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Speaker 1: Multimillionaire businessman Mansar al Kassar has been tied to three

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Speaker 1: decades of international crime, arms deals, and terror attacks.

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Speaker 2: This is from a twenty ten National Geographic documentary titled

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Speaker 2: Inside the DEA, which offered an unabashedly flattering portrayal of

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Speaker 2: the Drug Enforcement Administration and its so called narco terrorism stings.

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Speaker 3: Kassar is the quintessential bond bad guy helved.

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Speaker 2: The film focused on the DEA's investigation of Mansar al Kassar,

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Speaker 2: an arms dealer who became known as the Prince of

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Speaker 2: Marbea for the mansion he owned in southern Spain. The

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Speaker 2: DEA tricked Kassar into thinking he was selling arms to

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Speaker 2: you guessed it, the FARC. As the War on terror

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Speaker 2: fully eclipsed the War on drugs, narco terrorism stings allowed

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Speaker 2: the DEA to stay relevant in the public eye and

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Speaker 2: worthy of congressional funding. Following this assist from National Geographic,

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Speaker 2: the DEA turned to CBS's Sixty Minutes for an in

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Speaker 2: depth look at another case, this one involving a Russian

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Speaker 2: arms dealer named Victor Boot.

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Speaker 4: Boot has been protected by powerful friends and long considered

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Speaker 4: untouchable by law enforcement, but three years ago, the DEA

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Speaker 4: devised a bold undercover operation to capture him.

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Speaker 2: Nicknamed the Merchant of Death, Boot was the inspiration for

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Speaker 2: the two thousand and five movie Lord of War starring

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Speaker 2: Nicholas Cage.

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Speaker 3: How many close your coupes do you have?

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Speaker 5: Whatever we say it is because no one else will

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Speaker 5: know the difference.

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Speaker 2: Three years after that movie's release, the DEA arrested Boot

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Speaker 2: in Thailand, where he'd agreed to sell weapons to FARK agents,

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Speaker 2: who were of course paid informants. Boot spent more than

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Speaker 2: a decade in a US prison, but in December twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two he was released.

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Speaker 6: This has been a negotiations that had been going at

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Speaker 6: the highest levels, but had been happening behind closed doors.

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Speaker 2: Boot was one half of a prisoner swap with Russia

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Speaker 2: for WNBA star Britney Griner.

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Speaker 6: It is unclear at this point who the White House

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Speaker 6: is going to swap for. We actually just have that in.

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Speaker 6: This is Victor Boot, the convicted Russian arms dealer. This

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Speaker 6: is a huge deal. It is breaking right now.

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Speaker 2: The DEA would like you to focus on Gasar and Boot.

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Speaker 2: James Bond bad guys, as federal agents describe them, but

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Speaker 2: they are exceptions, Most people caught up in dea narco

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Speaker 2: terrorism stings are like Flavio Georgescu, no serious criminal connections.

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Speaker 2: That is, yes, until well paid informants pretending to be

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Speaker 2: FARC members showed up. I'm Trevor Aronson from Western Sound

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Speaker 2: and iHeart Podcast. This is Alphabet Boys, episode ten, See Something,

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Speaker 2: Say Nothing?

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Speaker 7: Hi, Flavia?

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Speaker 3: Hey, how are you?

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Speaker 2: It's July twenty twenty two, and Flavio is in New York.

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Speaker 2: He's out of prison after serving nearly eight years, and

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Speaker 2: he's been transferred to a halfway house in a rough

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Speaker 2: area of the Bronx.

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Speaker 3: How are you doing a little bit hard?

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Speaker 8: It was not that is like I always think.

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Speaker 7: About what's that.

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Speaker 2: It hasn't been easy transitioning to the halfway house?

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Speaker 9: Is that what you mean?

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Speaker 8: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And that environment changed me a little bit. Right now,

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Speaker 3: I just see it because over there was like a

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Speaker 3: time capsule. But right now, like, okay, I tried to

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Speaker 3: go outside in the you know when I see people

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Speaker 3: running around and screaming, and that was not bo I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna I'm gonna make it.

