1
00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:15,805
Speaker 1: School of Humans. We are on our way to the

2
00:00:16,005 --> 00:00:19,125
Speaker 1: Little Rock Police substation and we are going to meet

3
00:00:19,165 --> 00:00:22,805
Speaker 1: with Bruce Maxwell, who is now the detective on Ebbie's case.

4
00:00:24,045 --> 00:00:27,125
Speaker 1: I think I don't expect a lot from this. I

5
00:00:27,165 --> 00:00:30,285
Speaker 1: feel like this meaning, first of all, Bruce Maxwell never

6
00:00:30,365 --> 00:00:34,165
Speaker 1: call me back. My honest impression is that after Laurie

7
00:00:34,325 --> 00:00:38,125
Speaker 1: called the chief and made some calls, they all hung

8
00:00:38,165 --> 00:00:39,805
Speaker 1: up the phone and went in there and said, can

9
00:00:39,845 --> 00:00:41,525
Speaker 1: you just do this as a favor so this woman

10
00:00:41,525 --> 00:00:43,525
Speaker 1: doesn't go to the news. That's actually what I feel

11
00:00:43,565 --> 00:00:46,765
Speaker 1: like happen. But we'll see how it goes. I'll keep

12
00:00:46,765 --> 00:00:55,845
Speaker 1: an open mind. How you feeling, Mike, I feel I

13
00:00:55,885 --> 00:01:00,005
Speaker 1: feel not hopeful about them sharing information, but I think

14
00:01:00,125 --> 00:01:04,045
Speaker 1: it will be important to to ask him the questions

15
00:01:04,085 --> 00:01:07,005
Speaker 1: that we're going to ask, just to get the reaction

16
00:01:07,125 --> 00:01:12,205
Speaker 1: from them, and also to press them and make them

17
00:01:12,285 --> 00:01:17,525
Speaker 1: understand that we know more than what they think we know.

18
00:01:23,165 --> 00:02:01,845
Speaker 1: I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone, Mike, our producer,

19
00:02:01,885 --> 00:02:04,565
Speaker 1: Gabby and I are at the l RPD station. We're

20
00:02:04,605 --> 00:02:07,445
Speaker 1: waiting to see Bruce Maxwell, the new detective on Ebbie's case.

21
00:02:10,085 --> 00:02:11,805
Speaker 1: He agreed to meet with us, but he said, we

22
00:02:11,885 --> 00:02:14,525
Speaker 1: can't record him. He's made it clear that he does

23
00:02:14,605 --> 00:02:18,125
Speaker 1: not want to be in this podcast. He told us

24
00:02:18,125 --> 00:02:19,805
Speaker 1: that he took the case over about a month ago,

25
00:02:20,445 --> 00:02:22,845
Speaker 1: but he says he hasn't really done anything yet because

26
00:02:22,845 --> 00:02:27,445
Speaker 1: he's had COVID. During the meeting, Bruce expressed and frustration

27
00:02:27,485 --> 00:02:29,365
Speaker 1: at the massive amount of data that he's had to

28
00:02:29,405 --> 00:02:32,725
Speaker 1: go through. The only thing he would say is that

29
00:02:33,125 --> 00:02:36,805
Speaker 1: anything after the twenty sixth of October is bs. He

30
00:02:36,845 --> 00:02:40,725
Speaker 1: wouldn't really elaborate, but he said, I will tell you that,

31
00:02:40,885 --> 00:02:42,885
Speaker 1: and you figure out why I think that, and we'll

32
00:02:42,965 --> 00:02:48,845
Speaker 1: let you know. Welcome to Arkansas, like I. So it

33
00:02:48,885 --> 00:02:52,845
Speaker 1: was interesting because, as so many meetings with the police

34
00:02:52,885 --> 00:02:54,685
Speaker 1: do here, it starts with them telling you they can't

35
00:02:54,725 --> 00:02:57,085
Speaker 1: tell you anything and then ends with them telling you things.

36
00:02:57,445 --> 00:03:00,925
Speaker 1: So here's what I got. Bruce got the case September

37
00:03:00,965 --> 00:03:05,365
Speaker 1: of this year. Bruce caught COVID. He had nothing to

38
00:03:05,565 --> 00:03:08,485
Speaker 1: say about the case in the beginning, said it would

39
00:03:08,485 --> 00:03:12,805
Speaker 1: be irresponsible to discuss in the beginning right. He did

40
00:03:12,885 --> 00:03:17,525
Speaker 1: specifically say that anything after the twenty six was bullshit.

41
00:03:18,605 --> 00:03:21,805
Speaker 1: I proceeded to ask him about cell phone tower data.

42
00:03:22,205 --> 00:03:26,005
Speaker 1: He said at first that they had it all, but

43
00:03:26,045 --> 00:03:29,165
Speaker 1: then he said, well he really wasn't sure. What I

44
00:03:29,165 --> 00:03:33,845
Speaker 1: thought was interesting, though, is that, like a lot of people,

45
00:03:33,965 --> 00:03:36,965
Speaker 1: he seems to just sort of stick with that line

46
00:03:37,285 --> 00:03:40,805
Speaker 1: of the FBI has already done everything, But then it

47
00:03:40,885 --> 00:03:42,765
Speaker 1: kind of goes to, well, I'm pretty sure they've done everything.

48
00:03:42,765 --> 00:03:45,205
Speaker 1: So it's like, if you actually don't know something's been done,

49
00:03:45,925 --> 00:03:53,645
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you right right, It's just it's this sort

50
00:03:53,685 --> 00:03:56,605
Speaker 1: of just well, it's been done. It's almost more important

51
00:03:56,645 --> 00:03:59,085
Speaker 1: to insist that the box has been ticked, rather than

52
00:03:59,125 --> 00:04:02,285
Speaker 1: like check and see if it's actually been done. It's

53
00:04:02,365 --> 00:04:06,685
Speaker 1: it's weird. He also said he's currently starting from scratch,

54
00:04:06,805 --> 00:04:12,125
Speaker 1: so it is December eighth today. He's not going to

55
00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:14,165
Speaker 1: look at any of the notes. He's going to do

56
00:04:14,205 --> 00:04:18,045
Speaker 1: all his cell tower data, which will take for one person.

