Speaker 1: Multimillionaire businessman Mansar al Kassar has been tied to three
Speaker 1: decades of international crime, arms deals, and terror attacks.
Speaker 2: This is from a twenty ten National Geographic documentary titled
Speaker 2: Inside the DEA, which offered an unabashedly flattering portrayal of
Speaker 2: the Drug Enforcement Administration and its so called narco terrorism stings.
Speaker 3: Kassar is the quintessential bond bad guy helved.
Speaker 2: The film focused on the DEA's investigation of Mansar al Kassar,
Speaker 2: an arms dealer who became known as the Prince of
Speaker 2: Marbea for the mansion he owned in southern Spain. The
Speaker 2: DEA tricked Kassar into thinking he was selling arms to
Speaker 2: you guessed it, the FARC. As the War on terror
Speaker 2: fully eclipsed the War on drugs, narco terrorism stings allowed
Speaker 2: the DEA to stay relevant in the public eye and
Speaker 2: worthy of congressional funding. Following this assist from National Geographic,
Speaker 2: the DEA turned to CBS's Sixty Minutes for an in
Speaker 2: depth look at another case, this one involving a Russian
Speaker 2: arms dealer named Victor Boot.
Speaker 4: Boot has been protected by powerful friends and long considered
Speaker 4: untouchable by law enforcement, but three years ago, the DEA
Speaker 4: devised a bold undercover operation to capture him.
Speaker 2: Nicknamed the Merchant of Death, Boot was the inspiration for
Speaker 2: the two thousand and five movie Lord of War starring
Speaker 2: Nicholas Cage.
Speaker 3: How many close your coupes do you have?
Speaker 5: Whatever we say it is because no one else will
Speaker 5: know the difference.
Speaker 2: Three years after that movie's release, the DEA arrested Boot
Speaker 2: in Thailand, where he'd agreed to sell weapons to FARK agents,
Speaker 2: who were of course paid informants. Boot spent more than
Speaker 2: a decade in a US prison, but in December twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two he was released.
Speaker 6: This has been a negotiations that had been going at
Speaker 6: the highest levels, but had been happening behind closed doors.
Speaker 2: Boot was one half of a prisoner swap with Russia
Speaker 2: for WNBA star Britney Griner.
Speaker 6: It is unclear at this point who the White House
Speaker 6: is going to swap for. We actually just have that in.
Speaker 6: This is Victor Boot, the convicted Russian arms dealer. This
Speaker 6: is a huge deal. It is breaking right now.
Speaker 2: The DEA would like you to focus on Gasar and Boot.
Speaker 2: James Bond bad guys, as federal agents describe them, but
Speaker 2: they are exceptions, Most people caught up in dea narco
Speaker 2: terrorism stings are like Flavio Georgescu, no serious criminal connections.
Speaker 2: That is, yes, until well paid informants pretending to be
Speaker 2: FARC members showed up. I'm Trevor Aronson from Western Sound
Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcast. This is Alphabet Boys, episode ten, See Something,
Speaker 2: Say Nothing?
Speaker 7: Hi, Flavia?
Speaker 3: Hey, how are you?
Speaker 2: It's July twenty twenty two, and Flavio is in New York.
Speaker 2: He's out of prison after serving nearly eight years, and
Speaker 2: he's been transferred to a halfway house in a rough
Speaker 2: area of the Bronx.
Speaker 3: How are you doing a little bit hard?
Speaker 8: It was not that is like I always think.
Speaker 7: About what's that.
Speaker 2: It hasn't been easy transitioning to the halfway house?
Speaker 9: Is that what you mean?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And that environment changed me a little bit. Right now,
Speaker 3: I just see it because over there was like a
Speaker 3: time capsule. But right now, like, okay, I tried to
Speaker 3: go outside in the you know when I see people
Speaker 3: running around and screaming, and that was not bo I'm
Speaker 3: gonna I'm gonna make it.
