WEBVTT - 10. See Something, Say Nothing

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<v Speaker 1>Multimillionaire businessman Mansar al Kassar has been tied to three

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<v Speaker 1>decades of international crime, arms deals, and terror attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>This is from a twenty ten National Geographic documentary titled

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<v Speaker 2>Inside the DEA, which offered an unabashedly flattering portrayal of

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<v Speaker 2>the Drug Enforcement Administration and its so called narco terrorism stings.

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<v Speaker 3>Kassar is the quintessential bond bad guy helved.

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<v Speaker 2>The film focused on the DEA's investigation of Mansar al Kassar,

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<v Speaker 2>an arms dealer who became known as the Prince of

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<v Speaker 2>Marbea for the mansion he owned in southern Spain. The

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<v Speaker 2>DEA tricked Kassar into thinking he was selling arms to

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<v Speaker 2>you guessed it, the FARC. As the War on terror

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<v Speaker 2>fully eclipsed the War on drugs, narco terrorism stings allowed

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<v Speaker 2>the DEA to stay relevant in the public eye and

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<v Speaker 2>worthy of congressional funding. Following this assist from National Geographic,

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<v Speaker 2>the DEA turned to CBS's Sixty Minutes for an in

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<v Speaker 2>depth look at another case, this one involving a Russian

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<v Speaker 2>arms dealer named Victor Boot.

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<v Speaker 4>Boot has been protected by powerful friends and long considered

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<v Speaker 4>untouchable by law enforcement, but three years ago, the DEA

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<v Speaker 4>devised a bold undercover operation to capture him.

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<v Speaker 2>Nicknamed the Merchant of Death, Boot was the inspiration for

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<v Speaker 2>the two thousand and five movie Lord of War starring

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<v Speaker 2>Nicholas Cage.

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<v Speaker 3>How many close your coupes do you have?

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<v Speaker 5>Whatever we say it is because no one else will

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<v Speaker 5>know the difference.

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<v Speaker 2>Three years after that movie's release, the DEA arrested Boot

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<v Speaker 2>in Thailand, where he'd agreed to sell weapons to FARK agents,

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<v Speaker 2>who were of course paid informants. Boot spent more than

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<v Speaker 2>a decade in a US prison, but in December twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty two he was released.

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<v Speaker 6>This has been a negotiations that had been going at

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<v Speaker 6>the highest levels, but had been happening behind closed doors.

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<v Speaker 2>Boot was one half of a prisoner swap with Russia

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<v Speaker 2>for WNBA star Britney Griner.

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<v Speaker 6>It is unclear at this point who the White House

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<v Speaker 6>is going to swap for. We actually just have that in.

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<v Speaker 6>This is Victor Boot, the convicted Russian arms dealer. This

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<v Speaker 6>is a huge deal. It is breaking right now.

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<v Speaker 2>The DEA would like you to focus on Gasar and Boot.

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<v Speaker 2>James Bond bad guys, as federal agents describe them, but

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<v Speaker 2>they are exceptions, Most people caught up in dea narco

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<v Speaker 2>terrorism stings are like Flavio Georgescu, no serious criminal connections.

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<v Speaker 2>That is, yes, until well paid informants pretending to be

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<v Speaker 2>FARC members showed up. I'm Trevor Aronson from Western Sound

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<v Speaker 2>and iHeart Podcast. This is Alphabet Boys, episode ten, See Something,

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<v Speaker 2>Say Nothing?

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<v Speaker 7>Hi, Flavia?

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, how are you?

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<v Speaker 2>It's July twenty twenty two, and Flavio is in New York.

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<v Speaker 2>He's out of prison after serving nearly eight years, and

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<v Speaker 2>he's been transferred to a halfway house in a rough

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<v Speaker 2>area of the Bronx.

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<v Speaker 3>How are you doing a little bit hard?

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<v Speaker 8>It was not that is like I always think.

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<v Speaker 7>About what's that.

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<v Speaker 2>It hasn't been easy transitioning to the halfway house?

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<v Speaker 9>Is that what you mean?

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<v Speaker 8>Oh?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>And that environment changed me a little bit. Right now,

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<v Speaker 3>I just see it because over there was like a

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<v Speaker 3>time capsule. But right now, like, okay, I tried to

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<v Speaker 3>go outside in the you know when I see people

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<v Speaker 3>running around and screaming, and that was not bo I'm

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<v Speaker 3>gonna I'm gonna make it.

