Speaker 1: At the time the sand Hills came along, most of
Speaker 1: the courses being built in the world were demographically driven.
Speaker 1: The principle was you had to have population to support
Speaker 1: the courses, and the courses went where people wanted to go.
Speaker 1: Dick flipped that one hundred and eighty degrees built a
Speaker 1: course where the average population is two people per square mile.
Speaker 1: He was doing the well the proverbial field of dreams.
Speaker 1: You don't know the logo on the fire nobody getting tied.
Speaker 1: This is the fire pit with Matt Chenella.
Speaker 2: Welcome Back, Settle in episode seven is more on the
Speaker 2: partnership that I considered the best in the era of
Speaker 2: modern minimalist golf course architecture. Bill Core and Ben Crenshaw
Speaker 2: are currently building their thirtieth course in thirty five years
Speaker 2: of working together. The two stories we tell today are
Speaker 2: about the Kapitalua Plantation Course on Maui and sand Hills
Speaker 2: in Nebraska. Both have had significant impact on their careers
Speaker 2: as well as golf in America. In episode six, Part
Speaker 2: one of Core and Crenshaw, we told the story of
Speaker 2: Bill and Ben's early influences as it relates to course design,
Speaker 2: how they met, who was involved, and why they decided
Speaker 2: to team up. We left off in nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 2: Bill cor of a small town in North Carolina, already
Speaker 2: had worked for Pete Dye and had worked on or
Speaker 2: built three courses, all in Texas, Waterwood, National, King's Crossing
Speaker 2: and Rockport Country Club.
Speaker 1: And knew I like certain courses and certain yeah. Thanks,
Speaker 1: And I'd try to figure out why, but I really
Speaker 1: wasn't that much into it. And when I saw what
Speaker 1: Pete was doing, a little public course called O Colum
Speaker 1: in high Point, I just said, Gee, this is different.
Speaker 1: I wonder how you do this.
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Ben Crenshaw was the Master's champion in nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 2: and in nineteen eighty five Ben had married Julie. He
Speaker 2: had started working with Scottie Sayers, a lifetime friend who
Speaker 2: became his business manager. And physically he had health issues
Speaker 2: which was causing problems both on and off the course.
Speaker 2: And yet after meeting Bill and walking Rockport Country Club,
Speaker 2: he had decided he found a guy who shared the
Speaker 2: same design philosophies. Bill Corr was the partner Ben needed
Speaker 2: to build golf courses.
Speaker 3: It was just unbelievable how this happened. Nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 3: Nineteen eighty five is when Wade decided to make a
Speaker 3: go at this, and that was the year I married Julie.
Speaker 3: So I made two really good decisions.
Speaker 2: But it was Bill who resisted the idea of partnering
Speaker 2: with someone for the sake of a name.
Speaker 3: We wasn't really interested, you know, I can understand that.
Speaker 3: And when it finally it came around and said, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe we could give this a go.
Speaker 2: Which brings us back to the end of nineteen eighty five, Bill,
Speaker 2: Ben and Scotti were in on this partnership. Julie Crenshaw
Speaker 2: still had her doubts.
Speaker 1: And I was like, are you sure you want to
Speaker 1: do this? You know, because he was struggling with his health,
Speaker 1: struggling with his game. We just got married.
Speaker 3: We weren't even certain he was ever going to play
Speaker 3: competitive golf again.
Speaker 2: Having been told for a few years and by several
Speaker 2: potential clients that they liked his work, but that if
Speaker 2: he partnered with a recognizable name, it would help sell
Speaker 2: the finished product. Core was already noticing that Crenshaw was
Speaker 2: getting their team seats at bigger and better meetings, and
Speaker 2: there was even some interest from national media.
Speaker 1: Ben new and I knew Ron Whitten, whom you've known
Speaker 1: for so many years, who was the architectural editor of
Speaker 1: Golf Digest. Ron Whitten came to Austin to interview us
Speaker 1: for a story to do about this partnership we had found.
Speaker 1: Now obviously that story, the whole foundation of it is
Speaker 1: Ben's reputation and background and playing career. And here he is,
Speaker 1: he's going to get involved in this design partnership. But
Speaker 1: Ron Witten comes in with a tape recorder and we're
Speaker 1: going to have this interview. He turns a tape recorder on,
Speaker 1: he lays it on the table and the first question
Speaker 1: he asked is, so you formed this design partnership. What's
Speaker 1: the name of the company. And there's just silence. We
Speaker 1: had never talked about it. I'm not sure i'd ever
Speaker 1: th aught about it. Ben is the one who spoke
Speaker 1: up and he said the name of the company is
Speaker 1: Core and Crenshaw. There was no reason not to put
Speaker 1: Bill up front.
Speaker 3: He's the man.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'll tell you what. Even to this day,
Speaker 1: Bill leads our team. He's the leader. When he asked later,
Speaker 1: I remember asking him after us, how did you come
Speaker 1: up with that? It's an alphabetic order, but it sounds better.
Speaker 2: Ben makes a good point. Core and Crenshaw sounds better
Speaker 2: than Crenshaw and Core. But I asked Ben when he
Speaker 2: says Bill is the leader, what exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3: Interest supersedes length? And yeah, the whole world is enamored
Speaker 3: with link. But interest is what I saw in Rockport
Speaker 3: Country Club.
Speaker 2: He Die Roy, Die, Rod Whitman, Jack Nicholas, Dave Carry,
Speaker 2: Charlie Bellair, Mike McKay and Jerry Scrooge Clark were all
Speaker 2: key to this match, which one developer predicted would be
Speaker 2: a quote disaster, had to start. He actually looked smart.
Speaker 1: We started two projects. That was our goal, to try
Speaker 1: to do two courses at once, you know, at the
Speaker 1: same time if anyone would ever hire us. We weren't
Speaker 1: sure that was ever going to happen, but it did.
Speaker 1: We began two projects. Neither one of them were completed.
