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Speaker 1: If this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything.

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Speaker 2: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.

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Speaker 2: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 2: for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 2: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 2: dot com. F I R S T L I T

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Speaker 2: E dot com. All Right, everybody, Today we're gonna dive

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Speaker 2: in once again on my favorite subject of all subjects

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Speaker 2: on the planet, which is First Americans. Who got here first?

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Speaker 2: What were they doing when they come? How'd they get here?

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Speaker 2: Did they kill everything? Did they kill all the mammoths?

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Speaker 2: All this question? And uh, we have found I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: explain in a all in greater detail, we have found

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Speaker 2: some fresh perspectives coming out of fresh to me at

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Speaker 2: least because I'll explain the whole controversy. This is a

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Speaker 2: very this is a controversial subject the First Americans, and

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Speaker 2: we have had on in the past a number of times,

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Speaker 2: David Meltzer uh to talk about the peopling of the Americas.

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Speaker 2: And today we're going to hear from. Is it fair

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Speaker 2: to call you guys all colleagues because you talk about

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Speaker 2: the same stuff. Oh yeah, enemies enemies And I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to soup it up.

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Speaker 3: We have enemies, we have disagreements, but we work well together.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: No, he respects you guys, and he says he does

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Speaker 2: do good work. So who I'm talking about here today

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Speaker 2: in the in the studio with this is Todd Serravell,

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Speaker 2: who is the director of the George C. Frison Institute

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Speaker 2: of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Wyoming. If

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Speaker 2: you're interested in the peopling of the Americas and Clovis

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Speaker 2: hunters and stuff, you might go in and check out

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Speaker 2: the late George C. Frison because he did a lot

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Speaker 2: of I guess you call experimental archaeology, right, Like, he

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Speaker 2: went to Africa.

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Speaker 4: And experiments stuck some some of the most major sites.

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Speaker 4: He's just kind of like what we call him the

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Speaker 4: godfather of Wyoming archaeology.

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Speaker 2: And and and he went to Africa to test out

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Speaker 2: stone tools on elephants.

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Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, he did. In Zimbabwe, they were they had

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Speaker 3: an overpopulation problem of elephants and they were calling them

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Speaker 3: so he took advantage of that opportunity to test Clovis

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Speaker 3: weapons on actual African elephants alive, sensibly dead, and dying.

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Speaker 3: Is my understanding, got finish them off.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he just wanted to see how it would perform.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, was it a functional weapon for killing an elephant?

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Speaker 2: And what did he determined?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, he had no doubt. He's the only guy in

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Speaker 3: recent time who's hit an elephant with a Clovis weaponry. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people have done it, actually with deceased elephants,

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Speaker 3: but George did it with living elephants.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Nowadays, you guys are constrained by the the ethics folks.

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Speaker 2: That's a hard one to get across.

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Speaker 4: Here's what I'd like to do.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna stab some elephants. Uh. And Spencer Pelton from

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Speaker 2: the he's the Wyoming State archaeologist and an adjunct at

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Speaker 2: the University of Wyoming's Archaeology and Anthropology department.

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Speaker 4: That's correct. We should also clarify Todd was my major advisor.

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Speaker 4: This is like, this is kind of like your Matt

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Speaker 4: and Meltzer relationship. Oh, a little bit of uh, you know,

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Speaker 4: he brainwashed me into thinking like like he did.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so now you have strengthen numbers.

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Speaker 2: Man, I'm reading a book right now. We're trying it

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Speaker 2: was a guy we had on the show. Do you remember,

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Speaker 2: remember the gun writer And he's a big Safari dude.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to get him to come back on Thomas

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Speaker 2: uh McIntyre. But his name doesn't look quite like McIntire.

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Speaker 2: Thomas McIntyre, you know him. He's like a gun like

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Speaker 2: a like a gun writer. Yeah, you know what I'm

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Speaker 2: talking about. I remember listening to that. Yeah, Like what's

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Speaker 2: super interesting about him is I mean a bunch of things.

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Speaker 2: But he went he got super into Africa and spent

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Speaker 2: his whole life hunting in Africa. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: the places he hunted in Africa has now been taken

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Speaker 2: over by Islamic radicals, Islamic fundamentalists. So like like he

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Speaker 2: used to hunt and there's a country no one's ever

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Speaker 2: heard of in Africa called see.

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Speaker 3: Eritre no no.

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Speaker 2: West, not on the coast. But it's like, uh damn.

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Speaker 4: Democratic Republic of Condo.

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Speaker 3: Cameras, humiliating, come.

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Speaker 4: On, come on.

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Speaker 2: Here, you can't do that, Hey, you can't bring it up.

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Speaker 2: It's like it's like, okay, Africa countries map uh right

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Speaker 2: where it is.

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Speaker 6: This should go quick.

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Speaker 2: It's uh no, it is got some coasts.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, yeah, see, no one's ever heard of it.

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Speaker 2: You can't hunt there anymore. And those same dudes that

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Speaker 2: those green brays were mixing it up with, like in Chad,

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Speaker 2: are in that area. Anyhow. In his book, he has

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Speaker 2: a long thing. The book is called Rain without Thunder

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Speaker 2: or Thunder without Rain, Thunder without rain. It's about it's

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Speaker 2: like a history of the Cape Buffalo. But in there

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Speaker 2: he's got a lot of stuff about human history. And

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Speaker 2: he's in this big section right now about poisons, like

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Speaker 2: poisoning spear points. Oh well, you you might think that

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Speaker 2: til you read the book. It was very important to

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Speaker 2: poison the shaft.

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Speaker 4: Hum hmm.

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Speaker 2: Not the point anyhow, The stuff they could take down

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Speaker 2: with plant poisons, plant toxins and quick hmm. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's a there's a classic anthropological video of the conkson

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Speaker 3: of the jo Uonci the bushmen in the Kalahari no

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Speaker 3: hunting giraffe with these tiny little arrows. They just got

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Speaker 3: to get a couple of arrows in it and then

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Speaker 3: track it till it dies. I thought their poison was

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Speaker 3: insect based, though.

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Speaker 2: He gets into the No, there's three. He gets into

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Speaker 2: the three plant genuses. This is a big, thick book.

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Speaker 2: He gets into the like the dead, the big sort

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Speaker 2: of the Big three, the Big three of plant poisons,

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Speaker 2: and he kind of juxtaposes those to the toxins that

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Speaker 2: they use, the South American toxins, which are more of

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Speaker 2: like a paralyzing toxin, and then these different plant toxins

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Speaker 2: they use. But it just gave him like tremendous efficacy

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Speaker 2: on huge ship killing, huge shit, and some of his

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Speaker 2: stuff just tips right over.

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Speaker 6: You're trying to interview him again. Yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 6: it'll happen. He's dead. No, yeah, when twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Two, his book, he came dead in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: His book came out in twenty three.

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Speaker 6: No More Canvas Safari's No Outdoor writer Thomas McIntyre dies

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Speaker 6: at seventy That is November seven, twenty two. We're gonna

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Speaker 6: need to do it.

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Speaker 2: This book come out in twenty three.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 6: We talked about Yeah, Chris hart Fardley's last movie came

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Speaker 6: out six months after he was dead. No shit, really, Yeah,

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Speaker 6: I don't think it's that uncommon. Well, he Fledger's joker

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Speaker 6: came out how long philed?

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Speaker 2: I'm just talking about did he die? I feel like

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Speaker 2: we should in the studio. We should have a picture

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Speaker 2: of people be passed on.

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Speaker 4: Okay, show there.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you shouldn't be We'll all be there someday, Spencer.

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Speaker 2: It's good little bit of research right there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Damn.

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Speaker 5: When I was doing my uh my research in graduate school,

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Speaker 5: I came across articles from like the sixties and seventies

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Speaker 5: where they were saying the next big thing in archery

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Speaker 5: hunting was going to be poison.

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Speaker 2: Well they use it in Mississippi, you know, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And that.

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Speaker 5: But they were like a spade of law after this

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Speaker 5: became like a thing, there's a spade of laws passed

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Speaker 5: to prevent you from using.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, a lot of stories explicitly.

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Speaker 7: Say blood clotting, what poison?

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Speaker 3: Didn't they Who does?

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Speaker 7: I think that's what?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: They do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can still use that poison. It's real.

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Speaker 2: It's common there. Like I got a buddy, I got

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Speaker 2: a buddy. You look at him, you just think he's

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Speaker 2: a normal guy walking down the street, but he's poison

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Speaker 2: arrows that deer. What what? What? The late Tom the

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Speaker 2: late Thomas McIntire gets into that's really heartbreaking me.

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Speaker 4: I like that guy.

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Speaker 2: Well he gets into is that there's this other book. See,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be going to Africa this summer, so

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of going to move in. I've been reading

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Speaker 2: a lot about the World War two Pacific theater, but

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna start moving into Africa stuff. There's a book

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Speaker 2: called White Hunter, Black Poacher that I want to read next,

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Speaker 2: and it kind of gets in to this with like,

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Speaker 2: as whites were coming in and Safari culture was taken off,

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Speaker 2: there was this effort to sort of like demonize indigenous

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Speaker 2: hunting methods and so because they were pushing this like

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Speaker 2: the only humane way is shooting these large boar rifles

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Speaker 2: and poisons, are that all these methods they use are

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Speaker 2: inhumane and this is more humane and like and then

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Speaker 2: this effort too to declare these big game ranges and

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Speaker 2: if you're like a white dude hunting the game ranges,

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Speaker 2: you're like on Safari. If you're a black dude hunting

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Speaker 2: the game ranges, you're not doing conservation. You're a poacher.

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Speaker 2: You're this, you're that, And this sort of ethical battle

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Speaker 2: over who has access to the resources, which I'm just

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Speaker 2: now digging into. But I was I wanted to have

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Speaker 2: Mono talk about Kate Buffalo.

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Speaker 6: I'm looking at his Goodreads page. His last published work,

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Speaker 6: according to them as twenty twelve. They're pretty thorough.

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Speaker 2: That's a bald faced live buddy. Because did you type

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Speaker 2: in second edition? Did you type in thunder without rain?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 2: But you're lying bald facedly. Well, Spencer's not lying, then,

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Speaker 2: that's what I meant. Well, no, because I feel like

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Speaker 2: if you read lies and put them out, you're a

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Speaker 2: liar too. You're a liar too. All Right, moving on,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna get We're gonna die. We gotta have plenty

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Speaker 2: of time to talk about Clovis Clovis hunters. But real quick,

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Speaker 2: someone wrote in mad because I have there's a few problems.

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Speaker 2: I always have that like it would take like electroshock

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Speaker 2: treatment to have you quit having the problems. One problem

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Speaker 2: is the whole Roosevelt Roosevelt thing, which like Franklin Ruse

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Speaker 2: Theodore Rose, did you know there's a split in the family. No,

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Speaker 2: I didn't. That screws me up. And the other thing

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Speaker 2: is what else screws me up? Is one of my

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Speaker 2: one of the the proper name for my highest honor,

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Speaker 2: not referring to my honorary PhD, but refer to me

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Speaker 2: being a National Wild Turkey or like to me being

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Speaker 2: a Royal Slam holder, which I often refer to as

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Speaker 2: a Super Slam holder. The guy wrote in Very Mad

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Speaker 2: that I routinely get wrong what it is and insult

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Speaker 2: the good folks at National Wild Turkey Federation. It's a

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Speaker 2: Royal Slam.

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Speaker 7: And you're saying, what a super Slam?

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Speaker 2: I always say super Slam, which is like less than

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Speaker 2: what I have.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not.

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Speaker 2: This guy's wild.

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Speaker 7: It's harvesting one wild turkey subspecies in every state except Alaska.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, dude, it's right here. The Royal Slam.

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Speaker 2: According to this joker, if you'll get on Goodreads, what's

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Speaker 2: his name? According to Brett, Brett says just it just

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Speaker 2: seems like that this is the kind of thing you

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Speaker 2: don't need to argue about since the internet came out.

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Speaker 2: But like, mmmm, it's like, I.

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Speaker 6: Will read you what nd n w TF. Let's go

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Speaker 6: with n WTF. Grand Slam is all for us subspecies.

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Speaker 6: Royal Slam is the Grand Slam. Plus the Goulds got

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Speaker 6: it World Slam, Royal Slam plus the oscillated wild turkey.

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Speaker 2: That's where I'm That's where I that's where i'm. That's

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Speaker 2: where I'm not Hill.

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Speaker 6: And then what Brody was talking about, the US Super

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Speaker 6: Slam harvest one wild turkey subspecies in every state except Alaska.

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Speaker 2: So you're you so Brett is right, you say that

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Speaker 2: you're a super Slam holder or well, I but I

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Speaker 2: say it wrong.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: I am a Royal.

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Speaker 6: Slam holder, which is all four U s subspecies plus

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Speaker 6: the goul.

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Speaker 5: So does that change hot matches up against your honorary

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Speaker 5: doctorate roy royal?

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Speaker 2: You know the problem with having an honorary doctor as

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Speaker 2: opposed to regular one. You're like, if you do your

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Speaker 2: I don't have a resume. But we're at to make

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Speaker 2: a resume. You're not allowed to put it under education.

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Speaker 6: Oh where do you put it?

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Speaker 4: Honors award? And that's a problem. It's a tell.

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Speaker 2: It's a real tell. Yeah, because then people look and

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Speaker 2: they're like, uhh yeah, I don't like that. But if

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Speaker 2: I had an honors thing in my resume, it would

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Speaker 2: be like Royal Slam holder, And then okay, we're not

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Speaker 2: going to talk about these artifacts. It just came out

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Speaker 2: of just not even going to talk about it. The artifact,

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Speaker 2: the six thousand year old hunting kit which is in

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Speaker 2: like pretty nice shape coming out of a cave in

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Speaker 2: Big Ben National Park in Texas, because on Radio Live,

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Speaker 2: Spencer's gonna be talking about the guy that did the work.

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Speaker 6: In a few weeks, we're going to interview the guy

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Speaker 6: who found it.

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Speaker 2: Can't talk about it now, Okay, hold on, hold that

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Speaker 2: thought for a minute. There's one nice thing I wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk about because this is gonna segue forget. I

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Speaker 2: said that because I want to segue that into these boys.

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Speaker 2: But you know what's really funny they've been laughing about

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Speaker 2: is uh a word choice thing. Alaska Fish and Game Department.

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Speaker 2: You know, they're doing like they're doing like a tag lottery,

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Speaker 2: and they referred to a tag. I can't get enough

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Speaker 2: of this. They referred to a big game tag as prestigious.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, as though holding it like if you look up,

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Speaker 2: like look up the word prestigious. Just read it real quick.

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Speaker 2: What does prestigious mean? I'd be like holding the tag,

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Speaker 2: you'd put it in the honor section of your resume.

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Speaker 6: Inspiring respect and admiration, having high status.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so you're like, yeah, you'd be like that would

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Speaker 2: be like a like a thing you had, like you'd

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Speaker 2: bring if you're on a date. Yeah, it's good marketing

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Speaker 2: if someone is a little bit out of your league, prestigious,

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Speaker 2: like you know, you might be curious to know that

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Speaker 2: I own a that I hold a keen eye caribou

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Speaker 2: tag in Alaska, you know, And she'd be like, prestige.

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Speaker 2: I thought that was a great word choice, prestigious. It's

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Speaker 2: a prestigious caribou tag. Oh so back to this Adelado

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Speaker 2: kit the other I want to hear what you guys

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Speaker 2: think about this. This will be our this will be

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Speaker 2: how we get into it. You guys know meton Aaron

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Speaker 2: who's been on the show.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Recently, one of our one of our esteemed colleagues, one

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Speaker 2: of our esteemed colleagues, Clay Nukeombe, did a Bear Grease

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Speaker 2: podcast about some of the ins and outs of the

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Speaker 2: Clovis first uh idea and you know, the peopling of

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Speaker 2: the Americas. He did a little thing on that. A

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Speaker 2: lot of the guys we work with are all equally

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Speaker 2: fascinated by this subject. And in there, uh, Clay is

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Speaker 2: at with Metton, and Clay is observing that what I

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Speaker 2: always tell him, which is during the ice age period,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about whether you go back. Let let's just

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Speaker 2: for just for convenient memory sake, we go back like

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Speaker 2: like ten thousand years ago they weren't shooting bows. And

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Speaker 2: he's like, well, how do you know they weren't? And

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Speaker 2: he see he correct so he cracks playing like, oh

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Speaker 2: tell me more, like, how do you know that there

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Speaker 2: were no bows? And he said, well because I told him.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 2: So when this six thousand year old hunting kit comes

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Speaker 2: out of this cave in Texas and lo and behold,

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Speaker 2: it's not a damn bow. I sent it to Clay

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Speaker 2: to say, no notice, no bow, it's an ad a

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Speaker 2: laddle n B. And are you guys at a laddle

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Speaker 2: or at laddle?

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Speaker 4: Guys add a laddle all the way, I.

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Speaker 3: Say a little oh wow.

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Speaker 4: Getting heated interview?

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Speaker 2: So am I?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 4: Who's right?

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Speaker 2: Is it just impossible to say what? What?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 2: If someone when when when humans and what is now

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Speaker 2: the United States of America interacted with with mammoths, is

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Speaker 2: it impossible to say that they were Is it impossible

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Speaker 2: to say they weren't shooting bows at them.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's impossible. I mean, those those projectiles

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Speaker 4: are just so big. I just don't think they would

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Speaker 4: work very well on a boat. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: the assumption, right. Also, like what the oldest direct evidence

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Speaker 4: for bos in the world is probably the Mesolithic.

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Speaker 3: In europeith twenty thousand. That's real.

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Speaker 2: Probably, Oh really, they haven't that long ago.

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Speaker 3: Well, it depends. I mean the way we infer bows

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Speaker 3: is usually based on the size of the stone point

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Speaker 3: because we very rarely find the bows themselves. Actually found

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Speaker 3: one once in Denmark that was six thousand years old.

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Speaker 3: That's incredibly rare.

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Speaker 2: Right, So what was that boat made out of?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I was a kid at the time.

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Speaker 3: I was maybe twenty two. Is my first archaeological field experience.

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Speaker 3: It was a It was a about a ten inch

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Speaker 3: piece of a bow that had broken and it was

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Speaker 3: recycled as part of a fish trap. But yeah, we

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Speaker 3: were digging in this like they call it Gutcha. It's

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Speaker 3: like this really muddy sediment and they would make these

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Speaker 3: fish traps that were like V shaped fences that went

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Speaker 3: to a woven fish trap and the tide would come in,

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Speaker 3: then would go out, and the fish would get funneled

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Speaker 3: into that trap. So that we were coming across all

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Speaker 3: these little round pieces of wood standing vertically that were

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Speaker 3: the posts for that fence, and I came down on

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Speaker 3: one that was d shaped, and that the old guy

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Speaker 3: who had been doing archaeology over there forever took one

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Speaker 3: look at it and he's like, that's a bow, and

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Speaker 3: he dug it out and sure enough it was nice

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Speaker 3: shaped and piece of a bow. Yeah, it was wild,

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Speaker 3: but that's really rare. Like normally we're inferring the technology

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Speaker 3: from the hard parts that are preserved, right, so finding

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Speaker 3: bows themselves is really really uncommon. We do have at lattles.

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Speaker 3: We do have bows, but the basic argument that's usually

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Speaker 3: made and distinguishing between bow and arrow and at lattle

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Speaker 3: is the size of the point. Once they get really small,

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Speaker 3: we say, well arrow said there, we have bow and arrow.

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Speaker 2: But that's testable, right, I mean, like, I'm sure people

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Speaker 2: could mess around and see can you shoot a Clovis point.

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Speaker 4: I think people have done like polatics experiments.

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Speaker 3: David did that for his thesis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, David Howe, one of our master students, has a

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Speaker 4: great he's a great public science communicator in his own right.

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Speaker 4: But he did some holistic experiments with like a crossbow

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Speaker 4: and it's basically made points of you know, from that

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Speaker 4: big like you know, say a centimeter long, up to

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Speaker 4: the size of like a Clovis point mm hmm, and

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Speaker 4: tested the accuracy of those things the further like according

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Speaker 4: to size. And I don't remember his conclusions, but.

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Speaker 3: He concluded that you get to a certain size and

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Speaker 3: the accuracy declines dramatically with bow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And if you look, so, if you look in

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Speaker 4: like a stratified archaeological site, like a rock shelter that's

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Speaker 4: just got layers and layers of stuff in it. If

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Speaker 4: you map out the wits of those projectiles through time,

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Speaker 4: there's usually this dramatic decrease in width. In Wyoming, for instance,

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Speaker 4: it's like fifteen hundred years ago or so, and that's

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Speaker 4: generally assumed to be demarketing the transition to bow and arrow.

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Speaker 4: Or you've been using spear throwers, spear throwers, spear throws,

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Speaker 4: and all of a sudden you get a bow and

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Speaker 4: your projectiles just decrease in size really rapidly.

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Speaker 3: Got it?

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Speaker 2: You know that, dude, I was talking about Clay nukembe Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he killed it. He put a he put a fullsome

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Speaker 2: point on an arrow and killed a bear with it,

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Speaker 2: and the bear piled up in twenty yards.

