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Speaker 1: Pushing. You know, I did have one white friend who

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Speaker 1: I won't name, and his parents conveyed to me that

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Speaker 1: I was a bad influence on him. Really, I don't

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Speaker 1: think if it would do with race, It just had

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Speaker 1: to do with me, big asshole. Oh that's funny.

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Speaker 2: I'm Khalil Jibron Muhammad.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben Austen. We're two best friends, one black, one white.

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Speaker 2: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is

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Speaker 2: some of my best friends are.

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Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are dot dot dot. In

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Speaker 1: this show, we wrestled with the challenges and the absurdities

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Speaker 1: of a deeply divided and unequal country.

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Speaker 2: And today we are finally talking about us. The interracial

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Speaker 2: friendship the show is based on.

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Speaker 1: That's right. We're going to tell you how you too

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Speaker 1: can have a successful interracial friendship. Three quick ways to

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Speaker 1: do it, guarantee.

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Speaker 2: And make your life happier.

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Speaker 1: Just kidding, but we are going to talk about interracial friendships.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the social science behind them,

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Speaker 1: what the social science gets right, what it gets wrong,

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Speaker 1: and why these friendships are important.

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Speaker 2: So I've been thinking a lot about our friendship. Man,

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Speaker 2: Remember that time that makes me happy?

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Speaker 1: To hear.

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Speaker 2: Remember that time we were on the like this big

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Speaker 2: public radio talk show promoting some of the Best Friends Are.

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Speaker 1: Of course, that was one of our first promos that

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Speaker 1: we were on a show, and we were talking about

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Speaker 1: basically the conceit of our show, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of us is black, one of us is white, right,

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Speaker 1: and that our friendship didn't necessarily mean a lot as

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Speaker 1: far as changing structural issues, but we're here to talk

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Speaker 1: about to talk about what we are trying to do,

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Speaker 1: that's right.

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Speaker 2: So here we start taking all these calls. It's a

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Speaker 2: call in show, and people are like, well, I'm so

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Speaker 2: happy to talk to you Ben and Khalil, because you know,

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Speaker 2: my daughter's sixteen and she's white and she just offended

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Speaker 2: this black girl at our school and she has no

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Speaker 2: idea what to do. Can you help us figure this out?

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Speaker 1: And it was caller after call her. So the next

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Speaker 1: caller was a black woman who was like, this woman

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Speaker 1: at work is trying to be my friend, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure if I like her. We became the interracial

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Speaker 1: buddy whisperers, that's right. It was sort of the opposite

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Speaker 1: of what we were hoping to do, but we leaned

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Speaker 1: into it. You know, we were like, we weren't going

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Speaker 1: to tell people we were going to do this, and

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Speaker 1: that's right. In a way, maybe we were like, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is this is much more professionally lucrative, like guess

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Speaker 1: is what we should be.

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Speaker 2: Doing, or just you know, maybe much more helpful. So

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Speaker 2: it got us to thinking about how rare these friendships are.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, And what does.

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Speaker 2: The actual research on the frequency and significance of interracial

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Speaker 2: friendships actually tell us?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so you're right. So let's look at some research,

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Speaker 1: some social science, and maybe we're going to learn something

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Speaker 1: about about interracial friendships, but maybe we'll also learn something

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Speaker 1: about ourselves and what makes us friends. I like that

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Speaker 1: it's a win win, or maybe what we discover is

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Speaker 1: like we shouldn't be friends. So we looked at this

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Speaker 1: study conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute and they

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Speaker 1: did surveys of American friendship friendship networks in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: And what we found is there's a ton of other

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Speaker 1: research it also supports their findings, including from Pew, and

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Speaker 1: what they found is white Americans their friendship networks are

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Speaker 1: on average ninety percent white so of all their friends,

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Speaker 1: nine out of ten of them are white. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: more than that, sixty seven percent their friendship networks are

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Speaker 1: like one hundred percent white. Are all white? No friends

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Speaker 1: who are outside their race, That's right.

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Speaker 2: If you go to their Facebook pages, there is not

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Speaker 2: a single black or brown face anywhere to be found. Now,

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Speaker 2: turns out for black folks they are a little bit

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Speaker 2: more engaging.

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Speaker 1: Outside of the race.

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Speaker 2: The study said that Black American friendship networks were around

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Speaker 2: seventy eight percent black, so not quite as bad as

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Speaker 2: white folks, but surprisingly not as good as it is

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Speaker 2: for Latinos and Asians.

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Speaker 1: Some people would think that Latinos and Asians would be

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Speaker 1: even more exclusive, but it's actually the opposite. They have

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Speaker 1: more friends, even more friends who are outside their social circles,

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Speaker 1: who are of different races.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and some researchers speculate it's the smallness of at

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Speaker 2: least for the Asian population that they kind of can't

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Speaker 2: help but have people outside of their community, even their

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Speaker 2: size in the population. All right, So big summary for

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Speaker 2: this research. Essentially, compared to people of color, white people

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Speaker 2: have the smallest percentage of friends who are not white,

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Speaker 2: and even more interesting than that like, the more education

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Speaker 2: white people get doesn't change this. It's still the same problem.