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<v Speaker 2>Flavio could have received a life sentence following his conviction

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<v Speaker 2>a trial, but he didn't. The judge gave him ten years,

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<v Speaker 2>which will end up being about eight years in prison,

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<v Speaker 2>a year and a half way house in another year

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<v Speaker 2>on probation. It's a life altering sentence, no doubt. It

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<v Speaker 2>means Flavio spends his entire forties behind bars, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>not exactly the kind of sentence you'd expect a narco

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<v Speaker 2>terrorist to receive, and that's really the point. Flavio, like

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<v Speaker 2>most caught in DEA narco terrorism stings, is a terrorist,

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<v Speaker 2>a drug runner, or an arms dealer, and he's certainly

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<v Speaker 2>not a narco terrorist. These days, most of the people

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<v Speaker 2>prosecuted as part of DEA narco terrorism stings are free,

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<v Speaker 2>having served sentences like Flavia's, or in some cases, even

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<v Speaker 2>less time. They all just had the misfortune of getting

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<v Speaker 2>swept up in a nearly two decade hustle that the

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<v Speaker 2>DEA ran using unsuspecting people around the world to gin

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<v Speaker 2>up so called narco terrorism cases and secure millions of

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<v Speaker 2>dollars in funding every year. If you're inclined to believe

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<v Speaker 2>Flavio's story that he called the CIA to bust Wan,

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<v Speaker 2>a FARK representative who was secretly a DEA informant, The

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<v Speaker 2>story is altogether tragic, the case of a man who

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<v Speaker 2>sought to help the US government only to be prosecuted

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<v Speaker 2>and imprisoned by the US government, and the personal costs

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<v Speaker 2>of this for Flavio have been devastating.

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<v Speaker 8>I don't have a small modil of water.

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<v Speaker 3>Still do one another one.

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<v Speaker 2>There's this piece of tape from the DEA's undercover sting

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<v Speaker 2>I find haunting now, so many years after it was recorded.

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<v Speaker 2>It really has nothing to do with the DEA's case.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just small talk between Flavio and Wan. But this

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<v Speaker 2>small talk seems appalling to me in hindsight. Flavio and

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<v Speaker 2>Wan are at the area in Bucharest, Romania. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the first time they meet.

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<v Speaker 8>How many kids you have? I don't have kids kids.

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<v Speaker 2>Wan tells Flavio that he has seven children, and he

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<v Speaker 2>asks Flavio if he has any kids.

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<v Speaker 3>I traveled too much.

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<v Speaker 4>And I have time for the kids.

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<v Speaker 3>You will, though, and find your way.

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<v Speaker 2>I travel too much, Flavio says, I haven't had time

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<v Speaker 2>for kids. Wan tells him you will.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you'll have to, because why is it going to

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<v Speaker 6>be a loan loan all age by yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Flavio had only been married to his wife Andre for

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<v Speaker 2>a few years when the DEA arrested him in Montenegro.

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<v Speaker 2>He and Andre had big plans like most couples do,

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<v Speaker 2>but after Flavio's arrest, Andra moved to New York and

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<v Speaker 2>liquidated everything they owned to pay for his criminal defense,

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<v Speaker 2>which of course ended with Flavio being sentenced to prison.

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<v Speaker 2>Andra stayed in New York, building a new life for

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<v Speaker 2>herself and supporting Flavia in prison. She felt a duty

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<v Speaker 2>as his wife to be there for him, but soon

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<v Speaker 2>after Flavio arrived at the halfway House, Andre filed for divorce.

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<v Speaker 2>She'd helped him through prison, and now with Flavio out,

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<v Speaker 2>she's done.

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<v Speaker 9>Andre hates me because I destroy her life. I took

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<v Speaker 9>the best years from her life. Intend to to have

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<v Speaker 9>children together, Intend to have a normal family myself. I

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<v Speaker 9>believe on you. I believe on this on Dao, which

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<v Speaker 9>I took to protect and defend his nation. And I said, man,

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<v Speaker 9>this is my chance right now, this is what I'm

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<v Speaker 9>gonna do with this investigation. We're gonna be so crazy,

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<v Speaker 9>will be so big, show the armless laundry and everything

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<v Speaker 9>would be amazing. And look at me. I'm I'm I've

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<v Speaker 9>you know, sometimes I said, I don't know. I I asked,

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<v Speaker 9>got to keep me healthy. But sometimes when I wake

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<v Speaker 9>up in the morning, I feel like and see this room,

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<v Speaker 9>I feel like, you know what. I was better not

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<v Speaker 9>to wake up and just go to sleep and go

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<v Speaker 9>to sleep forever. And that's it.

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<v Speaker 3>Because Andre.

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<v Speaker 2>Andre introduced me years ago to Flavio and his case,

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted Andre's voice to be part of this story.

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<v Speaker 2>I really tried to make that happen. One afternoon, she

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<v Speaker 2>and I met at a coffee shop in Manhattan to talk.

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<v Speaker 2>I agreed not to record our conversation. Andre told me

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<v Speaker 2>that she's never doubted that Flavio was working for the CIA,

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<v Speaker 2>or at the very least that Flavio thought he was

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<v Speaker 2>working for the CIA. But she told me that doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>make her any less angry about what happened. In Andre's view,

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<v Speaker 2>even if Flavio had been working for the US government,

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<v Speaker 2>he'd put her in there marriage second behind whatever sort

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<v Speaker 2>of operation he was running against Juan and the other Colombians.

