1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: and there's Charles W. Chuck Brian over there, and this 4 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: is Stuff you should know. Uh, celebrating Native American Heritage Month. Fantastic, um, 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: and we are talking about something we probably would have 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: talked about whether it was Native American Heritage Month or not, 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: but we selected it for this month in particular just 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: as a nod shout out. But we're talking about one 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: of those um moments in history that probably most people 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: are walking around and are like, oh, yeah, the Apache Wars, 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: I've I've heard of that, but no, almost nothing about 12 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: even though depending on how you look at it, it's 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: actually still to this day the longest ward that the 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: United States ever fought. Really Yeah, and it produced some 15 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: really famous, really interesting, really um amazing characters on both sides, 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: but in particular among the Apache who and we'll meet 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of them in this episode. Yeah, and these 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: are you know, a series of skirmishes over time that um, 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: it seems like there was there was often peace and 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: then there were these inciting incidents that would happen. There 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: were misunderstandings that happened. Uh, there were bungled um negotiations 22 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: that happened, and like it feels like it could have 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: gone a different way at so many points, and it 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: continually just went south. Yeah, And I mean speaking you know, 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: histories written by the victors, and so the idea of 26 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: the Apache basically being um, you know, bloodthirsty, cruel, merciless, um, 27 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: you know, people who mutilated victims and would kill women 28 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: and children. Um. You know, that's that's definitely painted. Uh, 29 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: it paints the whole the whole group with a much 30 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: larger brush than you should. But it also leaves out 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: the atrocities that were committed on the other side to 32 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: their people were slaughtered as well, exactly. So, Um, it's 33 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: just one of those things where it was war like. 34 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: It was a genuine straight up war. But like you said, 35 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: there are plenty of places where it could have been avoided, 36 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about those, but first talk, I think 37 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: we should talk about the Apache. And one of the 38 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: first things that I've learned when I started researching this 39 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: is that the Apache are not a nation or tribe. 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: Their group of loosely affiliated tribes that all kind of 41 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: come from the same area and despite the fact that 42 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: we tend to think of the Apache as totally tied 43 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: to the southwestern United States, they actually arrived fairly recently 44 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: from western Canada, like BC, I take it, that's right, uh, 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: and they eventually found their way to the American uh southwest. 46 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: They did not we call them Apache. They they do 47 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: not call themselves that. They called themselves I guess day, 48 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: which means that the people, which is pretty great and basic. 49 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: And they think the name Apache may have been given 50 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: to them from the word Apache by the Zuni tribe 51 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: who battled with them many times, and that means Apache 52 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: means enemy in Zuni, so they think that's where Apache 53 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: came from. And uh, you know, you mentioned that they 54 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: were a loose collection. I mean there were never like 55 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of Apache. I'm not sure where the 56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: numbers topped out, but they were spread over fifteen million 57 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: square miles, so that's called a very very thin uh distribution. 58 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: So they were uh, you know, not to skip head 59 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: too much, but they were rarely in groups, um more 60 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: than like twenty five or thirty at a time, right, right, 61 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: And so what you would call the Apache were actually 62 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: kind of spread out among the western Apache uh, there's 63 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: the Cherikawa Apache UM and then these larger groups were 64 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: split into smaller bands even and the Cherkawa are kind 65 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: of like the central group that UM fought the Apache wars, 66 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: although just about every apache Um tribe was involved, but 67 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: the Cherkaoa were kind of like the central figures. And 68 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: the Cherkao were broken into four different smaller bands, the 69 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: bed bed on kohe let's hear it, but donka hey, 70 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: thank you, Chuck, the chikon In Chehenni, and the Nedni 71 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: Yeah great, okay, so the so what was the first 72 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: one again? But donke hey, that's much better than mine. 73 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: But all of these groups, these four bands that formed 74 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: the ch Chirkawa apache Um total maybe people at their 75 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: at their largest um population size UM. And despite that 76 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: really small number, they produced some really famous people like 77 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: Geronimo CoA Cheese Victorio. All of them were Churakawa Apache 78 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: and again they were the central group that fought the 79 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: Apache Wars. They were also the central group that could 80 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: have stemmed off the Apache wars if UM some of 81 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: the Union soldiers that they had to deal with had 82 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: taken them a different way. That's right. Uh. And you 83 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: know I mentioned that there were a lot of misunderstandings 84 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: and mix ups along the way, and combine that with 85 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: the fact that, um, the settlers just thought they were 86 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: all Apache and that they all were the same. There 87 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: were misunderstandings like, uh, you know, a raid would happen 88 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: on a camp, and this was one of the the 89 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: ways that the Apache got by, as they would, you know, 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,679 Speaker 1: not because they didn't like somebody, because they needed supplies 91 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: and stuff. They would raid a camp, take some stuff, 92 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: and the settlers would think, well, this is just this 93 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: is the Apache. It's all of you doing this, whereas 94 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: it might be one very small group and the other 95 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: groups will be like, I don't even know what you're 96 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: talking about, right, And that's why I was saying, you 97 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: can't really paint the the people we call the Apache 98 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: with this very large brush, because some of them worked 99 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: very closely and for the U. S. Military to go 100 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: find other Apache. UM. Even within the Cherikawa there were 101 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: totally different ideas on how to approach and deal with 102 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: the Americans. UM. There was a big division that developed 103 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: through the Apache wars in among the Apache of you know, 104 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: some of them were like, look, we cannot defeat this enemy. 