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Speaker 2: Flavio could have received a life sentence following his conviction

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Speaker 2: a trial, but he didn't. The judge gave him ten years,

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Speaker 2: which will end up being about eight years in prison,

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Speaker 2: a year and a half way house in another year

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Speaker 2: on probation. It's a life altering sentence, no doubt. It

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Speaker 2: means Flavio spends his entire forties behind bars, but it's

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Speaker 2: not exactly the kind of sentence you'd expect a narco

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Speaker 2: terrorist to receive, and that's really the point. Flavio, like

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Speaker 2: most caught in DEA narco terrorism stings, is a terrorist,

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Speaker 2: a drug runner, or an arms dealer, and he's certainly

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Speaker 2: not a narco terrorist. These days, most of the people

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Speaker 2: prosecuted as part of DEA narco terrorism stings are free,

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Speaker 2: having served sentences like Flavia's, or in some cases, even

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Speaker 2: less time. They all just had the misfortune of getting

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Speaker 2: swept up in a nearly two decade hustle that the

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Speaker 2: DEA ran using unsuspecting people around the world to gin

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Speaker 2: up so called narco terrorism cases and secure millions of

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Speaker 2: dollars in funding every year. If you're inclined to believe

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Speaker 2: Flavio's story that he called the CIA to bust Wan,

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Speaker 2: a FARK representative who was secretly a DEA informant, The

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Speaker 2: story is altogether tragic, the case of a man who

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Speaker 2: sought to help the US government only to be prosecuted

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Speaker 2: and imprisoned by the US government, and the personal costs

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Speaker 2: of this for Flavio have been devastating.

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Speaker 8: I don't have a small modil of water.

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Speaker 3: Still do one another one.

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Speaker 2: There's this piece of tape from the DEA's undercover sting

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Speaker 2: I find haunting now, so many years after it was recorded.

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Speaker 2: It really has nothing to do with the DEA's case.

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Speaker 2: It's just small talk between Flavio and Wan. But this

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Speaker 2: small talk seems appalling to me in hindsight. Flavio and

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Speaker 2: Wan are at the area in Bucharest, Romania. This is

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Speaker 2: the first time they meet.

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Speaker 8: How many kids you have? I don't have kids kids.

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Speaker 2: Wan tells Flavio that he has seven children, and he

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Speaker 2: asks Flavio if he has any kids.

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Speaker 3: I traveled too much.

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Speaker 4: And I have time for the kids.

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Speaker 3: You will, though, and find your way.

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Speaker 2: I travel too much, Flavio says, I haven't had time

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Speaker 2: for kids. Wan tells him you will.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you'll have to, because why is it going to

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Speaker 6: be a loan loan all age by yourself.

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Speaker 2: Flavio had only been married to his wife Andre for

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Speaker 2: a few years when the DEA arrested him in Montenegro.

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Speaker 2: He and Andre had big plans like most couples do,

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Speaker 2: but after Flavio's arrest, Andra moved to New York and

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Speaker 2: liquidated everything they owned to pay for his criminal defense,

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Speaker 2: which of course ended with Flavio being sentenced to prison.

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Speaker 2: Andra stayed in New York, building a new life for

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Speaker 2: herself and supporting Flavia in prison. She felt a duty

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Speaker 2: as his wife to be there for him, but soon

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Speaker 2: after Flavio arrived at the halfway House, Andre filed for divorce.

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Speaker 2: She'd helped him through prison, and now with Flavio out,

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Speaker 2: she's done.