Speaker 2: Flavio could have received a life sentence following his conviction
Speaker 2: a trial, but he didn't. The judge gave him ten years,
Speaker 2: which will end up being about eight years in prison,
Speaker 2: a year and a half way house in another year
Speaker 2: on probation. It's a life altering sentence, no doubt. It
Speaker 2: means Flavio spends his entire forties behind bars, but it's
Speaker 2: not exactly the kind of sentence you'd expect a narco
Speaker 2: terrorist to receive, and that's really the point. Flavio, like
Speaker 2: most caught in DEA narco terrorism stings, is a terrorist,
Speaker 2: a drug runner, or an arms dealer, and he's certainly
Speaker 2: not a narco terrorist. These days, most of the people
Speaker 2: prosecuted as part of DEA narco terrorism stings are free,
Speaker 2: having served sentences like Flavia's, or in some cases, even
Speaker 2: less time. They all just had the misfortune of getting
Speaker 2: swept up in a nearly two decade hustle that the
Speaker 2: DEA ran using unsuspecting people around the world to gin
Speaker 2: up so called narco terrorism cases and secure millions of
Speaker 2: dollars in funding every year. If you're inclined to believe
Speaker 2: Flavio's story that he called the CIA to bust Wan,
Speaker 2: a FARK representative who was secretly a DEA informant, The
Speaker 2: story is altogether tragic, the case of a man who
Speaker 2: sought to help the US government only to be prosecuted
Speaker 2: and imprisoned by the US government, and the personal costs
Speaker 2: of this for Flavio have been devastating.
Speaker 8: I don't have a small modil of water.
Speaker 3: Still do one another one.
Speaker 2: There's this piece of tape from the DEA's undercover sting
Speaker 2: I find haunting now, so many years after it was recorded.
Speaker 2: It really has nothing to do with the DEA's case.
Speaker 2: It's just small talk between Flavio and Wan. But this
Speaker 2: small talk seems appalling to me in hindsight. Flavio and
Speaker 2: Wan are at the area in Bucharest, Romania. This is
Speaker 2: the first time they meet.
Speaker 8: How many kids you have? I don't have kids kids.
Speaker 2: Wan tells Flavio that he has seven children, and he
Speaker 2: asks Flavio if he has any kids.
Speaker 3: I traveled too much.
Speaker 4: And I have time for the kids.
Speaker 3: You will, though, and find your way.
Speaker 2: I travel too much, Flavio says, I haven't had time
Speaker 2: for kids. Wan tells him you will.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you'll have to, because why is it going to
Speaker 6: be a loan loan all age by yourself.
Speaker 2: Flavio had only been married to his wife Andre for
Speaker 2: a few years when the DEA arrested him in Montenegro.
Speaker 2: He and Andre had big plans like most couples do,
Speaker 2: but after Flavio's arrest, Andra moved to New York and
Speaker 2: liquidated everything they owned to pay for his criminal defense,
Speaker 2: which of course ended with Flavio being sentenced to prison.
Speaker 2: Andra stayed in New York, building a new life for
Speaker 2: herself and supporting Flavia in prison. She felt a duty
Speaker 2: as his wife to be there for him, but soon
Speaker 2: after Flavio arrived at the halfway House, Andre filed for divorce.
Speaker 2: She'd helped him through prison, and now with Flavio out,
Speaker 2: she's done.
Speaker 9: Andre hates me because I destroy her life. I took
Speaker 9: the best years from her life. Intend to to have
Speaker 9: children together, Intend to have a normal family myself. I
Speaker 9: believe on you. I believe on this on Dao, which
Speaker 9: I took to protect and defend his nation. And I said, man,
Speaker 9: this is my chance right now, this is what I'm
Speaker 9: gonna do with this investigation. We're gonna be so crazy,
Speaker 9: will be so big, show the armless laundry and everything
Speaker 9: would be amazing. And look at me. I'm I'm I've
Speaker 9: you know, sometimes I said, I don't know. I I asked,
Speaker 9: got to keep me healthy. But sometimes when I wake
Speaker 9: up in the morning, I feel like and see this room,
Speaker 9: I feel like, you know what. I was better not
Speaker 9: to wake up and just go to sleep and go
Speaker 9: to sleep forever. And that's it.