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Speaker 3: I think was there was that on YouTube? Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: think I saw that.

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Speaker 2: I mean he shot what he shot it from my

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Speaker 2: three yards or something like that. He dug a underground

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Speaker 2: he dug an underground pit and then had a bait

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Speaker 2: pile because he knew he wanted to, like he wanted

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Speaker 2: to almost be shooting up into the bear, so he

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Speaker 2: was underground because he wanted a good angle on it.

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Speaker 4: That's the next level shit man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know full some points are interesting because it's

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Speaker 3: really really fine, like a nice, really well made fallso

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Speaker 3: points really light. I think it would work just fine

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Speaker 3: as an arrow point.

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Speaker 4: Let me hit.

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Speaker 2: I want I want to do something real quick. I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to do it quick. I want I want to

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Speaker 2: lay out the current. I want to lay out the

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Speaker 2: what is the debate?

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Speaker 3: Which debate? There's many debates, the big debate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the big debate. I want to lay out the

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Speaker 2: or let maybe you guys, what do you guys want

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Speaker 2: to do? It lay out to me? But I want

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Speaker 2: you to give the other side a fair shake. No,

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Speaker 2: I want to do it because I don't want to

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Speaker 2: make I don't want I don't want to make you

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Speaker 2: argue someone else's argument.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't mind making that argument.

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Speaker 2: Okay, layout the debate unless you want me to do.

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Speaker 4: Well. You did just get this on a a PhD.

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Speaker 4: Maybe this is your oral examples.

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Speaker 3: It was.

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Speaker 4: All right.

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Speaker 2: For most of my life. The for most of my

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Speaker 2: life that the dominant narrative about the first peoples to

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Speaker 2: come into what is now the United States of America

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Speaker 2: was that sometime, you know, thirteen thousand years ago, some

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Speaker 2: big game hunters came over the Bearing Land Bridge, not

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Speaker 2: thinking they were probably not thinking they were going somewhere

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Speaker 2: like the Bearing Land Bridge was not a narrow It's

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Speaker 2: not like Moses parting the Red Sea. It was like

427
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: a body of land the size of Texas. Generations probably

428
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Speaker 2: lived and died on it without knowing they were going anywhere.

429
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Speaker 2: Came into Alaska, were prevented from going south because there

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Speaker 2: was just massive ice sheets. This is like the Ice Age,

431
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 2: big glacial ice sheets. Eventually this thing opened up, it's

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Speaker 2: been described like an ice free cordor opened up and

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Speaker 2: it's been subscribe described as if you imagine a long

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Speaker 2: coat that has a zip around the bottom and a

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00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: zip around the top. The glaciers melted, created this thing

436
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: called the ice free Corridor, and these hunters kind of

437
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 2: spilled down onto the American Great Plains around the site

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Speaker 2: of Edmonton, Alberta, and then raised hell on mammoths, killed, wipe,

439
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 2: managed to wipe out mammoths and a bunch of other megafauna.

440
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: And it was this like distinct culture. They had a

441
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: distinct projectile point they made and with stunning speed, colonized

442
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: the United States down in New Mexico. They were everywhere.

443
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,959
Speaker 3: They were to Florida, South America too.

444
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they were in Florida, They're in Washington State, their

445
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: points are up in Michigan. They were just everywhere. And

446
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 2: then out of that group eventually like came all these

447
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: different cultures and then you start seeing these distinctive cultural markings.

448
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: In the last I don't know a handful of years,

449
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: it's become these these new archaeological sites have thrown this

450
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: into question, putting forward the idea that people were here

451
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: much longer, that the people that were here earlier weren't

452
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: Clovis and that Clovis kind of came Clovis evolved here

453
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: from other peoples that showed up here. The ice free

454
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: corridor thing isn't true, and these new people seem these

455
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: new people instead came earlier. They came in boats down

456
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 2: the coast, and then they somehow morphed into these mammoth

457
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 2: hunting Clovis people.

458
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 4: How is that?

459
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 3: It's pretty good?

460
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:32,400
Speaker 4: Really, that's a good synopsis.

461
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean there's a number of different issues there, right,

462
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: Like there's the date of arrival to Alaska. There's the

463
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 3: date of getting south of the ice sheets. There's the

464
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 3: issue of how did they make a living? Did they

465
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 3: drive this extinction event? There's a number of separate issues there.

466
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 3: Did they take the coastal route versus the inland route?

467
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 3: And you're right that we've sort of tied up Clovis

468
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: with ice free corridor, pre Clovis with coastal We don't

469
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 3: necessarily have to tie these things together or like Clovis

470
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: with over kill at pre Clovis with not overkill. Right,

471
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 3: all these things we can sort of view independently.

472
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: Let's start with this. When I say, like what is

473
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: tell people like what is Clovis? When we say Clovis,

474
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: what are we talking about?

475
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: The stone tool technology at the most basic level. But

476
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: I think it's also come to be associated with a LifeWay,

477
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 4: highly mobile, use of really high quality raw materials, seemingly

478
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 4: a preference towards hunting large bodied animals, widespread across North America,

479
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 4: and you know something sitting in South America if you're

480
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 4: looking at like fluted sales, cave points.

481
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: Fishtail points.

482
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

483
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 3: And another really clear attribute of Clovis is wherever you

484
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 3: find it, it dates within a very very narrow time range.

485
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 3: Depending on who you ask. The Clovis period is three

486
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 3: hundred to five hundred years m and that was it. Yeah, Yeah,

487
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 3: that like that the really consistent day across the country.

488
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 3: What Spencer mentioned that it's sort of a pan continental phenomenon.

489
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 3: I think that's a really important part of the story

490
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: because that's not really a thing. After Clovis, you do

491
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 3: get this regional differentiation and never again do you see it. Right,

492
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 3: So it suggests that there's really something special about Clovis.

493
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: And right, the traditional explanation was is that this was

494
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,439
Speaker 3: the technology made by the first people and they're spreading

495
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 3: this technology across the continent. That's why it's everywhere. It's

496
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 3: interesting because it's a really unique kind of spear point.

497
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: It wasn't used as fluted points right where they take

498
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: these flakes from the base. We're used for a very

499
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 3: brief period of time and never again. So it's like

500
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: this really really good cultural marker of this particular time period,

501
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 3: and it is a pan continental phenomenon. So how does

502
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 3: that happen if people are already here? Well, the argument

503
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: I suppose is it's like a really popular stylistic idea

504
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 3: of how to make a point that spreads among existing populations.

505
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 5: Can you describe what you mean by a flute and

506
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 5: a point? Like if someone's never if they picture a

507
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 5: stone point, they have one image in their mind, maybe

508
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 5: a couple images, but like, what is a flute? What's

509
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 5: what does a Clovis point look like if you're going

510
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 5: to draw it?

511
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the I would say when most people think

512
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 3: of an arrowhead or spear point, right, they're thinking sort

513
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: of a notched variety. We've got sort of a triangular,

514
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: bifacially flaked piece of stone that have not just coming

515
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 3: in from the corners or the sides. That's a later

516
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: invention that comes a few thousand years after Clovis. With Clovis,

517
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: we're talking about what we call a lanceolate point. So

518
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 3: it's it's it's long, it's narrow, it comes to a

519
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 3: tapered and in the base is basically indented. It's concaves old.

520
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: I thought, Brodie, would you mean mega favor?

521
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 3: Sure?

522
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: Can you run in my office and grab my Clovis

523
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: thrusting spear in the corner. And then I got on

524
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: my desk. I got some clover, some poles and points.

525
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: Yep, and then and then the flute. The word comes

526
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: from like the flute. It's in a column, right, It's

527
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 3: like it's a groove. So the really special thing about

528
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: Clovis points and similar points that follow like folsome points

529
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 3: and other regional varieties of Spencer's got something.

530
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 4: That's badass. You met this dude when this is a

531
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 4: good visual aid? Tyson Arnold drew that wanted me to

532
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 4: hand it off to you as a gift for your studio.

533
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: So where do I hold this film?

534
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 4: That's right? There is great the line drawing of one

535
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 4: of the points from a psych called the East win At.

536
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: What's nuts is this is? This is like the size

537
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 2: that's yeah, that's like a giant.

538
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 3: That's a really big one. Usually they're like a big

539
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 3: Clovis point is usually half that long. That's that's exceptionally large.

540
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: But when we're talking about for for folks watch it

541
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: on YouTube, this is the that's a real if you're

542
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: a flint nap, it's really hard to do that, like

543
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: a high failure rate.

544
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's almost like if you picture a blade, if

545
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 5: you were to be able to pin sort of on

546
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 5: the back end, that's sort of the shape, right.

547
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know they when they were first found

548
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: that archaeologists sort of made analogies to blood grooves some banets,

549
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: and I've never read that. Yeah, that was like one

550
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: of the original ideas as to why they were doing that.

551
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 2: Uh, that three to five hundred to your period, can

552
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: I U I want to take a stab at like

553
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: a little bit, just trying to describe what you're saying about.

554
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: Did that mean that everybody caught on or did that

555
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: mean like, does it make more sense that the reason

556
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: everybody was I can't say everybody. Well, let me ask

557
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: this question. During this three to five hundred to year period,

558
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: if you find a Clovis point, you date it, it's

559
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: this three to five hundred of your period. Can do

560
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: you go anywhere else? Can you go anywhere in the

561
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: US and find other technologies that sit right inside that too?

562
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: Like there was different? Or is everything from that window Clovis.

563
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 3: It's a really good question. Generally speaking, everything from that

564
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: window is Clovis except for the site we just dug.

565
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of evidence that

566
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 4: Great Basin has some different stuff going on. Some stem

567
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 4: point components, but by standpoints, I mean they're not fluted,

568
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: they're kind there's more of a stem so at the

569
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 4: bottom the base of the point kind.

570
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: Of constricts more as a shoulder.

571
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 4: Some of those components seem to overlap with Clovis a

572
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 4: little bit from the Great Basin, very different technology, and

573
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: you look in some of those rock shelters there and

574
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 4: the lowest most components there seem to overlap with Clovis slightly,

575
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 4: although Clovis still seems to have some some slightly older

576
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 4: dates in that stuff.

577
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: Got it, And then we talked about this spence. We

578
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: talked about this work. What's kind of upset this idea

579
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: that clobus the Clovis first idea was it they keep

580
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: they find these older sites. And I don't know if

581
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: you're gonna regret your word choice, but you said a

582
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: problem with these really old archaeological sites is they're not

583
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: normal sites.

584
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

585
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: Like there's been tons of stuff in the media, you know,

586
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: or it was at a time, like the footprints in

587
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: White Sands. Okay, you got that. You got the dude

588
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: out in Chesapeake Bay. Who's who's finding claiming to find

589
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: really old stuff? Or roading out of banks in Chesapeake Bay.

590
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: I know you're only here. Oh, here's the points. See

591
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: we wound up having this picture show up. Brody, Oh well,

592
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: this is like an actual size. Would you guys say

593
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: that's a more normal Yeah, that's a I can't remember

594
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: what one. That's a repel club, that's a replic club, No, no, no,

595
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: this is a handmade one. And then here's one half

596
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: to to a knife these met and met in pieces.

597
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: And here's one a half to two a dangle that

598
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: spear right in front of this built Phil's picture. Here's

599
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 2: a here's a Clovis point half to and it's like

600
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: gripping it like imagine there's that that the wood is

601
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: grabbing it like this and it's bound.

602
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 4: Got the hell flapper.

603
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, split shaft we call it.

604
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, tell me about these really old sites.

605
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 3: And and and well let's I mean, if we're going

606
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: to talk about them not being normal, let's talk about

607
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: what is normal.

608
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: Tell me what what's a normal site?

609
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: So, you know a lot of Clovis sites. Many of

610
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: the early ones were large mammal kill sites. The first

611
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: excavated Clovis site was actually the Dent site in Colorado.

612
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 3: It's mammoth kill. A few years later Clovis points flakes, tools,

613
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,239
Speaker 3: bone rod. It's found with mammoth bones at Blackwater Draw,

614
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 3: the Clovi site that gives the Clovis Complex its name.

615
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: That pattern has been repeated over and over and over

616
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: again at depending on who you ask, fifteen to twenty

617
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: sites where we have Clovis artifacts associated with mammoths, mastenons,

618
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: and gomphathiers. You know what gomphathias are.

619
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: No, oh, yeah, it's that kind of They got those

620
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: big armored plates on them. No oh, that's not it. Okay, No,

621
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: I don't know.

622
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 3: Gomfatheer is related to a masdon. They're in Central America

623
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 3: and South America. So in northern Sonora, Mexico. The last

624
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: twenty years or so a Clovis Gomfithear kill site was found.

625
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: So this pattern people, phil, you put one of those

626
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 3: on the screen, they have a shorter trunk.

627
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 4: I am not an expert in They oftentimes have two

628
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 4: tusks too. Write I can't, there's some difference.

629
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 5: That's what I was for whatever reason, That's what I

630
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 5: was picturing in my head.

631
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 3: That the early ones definitely have strange cranium morphology things

632
00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: going on.

633
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: You want to spell that for me if you can't,

634
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: A G O M P H.

635
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: O T H E R E. So that's one aspect

636
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: of Clovis. We also have Clovis bison kills, at least

637
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: two of those, one in Oklahoma, one in Arizona. And

638
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 3: then we have Clovis campsites, and these are basically you

639
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 3: have heart features, fire pits, people working around them, and

640
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 3: you have butchered remains of usually large mammals. The site

641
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: we recently dug a lot of bison. And this is

642
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 3: sort of typical hunter gathering archaeology. Right. You have the

643
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: things that hunter gatherers do. You have heart, yeah, they

644
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 3: have the downward facing tusks and upward Oh yeah.

645
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: Man, I'd get after one of those, man that'd be

646
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: a sweet school to have. Look at that thing.

647
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: Was that called again gomfa there? Yeah, the genus star

648
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: wars looking.

649
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 6: That's a good way to describe it.

650
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: So that was like an elephant species down in South America.

651
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in Central America. They probably made it in

652
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: the southern US because because this this one clove is

653
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 3: Gonfitthier killed. It's called Elphine del Mundo. It's it's not

654
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 3: far from the Arizona border, maybe one hundred miles south

655
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: in Sonora.

656
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 4: Hm.

657
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 3: Wow.

658
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 6: It says they were on all continents except Australia and Antarctic.

659
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

660
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: So so clove is archaeology is pretty typical for hunter

661
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: gathered archaeology. I mean, you have these domestic sites where

662
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 3: people are camping, sitting around fires, making and repairing tools, cooking, scrape,

663
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: scraping hides. Then we have bone beds, and we also,

664
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: of course have the Anzac Burial not far from here, right,

665
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: we have human remains. Uh.

666
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: Is it is it true that no? Is it true

667
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: that no one's ever found a cloves point actually stuck

668
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 2: into mammoth bone?

669
00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 3: That is true?

670
00:35:59,040 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

671
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: Now, there was a case from Brazil somewhere where there

672
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 3: was a some kind of lithic stuck and I want

673
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: to say gonfity or skull. But I saw that a

674
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 3: long time ago. I need to check that.

675
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 4: Are you do you know that?

676
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 2: There was a rumor at the close type site for

677
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 2: a long time peop were just hauling that stuff away.

678
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 2: And I went there once and did a lot of

679
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: reading about it. And there was like a rumor that

680
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: some bus driver that like they took kids out to

681
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: see it, and some bus driver allegedly took home a

682
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: mama's school that had a point embedded in his eye socket.

683
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,280
Speaker 2: But it's just like, it's just it's just rumor.

684
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 4: I've never heard that.

685
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: You never heard that rumor.

686
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 3: I've heard that rumor twice because I listened to your conversations.

687
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: I think both times it came from you, dude.

688
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: Everybody find I'm going to find where I'm gonna find, Like,

689
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: I couldn't have made that up. A bus driver like

690
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: did a bus driver took some kids to see in

691
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: the hall of thing home with them. I wouldn't have

692
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: made that up. It's too like much detail. I gotta

693
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: find where I read that. Wherever I read it, I

694
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: think is on my bookshelf.

695
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 3: I know if you find let me know, I don't

696
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: want to see that.

697
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think when I made that comment

698
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 4: to you about Clovis sites looking normal and everything before

699
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 4: it not, this is exactly what I'm meaning. Like, you

700
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 4: can dig a site that's two thousand years old, five

701
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 4: thousand years old, six thousand years old, it all has

702
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 4: roughly the same characteristics as like a Barry Clovis campsite,

703
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 4: because hunter gathered campsites look a certain way. There's like

704
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 4: concentrations of artifacts where people flint napped, and there's hard

705
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 4: features that people congregated around to talk and eat and work,

706
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 4: hide and things like that. The pre Clovis record to

707
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 4: this point has nothing like that. It's all weird stuff.

708
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 4: And I think in a more general sense, like the

709
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,479
Speaker 4: burden approved for this stuff for like over a hundred

710
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 4: years now has simply been find obvious human made artifacts

711
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 4: in a sealed geologic context, just a good stratigraphic context.

712
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 4: And I think in our view, you can point to

713
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 4: any number of these sites that date before Clovis, and

714
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 4: you can and you can say either the artifacts look

715
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 4: a little weird or there was some kind of stop.

716
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 7: When you say weird, what do you mean, I.

717
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 4: Mean not obviously human made. There's a lot of natural

718
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 4: processes that can produce things that look like artifacts and

719
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 4: rocks falling off a cliff and striking something, getting entrained

720
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 4: in a watercourse and breaking up that way. This is

721
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 4: one of the brilliant projects that met and actually initiated,

722
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 4: looking at rocks and Antarctica where we know there wasn't

723
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 4: people and seeing the range of variation and how rock

724
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 4: is just naturally modified by the by the environment. Really

725
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 4: great idea that that's why he's doing that is because

726
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 4: there's a lot of natural process as as they can

727
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 4: break up rock to make them look like maybe they

728
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 4: were broken by people when they actually weren't.

729
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: So these old old sites, well what is okay? At

730
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: what date does it become in your mind? When does

731
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: it when does it like tail off? Like you got

732
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: really good sights up to what date and then and

733
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 2: then you got your weird sites thirteen thousand and that's

734
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 2: all the calibration stuff is that, like as we understand you.

735
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: Calendar yeares, and we're talking about south of the ice sheets.

736
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: North of the ice sheets, it's a different story. But

737
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 3: south of the ice sheets thirteen thousand and onward, beautiful

738
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 3: normal typical hunter gather archaeology. To give you an example

739
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 3: of the kind of thing Spencer was talking about, he

740
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 3: and I and Sarah Lawn excavated a mammoth two three

741
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 3: years ago. That mammoth was thirteen thousand, two hundred years old.

742
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: We were really excited to excavate it because you know,

743
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 3: it's right on the cusp of Clovis, and we thought, eyah,

744
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: maybe this is a mammoth by people. Right above the mammoth,

745
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 3: Benmouths was strangely kind of near the top of a

746
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 3: hill on this on this slope, on the top of

747
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 3: that hill, there's a bunch of shirt or flint, like

748
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: really good material for making stone tools, and that mammoth

749
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: is buried down on these old gravels, kind of like

750
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 3: in a base of a little draw and we kept

751
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 3: finding little flakes but all of this local raw material,

752
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: and they're all tiny, like you know, two millimeters, And

753
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 3: this is this is like a perfect scenario for producing

754
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 3: things that you could interpret as human made artifacts that

755
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 3: clearly aren't. All of the local material most of it

756
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 3: has cortex, meaning it's just like a little chip taken

757
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 3: off of a natural cobble, looked nothing like a typical

758
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 3: mythic assemblage, and that there are pre Clovis sites like

759
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 3: that where you have these things that looks sort of

760
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 3: like artifacts, but they're they're probably not, but they're interpreted

761
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 3: to be artifacts. And there's also a lot of really

762
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 3: strange things that show up in pre Clovid sites that

763
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 3: are argued to be evidence of humans that aren't the

764
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 3: typical things like chipstone artifacts. And I made a list

765
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 3: of those kinds of things. If you're curious, hit me

766
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 3: with the list.

767
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so.

768
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 3: Footprints, drag marks, fingerprints, copper lights, copper lights are cross poops, seaweed,

769
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 3: balls of seaweed. Uh, underwater meat caches, Spencer pointed. That

770
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 3: went out to me, there's three cases. Yeah I do.

771
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 3: There are no no underwater meat caches after Clovis to

772
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 3: my mind, they're only a pre Clovis thing.

773
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: Oh really, Yeah, I'm gonna stop telling people about underwater.

774
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: Meat cut marks. So, like Mark's on bone, right, you

775
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,239
Speaker 3: guys know about that.

776
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 2: Can we back up to the underwater meat cash? What

777
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: was the site that was interpreted to be this. There's

778
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: a site somewhere where someone had piled up mammoth meat

779
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 2: under a pond filled the intestines full of gravel and

780
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 2: then use these gravel filled intestines to weigh it down

781
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: under that pond. That's badass.

782
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 3: That site is in the Midwest. I think it's the

783
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 3: Burning Tree mas it On. It's one that Dan Fisher

784
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: at the University of Michigan published. Okay, yeah, I think

785
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 3: that's the one. I'm not sure that certain.