Speaker 1: Both of them we actually had holes roughed and ready
Speaker 1: for irrigation, and they both fell by the way during
Speaker 1: the savings and loan crisis of the late nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1: And in the process of that we committed to two
Speaker 1: other projects and lo and behold, the same thing happened.
Speaker 1: So we spent the first two years of our partnership
Speaker 1: producing zero nothing. I guess it was maybe a year
Speaker 1: and a half, or could have been two years after.
Speaker 1: He wrote the initial piece for Golf Digest, and in
Speaker 1: it he said that we were the only two people
Speaker 1: that ever formed a design partnership and then immediately retired
Speaker 1: because that's what it looked like we had done. We
Speaker 1: produced nothing. The cupboard was a little bear.
Speaker 2: Of the four courses they started. The first was in Austin,
Speaker 2: which was called Uplands, the second in Magnolia. They had
Speaker 2: shaped eleven greens before they stopped the project. Almost thirty
Speaker 2: years later. That property became blue Jack National and Tiger
Speaker 2: Woods Design. The third corn crunch on Missfire, was in Baltimore,
Speaker 2: and the fourth was in Colorado, two miles from where
Speaker 2: they'd eventually build the Colorado Golf Club. I asked Bill
Speaker 2: if the start stops were important to getting them where
Speaker 2: they needed to go as a team.
Speaker 1: I can't truthfully say I've ever given it thought about
Speaker 1: it in that way, but instantly my reaction is yes,
Speaker 1: it was a very in spite of the fact to
Speaker 1: how frustrating and difficult it was. It gave us the
Speaker 1: opportunity to spend time together on sites, with the guys
Speaker 1: with you in the process of shaping in holes and
Speaker 1: going from concepts to on the ground, you know, reality,
Speaker 1: and it was invaluable, you know, looking back on it,
Speaker 1: in some ways, it could very well have been the
Speaker 1: best thing that could have happened.
Speaker 2: Back in the late eighties, Ben had a full time
Speaker 2: job on the PGA Tour. In nineteen eighty eight, he
Speaker 2: had ten top tens. He won Durau finished top twenty
Speaker 2: in all four majors, which included a fourth at the
Speaker 2: mass Sters Bills on the income was building golf courses
Speaker 2: and he needed a win. He found one doing a
Speaker 2: solo project in France.
Speaker 1: The company had to do a loan, and I'll assure
Speaker 1: you that loan was underwritten not by my financial statement.
Speaker 1: It was a boy bends and instead that we could
Speaker 1: stay in business and and the other part of that, Matt,
Speaker 1: you're correct. I went to went to France. We did
Speaker 1: a golf course in Bordeaux. Golf maydoc for a guy
Speaker 1: who became such a good friend through the years, Bernard
Speaker 1: Pascasio and me.
Speaker 4: Perception of golf and then mine, I both like tradition
Speaker 4: and golf course you know in the like Millfield in Scotlan,
Speaker 4: or Pine Valley or sey Presspine, uh which all the
Speaker 4: same thing, approvissiable for the amateur and competitive for the
Speaker 4: professional player.
Speaker 2: Bernard Pascasio dipped in and out of the European Tour
Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy one to nineteen eighty nine. He won
Speaker 2: fifteen tournaments in France and played in nine World Cups.
Speaker 2: The Chateau Course at Gulf Demydoc opened in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: nine and is considered one of the best courses in
Speaker 2: France to this day. It remains the only cores or
Speaker 2: corep in Crenshaw design in Europe.
Speaker 4: Bill is a real strategy genius and respective of Natvia,
Speaker 4: Bill is honest and I respect him very much. I
Speaker 4: am proud and happy to know him and the best
Speaker 4: in friend.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Back in Texas and still in the eighties they had
Speaker 2: another bike. Scottis's stepfather was helping develop Barton Creek in Austin.
Speaker 2: The first course went to Tom Fazio Corn Crenshaw. We're
Speaker 2: on deck.
Speaker 5: It was an average piece of property and I think
Speaker 5: Ben and Bill did a great job, and there were
Speaker 5: environmental concerns all along the way that slowed that project
Speaker 5: down and really delayed that job where it actually opened.
Speaker 2: After Kapalua kappoloua resort on Maui's north shore, was building
Speaker 2: more golf. Mark Roffing, affectionately known as Mister Hawaii and
Speaker 2: prior to working for NBC in the Golf Channel, was
Speaker 2: put in charge.
Speaker 6: I got involved in the plantation development and kind of
Speaker 6: took the lead role in putting together the golf part
Speaker 6: of the Colin Cameron, who was the chairman of Mallyland
Speaker 6: and Pineapple Company, they put in the land. We did
Speaker 6: a joint venture and he said, you're responsible for the golf,
Speaker 6: you figure out how to do it. So off I
Speaker 6: went interviewing golf course architects and had no idea what
Speaker 6: I was wanting from them, because I had no idea
Speaker 6: really what I wanted.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 6: It was kind of a blind leading the blind in
Speaker 6: a little bit of a way, and uh, you know,
Speaker 6: somehow I started talking to Ben Frenshaw.
Speaker 1: It was a.
Speaker 3: Seminal uh golf course in our in our career, and
Speaker 3: you know, and just amazing happened to coincide with my
Speaker 3: marriage as well.
Speaker 1: It's got all these other.
Speaker 3: Dimensions and it and it was as the piece of
Speaker 3: property that I saw first.
Speaker 6: And he told me about this relationship that he had
Speaker 6: developed with Bill Core said, you've got to meet this man.
Speaker 6: You have got to meet this man.
Speaker 1: Ben was was that Coppolo, He and Julie and he
Speaker 1: called and he said, Bill, there's a there's a site here.
Speaker 1: I think we should consider, uh, you know, working with
Speaker 1: And I remember asking him on the phone, I said,
Speaker 1: what does it look like? Ben?
Speaker 3: I saw it that saw playlantation fields out there of
Speaker 3: pineapple everywhere, absolutely gorgeous. And he, Milt said what does
Speaker 3: it look like? And I said, well, it looks like
Speaker 3: land gently rising from the sea.