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Speaker 1: Come on, white people, come on, white people, Come on,

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Speaker 1: my people, Come on, my people. We need to work on.

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Speaker 2: This, so listen. In nineteen fifty four, this researcher named

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Speaker 2: Gordon Allport wrote this book.

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Speaker 1: Called The Nature. You're using the way back machine. We're

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Speaker 1: going all the way back to nineteen fifty I'm a historian.

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Speaker 1: Don't I get to it? I interrupted you, but keep

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Speaker 1: on going, all right, all right.

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Speaker 2: So this is important because this is kind of like

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Speaker 2: where this whole set of ideas came from.

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Speaker 1: And it's called what's the name of the study?

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Speaker 2: Again, I'm say the name of the study is called

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Speaker 2: The Nature of Prejudice. And Gordon Allport is famous now

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Speaker 2: for establishing what's called contact theory. And basically it's really simple.

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Speaker 2: He argued the different racists spending time together in pursuit

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Speaker 2: of a common goal would reduce prejudice. Okay, And he

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Speaker 2: actually was doing this research at a time when the

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Speaker 2: military had just been desegregated in nineteen forty eight, a

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Speaker 2: little bit after World War Two, and some of our

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Speaker 2: listeners who recognized nineteen fifty four was a pivotal year

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Speaker 2: for Brown versus Board of Education what schools were desegregated.

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Speaker 1: So this was so this is really thinking about about

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Speaker 1: right at the start of integrated America and how to

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Speaker 1: do it out of it segregated America.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the segregation was essentially supposedly on life support.

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Speaker 2: And so Allport was a social psychologist and he figured, hey,

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Speaker 2: we psychologists should be able to help solve for how

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Speaker 2: white people in particular get comfortable with getting to know

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Speaker 2: black people and opening up society. So he theorized that

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Speaker 2: in order for prejudice to be reduced, in order for

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Speaker 2: interracial friendships to thrive, like hours, four conditions would need

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Speaker 2: to be met. And I'm just going to simplify things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So like.

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Speaker 2: There's equality, cooperation, and clear rules. So does this make sense?

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Speaker 1: Yes, equality, commonality, cooperation, and clear rules. Maybe maybe a

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Speaker 1: way to understand it is that apply it to our friendship.

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Speaker 1: You have this, we have this lifelong friendship. That's right.

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Speaker 1: We've been friends since freshman year of high school yep,

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Speaker 1: and here we are, you know, thirty some years later.

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Speaker 1: And I think in terms of commonality, let's start there

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Speaker 1: that you and I surprisingly only had one class in

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Speaker 1: high school together, but we're in the same school and

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Speaker 1: we actually meet at a workplace. We work at Hyde

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Speaker 1: Park Computers together in ninth grade. We start a job together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, our real origin story is I'm fourteen years old

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Speaker 2: working in a computer store as a freshman in high

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Speaker 2: school and at some point I break my thumb and

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Speaker 2: I need help.

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Speaker 1: And here you get hired, You get high, get hired

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Speaker 1: to do the most rude, mentary work, and you're my boss,

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Speaker 1: you're my superior. And yeah, I mean we didn't instantly

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Speaker 1: become friends, but we sort of at least like in

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Speaker 1: this idea, we're in the same space, we're hanging out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's pause on that for a minute, because this

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Speaker 2: whole thing about commonality and equality is really about like

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Speaker 2: people meeting us peers where there isn't hierarchy because you know,

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Speaker 2: the old, the old historical problem is that you know,

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Speaker 2: black people were slaves to white people, and so it

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Speaker 2: wasn't about like proximity or simple contact if it was

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Speaker 2: a very hierarchical relationship. So we are in this workplace

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Speaker 2: experience together, which is really when we start to become friends.

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Speaker 2: And then that was like September October I remember our

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Speaker 2: freshman year. By spring we're both playing tennis together on

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Speaker 2: the tennis.

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Speaker 1: S that's right. And then on the tennis team, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of the tennis prodigy star.

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Speaker 2: Oh is that right? Don't forget I have most improved

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Speaker 2: player two years in a row. I got a matter

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Speaker 2: of time.

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Speaker 1: I will never let you forget that. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So it is the context. It's the classic content where

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Speaker 2: black and white people come together, you know, break down

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Speaker 2: their prejudices in pursuit of a common goal and become friends. Right,

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Speaker 2: that's the way it's supposed to work.

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Speaker 1: We're still equals. We're still equals in the sense of

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Speaker 1: we're operating the same sphere and under the same rules

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Speaker 1: in a.

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Speaker 2: Way, Yeah, because if you think about it, in the

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Speaker 2: moment that Allport was doing this work, like the military,

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Speaker 2: was this space where people came together as equals for

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Speaker 2: the common purpose of defending the nation with a shared

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Speaker 2: values of patriotism and clear rules of like how do

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Speaker 2: you work together? And so whether it's a sports team

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Speaker 2: for a lot of black and white Americans over the

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Speaker 2: years and certainly today, or whether it's a school environment

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Speaker 2: or even a workplace, it's this idea that if people

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Speaker 2: are in a common space, generally in a flat environment

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Speaker 2: where everyone has kind of equality, then good things will happen.

