:03.040 even though like it's like kind of a tempest in 2:01:03.080 --> 2:01:05.080 a teacup, if you know that phrase. Yeah, a couple 2:01:05.080 --> 2:01:07.600 of people arguing about yeah, half dozen sights in a 2:01:07.640 --> 2:01:10.080 couple of thousand years, they do have pretty big implications 2:01:10.120 --> 2:01:12.080 for the people of the Americans. 2:01:12.560 --> 2:01:14.560 Well, I already told you that this is the primary 2:01:14.640 --> 2:01:17.760 thing I think about was that quote. Was that Dan 2:01:17.840 --> 2:01:19.640 Flore's quote. It wasn't his quote, but he told us 2:01:19.640 --> 2:01:22.440 that quote. The reason the reason they're fighting so much 2:01:22.600 --> 2:01:22.920 is there's so. 2:01:23.040 --> 2:01:27.960 Little yeah, exactly talking about academics. The reason that arguments 2:01:28.000 --> 2:01:30.080 are so impassionate because there's so little. 2:01:32.840 --> 2:01:33.880 I've heard that attributed to. 2:01:36.320 --> 2:01:38.320 But there is a lot. But here I want to 2:01:38.440 --> 2:01:40.160 like this should we should have said at the beginning, 2:01:40.480 --> 2:01:44.880 at the very end. But where this becomes political, and 2:01:44.960 --> 2:01:48.440 where it becomes social, and where it becomes cultural, well 2:01:48.720 --> 2:01:50.280 it's a lot of places. But one of the places 2:01:50.320 --> 2:01:55.960 it becomes this is is it innately human that we 2:01:56.120 --> 2:02:00.320 destroy our environment? Right? Is it sort of this lately 2:02:00.560 --> 2:02:06.080 human ancient practice that we drive things to extinction? Is 2:02:06.160 --> 2:02:08.680 it just who we are and we've always done it 2:02:08.760 --> 2:02:13.680 that way? Or did we like become evil later? And 2:02:13.800 --> 2:02:18.040 so people will look and like blitz Creek hypothesis, people 2:02:18.360 --> 2:02:23.000 can look at, let's say, extinctions we're driving now with 2:02:23.120 --> 2:02:26.920 certain human activities. Isn't it nice to be able to 2:02:27.000 --> 2:02:29.600 go like, oh, we've always done that. Where do you 2:02:29.640 --> 2:02:31.320 think happened all to the mambis? This is nothing new? 2:02:31.440 --> 2:02:32.320 It's always how it's. 2:02:32.240 --> 2:02:36.440 Been just because something's human universally human, which I think 2:02:36.800 --> 2:02:39.920 that tendency is, doesn't make it. It doesn't addicate us 2:02:39.920 --> 2:02:41.520 from more responsibility to deal with it. 2:02:41.720 --> 2:02:44.800 No, of course, not like slavery is inherently human. 2:02:45.360 --> 2:02:47.880 It's a universal practice that because we live in a 2:02:48.320 --> 2:02:51.400 liberal democracy that decided it was a bad thing we 2:02:51.480 --> 2:02:53.760 got rid of. I should know, like, how many places 2:02:53.800 --> 2:02:57.440 in the world, for instance, have thriving large game populations 2:02:57.520 --> 2:03:01.040 outside of the American West Many. And the only reason 2:03:01.080 --> 2:03:03.200 we have him here right is because there's state sanctioned 2:03:03.240 --> 2:03:06.320 conservation laws that have allowed that to happen. Otherwise we'd 2:03:06.320 --> 2:03:08.600 be in the same boat we have no big animals left. Yeah, 2:03:09.480 --> 2:03:13.640 So I think that argument that, like, by acknowledging this, 2:03:13.800 --> 2:03:17.480 we're kind of surrendering our moral obligation to do something 2:03:17.520 --> 2:03:20.080 about