786
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 2: And obviously the intestine rotted away, so it's just gravel

787
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 2: in a line. You're not buying it.

788
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 3: I mean weird stuff, right, this is this is our point.

789
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 3: I don't even keep going now, Okay, bone embedded and bone.

790
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: What does that mean?

791
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 3: Like you have a mass it on bone and there's

792
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: like another piece of bone like stuck into the rib.

793
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 4: That was healed around it that they argued was a spear.

794
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: Point and not to not two of them duking it out.

795
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 3: That's what other people have said. Yeah, their bone modifications,

796
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 3: like the ways that bones have been fractured, Like you

797
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 3: have no artifacts, but bones are fractured in weird ways.

798
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: It seemed like only humans could do it. And the

799
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: last one on the list is a pit full of grasshoppers. Okay,

800
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 3: so this is I just told you about probably twenty

801
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 3: pre Clovis claims, right, all this weird stuff as opposed

802
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 3: to like, what I'd like to see is like, let's

803
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: just say some flakes from from napping Stone around a

804
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 3: heart feature and a really good stratigraphic context. It's well dated.

805
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: There are millions of those on this continent. There are

806
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: zero of those in pre Clovis. Mm hmm.

807
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 4: That's it.

808
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 5: When you're talking about stratigraphic stratigraphic context, like we're talking

809
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 5: about eroading banks, you're talking about digging out a hillside,

810
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 5: like what are what are you when you're thinking about

811
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 5: where to look.

812
00:43:58,680 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: For a site?

813
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 5: Sort of what are the considerations in mind? What is

814
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 5: like a normal site versus what makes things unusual?

815
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,879
Speaker 4: I can speak to Wyoming at least the best place

816
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 4: is define buried archaeology in Wyoming or like rock shelters

817
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 4: and floodplains in Wyoming and Montana. You walk around the landscape,

818
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 4: which you guys do a lot, hunting, fishing, whatever, most

819
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 4: of the landscape that you're walking across has basically zero

820
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 4: potential to preserve an archaeological site. If you're on the

821
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 4: side of a hill, if you're on a really high

822
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 4: surface that gets wind scoured. All those areas you can

823
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 4: drop artifacts there, but if they aren't buried immediately with

824
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 4: like datable material or whatever, you can't really preserve that

825
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 4: archaeological site. Right, you have no idea how old it is.

826
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,360
Speaker 4: But if you drop that stuff in a floodplain that

827
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 4: receives annual flood events, it's going to get buried slowly

828
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 4: over time and get sealed within that. That's your tigraphy

829
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 4: and allows us to go back later and actually have

830
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 4: with some degree of certainty an idea of how old

831
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 4: that stuff is and that it's not say, mixed with

832
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 4: something that's like ten thousand years younger or ten thousand

833
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 4: years older. It it was just laid down in a

834
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 4: really specific location conduced with the preservation. It's actually kind

835
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 4: of rare. Like if you think about just the range

836
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 4: of human behaviors that you do every day, even if

837
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 4: you're out hunting or whatever, most of the stuff you

838
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,479
Speaker 4: do is not going to be preserved in the archaeological record.

839
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 4: It has to be this confluence of like behavior and

840
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 4: geologic context coming together to really preserve that activity.

841
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 6: When Clovis was happening in the America, is what did

842
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 6: the technology look like on the rest of the planet,

843
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 6: like during that three to five hundred year window.

844
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 3: Well, that's a lot of planet.

845
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 6: What about where they just came from, like the last

846
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 6: place they were before the America.

847
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that Slana River site where they had that badass

848
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: wooly rhinoceros.

849
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 3: Yanayana rights way up and yeah on bought that those guys.

850
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: That's that's twenty thousand years before Clovis in the High

851
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,839
Speaker 3: Arctic and in a warm period in the Middle Last

852
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 3: Glaciation where they've got I think spear shafts made out

853
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 3: of rhinoceros, horn bow needles, beads, amazing things.

854
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 6: But what about during that same era as Clovis.

855
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 3: So if we go north to Alaska, just prior to Clovis,

856
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 3: there's plenty of good archaeology starting with about fourteen thousand,

857
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 3: it looks similar to Clovis. I mean, people are making

858
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: bifacial projectile points. The one big difference is they're making

859
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 3: a lot of microblades. It's really tiny, really long, skinny,

860
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: sharp flakes that then they you know, they'll have in

861
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 3: a long piece of bone to make a really deadly

862
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 3: spear point. You have end scrapers, pretty typical hunter gatherer stuff. Really.

863
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 3: Maybe the biggest difference at that time is if you're

864
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: to go, say to Israel, Middle East, you're right on

865
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 3: the cusp of the origins of agriculture around clover times,

866
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 3: and within a thousand years people are growing crops.

867
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: I think, what's your take on the overkill hypothesis.

868
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of really strong evidence for it.

869
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 2: I love it, and you know I love it. It's

870
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: not not light more than the overkill hypothes you're talking

871
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 2: about the blitz kreeg. Right, Yeah, the idea, well, the

872
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: idea that there's a there's again there's an ongoing debate

873
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: about what role did humans have in wiping out everything

874
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: that was bigger than a modern American buffalo like when

875
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: it was over like now that during this period of time,

876
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: like let's say, from twenty thousand years ago to ten

877
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: thousand years ago, I think nine genuses, So nine genera

878
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: of animals when extinct, thirty five genera thirty five genera

879
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: in North America.

880
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 3: And forty some genera in South America. So let me

881
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 3: let me be caun.

882
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: I hate you. What can I want to add? The

883
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 2: little wrinkle before you start. Yeah, folks will say, we

884
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: have thirteen, fourteen, fifteen mammoth kill sites. We have zero

885
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 2: giant groundsloft kill sites, we have zero. What was that

886
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: big ass one hundred pound beaver catch?

887
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 3: Yeah?

888
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 2: Where are all the kill sites of those? Like, where

889
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: are all the short faced bear kill sites? If they

890
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: were killing all this, where.

891
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 4: Is it all?

892
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the right question, you know that. I I

893
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: was telling Spencer this this morning that I started out

894
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 3: incredibly skeptical of overkill for exactly that reason, right, Like,

895
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 3: as archaeologists, we work at a material world and we

896
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 3: look at material evidence, and when there's no material evidence,

897
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 3: it's like, how do you believe something actually happened if

898
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,760
Speaker 3: there's no evidence for it? So, yeah, it's a sticky

899
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 3: problem when we talk about mammoths. Is actually a huge

900
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 3: number of mammoth kill sites. When you say only fourteen,

901
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 3: it's actually a huge number given the amount of time

902
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 3: and space we're talking about, Like you feel that that

903
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 3: is a lot, It's it's a gigantic number. We did

904
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 3: a study comparing the density of mammoth kill sites in

905
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 3: Clovis times to all other elephant kill sites from the

906
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: rest of the world. Elephants are interesting, right because, as

907
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 3: you mentioned, they used to occupy every part of the

908
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 3: world except places they couldn't swim to, Right, So you

909
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 3: have them in Africa, Europe, Asia, North and South America.

910
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 3: It's really their absence that's the unusual thing, even like

911
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: Wrangle Island, Yeah, the Greek Islands Islands dwarf mammoths, and

912
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 3: the Mediterranean Islands Channel Islands. Yeah. And if you look

913
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 3: at it in terms of the density of mammoth kills

914
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 3: in time, especially a four hundred year time period, I mean,

915
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: it's a huge number of sites that it's really surprising

916
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 3: to me that we're questioning whether Clovis people were hunting

917
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 3: moments and whether they affected their populations, given to the

918
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 3: absolute incredible abundance of evidence that we have for it. Yeah,

919
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 3: fourteen is not a very big number, but given the

920
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 3: total number of Clovi sites that actually speak to what

921
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 3: Clovis people were doing, what they were hunting, it's a

922
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 3: huge number.

923
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 7: Is there any guesses, like during that Clovis period, Is

924
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 7: there any guesses how many of them were, like, say,

925
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 7: in North America in that time.

926
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 3: How many clothes people? Yeah, sure, we can we can

927
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,720
Speaker 3: sort of estimate that by looking at modern hunter gatherer

928
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 3: population densities, it's a it's a really complicated problem because

929
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: you know, first, if they're first they started basically a

930
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 3: population of zero, and then they grow to some presumably

931
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 3: some caring capacity or some environmental limit, right, and the

932
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: number of people is going to very across the continent.

933
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 3: But when I tried to estimate it once, I got

934
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 3: numbers in the neighborhood of thirty thousand to one hundred

935
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 3: thousand people.

936
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 6: What about mammoth's populations.

937
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: We can estimate that too. I'm not going to make

938
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 3: up numbers, but I don't know. I don't know off

939
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 3: the top of my head. But it's a lot. It's

940
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 3: a lot.

941
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: Is it fair when you talk about that? Fourteen is

942
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: a lot of sights. As you're saying that, I'm kind

943
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: of thinking in my head of you know, I've done

944
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 2: a lot of hunting throughout my life. I'm trying to

945
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:33,879
Speaker 2: think about ever made if I ever made a archaeological site, Well,

946
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 2: you absolutely have know what I'm saying, Like that I

947
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: made a discernible that was preserved. Like we're they're like, oh,

948
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: a guy killed a deer and then left his like

949
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: like bullet fragments, a knife blade, and it's all sealed

950
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 2: up in some river bottom somewhere.

951
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 4: I think it'd be. I think it's probably pretty rare.

952
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 2: I mean, you've probably had so that's what I'm thinking.

953
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 4: It is like most of the animals you've butchered out right,

954
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 4: You've you've left some stuff. The coyotes have dispersed it.

955
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 4: So what was an archaeological site in the moment now

956
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 4: becomes just kind of a scatter of chewed up deer

957
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 4: bone or whatever, and it's no longer really discernible as

958
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 4: an archaeological site. So yeah, I mean, just like the

959
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 4: preservation of archaeological sites period is kind of a miraculous

960
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,280
Speaker 4: thing and to have That's why I taught saying fourteen

961
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 4: mammoth kills, given all the ravages of time and the

962
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 4: unlikelihood for these things to be preserved, and the very

963
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 4: small number of sites from that time period, in general,

964
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 4: it's a lot. It's like a substantial percentage of the

965
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 4: Clovis sites that have ever been excavated are mammoth kills.

966
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 3: It's the most common animal in Clovis funnel assemblage is mammoth,

967
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 3: which is which is shocking right, because if you just

968
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: go out there hunting, you and you sort of if

969
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 3: you take the attitude I'm gonna kill whatever I come across,

970
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 3: You're not gonna encounter mammoths a lot, right, You're gonna

971
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 3: have funnel asemblages dominated by rabbits, squirrels. It's gonna be

972
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 3: way more dear kills than mammoth kills. The bigger the

973
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,160
Speaker 3: animal is, the less common they are in the landscape. Right,

974
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 3: So when you see this real focus on these large animals,

975
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 3: it tells you they're going after those things and they're

976
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 3: ignoring opportunities to go after these smaller animals. Not to

977
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 3: say they didn't occasionally take them, but they're really specializing

978
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: in the predation of these large animals. Why, because you

979
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: get the most bang for your buck. I mean, you

980
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 3: bring down a mammoth, let's say it takes you two days,

981
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: you get enough food to feed thirty people for a month.

982
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 3: It's sort of like wow, yeah.

983
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was gonna ask, is there any evidence like

984
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 7: average size of like a Clovis group, Like how many

985
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 7: people would be.

986
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 3: Eh, this guy just tried to answer that question.

987
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: How many.

988
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 4: We've been working on this laprel Clovis site in Wyoming

989
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 4: for how we worked on it for a decade, opened

990
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 4: up the site in twenty fourteen. A few years ago

991
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 4: we decided we try to actually chase out how big

992
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 4: this is. The site's very ten to fifteen feet deep,

993
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 4: so it's not like you can just walk over and

994
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,720
Speaker 4: chase out the artifacts and say like, okay, the site's

995
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 4: right here. So we ended up sinking all these really

996
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 4: deep augurs and this systematic grid over the site, screening

997
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 4: all the dirt out of it, and finding these little

998
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 4: tiny artifacts. We ended up finding a site that was

999
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 4: a couple of acres big. If you compare that to

1000
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 4: the size of ethnographic we documented campsites where we have

1001
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,399
Speaker 4: known numbers of people. It's somewhere between thirty and fifty people.

1002
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 4: So in that site in particular, too, it looks like

1003
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 4: there's it's kind of these clusters of houses kind of

1004
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 4: around this mammoth kill got at least three of these

1005
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 4: pretty big clusters east of which might contain say two

1006
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 4: to four houses, so it all kind of adds up

1007
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 4: to about that number. We might not have found the

1008
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 4: edge of the site. I think we did our best,

1009
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,279
Speaker 4: but it seemed like it seemed like we about chased

1010
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 4: the edge of it out. So if you compare just

1011
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 4: the amount of space that hunter gatherers use in the

1012
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 4: campsite to the space of that site, we land on

1013
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 4: this number of about thirty five people or so hm.

1014
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 2: Hm and nothing could feed them for a month.

1015
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that mammoth, I don't think they ate much

1016
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 3: of it. That's that's my interpretation was that this mammoth,

1017
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 3: it was largely an anatomical order when it was excavated,

1018
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 3: meeting the bones, it's still sort of laid out in

1019
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 3: anatomical order, So it wasn't heavily butchered if they if

1020
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 3: they did butcher it, they did not move any bones.

1021
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 3: So it's possible like and all these.

1022
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 2: Called gauntless methods.

1023
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, they certainly the certainly could have filated

1024
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: a lot of meat off of this mammoth. But in

1025
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 3: all these house areas that we dug, we dug four

1026
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 3: of them, the only mammoth we got was ivory, and

1027
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: they were working the ivory. But we have no no

1028
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 3: rib fragments, no footbones. And we also have a lot

1029
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 3: of evidence for use of other big animals, mostly bison

1030
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 3: around these in these houses. So they're sitting next to

1031
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 3: this big dead elephant. It's a subadult's probably in its twenties.

1032
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 3: It's probably I don't know, five ton animal. It seems

1033
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,479
Speaker 3: barely butchered and they're not really moving the bones around

1034
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 3: except for the ivory, and they're and they're eating bison.

1035
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: So what do you big of that? I guess you don't.

1036
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 2: Who knows.

1037
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 4: There's a lot of animals, And I mean, like when

1038
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 4: you all butcher animals, right, like, you can kind of

1039
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 4: stop whenever you can. You can always get a little

1040
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 4: bit more marrow out of the animal or do or

1041
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 4: you can like maybe you want to take the liver

1042
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 4: or whatever. Well, a lot of times you don't do

1043
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 4: that right because you don't need to same thing here.

1044
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 4: If you have animals at your disposal and you don't

1045
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 4: need to go to all that crazy effort to get

1046
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 4: every last calorie out of that animal, then you're just

1047
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 4: gonna take what.

1048
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 3: You want and move on do the gourmet butchery.

1049
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you hear people talk about and when

1050
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 2: I say people, I mean like people in the discipline

1051
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 2: that you're in. Right now, I'm holding in my hand.

1052
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: If you're watching, I'm holding my hand a Clovis point

1053
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: that's half to don d a knife blade. So I'm

1054
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 2: doing some devil's advocacy here. So what we know if

1055
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 2: you look at the archaeological record, this is half the

1056
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 2: DOWNTO wouldn't handle with sinews. Okay, the sinews ride away,

1057
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 2: the wood rots away, and all you have is the

1058
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 2: stone left and some bone. Earlier, I mentioned that they've

1059
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 2: never found one of these points embedded into mammoth bone,

1060
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 2: and I don't even know how possible that is. I'm

1061
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 2: sure you could study it, whether it's some pot like

1062
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 2: if you took a mammoth femur and jabbed it with this,

1063
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 2: do you ever get it to actually stick and dry

1064
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: in there or not? I don't know. So you have

1065
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 2: bones and you have stone. We assume because the stone's there,

1066
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 2: were like, oh they stabbed it. They stabbed it, and

1067
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: these are stuck in there because that's how they killed it,

1068
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 2: all right. Someone else, who's pushing a narrative that they

1069
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,439
Speaker 2: weren't mammoth hunters, says, well, they found it lay in dead,

1070
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,439
Speaker 2: and then they not that the stone. The point didn't

1071
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 2: get there on the end of a spear shaft. It

1072
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: was there because it was on their little knife which

1073
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 2: they cut this dead one up with. As a like

1074
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 2: as an outdoorsman. What I always laugh about about that

1075
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 2: explanation is, and you guys could bat me up on this,

1076
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: when you're out wandering around the mountains or out wandering

1077
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 2: around the woods, you do not often encounter fresh dead stuff.

1078
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 3: Like it.

1079
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 2: It vert like I can almost go out and say, like,

1080
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen the ju lane highway. Yes, yeah, but

1081
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm saying out right out yeah, encountering all this fresh

1082
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: dead stuff, if you wanted me to produce a dead thing,

1083
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 2: it'd be much more like I would be much quicker

1084
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 2: at producing a dead thing by killing it than I

1085
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 2: would wander around. So I found it, you know what

1086
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 2: I'm saying. So I've always laughed at but that's like

1087
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 2: an idea, is that is that they were just finding

1088
00:58:58,920 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 2: them laying around.

1089
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 4: Everyone And if you did find one, would you go

1090
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 4: shoe that's a good eating I don't think so.

1091
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean I've had this argument with colleagues, right

1092
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 3: they're like this this this site we're digging laprell, there's

1093
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 3: this dead mammoth there. There's not a clovise point in it.

1094
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 3: There's a Clovis Point about forty feet away from it.

1095
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 3: You're yeah, people said, yeah, somebody we paid to dig.

1096
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:28,959
Speaker 4: Seriously, yeah, in an excavation, know, yeah, forty ft away.

1097
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 3: It's a big sight. Is this camp. There's this dead

1098
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 3: mammoth in this really cool camp around it, right, and

1099
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 3: that the the Clovise point is in the camp area.

1100
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 3: But people were not in with it, not in the mammoth.

1101
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 3: People will say to me, how do you know that

1102
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 3: mammoth wasn't scavenge? And the argument I make is exactly

1103
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 3: what you just made, which is there a hell of

1104
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 3: a lot more opportunities to exploit a live mammoths than

1105
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 3: dead ones. Also, you know this this this sort of

1106
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 3: this divide in the discipline about whether we see Clovis

1107
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 3: hunters a sort of living in this land of abundance.

1108
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 3: As Spencer sort of just described, why eat this really

1109
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,480
Speaker 3: lean mammoth if I can access bison any time I want?

1110
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 3: Sort of the idea, I'm the first person in this

1111
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 3: land and these animals are naive to me and like

1112
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 3: it's easy living versus these are the first people in

1113
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 3: the land. They're kind of lost, they're scared of these

1114
01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 3: big animals. They don't know the animal behavior. It's dangerous

1115
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 3: to hunt them, so they're being really cautious, right, mammoths

1116
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 3: are too dangerous.

1117
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 2: But that Yeah, but they've been dealing with them for

1118
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: They've been dealing with them for generations and thousands of miles.

1119
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 3: I'm on your side, man, I mean, I think people

1120
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 3: they were they but their right, they have like one

1121
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 3: hundred year generation.

1122
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 2: Because they were there's mamoson Siberia. Absolutely, they'd know no like,

1123
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 2: they would know no reality. They would know no reality

1124
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: in which even their most distant ancestor wasn't dealing with them.

1125
01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 3: I would say even if they came into the America's

1126
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 3: and had never seen a mammoth, they would really quickly

1127
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 3: learn learn how to expertly prey on that animal, and

1128
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 3: they would enjoy the hell out of it, in part

1129
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 3: because of the danger, in part because you bring down

1130
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 3: all this meat. You can make your life for all

1131
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 3: your friends better. You can use that for social capital.

1132
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 3: You get a lot of prestige you bring down an

1133
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 3: animal like that. Right, So yeah, I very much think

1134
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 3: this was a good time to be a human. When

1135
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 3: you're the first first person in a place, you guys

1136
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 3: understand that as hunters, right, you want to hunt where

1137
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 3: nobody else hunts. Yeah, so the big animals are so

1138
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 3: we have the best opportunities, So we have the most animals.

1139
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 2: Right, we see this. This is how I've explained at

1140
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: various times of people is like you can find isolated

1141
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: instances of what it might have been like for them.

1142
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 2: Because when you look at when whaler's or like as

1143
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 2: soon as trans oceanic shipping and whalers started hitting these

1144
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 2: islands that no one had ever been on, like, no

1145
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 2: one found the say shells until transoceanic shipping, Like no

1146
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 2: one found it. There's one mammal of fruit bat like one.

1147
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:04,919
Speaker 2: It's so far out there, like no mammal had found

1148
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 2: it except for a flying mammal. When dudes get on

1149
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:12,280
Speaker 2: these islands, they're just picking shit up. They're walking around us,

1150
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: grabbing birds by the neck, birds are trying to land

1151
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 2: on them. They're like literally carrying just like picking up

1152
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: and carrying turtles and stacking them in their boats upside down.

1153
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1154
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 3: This the survival of giant tortoises on the Seychelles, the

1155
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 3: survival of giant tortoises and the Galapagos, both things and

1156
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 3: both both the same thing in both cases. Right, no humans,

1157
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 3: no historic period.

