WEBVTT - The Apache Wars 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.680 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.119 and there's Charles W. Chuck Brian over there, and this 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:25.560 is Stuff you should know. Uh, celebrating Native American Heritage Month. Fantastic, um, 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.960 and we are talking about something we probably would have 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.479 talked about whether it was Native American Heritage Month or not, 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.960 but we selected it for this month in particular just 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.839 as a nod shout out. But we're talking about one 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:43.080 of those um moments in history that probably most people 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.440 are walking around and are like, oh, yeah, the Apache Wars, 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:48.960 I've I've heard of that, but no, almost nothing about 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.760 even though depending on how you look at it, it's 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.560 actually still to this day the longest ward that the 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:59.440 United States ever fought. Really Yeah, and it produced some 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:06.960 really famous, really interesting, really um amazing characters on both sides, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.560 but in particular among the Apache who and we'll meet 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.280 a lot of them in this episode. Yeah, and these 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:18.679 are you know, a series of skirmishes over time that um, 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.959 it seems like there was there was often peace and 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.520 then there were these inciting incidents that would happen. There 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:31.200 were misunderstandings that happened. Uh, there were bungled um negotiations 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.880 that happened, and like it feels like it could have 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.039 gone a different way at so many points, and it 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:42.080 continually just went south. Yeah, And I mean speaking you know, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.680 histories written by the victors, and so the idea of 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:53.360 the Apache basically being um, you know, bloodthirsty, cruel, merciless, um, 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.240 you know, people who mutilated victims and would kill women 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:02.559 and children. Um. You know, that's that's definitely painted. Uh, 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.600 it paints the whole the whole group with a much 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.320 larger brush than you should. But it also leaves out 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.240 the atrocities that were committed on the other side to 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.280 their people were slaughtered as well, exactly. So, Um, it's 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.200 just one of those things where it was war like. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.600 It was a genuine straight up war. But like you said, 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.000 there are plenty of places where it could have been avoided, 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.200 and we'll talk about those, but first talk, I think 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.400 we should talk about the Apache. And one of the 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:28.600 first things that I've learned when I started researching this 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.560 is that the Apache are not a nation or tribe. 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.400 Their group of loosely affiliated tribes that all kind of 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.920 come from the same area and despite the fact that 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.440 we tend to think of the Apache as totally tied 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.680 to the southwestern United States, they actually arrived fairly recently 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:52.520 from western Canada, like BC, I take it, that's right, uh, 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.760 and they eventually found their way to the American uh southwest. 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.600 They did not we call them Apache. They they do 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.919 not call themselves that. They called themselves I guess day, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.720 which means that the people, which is pretty great and basic. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.840 And they think the name Apache may have been given 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.760 to them from the word Apache by the Zuni tribe 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:19.680 who battled with them many times, and that means Apache 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:23.000 means enemy in Zuni, so they think that's where Apache 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.840 came from. And uh, you know, you mentioned that they 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.800 were a loose collection. I mean there were never like 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.800 hundreds of thousands of Apache. I'm not sure where the 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.000 numbers topped out, but they were spread over fifteen million 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:45.000 square miles, so that's called a very very thin uh distribution. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.160 So they were uh, you know, not to skip head 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.200 too much, but they were rarely in groups, um more 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.960 than like twenty five or thirty at a time, right, right, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.360 And so what you would call the Apache were actually 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.640 kind of spread out among the western Apache uh, there's 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:04.480 the Cherikawa Apache UM and then these larger groups were 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.880 split into smaller bands even and the Cherkawa are kind 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.880 of like the central group that UM fought the Apache wars, 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:18.000 although just about every apache Um tribe was involved, but 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.880 the Cherkaoa were kind of like the central figures. And 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:25.839 the Cherkao were broken into four different smaller bands, the 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:32.760 bed bed on kohe let's hear it, but donka hey, 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:39.760 thank you, Chuck, the chikon In Chehenni, and the Nedni 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.920 Yeah great, okay, so the so what was the first 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.839 one again? But donke hey, that's much better than mine. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:51.120 But all of these groups, these four bands that formed 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:57.520 the ch Chirkawa apache Um total maybe people at their 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:02.760 at their largest um population size UM. And despite that 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.680 really small number, they produced some really famous people like 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:11.400 Geronimo CoA Cheese Victorio. All of them were Churakawa Apache 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:13.880 and again they were the central group that fought the 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.599 Apache Wars. They were also the central group that could 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.560 have stemmed off the Apache wars if UM some of 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.320 the Union soldiers that they had to deal with had 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.159 taken them a different way. That's right. Uh. And you 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.400 know I mentioned that there were a lot of misunderstandings 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.600 and mix ups along the way, and combine that with 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.040 the fact that, um, the settlers just thought they were 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.600 all Apache and that they all were the same. There 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:43.080 were misunderstandings like, uh, you know, a raid would happen 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:45.120 on a camp, and this was one of the the 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.080 ways that the Apache got by, as they would, you know, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.679 not because they didn't like somebody, because they needed supplies 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.800 and stuff. They would raid a camp, take some stuff, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.400 and the settlers would think, well, this is just this 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.599 is the Apache. It's all of you doing this, whereas 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:00.720 it might be one very small group and the other 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:02.200 groups will be like, I don't even know what you're 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.080 talking about, right, And that's why I was saying, you 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.520 can't really paint the the people we call the Apache 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.200 with this very large brush, because some of them worked 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.760 very closely and for the U. S. Military to go 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:17.880 find other Apache. UM. Even within the Cherikawa there were 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.760 totally different ideas on how to approach and deal with 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.480 the Americans. UM. There was a big division that developed 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.520 through the Apache wars in among the Apache of you know, 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.880 some of them were like, look, we cannot defeat this enemy. 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:35.919 The best thing we can do and to hope to 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.920 live peacefully is to just settle down and start farming 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.480 and live on these reservations that they're they're making us 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.400 live on. And the other groups said, no where. We 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.760 need to fight to the death for our ancestral lands 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.279 and our old ways of life. And so there's a 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.479 lot of nuance, there's a lot of difference. There's a 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:54.520 lot of disagreement among these people who are living and 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.280 fighting during the Apache Wars, and even some of the 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.719 ones that wanted to live peacefully were frequently worst into 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.800 fighting like that was their only choice. Um. And so 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.160 it's it's just really important to keep in mind that 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.600 you you can't just just like you can't say Apache 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.720 and that's just one nation because it's not. UM. You 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.800 also can't just say, well, all the Apache thought this way, 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.000 or even all the Cherikawa thought this way. There was 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.000 just a lot of a lot of difference, and there 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.720 was also a lot of room four different opinions, because, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:29.040 like you said, the groups that they lived in really 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.920 were usually no more than twenty five or thirty and 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.280 a family or a couple of families exactly, and they 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.160 were often related by blood and marriage, and it was 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.600 a matrilineal society too. So if you were a man 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.000 and you married a woman, you joined your your wife's 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.760 family from that point on. And so these bands, these 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.520 four bands of the Cherikawa were um were very much 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.400 related to one another because they would often swap you know, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:59.480 UM members through marriage and alliances. That's right. So uh 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.720 I mentioned the raids as a way of life for them. UM. 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.840 That is different than like there was no malice involved. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.080 That was different from like an actual skirmish or a 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.360 battle when the warriors would would take center stage and 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.720 that was serious stuff. They were um. They were people 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:21.080 that very much uh wanted revenge when they were wronged, 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.440 and that's when those sort of really bloody skirmishes would 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.760 take place, as opposed to the raids, which was uh 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.360 them you know, getting food and supplies and ammunition and 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.640 stuff like that. Yeah. There was an author of a 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:37.000 book called the Apache Wars, a guy named Paul Andrew 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.080 Hutton said that they likened them to the Vikings, that 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:43.760 they just like rating was out of economic necessity. The 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.080 thing is that they were also again camp paying them 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:47.960 all with one brush. There are plenty of them that 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:52.120 were raiders UM, and all of them apparently engaged in raiding, 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.120 but some much more than others. And then the ones 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.640 that didn't raid so much, they might farm a little more, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.240 or they might engage in peaceful trade with their neighbors. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:05.720 But the the one commonality that basically all groups labeled 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.120 as APACHE seemed to have had was a a UM 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.480 like an enemy in Mexico, first the Spanish and then 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:18.120 later Mexico, where like if you were caught by Mexican 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.520 and you were an Apache, or you were a Mexican 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.200 and you were caught by Apache, you were going to 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:29.240 face the very brutal, unhappy and UM almost immediately like 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.840 there they were. They weren't gonna like release you as 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.240 a hostage or negotiate for your release. You were going 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:38.920 to be killed horribly. Yeah. And they were united, uh 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.800 sometimes with the settlers against Mexico, so much so that 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:46.679 I believe one of the chiefs told Kit Carson, who 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.880 was an American scout in six like, hey, we'll team 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.040 up with you to fight Mexico. That's how much we 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.559 hate Mexico. Yeah. That chief was Mangus Colorados, and he 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.760 was actually one of the UM, one of the first 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.560 rate leaders at this time, at this moment in history 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.120 when the Americans first started showing up, and he was 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.920 very much interested in peace with the Americans. Um, not 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:12.640 even necessarily out of necessity, but like you said, like 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.600 the common enemy was Mexico, and he thought Americans were 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.440 great because they hated Mexico as much as as the 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:23.359 Apache did. That's right. The one problem with the Chiricawa 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.199 is that they had a nice place where they lived. 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.600 I mean, they were seasonal um migrators, and so they 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.280 would kind of move around. But um one of the 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.440 main places that they hung out was south south of 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.400 the Gila River in Arizona, and it was a really 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.120 really good place to be. So that means, of course, 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.440 as westward expansion happens, or as we'll see later, as 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.680 the Civil War happens and then Union troops head west 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:51.760 to try and keep it from falling into the hands 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.559 of the Southerners, that's gonna be a place where they're 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.640 gonna go. They're gonna be wagon trains going through there. 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.520 Eventually there's gonna be railroads going through there. And so 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.760 there was bay Slean. No chance that the Chiricawa were 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.760 just gonna be left alone to do their thing. No, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.160 but this was their ancestral land, and they weren't exactly 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:10.959 you know, ones to leave other people alone through their 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:16.040 rating um and wars for revenge. So like again, like, 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.240 the stage was definitely set for Apache wars, but it's 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.280 wrong to say that they were inevitable. And the reason 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.079 why I was wrong to say that they were inevitables 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.800 because there was some early stuff that happened that didn't 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.120 have to happen that really kind of kicked this off. 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.280 But I propose we take a break before we start 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.200 talking about those things. Let's do it. Okay, We'll be 0:11:34.320 --> 0:12:03.960 right back, Okay, Chuck so Um. One of the first 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.360 things that was um that that a lot of people 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.200 point to is the thing that kicked off the Apache war, 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.720 uh or wars I should say, took place in eighteen 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:15.560 sixty one, and it came to be known as the 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.320 Bascomb affair. And from what I saw, almost every site 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:24.360 that writes about Lieutenant George Bascombe wrote that he was young, inexperienced, 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.839 over enthusiastic, over zealous even, and pretty much incompetent when 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:34.959 it came to something as tense and unsure as negotiating 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.720 for the release of hostages. Yeah, and that's exactly what 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.520 happened in eighteen sixty one. The uh this is when 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:47.440 I didn't look up the Arab vapor um I'm going 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:52.600 with are of IPA. Okay. They were yet another band 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.960 of Apache that rated a farm of a settler named 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:59.800 John Ward. Went off to the Chiricawa Mountains, which is 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.599 where Coach Hee was. And you know, they did the 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.599 usual stuff. They took livestock, but they also made the 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.240 mistake of kidnapping UH John Ward's stepson, Felix Ward, which 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.560 is when UH Lieutenant Bascombe was sent in to bring 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.400 them to justice to negotiate something. He invites Coach Hee 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.360 to a meeting and again they went to Coaches's territory. 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.760 He was not behind this. And when he got in 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.400 a tent with Coach Yese and said, this is what 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.360 you did. This is one of those was those things 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.959 Coach he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Man, 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:32.720 We had nothing to do with this. But here's what 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.720 I'll do. I'll try and find out I'll try and 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.600 find out who was behind this, and I'll track him 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:40.920 down and I'll bring him to you. And Bascomb said, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.000 and which was a pretty good deal. Considering he didn't 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.000 have anything to do with it, and Bascomb said, no, 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.280 and you know what, You're gonna stay here as our 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:53.040 hostage along with your family members and coach he said, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.400 I don't think so. I'm gonna cut a hole on 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:56.920 this tent in the middle of the night and leave. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.840 They're like, how did he cut a hole in the tent? 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.080 It doesn't make any sense. He disappeared, but he he 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.520 had to leave his family behind to make his escape, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:11.600 and UM Bascombe now had his family as hostages. So 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.679 Coachiefs went out UM and got his own hostages. They 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.800 raided a wagon train and a stage coach and got 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:23.720 both Mexican and American hostages. And the Mexicans they dispatched 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.960 immediately in some really terrible way. They tied them to 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.120 a wagon and then lit the wagon on fire. UM. 