Speaker 3: Because Andre.
Speaker 2: Andre introduced me years ago to Flavio and his case,
Speaker 2: I wanted Andre's voice to be part of this story.
Speaker 2: I really tried to make that happen. One afternoon, she
Speaker 2: and I met at a coffee shop in Manhattan to talk.
Speaker 2: I agreed not to record our conversation. Andre told me
Speaker 2: that she's never doubted that Flavio was working for the CIA,
Speaker 2: or at the very least that Flavio thought he was
Speaker 2: working for the CIA. But she told me that doesn't
Speaker 2: make her any less angry about what happened. In Andre's view,
Speaker 2: even if Flavio had been working for the US government,
Speaker 2: he'd put her in there marriage second behind whatever sort
Speaker 2: of operation he was running against Juan and the other Colombians.
Speaker 2: Flavio didn't need to get involved in any of this,
Speaker 2: as Andra sees it, and he should have been thinking
Speaker 2: about her and the risks involved in what he was doing,
Speaker 2: and that's what she's unable to forgive. So now with
Speaker 2: Flavio in a halfway house and the divorce finalized, Andre
Speaker 2: wants to move on with her life. No Flavio, no
Speaker 2: talk about the CIA calls, and no interview with me.
Speaker 2: And honestly, I get it. I can understand where she's
Speaker 2: coming from. So I never pressured Andre again, do you.
Speaker 9: I don't know? It's so it's so much. Andre hates me.
Speaker 9: Do you understand that?
Speaker 2: I tell Flavio that I think losing Andre is the
Speaker 2: highest price he paid for all this.
Speaker 7: He agrees.
Speaker 9: She hates me for what I did to her. I
Speaker 9: put her to so much pain and to so much
Speaker 9: soft and humiliate her and destroy her life for nothing.
Speaker 8: How many kids you have?
Speaker 3: I don't have kids, And.
Speaker 2: I guess this is why I find that moment of
Speaker 2: small talk between Flavio and Wan so haunting.
Speaker 3: I travel too much. I didn't have time for kids.
Speaker 8: You will, though, and find your way.
Speaker 2: He's telling Flavio that he should have children. You don't
Speaker 2: want to die old and alone, one says, But secretly
Speaker 2: one knows that will likely be the consequence of what
Speaker 2: he's doing. He knows He's going to send Flavio to prison,
Speaker 2: and he knows that Flavio as a result, may very
Speaker 2: well die old and alone.
Speaker 3: And when I'm gonna die, who are gonna be next
Speaker 3: to me? In the last moment of my life? I
Speaker 3: lost my wife, I lost my father, I lost it,
Speaker 3: not everything, BA what I'm gonna do right now?
Speaker 9: Like travor is, I'm I'm like I said, I'm at
Speaker 9: this point. I feel so scared.
Speaker 5: More.
Speaker 2: After the break, Massimo Romagnoli and Christian Ventilla, Flavio's two
Speaker 2: colleagues and the weapons deal with Wan, received leniency in
Speaker 2: their sentencing because they agreed to plete guilty and testify
Speaker 2: against Flavio. Massimo was released in prison in September twenty seventeen,
Speaker 2: and Christian roughly a year later. They're now back in Europe.
Speaker 2: Christian is quiet about his new life, but Massimo, that's
Speaker 2: another story.
Speaker 5: Romagnol delid.
Speaker 8: Important.
Speaker 2: Massimo is back in the public eye in a big way,
Speaker 2: as if he had never been convicted of participating in
Speaker 2: an arms deal to send weapons to terrorists. You can
Speaker 2: find him talking about politics on Italian.
Speaker 7: TV toms Go.
Speaker 2: Massimo is at exclusive events, speaking on panels with public
Speaker 2: officials and corporate executives.
Speaker 6: Romaannolis the progress of consulting.