it. It's not a good argument to make just 2:03:20.160 --> 2:03:22.520 because something has happened forever doesn't mean we need to 2:03:22.600 --> 2:03:23.720 keep doing it. Kay. 2:03:23.760 --> 2:03:26.160 He with one more way, this where the rubber meets 2:03:26.200 --> 2:03:28.640 the road. If you turn around and look above your head, 2:03:28.640 --> 2:03:32.160 you're going to see a war club. That war club 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:36.360 was given to us by a guest. It didn't sit 2:03:36.400 --> 2:03:38.120 where you're sitting, but he sat in that seat in 2:03:38.160 --> 2:03:43.080 our old studio named Taylor Keene. Okay, and Taylor Kean 2:03:43.200 --> 2:03:48.080 felt that part of this thing of like he would 2:03:48.280 --> 2:03:52.760 argue that human history in the New World goes back 2:03:52.800 --> 2:03:56.600 fifty thousand years, okay, he thinks it's way older. And 2:03:56.760 --> 2:03:59.960 he thinks that this like thirteen thousand year Clovis story 2:04:01.080 --> 2:04:08.400 is a way of is a way of He thinks 2:04:08.400 --> 2:04:12.880 that helped fuel Manifest Destiny to say, well, they haven't 2:04:13.000 --> 2:04:15.760 been here that long, like the people were displacing our 2:04:15.840 --> 2:04:19.680 new arrivals too, We're just another new arrival. I don't 2:04:19.720 --> 2:04:22.840 agree with him because I think that if you had 2:04:22.920 --> 2:04:27.400 gone to sort of like the architects of Manifest Destiny, 2:04:27.440 --> 2:04:31.440 whether you go back to Jackson, you go back to Jefferson, 2:04:32.160 --> 2:04:34.600 and you had said, hey, before you do this, bear 2:04:34.680 --> 2:04:38.120 in mind Native Americans have been on the landscape fifty 2:04:38.200 --> 2:04:43.160 thousand years, not thirteen thousand years. They wouldn't have been like, yeah, 2:04:44.000 --> 2:04:47.200 you're right, you're right, we better all leave and go 2:04:47.280 --> 2:04:49.560 back to Europe. And also they wouldn't have been able 2:04:49.560 --> 2:04:52.440 to comprehend the timeline anyways because they weren't living on 2:04:52.560 --> 2:04:55.400 that timeline. So I think that his argument is false, 2:04:55.480 --> 2:04:59.600 but he feels that this thirteen thousand year arrival thing, 2:05:00.880 --> 2:05:04.000 and I've encountered this perspective from a handful of friends 2:05:04.040 --> 2:05:08.680 of mine are Indigenous friends of mine, that it that 2:05:08.800 --> 2:05:12.200 it's meant to sort of it's meant to kind of 2:05:13.440 --> 2:05:18.160 d it's meant to kind of deflate or call into 2:05:18.280 --> 2:05:23.040 question indigenous ownership of the landscape, to be like your 2:05:23.160 --> 2:05:26.160 people showed up, Our people showed up, Like no one's 2:05:26.240 --> 2:05:28.680 from here. People just showed up, and they've always been 2:05:28.680 --> 2:05:31.360 fighting over it anyways, and we're just the latest of 2:05:31.440 --> 2:05:33.000 another people to come here and fight for it. 2:05:33.280 --> 2:05:36.560 It's an interesting debate. Let me contextualize it a little bit. So, 2:05:37.000 --> 2:05:42.160 until the Fulsome site was discovered, the widespread notion among 2:05:42.360 --> 2:05:44.920 people that studied this stuff was the Native Americans have 2:05:45.040 --> 2:05:47.680 only been here about three or four thousand years. Yeah, 2:05:48.800 --> 2:05:50.920 And when the Fulsome site came out and there's this 2:05:51.080 --> 2:05:53.560 revelatory thing that people have been here since the Ice Age, 2:05:54.480 --> 2:05:57.680 it was of enormous benefit to Native Americans because it 2:05:57.880 --> 2:06:00.680 established that they'd been here a very long time. Thirteen 2:06:00.720 --> 2:06:02.360 thousand years is a really long time. 2:06:03.880 --> 2:06:07.040 Six hundred and fifty human generations approximately. 