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Speaker 1: Hey, that folks. It is Thursday, January fifteenth, and the

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Speaker 1: old pair in the so called O Pair affair double

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Speaker 1: murder trial has rapped her testimony and we got a

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Speaker 1: few problems. And with that, welcome to this episode of

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Speaker 1: Amy and TJ Robes. It got testy, didn't get nasty,

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Speaker 1: but you could tell she got annoyed at times. The

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Speaker 1: defense seems to make the points they want to make,

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Speaker 1: but there are some bigger things at play. But first

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Speaker 1: of all, I was surprised she wasn't up there longer.

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Speaker 2: I was surprised that they rapped at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day yesterday, because yes, this is key her testimony,

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Speaker 2: Juliana Perez Mahales. Her testimony key to the prosecution, and

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Speaker 2: it's key to the defense too, because they needed to

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Speaker 2: destroy or at least question her credibility, and they made

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Speaker 2: some headway doing just that yesterday.

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Speaker 3: From disobserver, let me ask.

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Speaker 1: This, if the jury doesn't believe this woman is does

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Speaker 1: that mean they would have to vote for an acquittal.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is, can you be sitting on that

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Speaker 1: jury and go, I don't believe that woman at all

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Speaker 1: and still find him guilty.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that's the answer, because we're listening and

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Speaker 2: we're hearing now what they are presenting. Their prosecution is

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Speaker 2: presenting some blood evidence. But yeah, based on his version

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Speaker 2: of events, he would have had blood on him, So

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Speaker 2: it would be a very significant amount of evidence that

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Speaker 2: would be needed to forensically tie him to the actual

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Speaker 2: murder because without hurt credible testimony, this case is very flimsy.

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Speaker 1: So and a reminder, Joseph Ryan and Christine Banfield are dead.

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Speaker 1: These two are dead. Christine Banfield, the husband of Brendan

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Speaker 1: excuse me, the wife of Brendan Banfield, who is on

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Speaker 1: trial for killing wife. And Joseph Ryan, a stranger who

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Speaker 1: was lured to the house who they plan to frame,

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Speaker 1: according to prosecutors, for the death of Christine Banfield, and

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Speaker 1: then shoot the man. He's the hero, but instead he's

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Speaker 1: on trial for double murder. There's this is where we

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Speaker 1: are now, Roes, we got a lot of details. This

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Speaker 1: was a very I mean, this was a drawn out

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Speaker 1: It took them a while to come up with the

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Speaker 1: plan and then to execute this very complicated plan. But

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Speaker 1: she is the one who was giving us all these

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Speaker 1: details about the plan. And right now, Robes, there are

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Speaker 1: questions about her motives. We've known that from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: But they're trying to say this is all set up

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Speaker 1: by a woman who wants to save her own ass.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because for more than a year she had

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Speaker 2: the same version of events that Brendan did. She claimed

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Speaker 2: that the scene was exactly as they described it, that

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Speaker 2: they don't know what was going on between Christine Banfield

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Speaker 2: and this stranger, but that when he walked in, he

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Speaker 2: was defending his wife by killing the attacker, and the

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Speaker 2: attacker was stabbing his wife. She stood by that story

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Speaker 2: for more than a year, and then right before her

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Speaker 2: trial was about to start, and right as we started hearing,

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Speaker 2: as they were reading it in court yesterday, the letter

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Speaker 2: she was writing to Brendan and his mom, she was

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Speaker 2: getting more desperate, she was getting more depressed, she was

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Speaker 2: becoming suicidal.

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Speaker 3: And then this plea deal lands.

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Speaker 2: In her lap moan she basically gets out of jail

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Speaker 2: once she testifies against Brendan Boom.

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Speaker 1: Sweet plea deal. Gonna get to go back to Brazil,

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Speaker 1: be free, and might even make a little money along

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Speaker 1: the way. We are going to get into why that

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Speaker 1: was also a big deal. We found out about some negotiations,

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Speaker 1: she's having to possibly sell her story. So Rodes, I

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Speaker 1: guess as we go through here, there were two key issues.