105 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: The best thing we can do and to hope to 106 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: live peacefully is to just settle down and start farming 107 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: and live on these reservations that they're they're making us 108 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: live on. And the other groups said, no where. We 109 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: need to fight to the death for our ancestral lands 110 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: and our old ways of life. And so there's a 111 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: lot of nuance, there's a lot of difference. There's a 112 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: lot of disagreement among these people who are living and 113 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: fighting during the Apache Wars, and even some of the 114 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: ones that wanted to live peacefully were frequently worst into 115 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: fighting like that was their only choice. Um. And so 116 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: it's it's just really important to keep in mind that 117 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: you you can't just just like you can't say Apache 118 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: and that's just one nation because it's not. UM. You 119 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: also can't just say, well, all the Apache thought this way, 120 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: or even all the Cherikawa thought this way. There was 121 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: just a lot of a lot of difference, and there 122 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: was also a lot of room four different opinions, because, 123 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: like you said, the groups that they lived in really 124 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: were usually no more than twenty five or thirty and 125 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: a family or a couple of families exactly, and they 126 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: were often related by blood and marriage, and it was 127 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: a matrilineal society too. So if you were a man 128 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: and you married a woman, you joined your your wife's 129 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: family from that point on. And so these bands, these 130 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: four bands of the Cherikawa were um were very much 131 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: related to one another because they would often swap you know, 132 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: UM members through marriage and alliances. That's right. So uh 133 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: I mentioned the raids as a way of life for them. UM. 134 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: That is different than like there was no malice involved. 135 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: That was different from like an actual skirmish or a 136 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: battle when the warriors would would take center stage and 137 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: that was serious stuff. They were um. They were people 138 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: that very much uh wanted revenge when they were wronged, 139 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and that's when those sort of really bloody skirmishes would 140 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: take place, as opposed to the raids, which was uh 141 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: them you know, getting food and supplies and ammunition and 142 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah. There was an author of a 143 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: book called the Apache Wars, a guy named Paul Andrew 144 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: Hutton said that they likened them to the Vikings, that 145 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: they just like rating was out of economic necessity. The 146 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: thing is that they were also again camp paying them 147 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: all with one brush. There are plenty of them that 148 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: were raiders UM, and all of them apparently engaged in raiding, 149 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: but some much more than others. And then the ones 150 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: that didn't raid so much, they might farm a little more, 151 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: or they might engage in peaceful trade with their neighbors. 152 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: But the the one commonality that basically all groups labeled 153 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: as APACHE seemed to have had was a a UM 154 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: like an enemy in Mexico, first the Spanish and then 155 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: later Mexico, where like if you were caught by Mexican 156 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: and you were an Apache, or you were a Mexican 157 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: and you were caught by Apache, you were going to 158 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: face the very brutal, unhappy and UM almost immediately like 159 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: there they were. They weren't gonna like release you as 160 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: a hostage or negotiate for your release. You were going 161 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: to be killed horribly. Yeah. And they were united, uh 162 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: sometimes with the settlers against Mexico, so much so that 163 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: I believe one of the chiefs told Kit Carson, who 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: was an American scout in six like, hey, we'll team 165 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: up with you to fight Mexico. That's how much we 166 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: hate Mexico. Yeah. That chief was Mangus Colorados, and he 167 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: was actually one of the UM, one of the first 168 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: rate leaders at this time, at this moment in history 169 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: when the Americans first started showing up, and he was 170 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: very much interested in peace with the Americans. Um, not 171 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: even necessarily out of necessity, but like you said, like 172 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: the common enemy was Mexico, and he thought Americans were 173 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: great because they hated Mexico as much as as the 174 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:23,359 Speaker 1: Apache did. That's right. The one problem with the Chiricawa 175 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: is that they had a nice place where they lived. 176 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: I mean, they were seasonal um migrators, and so they 177 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: would kind of move around. But um one of the 178 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: main places that they hung out was south south of 179 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: the Gila River in Arizona, and it was a really 180 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: really good place to be. So that means, of course, 181 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: as westward expansion happens, or as we'll see later, as 182 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: the Civil War happens and then Union troops head west 183 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: to try and keep it from falling into the hands 184 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: of the Southerners, that's gonna be a place where they're 185 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: gonna go. They're gonna be wagon trains going through there. 186 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: Eventually there's gonna be railroads going through there. And so 187 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: there was bay Slean. No chance that the Chiricawa were 188 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: just gonna be left alone to do their thing. No, 189 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: but this was their ancestral land, and they weren't exactly 190 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: you know, ones to leave other people alone through their 191 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: rating um and wars for revenge. So like again, like, 192 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: the stage was definitely set for Apache wars, but it's 193 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: wrong to say that they were inevitable. And the reason 194 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: why I was wrong to say that they were inevitables 195 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: because there was some early stuff that happened that didn't 196 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: have to happen that really kind of kicked this off. 197 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: But I propose we take a break before we start 198 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: talking about those things. Let's do it. Okay, We'll be 199 00:11:34,320 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: right back, Okay, Chuck so Um. One of the first 200 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: things that was um that that a lot of people 201 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: point to is the thing that kicked off the Apache war, 202 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: uh or wars I should say, took place in eighteen 203 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: sixty one, and it came to be known as the 204 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: Bascomb affair. And from what I saw, almost every site 205 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: that writes about Lieutenant George Bascombe wrote that he was young, inexperienced, 206 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: over enthusiastic, over zealous even, and pretty much incompetent when 207 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: it came to something as tense and unsure as negotiating 208 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: for the release of hostages. Yeah, and that's exactly what 209 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: happened in eighteen sixty one. The uh this is when 210 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: I didn't look up the Arab vapor um I'm going 211 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: with are of IPA. Okay. They were yet another band 212 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: of Apache that rated a farm of a settler named 213 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: John Ward. Went off to the Chiricawa Mountains, which is 214 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,599 Speaker 1: where Coach Hee was. And you know, they did the 215 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,599 Speaker 1: usual stuff. They took livestock, but they also made the 216 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: mistake of kidnapping UH John Ward's stepson, Felix Ward, which 217 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: is when UH Lieutenant Bascombe was sent in to bring 218 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: them to justice to negotiate something. He invites Coach Hee 219 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: to a meeting and again they went to Coaches's territory. 