57
00:04:19,325 --> 00:04:21,965
Speaker 1: That could take him three to six more months for

58
00:04:22,085 --> 00:04:24,445
Speaker 1: one person to do it individually. If you're not doing

59
00:04:24,485 --> 00:04:26,725
Speaker 1: that every day, because he has other casework and receive

60
00:04:26,805 --> 00:04:29,605
Speaker 1: phone calls about other cases that's going on, you know,

61
00:04:29,645 --> 00:04:31,605
Speaker 1: while while he's in there, So he's not dedicating a

62
00:04:31,645 --> 00:04:33,685
Speaker 1: team to this at all. He's taking all of this

63
00:04:33,845 --> 00:04:36,805
Speaker 1: on him himself. I think we're just gonna have to

64
00:04:36,805 --> 00:04:39,565
Speaker 1: do it ourselves. But it was important to go in there.

65
00:04:39,765 --> 00:04:42,325
Speaker 1: I would say, it's not adversarial like at least he

66
00:04:42,765 --> 00:04:45,805
Speaker 1: you know, he was very friendly. He was friendly and polite.

67
00:04:45,845 --> 00:04:47,565
Speaker 1: And I told you what I said. We're gonna go

68
00:04:47,645 --> 00:04:50,485
Speaker 1: in there and it's gonna be like I guarantee you

69
00:04:50,525 --> 00:04:51,885
Speaker 1: it's gonna be that kind of thing where it's like, well,

70
00:04:51,925 --> 00:04:54,285
Speaker 1: I better do this. Just to you know, yesterday there

71
00:04:54,325 --> 00:04:56,645
Speaker 1: was a conversation that took place between the chief and

72
00:04:56,725 --> 00:04:58,725
Speaker 1: him and he was like, I'm getting calls some Laurie,

73
00:04:59,245 --> 00:05:01,925
Speaker 1: so can you just sit down with them and just

74
00:05:02,205 --> 00:05:05,965
Speaker 1: you know, And that's exactly what happened. So that's my

75
00:05:06,045 --> 00:05:12,165
Speaker 1: interpretation of what just took place. So the whole time

76
00:05:12,165 --> 00:05:15,205
Speaker 1: that I've been investigating Ebbie's death, one issue we have

77
00:05:15,405 --> 00:05:18,165
Speaker 1: is that the police have this timeline information, but we

78
00:05:18,205 --> 00:05:21,805
Speaker 1: don't know what that information is. But what was conveyed

79
00:05:21,845 --> 00:05:24,805
Speaker 1: to us by the LRPD and by former Detective Tommy

80
00:05:24,885 --> 00:05:28,285
Speaker 1: Hudson is that the police do know Ebbie's whereabouts through

81
00:05:28,365 --> 00:05:31,125
Speaker 1: Sunday and they know who she was with. We have

82
00:05:31,405 --> 00:05:35,845
Speaker 1: found those people that were with her after the Friday

83
00:05:35,925 --> 00:05:37,725
Speaker 1: night Insiday and I can track her all the way

84
00:05:37,765 --> 00:05:40,165
Speaker 1: to early Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon when she talked

85
00:05:40,165 --> 00:05:42,725
Speaker 1: to Trevor, which she was the last person she talked to.

86
00:05:43,485 --> 00:05:45,885
Speaker 1: And you know these guys that I talked to over night,

87
00:05:46,005 --> 00:05:50,405
Speaker 1: I mean, they are some shady guys. According to Laurie

88
00:05:50,405 --> 00:05:53,885
Speaker 1: and Ebbie's stepdad Michael, the police have told them multiple

89
00:05:53,925 --> 00:05:56,605
Speaker 1: times that they knew where Ebbie was on Saturday night.

90
00:05:57,805 --> 00:06:00,765
Speaker 1: They've said she was quote safe, unharmed, and with friends.

91
00:06:01,605 --> 00:06:05,645
Speaker 1: And Tommy kept saying she never met a stranger. She

92
00:06:05,645 --> 00:06:08,125
Speaker 1: didn't meet a stranger. If she met one person for

93
00:06:08,205 --> 00:06:10,525
Speaker 1: five minutes, she was meeting that person again, you know,

94
00:06:10,645 --> 00:06:14,445
Speaker 1: several hours later and again especially if they're gonna, you know,

95
00:06:14,765 --> 00:06:17,685
Speaker 1: do drugs or something like that. I mean, she was

96
00:06:17,805 --> 00:06:21,485
Speaker 1: very transient. She didn't know a stranger. And I'm not

97
00:06:21,525 --> 00:06:24,685
Speaker 1: trying to say she was making poor decisions because she's

98
00:06:24,725 --> 00:06:27,405
Speaker 1: a teenage girl. I mean a teenage boys make poor

99
00:06:27,445 --> 00:06:30,485
Speaker 1: decisions sometimes. But you know, I don't think she was

100
00:06:30,525 --> 00:06:34,845
Speaker 1: ever apprehensive who she met or anything like that. And

101
00:06:34,925 --> 00:06:37,085
Speaker 1: you know, didn't other's people out there that could hurt

102
00:06:37,125 --> 00:06:40,405
Speaker 1: you or do bad things. And you know, I'm not

103
00:06:40,445 --> 00:06:42,325
Speaker 1: saying these are the guys that did it. But it's

104
00:06:42,365 --> 00:06:45,285
Speaker 1: just these guys have been and some of the guys

105
00:06:45,325 --> 00:06:48,965
Speaker 1: are still on my radar as a today. This whole time,

106
00:06:49,405 --> 00:06:52,085
Speaker 1: we've had no idea what was happening with Ebbie from

107
00:06:52,085 --> 00:06:54,925
Speaker 1: the Saturday when she was with her grandparents to Sunday

108
00:06:54,965 --> 00:06:57,925
Speaker 1: when she had that phone call with Trevor. But now

109
00:06:57,965 --> 00:07:00,525
Speaker 1: we know that she was in contact with at least

110
00:07:00,605 --> 00:07:09,365
Speaker 1: one more person. His name is Eric. Hello, Oh hey, Eric,

111
00:07:09,405 --> 00:07:13,045
Speaker 1: thanks for calling back. Eric went to Central High School.