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:34.680 So the Mexican hostages had zero chance, but the Americans, 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.960 UM coach he's kept alive UH to to use as 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.440 UM pawns. And in negotiating the release of his own 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.400 family UM, and apparently Bascombe was unmoved. He said, no, 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.960 we're not releasing your family until we get that livestock 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.640 and that UM that kid that was initially kidnapped back 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.160 that's that's how your family's gonna get released. And so 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.320 after a few days of trying to negotiate U an 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:05.720 exchange of hostages, UM Coachife ordered the American hostages killed, 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.200 and then Bascomb ordered Coaches's family killed, which is really 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.080 something for a US Army officer to do, but that's 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.880 what happened. They were executed. Um. The women were let go, 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.360 but Um Coaches's favorite brother was among the ones that 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.080 were killed, and that did not sit very well with 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:27.280 Coach Cheese. That a lot of people say the baskemb 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:32.560 affairs what kicked off the the the Apache wars. Not 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.160 everyone agrees. Actually, there's there's other stuff that came later, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.800 just real quick. The death of of Um Mangus Colorados, 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.360 that really important early chief who wanted to allie with 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.600 the Americans. In eighteen sixty three, he was invited for 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:51.960 peace talks and Um was held and executed. Um. The 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.520 peace talks were just a ruse, and he was grossly mutilated. 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.200 After he was murdered, they cut his head off, boiled 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.080 the skin from his goals, and its goal off to 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.760 a phrenologist in New York. Um and a lot of 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:08.400 people say that's probably what what started the Apache wars, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.040 because not only was that a brutal way to treat 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.960 Mangus Colorados is very respected chief, but it also showed that, like, 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.040 you couldn't trust the Union Army to engage in actual 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.480 peach peace talks. They might just kill you. They might 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.480 just as soon kill you. And also they killed a 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:29.320 really big ally and studying hand among the Cherikawa. Alright, 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.360 so I mentioned earlier the Civil War getting cranked up 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.560 back east and Union soldiers coming out to kind of 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.880 you know, safeguard or at least protect Southerners from coming 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:41.880 into the American Southwest, and all of a sudden that 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.440 Cherikawa there, like, hey, if we want to do some rating, 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.359 this is pretty great because they've got all kinds of supplies, 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:53.400 all kinds of munitions, and it's a pretty pretty good 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.440 group of people to try and raid. And how some 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.520 of these raids went down as far as the military 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.400 is concerned, Uh, they're a battle in eighteen sixty two 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.840 that was pretty typical is that they would raid the military, 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.440 but the military it was far more outguns them. And 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.560 so the Apache retreat, but a retreat to the Apache 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.400 was not some bad thing. It was actually a tactic 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:18.800 because they could just sort of They're like, why just 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.879 get slaughtered because of pride when we can retreat and 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.800 really disappear into the desert and like they will not 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.560 find us. We know this land so well, we can 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.399 really hide out here because we're few in number and 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.880 we know this territory. And there are historians that basically 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:39.879 agreed that say, you know, if it wasn't for Apache 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.560 that ended up working with the military to turn on 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.280 their own people, like they could have never been found 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:46.960 if they didn't want to be. Yeah, and it wasn't 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.320 even necessarily turning on their own people. Again, that's looking 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.200 at it through the idea that all Apache were the same. 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.639 But we're talking about like the White Mountain Apache um 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.080 or the Dark Rocks people Apache like people that that 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.440 were might as well have been enemies to the Cherikawa. 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.480 So like the idea of them working with the army 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.119 as scouts to find these other Apache wasn't you know, 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:11.480 quite as much as as being like a Benedict Arnold 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.159 kind of thing. Yeah, not not turning on their own tribe, 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.720 right right, So um I found Chuck, there's actually a 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:22.400 confederate UM like officer that's buried in Arizona, because the 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.120 Confederacy actually made its way managed to get to Arizona 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.000 and occupied it for a brief time, and they themselves 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.359 also got into skirmishes with the Apache there and one 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.159 of them got killed. So there's a guy that's buried 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:39.240 who is a Confederate soldier in Arizona. Wow. So, um, 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.480 we should probably talk about the Camp Grant massacre because 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.320 this is a big turning point. We have lots of 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:47.960 raids and skirmishes and battles and atrocities that have been 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.800 going on during the first Um Apache Wars generally how 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.639 it's kind of loosely gathered together. But the Camp Grant 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.760 massacre in eighteen seventy one, it was a big turning 