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Speaker 9: Andre hates me because I destroy her life. I took

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Speaker 9: the best years from her life. Intend to to have

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Speaker 9: children together, Intend to have a normal family myself. I

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Speaker 9: believe on you. I believe on this on Dao, which

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Speaker 9: I took to protect and defend his nation. And I said, man,

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Speaker 9: this is my chance right now, this is what I'm

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Speaker 9: gonna do with this investigation. We're gonna be so crazy,

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Speaker 9: will be so big, show the armless laundry and everything

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Speaker 9: would be amazing. And look at me. I'm I'm I've

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Speaker 9: you know, sometimes I said, I don't know. I I asked,

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Speaker 9: got to keep me healthy. But sometimes when I wake

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Speaker 9: up in the morning, I feel like and see this room,

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Speaker 9: I feel like, you know what. I was better not

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Speaker 9: to wake up and just go to sleep and go

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Speaker 9: to sleep forever. And that's it.

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Speaker 3: Because Andre.

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Speaker 2: Andre introduced me years ago to Flavio and his case,

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Speaker 2: I wanted Andre's voice to be part of this story.

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Speaker 2: I really tried to make that happen. One afternoon, she

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Speaker 2: and I met at a coffee shop in Manhattan to talk.

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Speaker 2: I agreed not to record our conversation. Andre told me

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Speaker 2: that she's never doubted that Flavio was working for the CIA,

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Speaker 2: or at the very least that Flavio thought he was

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Speaker 2: working for the CIA. But she told me that doesn't

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Speaker 2: make her any less angry about what happened. In Andre's view,

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Speaker 2: even if Flavio had been working for the US government,

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Speaker 2: he'd put her in there marriage second behind whatever sort

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Speaker 2: of operation he was running against Juan and the other Colombians.

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Speaker 2: Flavio didn't need to get involved in any of this,

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Speaker 2: as Andra sees it, and he should have been thinking

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Speaker 2: about her and the risks involved in what he was doing,

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Speaker 2: and that's what she's unable to forgive. So now with

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Speaker 2: Flavio in a halfway house and the divorce finalized, Andre

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Speaker 2: wants to move on with her life. No Flavio, no

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Speaker 2: talk about the CIA calls, and no interview with me.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, I get it. I can understand where she's

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Speaker 2: coming from. So I never pressured Andre again, do you.

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Speaker 9: I don't know? It's so it's so much. Andre hates me.

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Speaker 9: Do you understand that?

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Speaker 2: I tell Flavio that I think losing Andre is the

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Speaker 2: highest price he paid for all this.

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Speaker 7: He agrees.

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Speaker 9: She hates me for what I did to her. I

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Speaker 9: put her to so much pain and to so much

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Speaker 9: soft and humiliate her and destroy her life for nothing.

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Speaker 8: How many kids you have?

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Speaker 3: I don't have kids, And.

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Speaker 2: I guess this is why I find that moment of

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Speaker 2: small talk between Flavio and Wan so haunting.

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Speaker 3: I travel too much. I didn't have time for kids.

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Speaker 8: You will, though, and find your way.

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Speaker 2: He's telling Flavio that he should have children. You don't

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Speaker 2: want to die old and alone, one says, But secretly

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Speaker 2: one knows that will likely be the consequence of what

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Speaker 2: he's doing. He knows He's going to send Flavio to prison,

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Speaker 2: and he knows that Flavio as a result, may very

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Speaker 2: well die old and alone.

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Speaker 3: And when I'm gonna die, who are gonna be next

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Speaker 3: to me? In the last moment of my life? I

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Speaker 3: lost my wife, I lost my father, I lost it,

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Speaker 3: not everything, BA what I'm gonna do right now?

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Speaker 9: Like travor is, I'm I'm like I said, I'm at

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Speaker 9: this point. I feel so scared.

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Speaker 5: More.

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Speaker 2: After the break, Massimo Romagnoli and Christian Ventilla, Flavio's two

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Speaker 2: colleagues and the weapons deal with Wan, received leniency in

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Speaker 2: their sentencing because they agreed to plete guilty and testify

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Speaker 2: against Flavio. Massimo was released in prison in September twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: and Christian roughly a year later. They're now back in Europe.

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Speaker 2: Christian is quiet about his new life, but Massimo, that's

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Speaker 2: another story.

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Speaker 5: Romagnol delid.

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Speaker 8: Important.