112
00:07:13,485 --> 00:07:16,085
Speaker 1: He was on the football team, and everyone I talked

113
00:07:16,085 --> 00:07:18,605
Speaker 1: to says that Eric is a nice guy. He was

114
00:07:18,645 --> 00:07:22,325
Speaker 1: someone who adored Ebbi. Laurie said that she believed Eric

115
00:07:22,405 --> 00:07:24,845
Speaker 1: was totally in love with her daughter and devoted to her.

116
00:07:25,485 --> 00:07:27,085
Speaker 1: I don't know if I ever told her I loved her,

117
00:07:27,245 --> 00:07:28,805
Speaker 1: got the chance to tell her, you know, but like

118
00:07:28,885 --> 00:07:30,805
Speaker 1: I had loved her. We knew we liked each other,

119
00:07:30,845 --> 00:07:32,725
Speaker 1: and that's why we liked told each other like I'm

120
00:07:32,725 --> 00:07:34,645
Speaker 1: always be there for you, Like we had being through

121
00:07:35,525 --> 00:07:38,165
Speaker 1: a lot already together, so we would just you know,

122
00:07:38,205 --> 00:07:39,965
Speaker 1: I had to understand it, and like we give out

123
00:07:39,965 --> 00:07:42,205
Speaker 1: at each other, but you know, we still cared about

124
00:07:42,205 --> 00:07:44,565
Speaker 1: each other. We still wanted each other to be okay.

125
00:07:46,085 --> 00:07:49,005
Speaker 1: Eric and Ebbie met shortly after Ebbie started at Central

126
00:07:49,085 --> 00:07:52,645
Speaker 1: High School in August twenty fifteen. They had a pre

127
00:07:52,725 --> 00:07:55,925
Speaker 1: calculus class together. Eric said he was good at math

128
00:07:56,005 --> 00:07:59,365
Speaker 1: and he would help Ebby with her homework. At first,

129
00:07:59,365 --> 00:08:02,005
Speaker 1: he says, they started hanging out through friends in a

130
00:08:02,005 --> 00:08:05,045
Speaker 1: group that included his sister, a girl named Carly, and

131
00:08:05,205 --> 00:08:08,805
Speaker 1: another their girl named Mary. Eric had just come out

132
00:08:08,805 --> 00:08:11,605
Speaker 1: of a long relationship, and at one point Ebbie had

133
00:08:11,605 --> 00:08:15,085
Speaker 1: been dating his cousin. But soon Ebbie and Eric started

134
00:08:15,085 --> 00:08:18,565
Speaker 1: hanging out one on one. Ebby had texting me about

135
00:08:18,805 --> 00:08:21,005
Speaker 1: something I can't remember, but then she ended up coming

136
00:08:21,045 --> 00:08:23,085
Speaker 1: over that we ended up going and smoking. I just

137
00:08:23,125 --> 00:08:25,205
Speaker 1: remember that being like one of the firsure real times

138
00:08:25,285 --> 00:08:28,925
Speaker 1: we hung out without, you know, everybody, because I wasn't

139
00:08:28,965 --> 00:08:31,245
Speaker 1: even thinking about relationships, and at that time that was

140
00:08:31,285 --> 00:08:34,485
Speaker 1: like right in the middle of football season, so it

141
00:08:34,645 --> 00:08:38,165
Speaker 1: actually didn't kind of do come naturally. And then you

142
00:08:38,205 --> 00:08:39,925
Speaker 1: guys were I mean, would you were you just kind

143
00:08:39,925 --> 00:08:42,605
Speaker 1: of hanging out or were your boyfriend girlfriend or so

144
00:08:42,965 --> 00:08:46,605
Speaker 1: we like when we first started talking, we you know,

145
00:08:46,685 --> 00:08:49,485
Speaker 1: we're trying to make it that but we were both

146
00:08:49,645 --> 00:08:51,925
Speaker 1: and we both like we're stilled talking to other people.

147
00:08:52,525 --> 00:08:55,125
Speaker 1: But what happened was the real reason why we never

148
00:08:55,125 --> 00:08:58,045
Speaker 1: really started dating like Ebbie. Like I said, Ebbie was

149
00:08:58,125 --> 00:09:00,525
Speaker 1: you know, free spirits, so she would just do with anything,

150
00:09:00,645 --> 00:09:10,165
Speaker 1: go hang out, you know, with anybody. When I was

151
00:09:10,165 --> 00:09:13,845
Speaker 1: talking Eric, he also told me about Chalamont Park. This

152
00:09:13,885 --> 00:09:16,565
Speaker 1: whole time, no one has been able to tell me

153
00:09:16,925 --> 00:09:20,725
Speaker 1: why Ebbie was at that park specifically. Eric said that

154
00:09:20,765 --> 00:09:23,805
Speaker 1: Ebbie loved hanging out in Chelmont Park. In fact, he

155
00:09:23,925 --> 00:09:27,965
Speaker 1: said she considered it her happy place. He has memories

156
00:09:27,965 --> 00:09:30,765
Speaker 1: of going there with her, pushing her on the carousel

157
00:09:31,165 --> 00:09:34,325
Speaker 1: and hanging out in the little playground area. Eric said

158
00:09:34,365 --> 00:09:36,805
Speaker 1: that high school kids would sometimes hang out in that park.

159
00:09:37,325 --> 00:09:39,525
Speaker 1: They would kick back, have a few drinks, or maybe

160
00:09:39,525 --> 00:09:42,765
Speaker 1: do drugs or hook up. It was considered a safe

161
00:09:42,765 --> 00:09:46,405
Speaker 1: place somewhere where you could have some privacy. You said

162
00:09:46,405 --> 00:09:48,245
Speaker 1: that when y'all were hanging out, I mean people would

163
00:09:48,285 --> 00:09:50,445
Speaker 1: like hang out and drink and things like that, but

164
00:09:50,485 --> 00:09:52,845
Speaker 1: you never saw anyone like in the man hole doing

165
00:09:52,845 --> 00:09:57,325
Speaker 1: stuff like there's not even something that it was disgusting.