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Speaker 1: That's the idea. Yeah, so we have to we're going

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Speaker 1: from contact, which is different from a friendship that lasts

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Speaker 1: a lifetime, essentially, Like, how does that happen? That's right?

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Speaker 1: And all right? So I'd say one is, we come

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Speaker 1: from this community. We're allowed for just this contact to happen, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean that seems pretty rare.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's just unpack that, a man, we come from

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Speaker 2: a straight up integrated neighborhood. Like there's probably like three

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Speaker 2: of them, you know, in the state of Illinois, and

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Speaker 2: maybe fifty around the country. And I'm obviously joking a

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Speaker 2: bit here, but it's unusual that in and of itself

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Speaker 2: is a bit unusual.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe I mean, even thinking about that a

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Speaker 1: little bit, so that neither of us was the only

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Speaker 1: in the other circle. That's right.

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Speaker 2: I think, if my memory serves me correctly, I have

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Speaker 2: more white friends, meaning people I had called friend and

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Speaker 2: hung out friends and hung out with, than you had

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Speaker 2: white friends.

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Speaker 1: That's possible. In fact, I thought at some point that

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be friends with you because you

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Speaker 1: were two, you had too many white friends. I was worried,

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Speaker 1: but then you know you you pass the test eventually. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So look, these four conditions at all port set up

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Speaker 2: defined an entire field of how do you reduce prejudice

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Speaker 2: by making friends or making contact with somebody else? Okay,

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Speaker 2: But it turns out that most people didn't have this experience.

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Speaker 2: The data we just looked at in twenty twenty two

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Speaker 2: shows us just how badly this hole turned out over

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Speaker 2: these last several decades.

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Speaker 1: So we know that now that that that these groups

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Speaker 1: are really exclusive, that people white people, but even of

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Speaker 1: other races aren't hanging out together. Yep. And so since

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, segregation is outlawed in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and yet people still aren't coming together. And so when

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Speaker 1: we think about the spaces historically or even over these

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Speaker 1: last sixty seventy years where people have different race are

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Speaker 1: coming together, So where are they? They might be in schools, right, yep, yep,

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Speaker 1: that's right, they might be in the military.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Probably one of the biggest areas that people

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Speaker 2: often celebrate as places where prejudice and segregation broke down.

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Speaker 1: In fact, once we were at a baseball game in Denver,

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Speaker 1: you and me, and because we're together, everyone around us

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Speaker 1: was saying, you guys must have been in the military together, right,

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Speaker 1: because they had never seen like black and white friends together.

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Speaker 1: That's right. You know, sports becomes this kind of like,

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Speaker 1: you know, almost like a metaphor for bringing people together

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Speaker 1: under these you know, equal areas where people with different

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Speaker 1: experiences could bond.

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Speaker 2: And I guess William Hollywood Movies telling this story.

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Speaker 1: Yes, in a workplace, right, so places that are beyond

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Speaker 1: your own private sphere, which are somehow public, yep.

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Speaker 2: And so for you and me, like that's kind of

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Speaker 2: our story, right. We come of age in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 2: meeting in our integrated high school.

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Speaker 1: And you know, so we're in this integrated space of

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Speaker 1: all these ways, and a lot of people even from

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Speaker 1: our high school and shared our experiences, didn't become lifelong

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Speaker 1: friends with people of different races, just by the statistics

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Speaker 1: we're even cited.

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Speaker 2: Which creates this really, this a conundrum, right because to

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Speaker 2: some degree, you know, we are a product of a

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Speaker 2: moment of integration in America. We grew up in an

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Speaker 2: integrated neighborhood, We go to an integrated high school. We

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Speaker 2: have these integrated experiences, and it's like it turns out

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Speaker 2: we are like rare creatures relative to the vast majority

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Speaker 2: of white or black people.

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Speaker 1: But I also don't think I don't think there are

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Speaker 1: any conversations like, you know, you should have even on

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Speaker 1: the other sense, oh you should have you know, friends

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Speaker 1: across racial boundaries, you should have more friends. I don't

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Speaker 1: think it was just talked about did you have conversations

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Speaker 1: like that of like the meaning of this not at all.

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Speaker 2: I mean, at best, I would say we really were

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Speaker 2: kind of in an integrated neighborhood on the South side

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Speaker 2: Chicago and High Park. It was largely middle class, which

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Speaker 2: mitigated against the ways in which low income people often

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Speaker 2: are doubly burdened and stigmatized, and in a way that

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Speaker 2: like some people might be remembering their black friends from

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Speaker 2: their suburban high school or something like, you know, I

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Speaker 2: wasn't busted in to go to.