Speaker 1: I'd never been there, I hadn't seen it, but somehow
Speaker 1: rising gently from the sea conjured up images in my
Speaker 1: mind that didn't quite match what I saw when I
Speaker 1: first got there and went out with Mark Roffing. We're
Speaker 1: standing out there where now the clubhouse, basically where the
Speaker 1: clubhouse is now. I was looking backward up the hill
Speaker 1: where at the eighteenth toll is now, looking down the hill,
Speaker 1: you know, as well, towards where the first hole is,
Speaker 1: and I'm just I'm speechless. I just God, it's got
Speaker 1: a lot of elevation changes the slope and it's beautiful,
Speaker 1: It's stunningly beautiful. But I just didn't know quite what
Speaker 1: to say other than I finally I looked at at
Speaker 1: Mark and I said, Mark, when you and Ben were here?
Speaker 1: And he called me. I said, what were you doing?
Speaker 1: And he said, we brought a couple of coronas and
Speaker 1: we watched the sunset. And I couldn't help it, Matt,
Speaker 1: I just said, well, Mark, I hate to ask this question,
Speaker 1: but how many coronas did you go? Hey out?
Speaker 6: It took me about ten minutes before I fell in
Speaker 6: love with Bill Corr And from that day on it
Speaker 6: was like, you know, talking to the same person. I
Speaker 6: remember asking Bill, you know what's going to happen if
Speaker 6: you and Ben aren't here at the same time, and
Speaker 6: he said, it doesn't matter. When you're talking to me,
Speaker 6: you're talking to him. When you're talking to him, you're
Speaker 6: talking to me. And boy was he right.
Speaker 3: And when you get on the hop or parts of
Speaker 3: the property, there's there's just the most beautiful sites and place.
Speaker 3: It's a big part of the dimension of how how
Speaker 3: the property climbs and then goes back down towards the clubhouse.
Speaker 1: You know, for anyone who's been there, five hundred feet
Speaker 1: elevation change between the seventeenth t and the like the
Speaker 1: second Green, And so we would we'd be out there
Speaker 1: working and I just couldn't help it. But almost every
Speaker 1: opportunity I got when Ben was there, I would just
Speaker 1: somehow say, you know, this is so so good. It's
Speaker 1: so easy to work with. It just rises gently from
Speaker 1: the sea.
Speaker 6: They made you believe that they were going to come
Speaker 6: up with something that really fit the place, and they did.
Speaker 6: You got to remember, too, there was a big tournament
Speaker 6: going on here then.
Speaker 1: So for their.
Speaker 6: First real project, not only did they have an elevator
Speaker 6: change of over four hundred feet seven hundred acres, they
Speaker 6: had to play a PGA Tour event on it. That
Speaker 6: is a very difficult combination of elements and sort of
Speaker 6: ingredients and what had to be cooked up. But it
Speaker 6: never phased him. And you know, every time Bill would
Speaker 6: scratch his head, Ben would smile and laugh, and I
Speaker 6: knew they would figure it out.
Speaker 2: A couple of a plantation opened in nineteen ninety one
Speaker 2: and has been the host of the PGA Tours Century
Speaker 2: Tournament of champions since nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1: It had to be a golf course with the enormous
Speaker 1: scale in terms of the size of the features, the fairways,
Speaker 1: the greens to be just to be playable. We look
Speaker 1: back and just go, you know, it's different. It's a
Speaker 1: very different type of golf course. And I have to say,
Speaker 1: even today, thirty years later or whatever, I don't think
Speaker 1: we would have done it different.
Speaker 2: I asked Mark Ralfing, what would have happened to Corn
Speaker 2: Crenshaw if they didn't beat out guys like Palmer, Nicholas
Speaker 2: and Fazzio for the plantation job.
Speaker 6: Ben and Bill's business was a fledgling business at the time.
Speaker 6: As you say, they've been at it a couple of times.
Speaker 6: I think this was a critical time for them, and
Speaker 6: had the plantation project fallen through for whatever reasons, you know,
Speaker 6: a recession or you know, the Gulf War, if we
Speaker 6: hadn't got in ahead of that, who knows, I think
Speaker 6: their careers could have been decidedly different.
Speaker 5: A funny thing about that is early in the company's history,
Speaker 5: as we were doing the course for Mark Graffing, Mark
Speaker 5: offered us. You know, at that time, our fee I
Speaker 5: think was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and Mark said, well,
Speaker 5: we'll either give you your fee or you can have
Speaker 5: a lot here. Well, we had a bank loan to
Speaker 5: pay off, and Ben and Bill and I wanted to
Speaker 5: take a salary, and we had some employees to pay
Speaker 5: at that time, so we took the money and I
Speaker 5: think that lot so for about five million dollars.
Speaker 6: That was one of the most enjoyable times of my
Speaker 6: entire career, broadcast or anything else. I just loved working
Speaker 6: with Ben and Bill. And you know, when they came
Speaker 6: in and started this Matt there was no Core and
Speaker 6: Crenshaw style. You know, there was no sand Hills, there
Speaker 6: was no friars Head, there was no Old Sandwich. So
Speaker 6: you didn't know what the style was going to be.
Speaker 6: And the thing I loved about him was I think
Speaker 6: part of their theories evolved through the plantation for us.
Speaker 5: So that's sort of landmark number one of the Core
Speaker 5: Crenshaw events. Kapitalua really brought attention to us. The phone
Speaker 5: started ringing in the office. People were talking about golf
Speaker 5: courses and I'm not sure where Dick Young's cap actually
Speaker 5: heard about us or what we were doing, but he
Speaker 5: started coming around in about nineteen ninety two, and we
Speaker 5: were just wondering, what, you know, what is this guy
Speaker 5: thinking about doing a course up in the middle of Nebraska.
Speaker 2: Dick Young's Cap was a developer from Lincoln, Nebraska, who
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety was offered a deal on eight acres
Speaker 2: of land in Mullen, population four hundred and sixty three.
Speaker 2: Young's cap had a hunch and a vision. Now he
Speaker 2: needed money and someone to build a golf course. Core
Speaker 2: and Crenshaw weren't a hard sell. Others had their doubts.