220 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: He was not behind this. And when he got in 221 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: a tent with Coach Yese and said, this is what 222 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: you did. This is one of those was those things 223 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: Coach he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Man, 224 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: We had nothing to do with this. But here's what 225 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: I'll do. I'll try and find out I'll try and 226 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: find out who was behind this, and I'll track him 227 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: down and I'll bring him to you. And Bascomb said, 228 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: and which was a pretty good deal. Considering he didn't 229 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: have anything to do with it, and Bascomb said, no, 230 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: and you know what, You're gonna stay here as our 231 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: hostage along with your family members and coach he said, 232 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I'm gonna cut a hole on 233 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: this tent in the middle of the night and leave. 234 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: They're like, how did he cut a hole in the tent? 235 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: It doesn't make any sense. He disappeared, but he he 236 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: had to leave his family behind to make his escape, 237 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: and UM Bascombe now had his family as hostages. So 238 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: Coachiefs went out UM and got his own hostages. They 239 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: raided a wagon train and a stage coach and got 240 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: both Mexican and American hostages. And the Mexicans they dispatched 241 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: immediately in some really terrible way. They tied them to 242 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: a wagon and then lit the wagon on fire. UM. 243 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: So the Mexican hostages had zero chance, but the Americans, 244 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: UM coach he's kept alive UH to to use as 245 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: UM pawns. And in negotiating the release of his own 246 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: family UM, and apparently Bascombe was unmoved. He said, no, 247 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: we're not releasing your family until we get that livestock 248 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: and that UM that kid that was initially kidnapped back 249 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: that's that's how your family's gonna get released. And so 250 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: after a few days of trying to negotiate U an 251 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: exchange of hostages, UM Coachife ordered the American hostages killed, 252 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: and then Bascomb ordered Coaches's family killed, which is really 253 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: something for a US Army officer to do, but that's 254 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: what happened. They were executed. Um. The women were let go, 255 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: but Um Coaches's favorite brother was among the ones that 256 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: were killed, and that did not sit very well with 257 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: Coach Cheese. That a lot of people say the baskemb 258 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: affairs what kicked off the the the Apache wars. Not 259 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: everyone agrees. Actually, there's there's other stuff that came later, 260 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: just real quick. The death of of Um Mangus Colorados, 261 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: that really important early chief who wanted to allie with 262 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: the Americans. In eighteen sixty three, he was invited for 263 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: peace talks and Um was held and executed. Um. The 264 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: peace talks were just a ruse, and he was grossly mutilated. 265 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: After he was murdered, they cut his head off, boiled 266 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: the skin from his goals, and its goal off to 267 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: a phrenologist in New York. Um and a lot of 268 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: people say that's probably what what started the Apache wars, 269 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: because not only was that a brutal way to treat 270 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: Mangus Colorados is very respected chief, but it also showed that, like, 271 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: you couldn't trust the Union Army to engage in actual 272 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: peach peace talks. They might just kill you. They might 273 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: just as soon kill you. And also they killed a 274 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: really big ally and studying hand among the Cherikawa. Alright, 275 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: so I mentioned earlier the Civil War getting cranked up 276 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: back east and Union soldiers coming out to kind of 277 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: you know, safeguard or at least protect Southerners from coming 278 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: into the American Southwest, and all of a sudden that 279 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: Cherikawa there, like, hey, if we want to do some rating, 280 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,359 Speaker 1: this is pretty great because they've got all kinds of supplies, 281 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of munitions, and it's a pretty pretty good 282 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: group of people to try and raid. And how some 283 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: of these raids went down as far as the military 284 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: is concerned, Uh, they're a battle in eighteen sixty two 285 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: that was pretty typical is that they would raid the military, 286 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: but the military it was far more outguns them. And 287 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: so the Apache retreat, but a retreat to the Apache 288 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: was not some bad thing. It was actually a tactic 289 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: because they could just sort of They're like, why just 290 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: get slaughtered because of pride when we can retreat and 291 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: really disappear into the desert and like they will not 292 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: find us. We know this land so well, we can 293 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: really hide out here because we're few in number and 294 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: we know this territory. And there are historians that basically 295 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: agreed that say, you know, if it wasn't for Apache 296 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: that ended up working with the military to turn on 297 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: their own people, like they could have never been found 298 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: if they didn't want to be. Yeah, and it wasn't 299 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: even necessarily turning on their own people. Again, that's looking 300 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: at it through the idea that all Apache were the same. 301 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: But we're talking about like the White Mountain Apache um 302 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: or the Dark Rocks people Apache like people that that 303 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: were might as well have been enemies to the Cherikawa. 304 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: So like the idea of them working with the army 305 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: as scouts to find these other Apache wasn't you know, 306 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: quite as much as as being like a Benedict Arnold 307 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Yeah, not not turning on their own tribe, 308 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: right right, So um I found Chuck, there's actually a 309 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: confederate UM like officer that's buried in Arizona, because the 310 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 1: Confederacy actually made its way managed to get to Arizona 311 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: and occupied it for a brief time, and they themselves 312 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: also got into skirmishes with the Apache there and one 313 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: of them got killed. So there's a guy that's buried 314 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: who is a Confederate soldier in Arizona. Wow. So, um, 315 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: we should probably talk about the Camp Grant massacre because 316 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: this is a big turning point. We have lots of 317 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: raids and skirmishes and battles and atrocities that have been 318 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: going on during the first Um Apache Wars generally how 319 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: it's kind of loosely gathered together. But the Camp Grant 320 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: massacre in eighteen seventy one, it was a big turning 321 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: point because there of Apa chief Eska Mansen's Um people 322 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: were camped out near um Tucson at an army encampment, 323 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: like peacefully settling there. They were not like scouting or 324 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: doing anything like that. But the people of Tucson were 325 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: worried that there were raiders among them, and so they 326 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: pre emptively massacred the Um the Apache that were there, 327 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: and I think all but eight of the hundred and 328 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: forty four people that were killed in that massacre of 329 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: the Apache um were women and children. UM. And that 330 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: I think something like twenty seven kids were kidnapped and 331 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: sold into slavery and very soon came to work in 332 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: some of the homes of two sons, most affluent families. 