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Speaker 1: School with you, right, and the community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you didn't come from some like white part of

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Speaker 2: town to go to this integrated high school. You lived

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Speaker 2: in a black neighborhood. So there were some unique things

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Speaker 2: about being in an integrated community. And I got to say,

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Speaker 2: like I adopted your parents very early on. I called

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Speaker 2: your parents Ma and Paul, Like, I can't remember a

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Speaker 2: time when I haven't called them that. Now you called

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Speaker 2: my mom.

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Speaker 1: What shorty rough? She was a stand in mom, And

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Speaker 1: so that sense too of our larger family circle sort

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Speaker 1: of you know that this is being normalized and part

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Speaker 1: of our experiences that And then I guess i'd say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't like my parents were the only

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Speaker 1: white and Jewish adults you knew, and for me it

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Speaker 1: was and like your mom was the only black woman

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Speaker 1: I knew. That's right because student for those figures, because.

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Speaker 2: You had a soon to be black mother in law Carol's.

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Speaker 1: House, That's right, I was. Yeah, So this is the

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Speaker 1: other thing about in you know, as we're dating across

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Speaker 1: racial lines, do you think we ever talked about that

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Speaker 1: of like what that meant beyond you know, the either

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Speaker 1: the intrigue or the dangers or the significance. Did we

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Speaker 1: I don't remember ever having a conversation specifically about like

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Speaker 1: about about race and dating.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean I don't remember

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Speaker 2: like in our mutual friendship groups, there was definitely we

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Speaker 2: weren't the only ones. But I have to say, like

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Speaker 2: I mean, counterintuitive probably to other people, it was because

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Speaker 2: of your black girlfriend now wife, Danielle, that I had

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Speaker 2: two of my high school sweethearts. I mean, like it was.

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Speaker 2: It was a win win for me. No matter how

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Speaker 2: we look at.

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Speaker 1: It, you might have not dated any black girls if

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Speaker 1: it wasn't for me dating a black girl. Is what

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Speaker 1: you're saying.

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Speaker 2: No, that is not That is not what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: But befive, listen, We're going to talk more about this

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Speaker 2: as we go from being boys to men and grow

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Speaker 2: up and really unpack interracial friendships and look at a

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Speaker 2: little bit more research to see how it helps us

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Speaker 2: explain what's been going on in this country.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after the break.

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Speaker 1: All right, we are back on some of my best

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Speaker 1: friends are and Khalil and I are talking about interracial friendships.

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Speaker 1: This is a meta episode in a way. And Khalil,

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Speaker 1: we've been thinking about how how studies, how research explains

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Speaker 1: even our friendship. And so you had just said right

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Speaker 1: before the break, it's one thing to be friends as kids,

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Speaker 1: but but what does it mean to be friends as adults.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole other. A whole other issue and what

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Speaker 1: does it.

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Speaker 2: Mean you just have a friendship that lasts, right. A

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Speaker 2: lot of people were like, oh, yeah, you know one

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Speaker 2: of my best friends was filling the blank when I

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Speaker 2: was in high school. What I haven't talked to this

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Speaker 2: person in twenty years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's this book from twenty nineteen and it's

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Speaker 1: written by several sociologists. It's called In the Company We Keep,

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Speaker 1: and it's exactly about this subject. It's about interracial friendships

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Speaker 1: and about this transition from childhood to adulthood. The authors

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Speaker 1: looked at and analyzed Americans who were kids in seventh

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Speaker 1: to twelfth grade in the nineteen nineties, essentially us right

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Speaker 1: at this time when multiculturalism is being celebrated as like

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Speaker 1: the American ideal. Yes, yes, And then they grow up

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Speaker 1: and the researchers study them again in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: eight when they're between they're about thirty years old. So

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Speaker 1: we're in the Obama era, the so called post racial America.

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Speaker 2: This wholehold we go from color blindness to post racialism

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Speaker 2: with this, with these two cohorts of young people.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people fifteen thousand people to sort

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Speaker 1: of think of that they were friends as teenagers what

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Speaker 1: happened as adults?

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Speaker 2: Right, These are fifteen thousand respondents. This is the basis

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Speaker 2: of the study, and here's what they found. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the simple story they found is that kids who attend

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Speaker 2: more diverse schools like the one we went to were

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Speaker 2: more likely to have what they call cross racial friendships

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Speaker 2: as adults, even if they didn't have them as kids,

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Speaker 2: meaning as younger kids. That's pretty big deal and helps

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Speaker 2: to lay the foundation for you know how. The research

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Speaker 2: tells us what are the necessary conditions for interracial friendships

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Speaker 2: to thrive.

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Speaker 1: So underlining that again, going to an interracial school is

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Speaker 1: a huge deal. This is defining in terms of having

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Speaker 1: cross racial friendships.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but it turns out that even that reality and

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Speaker 2: knowing that reality, going back to the nineteen fifties, at

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Speaker 2: the end of legal segregation in the Brown Versus Board

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Speaker 2: of Education decision, the line separating black and white people

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Speaker 2: in the United States is still stronger than any other

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Speaker 2: racial groups, meaning black and white people are still not together,

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Speaker 2: which probably is as much a story about the failure

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Speaker 2: of integration and housing in so many other spaces than

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Speaker 2: anything else.