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Speaker 1: One you just mentioned the letters. Two, I think is

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Speaker 1: what I just mentioned about her making a deal. So

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Speaker 1: let's go with these two issues here. Let's start with

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Speaker 1: the letters. First of all, there were a ton of excerpts,

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Speaker 1: and I thought this was effective. He forced her to

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Speaker 1: read her own words tons of times.

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Speaker 3: Woo.

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Speaker 2: John Carroll is the name of the defense attorney, and

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Speaker 2: we have been describing him as just warm and fatherly,

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Speaker 2: grandfatherly as he's asking tough questions. So it's interesting she

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Speaker 2: was getting so annoyed and so frustrated because his point

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Speaker 2: that he was trying to make. How can you be

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Speaker 2: the person who's creating this narrative of what happened and

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Speaker 2: not remember where you were when it happened, not remember

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Speaker 2: who wrote what email. These are significant moments in your

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Speaker 2: life where you are doing something so secretive and so illegal,

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Speaker 2: and you were setting up someone to get murdered? Would

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Speaker 2: you not remember who did it and when you did

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Speaker 2: it and where you did it?

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Speaker 1: That is in the when and where and how and

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Speaker 1: who it has to do with someone set up they say,

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Speaker 1: a false fet life account. Fet Life, if you don't know,

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Speaker 1: I assume you don't, is apparently a website where you

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Speaker 1: can go on and find other people who are like

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Speaker 1: minded in that S and M world and want to

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Speaker 1: set up whatever sex scenario. Fine, but they set up,

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Speaker 1: according to prosecutors, this account in her name. To do it,

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Speaker 1: they had to retrieve her laptop without her knowing it.

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Speaker 1: So the lawyer, the defense attorney is saying, hey, o pair,

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Speaker 1: where how did you get the laptop, where did you go,

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Speaker 1: how did long did you have it? And who actually

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Speaker 1: was on the if you're doing it. She had no

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Speaker 1: answers to anything.

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Speaker 3: She couldn't remember.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, you know, the other point of this

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Speaker 2: that made it all the more I would think memorable

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Speaker 2: in the moment is they had to take the laptop

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Speaker 2: while Christine, the wife was at home stressful time.

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Speaker 3: That would be.

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Speaker 2: Imagine that you're sneaking and stealing someone's computer, who is

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Speaker 2: in the home, who if they catch you, You literally

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Speaker 2: have no reason why you would have their computer, and

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Speaker 2: what you're doing is setting up their death.

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Speaker 1: It's key to the crime. And she has no idea

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Speaker 1: who took it, who put it back? Who actually physically

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Speaker 1: signed up for it. Where were you in? She has

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Speaker 1: no idea.

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Speaker 2: Who was reading the messages back and forth to these

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Speaker 2: folks that they were conversing with on fet life. They

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Speaker 2: were trying to find the right person to set up

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Speaker 2: for a murder, and that involved not needing that person

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Speaker 2: ahead of time, which is it's good to know that

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Speaker 2: some people actually are taking safety in mind and say, yeah,

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Speaker 2: before we do this, you know, violent or like full

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Speaker 2: violent I guess sex act.

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Speaker 3: Let's meet in person and make sure that we don't have.

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Speaker 2: Trust issues before we do this fairly non conventional violent

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Speaker 2: sex act together.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to Starbucks for coffee before I come over

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Speaker 1: and fake raping you with a knife.

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Speaker 3: Literally, that is apparently how it works.

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Speaker 2: And so they were running into roadblocks because people were

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Speaker 2: actually going about it in this safe way.

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Speaker 1: It's nice to know these fetish just do it in

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Speaker 1: a safe.

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Speaker 2: Mindful way before I end up, yes, cutting your clothes

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Speaker 2: off with a knife and gagging you.

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Speaker 3: Let's let's se yeah, sure, have a drink. Let me

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Speaker 3: see that we're both good with this.