Speaker 3: In Antanto.
Speaker 2: Vitore, and Massimo posts a lot of videos of himself
Speaker 2: dressed to the nines and traveling first class around Europe.
Speaker 8: Bimbi.
Speaker 2: Massimo has not only crafted an image for himself as
Speaker 2: a connected guy, but also as a hard worker. He
Speaker 2: declares in one video that he'll work until he's one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years old if God allows. One thing
Speaker 2: Massimo has worked hard at is spinning his conviction and imprisonment.
Speaker 2: On a recent resume, he lists his employment from twenty
Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty seventeen, the time he was incarcerated, as
Speaker 2: a teacher at federal detention facilities. Massimo also self published
Speaker 2: a book written in Italian titled An Innocent Trapped. In it,
Speaker 2: Massimo claims that he's innocent of all the charges resulting
Speaker 2: from quote the conspiracy of the Romanians Flavio Georgescu and
Speaker 2: Christian Ventilla, of which I was the victim.
Speaker 10: Being innocent to his da injurious because you have no alibis,
Speaker 10: someone wrote, and I actually had the feeling of not
Speaker 10: being able to acconerate myself with any proof and with
Speaker 10: any concrete argument.
Speaker 2: This is a translated passage from Masimo's book.
Speaker 10: Because when one is truly innocent, only the candor and
Speaker 10: clarity of one's confession are the true proof, the true,
Speaker 10: infallible evidence of the loathfulness of one's sections.
Speaker 2: And Massimo's campaign to rehabilitate his image seems to have worked.
Speaker 2: He's now running a lobbying and consulting firm in Brussels,
Speaker 2: and he's the president of the Freedom Movement, a political
Speaker 2: organization that promotes Italian workers, culture and products throughout Europe. Massimo,
Speaker 2: of course, refused to do an interview. Here's what he
Speaker 2: emailed to me, his words, again voiced by an actor.
Speaker 10: I don't want to risk to have any problem or
Speaker 10: get mixed up with mister Flavia. He already destroyed my
Speaker 10: life one time and it's enough, so please respect my will.
Speaker 2: When Massimo and Christian both agreed to testify against Flavio,
Speaker 2: they created something of a partnership, a partnership that apparently
Speaker 2: hasn't ended. Like Massimo, Christian has publicly downplayed his time
Speaker 2: in prison on his LinkedIn profile. Christian List's employment from
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen to twenty eighteen, the period he was incarcerated
Speaker 2: as a quote external partner at a US government agency.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's not inaccurate, I guess, but it's
Speaker 2: definitely a strange way to say you are a federal inmate. Christian,
Speaker 2: also on LinkedIn, lists himself as a consultant to Massimo's
Speaker 2: firm at business meetings. I suspect they don't advertise that
Speaker 2: they were introduced by a mister Flavio Georgescu, international arms trafficker.
Speaker 1: I am a hero. The Americans made me a hero,
Speaker 1: so I don't have to clean my name.
Speaker 2: Christian, like Massimo, refused to be interviewed. Here's what he
Speaker 2: wrote to me.
Speaker 1: This is the last conversation with you. Any other message
Speaker 1: from you, I will take it as harassment.
Speaker 2: What Christian appears to mean, nearest I can tell, is
Speaker 2: that he's a hero because he testified against Flavio. So yeah,
Speaker 2: Massimo and Christian heroes who refuse to be interviewed about
Speaker 2: their apparent acts of heroism. I don't think Massimo and
Speaker 2: Christian are villains. They're just patsies like Flavio, and they
Speaker 2: flipped to save themselves at various times during our conversations.
Speaker 2: Flavio has expressed real anxiety about participating in the story,
Speaker 2: has even considered backing out entirely.
Speaker 8: Do you imagine what's happened with my leg right now?
Speaker 8: Do you know I don't have a place to go?
Speaker 8: Do you know I'm afraid when I get off from
Speaker 8: the Southway, so I look like I'm parano, I'm looking
Speaker 8: twenty directions and everywhere, just to you know, be sure
Speaker 8: I'm not gonna get killed.