333 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: It was a huge atrocity that was carried out by 334 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: the white settlers of Tucson UM and it had a 335 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: huge effect on not just the Um, the arab Apa Apache, 336 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: but also the Chirakawa as well. And it also had 337 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: a big effect on President Grant Ulysses As Grant who 338 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: was furious when he heard about this, and he actually 339 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: threatened to put Arizona under martial law unless this whole 340 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: thing got sorted out. And he sent a peace delegation 341 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: to speak with Coach Cheese to see if they could 342 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: keep this war from continuing on or breaking out further. 343 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: That's right. Uh. So they offered a truce. Uh. They said, 344 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: here's what we'll do. If you agree to move to 345 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: this reservation in San Carlos, then we can have a 346 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: peace treaty and a truce in line. Uh. San Carlos 347 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: was not a good place to be UM. It was terrible. 348 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: The settlers knew this, Uh, the Apache knew this. They 349 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: all called it Hell's forty Acres and so it was 350 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: not a place that they wanted to go. But Coach 351 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: Chiefs negotiated and said, you know what, we're not going there, 352 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: but if we can create our new reservation that's just 353 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: for us and we can come and go as we please, uh, 354 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: then we'll we'll get on board with his truce. And 355 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: Grant said okay, and they had a piece and it 356 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: lasted about four years. Eventually Coach Hes died of stomach cancer, though, 357 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: and that was, you know, one thing that kind of 358 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: weakened the piece. Accord. There was also an incident where, uh, 359 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: there were a couple of Chiricawa Apache who killed two 360 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: white men who didn't give them whiskey fair enough. And 361 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: both of these incidents is basically just sort of chipped away, 362 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden there was no more truce. No, 363 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: because the people who lived in the area were like, 364 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: we don't like this idea that the Cherkawa gets to 365 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: like come and go off of their reservation as they please. 366 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: And in fact, they were staging raids in Mexico, which 367 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: was not part of the treaty, but it was an 368 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 1: oversight UM. And so like all those things combined, like 369 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: especially with the death of coaches like that, that treaty ended, 370 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: UM and so that like this the I think it 371 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: was a four year UM four year peace and when 372 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: that ended, the second Apache Wars began. That's right, Uh, 373 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: and coach he's his son took his place. UM. They said, 374 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: you know basically that UM, that reservation was abolished that 375 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: they were happy with. And they said, well, great, that 376 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: means we can just go back and live on you know, 377 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: wherever you want and and migrate around. And they said, no, 378 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: not really, UM, we'd like you to go back to 379 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: the San Carlos reservation that we know you hate. And 380 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: so they started negotiating. Uh Tazza had another uh Chiricawa 381 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: chief name who chief who j you h who He 382 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: was with Bdonka Hayes And he had a stutter though, 383 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: so he said, I don't like to negotiate in person 384 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: with my stutter. I'm going to have a proxy. My 385 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: brother in law, uh Goyakla is going to speak for me. 386 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: He's a medicine man, but you might know him by 387 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: his other name Geronimo And everyone went, WHOA, right, we've 388 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: heard of him, Uh, Geronimo. By this time, he was 389 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: already nicknamed as Geronimo, because it was the Mexicans who 390 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: gave Geronimo his nickname, and still to this day, no 391 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: one knows what the heck they meant by that. It 392 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 1: turns out that Geronimo is a really rare Italian version 393 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: of the name Jerome. And we're talking about Mexican and 394 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: Spanish people, not Italian, so it would be weird for 395 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 1: them to give him the name Jerome. And even if 396 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: they had given him the name Jerome, it wouldn't make 397 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: any sense because that means sacred name. And by the way, 398 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: you know Hieronymous, that's a version of Geronimo. Yeah, but 399 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense. So regardless, it's lost to 400 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: history why they call him Geronimo, but they would shout 401 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: Geronimo during um some raids that he staged in New Mexico, 402 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: and Geronimo went into Mexico because if there was anybody 403 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: who hated among the Apache, who hated Mexican UH people, 404 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: it was Geronimo. He had watched them slaughter his UH 405 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: fame emily, including his mother and his wife, and some 406 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: children um, and he never he never forgot it, He 407 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: never forgave him. In every chance he had to kill 408 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: a Mexican, he he would take it gladly. That's right. 409 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean he was genuinely scarred as a young man. 410 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just like man hell bent on revenge. 411 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: It was man who suffered like deep deep draumas uh, 412 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: losing his family like this, so you know, that's where 413 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: all that came from. But he was a complicated guy. 414 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: He was you know, if you talked to Americans, he 415 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: was known as quote the worst Indian that ever lived 416 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: end quote. He had a bad temper, he was paranoid. 417 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: He was a fierce fighter who would not hang back, 418 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, and like shoot arrows from long distances. He 419 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: would charge the enemy and running his zigzag so he 420 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't get hit with a bullet, although apparently he did 421 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: get hit with a bullet quite a bit, as we'll 422 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: find out later. And then he would knife people and 423 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: take their guns and he didn't even know how to use. 424 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: Once he would take guns back to the other apache 425 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: so he got this nickname. Uh. They as like Mexicans 426 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: would shout it to warn each other, and then it 427 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: became something that the Apache latched onto as like a 428 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: chant of enthusiasm. Right. And so Geronimo was never a chief. 429 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: He became a leader, but he was never a chief. 