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Speaker 1: But I get it.

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Speaker 2: They had to go through several different folks to find

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Speaker 2: the person and it ended up being Unfortunately for Joseph Ryan,

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Speaker 2: he ended up agreeing to carry out this sex fetish without.

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Speaker 3: Meeting up in person.

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Speaker 2: But you would think again conversing with people asking very

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Speaker 2: violent specific things.

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Speaker 3: Who wrote the email? Who read the email? She couldn't

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Speaker 3: remember anything he wrote.

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Speaker 1: He read a few. He went through a few of

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Speaker 1: the notes that had to be written to other people,

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Speaker 1: and he said, well, who wrote this one? Was it

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Speaker 1: you or was it Brendan? Don't know? Who wrote this?

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Speaker 1: Don't know? Said can you tell by the way you write?

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Speaker 1: Who writes like that? Who types like that? Don't know?

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Speaker 2: And she ended up getting at one point so annoyed

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Speaker 2: she said, I Am not going to do this. And

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Speaker 2: when she got defiant like that, the defense attorney went

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Speaker 2: to the judge and said help. She just said, she's

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Speaker 2: not going to do this anymore. What should we do?

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Speaker 1: So this was a moment at least it would have

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Speaker 1: left an impression on the jury. She couldn't remember anything. Now,

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Speaker 1: I thought it might have been I'm putting myself in

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Speaker 1: the position of the juror the time of the moments

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Speaker 1: that turned me off most is when she tried to

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Speaker 1: explain things that didn't need explaining. Where she's almost talking

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Speaker 1: to him like he's stupid talking to her. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember. Yeah, don't you know what it's like this.

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Speaker 1: It's called brain block when you have trauma, sometimes it

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Speaker 1: tries the brain is trying to protect you from that

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Speaker 1: terrible memory. So it's da da dada. She went on,

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Speaker 1: And I was a little turned off by it. Maybe

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Speaker 1: the jurors were, but this is where your guy, the

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Speaker 1: defense attorney, I thought he had a good response to

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Speaker 1: that too. So wait a minute, I thought, the trauma,

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Speaker 1: you forget things after the trauma happened. Wait, you forgot

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Speaker 1: everything leading up to the trauma?

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Speaker 2: Yes, he said, Would you not remember anything before the trauma?

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Speaker 1: Yes? I thought like that was on his toes at

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Speaker 1: the moment, because when he said, I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not how trauma works. You don't forget your whole

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Speaker 1: life before the traumatic thing happened. You forget the moment

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Speaker 1: the trauma happened, or maybe something immediately after. He made

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Speaker 1: a good point. She didn't have an answer for that either.

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Speaker 2: She didn't, and her frustration and her demeanor was a

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Speaker 2: huge turn off. I'm just saying in terms of being

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Speaker 2: a jur and looking at it. From that perspective, I'm

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Speaker 2: supposed to believe you, supposed to believe that you're telling

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Speaker 2: the truth now, But you've only remembered the things that

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Speaker 2: the prosecutions say happened, and you're not remembering the details

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Speaker 2: that would make me believe that you're actually saying what

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Speaker 2: happened based on your memory, based.

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Speaker 3: On actual events.

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Speaker 2: And so that is when the defense attorney suggested that

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Speaker 2: she read through, basically the talking points of the prosecution

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Speaker 2: to remember or to create the version that she was

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Speaker 2: now testifying to.

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Speaker 3: And that's a powerful suggestion.

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Speaker 1: A powerful suggestion, and the timeline is powerful. They made

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Speaker 1: these points rogues that some of her letters, like you

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Speaker 1: felt bad for I mean, she sounded desperate in jail.

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Speaker 1: She's been sitting there for almost a year. Oh, it

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Speaker 1: was awful. And then all of a sudden everything flipped.

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Speaker 1: I guess because she knew she was about to get

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Speaker 1: out of jail. That could change your mood right significantly.