Speaker 2: Flavio says he's concerned about Massimo and Christian and what
Speaker 2: they might do if they hear all this. We're having
Speaker 2: this conversation by phone. Flavio isn't his halfway house in
Speaker 2: New York. He's been there a few months now.
Speaker 8: Massimo has a lot of money, a lot of power.
Speaker 8: He hates me because of me. He lost his family,
Speaker 8: He lost his three kids, which one of so little
Speaker 8: at that time, was like probably four or five years old,
Speaker 8: and the wife she divorced him. And if he has
Speaker 8: the chance to put me on the ground, he's gonna
Speaker 8: kill me with no problems, not him directed, not him
Speaker 8: directly in Romania, extremely powerful and extremely connected and everywhere.
Speaker 2: Flavio worries about extreme, if highly unlikely scenarios like those,
Speaker 2: because he doesn't know what he will do with his life.
Speaker 2: He's got nothing now, no wife, no home, no money,
Speaker 2: and he doesn't know if you should stay in the
Speaker 2: States or return to Europe.
Speaker 8: Please understand me to travel about what I'm gonna do
Speaker 8: in my life. I'm fifty years old. What I was
Speaker 8: supposed to do just outside? Did you show myself in
Speaker 8: the head just because I was an idiot, just because
Speaker 8: I was believing in.
Speaker 9: Your country, just because I believe on.
Speaker 8: An oak which I took in front of your nation.
Speaker 2: Making problems worse is the fact that Flavio's attempts to
Speaker 2: find a job while living in the halfway House have
Speaker 2: been discouraging. Given his conviction on terrorism related charges, Employers
Speaker 2: automatically assume he's some sort of super villain.
Speaker 3: I tried to get a job a traveler. I call
Speaker 3: probably twenty companies. She said, what was the charges? What
Speaker 3: did the government charge you with? And when I said
Speaker 3: the charges, she said, surely, see you have boss and
Speaker 3: she hang up the phone. At least ten people they
Speaker 3: cursed me out so bad that means it's no way
Speaker 3: for me to have a chance to find the job.
Speaker 9: When I'm sucking this halfway.
Speaker 2: House Flavio situation. It's bleak. There's an absurdity to it
Speaker 2: as well. The crime Flavia was convicted of providing material
Speaker 2: support to terrorists wouldn't hold up if he committed it today.
Speaker 2: That's because the supposed terrorist that Flavio supported, the FARC,
Speaker 2: aren't actually terrorists any longer, at least not according to
Speaker 2: the US government. In November twenty twenty one, the Biden
Speaker 2: administration removed FARC from the State Department's list of Foreign
Speaker 2: Terrorist groups in order to encourage peace between the Colombian
Speaker 2: government and the rebels. The DEA's narco terrorism stings they
Speaker 2: are pretty much.
Speaker 7: Over now as a result.
Speaker 2: Guys like Wan they can't pull off these cases now
Speaker 2: that they can no longer pretend to be FARK agents.
Speaker 2: This whole story is about pretending. Juan was pretending to
Speaker 2: be a FARK guy. Juan's colleagues were pretending to be
Speaker 2: Colombian revolutionaries. Flavia was pretending to be an arms dealer,
Speaker 2: you know who. Throughout the deal wasn't pretending Christian and
Speaker 2: Massimo unlike Flavio, they didn't have a cover story. They
Speaker 2: didn't call the CIA, so what they were doing helping
Speaker 2: Flavio broke her that arms deal for wand there's no
Speaker 2: indication that they were doing anything but that. And yet
Speaker 2: the prison sentences they received were far less than what
Speaker 2: Flavio received because the government needed their testimony to convict Flavio.
Speaker 7: Is that fair?
Speaker 2: Christian and Massimo they're back in Europe living a good life.
Speaker 2: Flavio he's living in a halfway house in New York.