2:06:08.160 --> 2:06:12.720 So yeah, fast forward almost a century now, Now that 2:06:12.800 --> 2:06:16.440 thirteen thousand years old is no longer old enough, old enough, 2:06:17.160 --> 2:06:18.960 you have to keep pushing it back a little further. 2:06:19.040 --> 2:06:21.480 I just I think thirteen thousand years is a really 2:06:21.560 --> 2:06:25.520 long time, and it's certainly enough time to establish that 2:06:25.640 --> 2:06:28.080 you have some sort of patrimony over the land of 2:06:28.160 --> 2:06:32.200 this country. I don't quite understand the argument that it's 2:06:32.280 --> 2:06:35.040 not quite long enough to establish that. It's a really 2:06:35.120 --> 2:06:35.640 long time. 2:06:35.880 --> 2:06:38.680 Yeah, the scientific study of the human past in North 2:06:38.720 --> 2:06:44.840 America has confirmed that the descendant communities today their ancestors 2:06:44.880 --> 2:06:48.120 were these people that they arrived six hundred and fifty 2:06:48.200 --> 2:06:49.160 human generations ago. 2:06:50.480 --> 2:06:51.240 Anzik showed that. 2:06:51.800 --> 2:06:56.680 Yeah, Anzick did show that another human remains. You know, 2:06:56.760 --> 2:06:58.720 if we look at if we go back to I 2:06:58.760 --> 2:07:01.560 assume you guys have ancestry in Europe, and we asked 2:07:01.600 --> 2:07:04.520 how long do we have ancestry in Europe? It's almost 2:07:04.560 --> 2:07:07.160 certainly less than that, because there have been multiple populations 2:07:07.240 --> 2:07:10.720 that have run over Europe repeatedly. So thirteen thousand years 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:15.080 is longer than anybody in Europe. Most people in Europe 2:07:15.080 --> 2:07:18.400 could truly lay claim to some you know, places of homeland. 2:07:18.520 --> 2:07:19.560 It's a long damn time. 2:07:19.640 --> 2:07:22.600 That's an interesting point. Do you know what two percent African? 2:07:23.240 --> 2:07:24.240 I didn't know that? Who told me? 2:07:24.280 --> 2:07:26.240 My wife tells me to keep that down because she's 2:07:26.440 --> 2:07:27.840 guy kind of oversell. 2:07:27.480 --> 2:07:35.040 It's to get away with any linguistic turn the phrase. 2:07:35.760 --> 2:07:37.880 She's like, I keep it under you keep it under 2:07:37.920 --> 2:07:42.640 your head. She doesn't wanted to impact my worldview. 2:07:42.720 --> 2:07:42.880 You know. 2:07:45.760 --> 2:07:49.680 Okay again, join today. I'm going to have you, guys 2:07:50.320 --> 2:07:52.240 tell people. I'm gonna remind everybody who you are. Then 2:07:52.280 --> 2:07:54.240 I'm going to have you tell people how to find 2:07:54.280 --> 2:07:56.360 your work and how to follow what you guys work on. 2:07:56.680 --> 2:08:01.440 So Todd Surrevel, the director of the Georgie C. Frison 2:08:01.480 --> 2:08:04.520 Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Wyoming, 2:08:05.120 --> 2:08:10.080 and Spencer Pelton, the Wyoming State Archaeologist and an adjunct 2:08:10.160 --> 2:08:13.600 at University of Wyoming. So, if you find cool stuff 2:08:13.640 --> 2:08:18.360 in Wyoming, if you're like, good lord, it's a man 2:08:18.480 --> 2:08:21.040 of school, the stone point stuck in its forehead. 