Speaker 1: Ben and Scottie and I were all in the office.
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen very often, but we were all there.
Speaker 1: Dick gets on the phone and he introduces himself and
Speaker 1: he's he's talking about this property that's he's looking at
Speaker 1: in Nebraska, And instantly he says, Nebraska. I'm thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: flat probably maybe maybe not the most interesting property in
Speaker 1: the world. Uh likely. And then Dick very quickly says
Speaker 1: it's in an area called the sand Hills in Nebraska.
Speaker 1: Light bulbs going matt for me and for Ben.
Speaker 3: I had a magazine that I had subscribed to and
Speaker 3: it was it was a It was an artist it
Speaker 3: was a Texas artist magazine, and in in this thing
Speaker 3: it did a layout on the cattle ranches of Nebraska.
Speaker 3: I kept looking at these old photos and I said, got,
Speaker 3: it looked just like Britain in Ireland and Scotland rolling
Speaker 3: sand hills sand Hills of Nebraska.
Speaker 2: As for Bill, he first met ron Whitten in the
Speaker 2: late seventies back in Huntsville, Texas. Went Still, an assistant
Speaker 2: district attorney, was writing a book about golf course architecture
Speaker 2: and stopped in at Waterwood.
Speaker 1: I said something about, what's the best land for golf
Speaker 1: you've ever seen? He said in Nebraska. I got Nebraska,
Speaker 1: And what are you talking about? He said, Bill, There's
Speaker 1: a place called Sandhills in Nebraska. He said, It's just
Speaker 1: some of the most magnificent land for golf I have
Speaker 1: ever seen anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2: And then in the late eighties, Bill was at Prairie
Speaker 2: Dunes in Kansas walking with Doug Peterson, who was the
Speaker 2: superintendent at the time.
Speaker 1: I was walking down the eighth fairway with Doug and
Speaker 1: looking at those heaving contours in the dunes. That Perry
Speaker 1: mix will just lay that incredible that hole on And
Speaker 1: I said to Doug. I said, Doug, can you imagine
Speaker 1: having a piece of property like this to work with?
Speaker 1: And I remember distinctly mad Doug looked at me and
Speaker 1: he goes, Bill, I know where there's land better than this.
Speaker 1: And I'm looking at him, go what what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? How can anything be better than this? He said, well,
Speaker 1: maybe it's not better, it's just more of it. And
Speaker 1: he said into sand Hills and Nebraska.
Speaker 2: Well, needless to say, Bill was in.
Speaker 1: Let's go see it. Let's let's go see it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: Ben and Scottie and I all went up there to
Speaker 1: get our first look at what would become sand Hills
Speaker 1: Golf Club.
Speaker 3: We flew up and we could tell from North Platte.
Speaker 3: We kind of cast our eyes up to the north.
Speaker 3: I said, God, a mighty look at these dunes or
Speaker 3: dunes everywhere. And so he took us up in this
Speaker 3: helicopter and it was the damned this site the rest
Speaker 3: of the day, and looking at all this property, we're going,
Speaker 3: oh my god, it's so vast. We had no idea,
Speaker 3: and Dick wanted us to go up north, which was
Speaker 3: gotten forty five miles up north of North Platte. And
Speaker 3: we're seeing great ground wherever we looked. So we couldn't
Speaker 3: figure that out.
Speaker 1: But we had never seen anything like it. Man, the
Speaker 1: everywhere you looked, you just felt like, this is just incredible.
Speaker 1: It's incredible wild on Earth? Has this not become a
Speaker 1: golf mecca.
Speaker 2: It wasn't exactly love at first sight for all of
Speaker 2: Team Corn Crunshaw.
Speaker 1: Scotty went with us up there to meet Dick Young's
Speaker 1: cap to look at this site. Where Scotty got they
Speaker 1: had a van and admittedly, as Ben said, there's a
Speaker 1: helicopter there. So Ben and I'm getting this helicopter. Now
Speaker 1: we're flying all over We're not talking about a mile
Speaker 1: or two, We're talking many miles, looking at all these
Speaker 1: different dunes, and we land and then we get out.
Speaker 1: Dick youngerscap is in the van with Scotty in the
Speaker 1: back and they're trying to keep up with us in
Speaker 1: the helicopter.
Speaker 5: And so about seven of us get back in this
Speaker 5: suburban and Ben and Bill flow off the helicopter and
Speaker 5: we spent the next six hours chasing bening Bell in
Speaker 5: the helicopter, going all over Nebraska. It seemed like and
Speaker 5: in the meantime, the picnic basket was in the back
Speaker 5: of the van with me, and about five hundred flies
Speaker 5: had gotten into the van, and I'm just thinking, boy,
Speaker 5: this day has got to get over with pretty quick.
Speaker 1: Ben I was really excited. We're looking at all these dudes.
Speaker 1: Poor Scotti is trying not to get sick in the
Speaker 1: back of the car, going around, up and down over
Speaker 1: the fields. So here's impressions when you talk to him
Speaker 1: of the introduction to the sandials would be quite different
Speaker 1: than ours.
Speaker 6: I'll never forget it.
Speaker 5: Those are the big, biggest menus flies I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: Poor Scotti. The best was yet to come.
Speaker 1: I tormented Scotti.
Speaker 3: I said, look, Scotty said, we'll do this for nothing.
Speaker 1: It just Scott He said, oh no, we can't do that.
Speaker 1: Phil Bill.
Speaker 3: When we got Bill and I got there, our minds
Speaker 3: started tournament and how are we going to make this
Speaker 3: work where PEPs can think we're crazy going all the
Speaker 3: way up from North platte forty miles is why isn't
Speaker 3: it closer to civilization? All these questions.
Speaker 2: So Young's cap had his answer to who was going
Speaker 2: to build the golf course? But the time he had
Speaker 2: to raise the money to pay for both the land
Speaker 2: and the golf had an expiration date. Meanwhile, Mike Kaiser,
Speaker 2: recycled greeting cards in Chicago, was on a similar path
Speaker 2: to remote, sand based minimalism. Kaiser had built The Dunes Club,
Speaker 2: a nine hole, private but non pretentious hang in New Buffalo, Michigan,
Speaker 2: and he had found a stretch of gorse choked dunes
Speaker 2: along the southwest coast of Oregon.