430 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: And apparently he really didn't like people who um accidentally 431 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: confused him as a chief. Um. But he he had 432 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: like a lot of say, being a medicine man for 433 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: the badonky he right, m um, and but be being 434 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: that proxy of the actual chief who. So he was 435 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: part of these talks and the the the idea was 436 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: or the the decision was between who and Tazza and 437 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: Geronimo that um. The the Apache could either move to 438 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: the San Carlos Resignation Reservation, which had been designated for Apache, 439 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: or they could live life on the run um and 440 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: basically be died and exterminated by the U S Army. 441 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: That was their choice. And so Tazza, who was the 442 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: son of coaches and it was his designated air, said, 443 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 1: I we should we should, Like my father knew, like 444 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: there's no way to defeat these people. We need to 445 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: just you know, live in peace with them. And I 446 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: guess it means we have to move to the San 447 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: Carlos Reservation. Something like a third of the Apache followed him, 448 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: but two thirds said, now we're going to go the 449 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: way of Geronimo and who, and that is to just 450 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: basically escape and start staging raids and fighting and living 451 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: life on the run. Yeah, and Geronimo, this is really 452 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: the point in time where his legend really began to 453 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: grow as far as the Americans are concerned. And he was, uh, 454 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: like I said, he was a complicated guy. He would um, 455 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: he would get criticized by his own people for for 456 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: for you know, not giving up when he should, for 457 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: being reckless in their eyes with some of these young 458 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: soldiers who weren't as prepared as they need to be, 459 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: And was basically always just sort of like, at this point, 460 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: at least go full bore and try and win these 461 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: battles as like brutally as possible. So this was happening. 462 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: He was getting a reputation among his own people at 463 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: some points. Uh. There was a point in eighteen eighty 464 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: three where he staged a raid on that San Carlos reservation, 465 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: captured another Chira Cowen leader named Chief Loco and two 466 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: hundred of his followers and basically at gunpoint said you're 467 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: with me now, and you got to help us fight. 468 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: So he was uh, he wasn't always looked upon the 469 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: best by his own people, even because of stuff like this. Yeah, 470 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: I mean Chief Loco and his followers were like, no, 471 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: we're just trying to um, We're just trying to live peacefully. 472 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 1: Leave us alone, and and Gerano was said now, so 473 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: they were kind of pressed into service other groups. He 474 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: he in his band attracted just because they wanted to 475 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: fight too. It was that division of no, we need 476 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: to protect our ancestral lands and our old ways of living, um. 477 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: And so he attracted like Chief Chihuahua, Chief Nana, who 478 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: was also a Chehenney like Chief Loco. And that actually, um, 479 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: that that that kind of shows that division of opinions 480 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: and thoughts where Chief Loco is like, no, we need 481 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: to live, we need to live peacefully, and he was 482 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: a Cheheney. Um. Chief Nana was also a Cheheney, and 483 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: he was like, no, I'm he was at Geronimo side 484 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: throughout this entire fight. There's a lot of people say 485 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: that Chief Nana he was very old even during this time. Um, 486 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: and he lived to be a very old man. But 487 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: he also died fighting. They think that he probably killed 488 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: more Americans than any apache in history, just because he 489 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,479 Speaker 1: was um, he fought so much and he lived for 490 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: so long. He's apparently also a really brilliant strategist as well. Alright, 491 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: so should we take a break or should we wait? 492 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: We could take a break. Is this our second one? 493 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: I've lost track because this is a thrilling story. Al Right, 494 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: let's take our second break and we'll pick back up 495 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: right after this. Okay. Alright, So at this same time, 496 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: kind of concurrently to Geronimo and all all his battle 497 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: and going on the Chaheney started to fight uh the 498 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: Americans at the same time. And they did this because 499 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: of another kind of a weird incident um caused by Geronimo, 500 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: almost an accident. Uh. He escaped. He had a knack 501 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: for escaping. He was really good at that. We'll see 502 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: time and time again. If you had Geronimo, you didn't 503 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: have him for very long. So he escaped and snuck 504 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: onto a reservation at uh Oho Caliente. And this was 505 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: this was kind of a big deal. Like they weren't 506 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: supposed to be there. They were supposed to Chihaney were uh, 507 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: they were supposed to be at San Carlos. They had 508 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: set up this other reservation, and again it was you know, 509 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: no one knew they were there because things were so 510 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: spread out. They were living peacefully. But this Geronimo escaping 511 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: and going to their encampment, they were like, hey man, 512 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: thanks a lot, Like now everybody knows we're here. He 513 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: brought the head. Yeah, put the serious heat on them 514 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: to the point where they said, you know, if you're 515 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: off of this reservation, you're gonna be shot on site. 516 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: And this kind of launches another one of the Apache 517 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: Wars or another part. Yeah. The Warm Springs band of 518 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: the chiheny Um were led by Chief Victorio, and they 519 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: were forced now that they now that they were found 520 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: out that they were living on Oho Caliente, which I 521 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: guess was, you know, a nicer reservation as far as 522 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: reservations went, that they were supposed to be in San Carlos. 523 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: They were faced with the same decision, go live in 524 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: this hell of San Carlos or live on the run. 525 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: And so Chief Victorio said, all right, we've been living peacefully. 526 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: We gave it a shot. The jig is up. Now 527 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: we are going to go back to living on the run. 528 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: And for two years Chief Victoria and his band was 529 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: were staging their own Apache war uh, concurrent with Geronimo 530 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: and his band staging a different Apache war, and Chief 531 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: Victoria's war in the band that that followed him were 532 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: so effective that Mexico and America, which hated each other, 533 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: still had been engaged in the Mexican American War less 534 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: than a decade before. UM, and we're just not fast 535 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: friends by any measure. Um, Mexico allowed the US to 536 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: UH have its army into Mexico and chase Chief Victorio 537 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: and his band. That's how much they were hated by 538 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: both the Mexicans and the Americans. And and um, that's 539 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: the links that they went to. And apparently they were 540 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:58,239 Speaker 1: actually eventually found by a Mexican American joint expedition. The 541 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: Mexican contingent said to Mary Ricans, you should probably leave, 542 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: and that deep, deep, centuries old hatred between the Mexicans 543 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: and the Apache was really kind of brought to the foe, 544 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: and the Mexican slaughtered Victoria. Right up until this point, though, 545 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: Victoria had a lot of success with only about a 546 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty warriors to fight with, and one of 547 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: the big reasons was this woman named losen Uh lowsin 548 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: was was pretty incredible and someone who I mean not 549 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: certainly not lost to history, but someone that you probably 550 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,719 Speaker 1: never learned about in in like high school history. So 551 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: she was Victoria's sister, known as the apache Joan of arc. Uh. 552 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: She was a Chiheney Chiricawa medicine woman. She was a 553 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: great fighter, she was a great strategist. She uh, she 554 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: was wise beyond her years. She would she would kind 555 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: of do anything. I mean, there were great legends of 556 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: her like, uh, like helping to give birth on the 557 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: battlefield in the desert. Uh, and then like you know, 558 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: going right back to fighting and did a little Stevie 559 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: Nicks kind of deal where apparently she would hold her 560 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: hands out to the side and pray and lift her 561 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: palms up and turn in a circle. And uh, she said. 562 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: And then of course this is this is lore. But 563 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: she said that she could she would know the direction 564 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: where the enemy was coming from from these tingles that 565 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: she would get and depending on how intense the tingles were, 566 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: she could even tell how far they're away they were 567 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,959 Speaker 1: from them. Yeah, it's still cheer a cow a legend 568 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: today that it was Losen who allowed Victoria in a 569 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: small band of a hundred and fifty people to survive 570 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: for two years, um, as long as they did from 571 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: this this weird special talent she had of knowing where 572 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: the enemy was coming from and how far away they were, 573 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: and sometimes how how strong their troop numbers were. Um, 574 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: and then they would move and dictate like their raids 575 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,959 Speaker 1: based on her basically her visions, um and it was. 576 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: The idea is kind of supported by the fact that 577 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: Lowsen wasn't there when Victorio and the last of his 578 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: band met their end at the hand of the Mexicans. 579 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: She was um off smuggling a woman, a new mother, 580 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: and her newborn infant um back to the reservation so 581 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: that the mom and the baby could live safely. And 582 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: when she got to the reservation, she got news that 583 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: that her brother, Victorio and the rest of the band 584 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: that was fighting with him had all been slaughtered. And 585 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: there's a there's a discrepancy historically about how Victorio died, right, Yeah, 586 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: he either died, you know, fighting until his last breath, 587 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 1: or he took his own life at the last minute. Yeah, 588 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: so um. Either way, all of the band fought, fought 589 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: to their death, and Lowsen wasn't ready to give up 590 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: fighting either she was actually on the reservation and could 591 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: have stayed there. Instead, she immediately made her way to 592 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: go find Geronimo and his band and she joined up 593 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: with them. What if Lowsen had just been stealing uh 594 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: maps and plans from the other side, and she was like, 595 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: watch this. They love this stuff, right, She like does 596 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: the Stevie Nicks, the spin with the palms out kind 597 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: of things. She's like, yeah, they eat this up. I'm 598 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: gonna be a legend. What's this pretty good stuff? Um? 599 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: So now we find ourselves kind of coming towards the 600 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: end of the Apache Wars where things get really interesting. 601 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: When a man named General George Crook arrived on the scene. 602 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: They called him the Tan Wolf because he were Khaki. 603 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: A lot had a knack for Khaki. They had a 604 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,760 Speaker 1: lot of respect for him, he had respect for them. 605 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: He earned his name fighting against the Sioux with Custer 606 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: years ago, but now he was back. I guess he 607 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: was a really good tracker too, because time and time again, 608 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: as we'll see, he tracked down Geronimo. Uh. They were 609 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: holding out in Mexico at this point, and he wanted 610 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: to negotiate, but things were pretty tense at the time, 611 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: So there were still a couple of skirmishes, and I 612 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: think Geronimo Uh and some of his guys were up 613 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: on a cliff above Crook's company and they were kind 614 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: of taunting Uh Crook's Apache scouts. Things were not going well, 615 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: but it ended up in a very strange turn of 616 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: events working out because Krook was a hunter and was 617 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: going off hunting the next day by himself and was 618 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: tracking an animal and ended up tracking this animal or 619 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if he found the animal in the camp, 620 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 1: but eventually made his way right up to Geronimo and 621 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 1: where Geronimo was camped out and was like, oh, hi there, 622 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 1: and Geronimo says, you know what I'm gonna do. I'm 623 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: not gonna kill you, which he totally could have. I mean, 624 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: Krook was there with a single gun by himself, with 625 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: no cover and he just accidentally stumbled upon Geronimo and 626 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: some of his his warriors. That's I can imagine how 627 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: tense that situation was, even Crook knowing that they respected 628 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: him and he respected them. It's still Geronimo like, again, 629 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: what what the the Americans considered the worst Indian that 630 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: ever lived? That's right, so the writing was kind of 631 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 1: on the wall at this point with American encroachment. Geronimo 632 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: was like, there are endless numbers of you guys. You 633 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 1: have way more weapons, way more ammunition, way more supplies 634 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: than we could could ever get, and we've been on 635 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: the run and I don't think, uh, it's gonna work 636 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: out for us in the end. So maybe it's finally 637 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: time to not fight and to sit down at the 638 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: negotiating table, since you seem like someone who was at 639 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: least honorable enough to negotiate something honest. And Geronimo is 640 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: the last holdout to come to this conclusion by this time, 641 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: like it was just he and his band. The rest 642 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: of the APACHE or the rest of the um Chirrakawa 643 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: UM had either concluded that it was best to just 644 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: settle down and and um adapt to reservation life, or 645 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: they had been killed fighting. So for Geronimo to finally 646 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: come to this conclusion, he had been worn out because 647 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 1: he was the kind of just keep going and keep 648 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: going and keep going and inspire others to keep going. 