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Speaker 2: Massimo is back in the public eye in a big way,

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Speaker 2: as if he had never been convicted of participating in

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Speaker 2: an arms deal to send weapons to terrorists. You can

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Speaker 2: find him talking about politics on Italian.

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Speaker 7: TV toms Go.

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Speaker 2: Massimo is at exclusive events, speaking on panels with public

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Speaker 2: officials and corporate executives.

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Speaker 6: Romaannolis the progress of consulting.

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Speaker 3: In Antanto.

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Speaker 2: Vitore, and Massimo posts a lot of videos of himself

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Speaker 2: dressed to the nines and traveling first class around Europe.

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Speaker 8: Bimbi.

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Speaker 2: Massimo has not only crafted an image for himself as

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Speaker 2: a connected guy, but also as a hard worker. He

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Speaker 2: declares in one video that he'll work until he's one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years old if God allows. One thing

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Speaker 2: Massimo has worked hard at is spinning his conviction and imprisonment.

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Speaker 2: On a recent resume, he lists his employment from twenty

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Speaker 2: fifteen to twenty seventeen, the time he was incarcerated, as

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Speaker 2: a teacher at federal detention facilities. Massimo also self published

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Speaker 2: a book written in Italian titled An Innocent Trapped. In it,

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Speaker 2: Massimo claims that he's innocent of all the charges resulting

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Speaker 2: from quote the conspiracy of the Romanians Flavio Georgescu and

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Speaker 2: Christian Ventilla, of which I was the victim.

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Speaker 10: Being innocent to his da injurious because you have no alibis,

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Speaker 10: someone wrote, and I actually had the feeling of not

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Speaker 10: being able to acconerate myself with any proof and with

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Speaker 10: any concrete argument.

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Speaker 2: This is a translated passage from Masimo's book.

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Speaker 10: Because when one is truly innocent, only the candor and

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Speaker 10: clarity of one's confession are the true proof, the true,

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Speaker 10: infallible evidence of the loathfulness of one's sections.

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Speaker 2: And Massimo's campaign to rehabilitate his image seems to have worked.

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Speaker 2: He's now running a lobbying and consulting firm in Brussels,

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Speaker 2: and he's the president of the Freedom Movement, a political

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Speaker 2: organization that promotes Italian workers, culture and products throughout Europe. Massimo,

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Speaker 2: of course, refused to do an interview. Here's what he

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Speaker 2: emailed to me, his words, again voiced by an actor.

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Speaker 10: I don't want to risk to have any problem or

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Speaker 10: get mixed up with mister Flavia. He already destroyed my

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Speaker 10: life one time and it's enough, so please respect my will.

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Speaker 2: When Massimo and Christian both agreed to testify against Flavio,

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Speaker 2: they created something of a partnership, a partnership that apparently

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Speaker 2: hasn't ended. Like Massimo, Christian has publicly downplayed his time

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Speaker 2: in prison on his LinkedIn profile. Christian List's employment from

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen to twenty eighteen, the period he was incarcerated

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Speaker 2: as a quote external partner at a US government agency.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, that's not inaccurate, I guess, but it's

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Speaker 2: definitely a strange way to say you are a federal inmate. Christian,

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Speaker 2: also on LinkedIn, lists himself as a consultant to Massimo's

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Speaker 2: firm at business meetings. I suspect they don't advertise that

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Speaker 2: they were introduced by a mister Flavio Georgescu, international arms trafficker.

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Speaker 1: I am a hero. The Americans made me a hero,

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Speaker 1: so I don't have to clean my name.

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Speaker 2: Christian, like Massimo, refused to be interviewed. Here's what he

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Speaker 2: wrote to me.

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Speaker 1: This is the last conversation with you. Any other message

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Speaker 1: from you, I will take it as harassment.

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Speaker 2: What Christian appears to mean, nearest I can tell, is

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Speaker 2: that he's a hero because he testified against Flavio. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: Massimo and Christian heroes who refuse to be interviewed about

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Speaker 2: their apparent acts of heroism. I don't think Massimo and

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Speaker 2: Christian are villains. They're just patsies like Flavio, and they

258
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Speaker 2: flipped to save themselves at various times during our conversations.