166
00:09:57,485 --> 00:09:59,405
Speaker 1: Is not something that you know, people want to do.

167
00:10:00,645 --> 00:10:03,165
Speaker 1: Eric also said that he knew Ebbie did hang out

168
00:10:03,165 --> 00:10:06,565
Speaker 1: there with other people, people he didn't no, and people

169
00:10:06,605 --> 00:10:09,325
Speaker 1: he says that sometimes did drugs with her. You know,

170
00:10:09,365 --> 00:10:10,885
Speaker 1: I wish I would have talked to her more about

171
00:10:10,965 --> 00:10:13,165
Speaker 1: in essence, because then I maybe would know, you know,

172
00:10:13,325 --> 00:10:16,845
Speaker 1: some names to give, but I, like, I wouldn't want

173
00:10:16,885 --> 00:10:19,885
Speaker 1: to know who she was, you know who else. But

174
00:10:20,005 --> 00:10:22,885
Speaker 1: we were telling every like, you can't keep hanging out with,

175
00:10:23,485 --> 00:10:26,485
Speaker 1: you know, random people. She was just ways she wasn't

176
00:10:27,005 --> 00:10:30,405
Speaker 1: as cautious that she should have been. But you shouldn't

177
00:10:30,405 --> 00:10:33,165
Speaker 1: even live like cautiously, so I can't even necessarily really

178
00:10:33,205 --> 00:10:36,565
Speaker 1: blame her. And during this time, Eric saw Abby doing

179
00:10:36,565 --> 00:10:40,445
Speaker 1: increasingly risky behavior, like one time he said she wanted

180
00:10:40,485 --> 00:10:42,885
Speaker 1: to get a tattoo, but she wasn't going to a

181
00:10:42,885 --> 00:10:45,005
Speaker 1: tattoo shop. And this was one of the only time

182
00:10:45,085 --> 00:10:47,405
Speaker 1: she ever asked me to go somewhere, like actually go

183
00:10:47,565 --> 00:10:50,325
Speaker 1: somewhere with her, like usually it's just to hang out. Oh,

184
00:10:50,365 --> 00:10:52,485
Speaker 1: let's find something to do. I think it was because

185
00:10:52,565 --> 00:10:54,445
Speaker 1: like the way to little set of lay Duty, he

186
00:10:54,525 --> 00:10:56,725
Speaker 1: was a dude. He was chilling on the couch when

187
00:10:56,725 --> 00:10:58,125
Speaker 1: we walked in this house, and then there was an

188
00:10:58,045 --> 00:10:59,965
Speaker 1: a k pourt. He said it on the table, and

189
00:11:00,045 --> 00:11:01,725
Speaker 1: that's the whole time. I told her, I like, you

190
00:11:01,765 --> 00:11:03,725
Speaker 1: don't need to be in places like that. And then

191
00:11:03,765 --> 00:11:05,245
Speaker 1: we went to the back room or whatever it is

192
00:11:05,725 --> 00:11:07,925
Speaker 1: that looked like he probably was on crack ten years

193
00:11:07,925 --> 00:11:12,485
Speaker 1: ago with a Jackie tattooed and they were doing tattoos.

194
00:11:15,645 --> 00:11:18,085
Speaker 1: Eric was on the football team, so he was friends

195
00:11:18,125 --> 00:11:21,605
Speaker 1: with c and with l. They weren't people who, to

196
00:11:21,685 --> 00:11:24,005
Speaker 1: his knowledge, were caught up in violence or in drugs.

197
00:11:25,005 --> 00:11:28,045
Speaker 1: He did say they might smoke some pot or drink. Basically,

198
00:11:28,125 --> 00:11:30,565
Speaker 1: he described them as pretty much normal high school kids.

199
00:11:31,925 --> 00:11:35,205
Speaker 1: The week before the party, Eric and Ebbie weren't really talking.

200
00:11:36,165 --> 00:11:38,285
Speaker 1: Eric said that one of their friends lied to Ebby

201
00:11:38,405 --> 00:11:41,525
Speaker 1: about Eric cooking up with someone else, so the two

202
00:11:41,565 --> 00:11:43,605
Speaker 1: of them seemed to try to get back at each other.

203
00:11:44,885 --> 00:11:47,525
Speaker 1: Eric thinks that that's part of the reason why Ebbie

204
00:11:47,565 --> 00:11:51,565
Speaker 1: went to hang out with CNL that night. But after

205
00:11:51,605 --> 00:11:55,605
Speaker 1: the party, Eric got a DM from Ebbie. She DMI

206
00:11:55,805 --> 00:11:58,885
Speaker 1: saying that something happened to whatever, and I'm pretty sure

207
00:11:58,885 --> 00:12:00,925
Speaker 1: in the DMOR she said, you know, she was raped

208
00:12:00,925 --> 00:12:02,925
Speaker 1: to say should be at and I think I was

209
00:12:02,965 --> 00:12:04,765
Speaker 1: asking her questions, but she didn't really want to talk

210
00:12:04,805 --> 00:12:06,725
Speaker 1: about it. I will now say I just come over.

211
00:12:07,885 --> 00:12:11,285
Speaker 1: She was stressed out, she was being a destroyer. Eric

212
00:12:11,365 --> 00:12:14,765
Speaker 1: comforted her, but at this point he didn't know where

213
00:12:14,805 --> 00:12:18,685
Speaker 1: she had been or who she'd been with. She slept

214
00:12:18,685 --> 00:12:21,725
Speaker 1: in Eric's sister's bed. They had breakfast together in the morning,

215
00:12:22,685 --> 00:12:26,005
Speaker 1: and then he says that he believed she was determined

216
00:12:26,045 --> 00:12:28,565
Speaker 1: to talk to her family and possibly go to the

217
00:12:28,565 --> 00:12:32,805
Speaker 1: police about the alleged sexual assault. He says he can't

218
00:12:32,845 --> 00:12:35,925
Speaker 1: remember if they sent any more texts on Saturday, but