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<v Speaker 2>Flavio didn't need to get involved in any of this,

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<v Speaker 2>as Andra sees it, and he should have been thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about her and the risks involved in what he was doing,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what she's unable to forgive. So now with

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<v Speaker 2>Flavio in a halfway house and the divorce finalized, Andre

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<v Speaker 2>wants to move on with her life. No Flavio, no

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<v Speaker 2>talk about the CIA calls, and no interview with me.

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<v Speaker 2>And honestly, I get it. I can understand where she's

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<v Speaker 2>coming from. So I never pressured Andre again, do you.

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<v Speaker 9>I don't know? It's so it's so much. Andre hates me.

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<v Speaker 9>Do you understand that?

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<v Speaker 2>I tell Flavio that I think losing Andre is the

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<v Speaker 2>highest price he paid for all this.

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<v Speaker 7>He agrees.

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<v Speaker 9>She hates me for what I did to her. I

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<v Speaker 9>put her to so much pain and to so much

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<v Speaker 9>soft and humiliate her and destroy her life for nothing.

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<v Speaker 8>How many kids you have?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't have kids, And.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess this is why I find that moment of

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<v Speaker 2>small talk between Flavio and Wan so haunting.

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<v Speaker 3>I travel too much. I didn't have time for kids.

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<v Speaker 8>You will, though, and find your way.

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<v Speaker 2>He's telling Flavio that he should have children. You don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to die old and alone, one says, But secretly

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<v Speaker 2>one knows that will likely be the consequence of what

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<v Speaker 2>he's doing. He knows He's going to send Flavio to prison,

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<v Speaker 2>and he knows that Flavio as a result, may very

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<v Speaker 2>well die old and alone.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I'm gonna die, who are gonna be next

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<v Speaker 3>to me? In the last moment of my life? I

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<v Speaker 3>lost my wife, I lost my father, I lost it,

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<v Speaker 3>not everything, BA what I'm gonna do right now?

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<v Speaker 9>Like travor is, I'm I'm like I said, I'm at

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<v Speaker 9>this point. I feel so scared.

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<v Speaker 5>More.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break, Massimo Romagnoli and Christian Ventilla, Flavio's two

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<v Speaker 2>colleagues and the weapons deal with Wan, received leniency in

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<v Speaker 2>their sentencing because they agreed to plete guilty and testify

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<v Speaker 2>against Flavio. Massimo was released in prison in September twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 2>and Christian roughly a year later. They're now back in Europe.

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<v Speaker 2>Christian is quiet about his new life, but Massimo, that's

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<v Speaker 2>another story.

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<v Speaker 5>Romagnol delid.

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<v Speaker 8>Important.

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<v Speaker 2>Massimo is back in the public eye in a big way,

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<v Speaker 2>as if he had never been convicted of participating in

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<v Speaker 2>an arms deal to send weapons to terrorists. You can

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<v Speaker 2>find him talking about politics on Italian.

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<v Speaker 7>TV toms Go.

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<v Speaker 2>Massimo is at exclusive events, speaking on panels with public

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<v Speaker 2>officials and corporate executives.

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<v Speaker 6>Romaannolis the progress of consulting.

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<v Speaker 3>In Antanto.

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<v Speaker 2>Vitore, and Massimo posts a lot of videos of himself

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<v Speaker 2>dressed to the nines and traveling first class around Europe.

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<v Speaker 8>Bimbi.

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<v Speaker 2>Massimo has not only crafted an image for himself as

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<v Speaker 2>a connected guy, but also as a hard worker. He

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<v Speaker 2>declares in one video that he'll work until he's one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty years old if God allows. One thing

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<v Speaker 2>Massimo has worked hard at is spinning his conviction and imprisonment.

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<v Speaker 2>On a recent resume, he lists his employment from twenty

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<v Speaker 2>fifteen to twenty seventeen, the time he was incarcerated, as

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<v Speaker 2>a teacher at federal detention facilities. Massimo also self published

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<v Speaker 2>a book written in Italian titled An Innocent Trapped. In it,

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<v Speaker 2>Massimo claims that he's innocent of all the charges resulting

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<v Speaker 2>from quote the conspiracy of the Romanians Flavio Georgescu and

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<v Speaker 2>Christian Ventilla, of which I was the victim.

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<v Speaker 10>Being innocent to his da injurious because you have no alibis,

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<v Speaker 10>someone wrote, and I actually had the feeling of not

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<v Speaker 10>being able to acconerate myself with any proof and with

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<v Speaker 10>any concrete argument.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a translated passage from Masimo's book.

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<v Speaker 10>Because when one is truly innocent, only the candor and

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<v Speaker 10>clarity of one's confession are the true proof, the true,

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<v Speaker 10>infallible evidence of the loathfulness of one's sections.