2:08:21.880 --> 2:08:23.720 I'm going to get so many photos off. 2:08:25.480 --> 2:08:27.520 You know, I gotta tell people's story. So I walk 2:08:27.600 --> 2:08:30.560 into I walk into Spencer's office and the first thing 2:08:30.600 --> 2:08:32.400 that greets me, just laying on the floor is a 2:08:32.520 --> 2:08:37.800 giant the end of a giant dinosaur fever. So I said, 2:08:37.880 --> 2:08:40.640 what's that. He goes, that's a rock, and I said, 2:08:40.680 --> 2:08:42.280 I thought it was a big dinosaur bony. So that's 2:08:42.280 --> 2:08:43.680 what the guy that brought it to me thought was. 2:08:46.280 --> 2:08:47.840 And then he said, I gonna have it if I wanted. 2:08:48.440 --> 2:08:52.640 The guy that brought it just left it there. So 2:08:52.760 --> 2:08:56.320 it was not the dude that brought it. 2:08:57.160 --> 2:09:00.640 But it was a very convincing dinosaur. Not a dinosaur, 2:09:00.720 --> 2:09:02.240 but it was very convincing. 2:09:03.840 --> 2:09:06.840 Sitting there, sitting there on his floor. As it's not 2:09:06.920 --> 2:09:07.680 in the collections. 2:09:08.600 --> 2:09:10.400 He didn't ask you to come out to his truck 2:09:10.520 --> 2:09:11.480 to look at it first. 2:09:16.440 --> 2:09:18.240 I would have been so excited you would this thing. 2:09:18.280 --> 2:09:20.800 I would have been like, holy cow man, No, I 2:09:20.920 --> 2:09:25.240 got it. I'm rich. So how do people find your work? 2:09:25.400 --> 2:09:26.680 What should they check out? I have one of your 2:09:26.680 --> 2:09:31.120 books upstairs. The badger wa just got barker gulch. Yeah, 2:09:31.200 --> 2:09:32.320 I had to buy that sucker. 2:09:32.600 --> 2:09:33.360 I brought one for you. 2:09:33.720 --> 2:09:35.640 You did, Yeah, bought it on him. 2:09:37.440 --> 2:09:40.360 I searched my name. You can find my website. Spell 2:09:40.360 --> 2:09:43.360 your name out, serve L s U r O v 2:09:43.480 --> 2:09:46.680 e LLL Okay, I do want to say that that 2:09:46.840 --> 2:09:49.320 my job is as director of the Prison Institute, is 2:09:49.400 --> 2:09:52.840 raising money to support archaeological research in our department, mostly 2:09:53.120 --> 2:09:58.080 other people, students, faculty, people like Spencer. So if you're 2:09:58.120 --> 2:10:02.000 interested in supporting the last breath of last dying breath 2:10:02.040 --> 2:10:05.520 of Clovis first archaeology, and people who believe in licensing extinctions, 2:10:06.920 --> 2:10:10.400 search of Prison Institute. We're happy to take donations. Every 2:10:10.440 --> 2:10:11.480 dollar goes to research. 2:10:12.080 --> 2:10:14.760 Oh excellent, Yeah, you can just google me too. I've 2:10:14.760 --> 2:10:17.040 got some talks on YouTube. I got a research gate 2:10:17.120 --> 2:10:20.839 page where all my research goes. Also write a newsletter 2:10:20.880 --> 2:10:25.440 on substack called Social Stigma. It's about basically political issues 2:10:25.520 --> 2:10:29.879 and archaeology and anthropology. That's free. You want to subscribe 2:10:29.880 --> 2:10:30.040 to that. 2:10:30.200 --> 2:10:30.839 That's interesting. 2:10:31.600 --> 2:10:34.360 Good, Thanks guys, appreciate you coming on. Man, it's been fascinating. 2:10:34.480 --> 2:10:35.640 Yeah, thank you, thank you,