1158
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 2: We just filled our boat like with live ones.

1159
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 3: So we about the knife question. You know, I did

1160
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 3: a study with Dave Kilby and Bruce Huckle and others

1161
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 3: looking at this question of Clovis's knives and the idea

1162
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 3: of whether you know, Clovis points could actually kill a

1163
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 3: mammoth or not. And and one thing we looked at

1164
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:59,720
Speaker 3: was where you find complete points versus broken points. Complete

1165
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 3: points and people generally don't discard functional tools, right, And

1166
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 3: we know from the like later bison kills that you

1167
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 3: really commonly find complete points and bison kills because you

1168
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 3: kill this big mass of animals, you lose the points,

1169
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 3: You lose them in the mess, and you don't get

1170
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 3: them back. It's like a really commonplace to find complete points.

1171
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 3: In camps. You find the broken points when they do

1172
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 3: retrieve the weapons, they're broken and they retooled. You find

1173
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 3: the broken ones in camps and the complete ones and kills.

1174
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 3: So we looked at this for Clovis and we find

1175
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 3: absolutely in these mammoth kills you have a lot of

1176
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 3: complete points. If these are knives, you have to ask yourself,

1177
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:39,000
Speaker 3: why are these people discarding six inch beautifully functional.

1178
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 5: Well, it takes in their hand the whole time, presuming right, like.

1179
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 3: At the Knocko mammoth, you've got eight of these inside

1180
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 3: the animal. And by the way, you keep asking about

1181
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 3: like artifacts embedded in the bone, and mammoth bone that

1182
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 3: has been found twice I think in the Upper Paralytic

1183
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 3: of Europe. At the layer site, which is a mammoth

1184
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 3: kill in Arizona, there are two Clovis points right between

1185
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 3: the ribs of them, right, we'd expect them to find them,

1186
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 3: you know. So yeah, not embedded in the bone, but

1187
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 3: pretty much in a place where you shouldn't be questioning

1188
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 3: what this association between a weapon and a dead animal is.

1189
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 2: Right. That is a good point that if you got

1190
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 2: that big old pile on them, guts and shit, you

1191
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: know that if you had stabbed them in there, you

1192
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: might not retrieve them out. I mean, I've cut my

1193
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 2: hand on broad heads I couldn't find inside deer.

1194
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and especially if they have a foreshaft, right, because

1195
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 3: the fore shaft detaches in its way in the body cavity.

1196
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: And if you know one thing interesting about butchering mamot's,

1197
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 3: if they fall on one side. Forget about that stiff. Yeah,

1198
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 3: it really only but like one side of the animal,

1199
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 3: because if you can't turn it over right, so if

1200
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,800
Speaker 3: you shot it from that side, you might lose every

1201
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 3: weapon that went in from that side.

1202
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 6: What are their tools did Clovis people have? Like was

1203
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 6: there anything that would be redundant if you were to

1204
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 6: use that as a knife? Like do we already know?

1205
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 3: Oh?

1206
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 6: They had a knife sort of thing.

1207
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it.

1208
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 2: I mean, oh, Brodie, can you can you run me

1209
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 2: another hair and do?

1210
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1211
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 2: You didn't grab did you bring my bone? My bone

1212
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 2: shafts down?

1213
01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 7: The little white ones?

1214
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 2: Keep grabbing those, see you guys in a minute. Brody's

1215
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 2: getting the workout. We've got a why don't sit in

1216
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 2: that chair.

1217
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 4: It's a pretty great sample of Clovis tools from this

1218
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 4: Laprell site we keep talking about, Uh, you know, stone

1219
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 4: age toolkits don't actually change a ton between Clovis and

1220
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 4: like the recent pass on the planes. You need the

1221
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 4: same stuff. You need stuff to cut things with, you

1222
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 4: need stuff to poke holes with, you need stuff to

1223
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 4: scrape with. It's like basically the three things that stone

1224
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 4: tools do. So stone knives and Clovis as sandwiches and

1225
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 4: my experience are just really large flakes. Sometimes they're retouched

1226
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 4: on one edge and in my experience just messing with

1227
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,400
Speaker 4: hides and to find quart site to be the best

1228
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 4: medium to use it. I think it's because it got

1229
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 4: a little grit to it. It kind of cuts into

1230
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 4: the meat a little better. There's also at the laprel

1231
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 4: site of big chopper. I watched you guys as bison

1232
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 4: butchery experiment. One thing you're missing it met and tried

1233
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 4: to make you as a big chopper to get those

1234
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 4: ribs off. Got it. But at La probably have this cobble.

1235
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 4: We have two of them, two choppers. Yeah, cobble that

1236
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 4: fits just perfectly in your hand with like three flakes

1237
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:14,200
Speaker 4: taken off of the edge of it. Something you can

1238
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 4: just bash with really common tool type, like in any

1239
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 4: large mammal butcherings with a hand axe basically. Yeah.

1240
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 3: In fact, you find them in an old one like

1241
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 3: one point eight million years old, the oldest choppers, and

1242
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 3: you find them in Clovis too.

1243
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 4: I'd say one underappreciated aspect of these hunter gathered toolkits,

1244
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 4: the stuff to they close with. This is what I

1245
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 4: studied primarily for my dissertation and that's scrapers, so you

1246
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 4: just a stone scraper retouched it on one end. You

1247
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 4: stick it into a handle to get some leverage, and

1248
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 4: it's what used to scrape dry high to make it

1249
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 4: more pliable. Also perforating tools that you'd use to prepare

1250
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 4: seams to sew clothing with, because you're using using these

1251
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 4: bone needles right and with bone needles don't have really

1252
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 4: the tensile strength to perforate leather all the time, so

1253
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 4: you prepare a scene with little perforators and stitch it up.

1254
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 4: It's really kind of the the bread and butter of

1255
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 4: a stone age tool gets these things where you scrape things,

1256
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,080
Speaker 4: a scrape hide, perforate hide, and cut up animals with.

1257
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 3: I would say there is one knife form possibly which

1258
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 3: is the ultra thin Byface, which is a really really

1259
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 3: beautifully made, super thin bifacial knife that we've found a

1260
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,960
Speaker 3: few of, the prowl. They're more commonly associated with Folsom,

1261
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 3: which follows Clovis in the West, but there are non

1262
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 3: Clovis examples, probably knives.

1263
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I have a confession to make in all

1264
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 2: my casual Joe below reading about Clovis hunters and fulsome

1265
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 2: hunters I had never heard of what I'm holding in

1266
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 2: my hand until I was looking at that chart hanging

1267
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 2: at your office. Like then Meton sends me some of

1268
01:07:54,680 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 2: these these are out of Uh, these are replicas of

1269
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 2: some pieces that came out.

1270
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 3: Of Ohio, I believe Sheridan Cave.

1271
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd never even heard of this. When I opened

1272
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 2: the package up, I thought it was some kind of

1273
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 2: little point. But this is like a piece. This is

1274
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 2: a piece of a Clovis toolkit. That is, people debate

1275
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 2: what the hell this was?

1276
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 4: Right?

1277
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, talk about that. Can you get a good on that?

1278
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 2: Phil You're getting it looks great? Uh, just to give

1279
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 2: it quick a little more analysis. It's there's this bevel

1280
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:37,600
Speaker 2: cut into it and it's strided like it's caught like

1281
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 2: you wanted to just going out on a limb here,

1282
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 2: like you wanted to make it a little more grippy.

1283
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 2: All right, Michael.

1284
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 4: So these are bone rods, commonly called bone rods. They've

1285
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 4: been found in a lot of clovi including the Clovis

1286
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 4: Typesite has a really beautiful example of one of these.

1287
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:56,800
Speaker 4: I've only found one in my career, was that the

1288
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 4: powers to hematite.

1289
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:00,839
Speaker 2: Corey, what kind of bones.

1290
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:05,040
Speaker 4: I'm guessing it was a piece of cortical bone, like

1291
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 4: a long bone from a bison. Not exactly sure. I

1292
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 4: don't know what these are, but my assumption is that

1293
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:15,760
Speaker 4: it has something to do with the weaponry system powers Too.

1294
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,639
Speaker 4: This okre mine is, for whatever reason, just completely filled

1295
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 4: with paleo Indian weaponry. We found like one hundred and

1296
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,559
Speaker 4: seventy points at this site set an okre mine, an

1297
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 4: ochre mine in Southeast Wyoming, and we found one of

1298
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 4: these associated with the Clovis fulsome layer at powers Too,

1299
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 4: which is also filled with projectile points and flakes and stuff.

1300
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 4: So my assumption is that it has something to do

1301
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 4: with the weaponry system. What that is. I don't think

1302
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 4: anybody has really ever satisfactorily explained that.

1303
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,920
Speaker 7: When you say weaponry system, you mean it was linked

1304
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 7: to the Clovis point somehow, or.

1305
01:09:51,360 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 4: Perhaps using the hafting system or something like that.

1306
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could see this as a four cheft somehow, right,

1307
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 3: the Clovis point there and then some other kind of

1308
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 3: wedge on the other side.

1309
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, a guy online figured it out. I was that

1310
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 2: guy figures out a lot I saying, So I got

1311
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 2: to about different dudes debating it, right, and there's a

1312
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 2: dude saying that, like if you wedge that thing and

1313
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:19,759
Speaker 2: when you're trying to I couldn't. He didn't have any visuals,

1314
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 2: but basically saying like he wedged it on the hafting

1315
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 2: process and then as you lash that piece it like titans.

1316
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:28,840
Speaker 4: That was his take on it.

1317
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:32,679
Speaker 2: It like it tightens the spear point. But he didn't

1318
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 2: have any pictures to explain what the hell he was

1319
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 2: talking about. But it's like, I had never heard of

1320
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 2: that thing.

1321
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 3: They're not common, you know. There's in nineteen thirty six

1322
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 3: in the Clovis site when they found the first mammoth

1323
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 3: remains in Clovis Points, they had one of these in

1324
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 3: the mammoth bone bed, but it's not common to find

1325
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 3: them in mammoth bum beds. That that might be the only.

1326
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 2: Case because it's like also I imagine, because it's organic

1327
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:56,759
Speaker 2: and ship hauls it away or it rots.

1328
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 3: If you have bone preserved, these will be deserved if

1329
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 3: they were there and they were left there. But again,

1330
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 3: like nice functional implements, which these appear to be right,

1331
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 3: they don't appear to be broken. People tend not to

1332
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 3: leave these things behind. Pretty sure there were some of

1333
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 3: these in the Anziki.

1334
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then the East Winnachi site. There's several of

1335
01:11:16,439 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 4: these associated with, like, I don't know how many points

1336
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,719
Speaker 4: are from there, a couple dozen Clovis points. It seems

1337
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 4: to be consistently associated with weaponry, though. The only other

1338
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 4: theory I've heard about these is dog sleds or something.

1339
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:33,479
Speaker 3: That's That was Gramley's argument about East and I think

1340
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 3: those were bi beveled, so they didn't have a point

1341
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 3: on one end. They had a bevel this way and

1342
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 3: a bevel an alternate bevel on the other side. And

1343
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 3: Gramley argued that they were lashed together to make it

1344
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,679
Speaker 3: the runner on the heads. That's really silly idea.

1345
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 6: Come on, do you ever find evidence of clodest points

1346
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,479
Speaker 6: being picked up by ancient humans, like five thousand years

1347
01:11:58,520 --> 01:11:59,960
Speaker 6: later and they find a use for them in all

1348
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 6: of a sudden, there's a clothes point in with like

1349
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 6: a woodland site somewhere.

1350
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 4: Yes, I know one example off the top of my head,

1351
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 4: and I'm pretty sure everybody cites this one example. I've

1352
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 4: actually never tracked down the citation to it, but I've

1353
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 4: heard over and over again my entire career that somebody

1354
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 4: found a fulsome point of Pueblo.

1355
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's what I mean.

1356
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 6: That's the one example of that like happening like.

1357
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 2: An Sazi what what so the so called honestas your

1358
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:31,200
Speaker 2: ancient puebloans that some pueblo had one where some dude's like,

1359
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 2: look at that, brought it home.

1360
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 4: M I think everyone's everyone's into old stuff, right, That's

1361
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 4: why I'm into archaeology. I think we have to assume

1362
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 4: people had a fascination for the past.

1363
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bring home old shell casings. It wouldn't bring

1364
01:12:45,400 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: home a new shell casing from If I find a

1365
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,600
Speaker 2: straight ball shellcasing that's got some holes rotten through it,

1366
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to bring that sucker homered percent. Man, you

1367
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 2: got if I found one of my buddies, I'm not

1368
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 2: bringing it home.

1369
01:12:58,080 --> 01:12:59,680
Speaker 4: I got a spot in your garage where you just

1370
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:01,679
Speaker 4: stack your old or your treasures.

1371
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,640
Speaker 5: Look at there's a twenty seven nozzler case. It's got

1372
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:06,759
Speaker 5: to be you know, we could be up to fifteen

1373
01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 5: years old.

1374
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm bringing that home.

1375
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,600
Speaker 3: Steve, Like, like twenty minutes ago, you asked about the

1376
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 3: absence of evidence for like hunting all these megafaunas. Yeah,

1377
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 3: can I say something about that?

1378
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 2: Say everything you want to say about that.

1379
01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 3: So when you talk about like the giant beaver, right,

1380
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 3: those guys, my understanding is are living in the northeast,

1381
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,560
Speaker 3: in the Midwest. In terms of what are evidence for

1382
01:13:29,640 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 3: Clovis subsistence in that part of the world, we have

1383
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 3: about two bones that happen to preservative fire and they're

1384
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:39,799
Speaker 3: both caribou. Bottom line is there's this huge blank spot

1385
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 3: in what Clovist people were doing in that part of

1386
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 3: the country where that animal lives. We basically have no

1387
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,479
Speaker 3: evidence for anything any subsistence.

1388
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 2: At all because it's not suitable to preserve.

1389
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,800
Speaker 3: Right, right, So is the absence of evidence of hunting

1390
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 3: of giant beaver meaningful? Probably not right. We can't really

1391
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 3: interpret it one way or another. And a lot about

1392
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 3: the Clovis record of finnel uses that way. Like if

1393
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,559
Speaker 3: you say, well, there's no evidence for Clovis use of sloth, well,

1394
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 3: would you expect to see it in a mammoth kill site?

1395
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,640
Speaker 3: Probably not right, And that's what most of our sites are.

1396
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:12,839
Speaker 3: So is the absence of sloth and mammoth kill sites interesting?

1397
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 3: Probably not. Now, if we go to the Aubrey site

1398
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 3: in Texas, this big Clovis campsite. They do have sloth

1399
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:22,719
Speaker 3: dermal oscacles, which are these little like pieces of bone

1400
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 3: embedded in the skin that armored these giant ground sloths.

1401
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,320
Speaker 3: Is that evidence for Clovis hunting of ground sloth? A

1402
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:33,800
Speaker 3: couple of derm oscles and a Clovis campsite. It's pretty ambiguous, right,

1403
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,559
Speaker 3: so the record is really hard to interpret. I will

1404
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:43,080
Speaker 3: say there is recently published a sloth kill from Argentina

1405
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:48,080
Speaker 3: called Campo Laborde. It's late places seen big. I think megathereum.

1406
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:50,679
Speaker 3: I'm not sure which sloth. So there is some evidence

1407
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 3: for sloth use in South America. But just maybe to

1408
01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 3: end this this big train of thought, the most damning

1409
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 3: evidence for human causation of the megaphonal extinctions to me

1410
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:06,439
Speaker 3: is you didn't have to do archaeology if you just

1411
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 3: did paleontology around the world, everywhere that people went to,

1412
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:14,880
Speaker 3: and you you just looked for a big extinction event

1413
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,720
Speaker 3: in the last eighty thousand years, and you find one

1414
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 3: in every case, in every land mass that marks human

1415
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 3: arrival percent And it's not just the North American thing, right,

1416
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 3: It's not just a South American thing. It's an Australian thing.

1417
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 3: It's a New Zealand thing. It's a Europe thing. It's

1418
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,600
Speaker 3: an Asia thing. It's all the islands Hawaii, it's a

1419
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:37,360
Speaker 3: Polynesia thing. It's the Caribbean. They were a giant ground

1420
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:39,400
Speaker 3: slaws in Caribbean that survived the places in a hall

1421
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 3: of same transition until six thousand years ago.

1422
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 2: That that, that's one of the biggest smoke and guns

1423
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 2: in my view on the overkill hypothesis. We get Wrangle

1424
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 2: Island off Siberia. No one found it man and man

1425
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 2: stayed there till four thousand years ago. Yeah.

1426
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 5: I remember reading uh, Paul Martin's book Twilight of the Mammoths,

1427
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 5: and I don't I forget where it is in the book.

1428
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 5: It's either at the beginning or the end. But he

1429
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,719
Speaker 5: tracks the spread of humans around the globe and lists

1430
01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 5: all the stuff that went missing at the exact same time,

1431
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:20,680
Speaker 5: and he get through to the end of it. I

1432
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:23,200
Speaker 5: just remember reading that segment and just being like, God,

1433
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:23,960
Speaker 5: it's almost too.

1434
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 3: Perfect, Like how did It's remarkable?

1435
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:27,320
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1436
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 5: I mean like I put that book down and it

1437
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:33,400
Speaker 5: was like you just watched a video on YouTube that's

1438
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:35,240
Speaker 5: meant to convince you of something.

1439
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 3: You know.

1440
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,040
Speaker 2: It was just like I don't nothing else makes sense

1441
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 2: to me. Now you know what else is great about it?

1442
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 2: As you say, what about Africa? Doesn't happen in Africa?

1443
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 2: And it's cause get like co evolution.

1444
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 4: Was.

1445
01:16:49,320 --> 01:16:51,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no there was no sudden arrival. Yeah,

1446
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 2: the animals there had been like hey that little thing,

1447
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:56,679
Speaker 2: you see something walking around two feet watch your ass?

1448
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:58,519
Speaker 2: Like word got out.

1449
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 7: So what would you guys say then, if you're leaning

1450
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:06,439
Speaker 7: towards human cause, what would you say to the people

1451
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 7: that are like, well, it was like the climate was changing,

1452
01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:12,679
Speaker 7: the environment was changing, Like these animals just couldn't adapt.

1453
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 4: The climate environment had been changing for millions of years

1454
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:18,799
Speaker 4: prior to that. That'd be my response.

1455
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 3: You know, the North American and South American cases, they're

1456
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,680
Speaker 3: especially tricky because it happens at this really wild time

1457
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 3: when we're coming out of the glaciation. Right, these massive

1458
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 3: mile mile thick sheets of ice are melting, back sea

1459
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 3: levels rising, all these ecological communities are reorganizing. You can

1460
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 3: imagine that could wreak havoc on animal populations, right, and

1461
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 3: at the same time, you bring in this highly effective

1462
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:50,840
Speaker 3: cultural predator that these animals have no experience with, and

1463
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 3: it's the coincidence of all this stuff in time that

1464
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 3: has made it such like a difficult problem to answer,

1465
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:59,560
Speaker 3: and it's why we're still debating about it. But I

1466
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:04,520
Speaker 3: would say, tell me, tell me a climatic or ecological

1467
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:08,759
Speaker 3: explanation that can drive an extinction event over two continents

1468
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 3: from the Arctic to the tropics and back to the

1469
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,600
Speaker 3: sub arctic in South America, from the arid west to

1470
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 3: the humid east. What climate change can do that? What

1471
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 3: is the actual mechanism that could drive an extinction event

1472
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 3: so severe? And I don't know of one.

1473
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 2: And there's the other thing is that as dramatic as

1474
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 2: that seemed, these species had survived other cycles.

1475
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,800
Speaker 3: Like that, dozens of them.

1476
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 2: I mean, there were there were interglacial periods where sea

1477
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 2: levels were hot, like right now you hear a lot

1478
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 2: about rising sea levels. There were there were periods between

1479
01:18:42,120 --> 01:18:45,479
Speaker 2: glaciations during the Ice Age when like the Pedestal, when

1480
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 2: the Statue of Liberty would be standing in water, like

1481
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 2: the Pedestal would be underwater during some of these periods,

1482
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 2: and the ship didn't go extinct then yep, yeah, And that.

1483
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 3: Was that was the most recent interglacial we call Stage

1484
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 3: five E one hundred and twenty thousand years ago was

1485
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:09,240
Speaker 3: warmer than today. There are hippos living in England, for example. Yeah, yeah,

1486
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 3: and that was one of many previous interglacials. It happened

1487
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,280
Speaker 3: over and over and over and over again. The ice

1488
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 3: sheets oscillated back and forth and back and forth, and

1489
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 3: there are ecological transitions with all these These animals made

1490
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 3: it through, that's right, And tell people show up and

1491
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 3: if we look at the last dates and these animals,

1492
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 3: at least the ones that we have good samples for,

1493
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 3: they all go extinct within three hundred years of Clovis arrival,

1494
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 3: except for caribou. Caribou make it through, bison making moose

1495
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:39,720
Speaker 3: make it through, el Caa make it through. We can

1496
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 3: talk about why if you want to talk about that. Why.