Speaker 2: I've been talking over the phone with Flavio for several years,
Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of calls. I've often felt like his therapist,
Speaker 2: but I've never met him in person. But finally Flavio
Speaker 2: and I have a chance to meet, So let's go
Speaker 2: to New York.
Speaker 7: That's after the break.
Speaker 3: That's why we're here.
Speaker 2: I'm in a hotel room in New York with Flavio.
Speaker 2: My colleague Eleanor Knight, who's helping me with production and research,
Speaker 2: is with us.
Speaker 3: And if I was taking some money, what you can say, oh,
Speaker 3: Flavio is honest guy. Why he took a little bit
Speaker 3: of money because he was having to pay his rent.
Speaker 8: I'm not gonna work like that.
Speaker 2: I start my recorder as Flavio being Flavio is midway
Speaker 2: through a monologue. He's talking to Eleanor, whom he just
Speaker 2: met a couple of hours ago, explaining from his perspective
Speaker 2: why he's been talking to me on the phone these
Speaker 2: past few years.
Speaker 3: That's why he's okay. But I tried to explain to
Speaker 3: him a long time ago. You know, this is your
Speaker 3: chance to prove they are wrong, they do wrong things.
Speaker 3: This is this is my point of view right now.
Speaker 2: Flavio tells Eleanor that his case is my chance to
Speaker 2: prove a point that aggressive sting operations like the one
Speaker 2: that targeted him can result in the prosecution of people
Speaker 2: who are innocent, people who, to use Flavio's words, don't
Speaker 2: bite the bait.
Speaker 3: We cannot send people to instigate people to commit crime.
Speaker 3: To teach them, you let them know things which some
Speaker 3: people they don't know to do it. They don't know
Speaker 3: how to put those things together. A crime is like
Speaker 3: a puzzle. Myself never selling guns. Never I see movies
Speaker 3: with arm dealers on TV, but hold on from the
Speaker 3: movie to myself. Going to talk about those things was
Speaker 3: a big, big challenge, and I have to learn.
Speaker 8: I have to.
Speaker 3: Create a mindset. Okay, I'm going there for say, but
Speaker 3: I'm gonna die.
Speaker 2: I was happy we came to New York because Flavio
Speaker 2: had been uncertain about continuing to cooperate with me. It's
Speaker 2: not that Flavio didn't want a story told suddenly. It
Speaker 2: was just that his life had become so uncertain once
Speaker 2: he got to the halfway House that he wasn't sure
Speaker 2: which way was up and which I was down? Could
Speaker 2: my telling a story just make things worse? So we
Speaker 2: traveled here to talk through his concerns. We walked to
Speaker 2: a sushi restaurant. Flavio's choice sushi reminds him of the
Speaker 2: affluent life he once had in Europe. He asked us
Speaker 2: not to record during our meal, and Flavio lays out
Speaker 2: his concerns. Flavio says that because he lives in a
Speaker 2: halfway House, he has limited control over his day to
Speaker 2: day life, and he also feels like he's losing control
Speaker 2: of his story because I, as the journal list, have
Speaker 2: taken control of it. But I think more than anything,
Speaker 2: Flavio just wants someone to talk to about his feelings
Speaker 2: of uncertainty in life. Bringing me into this mess doing
Speaker 2: all these interviews just came to represent another thing.
Speaker 7: Flavio lost control over.
Speaker 2: In the end, Flavio agrees to sit down for our
Speaker 2: first recorded interview face to face. We have limited time
Speaker 2: because Flavio is halfway house has a curfew. His room
Speaker 2: isn't much, but unless he wants to return to prison,
Speaker 2: he has to get back before curfew.
Speaker 9: I live in a room with no window.
Speaker 3: It is a window and is a wall that much
Speaker 3: distance between my window and the world. I'm on the
Speaker 3: second floor. This sky is somewhere or no. I don't
Speaker 3: see light. I don't see nothing.
Speaker 2: About an hour and a half into our interview, I
Speaker 2: look at the time. I'd like to keep talking about
Speaker 2: anyone whose six point thirty you need to go on time?