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Speaker 1: So meaning they may not have gone to interracial schools exactly,

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Speaker 1: and even if they had, they still it didn't last

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Speaker 1: over time.

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Speaker 2: Or that they went to schools, but people were being

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Speaker 2: bussed and shuttled about and it wasn't actually extending in

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Speaker 2: the classroom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So in this same study, they also looked

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Speaker 1: at interracial romantic relationships, so not just friendships but friends

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Speaker 1: with benefits and got it, and they found the same thing.

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Speaker 1: They found that you were much more likely to have

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Speaker 1: across racial romantic relationship if you went to a diverse school,

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Speaker 1: and they also found that you were more likely to

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Speaker 1: get with somebody of a different race if you had

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Speaker 1: a friend of a different race. That's me. That's the

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Speaker 1: wingman theory of interracial day. If you want to date

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Speaker 1: across racial lines, you need a wingman who's of the

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Speaker 1: race you want to date. That's what it explains that.

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Speaker 2: So what you're saying is it's only because of me

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Speaker 2: that you have this beautiful black woman as your wife

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Speaker 2: that you've had for how long have you all been married?

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Speaker 2: I've lost track.

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Speaker 1: Now, yeah, a little bit, a little bit, But you

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Speaker 1: might be right, you might be right, But these researchers

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Speaker 1: are actually finding that if you actually have a more

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Speaker 1: authentic relationship with another culture. It's more likely that this

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Speaker 1: is a kind of real relationship. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, like essentially the hot that person's exotic to me

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Speaker 2: kind of flash in the pan love interest is not

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to talk about when we grow up

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Speaker 2: a little bit. So let's talk about college. Because to

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Speaker 2: be honest with you, Ben, I mean, all that we've

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Speaker 2: been talking about about our origin story, that's just four

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Speaker 2: years of our relationship. We're going on like thirty seven.

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Speaker 2: So and we you know, we didn't spend time together

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Speaker 2: really after high school for long time. We both go

396
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Speaker 2: our separate ways.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the truth is, like, so if we were

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Speaker 1: in an interracial space as teenagers, we both go to

399
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Speaker 1: predominantly white colleges.

400
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Speaker 2: We both pronominantly white, overwhelmingly white.

401
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Speaker 1: Overwhelmingly white. Yes, we go into these spaces and separately.

402
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, right, So you're at the University of Rochester.

403
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Speaker 2: I go to the University of Pennsylvania. And I have

404
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Speaker 2: to tell you, man, I went to pen like I

405
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Speaker 2: didn't know shit about structural racism. I mean, I know

406
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Speaker 2: it's counterintuitive. Some people might think about my identity and

407
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Speaker 2: all of that, and what I do today, but kind

408
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Speaker 2: of the specialness of my childhood did not prepare me

409
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Speaker 2: for what I encountered when I became five percent of

410
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Speaker 2: pens black population in nineteen eighty nine, when I became

411
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Speaker 2: a freshman and.

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Speaker 1: You had a white roommate. Freshman year, I remember, I had.

413
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Speaker 2: A white room mate, Peter.

414
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Speaker 1: Like he was.

415
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Speaker 2: He was taller than you, and I went from like,

416
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Speaker 2: you know, tall tall buddy to even taller buddy. Peter

417
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Speaker 2: and I got along swimmingly, but we did not become

418
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Speaker 2: friends right we defined.

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Speaker 1: I remember search. I remember visiting you on campus and

420
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Speaker 1: staying in his bed and it was kind of funky. Yeah.

421
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Speaker 2: Well, he wore the same blue jees literally all year long.

422
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Speaker 2: I just honestly, by the end of the year they

423
00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:23,556
Speaker 2: were standing up in the corner. But outside of Peter

424
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Speaker 2: as my freshman year roommate. Out of four years at Penn,

425
00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:32,396
Speaker 2: I literally met and kept as a close friend, one

426
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Speaker 2: white guy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just want to say, they're like, they're

428
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Speaker 1: like twenty five white guys who are listening to this now,

429
00:22:37,916 --> 00:22:40,996
Speaker 1: and They're like, damn, I thought I thought we were

430
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Speaker 1: still friends.

431
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Speaker 2: I thought, No, let me, I mean this sincerely, like

432
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Speaker 2: if I had mostly white friends in high school, it

433
00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:53,356
Speaker 2: was just the opposite. In college, my whole world became

434
00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:57,596
Speaker 2: you know, African American this and that. I had tons

435
00:22:57,756 --> 00:23:02,396
Speaker 2: of black friends. I joined a fraternity, to a black, traditional,

436
00:23:02,716 --> 00:23:06,836
Speaker 2: historically black fraternity my freshman year, and I mean, it

437
00:23:06,996 --> 00:23:09,436
Speaker 2: just it made my life wonderful. I mean, and there's

438
00:23:09,436 --> 00:23:12,236
Speaker 2: no critique whatsoever. But it could not have been more

439
00:23:12,236 --> 00:23:15,236
Speaker 2: different than what I'd experienced growing.