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<v Speaker 2>And Massimo's campaign to rehabilitate his image seems to have worked.

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<v Speaker 2>He's now running a lobbying and consulting firm in Brussels,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's the president of the Freedom Movement, a political

0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:49.480
<v Speaker 2>organization that promotes Italian workers, culture and products throughout Europe. Massimo,

0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.440
<v Speaker 2>of course, refused to do an interview. Here's what he

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.400
<v Speaker 2>emailed to me, his words, again voiced by an actor.

0:15:57.200 --> 0:16:00.200
<v Speaker 10>I don't want to risk to have any problem or

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 10>get mixed up with mister Flavia. He already destroyed my

0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:11.400
<v Speaker 10>life one time and it's enough, so please respect my will.

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.960
<v Speaker 2>When Massimo and Christian both agreed to testify against Flavio,

0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:20.440
<v Speaker 2>they created something of a partnership, a partnership that apparently

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:26.200
<v Speaker 2>hasn't ended. Like Massimo, Christian has publicly downplayed his time

0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.800
<v Speaker 2>in prison on his LinkedIn profile. Christian List's employment from

0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.920
<v Speaker 2>twenty fifteen to twenty eighteen, the period he was incarcerated

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:40.520
<v Speaker 2>as a quote external partner at a US government agency.

0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, that's not inaccurate, I guess, but it's

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:53.520
<v Speaker 2>definitely a strange way to say you are a federal inmate. Christian,

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 2>also on LinkedIn, lists himself as a consultant to Massimo's

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.760
<v Speaker 2>firm at business meetings. I suspect they don't advertise that

0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:06.480
<v Speaker 2>they were introduced by a mister Flavio Georgescu, international arms trafficker.

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 1>I am a hero. The Americans made me a hero,

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.480
<v Speaker 1>so I don't have to clean my name.

0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.600
<v Speaker 2>Christian, like Massimo, refused to be interviewed. Here's what he

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:18.080
<v Speaker 2>wrote to me.

0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:23.400
<v Speaker 1>This is the last conversation with you. Any other message

0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.719
<v Speaker 1>from you, I will take it as harassment.

0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.920
<v Speaker 2>What Christian appears to mean, nearest I can tell, is

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:35.760
<v Speaker 2>that he's a hero because he testified against Flavio. So yeah,

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:41.280
<v Speaker 2>Massimo and Christian heroes who refuse to be interviewed about

0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:46.320
<v Speaker 2>their apparent acts of heroism. I don't think Massimo and

0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Christian are villains. They're just patsies like Flavio, and they

0:17:53.119 --> 0:18:00.000
<v Speaker 2>flipped to save themselves at various times during our conversations.

0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Flavio has expressed real anxiety about participating in the story,

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:07.800
<v Speaker 2>has even considered backing out entirely.

0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:10.840
<v Speaker 8>Do you imagine what's happened with my leg right now?

0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:12.520
<v Speaker 8>Do you know I don't have a place to go?

0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.520
<v Speaker 8>Do you know I'm afraid when I get off from

0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 8>the Southway, so I look like I'm parano, I'm looking

0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.040
<v Speaker 8>twenty directions and everywhere, just to you know, be sure

0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:22.719
<v Speaker 8>I'm not gonna get killed.

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Flavio says he's concerned about Massimo and Christian and what

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.760
<v Speaker 2>they might do if they hear all this. We're having

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.320
<v Speaker 2>this conversation by phone. Flavio isn't his halfway house in

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 2>New York. He's been there a few months now.

0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.119
<v Speaker 8>Massimo has a lot of money, a lot of power.

0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.160
<v Speaker 8>He hates me because of me. He lost his family,

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.520
<v Speaker 8>He lost his three kids, which one of so little

0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:49.880
<v Speaker 8>at that time, was like probably four or five years old,

0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.879
<v Speaker 8>and the wife she divorced him. And if he has

0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.520
<v Speaker 8>the chance to put me on the ground, he's gonna

0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.000
<v Speaker 8>kill me with no problems, not him directed, not him

0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:07.240
<v Speaker 8>directly in Romania, extremely powerful and extremely connected and everywhere.

0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Flavio worries about extreme, if highly unlikely scenarios like those,

0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.000
<v Speaker 2>because he doesn't know what he will do with his life.

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:22.240
<v Speaker 2>He's got nothing now, no wife, no home, no money,

0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:24.840
<v Speaker 2>and he doesn't know if you should stay in the

0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 2>States or return to Europe.

0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.080
<v Speaker 8>Please understand me to travel about what I'm gonna do

0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:32.720
<v Speaker 8>in my life. I'm fifty years old. What I was

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.480
<v Speaker 8>supposed to do just outside? Did you show myself in

0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.920
<v Speaker 8>the head just because I was an idiot, just because

0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 8>I was believing in.

0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:40.800
<v Speaker 9>Your country, just because I believe on.

0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.120
<v Speaker 8>An oak which I took in front of your nation.