1497
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,800
Speaker 3: So I think there's a single unifying explanation for all

1498
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 3: large mammals survival that even applies to sub Saharan Africa

1499
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 3: and Southeast Asia, which is that large animals survive in

1500
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 3: places where people can't reach the fishing populations in cities

1501
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 3: to drive them to extinction. Okay, so let's just take

1502
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,240
Speaker 3: the case of bison, right, Bison survived, but actually bison

1503
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:07,559
Speaker 3: went extinct over most of their range at the end

1504
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 3: of the place to see and they live coast to coast.

1505
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:12,880
Speaker 3: You find bison and the rivers in Florida, you find

1506
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:15,080
Speaker 3: them at the Olympic Peninsula of Washington, you find them

1507
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 3: in Mexico. Rocha Libreae full of bison. Right today, bison

1508
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 3: pretty much limited to the Mid Continent, or at least

1509
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 3: historically they were. Why is that, Well, when people don't

1510
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:30,439
Speaker 3: have other foods to fall back on. Basically, the only

1511
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:33,560
Speaker 3: way a predator can drive a prey to extinction is

1512
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 3: if they have another food to fall back on. This

1513
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:39,040
Speaker 3: is why a lynx can't drive snowshoe hair to extinction,

1514
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,920
Speaker 3: right because as soon as they that hair population goes down,

1515
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 3: the lynx population goes down with them, and the hair

1516
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 3: rebounds and the lynx rebound.

1517
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:47,559
Speaker 2: That's a good point, man, Yeah.

1518
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:50,360
Speaker 3: Right, So it's hard for a predator to drive its

1519
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,040
Speaker 3: prey to extinction. It can only do that if it

1520
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 3: can switch to something else. Right. So, what I would

1521
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:57,519
Speaker 3: argue if we're talking about bison is that in the

1522
01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 3: Great Plains, there really weren't good switching options for people

1523
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 3: who lived in this part of the world that could

1524
01:21:02,479 --> 01:21:05,600
Speaker 3: really sustain, Like you couldn't drive bison to extinction and

1525
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 3: then switch and basically make your entire economy based on

1526
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 3: pronghorn or something else. And that's also I think the

1527
01:21:14,560 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 3: general story that explains like the survival of animals in

1528
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 3: the hierarchic Let's say in you know, muskox and caribou.

1529
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 3: There's no real switching options there, right, So if you

1530
01:21:26,080 --> 01:21:29,400
Speaker 3: really slam those populations, your population gets slammed right behind them.

1531
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,840
Speaker 3: If we're going to talk about Southeast Asia, we're talking

1532
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 3: about dense tropical forests that there are very few people

1533
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 3: in until very recently. If we're talking about sub Saharan Africa,

1534
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:43,240
Speaker 3: we're talking about a massive, absolutely massive semi arid desert

1535
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:45,840
Speaker 3: that people have been living in in very very low

1536
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:49,360
Speaker 3: population densities for a long time. You didn't really have

1537
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 3: pastoralists people hurting until the last two thousand years, and

1538
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,639
Speaker 3: that's really when those animals started getting slammed in Africa.

1539
01:21:56,160 --> 01:21:58,080
Speaker 3: So in general, I would say, you know, you have

1540
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 3: these large mammals, cases of large mammals survival and environments

1541
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:04,360
Speaker 3: where people simply couldn't reach sufficient densities to drive them

1542
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:04,879
Speaker 3: to extinction.

1543
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 2: Mhmm. You know what comes out of like contemporary biology

1544
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:11,920
Speaker 2: that what you're talking about makes me think of is

1545
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 2: if you look at the Southern caribou herds. So we

1546
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:18,160
Speaker 2: used to have cariboo. I mean when I say used to,

1547
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:21,200
Speaker 2: I mean even in the nineteen hundreds, right, Yeah, you

1548
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 2: know in nineteen twenty, nineteen thirty, you had I don't

1549
01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:29,759
Speaker 2: want to say decent numbers, but you had caribou in Washington,

1550
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:33,879
Speaker 2: you had caribou and the Idaho Panhandle. You had caribou

1551
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 2: in Montana.

1552
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 7: Minnesota, and Maine.

1553
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:40,720
Speaker 2: And I've heard biologist when talking about like, well, what

1554
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 2: was different? Is it be as human landscape development and

1555
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:54,960
Speaker 2: landscape changes happened, it allowed whitetail deer and moose from

1556
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 2: logging practices and road building. It allowed whitetail deer and

1557
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:02,080
Speaker 2: moose to move into these areas. And it made it

1558
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 2: that wolves could sustain themselves because in these areas they

1559
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 2: had like very limited number of caribou and there wasn't

1560
01:23:07,400 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 2: like a wolf predation problem. And it was what you're

1561
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 2: talking about, there's nothing for them to fall back on.

1562
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 2: So as caribou numbers would dwindle, wolf pressure would just

1563
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 2: go away. But now wolves don't move out because they're like,

1564
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 2: they're still picking away on white tailed deer, they're still

1565
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:25,680
Speaker 2: picking away on moose, and any caribou that turns up,

1566
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:27,719
Speaker 2: they're going to hammer it because they're always present.

1567
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:29,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's super interesting.

1568
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:31,600
Speaker 3: It's exactly what I'm talking about. You have to have

1569
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 3: something to fall back on, yep, right, otherwise you get

1570
01:23:35,880 --> 01:23:37,280
Speaker 3: stuck in that predator prey cycle.

1571
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1572
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:41,919
Speaker 3: And I really think you can explain large mammals survival

1573
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,479
Speaker 3: across the globe with that one principle. I mean, you

1574
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 3: guys live in a place. When we live in a

1575
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 3: place where large mammal we're famous for large mammals, right,

1576
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:55,040
Speaker 3: We've got bison and elk and moose, prong horn deer.

1577
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:58,280
Speaker 3: Why are these spaces famous for large animals. Well, because

1578
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,120
Speaker 3: it's hardly anybody who lives here. That's that's really always

1579
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 3: been the case in this part of the world, the

1580
01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 3: Rocky Mountains, because it's high, it's dry, it's a hard

1581
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,040
Speaker 3: place for people to make a living, and it's and

1582
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,679
Speaker 3: it's those places that these large animals can really thrive

1583
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:14,320
Speaker 3: because the predation pressure from humans is really is really low.

1584
01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting points you look at like Appalachi

1585
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:23,839
Speaker 2: or whatever. They had bison, they had elk, they had wolves,

1586
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 2: they had cougars, and for a long time they didn't.

1587
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 2: And then you have these like spots, like you know,

1588
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:33,680
Speaker 2: the Northern Rockies, which was able to hang onto like

1589
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,559
Speaker 2: a relatively intact ecosystem, and you go up to Alaska

1590
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 2: and they were able to hang on to like their

1591
01:24:38,400 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 2: their like suite of megafauna survive the initial human Pulse's

1592
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 2: good theory.

1593
01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 3: I like that.

1594
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 6: What percentage of people in your field believe in the

1595
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:52,400
Speaker 6: blitzkrieg hypothesis and how has that changed during your career?

1596
01:24:53,439 --> 01:24:58,640
Speaker 3: So I'd like to I wish we could answer this independently,

1597
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 3: So I'd love to hear what has to say.

1598
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 6: You can both write down a number.

1599
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:08,000
Speaker 3: The first thing I'll say is that when I was

1600
01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 3: in graduate school, Paul Martin, who was the real champion

1601
01:25:10,280 --> 01:25:12,000
Speaker 3: of that, was a friend of mine. He was retired.

1602
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 3: He was really nice to me, and I go and

1603
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:16,080
Speaker 3: I'd go up to his office and I'd argue with

1604
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 3: him all the time about this. I didn't believe in

1605
01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:20,599
Speaker 3: it at all until I left and did some science,

1606
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:22,400
Speaker 3: and I ultimately decided Paul was right.

1607
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:24,280
Speaker 6: It wasn't because he was nice to you.

1608
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:28,840
Speaker 5: What I wrote a review on that Twilight of the

1609
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 5: Mammoth for Dan's class. I remember, you know, you'd write

1610
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 5: the book reviews and he'd write a couple of sentences

1611
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,840
Speaker 5: at the bottom and the first I'll always remember this,

1612
01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 5: The first thing he wrote on there was Paul Martin

1613
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:41,160
Speaker 5: was a delightful dinner companion.

1614
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 3: Enough, he was a great guy. I'm going to answer.

1615
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:52,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to say somewhere between one and two percent

1616
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 3: and believe this. Oh wow, what would you say, Spencer?

1617
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:58,400
Speaker 2: No, yeah, I mean that's it.

1618
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 4: You're talking to it in dangerous She's here, Steve right

1619
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:01,759
Speaker 4: in the studio.

1620
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:03,040
Speaker 6: So the numbers going down.

1621
01:26:03,439 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 4: I think.

1622
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:08,799
Speaker 3: You know. The point you raised of where's the evidence?

1623
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 3: Like if people drove horse to extinction, why do you

1624
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:14,920
Speaker 3: have two horse kill sites? Is an argument that really

1625
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 3: resonates with a lot of people. Uh huh, they don't really.

1626
01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:20,320
Speaker 3: I would say a lot of people haven't thought about

1627
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:22,200
Speaker 3: the nature of the sample and the sample size that

1628
01:26:22,280 --> 01:26:24,560
Speaker 3: we have. Yeah, and that maybe that's actually quite a

1629
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 3: bit of evidence for horse hunting.

1630
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 4: But yeah, I'll say, like I mean to start with,

1631
01:26:29,680 --> 01:26:33,240
Speaker 4: like very a very low percentage of archaeologists actually study

1632
01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:36,240
Speaker 4: this stuff, right, like Paley Indians. There's a very small

1633
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,960
Speaker 4: segment of archaeology alongside all the complex of people and

1634
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:42,080
Speaker 4: just the people that do everything else. So like, for instance,

1635
01:26:42,120 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 4: in my experience, I didn't really think about this stuff

1636
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 4: at all until I went to Colorado State University for

1637
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:50,439
Speaker 4: my master's and my advisor there, Jason Lebel, was invested

1638
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:52,600
Speaker 4: in Paley Indian stuff and kind of trained me up

1639
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 4: on that. But even then I was like, you know,

1640
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 4: that sounds good, like Monte Verde looks solid. All these

1641
01:26:57,960 --> 01:26:59,680
Speaker 4: pre Clovists. We need to be going out there and

1642
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 4: digging deeper, I guess, And it really wasn't until Todd

1643
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 4: brainwashed me at Wyoming. But it is true that when

1644
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:10,560
Speaker 4: you actually buckle down and start thinking critically about this

1645
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:13,640
Speaker 4: stuff and really invest your intellectual energy into understanding it,

1646
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 4: it just kind of comes into focus. I mean, it's

1647
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 4: really obvious to me that Clovis was basically the first

1648
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 4: people when they drove the Negafont to extinction. But I

1649
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 4: don't think that that's a very popular view for a

1650
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:27,679
Speaker 4: number of reasons. I mean, one, it's just a small

1651
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 4: percentage of archaeologists that are invested in this stuff. And

1652
01:27:30,200 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 4: then among those that do. I just got to say, like,

1653
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:39,599
Speaker 4: archaeology prioritizes discovery and newness, right, and we can't really

1654
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 4: escape that.

1655
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:40,640
Speaker 3: I do.

1656
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:43,920
Speaker 4: I love discovering stuff, and so everyone's constantly wanting to

1657
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:45,360
Speaker 4: push it back. And I think there's a little bit

1658
01:27:45,400 --> 01:27:48,120
Speaker 4: of wishful thinking there, like did we really find the oldest?

1659
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:50,080
Speaker 4: It's kind of a bummer, right, It's like an existential

1660
01:27:50,120 --> 01:27:52,160
Speaker 4: crisis for people that have invested a lot of their

1661
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 4: time and energy into finding the oldest thing to be like,

1662
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:59,439
Speaker 4: well we did it. Now what it's a bit of

1663
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,679
Speaker 4: a it's a bit of a bumber to some folks.

1664
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:05,400
Speaker 5: I think, now, if the number is one or two

1665
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 5: percent of that ninety eight ninety nine percent, how divided

1666
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:13,880
Speaker 5: is that block of thinking?

1667
01:28:14,840 --> 01:28:17,040
Speaker 3: Like are they in terms of the cause? Yeah?

1668
01:28:17,200 --> 01:28:21,519
Speaker 5: Like like are there could you subdivide that quickly into

1669
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 5: a couple of different camps or well, I'm just curious about.

1670
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:28,040
Speaker 3: The I don't think so. I mean, I think Spencer's

1671
01:28:28,120 --> 01:28:30,080
Speaker 3: right that, like most people aren't invested in this. Like

1672
01:28:30,160 --> 01:28:32,760
Speaker 3: if you if you're a Maya archaeologist studying you know,

1673
01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 3: pyramids and things in the Guatemalan jungle, your experience with overkills.

1674
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:40,040
Speaker 3: You know what you learned as a graduate student, then

1675
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 3: what you're teaching your intro archaeology class.

1676
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:44,200
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I.

1677
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:46,560
Speaker 3: Would guess that most of those people believe there's some

1678
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 3: sort of climatic and ecological explanation. The other contenders, by

1679
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 3: the way, is something called hyper disease. Have you heard

1680
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 3: about this? Yeah?

1681
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 4: What about what about that?

1682
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:00,400
Speaker 7: It was just like a combination of factors that Yeah,

1683
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 7: that's all the time.

1684
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:04,800
Speaker 3: It's a really good point, right, Like these are not

1685
01:29:05,200 --> 01:29:07,519
Speaker 3: what we call mutually exclusive. They're all they all could

1686
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:11,200
Speaker 3: be operating simultaneously. And and there's a fourth.

1687
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:14,679
Speaker 2: Who's that dude that's real into those little micro blasts

1688
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 2: or whatever. He's micro glass.

1689
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:18,800
Speaker 3: Richard Firestone was the original guy.

1690
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:20,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny. I did a tour of the

1691
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:25,160
Speaker 2: Lindenmeyer site, and the day I was at Lindenmeyer, linden

1692
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:27,880
Speaker 2: Meyer's big, folesome site. I'm just telling the audience here

1693
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 2: it's kind of cool because it's right on there. It's

1694
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:33,720
Speaker 2: it's north it's between Denver Fort Collins nor is it

1695
01:29:33,800 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 2: North Fork cons And it's a huge they argue a

1696
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:43,240
Speaker 2: huge fulsome winter camp site, and some people argue that

1697
01:29:43,360 --> 01:29:47,600
Speaker 2: it's this sounds a little out there because of the

1698
01:29:48,160 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 2: rock faces on the mountains, it's easy to explain where

1699
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,560
Speaker 2: it is, and that you could have had that this

1700
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:00,640
Speaker 2: might have been a place where fullsome hunters from all

1701
01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:03,439
Speaker 2: across the Great Plains. You could say, no, no, no,

1702
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 2: just follow you'll know, look for the big white slash

1703
01:30:07,360 --> 01:30:10,760
Speaker 2: on the peak and if you've never been there, that's

1704
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 2: where we'll be. Sounds fantastful.

1705
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 4: So the guy that came up with that idea, I

1706
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:18,080
Speaker 4: think is what was my master's advisor, Jason LaBelle. I

1707
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:21,760
Speaker 4: believe him. The big exposure of White River group there,

1708
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 4: it's visible for miles in every direction. And yeah, it's

1709
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 4: right at the margin of the you know the high

1710
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 4: planes in the Colorada Piedmont. It's kind of at this

1711
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 4: eco tone. It makes it all makes sense to me.

1712
01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:35,080
Speaker 4: It's like it's the biggest it's the biggest folsome site

1713
01:30:35,160 --> 01:30:35,639
Speaker 4: that exists.

1714
01:30:36,120 --> 01:30:39,479
Speaker 2: Capital When I was there, there was a dude because

1715
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:42,120
Speaker 2: they've done all this stratigraphy there, so they've done a

1716
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:43,840
Speaker 2: lot of dating on stuff, and there was a guy

1717
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,439
Speaker 2: there collecting those little things. He's looking forward to prove

1718
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 2: that it was like that the place to scene extinctions

1719
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 2: were some kind of bombardment of comets. Comets killed them all.

1720
01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 3: The list What god, I did a study of that.

1721
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:03,040
Speaker 2: Okay, tell me tell people about that idea.

1722
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 3: Oh, go ahead, well where yeah comments?

1723
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:10,840
Speaker 2: Okay, then we can get into the Brody's idea about

1724
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:12,479
Speaker 2: a bunch of shit was happening all at once.

1725
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 3: I think it was the I think it was two

1726
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:16,600
Speaker 3: thousand and seven. This paper was published in what we

1727
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 3: call pen ASS Proceedings sounds like proceedings in the National

1728
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:28,160
Speaker 3: Academy of Sciences PNASS, where they they had they had

1729
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:32,960
Speaker 3: taken these collected sediments from a bunch of terminal places,

1730
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 3: the end of the ice age sites, and they would

1731
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 3: take these sediment columns. So they just collect sediments, you know,

1732
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,560
Speaker 3: in very fine intervals through sort of the place to

1733
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:41,679
Speaker 3: see Holocene transition.

1734
01:31:41,880 --> 01:31:42,640
Speaker 2: What year was this going on?

1735
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:44,439
Speaker 3: Was published in two thousand and seven.

1736
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:47,479
Speaker 2: See that's when I was there two thousand and six,

1737
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:49,519
Speaker 2: two I was working on I was there around two

1738
01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:50,760
Speaker 2: thousand and five, two thousand and six.

1739
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:58,560
Speaker 3: So they found consistently at a certain time point I

1740
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:01,160
Speaker 3: want to say, twelve thousand and seven hundred years before

1741
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 3: present approximately, they claim to find high concentrations of weird things.

1742
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:10,680
Speaker 3: Those things included little tiny metallic spheres. They call them

1743
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:15,040
Speaker 3: titano magnetites. It's like iron oxides with titanium, little tiny

1744
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:18,479
Speaker 3: spheres like the diameter of your hair. They said they

1745
01:32:18,520 --> 01:32:21,400
Speaker 3: had high concentrations of magnetic particles, so they would literally

1746
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,479
Speaker 3: like put this sediment in water and then run a

1747
01:32:24,640 --> 01:32:27,160
Speaker 3: super strong magnet through it, collect the magnetic particles and

1748
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 3: count them up through these sediment columns. They say they'd

1749
01:32:29,760 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 3: peak right at this this horizon. They did the same

1750
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:36,000
Speaker 3: thing for what are called platinum group elements like iridium

1751
01:32:36,200 --> 01:32:38,920
Speaker 3: that's used to identify the extinction of the dinosaurs. When

1752
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:42,599
Speaker 3: that meteorite hit and there's this high iridium concentration, all

1753
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 3: this weird stuff, and all of us, a lot of

1754
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 3: us who have been digging sites like this and digging

1755
01:32:49,040 --> 01:32:51,479
Speaker 3: through sediments of this age, were like, Oh my god,

1756
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:54,320
Speaker 3: it's all this weird extraterrestrial stuff that we had never

1757
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:56,040
Speaker 3: seen before. We'd been digging through it our whole life.

1758
01:32:56,080 --> 01:32:59,320
Speaker 3: I just wanted to just see it myself. And I

1759
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:00,800
Speaker 3: was working on the site at the time, and I

1760
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 3: had friends who were working on sites where we could

1761
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 3: collect these samples and just replicate do what they did,

1762
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:08,000
Speaker 3: and replicate their analyzes, and we failed to replicate any

1763
01:33:08,040 --> 01:33:12,719
Speaker 3: of them. We didn't find high concentrations of microspherreals, magnetic particles,

1764
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,960
Speaker 3: or platinum group elements. Completely failed.

1765
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:19,960
Speaker 2: For what that's worth, Where does that idea stand right now?

1766
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:21,639
Speaker 2: Is it fashionable in your community?

1767
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:26,240
Speaker 3: No? No, it's complete. It's funny. You know. We thought

1768
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 3: that their early kind of pushback against it would make

1769
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 3: it go away. It it didn't. They're still publishing papers

1770
01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:34,439
Speaker 3: and support of it. And I would say the vast

1771
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:38,519
Speaker 3: majority of people in geology and archaeology don't take it seriously.

1772
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 3: I mean, a massive extraterrestrial impact that drives an extinction

1773
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 3: over two continents doesn't leave like a whisper of dust.

1774
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 3: There ought to be like massive geologic evidence for craters

1775
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 3: and tsunamis and fires, and it's just not there.

1776
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 6: If it's two percent right now, believe in Blitzkreek, what

1777
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:01,120
Speaker 6: was it twenty years ago? What do you think it'll

1778
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:02,040
Speaker 6: be twenty years from now.

1779
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 4: That's a good.

1780
01:34:04,600 --> 01:34:05,599
Speaker 3: It's a really good question.

1781
01:34:06,120 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 4: When I break down these these arguments and you kind

1782
01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:10,000
Speaker 4: of look at the timing, I would say that we're

1783
01:34:10,040 --> 01:34:14,000
Speaker 4: like in a post a post Clovis first world longer

1784
01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:15,880
Speaker 4: than we were ever in a Clovis first world. At

1785
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 4: this point, the Clovis First paradigm was basically like let's

1786
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:22,040
Speaker 4: say nineteen seventy three with Paul Martin's paper that was.