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:03.320 point because there of Apa chief Eska Mansen's Um people 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.720 were camped out near um Tucson at an army encampment, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.840 like peacefully settling there. They were not like scouting or 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.520 doing anything like that. But the people of Tucson were 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.520 worried that there were raiders among them, and so they 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:22.280 pre emptively massacred the Um the Apache that were there, 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.040 and I think all but eight of the hundred and 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.960 forty four people that were killed in that massacre of 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:33.560 the Apache um were women and children. UM. And that 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.840 I think something like twenty seven kids were kidnapped and 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.840 sold into slavery and very soon came to work in 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.119 some of the homes of two sons, most affluent families. 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.040 It was a huge atrocity that was carried out by 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.960 the white settlers of Tucson UM and it had a 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:55.679 huge effect on not just the Um, the arab Apa Apache, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.520 but also the Chirakawa as well. And it also had 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.880 a big effect on President Grant Ulysses As Grant who 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.960 was furious when he heard about this, and he actually 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:07.760 threatened to put Arizona under martial law unless this whole 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.680 thing got sorted out. And he sent a peace delegation 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.200 to speak with Coach Cheese to see if they could 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:17.159 keep this war from continuing on or breaking out further. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:22.240 That's right. Uh. So they offered a truce. Uh. They said, 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.159 here's what we'll do. If you agree to move to 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.560 this reservation in San Carlos, then we can have a 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.720 peace treaty and a truce in line. Uh. San Carlos 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.359 was not a good place to be UM. It was terrible. 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.880 The settlers knew this, Uh, the Apache knew this. They 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.280 all called it Hell's forty Acres and so it was 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.119 not a place that they wanted to go. But Coach 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.880 Chiefs negotiated and said, you know what, we're not going there, 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.119 but if we can create our new reservation that's just 0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.640 for us and we can come and go as we please, uh, 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.480 then we'll we'll get on board with his truce. And 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.359 Grant said okay, and they had a piece and it 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:06.359 lasted about four years. Eventually Coach Hes died of stomach cancer, though, 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:08.600 and that was, you know, one thing that kind of 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:12.760 weakened the piece. Accord. There was also an incident where, uh, 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.880 there were a couple of Chiricawa Apache who killed two 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:20.240 white men who didn't give them whiskey fair enough. And 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.800 both of these incidents is basically just sort of chipped away, 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:25.760 and all of a sudden there was no more truce. No, 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.080 because the people who lived in the area were like, 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.879 we don't like this idea that the Cherkawa gets to 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.800 like come and go off of their reservation as they please. 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.560 And in fact, they were staging raids in Mexico, which 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:38.119 was not part of the treaty, but it was an 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.439 oversight UM. And so like all those things combined, like 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.240 especially with the death of coaches like that, that treaty ended, 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.359 UM and so that like this the I think it 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.840 was a four year UM four year peace and when 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:57.880 that ended, the second Apache Wars began. That's right, Uh, 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:03.840 and coach he's his son took his place. UM. They said, 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.800 you know basically that UM, that reservation was abolished that 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.960 they were happy with. And they said, well, great, that 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:12.800 means we can just go back and live on you know, 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.160 wherever you want and and migrate around. And they said, no, 0:22:15.200 --> 0:22:17.520 not really, UM, we'd like you to go back to 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.280 the San Carlos reservation that we know you hate. And 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:26.679 so they started negotiating. Uh Tazza had another uh Chiricawa 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:31.840 chief name who chief who j you h who He 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.320 was with Bdonka Hayes And he had a stutter though, 0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:37.520 so he said, I don't like to negotiate in person 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.840 with my stutter. I'm going to have a proxy. My 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:45.159 brother in law, uh Goyakla is going to speak for me. 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.360 He's a medicine man, but you might know him by 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:54.760 his other name Geronimo And everyone went, WHOA, right, we've 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.960 heard of him, Uh, Geronimo. By this time, he was 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:03.400 already nicknamed as Geronimo, because it was the Mexicans who 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:07.879 gave Geronimo his nickname, and still to this day, no 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:11.199 one knows what the heck they meant by that. It 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:15.679 turns out that Geronimo is a really rare Italian version 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.840 of the name Jerome. And we're talking about Mexican and 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:22.840 Spanish people, not Italian, so it would be weird for 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:25.239 them to give him the name Jerome. And even if 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:27.439 they had given him the name Jerome, it wouldn't make 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.480 any sense because that means sacred name. And by the way, 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:36.560 you know Hieronymous, that's a version of Geronimo. Yeah, but 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:39.600 it doesn't make any sense. So regardless, it's lost to 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.439 history why they call him Geronimo, but they would shout 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:46.640