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Speaker 2: Flavio has expressed real anxiety about participating in the story,

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Speaker 2: has even considered backing out entirely.

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Speaker 8: Do you imagine what's happened with my leg right now?

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Speaker 8: Do you know I don't have a place to go?

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Speaker 8: Do you know I'm afraid when I get off from

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Speaker 8: the Southway, so I look like I'm parano, I'm looking

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Speaker 8: twenty directions and everywhere, just to you know, be sure

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Speaker 8: I'm not gonna get killed.

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Speaker 2: Flavio says he's concerned about Massimo and Christian and what

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Speaker 2: they might do if they hear all this. We're having

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Speaker 2: this conversation by phone. Flavio isn't his halfway house in

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Speaker 2: New York. He's been there a few months now.

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Speaker 8: Massimo has a lot of money, a lot of power.

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Speaker 8: He hates me because of me. He lost his family,

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Speaker 8: He lost his three kids, which one of so little

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Speaker 8: at that time, was like probably four or five years old,

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Speaker 8: and the wife she divorced him. And if he has

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Speaker 8: the chance to put me on the ground, he's gonna

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Speaker 8: kill me with no problems, not him directed, not him

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Speaker 8: directly in Romania, extremely powerful and extremely connected and everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Flavio worries about extreme, if highly unlikely scenarios like those,

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Speaker 2: because he doesn't know what he will do with his life.

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Speaker 2: He's got nothing now, no wife, no home, no money,

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Speaker 2: and he doesn't know if you should stay in the

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Speaker 2: States or return to Europe.

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Speaker 8: Please understand me to travel about what I'm gonna do

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Speaker 8: in my life. I'm fifty years old. What I was

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Speaker 8: supposed to do just outside? Did you show myself in

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Speaker 8: the head just because I was an idiot, just because

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Speaker 8: I was believing in.

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Speaker 9: Your country, just because I believe on.

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Speaker 8: An oak which I took in front of your nation.

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Speaker 2: Making problems worse is the fact that Flavio's attempts to

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Speaker 2: find a job while living in the halfway House have

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Speaker 2: been discouraging. Given his conviction on terrorism related charges, Employers

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Speaker 2: automatically assume he's some sort of super villain.

295
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 3: I tried to get a job a traveler. I call

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Speaker 3: probably twenty companies. She said, what was the charges? What

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00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 3: did the government charge you with? And when I said

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Speaker 3: the charges, she said, surely, see you have boss and

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Speaker 3: she hang up the phone. At least ten people they

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Speaker 3: cursed me out so bad that means it's no way

301
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Speaker 3: for me to have a chance to find the job.

302
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Speaker 9: When I'm sucking this halfway.

303
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Speaker 2: House Flavio situation. It's bleak. There's an absurdity to it

304
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Speaker 2: as well. The crime Flavia was convicted of providing material

305
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Speaker 2: support to terrorists wouldn't hold up if he committed it today.

306
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Speaker 2: That's because the supposed terrorist that Flavio supported, the FARC,

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00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: aren't actually terrorists any longer, at least not according to

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Speaker 2: the US government. In November twenty twenty one, the Biden

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Speaker 2: administration removed FARC from the State Department's list of Foreign

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Speaker 2: Terrorist groups in order to encourage peace between the Colombian

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Speaker 2: government and the rebels. The DEA's narco terrorism stings they

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00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: are pretty much.

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Speaker 7: Over now as a result.

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Speaker 2: Guys like Wan they can't pull off these cases now

315
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Speaker 2: that they can no longer pretend to be FARK agents.