Speaker 2: Let me see what Flavio pulls out his phone. It's
Speaker 2: an enormous thing with a screen that folds in half
Speaker 2: like a book. I'd never seen someone use such an
Speaker 2: unwieldy phone.
Speaker 7: That's a cool phone. So it flips, it flips out
Speaker 7: to create like a large screen.
Speaker 3: Has one over here?
Speaker 2: Is it drain battery quickly or is it the batteries?
Speaker 3: Okad right now you ask me like this. I want
Speaker 3: to drive a Ferrari. How many miles per gallow I
Speaker 3: can make.
Speaker 7: It's a very good point driving.
Speaker 3: You don't care about yes, my list, Let's be honest.
Speaker 8: Yeah, is it?
Speaker 2: I mean we can always if you if you're running late,
Speaker 2: we could get a car for you.
Speaker 7: Did that get you there faster? Or is that slower
Speaker 7: at this time of day?
Speaker 3: No, it's not a.
Speaker 7: Flavio and I both look up the travel time.
Speaker 3: It looks like it's about.
Speaker 7: Forty minute drive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh we do a train, I make sixty
Speaker 3: the same thing, the same thing. Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 3: take the train. I can spend five six four minutes.
Speaker 2: Flavio's scheduled for release from the Halfway House in the
Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty three. He'll have to stick around
Speaker 2: the US for at least another year to complete his
Speaker 2: term of probation. If Lavio can't find a place to live,
Speaker 2: he'll be forced to move into a homeless shelter in
Speaker 2: New York in order to establish an address for his
Speaker 2: probation record, and that may be the likely scenario. Being
Speaker 2: convicted on terrorism related charges, it's one of the worst
Speaker 2: labels to have.
Speaker 7: Flavio can't get rid of it.
Speaker 3: This is this is me. I'm afraid, I'm scared to leave.
Speaker 3: I don't know a place to go. And if this
Speaker 3: is this is what I'm struggling day, this is sometimes
Speaker 3: when you call me, I don't feel to talk and
Speaker 3: I don't feel And like I said, I understand your work.
Speaker 3: I understand what you try to do, but what I'm
Speaker 3: gonna do myself, I have questions, which doesn't let me
Speaker 3: to sleep.
Speaker 2: Flavio is hoping that maybe when it's halfway house term ends,
Speaker 2: he can find someone who needs a caretaker, an elderly
Speaker 2: or disabled person who could offer a room in exchange
Speaker 2: for assistance, cooking, cleaning, running errands, something anything to keep
Speaker 2: him out of a homeless shelter. By now, Flavio admits
Speaker 2: he's learned his lesson helping the US government, the FBI,
Speaker 2: the CIA, or maybe another agency that's no longer a
Speaker 2: hobby for Flavio Georgescu.
Speaker 3: Next time see something, turn your head, don't say nothing.
Speaker 3: Just keep walking, because it was not fine. Ten years
Speaker 3: in prison was not a joke.
Speaker 2: See something, say nothing. That's Flavio's new motto. The tragedy
Speaker 2: of Flavio's story, in my view, is rooted in its futility.
Speaker 2: Flavio lost everything and for what his case became nothing
Speaker 2: more than the very strange story you've heard here, involving
Speaker 2: three government agencies, the CIA, the DEA, and the FBI.
Speaker 2: When the DEA arrested Flavio, Christian and Massimo, agents could
Speaker 2: have used them to go after other people, such as
Speaker 2: the guys in Germany who helped obtain the end user
Speaker 2: certificate or the oligarch in Bulgaria who was willing to
Speaker 2: sell the weapons, but federal agents didn't do that work.
Speaker 2: They just charged the lower level guys, Flavio, Christian and Massimo.
Speaker 2: And when Flavio got his hands on recordings of his
Speaker 2: calls to the CIA, recordings that raised doubts about the
Speaker 2: government's claim that Flavio was a real armsbroker, the Justice
Speaker 2: Department cut deals with Christian and Massimo to secure Flavio's conviction.