219
00:12:36,005 --> 00:12:39,245
Speaker 1: according to what we have from police, Ebbie sent Eric

220
00:12:39,285 --> 00:12:42,245
Speaker 1: an Instagram message on Saturday night at around six forty

221
00:12:42,245 --> 00:12:46,165
Speaker 1: five pm, and in that message, she said she was

222
00:12:46,205 --> 00:12:50,205
Speaker 1: still at Moppy's house. Moppy was Ebbie's nickname for her grandmother,

223
00:12:51,165 --> 00:12:54,125
Speaker 1: and Detective Bruce Maxwell said in an email to Laurie

224
00:12:54,525 --> 00:12:57,725
Speaker 1: that Ebbie had had no contact with anyone from Saturday

225
00:12:57,725 --> 00:13:00,205
Speaker 1: evening when she sent the DMS to Eric, until Sunday

226
00:13:00,245 --> 00:13:04,085
Speaker 1: when she called Trevor. But Eric tells us that is

227
00:13:04,165 --> 00:13:16,005
Speaker 1: not true. We'll be right back. On Sunday, Eric got

228
00:13:16,085 --> 00:13:20,885
Speaker 1: a call from Ebbie's brother, Trevor. Trevor told him that

229
00:13:20,965 --> 00:13:23,405
Speaker 1: they couldn't find Ebby, and he asked if he'd seen her.

230
00:13:23,805 --> 00:13:27,365
Speaker 1: I lived in a high rise condo, came in, I

231
00:13:27,365 --> 00:13:29,725
Speaker 1: would rather call me. I was in the lobby when

232
00:13:29,725 --> 00:13:31,205
Speaker 1: he called me, like our kind of crows, Like I

233
00:13:31,325 --> 00:13:34,885
Speaker 1: never moved until until I actually talked to her. This

234
00:13:34,965 --> 00:13:39,365
Speaker 1: means that Eric also talked to Ebby on Sunday. He

235
00:13:39,445 --> 00:13:41,525
Speaker 1: can't remember if she called him back or if he

236
00:13:41,605 --> 00:13:44,485
Speaker 1: finally got through to her, but he does remember what

237
00:13:44,605 --> 00:13:48,085
Speaker 1: happened after she picked up. It's something that has haunted

238
00:13:48,165 --> 00:13:53,605
Speaker 1: him for years. Do you remember the very last time

239
00:13:53,645 --> 00:13:59,245
Speaker 1: you talked to her on Sunday? It was either right

240
00:13:59,325 --> 00:14:02,805
Speaker 1: before I'm almost positives, right before she talked to her brother,

241
00:14:04,445 --> 00:14:06,605
Speaker 1: And what did she say? What was she like? Then?

242
00:14:07,885 --> 00:14:10,045
Speaker 1: She wasn't really good at as I was trying to

243
00:14:10,085 --> 00:14:12,205
Speaker 1: see where she was, and she didn't tell me anything

244
00:14:12,325 --> 00:14:15,485
Speaker 1: that I could actually help. She said, I'm sorry. A

245
00:14:15,565 --> 00:14:18,285
Speaker 1: couple of times. It was weird, like I never heard

246
00:14:18,285 --> 00:14:20,165
Speaker 1: a voice sound like that, Like I said, like, you know,

247
00:14:20,245 --> 00:14:23,685
Speaker 1: she would go crazy places like I've never seen or scared,

248
00:14:23,805 --> 00:14:26,165
Speaker 1: you know, like I've even heard of a cry, but

249
00:14:26,285 --> 00:14:31,205
Speaker 1: like that was a different, like just was scared. Ebbie

250
00:14:31,245 --> 00:14:34,405
Speaker 1: sounded totally out of it, like she had been roofied.

251
00:14:35,685 --> 00:14:38,165
Speaker 1: Eric said that in the past he had seen Ebbie

252
00:14:38,205 --> 00:14:41,205
Speaker 1: smoke pot or maybe do some party drugs sometimes like

253
00:14:41,285 --> 00:14:45,245
Speaker 1: molly or coke, but never meth or heroine. He said

254
00:14:45,285 --> 00:14:47,285
Speaker 1: that he had no idea what would make her sound

255
00:14:47,325 --> 00:14:50,765
Speaker 1: like this. The way she sounded that she sounded exhausted,

256
00:14:51,325 --> 00:14:53,965
Speaker 1: She sounded like out of it. She sounded like in

257
00:14:54,085 --> 00:14:56,965
Speaker 1: cohering like she didn't really like she might not have

258
00:14:57,045 --> 00:14:59,245
Speaker 1: like she knew where she was, but she couldn't. Either

259
00:14:59,285 --> 00:15:02,485
Speaker 1: she knew where she was and she couldn't like explain it,

260
00:15:02,645 --> 00:15:04,805
Speaker 1: or she just like was so out of it that

261
00:15:04,845 --> 00:15:06,765
Speaker 1: she didn't eve she might not even know where she

262
00:15:06,925 --> 00:15:09,245
Speaker 1: was at that point, like she was just like that

263
00:15:09,405 --> 00:15:14,165
Speaker 1: far gone. Eric was focused, he says, on putting Ebby

264
00:15:14,245 --> 00:15:18,045
Speaker 1: in touch with her brother. I knew something was wrong,

265
00:15:18,085 --> 00:15:19,885
Speaker 1: but I thought he was gonna be Aby's gonna have

266
00:15:19,965 --> 00:15:30,805
Speaker 1: to go to rehab. Once Ebby was in touch with Trevor,

267
00:15:31,445 --> 00:15:34,165
Speaker 1: Eric said he kind of relaxed at this point. He

268
00:15:34,205 --> 00:15:37,045
Speaker 1: thought Ebby would get the help she needed. She's at

269
00:15:37,045 --> 00:15:39,525
Speaker 1: a load right now. She needs, you know, actually helps.