316
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Speaker 2: This whole story is about pretending. Juan was pretending to

317
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Speaker 2: be a FARK guy. Juan's colleagues were pretending to be

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Speaker 2: Colombian revolutionaries. Flavia was pretending to be an arms dealer,

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Speaker 2: you know who. Throughout the deal wasn't pretending Christian and

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Speaker 2: Massimo unlike Flavio, they didn't have a cover story. They

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Speaker 2: didn't call the CIA, so what they were doing helping

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Speaker 2: Flavio broke her that arms deal for wand there's no

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00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 2: indication that they were doing anything but that. And yet

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00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,880
Speaker 2: the prison sentences they received were far less than what

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Speaker 2: Flavio received because the government needed their testimony to convict Flavio.

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Speaker 7: Is that fair?

327
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Speaker 2: Christian and Massimo they're back in Europe living a good life.

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Speaker 2: Flavio he's living in a halfway house in New York.

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Speaker 2: I've been talking over the phone with Flavio for several years,

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Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of calls. I've often felt like his therapist,

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Speaker 2: but I've never met him in person. But finally Flavio

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Speaker 2: and I have a chance to meet, So let's go

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Speaker 2: to New York.

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Speaker 7: That's after the break.

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Speaker 3: That's why we're here.

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Speaker 2: I'm in a hotel room in New York with Flavio.

337
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Speaker 2: My colleague Eleanor Knight, who's helping me with production and research,

338
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Speaker 2: is with us.

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Speaker 3: And if I was taking some money, what you can say, oh,

340
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Speaker 3: Flavio is honest guy. Why he took a little bit

341
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Speaker 3: of money because he was having to pay his rent.

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Speaker 8: I'm not gonna work like that.

343
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Speaker 2: I start my recorder as Flavio being Flavio is midway

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Speaker 2: through a monologue. He's talking to Eleanor, whom he just

345
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 2: met a couple of hours ago, explaining from his perspective

346
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Speaker 2: why he's been talking to me on the phone these

347
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Speaker 2: past few years.

348
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Speaker 3: That's why he's okay. But I tried to explain to

349
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 3: him a long time ago. You know, this is your

350
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 3: chance to prove they are wrong, they do wrong things.

351
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Speaker 3: This is this is my point of view right now.

352
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: Flavio tells Eleanor that his case is my chance to

353
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: prove a point that aggressive sting operations like the one

354
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Speaker 2: that targeted him can result in the prosecution of people

355
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: who are innocent, people who, to use Flavio's words, don't

356
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: bite the bait.

357
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Speaker 3: We cannot send people to instigate people to commit crime.

358
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Speaker 3: To teach them, you let them know things which some

359
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 3: people they don't know to do it. They don't know

360
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 3: how to put those things together. A crime is like

361
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: a puzzle. Myself never selling guns. Never I see movies

362
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: with arm dealers on TV, but hold on from the

363
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: movie to myself. Going to talk about those things was

364
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: a big, big challenge, and I have to learn.

365
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 8: I have to.

366
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Speaker 3: Create a mindset. Okay, I'm going there for say, but

367
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: I'm gonna die.

368
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: I was happy we came to New York because Flavio

369
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: had been uncertain about continuing to cooperate with me. It's

370
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 2: not that Flavio didn't want a story told suddenly. It

371
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: was just that his life had become so uncertain once

372
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: he got to the halfway House that he wasn't sure

373
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: which way was up and which I was down? Could

374
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: my telling a story just make things worse? So we

375
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: traveled here to talk through his concerns. We walked to

376
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: a sushi restaurant. Flavio's choice sushi reminds him of the

377
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 2: affluent life he once had in Europe. He asked us

378
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: not to record during our meal, and Flavio lays out

379
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: his concerns. Flavio says that because he lives in a

380
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 2: halfway House, he has limited control over his day to

381
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: day life, and he also feels like he's losing control

382
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: of his story because I, as the journal list, have

383
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: taken control of it. But I think more than anything,

384
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 2: Flavio just wants someone to talk to about his feelings

385
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: of uncertainty in life. Bringing me into this mess doing

386
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: all these interviews just came to represent another thing.

387
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 7: Flavio lost control over.

388
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: In the end, Flavio agrees to sit down for our

389
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: first recorded interview face to face. We have limited time

390
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: because Flavio is halfway house has a curfew. His room

391
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 2: isn't much, but unless he wants to return to prison,

392
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: he has to get back before curfew.