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.399
<v Speaker 2>Making problems worse is the fact that Flavio's attempts to

0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.800
<v Speaker 2>find a job while living in the halfway House have

0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.840
<v Speaker 2>been discouraging. Given his conviction on terrorism related charges, Employers

0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 2>automatically assume he's some sort of super villain.

0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.520
<v Speaker 3>I tried to get a job a traveler. I call

0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.879
<v Speaker 3>probably twenty companies. She said, what was the charges? What

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:10.400
<v Speaker 3>did the government charge you with? And when I said

0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:14.320
<v Speaker 3>the charges, she said, surely, see you have boss and

0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.880
<v Speaker 3>she hang up the phone. At least ten people they

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.160
<v Speaker 3>cursed me out so bad that means it's no way

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.760
<v Speaker 3>for me to have a chance to find the job.

0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 9>When I'm sucking this halfway.

0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:36.879
<v Speaker 2>House Flavio situation. It's bleak. There's an absurdity to it

0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.760
<v Speaker 2>as well. The crime Flavia was convicted of providing material

0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:47.440
<v Speaker 2>support to terrorists wouldn't hold up if he committed it today.

0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:52.600
<v Speaker 2>That's because the supposed terrorist that Flavio supported, the FARC,

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:58.520
<v Speaker 2>aren't actually terrorists any longer, at least not according to

0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the US government. In November twenty twenty one, the Biden

0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:06.680
<v Speaker 2>administration removed FARC from the State Department's list of Foreign

0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Terrorist groups in order to encourage peace between the Colombian

0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:15.960
<v Speaker 2>government and the rebels. The DEA's narco terrorism stings they

0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:17.520
<v Speaker 2>are pretty much.

0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:18.639
<v Speaker 7>Over now as a result.

0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Guys like Wan they can't pull off these cases now

0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:27.680
<v Speaker 2>that they can no longer pretend to be FARK agents.

0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:34.480
<v Speaker 2>This whole story is about pretending. Juan was pretending to

0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:38.560
<v Speaker 2>be a FARK guy. Juan's colleagues were pretending to be

0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.159
<v Speaker 2>Colombian revolutionaries. Flavia was pretending to be an arms dealer,

0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:50.800
<v Speaker 2>you know who. Throughout the deal wasn't pretending Christian and

0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Massimo unlike Flavio, they didn't have a cover story. They

0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:02.320
<v Speaker 2>didn't call the CIA, so what they were doing helping

0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.879
<v Speaker 2>Flavio broke her that arms deal for wand there's no

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:10.400
<v Speaker 2>indication that they were doing anything but that. And yet

0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.880
<v Speaker 2>the prison sentences they received were far less than what

0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Flavio received because the government needed their testimony to convict Flavio.

0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:22.080
<v Speaker 7>Is that fair?

0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Christian and Massimo they're back in Europe living a good life.

0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Flavio he's living in a halfway house in New York.

0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.679
<v Speaker 2>I've been talking over the phone with Flavio for several years,

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:42.400
<v Speaker 2>dozens and dozens of calls. I've often felt like his therapist,

0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:49.000
<v Speaker 2>but I've never met him in person. But finally Flavio

0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 2>and I have a chance to meet, So let's go

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:53.560
<v Speaker 2>to New York.

0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:55.680
<v Speaker 7>That's after the break.

0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:14.560
<v Speaker 3>That's why we're here.

0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm in a hotel room in New York with Flavio.

0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.360
<v Speaker 2>My colleague Eleanor Knight, who's helping me with production and research,

0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:24.479
<v Speaker 2>is with us.

0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:27.160
<v Speaker 3>And if I was taking some money, what you can say, oh,

0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:29.239
<v Speaker 3>Flavio is honest guy. Why he took a little bit

0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.600
<v Speaker 3>of money because he was having to pay his rent.

0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:33.000
<v Speaker 8>I'm not gonna work like that.

0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I start my recorder as Flavio being Flavio is midway

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.840
<v Speaker 2>through a monologue. He's talking to Eleanor, whom he just

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 2>met a couple of hours ago, explaining from his perspective

0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:47.959
<v Speaker 2>why he's been talking to me on the phone these

0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:48.840
<v Speaker 2>past few years.

0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:52.720
<v Speaker 3>That's why he's okay. But I tried to explain to

0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:56.199
<v Speaker 3>him a long time ago. You know, this is your

0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.520
<v Speaker 3>chance to prove they are wrong, they do wrong things.

0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.200
<v Speaker 3>This is this is my point of view right now.

0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Flavio tells Eleanor that his case is my chance to

0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:13.000
<v Speaker 2>prove a point that aggressive sting operations like the one

0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 2>that targeted him can result in the prosecution of people

0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:21.800
<v Speaker 2>who are innocent, people who, to use Flavio's words, don't

0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:22.480
<v Speaker 2>bite the bait.