1787
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:25,200
Speaker 3: The height up to, like a pinnacle up to basically.

1788
01:34:24,960 --> 01:34:29,400
Speaker 4: Like nineteen ninety seven when Monte Verde became accepted as

1789
01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:31,320
Speaker 4: a pre Clovis site, that was kind of like the

1790
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:35,000
Speaker 4: Clovis First era. Ever since monte Verde came out, it's

1791
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:38,599
Speaker 4: basically just been gaining more acceptance that there was stuff

1792
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:39,599
Speaker 4: before Clovis.

1793
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:41,679
Speaker 6: So guys aren't a endangered species.

1794
01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,679
Speaker 5: You're like the guys at the record store saying there's

1795
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:46,000
Speaker 5: no good music anymore.

1796
01:34:46,400 --> 01:34:50,559
Speaker 4: We're are habitat fragmented. There's like a relic population in Kansas,

1797
01:34:50,680 --> 01:34:51,439
Speaker 4: some in Alaska.

1798
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:56,920
Speaker 3: I have this of maybe schizophrenic perspective about it, Like

1799
01:34:57,120 --> 01:34:59,800
Speaker 3: sometimes I look at the record and I kind of

1800
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:02,479
Speaker 3: feel like Neo in the matrix, like I can see

1801
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:04,760
Speaker 3: something that nobody else can see, like, oh my god,

1802
01:35:04,840 --> 01:35:08,320
Speaker 3: it's so obvious that Clovis is first. And then half

1803
01:35:08,360 --> 01:35:10,400
Speaker 3: the time I feel like a guy with a tenfoil hat,

1804
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 3: like believing in crazy conspiracies, like why the hell can

1805
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:16,679
Speaker 3: I see what everybody else sees?

1806
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:20,519
Speaker 6: What would need to happen you convince everyone else to

1807
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 6: agree with you.

1808
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:25,519
Speaker 3: Oh no, that'll never happen. I mean archaeology, the record

1809
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 3: is too crappy. We all look at the same evidence

1810
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:30,280
Speaker 3: and interpret it like completely differently. It's pretty amazing. That way,

1811
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:31,880
Speaker 3: we're never gonna get consensus.

1812
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:34,439
Speaker 2: There's a thing that could happen that would work the

1813
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:35,599
Speaker 2: other way for sure.

1814
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:36,120
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

1815
01:35:36,160 --> 01:35:37,519
Speaker 2: The thing that could happen work that a way is

1816
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:42,040
Speaker 2: someone finds a bulletproof seventeen thousand year old site. Yeah bulletproof, Yeah, yeah,

1817
01:35:42,320 --> 01:35:43,680
Speaker 2: they sure absolutely.

1818
01:35:44,040 --> 01:35:46,240
Speaker 4: I would love for that to happen. Honestly, it would

1819
01:35:46,240 --> 01:35:48,479
Speaker 4: be great to open up this whole other world and

1820
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:51,240
Speaker 4: we knew nothing about a whole other record to study.

1821
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:52,720
Speaker 4: I just I don't think that's happened yet.

1822
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:55,479
Speaker 2: You know, if I had to crystal ball it now,

1823
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,839
Speaker 2: I always put it like this, just to make a graphic,

1824
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:01,519
Speaker 2: like God has a gun to your head and he

1825
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:04,759
Speaker 2: says what happened to the megafauna? And he knows he's ominiscient,

1826
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:09,479
Speaker 2: and you have to guess right or else you die.

1827
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:12,479
Speaker 2: So the So the screws are to you, there's no

1828
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:17,040
Speaker 2: room for playing games. I would say, in that moment,

1829
01:36:17,200 --> 01:36:21,679
Speaker 2: my life's on the line, right, I would say, something

1830
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 2: was going on where there was turmoil, numbers were depressed,

1831
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:34,360
Speaker 2: there was some upheaval, and into this upheaval came humans

1832
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 2: and and uh and and tipped it, tipped it to extinction.

1833
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:45,880
Speaker 2: But something was going on where it wasn't like peak. Yeah,

1834
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:53,400
Speaker 2: and then but maybe it would be like forsake me, sure,

1835
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:56,080
Speaker 2: you know, but I'm saying if I had to make

1836
01:36:56,120 --> 01:36:56,840
Speaker 2: a life or death.

1837
01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 3: So vans Haynes made that argument, and he had good

1838
01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 3: He worked on these sites in the San Patrio rebellion, Arizona,

1839
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:06,280
Speaker 3: these beautiful Clovi sites, really well preserved surfaces, and he

1840
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 3: thought there's really clear evidence that when people were there

1841
01:37:09,080 --> 01:37:11,880
Speaker 3: at Murray Springs and Laner and Blackwater draw that there

1842
01:37:11,960 --> 01:37:15,519
Speaker 3: was a drought and that these these mammoth populations were depressed.

1843
01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 3: They're kind of stuck to these water holes and people

1844
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:21,920
Speaker 3: were just basically the coupd of gra And it's a

1845
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:24,480
Speaker 3: it's a it's a really good argument for the Southwest.

1846
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:29,200
Speaker 3: But we're talking about the Southwest into massive continents, right,

1847
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:31,640
Speaker 3: So again, if we're going to have some kind of

1848
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:35,320
Speaker 3: ecological upheaval that spans two continents from the Amazon to

1849
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:37,920
Speaker 3: the East Coast, what is it.

1850
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:40,679
Speaker 4: I also feel like we should We haven't talked about

1851
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:41,400
Speaker 4: Alaska yet.

1852
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:43,519
Speaker 2: Oh him, use some Alaska stuff, man.

1853
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:46,679
Speaker 4: So like there are pre Clovia sites in the Western Hemisphere,

1854
01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 4: they're in Alaska.

1855
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 2: That's what it makes sense.

1856
01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:55,200
Speaker 4: There's clear evidence of human occupations, clear camp sites about

1857
01:37:55,240 --> 01:37:59,880
Speaker 4: fourteen years old. They contained mammoth remains, they contained these

1858
01:38:00,000 --> 01:38:04,120
Speaker 4: little microblades, seemingly among the first technologies that people brought

1859
01:38:04,160 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 4: here from Northeast Asia.

1860
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:07,439
Speaker 3: You see the same technology in Northeast Asia.

1861
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's exactly what you'd expect for the first people

1862
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:14,639
Speaker 4: in the Western Hemisphere. They're carrying Asian technology and living

1863
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:15,920
Speaker 4: in Alaska.

1864
01:38:15,800 --> 01:38:17,680
Speaker 3: And exactly when you'd expect to sam too.

1865
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:21,519
Speaker 4: And that's a good point, man, And it coincides with

1866
01:38:21,920 --> 01:38:25,280
Speaker 4: what we did a study back in twenty fifteen looking

1867
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 4: at when megafaunal populations decline between Alaska, United States south

1868
01:38:30,920 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 4: of the ice sheets in South America, basically slightly before

1869
01:38:35,040 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 4: we find archaeological evidence for human occupation in Alaska, megafauna

1870
01:38:39,120 --> 01:38:43,040
Speaker 4: starts to decline to extinction. And that's important because when

1871
01:38:43,120 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 4: you look at the archaeological survey in Alaska that's been

1872
01:38:45,400 --> 01:38:47,720
Speaker 4: done compared to that that's been done south of the

1873
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 4: ice sheets, it's very slim. There's like two highways and

1874
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 4: a few little patches of archaeological research and lo and behold.

1875
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:58,880
Speaker 4: Everywhere people look in Alaska they find pre club A sites,

1876
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,200
Speaker 4: especially in this place called then in a valley and

1877
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:04,360
Speaker 4: outside of Fairbanks, just a lot of pre Clovius evidence there.

1878
01:39:04,360 --> 01:39:06,160
Speaker 4: And we haven't really looked that hard in Alaska. It's

1879
01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 4: super difficult place to do archaeology, but we found pre

1880
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:12,720
Speaker 4: Clovid sites immediately, despite the one hundred and fifty years

1881
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:15,400
Speaker 4: of research we've done south of the ice sheets very little.

1882
01:39:15,680 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 3: And they're normal.

1883
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're normal.

1884
01:39:18,600 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 3: It's not weird shit. It's like chipstone around hearth features,

1885
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:24,599
Speaker 3: butchered animal bones. It's normal stuff. And what we call

1886
01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:28,200
Speaker 3: distreet discrete stratigraphic levels, meaning they're just like really clear

1887
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:30,120
Speaker 3: occupations if you're to look through them.

1888
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:30,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1889
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:34,759
Speaker 7: Yeah, So those Do you think those people hit Alaska

1890
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 7: and just stayed or did they, like.

1891
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:40,400
Speaker 2: Some states, get absorbed into Clovis or.

1892
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 3: I would say the ancestors of Clovis, Some stayed and

1893
01:39:46,040 --> 01:39:46,800
Speaker 3: some move south.

1894
01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:50,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, have you ever been to or looked at the

1895
01:39:50,120 --> 01:39:51,320
Speaker 2: stuff from the MASA site?

1896
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:56,639
Speaker 3: I have the book. I've never seen this stuff. That's cool.

1897
01:39:57,120 --> 01:39:58,920
Speaker 2: That's not as old though.

1898
01:39:59,040 --> 01:39:59,960
Speaker 3: No cool.

1899
01:40:00,360 --> 01:40:02,240
Speaker 2: I went to that masa. It's badass, man.

1900
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1901
01:40:03,320 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 2: You can just picture people wanting to get up on

1902
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:06,000
Speaker 2: that thing and look around.

1903
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 3: You know.

1904
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 2: I didn't go on top of my sat and looked

1905
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:11,240
Speaker 2: at it, you know. But that's not old, right.

1906
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 3: It's place to see it. It's it's like maybe twelve.

1907
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:19,080
Speaker 2: Seven sticks in my head or I don't know something.

1908
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe two thousand years after people arrive in Alaska

1909
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:24,400
Speaker 3: and it's probably you know, the argument is those are

1910
01:40:24,479 --> 01:40:27,240
Speaker 3: planes bison hunters coming back back north fist in the

1911
01:40:28,720 --> 01:40:29,280
Speaker 3: fact form.

1912
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 2: That's what That's what they had introduced me to, is

1913
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:36,600
Speaker 2: this idea of backfill. Ye like that you get the

1914
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:39,000
Speaker 2: initial waves of people coming through, but then at some

1915
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:41,719
Speaker 2: point in time people move back to their direction.

1916
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:45,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, migrations kind of like quitous clouds up the record.

1917
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:52,200
Speaker 6: What part of the America has moved on from Clovis

1918
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:55,360
Speaker 6: the quickest, in which ones held out the longest.

1919
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:59,479
Speaker 3: Probably the Great Basin was the quickest. It's Spencer. Spencer

1920
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:03,439
Speaker 3: mentioned this some really old stemmed projectile points that that

1921
01:41:04,240 --> 01:41:07,120
Speaker 3: some Great Basin archaeologists argue are as old, if not

1922
01:41:07,200 --> 01:41:11,400
Speaker 3: older than Clovis. You also have Clovis points in the

1923
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:13,800
Speaker 3: Great Basin, but there's some very old old dates on

1924
01:41:14,160 --> 01:41:19,040
Speaker 3: these stemmed projectile points in the Great Basin. I don't

1925
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:21,360
Speaker 3: know that we have really good age control on post

1926
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:28,400
Speaker 3: Clovis projectile point types except in the Rocky Mountains. And

1927
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 3: we you know, I had Laprel. Another really cool thing

1928
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:35,080
Speaker 3: we found is a fulsome point and we have we

1929
01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 3: we appear to have a single occupation where people killed

1930
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:44,400
Speaker 3: killed mammos, killed bison. It was buried by a flood

1931
01:41:44,520 --> 01:41:47,040
Speaker 3: probably ten years after they killed that mammoth. And on

1932
01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:50,080
Speaker 3: the same surface we've got one Clovis point and one

1933
01:41:50,160 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 3: fulsome point. This would be the oldest case of fulsome

1934
01:41:53,160 --> 01:41:56,240
Speaker 3: ever found, so and that would probably be you know,

1935
01:41:56,600 --> 01:41:59,720
Speaker 3: that's pretty early. We know Clovis persists after that. So

1936
01:41:59,800 --> 01:42:01,920
Speaker 3: this like this long period of overlap where both are

1937
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:02,400
Speaker 3: being made.

1938
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:05,519
Speaker 7: So there was this you know, major extinction event with

1939
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:10,800
Speaker 7: large animals like what happened to the Clovis culture, Like

1940
01:42:11,080 --> 01:42:14,960
Speaker 7: when that extinction event happened, did they just what happened

1941
01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:17,160
Speaker 7: to them? Did they evolve into other cultures?

1942
01:42:17,240 --> 01:42:17,559
Speaker 2: Did they?

1943
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,840
Speaker 4: I think it's pretty clear now. I mean it's it's

1944
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:22,320
Speaker 4: Fulsome in the Rocky Mountains at least, and then other

1945
01:42:22,360 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 4: regions the United States have these other post Clovis fluted

1946
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:25,879
Speaker 4: point traditions.

1947
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:28,479
Speaker 7: Because when you talk, when you give them these different names,

1948
01:42:28,520 --> 01:42:31,920
Speaker 7: like Clovis Falsome, it's like there was this people and.

1949
01:42:31,960 --> 01:42:33,479
Speaker 4: Then there was this Yeah, we should you know what

1950
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 4: I make that distinction? I mean they weren't Clovis wasn't

1951
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,000
Speaker 4: a people. It was a stone tool technology.

1952
01:42:38,280 --> 01:42:39,880
Speaker 3: Where did cell phone people come from?

1953
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:44,960
Speaker 4: Yeah? And the way I look at it and like

1954
01:42:45,360 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 4: this is like getting into the realm of handwaving. But

1955
01:42:48,240 --> 01:42:51,599
Speaker 4: fullso points are a lot smaller than Clovis points if

1956
01:42:51,600 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 4: you put them side by side. You oftentimes don't get

1957
01:42:53,680 --> 01:42:55,760
Speaker 4: that when you're just looking at books and illustrations of

1958
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:58,360
Speaker 4: this stuff. But full some points are generally at least

1959
01:42:58,400 --> 01:42:59,800
Speaker 4: half the size of Clovis points.

1960
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:00,760
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna make it.

1961
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:05,040
Speaker 7: Demanded something smaller than.

1962
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:11,920
Speaker 4: Well, right here, Clovis points have a distinct function from

1963
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:15,080
Speaker 4: Folsome points. Maybe they're a thrusting Spearit not an Atlatal dart.

1964
01:43:15,760 --> 01:43:20,280
Speaker 4: You introduce another weaponry system into your toolkit and they're

1965
01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 4: used at the same time.

1966
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:25,960
Speaker 7: And that also effect the culture, right Like, so, I.

1967
01:43:25,960 --> 01:43:29,080
Speaker 4: Mean Clovis points basically disappear when when the mamos disappeared,

1968
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:35,160
Speaker 4: So they're probably a pretty closely linked thing that Clovis

1969
01:43:35,200 --> 01:43:37,920
Speaker 4: points were used to haunt mammas, and then once mammos

1970
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:40,320
Speaker 4: were gone, didn't have much need for him anymore, and

1971
01:43:40,439 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 4: people started making these little falsome points a lot more often.

1972
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:44,840
Speaker 2: You don't need to hold I was just showing it.

1973
01:43:44,920 --> 01:43:46,360
Speaker 4: I want to look at you.

1974
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:51,720
Speaker 3: You very quickly start seeing regional diversification and in the

1975
01:43:51,760 --> 01:43:53,800
Speaker 3: way people are making a living right. And one thing,

1976
01:43:54,160 --> 01:43:57,400
Speaker 3: I visited this site fiendal Mundo in Mexico, and I

1977
01:43:57,520 --> 01:43:59,519
Speaker 3: visited another site where they found some Clovis points in

1978
01:43:59,600 --> 01:44:03,439
Speaker 3: the surface. One thing that really struck me there was here,

1979
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:05,960
Speaker 3: you're looking at this Mexican Clovis point. Right. You drop

1980
01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:09,720
Speaker 3: that in Wyoming, you wouldn't know it's in Mexico. You

1981
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:12,759
Speaker 3: drop it in South Carolina, you wouldn't know it's from Mexico.

1982
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:16,120
Speaker 3: And they find them right with these gomfit these with

1983
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 3: these elephants. But in this same site, which is this

1984
01:44:18,479 --> 01:44:21,920
Speaker 3: really highly eroded surface site, I'm seeing marine shells brought

1985
01:44:21,960 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 3: in from the Gulf of Sea of Cortes and ceramics.

1986
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:25,200
Speaker 4: Right.

1987
01:44:25,240 --> 01:44:29,240
Speaker 3: You start to see this super regional specialization. But in Clovis,

1988
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:33,840
Speaker 3: everybody's doing the same damn thing everywhere, and it's it's

1989
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:37,519
Speaker 3: really really striking. You go to Missouri at the Kimswick site,

1990
01:44:37,560 --> 01:44:43,680
Speaker 3: you've got a dead mast, it on full big Clovis points, Mexico, Wyoming.

1991
01:44:43,880 --> 01:44:46,080
Speaker 2: Dudes had it figured out that.

1992
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:47,559
Speaker 3: Was the main way to make a living.

1993
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:50,840
Speaker 7: Apparently what was going on on the west coast, you

1994
01:44:50,920 --> 01:44:53,439
Speaker 7: know with the kel you had the Kelp Highway theory,

1995
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:57,120
Speaker 7: Like what archaeology is there at the same time as closed.

1996
01:44:57,200 --> 01:44:59,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good question. So the first thing

1997
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 3: I should note is, you know, the coastal migration thing

1998
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:06,840
Speaker 3: has been around for a long time. The idea has

1999
01:45:06,840 --> 01:45:09,040
Speaker 3: been around since least the nineteen forties that this was

2000
01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:13,000
Speaker 3: another way to get around the glaciers. It really became

2001
01:45:13,120 --> 01:45:16,000
Speaker 3: in vogue in nineteen ninety seven when mona verity was

2002
01:45:16,040 --> 01:45:19,280
Speaker 3: accepted to be pre Clovis and real because the argument

2003
01:45:19,439 --> 01:45:21,080
Speaker 3: was in order to get them down there that early.

2004
01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:23,439
Speaker 3: The ice ree corder simply wasn't an option to the

2005
01:45:23,479 --> 01:45:27,160
Speaker 3: coast had to be the case, right. So Ever since then,

2006
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:32,120
Speaker 3: like everybody has assumed it's the coast, I should say

2007
01:45:32,160 --> 01:45:35,760
Speaker 3: that these again aren't mutually exclusive. You could take both roots, right,

2008
01:45:36,840 --> 01:45:39,320
Speaker 3: But there's been a huge amount of work now on

2009
01:45:39,400 --> 01:45:41,720
Speaker 3: the West coast because of that, because everybody's kind of

2010
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:46,680
Speaker 3: assumed that that's the entry point. And my understanding is

2011
01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:49,200
Speaker 3: that there is very little archaeological evidence from the place

2012
01:45:49,200 --> 01:45:49,920
Speaker 3: to seen at all, Like.

2013
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:53,680
Speaker 7: You're not seeing different technologies at the same time as

2014
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:54,519
Speaker 7: Clovis was.

2015
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:57,599
Speaker 3: Going on, or we don't really have anything Clovis age

2016
01:45:57,640 --> 01:45:59,599
Speaker 3: over there. The closest thing is maybe on the Channel

2017
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:03,080
Speaker 3: Island in California. There's very early humans are getting out

2018
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:03,800
Speaker 3: there pretty early.

2019
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:06,040
Speaker 4: I don't think there's any weaponry associated. Now.

2020
01:46:06,080 --> 01:46:08,960
Speaker 3: There's some really funky points out there, but but that

2021
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:11,200
Speaker 3: stuff's kind of hard to date because you're dating off

2022
01:46:11,240 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 3: in marine shells and there's a lot of old carbon

2023
01:46:18,040 --> 01:46:19,840
Speaker 3: in the ocean, so these dates tend to be too old.

2024
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:22,120
Speaker 3: There's there's a very famous human remains.

2025
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 2: From Prince Wales.

2026
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:27,360
Speaker 3: Well not you're thinking about Alaska. No, I'm talking about

2027
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:31,240
Speaker 3: on the Channel Islands. Oh yeah, Arlington Springs woman. But

2028
01:46:31,320 --> 01:46:34,280
Speaker 3: she had a lot of marine resources in her diet,

2029
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:36,040
Speaker 3: which means the dates are too old. But it was

2030
01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:38,040
Speaker 3: kind of like it was basically a Clovis age date

2031
01:46:38,080 --> 01:46:41,920
Speaker 3: before you did the correction for that. But we really

2032
01:46:41,960 --> 01:46:44,840
Speaker 3: don't have a good a good sample of dated stuff

2033
01:46:44,880 --> 01:46:46,840
Speaker 3: from the Pacific coast. I will say there are Clovis

2034
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,439
Speaker 3: points that have been found basically on the beach. There's

2035
01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:52,479
Speaker 3: one from an island off the coast of Mexico a

2036
01:46:52,560 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 3: Clovis point.