270
00:15:39,565 --> 00:15:41,445
Speaker 1: She needs somebody that's gonna be able to take her

271
00:15:41,565 --> 00:15:44,045
Speaker 1: to somewhere where she can, you know, get the help

272
00:15:44,125 --> 00:15:46,685
Speaker 1: she you know, it's the same like that's happened before,

273
00:15:46,845 --> 00:15:50,005
Speaker 1: Like Eby has somebody stressed out and going to get

274
00:15:50,005 --> 00:15:51,805
Speaker 1: in contact with her Emby because if you know, her

275
00:15:51,845 --> 00:15:55,405
Speaker 1: faults don't work. So Eric just mentioned that her phones

276
00:15:55,485 --> 00:16:01,165
Speaker 1: don't work sometimes. That's phones plural. Laurie also forwarded me

277
00:16:01,205 --> 00:16:03,085
Speaker 1: a photo of some stuff from the front seat of

278
00:16:03,085 --> 00:16:07,165
Speaker 1: Ebbie's car. It's blurry, but it looks like a receipt

279
00:16:07,205 --> 00:16:11,085
Speaker 1: for a Straight Talk phone number. All of the records

280
00:16:11,085 --> 00:16:13,805
Speaker 1: we have are from Ebbie's primary phone, the one her

281
00:16:13,805 --> 00:16:17,605
Speaker 1: parents paid for. Could Ebbie have had a second phone

282
00:16:18,165 --> 00:16:24,125
Speaker 1: and was it ever found? I talk a lot about victimology,

283
00:16:24,765 --> 00:16:28,685
Speaker 1: trying to get inside a victim's head. On Saturday, October

284
00:16:28,805 --> 00:16:32,205
Speaker 1: twenty fourth, the day after the party, Ebbie sent that

285
00:16:32,325 --> 00:16:34,685
Speaker 1: text to her friend Gage to say that she had

286
00:16:34,685 --> 00:16:38,045
Speaker 1: been recorded without her consent. She ended that text with

287
00:16:38,125 --> 00:16:42,045
Speaker 1: the line I'm going to go kill myself. So we

288
00:16:42,205 --> 00:16:45,405
Speaker 1: do have to consider the possibility that she may have

289
00:16:45,525 --> 00:16:50,005
Speaker 1: been in a suicidal state of mind. According to Eric,

290
00:16:50,365 --> 00:16:53,405
Speaker 1: Ebbie was upset about what had been happening in her life,

291
00:16:53,445 --> 00:16:56,205
Speaker 1: all the chaos and about what happened to her on

292
00:16:56,245 --> 00:16:59,605
Speaker 1: Friday night, You don't think she would have had suicidal

293
00:16:59,645 --> 00:17:04,165
Speaker 1: thoughts or anything like that. I mean, honestly, like, I'm

294
00:17:04,245 --> 00:17:06,765
Speaker 1: not gonna you know, it passed her just because of

295
00:17:06,885 --> 00:17:08,965
Speaker 1: the way life was going, Like me and her weren't

296
00:17:08,965 --> 00:17:11,965
Speaker 1: the best, her mom and her mom and stepdad. You know,

297
00:17:12,365 --> 00:17:14,805
Speaker 1: she felt like they didn't want hurt everything that was

298
00:17:14,845 --> 00:17:18,205
Speaker 1: going on at school, and then after the video situation

299
00:17:18,285 --> 00:17:21,605
Speaker 1: and her probably feeling like the police weren't gonna do

300
00:17:21,605 --> 00:17:23,605
Speaker 1: nothing because I mean, I'm not saying and she wouldn't

301
00:17:23,645 --> 00:17:26,285
Speaker 1: against suicide. Like that's enough to make anybody, you know,

302
00:17:26,805 --> 00:17:29,405
Speaker 1: had thoughts. But I don't think that's the type of

303
00:17:29,445 --> 00:17:31,805
Speaker 1: person Ebbie was. Like, she was a fighter for sure,

304
00:17:31,965 --> 00:17:34,605
Speaker 1: Like and that's the whole reason she didn't go back home,

305
00:17:34,645 --> 00:17:36,605
Speaker 1: because she felt like she could do it on her own.

306
00:17:36,645 --> 00:17:39,605
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, even if she was, let's say, I

307
00:17:39,645 --> 00:17:41,685
Speaker 1: don't believe she did have suicide thoughts of that day.

308
00:17:41,725 --> 00:17:44,045
Speaker 1: But even if she did, how does that explain her

309
00:17:44,165 --> 00:17:47,605
Speaker 1: being in a pipe? It doesn't. That's that's where the

310
00:17:47,725 --> 00:17:50,925
Speaker 1: disconnected is. That's why I'm almost positive that it wasn't

311
00:17:50,965 --> 00:17:55,525
Speaker 1: just hurt by herself. Looking at Ebbie's movements on Saturday

312
00:17:55,525 --> 00:18:00,205
Speaker 1: and into Sunday, nothing there indicates a person who's contemplating suicide.

313
00:18:01,365 --> 00:18:04,805
Speaker 1: Later that Saturday afternoon, after Ebbie had sent that text

314
00:18:04,805 --> 00:18:08,925
Speaker 1: to Gauge, Ebby's despair had turned to anger. She googled

315
00:18:08,965 --> 00:18:12,285
Speaker 1: sexual assault Anne how to file a police report. Her

316
00:18:12,365 --> 00:18:15,485
Speaker 1: phone records show that she dialed the Little Rock Police Department,

317
00:18:16,125 --> 00:18:18,485
Speaker 1: and her close friends and family say they didn't see

318
00:18:18,525 --> 00:18:22,285
Speaker 1: anything off about her behavior. Ebbie went to Danielle's house

319
00:18:22,325 --> 00:18:25,005
Speaker 1: at some point, and Danielle has said that she didn't

320
00:18:25,005 --> 00:18:27,845
Speaker 1: seem to be in distress, and we also know her

321
00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:30,685
Speaker 1: grandparents didn't see anything out of the ordinary with her behavior,

322
00:18:31,485 --> 00:18:35,645
Speaker 1: and even into Sunday when she talked to Trevor, she

323
00:18:35,805 --> 00:18:39,445
Speaker 1: was not expressing any kind of suicidal thoughts. She was

324
00:18:39,525 --> 00:18:48,805
Speaker 1: asking for help. We'll be right back. Since we started