649 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: So he um he decides to surrender to Crook, and 650 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: apparently the surrender lasted a very short time, but one 651 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: of the reasons why he did surrender was Crooks said 652 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: that um, that they would create a new reservation near 653 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: Turkey Creek, which is where Geronimo was born. Um, And 654 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: so they weren't going to move them to San Carlos. 655 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've noticed a pattern or not everybody, 656 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: but when the only option was moved to San Carlos 657 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: or die, very frequently the Apache chose die or fight 658 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: to the death, um, because that's how bad San Carlos was. 659 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: Whenever there was another reservation put on the table, the 660 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 1: APACHE tended to say, okay, we'll we'll go give that 661 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: a shot. So it was really kind of points out 662 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: like how much of this could have been avoided, not 663 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: just from George Bascombe never being involved, or not just 664 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:58,399 Speaker 1: for them torturing and killing mangus uh Colorado, but if 665 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 1: they had just proved the way of living at San 666 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: Carlos or gotten rid of San Carlos and just created 667 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: these other better reservations, the Apache wars might never have 668 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: taken the effect that they had either. You know, It's 669 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: like when Clarice Starling offered Hannibal Lecterer stay on Anthrax Island, 670 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: Plumb Island, Plumb Island. If it had gone a different way, 671 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: if they had offered him a real, like nice place, 672 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: maybe no one else would have died. Maybe they would 673 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: have caught Buffalo Bill before well wait a minute, they did. 674 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: It all worked out just fine thanks to Plumb Island. 675 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: You know, someone a fan of the movie bought the 676 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill House and has h has made it a 677 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: basically a silence of the Lamb's Museum. And I think 678 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: he's building out the basement to where you can airbnb 679 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: it and stay there. Oh boy, that sounds awful. It's 680 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: pretty great, and it's and that's just like the story 681 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: of Germontimo. Is it in um Ohio for real? I don't, 682 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: I don't remember where they're real And because you know, 683 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: very frequently they'll just be like this househol work. No 684 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: one will ever know it's you know, hig oh, no 685 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: one will ever buy this house and turn into Airbnb 686 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: and publicized that it's actually in Colorado. You know, hope 687 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: he makes money off of it. So um So Geronimo 688 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: surrenders a total chuck of four different times surrenders, escape, surrenders, escapes, 689 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 1: um And the reason he keeps escaping is because he 690 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: was about as hated as anyone ever was in this 691 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: stage of American history, not just out West, but even 692 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: back east. He was hated, mistrusted, um And there were 693 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: editorials that he would read written in the local paper 694 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 1: of wherever, whatever reservation he was having, he was being 695 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: held at um that we're calling for his immediate execution 696 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: and murder, sometimes by mobs and vigilante So apparently he 697 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: had a very large weakness for alcohol, and when he 698 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: got drunk, you could really convince him that they were 699 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: going to kill him if he didn't escape. So he 700 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: surrendered and escaped four different times games and on the 701 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: last time, uh, Krook was sent in with different marching orders, 702 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: this time by President Grover Cleveland, who said, there's no 703 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,280 Speaker 1: terms of surrender anymore. Geronimo surrenders unconditionally or he dies. 704 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,320 Speaker 1: And Krook said, that doesn't really sit well with me. Yeah, 705 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: he resigned, and uh, I think ever since then, you know, 706 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: or at least back then, of course, he was really 707 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: looked down upon for doing that by his fellow American soldiers. 708 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: So there's a bounty having integrity. Just want to be 709 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 1: clear about, uh, there's a bounty on Geronimo's head. At 710 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: this point for Grand a lot of money and a 711 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: new general takes over named General Nelson Miles. He was 712 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: sort of the opposite of Krook and that he had 713 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: no respect for the Apache. They had no respect for him. Uh. 714 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: He would do his leading from Fort's many many miles 715 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: away from the real action, and he was he kind 716 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 1: of ruined things in the end. Uh that that we'll 717 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: get to here in a second. But this last summer 718 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: of freedom here in eighty six for the Chericawa, um 719 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: I think it was Natchie was the chief at this point. Yeah, 720 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: and he was Tazza's brother, um who was not bred 721 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: to be chief. But Tazza died on a trip to Washington, 722 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,840 Speaker 1: d C. So now you had a chief that was 723 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: easily manipulated through Geronimo, which just f y I. So 724 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,240 Speaker 1: there was there were only like thirty seven uh free 725 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: Chiricawa at this point that were still down to battle. 726 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,280 Speaker 1: Eighteen of them were the warrior types. There were thirteen 727 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: women and six kids, including a couple of infants. And 728 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: these thirty seven people were on the lamb for five 729 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: full months with a total of about you know, eight 730 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: to ten thousand either Army U S army or Mexican 731 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: soldiers or volunteers trying to find them. It's crazy, like 732 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: they could really blend into their territory. Yeah, they did 733 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: so well at that Chuck. There was only one death 734 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 1: that entire summer of that band of thirty seven, and 735 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: Geronimo was loving it. He was like in retrospect, he 736 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: was like, this was these were the salad days. I 737 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: did some of my best fighting. He's you know, there 738 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: were a few of us. Uh, you know, I I could. 739 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 1: I knew when they were coming. I didn't do the 740 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 1: Stevie Knicks, but I knew. I knew what was going 741 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: to happen before it happened. I was so on my game. 742 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,959 Speaker 1: So that General Miles guy, he came up with a plan, 743 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: like he knew that the UM, the the Apache, the 744 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: Cherikawa that we're on San Carlos Reservation were still very 745 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: closely tied to this band of thirty seven that were 746 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: following Geronimo UM, and so he sent word through two 747 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: Apache scouts that the family members for the four and 748 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: thirty four Churikawa on the reservation had been shipped to 749 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,280 Speaker 1: a prison in Florida, and that if they ever wanted 750 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,279 Speaker 1: to see their family again. They needed to give up 751 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: and surrender, and this proved to be the last draw 752 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: for Geronimo. He said, okay, fine, I'm gonna surrender, and 753 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: he negotiated. He managed to negotiate terms. He agreed to 754 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: be uh to live in exile for two years as 755 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 1: a prisoner of war. But it turned out that the 756 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: the those terms were not honored and he never was 757 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 1: able to to make his way back to his his homeland, 758 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: his ancestral land in South Arizona, New Mexico again after 759 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: he left. That's right, I believe that they were. He 760 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: was reunited with his family eventually in Alabama, UH and 761 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: then moved out to Oklahoma. Yes, neither of which were 762 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: his original You know, I think to the Americans back then, 763 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, look, we're sending you to Oklahoma, where 764 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: you're where your your people are from. So that's probably great, right. Yeah. 765 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: So the problem was that the people who finally did 766 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: make it to Indian Territory in Oklahoma, and again this 767 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 1: is just a male ling hodgepodgs there, like, if you're 768 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: a Native American, this is where you live now Oklahoma. 