Speaker 7: So round Whitten from Golf that just said, Mike, get
Speaker 7: on mind. I'm going to introduce you to Dick Youngscalp,
Speaker 7: because I like what you've done here at the Dunes Club,
Speaker 7: which is built on sand, and I've got this guy
Speaker 7: who's got this great site and you should.
Speaker 1: Talk to him.
Speaker 7: So I ended up talking to Dick Youngscap. I don't
Speaker 7: remember if he called me, which I think is the case.
Speaker 7: And Dick said, I need a money guy, and I said,
Speaker 7: you know, I've already bought land in Abandon and I'm
Speaker 7: trying to assemble the money and the courage to build
Speaker 7: out there. And you've got this remote site in Mullet, Nebraska,
Speaker 7: and you want me to double down with two highly
Speaker 7: speculative adventures.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I know.
Speaker 7: You're going to buy the land, and I'll be part
Speaker 7: of your partnership that is buying the land. But you've
Speaker 7: got to find someone to help you pay for sand Hills.
Speaker 2: Jim Simons was that guy. Young's Cap was originally allocated
Speaker 2: one thousand acres along the Dismal River. Simons would take
Speaker 2: the other seven acres for ranching. But the fundraising didn't
Speaker 2: start at the land. Fresh off the success of the
Speaker 2: plantation course, Mark Rolfing was back in the mix, and.
Speaker 6: They kept saying to me, we'd like to get you involved,
Speaker 6: and I just really had no interest. I thought it
Speaker 6: was one of the stupidest ideas I'd ever heard of,
Speaker 6: a private club in the middle of Nebraska.
Speaker 1: Dick is a.
Speaker 3: Single minded individualist. I mean, they don't make any more
Speaker 3: people like Dick Young's Cap. He possesses very strong opinions.
Speaker 3: He knows what he wants. He's an architect. He's a
Speaker 3: building architect by trade, so he has some semblance of
Speaker 3: building things and he has his opinions. But I cannot
Speaker 3: tell you what a gift that he gave us in
Speaker 3: the opportunity to do something that had never been tried.
Speaker 1: Really, I mean, the.
Speaker 3: Most remote location that anybody could ever think of.
Speaker 6: But in a way I felt a little obligated in Matt,
Speaker 6: I think, And finally I let them talk me into
Speaker 6: going up there. One day we flew up from Austin, Texas,
Speaker 6: three of us being Bennett, Bill, and looked at the property.
Speaker 6: And I'll never forget walking out there with young Scap
Speaker 6: and three or four other guys.
Speaker 1: And looking at this thing.
Speaker 6: And Ben was saying, Kay, you just see you know
Speaker 6: these hole look at how these holds are just gonna lay.
Speaker 6: I couldn't see anything. I looked in every direction, and
Speaker 6: all I kept saying was where's the hotel going to go?
Speaker 1: You know what?
Speaker 6: Okay, howbout the condos? Where we're gonna build the condos?
Speaker 6: And as we started talking more and more I realized
Speaker 6: that that was not what they had in mind at all,
Speaker 6: And then I thought, what am I doing here?
Speaker 1: Very early on, you become aware that the site is
Speaker 1: so good that if you don't produce one of the
Speaker 1: world's outstanding out you failed. It said. You know, there's
Speaker 1: some sites you get that are you know, you don't
Speaker 1: have to do very much to to make them far
Speaker 1: far better than what you expect. But the sand Hills
Speaker 1: there was great potential there to go the wrong way,
Speaker 1: and we knew it. And and that was mostly tied
Speaker 1: into what you said, the fact that you could build
Speaker 1: a hole, you could go in so many directions. At
Speaker 1: first glance, or even after it being unter for days
Speaker 1: and days, you begin to think you can go in
Speaker 1: any direction until you launch off and start walking through
Speaker 1: those dunes and realizing what you think is pretty calm ground,
Speaker 1: Suddenly you just disappear, I mean in huge valleys and
Speaker 1: holes and big ridges, and uh so it's it's not
Speaker 1: like you just could go in any direction, but she
Speaker 1: certainly had huge numbers of options. I have to say.
Speaker 1: The one and the one thing that's kind of, I
Speaker 1: don't know, kind of gotten me a few times is
Speaker 1: I've heard people say, oh, you could build holes anywhere,
Speaker 1: it didn't matter where you put them. NI could just
Speaker 1: each build them anywhere. It would have been just as good.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's the case.
Speaker 6: Man, I'll never get Ben and I went up to
Speaker 6: the public course in Mullin, about ten miles to the
Speaker 6: to the north that day, and we went up there
Speaker 6: to meet some of the local folks and saw the sign.
Speaker 6: When we went in, it was great. It said nine
Speaker 6: holes five dollars, nine hole course nine holes five dollars,
Speaker 6: eighteen holes three dollars. So I asked the kid in
Speaker 6: the shop, I said, how can it be cheaper to
Speaker 6: play eighteen holes than nine holes? And he said, we're
Speaker 6: trying to encourage play, and that's fabulous. I fell in
Speaker 6: love with I fell in love with sand Hills that day,
Speaker 6: and it's just a marvel. And when I saw the budget,
Speaker 6: but what I realized what we were going to do
Speaker 6: was build a golf course and a clubhouse at sand
Speaker 6: Hills for less money than we spent on the cart paths,
Speaker 6: just the cart paths at the plantation course, I said, wow,
Speaker 6: how can I turn this down? So it was really
Speaker 6: an amazing project.
Speaker 2: The deal gets done, there's going to be golf in Mullen.
Speaker 2: But it meant a lot to Young's cap that this
Speaker 2: was well received by the locals. Here's more from Core.