440
00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:19,596
Speaker 1: Up, which is so interesting. So in this overwhelmingly white space,

441
00:23:20,276 --> 00:23:23,756
Speaker 1: you create your own overwhelmingly black bubble within it.

442
00:23:24,636 --> 00:23:27,276
Speaker 2: Well, I mean black people do that anyway, but you know, yeah,

443
00:23:27,996 --> 00:23:30,676
Speaker 2: most of the world, when you're in segregated Black America

444
00:23:30,756 --> 00:23:34,196
Speaker 2: or segregated white America, Yeah, black people figure out how

445
00:23:34,236 --> 00:23:38,156
Speaker 2: to make sense of their smallness of population relative to

446
00:23:38,196 --> 00:23:40,476
Speaker 2: white people in all the powerful ways white people exist

447
00:23:40,556 --> 00:23:41,236
Speaker 2: among us.

448
00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:46,116
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I'm thinking what you said, and again how

449
00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:49,116
Speaker 1: much I thought about structural racism before these dynamics. We

450
00:23:49,196 --> 00:23:51,916
Speaker 1: just took so much for granted, it was weird going

451
00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:54,996
Speaker 1: to a school that was overwhelmingly white. It was weird

452
00:23:55,036 --> 00:23:59,516
Speaker 1: for me. And I'm thinking back to even teen years

453
00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:02,996
Speaker 1: in youth, like one of my experiences or partly what

454
00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:06,796
Speaker 1: defined my experience of being the only one in a

455
00:24:06,796 --> 00:24:07,636
Speaker 1: lot of spaces.

456
00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:11,236
Speaker 2: Oh, you mean being the only one guy among people.

457
00:24:11,156 --> 00:24:13,756
Speaker 1: Which is which is a kind of valuable perspective to

458
00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:16,076
Speaker 1: get to think about race, you know, to think about

459
00:24:16,116 --> 00:24:19,876
Speaker 1: like what what most minorities experience all the time. It's

460
00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:23,076
Speaker 1: just like and then to know like, oh, my whiteness

461
00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:26,316
Speaker 1: is a thing rather than a neutral thing or it

462
00:24:26,316 --> 00:24:29,836
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. You know that that whiteness is also race,

463
00:24:30,076 --> 00:24:33,276
Speaker 1: because I'm being seen from my race right now. And

464
00:24:33,636 --> 00:24:36,156
Speaker 1: to enter in a space where that that calculus never

465
00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:40,596
Speaker 1: came up, it was disorienting. There wasn't the equivalent thing

466
00:24:40,636 --> 00:24:43,756
Speaker 1: to do that you just said, which is like let

467
00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:46,196
Speaker 1: me create my own Like I didn't join in all

468
00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:49,596
Speaker 1: black space, and it wasn't like let me maybe in

469
00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:53,476
Speaker 1: some really small way, I found a group of integrated

470
00:24:53,516 --> 00:24:56,636
Speaker 1: people that like, like, that's their value.

471
00:24:57,076 --> 00:24:59,556
Speaker 2: You were trying to recreate kind of what home had been.

472
00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:01,316
Speaker 1: Like Yeah, but it was impossible to do. It was

473
00:25:01,356 --> 00:25:02,796
Speaker 1: impossible to do in this situation.

474
00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:05,316
Speaker 2: That's so fascinating because I didn't feel like I was

475
00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:08,236
Speaker 2: consciously doing something in search of a black identity. But

476
00:25:08,556 --> 00:25:10,876
Speaker 2: I have to say to you like, I get it.

477
00:25:11,236 --> 00:25:14,156
Speaker 2: There weren't there wasn't home on campus. It was one

478
00:25:14,276 --> 00:25:14,676
Speaker 2: or the other.

479
00:25:15,276 --> 00:25:18,396
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking about how you and I communicated this

480
00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:23,236
Speaker 1: even during that time, Like we did, yes talk about

481
00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:28,156
Speaker 1: our experiences, we probably talked more about about some of

482
00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:30,836
Speaker 1: these racial issues as they came up and over the

483
00:25:30,836 --> 00:25:34,596
Speaker 1: summers where we hung out NonStop still because it was

484
00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:36,196
Speaker 1: just part of our experience. Yeah.

485
00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:38,836
Speaker 2: Well, I was thinking about that because I think actually

486
00:25:38,876 --> 00:25:41,396
Speaker 2: the strength of our relationship in college was less about

487
00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:43,396
Speaker 2: what happened during the school year when we were away

488
00:25:43,436 --> 00:25:46,356
Speaker 2: from each other, even with these occasional visits, and more

489
00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,196
Speaker 2: about how we reconnected when we came home. And in

490
00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,556
Speaker 2: that sense, I think our relationship deepened and strengthened because

491
00:25:52,596 --> 00:25:56,036
Speaker 2: while we were changing in these other environments that monopolized

492
00:25:56,036 --> 00:25:58,356
Speaker 2: most of our lives. You know, for those two months

493
00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:01,436
Speaker 2: we were home, man, we were actually working. And that's

494
00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:04,116
Speaker 2: when we came up with our favorite pastime, which was

495
00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:07,876
Speaker 2: competitive support. Remember that metaphor for working out together.