0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.560
<v Speaker 3>We cannot send people to instigate people to commit crime.

0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.560
<v Speaker 3>To teach them, you let them know things which some

0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.560
<v Speaker 3>people they don't know to do it. They don't know

0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:36.720
<v Speaker 3>how to put those things together. A crime is like

0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:42.040
<v Speaker 3>a puzzle. Myself never selling guns. Never I see movies

0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.960
<v Speaker 3>with arm dealers on TV, but hold on from the

0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:48.720
<v Speaker 3>movie to myself. Going to talk about those things was

0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:51.760
<v Speaker 3>a big, big challenge, and I have to learn.

0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:52.240
<v Speaker 8>I have to.

0:24:53.960 --> 0:24:57.159
<v Speaker 3>Create a mindset. Okay, I'm going there for say, but

0:24:57.960 --> 0:24:58.960
<v Speaker 3>I'm gonna die.

0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:03.560
<v Speaker 2>I was happy we came to New York because Flavio

0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>had been uncertain about continuing to cooperate with me. It's

0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:12.199
<v Speaker 2>not that Flavio didn't want a story told suddenly. It

0:25:12.320 --> 0:25:15.960
<v Speaker 2>was just that his life had become so uncertain once

0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:18.480
<v Speaker 2>he got to the halfway House that he wasn't sure

0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:23.320
<v Speaker 2>which way was up and which I was down? Could

0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:28.439
<v Speaker 2>my telling a story just make things worse? So we

0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 2>traveled here to talk through his concerns. We walked to

0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:37.760
<v Speaker 2>a sushi restaurant. Flavio's choice sushi reminds him of the

0:25:37.800 --> 0:25:41.399
<v Speaker 2>affluent life he once had in Europe. He asked us

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:45.240
<v Speaker 2>not to record during our meal, and Flavio lays out

0:25:45.240 --> 0:25:49.520
<v Speaker 2>his concerns. Flavio says that because he lives in a

0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:52.560
<v Speaker 2>halfway House, he has limited control over his day to

0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>day life, and he also feels like he's losing control

0:25:56.520 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>of his story because I, as the journal list, have

0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:05.480
<v Speaker 2>taken control of it. But I think more than anything,

0:26:06.640 --> 0:26:09.919
<v Speaker 2>Flavio just wants someone to talk to about his feelings

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>of uncertainty in life. Bringing me into this mess doing

0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:18.400
<v Speaker 2>all these interviews just came to represent another thing.

0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:20.840
<v Speaker 7>Flavio lost control over.

0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:26.320
<v Speaker 2>In the end, Flavio agrees to sit down for our

0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:31.000
<v Speaker 2>first recorded interview face to face. We have limited time

0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:35.200
<v Speaker 2>because Flavio is halfway house has a curfew. His room

0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:38.159
<v Speaker 2>isn't much, but unless he wants to return to prison,

0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:40.680
<v Speaker 2>he has to get back before curfew.

0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:42.359
<v Speaker 9>I live in a room with no window.

0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:44.800
<v Speaker 3>It is a window and is a wall that much

0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:47.240
<v Speaker 3>distance between my window and the world. I'm on the

0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:50.560
<v Speaker 3>second floor. This sky is somewhere or no. I don't

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:51.840
<v Speaker 3>see light. I don't see nothing.

0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:54.919
<v Speaker 2>About an hour and a half into our interview, I

0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:57.320
<v Speaker 2>look at the time. I'd like to keep talking about

0:26:57.400 --> 0:27:02.160
<v Speaker 2>anyone whose six point thirty you need to go on time?

0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Let me see what Flavio pulls out his phone. It's

0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.440
<v Speaker 2>an enormous thing with a screen that folds in half

0:27:10.680 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 2>like a book. I'd never seen someone use such an

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 2>unwieldy phone.

0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:17.640
<v Speaker 7>That's a cool phone. So it flips, it flips out

0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 7>to create like a large screen.

0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:20.800
<v Speaker 3>Has one over here?

0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Is it drain battery quickly or is it the batteries?

0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:27.280
<v Speaker 3>Okad right now you ask me like this. I want

0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:30.040
<v Speaker 3>to drive a Ferrari. How many miles per gallow I

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:30.440
<v Speaker 3>can make.

0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:38.280
<v Speaker 7>It's a very good point driving.

0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:41.920
<v Speaker 3>You don't care about yes, my list, Let's be honest.

0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:47.560
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, is it?

0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:49.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean we can always if you if you're running late,

0:27:49.600 --> 0:27:50.560
<v Speaker 2>we could get a car for you.

0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:52.719
<v Speaker 7>Did that get you there faster? Or is that slower

0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:53.480
<v Speaker 7>at this time of day?

0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:55.480
<v Speaker 3>No, it's not a.

0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.920
<v Speaker 7>Flavio and I both look up the travel time.

0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:01.320
<v Speaker 3>It looks like it's about.