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Speaker 1: But does that mean she would have had to Well, again,

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Speaker 1: she ain't the point, and she put it out there.

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Speaker 1: I'm here now because the truth needs to be out there,

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Speaker 1: and I want to tell the truth. And he said,

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Speaker 1: you had a year. So why was it not until this.

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Speaker 2: Day, right before your trial, right when prosecutors offered you

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Speaker 2: a sweet, hard deal. Then all of a sudden, at

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Speaker 2: that point, suddenly the truth was important.

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned as well, and we both said, if

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Speaker 1: you're sitting in again, folks were only putting ourselves, not

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Speaker 1: as journalists but as jurors. Put yourself in that position,

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Speaker 1: and as jurors. You said that moment was kind of

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Speaker 1: a turnoff, as she was getting combative. The other moment

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Speaker 1: that might have been a turnoff robes If you want

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Speaker 1: credibility here and again, give the defense attorney credit for

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Speaker 1: this because he caught it. He wasn't expecting it. When

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Speaker 1: she said they deserve something woo. She wrote in one

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Speaker 1: of her letters about deserve like they deserve some money

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Speaker 1: for this because.

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Speaker 3: He said we deserve something.

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Speaker 1: It was a letter from her or back and forth

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Speaker 1: with her family, and there on the stand she kind

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Speaker 1: of was defiant and doubled down and said, yep, I

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Speaker 1: deserve He was in this moment fun not meaning to be,

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Speaker 1: but he said a very common sense thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he said, when you say we, that means you

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Speaker 2: you deserve something. But aren't you admitting to murder. So

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Speaker 2: you murdered somebody, and yet you deserve something for the murder.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was good.

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Speaker 3: It was brilliant actually.

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Speaker 1: Because he seemed dumbfounded. Genuinely, Yes, I deserve something. He said,

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Speaker 1: you shot somebody. Why do you deserve? What the hell

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Speaker 1: did you get?

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Speaker 2: And she's like, not because of the murder, but because

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Speaker 2: of what I've been through. But she's been through what

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Speaker 2: she's been through admittedly because she shot someone.

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Speaker 1: So he made that point. So these were the parts

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Speaker 1: that were I guess you could argue problematic. And they

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Speaker 1: went on, I don't know how it sits with you, eh,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're sitting here listening to somebody who says,

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Speaker 1: just want to tell the truth, and then you hear

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Speaker 1: all these letters she's writing back and forth to producers,

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Speaker 1: talking about I want to negotiate more. I want more

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Speaker 1: than that. Oh if I take this deal from Netflix,

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Speaker 1: then I'll lose out. She sounded like a didn't sound

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Speaker 1: like somebody said in jail.

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Speaker 3: She sounded opportunistic.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and the Netflix information was for me very problematic

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Speaker 2: in terms of her credibility. Looking at it again through

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Speaker 2: the lens of a juror, I'm hearing Wait, this girl

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Speaker 2: has completely changed her story a year later because she's

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Speaker 2: going to get out of jail. Now she's negotiating with

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Speaker 2: television producers and actually getting an entitled attitude about what

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Speaker 2: she's owed or what she deserves.

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Speaker 3: That's problematic.

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Speaker 1: Conjurers are human beings. I mean, you can help, but

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Speaker 1: sit there. I know they got a job to do,

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Speaker 1: but I'm looking at I'm looking at something that doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound feel right to me. You try to judge it fairly,

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Speaker 1: but still some of those were a problem. We'll stay

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Speaker 1: with us here, folks. It wasn't all bad for the

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Speaker 1: prosecution having the O Pair up on the stand. Why

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Speaker 1: the digital trail now is going to be such a

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Speaker 1: big deal in how the old pair could help them

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Speaker 1: make their case. Stay here and.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone as we talk about the All Pair

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Speaker 2: affair murders trial that has just been captivating this country

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Speaker 2: this week because the details coming out. Having the All

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Speaker 2: Pair herself take the stand, we don't see cases like