2037
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:57,600
Speaker 2: But you're also looking for sites and coastal rainforest.

2038
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:00,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really challenging environment.

2039
01:47:00,280 --> 01:47:02,240
Speaker 2: You know, you know it makes me optimistic though. I

2040
01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 2: was with the geologist up there who works in Alaska,

2041
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:09,719
Speaker 2: and you know, you always heard when people talk about

2042
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:13,200
Speaker 2: the Kelp Highway theory or the coastal migration theory, everybody's like, yeah,

2043
01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:17,519
Speaker 2: but all that stuff's underwater. But he was, he has

2044
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:21,599
Speaker 2: these shoreline maps, tons of it's not because the ice

2045
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:25,800
Speaker 2: a static rebound, that's right. So when you had all

2046
01:47:25,840 --> 01:47:27,640
Speaker 2: that ice on top of the I'm not telling you,

2047
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:30,400
Speaker 2: I'm telling folks at home when all that ice was

2048
01:47:30,640 --> 01:47:34,040
Speaker 2: on the laying on the earth. It's so heavy to

2049
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:38,160
Speaker 2: push the crust down and sank it. And there's still

2050
01:47:38,240 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 2: like seismic activity in southeast Alaska from as the ice

2051
01:47:42,200 --> 01:47:44,640
Speaker 2: melted off, the land pops back up. So when you

2052
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:47,280
Speaker 2: look at these shorelines, it's this like it's this wave

2053
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:51,839
Speaker 2: like undulating thing where some of that ice age shoreline

2054
01:47:51,880 --> 01:47:53,800
Speaker 2: is one hundred feet up the hill.

2055
01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:54,639
Speaker 4: Yep.

2056
01:47:55,200 --> 01:47:58,320
Speaker 2: So it's like there could be stuff there. Well, I

2057
01:47:58,400 --> 01:48:02,760
Speaker 2: mean yeah, I mean, like, like what I'm saying is

2058
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:04,719
Speaker 2: you can't just say, well, it's all underwater.

2059
01:48:04,880 --> 01:48:08,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have no doubt that there's some archaeology underwater.

2060
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:09,759
Speaker 4: I think it's true they've.

2061
01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:14,280
Speaker 2: Found some underwater, but I'm saying it's not uniformly all

2062
01:48:14,360 --> 01:48:16,960
Speaker 2: at the same depth. It's like a real hodgepodge of

2063
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:20,840
Speaker 2: of like you know, the the geological history is a

2064
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:23,200
Speaker 2: real hodgepodge of stuff that's way up in the forest

2065
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:25,519
Speaker 2: or down underwater. So what I'm saying is I might

2066
01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:26,679
Speaker 2: find me an old ass site.

2067
01:48:26,880 --> 01:48:29,120
Speaker 4: Well, there's that notion, right that some of some of

2068
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:32,479
Speaker 4: the isostatic rebounds kind of kept some of these coastal

2069
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:37,439
Speaker 4: areas above water, but also why would you expect that

2070
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:41,080
Speaker 4: people would never maybe go in inland for a night

2071
01:48:41,240 --> 01:48:44,280
Speaker 4: and form a campsite, right, I mean, basically the assumption

2072
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:51,000
Speaker 4: is that people are just living on the beach because, yeah, dude,

2073
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:54,160
Speaker 4: have you been there? The beach is nice. Sometimes Like

2074
01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:57,400
Speaker 4: it's not that it's nice, it's.

2075
01:48:57,479 --> 01:49:01,080
Speaker 2: It's an overwhelming abundance of food.

2076
01:49:02,120 --> 01:49:05,360
Speaker 3: It's not easy to get, not easy to it's in

2077
01:49:05,439 --> 01:49:05,760
Speaker 3: the water.

2078
01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:06,800
Speaker 6: No.

2079
01:49:07,360 --> 01:49:10,800
Speaker 2: All right, but but dude, listen, I'm telling you, get

2080
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:15,280
Speaker 2: into the shellfish and the salmon. Go talk to anybody

2081
01:49:15,320 --> 01:49:16,000
Speaker 2: who lives there now.

2082
01:49:17,080 --> 01:49:19,040
Speaker 3: All right, but but picture yourself at the end of

2083
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:22,400
Speaker 3: the ice age, and you know, you come down into Seattle,

2084
01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:24,920
Speaker 3: and that's like, we could live on shellfish and ignore

2085
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:30,280
Speaker 3: these mastodons and bison. Ye or after these big animals

2086
01:49:31,479 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 3: have a shellfish.

2087
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 2: Don't hurt. But they've had coastal No. But but they've

2088
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 2: had coastal cultures there. They've had coastal cultures there continuously.

2089
01:49:40,439 --> 01:49:41,639
Speaker 3: I get that's the argument.

2090
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:45,360
Speaker 2: Always more abundant, who were always more abundant than interior peoples,

2091
01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:48,200
Speaker 2: and even many of the interior peoples and were going

2092
01:49:48,240 --> 01:49:51,519
Speaker 2: to Alaska, the Pacific Northwest, many of the interior peoples

2093
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:56,519
Speaker 2: are still reliant on anadromous fish like marine resources. You

2094
01:49:56,600 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 2: can't ignore it.

2095
01:49:57,760 --> 01:49:59,280
Speaker 3: And that part of the world is a good reason

2096
01:49:59,320 --> 01:50:02,040
Speaker 3: why you do that. Now, Yeah, I'm saying in the

2097
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,400
Speaker 3: place to see, that's probably not your best option. Also,

2098
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:07,519
Speaker 3: if we're talking about that, look, let's let's look at

2099
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:12,160
Speaker 3: this first argument. Let's look at this idea. People are

2100
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:16,479
Speaker 3: have thousands of years of coastal adaptation. Where's that the

2101
01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:20,280
Speaker 3: archaeological record. That's an assumption. Two people are living in

2102
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:24,800
Speaker 3: high population densities. Where are they? Why can't we find them? Three?

2103
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:27,800
Speaker 3: We don't really see intensive use submarine resources. And tell

2104
01:50:28,000 --> 01:50:30,920
Speaker 3: let's say four or five thousand years after Clovis in

2105
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:32,800
Speaker 3: that part of the world. Yeah, part of that is

2106
01:50:32,880 --> 01:50:33,599
Speaker 3: sea level rise.

2107
01:50:34,360 --> 01:50:35,360
Speaker 4: Still hm.

2108
01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:37,800
Speaker 3: You know, I think part of the success of the

2109
01:50:37,880 --> 01:50:40,759
Speaker 3: Kelp Highway hypothesis is that it's a good marketing campaign.

2110
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:43,439
Speaker 3: And I want to I want to I want to

2111
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 3: rebrand the Ice Free Corridor to the Meat Highway.

2112
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 4: Oh. I was pretty enamored by the Kelp Highway thing too.

2113
01:50:54,040 --> 01:50:56,519
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a really elegant theory and I'm not

2114
01:50:56,840 --> 01:50:59,120
Speaker 4: I'm really not shitting on it at all. It's it's

2115
01:50:59,160 --> 01:50:59,800
Speaker 4: a cool it's cool.

2116
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:01,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes a ton of sense when you think

2117
01:51:01,760 --> 01:51:04,920
Speaker 2: about I mean, plus, here's the thing. You can like

2118
01:51:05,240 --> 01:51:07,800
Speaker 2: the life in kelp beds, and then you can eat

2119
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:08,560
Speaker 2: the kelt.

2120
01:51:08,760 --> 01:51:10,600
Speaker 4: I mean it makes sense until you look at the

2121
01:51:10,840 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 4: until you look at the evidence.

2122
01:51:12,160 --> 01:51:19,040
Speaker 7: But meat versus shellfish? But what what what's saying that

2123
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:21,919
Speaker 7: they weren't killing large marine mammals.

2124
01:51:22,360 --> 01:51:25,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, in fact that if there's a coastal thing, that's

2125
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:28,559
Speaker 3: what I think they would be doing is focusing their

2126
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:32,120
Speaker 3: effort on large marine mammals mostly you know, seals, maybe

2127
01:51:32,160 --> 01:51:32,599
Speaker 3: some whales.

2128
01:51:32,760 --> 01:51:35,000
Speaker 4: And being reminded of like Ben Potter's study, that of

2129
01:51:35,120 --> 01:51:38,360
Speaker 4: city and sourcing study. You probably know more details about

2130
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:41,799
Speaker 4: it than I do. But basically, an archaeologist in Alaska,

2131
01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:45,040
Speaker 4: great archaeologists out of out of Fairbanks named Ben Potter,

2132
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:48,280
Speaker 4: did a big subsidian sourcing study of all the oldest

2133
01:51:48,280 --> 01:51:50,920
Speaker 4: sites that they know about in Alaska. The hypothesis was

2134
01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:54,240
Speaker 4: basically like, if people were tied to coastal regions, then

2135
01:51:54,280 --> 01:51:57,080
Speaker 4: we should have coastal obsidian in these sites because there

2136
01:51:57,120 --> 01:51:59,639
Speaker 4: are obsidian sources kind of right on where that corridor

2137
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:02,960
Speaker 4: would be. Okay Lo and behold, every single piece of

2138
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:05,719
Speaker 4: obsidian used in these oldest sites in Alaska. The people

2139
01:52:05,760 --> 01:52:09,559
Speaker 4: that are the ancestors of the first Americans, they're from

2140
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:12,719
Speaker 4: interior sources, from mountain sources, and the interior of Alaska,

2141
01:52:13,160 --> 01:52:16,559
Speaker 4: and really no evidence that people are utilizing the coastal

2142
01:52:16,640 --> 01:52:17,799
Speaker 4: regions of Alaska.

2143
01:52:20,479 --> 01:52:24,240
Speaker 2: Oh, I'll settle on this. If I took your ass

2144
01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:27,680
Speaker 2: and dropped you off somewhere on like wherever, Okay, some

2145
01:52:27,960 --> 01:52:32,680
Speaker 2: remote area in southeast Alaska, I've been there well, and

2146
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:34,360
Speaker 2: you know what, you know where, I wouldn't wind up

2147
01:52:34,360 --> 01:52:39,760
Speaker 2: finding you up in the mountains. I would reach down

2148
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:43,480
Speaker 2: on the beach, getting fat off, kept green, laying and clams.

2149
01:52:43,360 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 3: Until I got enough expertise to effectively hunt bear and caribou.

2150
01:52:50,720 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 2: Dude, that's a great point. Yeah, No, I got you. No,

2151
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 2: what you're saying is good, but it is. It is

2152
01:52:55,439 --> 01:52:58,720
Speaker 2: an enticing idea. And then I don't want to go

2153
01:52:58,760 --> 01:53:00,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to go too deep in this. But

2154
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:02,040
Speaker 2: then I don't know, if you know, like Meltzer's whole

2155
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:07,200
Speaker 2: deal with going up and all that, trying to put

2156
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:11,960
Speaker 2: the trying to figure out is there any kind of

2157
01:53:12,040 --> 01:53:17,240
Speaker 2: like plant pollen evidence of an ice free corridor, and

2158
01:53:17,320 --> 01:53:19,720
Speaker 2: so they go up to these places on the you know,

2159
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:23,479
Speaker 2: where the ice free corridor supposedly existed, and they go

2160
01:53:23,560 --> 01:53:26,160
Speaker 2: into these ponds and pull up sediments and try to

2161
01:53:26,200 --> 01:53:28,200
Speaker 2: go find sediments that would be at the right time.

2162
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:31,559
Speaker 2: So you go thirteen thousand years ago, and he'd be like, Okay,

2163
01:53:31,720 --> 01:53:34,559
Speaker 2: show me evidence at thirteen thousand years ago that there

2164
01:53:34,640 --> 01:53:41,960
Speaker 2: were mammoths and vegetation. And he's like, it's a rock garden, right,

2165
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:46,320
Speaker 2: it was water and rock. Yeah, But I don't know,

2166
01:53:46,360 --> 01:53:48,960
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm just saying how he explained it.

2167
01:53:49,040 --> 01:53:50,280
Speaker 2: I never read anything in.

2168
01:53:50,360 --> 01:53:53,639
Speaker 3: Terms of the availability of both migration roots.

2169
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, was there a green verdant ice free corridor?

2170
01:53:57,439 --> 01:53:59,640
Speaker 3: It's a really there is now, right, So at some

2171
01:53:59,680 --> 01:54:01,439
Speaker 3: point there had to be. And the question is when

2172
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:04,080
Speaker 3: does that go from being a barrier something that humans

2173
01:54:04,120 --> 01:54:07,960
Speaker 3: can actually traverse. That's a question for both migration corridors.

2174
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:11,320
Speaker 3: It's a really challenging thing to answer because you know,

2175
01:54:11,360 --> 01:54:13,880
Speaker 3: if we're thinking about a ten mile space, we can

2176
01:54:13,960 --> 01:54:16,080
Speaker 3: study that by drilling a core in a lake and

2177
01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:17,920
Speaker 3: studying the DNA or the pollen out of it. We're

2178
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:20,680
Speaker 3: talking about something that's twelve hundred miles long? Is that

2179
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:22,760
Speaker 3: what we decided the Ice Free Corridor.

2180
01:54:22,920 --> 01:54:24,640
Speaker 4: Nine to twelve hundred is what we looked at.

2181
01:54:24,680 --> 01:54:28,680
Speaker 3: That's a length. That's a length of it, right, So like,

2182
01:54:30,120 --> 01:54:32,360
Speaker 3: how do you know when that thing is open versus

2183
01:54:32,560 --> 01:54:35,760
Speaker 3: closed over a stretch that humans can actually migrate? It's

2184
01:54:35,920 --> 01:54:39,440
Speaker 3: incredibly challenging, and if you date different geologic deposits in

2185
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:41,760
Speaker 3: different places, you get different answers, and there's a lot

2186
01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:45,200
Speaker 3: of disagreement. The dates that I generally see are anywhere

2187
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:47,720
Speaker 3: from it was open from fourteen thousand, five hundred, or

2188
01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:51,960
Speaker 3: some people say it's open around thirteen thousand. What is

2189
01:54:52,040 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 3: really clear to me is that it's open right around

2190
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 3: the time Clovis explodes across North America.

2191
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 2: Can I bolster your Can I bolster your argument?

2192
01:55:02,040 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 4: I'd love that.

2193
01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:05,560
Speaker 2: Think about this, man. This is the thing I think

2194
01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:08,120
Speaker 2: about when I think about the Kelp Highway too, is

2195
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:11,120
Speaker 2: let's say, let's okay, let's say the Ice Free Corridor

2196
01:55:11,280 --> 01:55:14,320
Speaker 2: was real shitty and it wasn't great, but you were

2197
01:55:14,360 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 2: just you were making a moon shot, right. You're dying

2198
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 2: of curiosity, so you start picking into there, and why

2199
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:23,840
Speaker 2: would someone do that? You'd like why would anyone take

2200
01:55:23,840 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 2: the risk. They wouldn't want to go into marginal habitat.

2201
01:55:27,200 --> 01:55:30,040
Speaker 2: But think about this, let's go back to the coastal theory.

2202
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 2: You go to like Glacier Bay, or any number of

2203
01:55:35,600 --> 01:55:38,760
Speaker 2: areas in BC, any number of areas in southeast Alaska,

2204
01:55:39,880 --> 01:55:45,880
Speaker 2: we're still today, still today, that ocean land interface is

2205
01:55:45,920 --> 01:55:49,880
Speaker 2: a wall of ice. So people coming down in the

2206
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:53,800
Speaker 2: boat had to have been okay with the idea that, like,

2207
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:58,680
Speaker 2: it's true, as far as they could see, it was

2208
01:55:58,760 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 2: a wall of ice.

2209
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:01,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fart.

2210
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:04,880
Speaker 2: And they would have had calving, like calving glaciers, and

2211
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:07,480
Speaker 2: it would have been like, let's go in the north,

2212
01:56:09,160 --> 01:56:12,240
Speaker 2: let's check it up. Yeah, So someone there has to

2213
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:16,080
Speaker 2: be a thing where someone's like so dying of curiosity

2214
01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 2: that they have and they have to have the faith

2215
01:56:18,960 --> 01:56:21,280
Speaker 2: to be like, I have a feeling I don't know why,

2216
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:23,160
Speaker 2: I just have a feeling that if you go and

2217
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:26,840
Speaker 2: in thirty miles, maybe we'll find a place where it's

2218
01:56:26,880 --> 01:56:28,880
Speaker 2: not a hundred wall foot wall of ice.

2219
01:56:29,680 --> 01:56:32,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Maybe the elephant in the room is also that

2220
01:56:32,560 --> 01:56:37,080
Speaker 4: it would have required a pretty sophisticated technology of maritime travel,

2221
01:56:37,160 --> 01:56:40,560
Speaker 4: right that we really don't have any evidence that existed

2222
01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:43,840
Speaker 4: at that time. We found Australia, though that's a much

2223
01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:50,320
Speaker 4: smaller task than circumnavigating the Pacific Ocean, the North Pacific.

2224
01:56:50,520 --> 01:56:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Australia. We're talking about maybe fifty kilometers of tropical yeah.

2225
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:55,920
Speaker 2: Chip Shaw swim that.

2226
01:56:58,200 --> 01:57:00,680
Speaker 4: The other thing I think about with this with coastal

2227
01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 4: versus inland is I've like, I've only watched one season

2228
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:05,960
Speaker 4: of that show alone, but it was a season where

2229
01:57:06,000 --> 01:57:09,000
Speaker 4: this dude, it spent some time with some Siberian rangdeer herders.

2230
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:11,640
Speaker 4: He was an excellent outdoorsman, ended up building like a

2231
01:57:11,760 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 4: drift fence and killing a moose on this show and

2232
01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:16,560
Speaker 4: subsisting off this moose, and all the while, there's somebody

2233
01:57:16,600 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 4: else on the show that is just like meekly checking

2234
01:57:19,480 --> 01:57:21,640
Speaker 4: like a little fish trap every day, and they're getting

2235
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 4: out these little graylings or something and just starving to

2236
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:27,480
Speaker 4: death eating these tiny fish, while this dude's sitting high

2237
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:30,600
Speaker 4: on like this fatty moose meat man, and that guy

2238
01:57:30,760 --> 01:57:34,000
Speaker 4: devoted his energy towards the correct en deva. I would

2239
01:57:34,040 --> 01:57:37,320
Speaker 4: say you won that season, yeah, but you're not.

2240
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:39,640
Speaker 7: If you could string up a net and catch a

2241
01:57:39,760 --> 01:57:40,560
Speaker 7: hundred salmon and.

2242
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:42,600
Speaker 2: One you thinking of salmon runs, you're not thinking of

2243
01:57:42,640 --> 01:57:46,080
Speaker 2: clam beds. Like it's two different arguments. What people did

2244
01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:49,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, but like you're not thinking of clam beds,

2245
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:52,120
Speaker 2: you're not thinking of celt beds, and you're not thinking

2246
01:57:52,160 --> 01:57:52,960
Speaker 2: of salmon runs.

2247
01:57:54,920 --> 01:57:58,440
Speaker 3: All these things live in the water and really cold.

2248
01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:04,560
Speaker 2: What no, No, in that area and that area clam beds. Yeah,

2249
01:58:04,600 --> 01:58:05,920
Speaker 2: but there's a twenty foot tide swing.

2250
01:58:07,520 --> 01:58:09,560
Speaker 7: You could walk across a mile of some of that

2251
01:58:09,680 --> 01:58:10,840
Speaker 7: stuff without hitting water.

2252
01:58:11,160 --> 01:58:15,960
Speaker 2: You know, it's nothing but food. It is nothing but

2253
01:58:16,080 --> 01:58:17,880
Speaker 2: food on those clam beds.

2254
01:58:20,560 --> 01:58:23,000
Speaker 3: I think that people are driven by package size.

2255
01:58:23,840 --> 01:58:31,520
Speaker 2: Giant clan beds. I don't think it was. Yeah, there's

2256
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:33,560
Speaker 2: a lot to it. There's a lot to it, like

2257
01:58:33,680 --> 01:58:36,760
Speaker 2: the date stuff, But the food abundance thing. I think

2258
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:40,960
Speaker 2: that the food abundance thing, I think is overwhelming amounts

2259
01:58:40,960 --> 01:58:43,560
Speaker 2: of food. So I don't think that that was the problem.

2260
01:58:43,680 --> 01:58:45,880
Speaker 3: You know what's interesting about this right is we're arguing

2261
01:58:45,920 --> 01:58:47,920
Speaker 3: about evidence that doesn't exist in both cases.

2262
01:58:49,680 --> 01:58:52,120
Speaker 2: That's what makes it to stop.

2263
01:58:55,400 --> 01:58:58,120
Speaker 7: Is there any explanation for what would have kept that

2264
01:58:58,320 --> 01:58:59,920
Speaker 7: ice free corridor open.