Speaker 1: The coal trains. I mean, I can't hundreds of cars
Speaker 1: I think on the coal trains that are probably kind
Speaker 1: of from Wholming back towards Chicago and they go through
Speaker 1: right through Mullen, Nebraska. And I was seeing there waiting
Speaker 1: one day. It just stopped waiting as the train just
Speaker 1: eached by, it seemed, knowing that it was going to
Speaker 1: be a long long time. And I saw a fellow
Speaker 1: in the pickup truck behind me, and he got out
Speaker 1: of his truck and he walked up next to the
Speaker 1: truck I was in. He just kind of looked at
Speaker 1: me and he smiled and said, you must be one
Speaker 1: of the golf course fellas. And I said, yes, sir,
Speaker 1: I am. He said, well, I reckon, you'll be building
Speaker 1: something out there. It looks like what we see on
Speaker 1: television with water, green grass, trees. I said, no, sir,
Speaker 1: I don't think you'll see any water. I don't think
Speaker 1: you'll see a tree unless it just happens to be
Speaker 1: a volunteer that's there. And I don't think you'll see
Speaker 1: very much green grass. I said. It'll be green of
Speaker 1: a shade, but more like all aver, you know, green,
Speaker 1: than bright green. I said. It's just not the way
Speaker 1: we would envision something happening out here in these dunes.
Speaker 1: And he goes, no water, no trees, no water, no trees,
Speaker 1: no bright green? Right no, no, right, I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that. And he turned around. He walked back
Speaker 1: and he got in this truck. That was probably my
Speaker 1: first time of thinking, you know, this place is so special,
Speaker 1: but we really need to do something here, not just
Speaker 1: for golf, but something that, if at all possible, will
Speaker 1: make these these folks proud that it's there.
Speaker 2: In order to share his vision with the locals, Young's cap,
Speaker 2: whose brother in law was a rancher in the area,
Speaker 2: went as far as putting pictures of courses like Royal
Speaker 2: County down of Northern Ireland in storefront windows throughout Mullen.
Speaker 3: That these people thought we were came from Mars or
Speaker 3: something you're going to do out here. You know, it's
Speaker 3: basically cattle grazing, and they're very dependent, the very proud
Speaker 3: of the way that they live and they work. But gently,
Speaker 3: you know, through Dick Young's Cap and his his relatives,
Speaker 3: you know, had to talk to the local people and say, look,
Speaker 3: these people are okay, don't you know it's gonna work
Speaker 3: out fun. We were gently sort of embraced. But man,
Speaker 3: they mean so much to us because they brought us in.
Speaker 2: They didn't have to, and who doesn't love a story
Speaker 2: about pink flags in the prairie.
Speaker 1: I was by myself walking out in the dunes on
Speaker 1: the right on what is now the tenth fairway at
Speaker 1: San Dials Golf Club. But I was just walking my
Speaker 1: blue jeans and boots, and I had a bundle of
Speaker 1: the surveyor flags and they were bright fuchia pink, and
Speaker 1: so I could see them well and if I found
Speaker 1: a certain situation for what the felt like an interesting
Speaker 1: green site or a te site followed by a landing
Speaker 1: area in the green site. Just I was just flagging
Speaker 1: and I'm making little notations on a piece of paper
Speaker 1: I had. But so I'm standing there with a bouquet
Speaker 1: of bright light, and up over the done ridge from
Speaker 1: the valley comes a herd of cattle. I don't know
Speaker 1: how many. I didn't try to count them, but there
Speaker 1: was There had to have been at least one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty or two hundred head of cattle coming right
Speaker 1: up over the dune ridge where I was. And they
Speaker 1: rode up. First of all, I'm staying there, the cattle
Speaker 1: coming completely surround me. I am just I'm like the
Speaker 1: hole in a doughnut of cattle. And they slowly weave
Speaker 1: through the cattle and come up to me, and one
Speaker 1: guy looks at me, just what are you doing? I said, well,
Speaker 1: to tell you the truth, I'm looking for golf holes.
Speaker 1: Matt the guy who's like a scene out of the movie.
Speaker 1: This guy leans over in his saddle, he looks at me,
Speaker 1: he looks at the pink flags, he looks back at
Speaker 1: his three companions there, and he just he says, man's
Speaker 1: looking for golf holes. They all kind of look at
Speaker 1: me like I'm just some lunatic, of course, and he goes, well,
Speaker 1: good luck to you, fellow, and off they go.
Speaker 2: Not sure how much luck Core neated, but believe it
Speaker 2: or not, he needed more land.
Speaker 1: Here we are, we're out here on a thousand acres man,
Speaker 1: and we lay out the golf course. We were look ever.
Speaker 1: We think we're pretty happy. And then one day Ben
Speaker 1: I both go out there and we start looking just
Speaker 1: a little a little further out, and we didn't know
Speaker 1: quite where the thousand acre boundary was, but we go
Speaker 1: out there and board, you know, that looks pretty good
Speaker 1: over there. Let's walk over there and see what that
Speaker 1: could look like. We got over there and got, yeah,
Speaker 1: that looks pretty nank. You could go over here, and
Speaker 1: then you could go and he ended up being a
Speaker 1: kind of a not really triangle but kind of an
Speaker 1: odd shaped piece back there, and we just immediately changed
Speaker 1: the routing and put our holes out there. And obviously
Speaker 1: we weren't doing any construction. But Dick comes out probably
Speaker 1: the next day, and he comes out and we said, Dick,
Speaker 1: we're gonna we want to go out here and there,
Speaker 1: and he just stands there and he goes, that's not
Speaker 1: on our ground. That's on the ground that it gave
Speaker 1: the gym simes, that's not on our and he basically said,
Speaker 1: how on earth can you not get eighteen holes a
Speaker 1: thousand figures ground.
Speaker 2: Young's cap got that land, Corn Crenshaw got the ultimate routing.
Speaker 2: Mike Kaiser got a low score.
Speaker 7: I had certainly been invited many times that I did
Speaker 7: not go, as I was going to Man and was
Speaker 7: trying to figure out what to do with that. So
Speaker 7: I didn't see sand Hills until I went there with
Speaker 7: three friends to play an inaugural round and basically a
Speaker 7: preview round. The course was probably putting at six. It's
Speaker 7: down the stip meter.