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Speaker 2: this very often, and knowing that the majority of the

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Speaker 2: prosecution's case relies so heavily on what the O Pair

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Speaker 2: is now saying happened on that day, that February day

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three. All eyes are on her, her demeanor,

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Speaker 2: how she reacted to the cross examination. It was a

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Speaker 2: spectacle to see her testify, and how she handled the

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Speaker 2: cross examination was not great for the prosecution. I think

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Speaker 2: the defense made some significant headway in terms of chipping

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Speaker 2: away at her credibility and whether or not she is

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Speaker 2: to be believed and questioning her motives for testifying.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's a big part of it.

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Speaker 1: We've been watching this whole thing together, But do you

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Speaker 1: get a center, you have a feeling. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: was such a dominant part of the first week of

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Speaker 1: testimony here, But have you heard anything yet that's building

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Speaker 1: up a evidence case against him? I mean it's just

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Speaker 1: it's early maybe, but right now he said she said

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Speaker 1: versus evidence.

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Speaker 3: That is the majority of the case.

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Speaker 2: Now this morning, we should point out we've been watching

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Speaker 2: some of the testimony and they've had detectives come back

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Speaker 2: up on the stand, and the impact is pretty much

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Speaker 2: the visual. I mean, they the jury is seeing crime

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Speaker 2: scene photos. They're seeing the blood stains, they're seeing the

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Speaker 2: bloody knife, they're seeing the gun used. So it brings

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Speaker 2: the weight of the crime in the forefront. You just

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Speaker 2: see the violence and the blood and just the aftermath

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Speaker 2: that it feels devastating to see that. But I have

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Speaker 2: yet to hear that. We've seen the clothing that Brendan

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Speaker 2: was wearing. They showed his bloodied jeans and blood marks

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Speaker 2: on his jacket.

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Speaker 3: But the problem is he was there.

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Speaker 2: He claims to have been trying to help his wife,

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Speaker 2: so he had her blood all over him. So I

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Speaker 2: don't know how they're going to, from an evidence standpoint,

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Speaker 2: prove that the blood he got on him was from

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Speaker 2: murdering her versus from trying to help her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a different version. We were all in here.

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Speaker 1: I fired a gun at this guy who was doing

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Speaker 1: this thing. Yes, everything on him, he can explain away, Well,

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Speaker 1: there's blood on Yeah, I told you I was in

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Speaker 1: the room and I shot a guy, and then I

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Speaker 1: tried to help my wife. I don't know how you

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Speaker 1: get around that, the way they get around it. Two

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Speaker 1: things right, One you got the old pair, so if

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Speaker 1: you believe her, all right, he's done. And two robes

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Speaker 1: fet life. I'm cure. I'm gonna have to check out

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Speaker 1: this website at some point yet, just out of research purposes,

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Speaker 1: but ropes the whole foundation of their case is that

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Speaker 1: he set up a murder plot. Key to the murder

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Speaker 1: plot was luning Joseph Ryan to the house. There is

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Speaker 1: a question of whether or not Brendan Banfield actually had

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Speaker 1: anything to do with setting up that account, and there's

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Speaker 1: even questions if Christine Banfield herself was the one doing it.

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Speaker 1: Now where are we after the old pair in because

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Speaker 1: we haven't gotten the digital stuff yet, right.

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Speaker 2: And that's going to be a boon for the defense

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Speaker 2: we're expecting, just because we do know that detectives that

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Speaker 2: were once working on this case that were moved off

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Speaker 2: believed after doing the digital forensic work that they do

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Speaker 2: for a living, they determined they believe that Christine is

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Speaker 2: the one who set up the account.

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Speaker 1: And if a jura believe that this is a dune.

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Speaker 3: It's a done deal.

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Speaker 2: That is the case, yes, because if you have that,

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Speaker 2: in combination with the O pair not being able to

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Speaker 2: give me detailed memories of who set up the account,

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Speaker 2: when the account was set up, who wrote what emails?