2265
01:59:01,120 --> 01:59:04,280
Speaker 4: Just the end of the ice age, there was Lauren

2266
01:59:04,360 --> 01:59:07,400
Speaker 4: Tide and the cordieron sheets just kind of gradually received

2267
01:59:08,520 --> 01:59:12,280
Speaker 4: from each other, received completely until six thousand years ago

2268
01:59:12,400 --> 01:59:14,440
Speaker 4: or something because they grew out of Hudson Bay and

2269
01:59:14,520 --> 01:59:18,080
Speaker 4: eventually the last of it disappear on that time ago.

2270
01:59:18,240 --> 01:59:21,680
Speaker 4: But yeah, basically by the time it reached a certain

2271
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:24,520
Speaker 4: point like winter temperatures wouldn't have pushed it together again,

2272
01:59:24,560 --> 01:59:25,520
Speaker 4: and then it was open.

2273
01:59:26,280 --> 01:59:28,839
Speaker 6: Do we have any Clovis age skeletons of humans?

2274
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:30,080
Speaker 2: Yes, what he's talking about?

2275
01:59:30,760 --> 01:59:31,320
Speaker 3: What are they like?

2276
01:59:31,440 --> 01:59:35,640
Speaker 2: The Anzi boy from just West My apologies for asking

2277
01:59:37,080 --> 01:59:39,480
Speaker 2: two years old, the anti child and they just found

2278
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:44,680
Speaker 2: out he was His mother had a diet that was

2279
01:59:44,840 --> 01:59:48,200
Speaker 2: very similar to what they find with large cats. Mm hmm,

2280
01:59:48,440 --> 01:59:49,320
Speaker 2: choosing big game.

2281
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:51,000
Speaker 6: So how many Clovis humans do we have?

2282
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:52,000
Speaker 2: One that's it?

2283
01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:56,520
Speaker 3: There's there's one from Mexico that's roughly that age from

2284
01:59:56,600 --> 02:00:01,240
Speaker 3: a cave in Mexico, Is there, daw Steve? But it's

2285
02:00:01,320 --> 02:00:04,600
Speaker 3: not clearly it's not clearly Clovis and Antik is the one.

2286
02:00:05,760 --> 02:00:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was found in the sixties or seventies and

2287
02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:10,040
Speaker 2: Will saw Montana and a bunch of ochre and a

2288
02:00:10,080 --> 02:00:11,280
Speaker 2: bunch of projectile points.

2289
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:15,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, so her mother the reconstruction was at least forty

2290
02:00:15,280 --> 02:00:18,520
Speaker 3: percent mammoth in her in his mother's diet, which is

2291
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:19,440
Speaker 3: a huge amount.

2292
02:00:20,760 --> 02:00:25,440
Speaker 2: And this pisses off met and Aaron and Meltzer because

2293
02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:28,560
Speaker 2: people are like, see, they killed all the mammoths, and

2294
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:30,880
Speaker 2: they're like, well, no, I can see that they were

2295
02:00:30,920 --> 02:00:33,080
Speaker 2: eating mammoths, but how is this telling me they killed

2296
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:33,360
Speaker 2: them all.

2297
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:39,440
Speaker 4: For the record, we liked both Meton and Meltzer a

2298
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:44,200
Speaker 4: whole lot, And it's good to contextualize, like we're literally

2299
02:00:44,320 --> 02:00:47,360
Speaker 4: talking about like a couple thousand years and maybe a

2300
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:50,360
Speaker 4: half dozen sites of disagreement, right, It's just that those, yeah,

2301
02:00:50,400 --> 02:00:53,480
Speaker 4: a couple thousand years and half dozen sites have really

2302
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:56,240
Speaker 4: big implications for these two issues about how people got

2303
02:00:56,320 --> 02:00:58,800
Speaker 4: here and whether or not they killed off these animals.

2304
02:00:58,920 --> 02:01:00,840
Speaker 4: And so that's why we talk about it so much. Right,

2305
02:01:01,120 --> 02:01:03,040
Speaker 4: even though like it's like kind of a tempest in

2306
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:05,080
Speaker 4: a teacup, if you know that phrase. Yeah, a couple

2307
02:01:05,080 --> 02:01:07,600
Speaker 4: of people arguing about yeah, half dozen sights in a

2308
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:10,080
Speaker 4: couple of thousand years, they do have pretty big implications

2309
02:01:10,120 --> 02:01:12,080
Speaker 4: for the people of the Americans.

2310
02:01:12,560 --> 02:01:14,560
Speaker 2: Well, I already told you that this is the primary

2311
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:17,760
Speaker 2: thing I think about was that quote. Was that Dan

2312
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:19,640
Speaker 2: Flore's quote. It wasn't his quote, but he told us

2313
02:01:19,640 --> 02:01:22,440
Speaker 2: that quote. The reason the reason they're fighting so much

2314
02:01:22,600 --> 02:01:22,920
Speaker 2: is there's so.

2315
02:01:23,040 --> 02:01:27,960
Speaker 5: Little yeah, exactly talking about academics. The reason that arguments

2316
02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:30,080
Speaker 5: are so impassionate because there's so little.

2317
02:01:32,840 --> 02:01:33,880
Speaker 3: I've heard that attributed to.

2318
02:01:36,320 --> 02:01:38,320
Speaker 2: But there is a lot. But here I want to

2319
02:01:38,440 --> 02:01:40,160
Speaker 2: like this should we should have said at the beginning,

2320
02:01:40,480 --> 02:01:44,880
Speaker 2: at the very end. But where this becomes political, and

2321
02:01:44,960 --> 02:01:48,440
Speaker 2: where it becomes social, and where it becomes cultural, well

2322
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:50,280
Speaker 2: it's a lot of places. But one of the places

2323
02:01:50,320 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 2: it becomes this is is it innately human that we

2324
02:01:56,120 --> 02:02:00,320
Speaker 2: destroy our environment? Right? Is it sort of this lately

2325
02:02:00,560 --> 02:02:06,080
Speaker 2: human ancient practice that we drive things to extinction? Is

2326
02:02:06,160 --> 02:02:08,680
Speaker 2: it just who we are and we've always done it

2327
02:02:08,760 --> 02:02:13,680
Speaker 2: that way? Or did we like become evil later? And

2328
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:18,040
Speaker 2: so people will look and like blitz Creek hypothesis, people

2329
02:02:18,360 --> 02:02:23,000
Speaker 2: can look at, let's say, extinctions we're driving now with

2330
02:02:23,120 --> 02:02:26,920
Speaker 2: certain human activities. Isn't it nice to be able to

2331
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:29,600
Speaker 2: go like, oh, we've always done that. Where do you

2332
02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:31,320
Speaker 2: think happened all to the mambis? This is nothing new?

2333
02:02:31,440 --> 02:02:32,320
Speaker 2: It's always how it's.

2334
02:02:32,240 --> 02:02:36,440
Speaker 4: Been just because something's human universally human, which I think

2335
02:02:36,800 --> 02:02:39,920
Speaker 4: that tendency is, doesn't make it. It doesn't addicate us

2336
02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:41,520
Speaker 4: from more responsibility to deal with it.

2337
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:44,800
Speaker 2: No, of course, not like slavery is inherently human.

2338
02:02:45,360 --> 02:02:47,880
Speaker 4: It's a universal practice that because we live in a

2339
02:02:48,320 --> 02:02:51,400
Speaker 4: liberal democracy that decided it was a bad thing we

2340
02:02:51,480 --> 02:02:53,760
Speaker 4: got rid of. I should know, like, how many places

2341
02:02:53,800 --> 02:02:57,440
Speaker 4: in the world, for instance, have thriving large game populations

2342
02:02:57,520 --> 02:03:01,040
Speaker 4: outside of the American West Many. And the only reason

2343
02:03:01,080 --> 02:03:03,200
Speaker 4: we have him here right is because there's state sanctioned

2344
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:06,320
Speaker 4: conservation laws that have allowed that to happen. Otherwise we'd

2345
02:03:06,320 --> 02:03:08,600
Speaker 4: be in the same boat we have no big animals left. Yeah,

2346
02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:13,640
Speaker 4: So I think that argument that, like, by acknowledging this,

2347
02:03:13,800 --> 02:03:17,480
Speaker 4: we're kind of surrendering our moral obligation to do something

2348
02:03:17,520 --> 02:03:20,080
Speaker 4: about it. It's not a good argument to make just

2349
02:03:20,160 --> 02:03:22,520
Speaker 4: because something has happened forever doesn't mean we need to

2350
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:23,720
Speaker 4: keep doing it. Kay.

2351
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:26,160
Speaker 2: He with one more way, this where the rubber meets

2352
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:28,640
Speaker 2: the road. If you turn around and look above your head,

2353
02:03:28,640 --> 02:03:32,160
Speaker 2: you're going to see a war club. That war club

2354
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:36,360
Speaker 2: was given to us by a guest. It didn't sit

2355
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:38,120
Speaker 2: where you're sitting, but he sat in that seat in

2356
02:03:38,160 --> 02:03:43,080
Speaker 2: our old studio named Taylor Keene. Okay, and Taylor Kean

2357
02:03:43,200 --> 02:03:48,080
Speaker 2: felt that part of this thing of like he would

2358
02:03:48,280 --> 02:03:52,760
Speaker 2: argue that human history in the New World goes back

2359
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:56,600
Speaker 2: fifty thousand years, okay, he thinks it's way older. And

2360
02:03:56,760 --> 02:03:59,960
Speaker 2: he thinks that this like thirteen thousand year Clovis story

2361
02:04:01,080 --> 02:04:08,400
Speaker 2: is a way of is a way of He thinks

2362
02:04:08,400 --> 02:04:12,880
Speaker 2: that helped fuel Manifest Destiny to say, well, they haven't

2363
02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:15,760
Speaker 2: been here that long, like the people were displacing our

2364
02:04:15,840 --> 02:04:19,680
Speaker 2: new arrivals too, We're just another new arrival. I don't

2365
02:04:19,720 --> 02:04:22,840
Speaker 2: agree with him because I think that if you had

2366
02:04:22,920 --> 02:04:27,400
Speaker 2: gone to sort of like the architects of Manifest Destiny,

2367
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:31,440
Speaker 2: whether you go back to Jackson, you go back to Jefferson,

2368
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:34,600
Speaker 2: and you had said, hey, before you do this, bear

2369
02:04:34,680 --> 02:04:38,120
Speaker 2: in mind Native Americans have been on the landscape fifty

2370
02:04:38,200 --> 02:04:43,160
Speaker 2: thousand years, not thirteen thousand years. They wouldn't have been like, yeah,

2371
02:04:44,000 --> 02:04:47,200
Speaker 2: you're right, you're right, we better all leave and go

2372
02:04:47,280 --> 02:04:49,560
Speaker 2: back to Europe. And also they wouldn't have been able

2373
02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:52,440
Speaker 2: to comprehend the timeline anyways because they weren't living on

2374
02:04:52,560 --> 02:04:55,400
Speaker 2: that timeline. So I think that his argument is false,

2375
02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:59,600
Speaker 2: but he feels that this thirteen thousand year arrival thing,

2376
02:05:00,880 --> 02:05:04,000
Speaker 2: and I've encountered this perspective from a handful of friends

2377
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:08,680
Speaker 2: of mine are Indigenous friends of mine, that it that

2378
02:05:08,800 --> 02:05:12,200
Speaker 2: it's meant to sort of it's meant to kind of

2379
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:18,160
Speaker 2: d it's meant to kind of deflate or call into

2380
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:23,040
Speaker 2: question indigenous ownership of the landscape, to be like your

2381
02:05:23,160 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 2: people showed up, Our people showed up, Like no one's

2382
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:28,680
Speaker 2: from here. People just showed up, and they've always been

2383
02:05:28,680 --> 02:05:31,360
Speaker 2: fighting over it anyways, and we're just the latest of

2384
02:05:31,440 --> 02:05:33,000
Speaker 2: another people to come here and fight for it.

2385
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:36,560
Speaker 4: It's an interesting debate. Let me contextualize it a little bit. So,

2386
02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:42,160
Speaker 4: until the Fulsome site was discovered, the widespread notion among

2387
02:05:42,360 --> 02:05:44,920
Speaker 4: people that studied this stuff was the Native Americans have

2388
02:05:45,040 --> 02:05:47,680
Speaker 4: only been here about three or four thousand years. Yeah,

2389
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:50,920
Speaker 4: And when the Fulsome site came out and there's this

2390
02:05:51,080 --> 02:05:53,560
Speaker 4: revelatory thing that people have been here since the Ice Age,

2391
02:05:54,480 --> 02:05:57,680
Speaker 4: it was of enormous benefit to Native Americans because it

2392
02:05:57,880 --> 02:06:00,680
Speaker 4: established that they'd been here a very long time. Thirteen

2393
02:06:00,720 --> 02:06:02,360
Speaker 4: thousand years is a really long time.

2394
02:06:03,880 --> 02:06:07,040
Speaker 3: Six hundred and fifty human generations approximately.

2395
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:12,720
Speaker 4: So yeah, fast forward almost a century now, Now that

2396
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:16,440
Speaker 4: thirteen thousand years old is no longer old enough, old enough,

2397
02:06:17,160 --> 02:06:18,960
Speaker 4: you have to keep pushing it back a little further.

2398
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:21,480
Speaker 4: I just I think thirteen thousand years is a really

2399
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:25,520
Speaker 4: long time, and it's certainly enough time to establish that

2400
02:06:25,640 --> 02:06:28,080
Speaker 4: you have some sort of patrimony over the land of

2401
02:06:28,160 --> 02:06:32,200
Speaker 4: this country. I don't quite understand the argument that it's

2402
02:06:32,280 --> 02:06:35,040
Speaker 4: not quite long enough to establish that. It's a really

2403
02:06:35,120 --> 02:06:35,640
Speaker 4: long time.

2404
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:38,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, the scientific study of the human past in North

2405
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:44,840
Speaker 3: America has confirmed that the descendant communities today their ancestors

2406
02:06:44,880 --> 02:06:48,120
Speaker 3: were these people that they arrived six hundred and fifty

2407
02:06:48,200 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 3: human generations ago.

2408
02:06:50,480 --> 02:06:51,240
Speaker 4: Anzik showed that.

2409
02:06:51,800 --> 02:06:56,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Anzick did show that another human remains. You know,

2410
02:06:56,760 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 3: if we look at if we go back to I

2411
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:01,560
Speaker 3: assume you guys have ancestry in Europe, and we asked

2412
02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:04,520
Speaker 3: how long do we have ancestry in Europe? It's almost

2413
02:07:04,560 --> 02:07:07,160
Speaker 3: certainly less than that, because there have been multiple populations

2414
02:07:07,240 --> 02:07:10,720
Speaker 3: that have run over Europe repeatedly. So thirteen thousand years

2415
02:07:10,840 --> 02:07:15,080
Speaker 3: is longer than anybody in Europe. Most people in Europe

2416
02:07:15,080 --> 02:07:18,400
Speaker 3: could truly lay claim to some you know, places of homeland.

2417
02:07:18,520 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 3: It's a long damn time.

2418
02:07:19,640 --> 02:07:22,600
Speaker 2: That's an interesting point. Do you know what two percent African?

2419
02:07:23,240 --> 02:07:24,240
Speaker 3: I didn't know that? Who told me?

2420
02:07:24,280 --> 02:07:26,240
Speaker 2: My wife tells me to keep that down because she's

2421
02:07:26,440 --> 02:07:27,840
Speaker 2: guy kind of oversell.

2422
02:07:27,480 --> 02:07:35,040
Speaker 4: It's to get away with any linguistic turn the phrase.

2423
02:07:35,760 --> 02:07:37,880
Speaker 2: She's like, I keep it under you keep it under

2424
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:42,640
Speaker 2: your head. She doesn't wanted to impact my worldview.

2425
02:07:42,720 --> 02:07:42,880
Speaker 3: You know.

2426
02:07:45,760 --> 02:07:49,680
Speaker 2: Okay again, join today. I'm going to have you, guys

2427
02:07:50,320 --> 02:07:52,240
Speaker 2: tell people. I'm gonna remind everybody who you are. Then

2428
02:07:52,280 --> 02:07:54,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to have you tell people how to find

2429
02:07:54,280 --> 02:07:56,360
Speaker 2: your work and how to follow what you guys work on.

2430
02:07:56,680 --> 02:08:01,440
Speaker 2: So Todd Surrevel, the director of the Georgie C. Frison

2431
02:08:01,480 --> 02:08:04,520
Speaker 2: Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology at the University of Wyoming,

2432
02:08:05,120 --> 02:08:10,080
Speaker 2: and Spencer Pelton, the Wyoming State Archaeologist and an adjunct

2433
02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:13,600
Speaker 2: at University of Wyoming. So, if you find cool stuff

2434
02:08:13,640 --> 02:08:18,360
Speaker 2: in Wyoming, if you're like, good lord, it's a man

2435
02:08:18,480 --> 02:08:21,040
Speaker 2: of school, the stone point stuck in its forehead.

2436
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:23,720
Speaker 4: I'm going to get so many photos off.

2437
02:08:25,480 --> 02:08:27,520
Speaker 2: You know, I gotta tell people's story. So I walk

2438
02:08:27,600 --> 02:08:30,560
Speaker 2: into I walk into Spencer's office and the first thing

2439
02:08:30,600 --> 02:08:32,400
Speaker 2: that greets me, just laying on the floor is a

2440
02:08:32,520 --> 02:08:37,800
Speaker 2: giant the end of a giant dinosaur fever. So I said,

2441
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:40,640
Speaker 2: what's that. He goes, that's a rock, and I said,

2442
02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:42,280
Speaker 2: I thought it was a big dinosaur bony. So that's

2443
02:08:42,280 --> 02:08:43,680
Speaker 2: what the guy that brought it to me thought was.

2444
02:08:46,280 --> 02:08:47,840
Speaker 2: And then he said, I gonna have it if I wanted.

2445
02:08:48,440 --> 02:08:52,640
Speaker 2: The guy that brought it just left it there. So

2446
02:08:52,760 --> 02:08:56,320
Speaker 2: it was not the dude that brought it.

2447
02:08:57,160 --> 02:09:00,640
Speaker 3: But it was a very convincing dinosaur. Not a dinosaur,

2448
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:02,240
Speaker 3: but it was very convincing.

2449
02:09:03,840 --> 02:09:06,840
Speaker 2: Sitting there, sitting there on his floor. As it's not

2450
02:09:06,920 --> 02:09:07,680
Speaker 2: in the collections.

2451
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:10,400
Speaker 7: He didn't ask you to come out to his truck

2452
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:11,480
Speaker 7: to look at it first.

2453
02:09:16,440 --> 02:09:18,240
Speaker 2: I would have been so excited you would this thing.

2454
02:09:18,280 --> 02:09:20,800
Speaker 2: I would have been like, holy cow man, No, I

2455
02:09:20,920 --> 02:09:25,240
Speaker 2: got it. I'm rich. So how do people find your work?

2456
02:09:25,400 --> 02:09:26,680
Speaker 2: What should they check out? I have one of your

2457
02:09:26,680 --> 02:09:31,120
Speaker 2: books upstairs. The badger wa just got barker gulch. Yeah,

2458
02:09:31,200 --> 02:09:32,320
Speaker 2: I had to buy that sucker.

2459
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:33,360
Speaker 3: I brought one for you.

2460
02:09:33,720 --> 02:09:35,640
Speaker 2: You did, Yeah, bought it on him.

2461
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:40,360
Speaker 3: I searched my name. You can find my website. Spell

2462
02:09:40,360 --> 02:09:43,360
Speaker 3: your name out, serve L s U r O v

2463
02:09:43,480 --> 02:09:46,680
Speaker 3: e LLL Okay, I do want to say that that

2464
02:09:46,840 --> 02:09:49,320
Speaker 3: my job is as director of the Prison Institute, is

2465
02:09:49,400 --> 02:09:52,840
Speaker 3: raising money to support archaeological research in our department, mostly

2466
02:09:53,120 --> 02:09:58,080
Speaker 3: other people, students, faculty, people like Spencer. So if you're

2467
02:09:58,120 --> 02:10:02,000
Speaker 3: interested in supporting the last breath of last dying breath

2468
02:10:02,040 --> 02:10:05,520
Speaker 3: of Clovis first archaeology, and people who believe in licensing extinctions,

2469
02:10:06,920 --> 02:10:10,400
Speaker 3: search of Prison Institute. We're happy to take donations. Every

2470
02:10:10,440 --> 02:10:11,480
Speaker 3: dollar goes to research.

2471
02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:14,760
Speaker 4: Oh excellent, Yeah, you can just google me too. I've

2472
02:10:14,760 --> 02:10:17,040
Speaker 4: got some talks on YouTube. I got a research gate

2473
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:20,839
Speaker 4: page where all my research goes. Also write a newsletter

2474
02:10:20,880 --> 02:10:25,440
Speaker 4: on substack called Social Stigma. It's about basically political issues

2475
02:10:25,520 --> 02:10:29,879
Speaker 4: and archaeology and anthropology. That's free. You want to subscribe

2476
02:10:29,880 --> 02:10:30,040
Speaker 4: to that.

2477
02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:30,839
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

2478
02:10:31,600 --> 02:10:34,360
Speaker 2: Good, Thanks guys, appreciate you coming on. Man, it's been fascinating.

2479
02:10:34,480 --> 02:10:35,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, thank you,