Speaker 1: So it was really new.
Speaker 7: And little did I know until that day that slow
Speaker 7: greens are a lot easier to put on man, You
Speaker 7: know this than the greens that are primed and go
Speaker 7: in twelve. So I actually shot a seventy three, my
Speaker 7: all time best score, and my first and lasting impression
Speaker 7: of sand Hills was that's where I shot at seventy
Speaker 7: three on this totally natural sand sand hills in Nebraska.
Speaker 2: And that was also Kaiser's first impression of corn.
Speaker 7: Crenshaw, Boy, did they do a masterful job in as
Speaker 7: much as they didn't seem to have touched anything. You know,
Speaker 7: you've heard that they found one hundred and twenty holes
Speaker 7: and had trouble going it down to eight running and
Speaker 7: down to eighteen. What I didn't know, and that was
Speaker 7: their claim, is they didn't move much sand. It was
Speaker 7: obvious to my foursome, we're all ad and knowledgeable golfers,
Speaker 7: that this was a defined minimalism.
Speaker 2: As for Crenshaw, he offers more credit to Core for
Speaker 2: the routing.
Speaker 3: He has a way of doing it and that's entirely natural.
Speaker 1: You know. He once said, he said, you know, if you.
Speaker 3: If you're if you're an animal, and you just follow
Speaker 3: the way that they make these trails, and yeah, it's
Speaker 3: maybe the path of least resistance as you go around,
Speaker 3: and if you go by the idea of so if
Speaker 3: you're just kind of having a walk about about a
Speaker 3: piece of property, he has a way of doing that
Speaker 3: that that it fits.
Speaker 1: And and you know, Matt, one of.
Speaker 3: The hardest things that we had to do there is
Speaker 3: actually put the directions of the holes and where they went,
Speaker 3: what sequence, because.
Speaker 1: It was dawning, because we knew we never get a
Speaker 1: piece of property like that. Again. I remember when the
Speaker 1: when the golf course was just about to open and
Speaker 1: Ben and I went out to play and we were
Speaker 1: on the uh we were we were just near the
Speaker 1: sixteenth green, uh and just the two of us, and
Speaker 1: I remember asking Ben, Ben, would you change anything? Do
Speaker 1: you think we missed anything? Do you think what do
Speaker 1: you think? Then he said, Bill, I wouldn't change it.
Speaker 1: I think it's good. I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: And we're talking about exactly where you were, or Matt,
Speaker 1: the flow, the sequence, the variety of the holes, the
Speaker 1: way they fit on the on the landforms. And that
Speaker 1: was without question our biggest fear going into it. And
Speaker 1: even to this day, Man, I spent so much time
Speaker 1: out there and both in those early years and walking
Speaker 1: those dunes in the sight, and I have yet to
Speaker 1: walk out there and go Wow, we should have gone
Speaker 1: over there. We should have done that. We could have,
Speaker 1: but it's just I just haven't second guessed it. And
Speaker 1: for me, and particularly on that site, to say that
Speaker 1: it's pretty big.
Speaker 2: For some final reflections, here's Mike Kaiser.
Speaker 7: What I would say about Dick Youngscap, who's sort of
Speaker 7: publicity shy, oddly because he's.
Speaker 1: Not a shy man.
Speaker 7: He had the courage of his convictions. He saw this
Speaker 7: land in Mullon, Nebraska and said, I see a golf
Speaker 7: court there and so on all the way through, and
Speaker 7: you know, to this day when you're out there, you
Speaker 7: scratch your head, and said, who was the brave man
Speaker 7: who decided to put it all together in sam Hills,
Speaker 7: especially given his background. He'd already done one with Pete
Speaker 7: Dye and Lincoln and could easily have rested on his
Speaker 7: laurels because.
Speaker 1: That was a very well regarded golf course.
Speaker 7: But nope, he found this land and Nebraska just as
Speaker 7: I later, just as I found land and abandoned, and
Speaker 7: decided to repurpose himself as the builder of remote golf
Speaker 7: courses in the middle of nowhere, And boy did it
Speaker 7: work out.
Speaker 2: Man Mark Rawfing on why Core and Crenshaw have become
Speaker 2: so successful.
Speaker 6: If you traded voices between Dick Young's Cap and Mike Kaiser,
Speaker 6: they could almost be the same person in a lot
Speaker 6: of ways too. They remind me a lot.
Speaker 1: Of each other.
Speaker 6: And you know, that's that's the kind of people that
Speaker 6: Ben and Bill are attracted to, no nonsense people. And
Speaker 6: I think when you're not taking jobs on the fly
Speaker 6: and high risk jobs and you know, trying to you know,
Speaker 6: do things that the environment may not dictate there, you're
Speaker 6: never going to be as successful as date been. Because
Speaker 6: they went to the right places, they were very selective,
Speaker 6: they worked hard at it, and they deserve everything that
Speaker 6: they've gotten out of it.
Speaker 2: In Part one, for Ben Crenshaw, finding Bill Corr was
Speaker 2: about fate at sand Hills, they both needed a little faith.
Speaker 3: You had these people who in the you know, in
Speaker 3: the personage of Dick Young's Cap, who wanted to do
Speaker 3: this thing, and and it was you know, you talk
Speaker 3: about a bold leap, putting it out there somewhere where
Speaker 3: we all had just hoped that people would come to
Speaker 3: see it and enjoyment and enjoy it because it was
Speaker 3: something different. But the land was so blessed that we
Speaker 3: just didn't you know, we didn't build so much there,
Speaker 3: We just followed nature.
Speaker 1: There.
Speaker 2: Here's Scottie Sayers on what sand Hills meant for business.