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Speaker 2: Because for me to believe her version, I would need

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Speaker 2: to believe that she was sure about who did what when,

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Speaker 2: and she clearly was not. So that gave me a

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Speaker 2: lot of doubt about her ability to convince me the

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Speaker 2: juror that she and Brendan set up that fet life account.

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Speaker 2: Because yes, as you point out, that is key to

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Speaker 2: believing these murder charges or to convicting Brendan Banfield of

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Speaker 2: these murder charges.

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Speaker 3: You have to believe that.

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Speaker 2: He and the O pair set the fat Life up,

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Speaker 2: that life account up to frame Joseph Ryan and murder

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Speaker 2: his wife.

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Speaker 1: Because if you answer the question of no, I don't

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Speaker 1: believe he set it up, then that means and is

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Speaker 1: crime meditate anything?

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Speaker 2: Then I was trying to think of another version, like

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Speaker 2: could he but no, they're.

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Speaker 3: Not saying this.

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Speaker 2: Could he say that he found out about the fat

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Speaker 2: Life account and then he stormed in he got up.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if there could be another,

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Speaker 2: but like, they're not even giving that as a as

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Speaker 2: an option.

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Speaker 1: All right, this is the last question I have for

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Speaker 1: you in putting yourself in the position of the juror.

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Speaker 1: Do you struggle with why would this woman go through

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Speaker 1: all this to make up a pretty elaborate story like

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Speaker 1: this is a lot to pin on Brendan Banfield for

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Speaker 1: the sake of getting yourself out of you. This is

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Speaker 1: an elaborate, detailed story, and so as a juror, even

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Speaker 1: if I don't really believe everything she's saying, even if

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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced of the digital evidence, am I convinced

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Speaker 1: like that she would make all of this complicated, detailed

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Speaker 1: story up. That also seems improblem.

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Speaker 2: You make a point, and so I don't know as

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Speaker 2: a juror how you weigh both of those questions that

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Speaker 2: are reasonable to have. I think you can reasonably question

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Speaker 2: her motives but also at the same time question her

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Speaker 2: ability to be, in a sense, the mastermind of this

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Speaker 2: new plot, unless, like the defense is saying, the prosecution

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Speaker 2: came up with this and fed it to her and

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Speaker 2: now she is just regurgitorney because I don't think anyone

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Speaker 2: will believe that she, at the age of twenty one

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Speaker 2: or twenty two when this was going on, would be

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Speaker 2: able to come up with this while sitting in jail ruminating.

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Speaker 1: And that makes sense. There you go. She just essentially

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Speaker 1: give me the form. I'll sign it. Whatever the details are,

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Speaker 1: I'll study them and repeat them in court for you

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Speaker 1: if you want me to. Okay, I would buy that

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Speaker 1: as a juror. Boy, I swear, I swear if we

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Speaker 1: ever get called for a jury, we're gonna send them

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Speaker 1: back to this episode. Listen to this one.

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Speaker 3: Who's gonna want us on a jow Nobody is going to.

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Speaker 1: We would mess up a jury room.

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Speaker 3: You would hang a jury. I know that much.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah we.

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Speaker 2: Might.

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Speaker 3: I might be able to be convinced. I'm like, I

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Speaker 3: just want to go home. But no, I know you

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Speaker 3: would hang a jury. I know you would.

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Speaker 1: All right, folks, well, we wanted to hop on the trial.

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Speaker 1: As we record this. They're about to go into or

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Speaker 1: maybe at lunch right now, but we're keeping an eye

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Speaker 1: on it and anything else jumps out, we would jump

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Speaker 1: back on and give you any significant updates as always.

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Speaker 1: Top right corner of your Apple podcast app, where you

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Speaker 1: see our show page, you see that button it says

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00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: follow hit that you can get our updates coming right

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00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 1: to you. But for now on behalf of Amy Robot,

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00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: come TJ Holmes, talk y'all sooner