0:28:01.200 --> 0:28:02.359
<v Speaker 7>Forty minute drive.

0:28:03.080 --> 0:28:06.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and uh we do a train, I make sixty

0:28:06.880 --> 0:28:09.680
<v Speaker 3>the same thing, the same thing. Okay, I'm going to

0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:15.679
<v Speaker 3>take the train. I can spend five six four minutes.

0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:24.159
<v Speaker 2>Flavio's scheduled for release from the Halfway House in the

0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:28.119
<v Speaker 2>summer of twenty twenty three. He'll have to stick around

0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:31.000
<v Speaker 2>the US for at least another year to complete his

0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:34.760
<v Speaker 2>term of probation. If Lavio can't find a place to live,

0:28:35.440 --> 0:28:37.720
<v Speaker 2>he'll be forced to move into a homeless shelter in

0:28:37.720 --> 0:28:41.600
<v Speaker 2>New York in order to establish an address for his

0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:47.920
<v Speaker 2>probation record, and that may be the likely scenario. Being

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:53.200
<v Speaker 2>convicted on terrorism related charges, it's one of the worst

0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:54.440
<v Speaker 2>labels to have.

0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:01.040
<v Speaker 7>Flavio can't get rid of it.

0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.480
<v Speaker 3>This is this is me. I'm afraid, I'm scared to leave.

0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:07.840
<v Speaker 3>I don't know a place to go. And if this

0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:10.240
<v Speaker 3>is this is what I'm struggling day, this is sometimes

0:29:10.240 --> 0:29:12.320
<v Speaker 3>when you call me, I don't feel to talk and

0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:16.400
<v Speaker 3>I don't feel And like I said, I understand your work.

0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:19.280
<v Speaker 3>I understand what you try to do, but what I'm

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.760
<v Speaker 3>gonna do myself, I have questions, which doesn't let me

0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:23.280
<v Speaker 3>to sleep.

0:29:24.480 --> 0:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Flavio is hoping that maybe when it's halfway house term ends,

0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:32.400
<v Speaker 2>he can find someone who needs a caretaker, an elderly

0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:35.720
<v Speaker 2>or disabled person who could offer a room in exchange

0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:44.720
<v Speaker 2>for assistance, cooking, cleaning, running errands, something anything to keep

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:52.120
<v Speaker 2>him out of a homeless shelter. By now, Flavio admits

0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:57.320
<v Speaker 2>he's learned his lesson helping the US government, the FBI,

0:29:57.800 --> 0:30:03.960
<v Speaker 2>the CIA, or maybe another agency that's no longer a

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 2>hobby for Flavio Georgescu.

0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 3>Next time see something, turn your head, don't say nothing.

0:30:10.920 --> 0:30:14.120
<v Speaker 3>Just keep walking, because it was not fine. Ten years

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:15.560
<v Speaker 3>in prison was not a joke.

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:28.920
<v Speaker 2>See something, say nothing. That's Flavio's new motto. The tragedy

0:30:28.960 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 2>of Flavio's story, in my view, is rooted in its futility.

0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:41.160
<v Speaker 2>Flavio lost everything and for what his case became nothing

0:30:41.200 --> 0:30:45.840
<v Speaker 2>more than the very strange story you've heard here, involving

0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:51.400
<v Speaker 2>three government agencies, the CIA, the DEA, and the FBI.

0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:57.760
<v Speaker 2>When the DEA arrested Flavio, Christian and Massimo, agents could

0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:00.840
<v Speaker 2>have used them to go after other people, such as

0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the guys in Germany who helped obtain the end user

0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:06.680
<v Speaker 2>certificate or the oligarch in Bulgaria who was willing to

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:11.040
<v Speaker 2>sell the weapons, but federal agents didn't do that work.

0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:17.560
<v Speaker 2>They just charged the lower level guys, Flavio, Christian and Massimo.

0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:21.120
<v Speaker 2>And when Flavio got his hands on recordings of his

0:31:21.200 --> 0:31:24.760
<v Speaker 2>calls to the CIA, recordings that raised doubts about the

0:31:24.760 --> 0:31:28.920
<v Speaker 2>government's claim that Flavio was a real armsbroker, the Justice

0:31:28.920 --> 0:31:33.240
<v Speaker 2>Department cut deals with Christian and Massimo to secure Flavio's conviction.

0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:40.000
<v Speaker 2>In the end, the DEA and the Justice Department got

0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:46.760
<v Speaker 2>what they wanted, another stat another conviction, another case made,

0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:51.720
<v Speaker 2>and then with Flavio sent to prison, agents and prosecutors

0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:54.480
<v Speaker 2>just moved on to the next case.

0:31:55.360 --> 0:32:01.400
<v Speaker 5>And the only mental justification I have is that he

0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:03.800
<v Speaker 5>knew or should have known the rules.