Speaker 5: And after that, the opportunities for our company exploded. I mean,
Speaker 5: the phone was ringing all the time and we had
Speaker 5: more and more great opportunities to build courses. And I
Speaker 5: don't want to pick on any courses to say that
Speaker 5: they were better than others, because there was a period
Speaker 5: where we did Old Sandwich, we did Hidden Creek, we
Speaker 5: did Austin Golf Club, we did East Hampton Golf Club,
Speaker 5: but we did Friar Shad And so there's landmark number
Speaker 5: three and that's another course that immediately brought us a
Speaker 5: lot of attention because of the spectacular nature of it
Speaker 5: and the fact that it sat on Long Island where
Speaker 5: a lot of people could take a look at it.
Speaker 5: The fourth big one for the company is abandon Getting
Speaker 5: a chance to work for Mike Kaiser certainly changed our world,
Speaker 5: and Mike has.
Speaker 1: Been so good to us over the years.
Speaker 5: It's been as you know, Matt, we've had a chance
Speaker 5: to be abandoned trails, we did the Preserve, we did Cabot.
Speaker 5: Mike was a part of Lost Farm down in Tasmania
Speaker 5: Sand Valley. And now we've got the Sheep Ranch coming along,
Speaker 5: So you know, that relationship was kind of the fourth landmark.
Speaker 1: And then I'd say the fifth was Pinehurst.
Speaker 2: Crenshaw again under collection of work.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're not prolific, We'll never be prolific, but
Speaker 3: I don't think that some people have had some of
Speaker 3: the best experiences that we've had working with people and
Speaker 3: in certain environs.
Speaker 2: And finally I asked Bill Core if he thought they
Speaker 2: could have ever achieved such a deep portfolio without sand Hills.
Speaker 1: No. No, I wouldn't say no unequivocally, but I would
Speaker 1: say it would be extraordinarily unlikely that we could have
Speaker 1: the sand Hills. It was such a special site that
Speaker 1: Dick gave us, and he gave us the freedom to
Speaker 1: work with that site. And yeah, Matt, we didn't know.
Speaker 1: We didn't know. How get asked sometimes people say, oh, gee,
Speaker 1: did you know this was going to be a watershed
Speaker 1: event in golf architecture. No, we didn't know that. We
Speaker 1: didn't know. We never talked about it, we never thought
Speaker 1: about it. All we thought about is how can we
Speaker 1: make the most of this site? And this opportunity we've
Speaker 1: been given. But once it came online and it seemed
Speaker 1: to have struck a chord, so to speak, with the
Speaker 1: golfing world. And of course part of that was because
Speaker 1: it was so different than what was prevalent at the time,
Speaker 1: but it was as it just became the cornerstone of
Speaker 1: people being aware that we are one in this business,
Speaker 1: but two that we have an affinity for this type
Speaker 1: of ground.
Speaker 2: Do you guys have a favorite fire pit that you've
Speaker 2: stumbled upon or use on a regular basis?
Speaker 1: Matt, you know, I have a My favorite happens to
Speaker 1: be in our backyard. Uh.
Speaker 2: That was the best kind of fire pit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. Soon I both travel so much, well
Speaker 1: not right now obviously, but generally so much. And yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a fireplace in the in the back and that
Speaker 1: we that that we like to go, uh uh to
Speaker 1: hang out in the in the evenings. But beyond that,
Speaker 1: it's pretty darn hard to beat the one at van,
Speaker 1: you know, the one out there with the crackling fire
Speaker 1: at night and the people around and tell their golf
Speaker 1: stories and the you know, their adventures of the day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ben, I left the second that that fire pit
Speaker 3: there Uh, it's great to see you know the the
Speaker 3: well once again. The pleasure and you've got abandon is
Speaker 3: it's just so ideal for a foursome or two forces
Speaker 3: to get together to play and you know, it's chilling
Speaker 3: at night, and that fireplace really feels good and it
Speaker 3: does make all the golfers conjure up memory of the day.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's uh, very convivial and it's the way
Speaker 3: you in the day and you look forward to the
Speaker 3: next one. But I agree, I agree, that's a good
Speaker 3: one man.
Speaker 1: I would again, Uh and Bellish just briefly on what
Speaker 1: Ben and said. We've been so fortunate to work with
Speaker 1: so many wonderful clients, wonderful people, gifted sites. We've gotten
Speaker 1: far more than our fair share to work with and
Speaker 1: we're just very grateful. But I have to say you,
Speaker 1: we're grateful for the time we've spent with you too.
Speaker 1: I know that, I know.
Speaker 3: I can't believe.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad I got this on record. Matt.
Speaker 3: Matt, Yeah, Bill, Bill is exactly right. We we we've
Speaker 3: enjoyed our time with you. It's great to see you,
Speaker 3: great to talk golf with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you again, gentlemen, I you know this is this
Speaker 2: has been a treat and a pleasure for God's sake,
Speaker 2: Stay safe out there. We need you guys to keep
Speaker 2: doing what you're doing and and look forward to seeing
Speaker 2: you out there in the dirt somewhere someday soon.
Speaker 3: And yeah, likewise, we help everybody safe, including you and
Speaker 3: your family.
Speaker 2: Sure are you looking for good value on great golf apparel?
Speaker 2: As a listener to this point podcast, my friends John
Speaker 2: Ashworth and Jeff Cunningham at link Soul in Oceanside, California
Speaker 2: are offering you a twenty five percent discount on all
Speaker 2: future orders of what I Wear all day, every day,
Speaker 2: on and off the course. Whenever you go to linksoul
Speaker 2: dot com, just use promo code matty G twenty five
Speaker 2: m A t t y G twenty five. Thank you
Speaker 2: for listening to the fire Pit. It's produced by Alex Upeggi.
Speaker 2: It's edited by Rex Lint. The theme song is by
Speaker 2: Joe Horowitz. Please rate and review this podcast on Apple
Speaker 2: Podcasts and we might track you down and send you
Speaker 2: one of our new Imperial rowpads. Got a question, comment,
Speaker 2: or a story for us to track down. You can
Speaker 2: find me on Twitter at Matt Janella or on Instagram
Speaker 2: at matt Underscore Janella, and if you haven't already done so,
Speaker 2: please subscribe to The fire Pit on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to a story like this one.
Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to work