393
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 9: I live in a room with no window.

394
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 3: It is a window and is a wall that much

395
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: distance between my window and the world. I'm on the

396
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 3: second floor. This sky is somewhere or no. I don't

397
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: see light. I don't see nothing.

398
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 2: About an hour and a half into our interview, I

399
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: look at the time. I'd like to keep talking about

400
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: anyone whose six point thirty you need to go on time?

401
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: Let me see what Flavio pulls out his phone. It's

402
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: an enormous thing with a screen that folds in half

403
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: like a book. I'd never seen someone use such an

404
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: unwieldy phone.

405
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 7: That's a cool phone. So it flips, it flips out

406
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 7: to create like a large screen.

407
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 3: Has one over here?

408
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 2: Is it drain battery quickly or is it the batteries?

409
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: Okad right now you ask me like this. I want

410
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 3: to drive a Ferrari. How many miles per gallow I

411
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 3: can make.

412
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 7: It's a very good point driving.

413
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 3: You don't care about yes, my list, Let's be honest.

414
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, is it?

415
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: I mean we can always if you if you're running late,

416
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: we could get a car for you.

417
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 7: Did that get you there faster? Or is that slower

418
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 7: at this time of day?

419
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: No, it's not a.

420
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 7: Flavio and I both look up the travel time.

421
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: It looks like it's about.

422
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 7: Forty minute drive.

423
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh we do a train, I make sixty

424
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 3: the same thing, the same thing. Okay, I'm going to

425
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 3: take the train. I can spend five six four minutes.

426
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 2: Flavio's scheduled for release from the Halfway House in the

427
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: summer of twenty twenty three. He'll have to stick around

428
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: the US for at least another year to complete his

429
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: term of probation. If Lavio can't find a place to live,

430
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: he'll be forced to move into a homeless shelter in

431
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: New York in order to establish an address for his

432
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: probation record, and that may be the likely scenario. Being

433
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 2: convicted on terrorism related charges, it's one of the worst

434
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: labels to have.

435
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 7: Flavio can't get rid of it.

436
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: This is this is me. I'm afraid, I'm scared to leave.

437
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: I don't know a place to go. And if this

438
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: is this is what I'm struggling day, this is sometimes

439
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: when you call me, I don't feel to talk and

440
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: I don't feel And like I said, I understand your work.

441
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: I understand what you try to do, but what I'm

442
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: gonna do myself, I have questions, which doesn't let me

443
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: to sleep.

444
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: Flavio is hoping that maybe when it's halfway house term ends,

445
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 2: he can find someone who needs a caretaker, an elderly

446
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: or disabled person who could offer a room in exchange

447
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: for assistance, cooking, cleaning, running errands, something anything to keep

448
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: him out of a homeless shelter. By now, Flavio admits

449
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: he's learned his lesson helping the US government, the FBI,

450
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: the CIA, or maybe another agency that's no longer a

451
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: hobby for Flavio Georgescu.

452
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: Next time see something, turn your head, don't say nothing.

453
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 3: Just keep walking, because it was not fine. Ten years

454
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: in prison was not a joke.

455
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: See something, say nothing. That's Flavio's new motto. The tragedy

456
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: of Flavio's story, in my view, is rooted in its futility.

457
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: Flavio lost everything and for what his case became nothing

458
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: more than the very strange story you've heard here, involving

459
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 2: three government agencies, the CIA, the DEA, and the FBI.

460
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: When the DEA arrested Flavio, Christian and Massimo, agents could

461
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: have used them to go after other people, such as

462
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: the guys in Germany who helped obtain the end user

463
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: certificate or the oligarch in Bulgaria who was willing to

464
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: sell the weapons, but federal agents didn't do that work.

465
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: They just charged the lower level guys, Flavio, Christian and Massimo.