769 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,760 Speaker 1: It was twenty seven years before any Chirrakawa were allowed 770 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: to move back to their ancestral lands, and at the 771 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: time about a third of them said, no, this is 772 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: our home now. Um, you know, most of us were 773 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 1: born here. A lot of us were born here. So 774 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: there's a Fort Sill, Oklahoma, um contingent of of Churacawa, 775 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 1: and then there's also the Mescalero Reservation Cherracawa that live. 776 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: About two thirds of them moved to that south south 777 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: southern Arizona area where they live still today. And Geronimo, 778 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: if you've ever seen uh, I mean, there are quite 779 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,919 Speaker 1: a few famous portraits and photographs of Geronimo, and that's 780 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: because Geronimo went on to be pretty famous. Uh. He 781 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: later on toured with Buffalo Bill and his side show. 782 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: He would uh, he would sell his little trinkets from 783 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 1: his coat uh to two people who would pay top dollar, 784 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: like buttons, and then he just replaced it with another 785 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: button way for the next person. That's right. And he 786 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: rode and Teddy Roosevelt's election parade, and as legend has it, 787 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people came to see Geronimo more so 788 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: than Teddy Roosevelt. Even he asked personally Teddy Roosevelt permission 789 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: to go back to his ancestral lands, and Teddy Roosevelt refused, 790 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 1: even those long past the two years that he had 791 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: negotiated in the terms of his surrender. Teddy Roosevelt said, basically, 792 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:31,919 Speaker 1: you don't want to go back there. There's too many 793 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: people that want to see you hanged still. And so 794 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,439 Speaker 1: Geronimo actually died on the reservation at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. Um. 795 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,279 Speaker 1: He had been drinking pretty heavily that day, fell off 796 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,439 Speaker 1: his horse, Um and laid in a ditch all night 797 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: and apparently caught pneumonia. And as he was dying, he 798 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: regretted not having fought to the death, even though he 799 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: managed to live to be an old man. Um. And 800 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: in retrospect this the the Apache Wars were Um. Again, 801 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: that was, depending on how you look at it, the 802 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: longest lasting war in American history. And it was also 803 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:14,760 Speaker 1: extraordinarily bloody, especially for the Americans. Remember the Cherikawa numbered 804 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,320 Speaker 1: maybe hundred, and they managed to engage in a twenty 805 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: five year war with the American Army and the Mexican 806 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: Army simultaneously. And there's a famous quote from William to 807 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 1: Comps to Sherman, who said, we had one war with 808 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,359 Speaker 1: Mexico to take Arizona and we should have another war 809 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,759 Speaker 1: to make them take it back. That's how devastating the 810 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:42,360 Speaker 1: Apache Wars were for the Americans. So that's the Apache Wars. 811 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: Oh one other thing, Chuck, So remember I said there 812 00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: was a division among the Cherikawa um about ones who 813 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,319 Speaker 1: were like, we just want to live in peace and 814 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: will adapt a reservation life, and the others they know, 815 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: we have to we have to fight to the death 816 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: for the old ways. Well, now, if you look back 817 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 1: and you go onto the Cherikawa tribe we site and 818 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: you look, they proclaimed themselves to be a peaceful tribe. 819 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: So it turns out that that faction ultimately one out 820 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:12,319 Speaker 1: in the end. Very cool. Do you have anything else now? Okay, Well, 821 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the Cherikawa and 822 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,279 Speaker 1: other Apache groups, there's plenty of really interesting history out 823 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,879 Speaker 1: there for you on the Internet. And since I said 824 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 1: that it's time for listener mail, I'm gonna call this 825 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 1: reminder that we have a lot of episodes. Hello Josh 826 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,799 Speaker 1: and Chuckers. I'm writing you today from Georgetown, Texas while 827 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,399 Speaker 1: currently listening to How Kleptomaniacs Work from two thousand nine, 828 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 1: recently discovered your podcast and love it. So I decided 829 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: to start at the beginning. Do y'all know you'll have 830 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,920 Speaker 1: eighteen and forty three episodes? I don't think that's right. Uh, 831 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 1: and Sarah says, Holy hell, it's taking a while to 832 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,359 Speaker 1: get caught up. I really want to jump to new 833 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,360 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, it's kind of fun and 834 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: interesting to listen to past episodes. For example, will the 835 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: world end in twelve? Dug a bullet on that one. Anyway, 836 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: I just want to send a quick hello, love the show, 837 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 1: Love how you smart guys. That's in quotes, by the way, 838 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,840 Speaker 1: which means she doesn't really mean that, deliver info in 839 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 1: a funny way. I also love that I get your 840 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: random references to off the wall stuff Simpson's episode, old 841 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,680 Speaker 1: school band names, et cetera. Keep up the great work. 842 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,759 Speaker 1: You can't wait to hear what the future holds I 843 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: E episodes. That is from Sarah A yes, well, Chuck, 844 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,440 Speaker 1: think about how red Sarah's face is going to be 845 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,720 Speaker 1: when she finally gets to the episode where you suggest 846 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 1: sandwiching episodes. I know, well, I'm gonna tell Sarah. We'll 847 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: see what happens here. Okay, I'm gonna tell her I'm 848 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,359 Speaker 1: reading this listener mail. We'll see if we can't tempt her. 849 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: I won't even tell her which episode it said. Okay, 850 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: so she'll hear this in like twenty seven years. No, no no, no, 851 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let her know, and she may she may 852 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: start listening to your episodes. You know what I'm saying. Okay, Well, 853 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: I think we've reached the end of this episode. And 854 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: if you want to be like Sarah and get in 855 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,160 Speaker 1: touch with us, you can send us an email to 856 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:07,240 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should 857 00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,680 Speaker 1: Know is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 858 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:13,680 Speaker 1: podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 859 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H