496
00:26:07,756 --> 00:26:10,676
Speaker 1: Or doing whatever we're doing, yeah, hanging out together, yeah yeah, yeah.

497
00:26:10,676 --> 00:26:13,316
Speaker 2: So we would challenge ourselves within the context of like

498
00:26:13,396 --> 00:26:15,396
Speaker 2: if we challenge ourselves by how much more weight we

499
00:26:15,396 --> 00:26:18,836
Speaker 2: could lift today, or how many more basketball games we

500
00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:21,356
Speaker 2: can play in one day? We'll be better at everything.

501
00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:24,276
Speaker 2: And that was really that was a special time. I mean,

502
00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:26,196
Speaker 2: our summers together in college were incredible.

503
00:26:26,796 --> 00:26:29,356
Speaker 1: And this is a question about I mean, this is

504
00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:32,156
Speaker 1: actually might be outside of race, but it's impossible not

505
00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:34,516
Speaker 1: to consider it when you think about our dynamics. But

506
00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:38,876
Speaker 1: this is just about how any two people solidify a

507
00:26:38,916 --> 00:26:42,276
Speaker 1: friendship from childhood into adulthood, because I'm thinking about two

508
00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:45,756
Speaker 1: moments between us, and one is when I was like

509
00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:47,996
Speaker 1: in my early twenties, I traveled abroad, and when I

510
00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:49,516
Speaker 1: came back, you were the one who picked me up

511
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:51,636
Speaker 1: at the airport and you were working in Chicago. You

512
00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:53,236
Speaker 1: were dating someone I had been away for over a

513
00:26:53,316 --> 00:26:57,956
Speaker 1: year yep. And I remember us having like, in that moment,

514
00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,916
Speaker 1: a very like explicit conversation of how to like recalibrate

515
00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:04,996
Speaker 1: our friendship in adult terms.

516
00:27:05,276 --> 00:27:07,956
Speaker 2: I remember the feeling. I literally have an image of

517
00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:09,356
Speaker 2: this day of you getting off the air poor.

518
00:27:09,396 --> 00:27:11,756
Speaker 1: You had like this weird haircut, like a.

519
00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:13,516
Speaker 2: Buzz stud, and I hadn't seen I hadn't seen you

520
00:27:13,556 --> 00:27:17,956
Speaker 2: where with that look before. But I don't remember the conversation,

521
00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:19,476
Speaker 2: so what do we say to each other.

522
00:27:19,636 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 1: We need to get to know each other as adults.

523
00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:25,156
Speaker 1: Whatever presumptions we have about each other, we have to

524
00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:28,116
Speaker 1: sort of think about them. Anew, let's like, let's like

525
00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:31,196
Speaker 1: not presume anything and think about also the ways that

526
00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:31,876
Speaker 1: we've changed.

527
00:27:32,076 --> 00:27:33,316
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I gets it.

528
00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:36,476
Speaker 1: It was a really useful conversation to like move forward.

529
00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:37,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that.

530
00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:40,596
Speaker 1: Here here's the other thing, Khalil that when we were

531
00:27:40,596 --> 00:27:43,996
Speaker 1: in our twenties and I had gone to graduate school

532
00:27:44,036 --> 00:27:45,516
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about my next thing, and I

533
00:27:45,516 --> 00:27:49,556
Speaker 1: started teaching. You had been working as an accountant, and

534
00:27:50,556 --> 00:27:53,676
Speaker 1: at that time you decided to become a historian, to

535
00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:57,956
Speaker 1: enter a PhD program in history. And the question is, like,

536
00:27:58,756 --> 00:28:02,276
Speaker 1: if you had remained an accountant, whether we would still

537
00:28:02,316 --> 00:28:05,516
Speaker 1: be friends. That's a right question. It's like a joke

538
00:28:05,556 --> 00:28:08,396
Speaker 1: in a way, but I'm also serious, Like our interests

539
00:28:08,436 --> 00:28:12,236
Speaker 1: totally aligned, like our lifelong interest aligned. Yeah.

540
00:28:12,916 --> 00:28:16,116
Speaker 2: I think honestly, it's fair to say that had I

541
00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:20,756
Speaker 2: stayed on that route, we may not have stayed as close.

542
00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:22,636
Speaker 2: I think it would have been a closeness issue because

543
00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:24,996
Speaker 2: the things we could talk about, the things we could share.

544
00:28:26,116 --> 00:28:27,956
Speaker 2: I mean, and the truth is like it was your

545
00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:30,916
Speaker 2: father who had been who was and it continues to

546
00:28:30,916 --> 00:28:33,436
Speaker 2: be a historian at the University of Chicago as a

547
00:28:33,476 --> 00:28:35,716
Speaker 2: retired professor. Like, he's one of the first people I

548
00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:37,436
Speaker 2: talked about when I was about to make that move.