325
00:18:48,805 --> 00:18:52,205
Speaker 1: our investigation, I haven't had any more direct contact with

326
00:18:52,245 --> 00:18:55,845
Speaker 1: the detective Bruce Maxwell. That meeting we had was in

327
00:18:55,885 --> 00:18:59,885
Speaker 1: December twenty twenty one. This episode comes out April twenty

328
00:18:59,925 --> 00:19:03,085
Speaker 1: twenty two, and Laurie just called me with updates from

329
00:19:03,085 --> 00:19:06,485
Speaker 1: Bruce's investigation. And when Laurie told me about what's been

330
00:19:06,485 --> 00:19:10,325
Speaker 1: going on. I was shocked. I called up Mike and

331
00:19:10,365 --> 00:19:14,165
Speaker 1: Gabby to give them the latest updates. So, Katherine, can

332
00:19:14,165 --> 00:19:15,885
Speaker 1: you give us some updates about like what's going on

333
00:19:15,885 --> 00:19:19,205
Speaker 1: with me? Yeah? Well, you remember when we saw Bruce

334
00:19:19,485 --> 00:19:22,245
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago and he said that he hadn't

335
00:19:22,285 --> 00:19:25,725
Speaker 1: even really started looking at Ebbie's case, he'd only had

336
00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:28,725
Speaker 1: it for a few weeks. Well, since then, there's been

337
00:19:28,765 --> 00:19:31,525
Speaker 1: a lot of back and forth between Bruce and Laurie.

338
00:19:31,645 --> 00:19:36,565
Speaker 1: Laurie says Bruce told her that the timeline was completely wrong,

339
00:19:37,165 --> 00:19:39,285
Speaker 1: that all this time, for six and a half years,

340
00:19:39,565 --> 00:19:42,605
Speaker 1: the police thought they knew where Ebbie was on Saturday night.

341
00:19:43,005 --> 00:19:45,525
Speaker 1: And you remember, they've been telling us this whole time

342
00:19:45,885 --> 00:19:48,365
Speaker 1: that she was safe and with friends, and they had

343
00:19:48,405 --> 00:19:50,445
Speaker 1: that time accounted for, and that the only time they

344
00:19:50,485 --> 00:19:52,885
Speaker 1: didn't know where she was was on Sunday, shortly around

345
00:19:52,885 --> 00:19:55,565
Speaker 1: the time before she went missing. But now Bruce is

346
00:19:55,605 --> 00:19:59,565
Speaker 1: saying that he's seen some pictures on Ebbie's phone that

347
00:19:59,605 --> 00:20:02,285
Speaker 1: he says, I've never been looked at. He says the

348
00:20:02,325 --> 00:20:05,005
Speaker 1: timeline is off by a whole day, that in fact,

349
00:20:05,005 --> 00:20:08,045
Speaker 1: police don't know where she was on Saturday night, and

350
00:20:08,405 --> 00:20:11,365
Speaker 1: she sent an Instagram message from her grandparents. She was

351
00:20:11,445 --> 00:20:14,045
Speaker 1: dming on Saturday afternoon, and after that they have no

352
00:20:14,125 --> 00:20:16,485
Speaker 1: idea where she was until the phone call with Trevor.

353
00:20:17,005 --> 00:20:21,365
Speaker 1: That's huge, But then it got a little weird because

354
00:20:21,445 --> 00:20:24,845
Speaker 1: at that point I really expected Bruce to say, Okay,

355
00:20:24,885 --> 00:20:26,565
Speaker 1: we have the timeline wrong. We're now going to go

356
00:20:26,645 --> 00:20:30,085
Speaker 1: reinterview everyone. We're going to start from scratch. But instead

357
00:20:30,205 --> 00:20:33,085
Speaker 1: what happened was shortly after that, he told Laurie that

358
00:20:33,125 --> 00:20:37,605
Speaker 1: the only conclusion he could come to was that Ebbie

359
00:20:37,805 --> 00:20:41,165
Speaker 1: had crawled down in the dream pipe herself, either because

360
00:20:41,205 --> 00:20:45,245
Speaker 1: she was having some sort of suicidal thoughts or because

361
00:20:45,325 --> 00:20:48,205
Speaker 1: she just crawled down there and got stuck, and that

362
00:20:48,365 --> 00:20:52,605
Speaker 1: is his conclusion. He said also that there is no

363
00:20:52,685 --> 00:20:55,285
Speaker 1: more work to be done on her case file, but

364
00:20:55,525 --> 00:20:59,445
Speaker 1: he won't close the case officially. Well, when you close

365
00:20:59,525 --> 00:21:02,205
Speaker 1: the case, then that opened the door to look at

366
00:21:02,205 --> 00:21:04,965
Speaker 1: all of this information. It's the worst possible outcome for

367
00:21:04,965 --> 00:21:08,285
Speaker 1: the family because what it means is they won't officially

368
00:21:08,325 --> 00:21:11,885
Speaker 1: close it. They're keeping it officially an open and active investigation.

369
00:21:12,245 --> 00:21:14,725
Speaker 1: I'm using air quotes now, which means that no one

370
00:21:14,805 --> 00:21:17,365
Speaker 1: can look at it. It's all confidential, but it's just

371
00:21:17,405 --> 00:21:19,925
Speaker 1: sitting there collecting dust. So that's a terrible outcome for

372
00:21:19,965 --> 00:21:25,845
Speaker 1: our family. Laurie tells me she's devastated. She feels like

373
00:21:25,925 --> 00:21:29,405
Speaker 1: six and a half years later, she's back at square one.