466
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: And when Flavio got his hands on recordings of his

467
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: calls to the CIA, recordings that raised doubts about the

468
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: government's claim that Flavio was a real armsbroker, the Justice

469
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: Department cut deals with Christian and Massimo to secure Flavio's conviction.

470
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: In the end, the DEA and the Justice Department got

471
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: what they wanted, another stat another conviction, another case made,

472
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: and then with Flavio sent to prison, agents and prosecutors

473
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: just moved on to the next case.

474
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 5: And the only mental justification I have is that he

475
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 5: knew or should have known the rules.

476
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: Mark Pinto, Flavio's former FBI handler thinks he could have

477
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: helped Flavio, maybe even prevented him from going to prison,

478
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: but he didn't. Mark is haunted by that. But at

479
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: the same time he thinks Flavio really should have known better.

480
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 5: And you can't trust the bad guys even if you're

481
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 5: a bad guy because of role on you and say

482
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 5: you did things you didn't and the bad guys will

483
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 5: do that. And if it's benefiting of a government organization,

484
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 5: they'll do it. And if you put your complete faith

485
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 5: and trust in a government organization with the expectation that

486
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 5: it's gonna meet what your expectations are, your high expectations,

487
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 5: I mean more America, you have the highest ideals we do.

488
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 5: It doesn't always work that way. The reality is all

489
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 5: this stuff is stat driven. How many prosecutions you get,

490
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,959
Speaker 5: how many people get arrested, how many search warrants? And

491
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 5: I can guarantee you one thing. Whoever the case agent

492
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 5: on that case was easily got a promotion.

493
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: Mark studies theology now in his retirement. In Judeo Christian thought,

494
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: there's the idea that we are rewarded for our good deeds.

495
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: In more recent history, we developed a cynical twist on

496
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: that idea, no good deed goes unpunished, and that, in

497
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: Mark's view, seems to sum up what happened to Flavio.

498
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 5: As distasteful as as it is. Things happen. That's I mean,

499
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 5: that sounds so basic. Things happen, but it's an unfortunate

500
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 5: turn of events. I'm not making line of it because

501
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 5: it's not fair, but life isn't fair, and he should

502
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 5: have known.

503
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: What Flavio couldn't have known because he believed too much

504
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 2: in the idea of America, was that sometimes the people

505
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: who claim to be the good guys desperately need foils.

506
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 2: They desperately need bad guys, so much so that they'll

507
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: create them. Even out of Flavio Georgescu.

508
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 5: His problem was he was too ideal. He believed he's

509
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 5: a true believer, and he he paid dearly for that

510
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 5: dose of reality. So that's it. I wish we could

511
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 5: have ended up on a higher note.

512
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: This was up in arms season two of Alphabet Boys.

513
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: Alphabet Boys is a production of Western Sound and iHeart Podcasts.

514
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: It's reported, written and hosted by me. Trevor Aronson, Ben

515
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: Adare and I are the executive producers. Colin McNulty is

516
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: our showrunner. The producer is Nicole McNulty. Original composition by

517
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 2: Alex mckinnis, sound design by Tyler Hill. The show is

518
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: mixed by Victoria Schifflett. Eleanor Knight is our production assistant

519
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: and researcher Sam Pearson designed our cover art. Executive producers

520
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: for iHeart Podcasts are Nick Stump, Bethan Mcalousa, and Lindsay Hoffmann.

521
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: For more information about this series or to drop us

522
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: a tip, head to our website, Alphabet Boys dot xyz.

523
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: You can contact me on Twitter or Instagram at Trevor Aronson.

524
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 2: The show's instagram is Alphabetboys dot pod. If you're enjoying

525
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: Alphabet Boys, tell your friends about the show. Personal recommendations

526
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: are the best recommendations. And if you want to see

527
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 2: an illegal arms deal from the inside again, it's Alphabet

528
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: Boys dot xyz. You'll find undercover recordings and documents related

529
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: to Flavio's case. Finally, you can help us ride the

530
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 2: algorithms by leaving a rating or a review on your

531
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: favorite podcast app that helps other people find us.

532
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 7: And finally, thanks so much for listening.