Speaker 2: In the end, the DEA and the Justice Department got
Speaker 2: what they wanted, another stat another conviction, another case made,
Speaker 2: and then with Flavio sent to prison, agents and prosecutors
Speaker 2: just moved on to the next case.
Speaker 5: And the only mental justification I have is that he
Speaker 5: knew or should have known the rules.
Speaker 2: Mark Pinto, Flavio's former FBI handler thinks he could have
Speaker 2: helped Flavio, maybe even prevented him from going to prison,
Speaker 2: but he didn't. Mark is haunted by that. But at
Speaker 2: the same time he thinks Flavio really should have known better.
Speaker 5: And you can't trust the bad guys even if you're
Speaker 5: a bad guy because of role on you and say
Speaker 5: you did things you didn't and the bad guys will
Speaker 5: do that. And if it's benefiting of a government organization,
Speaker 5: they'll do it. And if you put your complete faith
Speaker 5: and trust in a government organization with the expectation that
Speaker 5: it's gonna meet what your expectations are, your high expectations,
Speaker 5: I mean more America, you have the highest ideals we do.
Speaker 5: It doesn't always work that way. The reality is all
Speaker 5: this stuff is stat driven. How many prosecutions you get,
Speaker 5: how many people get arrested, how many search warrants? And
Speaker 5: I can guarantee you one thing. Whoever the case agent
Speaker 5: on that case was easily got a promotion.
Speaker 2: Mark studies theology now in his retirement. In Judeo Christian thought,
Speaker 2: there's the idea that we are rewarded for our good deeds.
Speaker 2: In more recent history, we developed a cynical twist on
Speaker 2: that idea, no good deed goes unpunished, and that, in
Speaker 2: Mark's view, seems to sum up what happened to Flavio.
Speaker 5: As distasteful as as it is. Things happen. That's I mean,
Speaker 5: that sounds so basic. Things happen, but it's an unfortunate
Speaker 5: turn of events. I'm not making line of it because
Speaker 5: it's not fair, but life isn't fair, and he should
Speaker 5: have known.
Speaker 2: What Flavio couldn't have known because he believed too much
Speaker 2: in the idea of America, was that sometimes the people
Speaker 2: who claim to be the good guys desperately need foils.
Speaker 2: They desperately need bad guys, so much so that they'll
Speaker 2: create them. Even out of Flavio Georgescu.
Speaker 5: His problem was he was too ideal. He believed he's
Speaker 5: a true believer, and he he paid dearly for that
Speaker 5: dose of reality. So that's it. I wish we could
Speaker 5: have ended up on a higher note.
Speaker 2: This was up in arms season two of Alphabet Boys.
Speaker 2: Alphabet Boys is a production of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 2: It's reported, written and hosted by me. Trevor Aronson, Ben
Speaker 2: Adare and I are the executive producers. Colin McNulty is
Speaker 2: our showrunner. The producer is Nicole McNulty. Original composition by
Speaker 2: Alex mckinnis, sound design by Tyler Hill. The show is
Speaker 2: mixed by Victoria Schifflett. Eleanor Knight is our production assistant
Speaker 2: and researcher Sam Pearson designed our cover art. Executive producers
Speaker 2: for iHeart Podcasts are Nick Stump, Bethan Mcalousa, and Lindsay Hoffmann.
Speaker 2: For more information about this series or to drop us
Speaker 2: a tip, head to our website, Alphabet Boys dot xyz.
Speaker 2: You can contact me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aronson.
Speaker 2: The show's instagram is Alphabetboys dot pod. If you're enjoying
Speaker 2: Alphabet Boys, tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations
Speaker 2: are the best recommendations. And if you want to see
Speaker 2: an illegal arms deal from the inside again, it's Alphabet
Speaker 2: Boys dot xyz. You'll find undercover recordings and documents related
Speaker 2: to Flavio's case. Finally, you can help us ride the
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Speaker 7: And finally, thanks so much for listening.