374
00:21:30,045 --> 00:21:32,885
Speaker 1: How can they be closing the case file, especially if

375
00:21:32,885 --> 00:21:34,925
Speaker 1: they have so much data they need to review and

376
00:21:35,045 --> 00:21:39,245
Speaker 1: to redo the entire timeline. I've said before in past

377
00:21:39,285 --> 00:21:41,845
Speaker 1: seasons that while it can be frustrating to have zero

378
00:21:41,925 --> 00:21:44,885
Speaker 1: access to the case files, the positive side of that

379
00:21:45,045 --> 00:21:47,125
Speaker 1: is the fact that we know that everything we do

380
00:21:47,205 --> 00:21:51,245
Speaker 1: have we've verified ourselves. But I keep feeling like with

381
00:21:51,325 --> 00:21:55,045
Speaker 1: Ebbie's case, we're missing something. It feels like the scene

382
00:21:55,085 --> 00:21:57,525
Speaker 1: at the end of the movie The Usual Suspects, after

383
00:21:57,565 --> 00:21:59,645
Speaker 1: the detective has been listening to Kevin space he taught

384
00:21:59,685 --> 00:22:03,085
Speaker 1: for hours. He steps back from that courtboard and realizes

385
00:22:03,165 --> 00:22:06,645
Speaker 1: he was being misled from the very beginning. It feels

386
00:22:06,685 --> 00:22:09,605
Speaker 1: like the pieces are all here, but we just can't

387
00:22:09,685 --> 00:22:13,245
Speaker 1: quite put them together in the right order yet. So

388
00:22:13,285 --> 00:22:16,005
Speaker 1: I go back again to the very beginning of the case.

389
00:22:17,205 --> 00:22:20,685
Speaker 1: What did we know then? We had heard the media

390
00:22:20,765 --> 00:22:23,525
Speaker 1: narrative about Friday Night, which we now know was wrong

391
00:22:24,405 --> 00:22:26,445
Speaker 1: because there weren't four guys who would have had a

392
00:22:26,485 --> 00:22:29,605
Speaker 1: motive to do Ebby harm. There was one person who

393
00:22:29,645 --> 00:22:33,925
Speaker 1: Ebby was having a dispute with. What about the crime scene.

394
00:22:35,125 --> 00:22:38,125
Speaker 1: We've always heard that the security guard was the first

395
00:22:38,165 --> 00:22:40,885
Speaker 1: person who reported Ebbie's card to the police, and that

396
00:22:40,965 --> 00:22:44,965
Speaker 1: he called the police on multiple days, but there seems

397
00:22:44,965 --> 00:22:49,405
Speaker 1: to be some confusion about this. The neighbor Lee said

398
00:22:49,485 --> 00:22:52,245
Speaker 1: she told the security guard about the car after noticing

399
00:22:52,285 --> 00:22:54,165
Speaker 1: it in the parking lot for several days in a row.

400
00:22:55,365 --> 00:22:58,725
Speaker 1: He told her money and others that he had called

401
00:22:58,725 --> 00:23:02,925
Speaker 1: the police several times about that car. I've done several

402
00:23:03,005 --> 00:23:06,965
Speaker 1: freedom of information requests with a Little Rock police. Not surprisingly,

403
00:23:07,285 --> 00:23:09,725
Speaker 1: they tell me the case is an open investigation and

404
00:23:09,765 --> 00:23:13,285
Speaker 1: that they can't release any information. Then I get an

405
00:23:13,325 --> 00:23:17,045
Speaker 1: email from the LRPD, and when I open it, I

406
00:23:17,085 --> 00:23:21,645
Speaker 1: am stunned. They were able to release the original incident

407
00:23:21,685 --> 00:23:25,405
Speaker 1: report that relates to Ebby's abandoned car. This was before

408
00:23:25,405 --> 00:23:30,205
Speaker 1: it became an official missing person's case. The incident report

409
00:23:30,325 --> 00:23:34,445
Speaker 1: is from Friday, October thirtieth, five days after Ebbie went missing.

410
00:23:35,405 --> 00:23:39,205
Speaker 1: The person who's listing as reported Ebby's abandoned car is Lee.

411
00:23:39,245 --> 00:23:44,565
Speaker 1: The neighbor, not the security guard. Why would he tell

412
00:23:44,645 --> 00:23:47,525
Speaker 1: people that he reported the car missing if he didn't.

413
00:23:48,165 --> 00:23:52,285
Speaker 1: Why isn't he all over this incident report. Part of

414
00:23:52,285 --> 00:23:55,645
Speaker 1: our investigation is figuring out Ebbie's pattern of life to

415
00:23:55,685 --> 00:23:57,845
Speaker 1: the best of our ability, trying to figure out where

416
00:23:57,885 --> 00:24:00,805
Speaker 1: she was every hour over the weekend until Sunday when

417
00:24:00,805 --> 00:24:03,325
Speaker 1: she dropped off the radar. But we also need to

418
00:24:03,365 --> 00:24:06,365
Speaker 1: look at the people who were around her and around

419
00:24:06,445 --> 00:24:10,445
Speaker 1: Chalamont Park and figure out their patterns of life, because

420
00:24:10,445 --> 00:24:12,885
Speaker 1: the evidence points to the person who put Ebbie in

421
00:24:12,925 --> 00:24:16,605
Speaker 1: that drain pipe being someone who knows this area intimately.

422
00:24:17,285 --> 00:24:20,725
Speaker 1: And besides the incident report, the security guard has given

423
00:24:20,765 --> 00:24:24,245
Speaker 1: even more conflicting information and we need to figure out

424
00:24:24,685 --> 00:24:29,165
Speaker 1: why his stories don't match. I'm Katherine Townsend. This is

425
00:24:29,205 --> 00:24:34,085
Speaker 1: Helen Gone. Helen Gone is a production of School of

426
00:24:34,165 --> 00:24:38,125
Speaker 1: Humans and iHeartRadio. It's written and hosted by me Katherine

427
00:24:38,165 --> 00:24:42,165
Speaker 1: Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts and Michael Doubt. Our

428
00:24:42,205 --> 00:24:46,525
Speaker 1: executive producers are Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and Virginia Prescott.

429
00:24:47,205 --> 00:24:50,205
Speaker 1: Mix and master is by Ryan Peoples and our music

430
00:24:50,445 --> 00:24:55,205
Speaker 1: is by Bensley. If you have any information regarding the

431
00:24:55,245 --> 00:24:58,725
Speaker 1: disappearance of Ebby Steppic. You can call our tipline at

432
00:24:58,805 --> 00:25:07,605
Speaker 1: six seven eight six three two six one five nine

433
00:25:10,005 --> 00:25:19,805
Speaker 1: School of Humans, School of Humans,