0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:08.720
<v Speaker 2>Mark Pinto, Flavio's former FBI handler thinks he could have

0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>helped Flavio, maybe even prevented him from going to prison,

0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:19.800
<v Speaker 2>but he didn't. Mark is haunted by that. But at

0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the same time he thinks Flavio really should have known better.

0:32:26.760 --> 0:32:29.520
<v Speaker 5>And you can't trust the bad guys even if you're

0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:31.440
<v Speaker 5>a bad guy because of role on you and say

0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:36.480
<v Speaker 5>you did things you didn't and the bad guys will

0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:40.719
<v Speaker 5>do that. And if it's benefiting of a government organization,

0:32:41.920 --> 0:32:45.800
<v Speaker 5>they'll do it. And if you put your complete faith

0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:51.800
<v Speaker 5>and trust in a government organization with the expectation that

0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 5>it's gonna meet what your expectations are, your high expectations,

0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.880
<v Speaker 5>I mean more America, you have the highest ideals we do.

0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:07.720
<v Speaker 5>It doesn't always work that way. The reality is all

0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:11.200
<v Speaker 5>this stuff is stat driven. How many prosecutions you get,

0:33:11.240 --> 0:33:14.959
<v Speaker 5>how many people get arrested, how many search warrants? And

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:18.200
<v Speaker 5>I can guarantee you one thing. Whoever the case agent

0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:21.400
<v Speaker 5>on that case was easily got a promotion.

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Mark studies theology now in his retirement. In Judeo Christian thought,

0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 2>there's the idea that we are rewarded for our good deeds.

0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:40.400
<v Speaker 2>In more recent history, we developed a cynical twist on

0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:47.760
<v Speaker 2>that idea, no good deed goes unpunished, and that, in

0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Mark's view, seems to sum up what happened to Flavio.

0:33:53.720 --> 0:33:58.720
<v Speaker 5>As distasteful as as it is. Things happen. That's I mean,

0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:05.400
<v Speaker 5>that sounds so basic. Things happen, but it's an unfortunate

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:09.880
<v Speaker 5>turn of events. I'm not making line of it because

0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:14.200
<v Speaker 5>it's not fair, but life isn't fair, and he should

0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:16.040
<v Speaker 5>have known.

0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:23.080
<v Speaker 2>What Flavio couldn't have known because he believed too much

0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:28.040
<v Speaker 2>in the idea of America, was that sometimes the people

0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:32.320
<v Speaker 2>who claim to be the good guys desperately need foils.

0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:39.280
<v Speaker 2>They desperately need bad guys, so much so that they'll

0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:45.759
<v Speaker 2>create them. Even out of Flavio Georgescu.

0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:50.960
<v Speaker 5>His problem was he was too ideal. He believed he's

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:54.759
<v Speaker 5>a true believer, and he he paid dearly for that

0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 5>dose of reality. So that's it. I wish we could

0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 5>have ended up on a higher note.

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:24.680
<v Speaker 2>This was up in arms season two of Alphabet Boys.

0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:32.040
<v Speaker 2>Alphabet Boys is a production of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts.

0:35:32.360 --> 0:35:36.480
<v Speaker 2>It's reported, written and hosted by me. Trevor Aronson, Ben

0:35:36.560 --> 0:35:40.279
<v Speaker 2>Adare and I are the executive producers. Colin McNulty is

0:35:40.280 --> 0:35:45.120
<v Speaker 2>our showrunner. The producer is Nicole McNulty. Original composition by

0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Alex mckinnis, sound design by Tyler Hill. The show is

0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:52.760
<v Speaker 2>mixed by Victoria Schifflett. Eleanor Knight is our production assistant

0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:57.080
<v Speaker 2>and researcher Sam Pearson designed our cover art. Executive producers

0:35:57.080 --> 0:36:01.080
<v Speaker 2>for iHeart Podcasts are Nick Stump, Bethan Mcalousa, and Lindsay Hoffmann.

0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:04.040
<v Speaker 2>For more information about this series or to drop us

0:36:04.040 --> 0:36:07.480
<v Speaker 2>a tip, head to our website, Alphabet Boys dot xyz.

0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:11.320
<v Speaker 2>You can contact me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aronson.

0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:16.359
<v Speaker 2>The show's instagram is Alphabetboys dot pod. If you're enjoying

0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:20.120
<v Speaker 2>Alphabet Boys, tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.120
<v Speaker 2>are the best recommendations. And if you want to see

0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:26.880
<v Speaker 2>an illegal arms deal from the inside again, it's Alphabet

0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Boys dot xyz. You'll find undercover recordings and documents related

0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:34.080
<v Speaker 2>to Flavio's case. Finally, you can help us ride the

0:36:34.080 --> 0:36:36.759
<v Speaker 2>algorithms by leaving a rating or a review on your

0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:39.640
<v Speaker 2>favorite podcast app that helps other people find us.

0:36:40.280 --> 0:36:42.560
<v Speaker 7>And finally, thanks so much for listening.