549
00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:41,236
Speaker 2: And so even thinking about, like the life trajectory I

550
00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:44,516
Speaker 2: was on ran through a relationship with your own father,

551
00:28:44,836 --> 00:28:46,116
Speaker 2: which meant it ran through you.

552
00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:51,796
Speaker 1: And then the shared interest, you know, not coincidentally, is

553
00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:55,836
Speaker 1: about race and inequity and just these issues like these

554
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:57,436
Speaker 1: are the things that we've been talking about for the

555
00:28:57,516 --> 00:29:02,396
Speaker 1: last thirty years, and we've shared that exploration and that

556
00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:03,956
Speaker 1: path together. Yeah.

557
00:29:04,196 --> 00:29:05,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the more I think about, if we

558
00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:08,436
Speaker 2: could invent a new race, it would be you and

559
00:29:08,476 --> 00:29:09,756
Speaker 2: me together. Hm hmm.

560
00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:15,756
Speaker 1: Well that's weird. Let's let's let's let's take let's take

561
00:29:15,756 --> 00:29:18,716
Speaker 1: a short break, and when we come back, let's think

562
00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:22,596
Speaker 1: about the ways that these interracial relationships, these friendships, what

563
00:29:22,676 --> 00:29:25,036
Speaker 1: do they even matter? Like what difference do they make?

564
00:29:41,916 --> 00:29:41,996
Speaker 4: All?

565
00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 1: Right?

566
00:29:42,276 --> 00:29:45,356
Speaker 2: Man, So we've mapped basically our whole friendship, you know,

567
00:29:45,436 --> 00:29:47,716
Speaker 2: and here we are working together, we're making a freaking

568
00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:50,836
Speaker 2: podcast together and talking about our past all the time,

569
00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:53,716
Speaker 2: and so pretty clear that whatever.

570
00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:55,836
Speaker 1: Map podcast about talking about our past.

571
00:29:56,476 --> 00:30:00,236
Speaker 2: Yes, so it's pretty clear that whatever we've been up

572
00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:03,876
Speaker 2: to for a long time works because after all, after all,

573
00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,036
Speaker 2: like the whole point of our show, the point of

574
00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,356
Speaker 2: interracial friendship is also like how do we reduce use

575
00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:12,836
Speaker 2: racism and all the fucking damage and death in mayhem

576
00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:13,556
Speaker 2: that comes with it.

577
00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:17,996
Speaker 1: Yeah, now the stakes are incredibly high for this. I mean,

578
00:30:18,036 --> 00:30:21,436
Speaker 1: it really matters that people do come in contact. So

579
00:30:21,796 --> 00:30:25,036
Speaker 1: the first study that we cited that listed all the

580
00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:27,956
Speaker 1: statistics about white people and black people having their own

581
00:30:27,996 --> 00:30:30,516
Speaker 1: sort of exclusive social networks that they're not hanging out

582
00:30:30,556 --> 00:30:34,236
Speaker 1: with people across race. They also in that study asked

583
00:30:34,236 --> 00:30:37,836
Speaker 1: people questions, and they found that white people who didn't

584
00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:39,836
Speaker 1: have black people or other people of other race in

585
00:30:39,876 --> 00:30:44,676
Speaker 1: their social networks were less likely to think that the slavery,

586
00:30:44,796 --> 00:30:47,836
Speaker 1: the legacy of slavery and discrimination still mattered that had

587
00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:51,716
Speaker 1: an impact on society. They were less likely to think

588
00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:55,756
Speaker 1: that a history of racism mattered. This is like defines

589
00:30:56,596 --> 00:31:00,076
Speaker 1: our political moment our divide here in the country right now.

590
00:31:00,356 --> 00:31:04,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's actually a huge cost to the failure

591
00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 2: of people to experience a meaningful integrated relationship and ship,

592
00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:12,196
Speaker 2: because at the end of the day, these folks that

593
00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,156
Speaker 2: you just described, you know, white people who don't have

594
00:31:15,196 --> 00:31:19,556
Speaker 2: integrated social networks, basically dismissed structural racism. And so you

595
00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:23,316
Speaker 2: can't solve for structural racism if a majority of the

596
00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:25,196
Speaker 2: white population doesn't even think it's real.

597
00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:31,596
Speaker 1: Nom hmmm. So let's think about us and sort of

598
00:31:31,636 --> 00:31:32,516
Speaker 1: as a model for this.

599
00:31:32,836 --> 00:31:35,036
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I like to put it this way.

600
00:31:35,516 --> 00:31:40,476
Speaker 2: We know that segregation is rampant in American society and

601
00:31:40,516 --> 00:31:43,436
Speaker 2: to some degree as bad or worse in some instances

602
00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:46,836
Speaker 2: than it was in the nineteen fifties and sixties. And

603
00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:52,196
Speaker 2: so integration is necessary but may not be entirely sufficient.

604
00:31:52,196 --> 00:31:55,636
Speaker 2: So let's talk about what more we think might be required.

605
00:31:56,156 --> 00:31:59,876
Speaker 2: And I think that's when the broader set of experiences

606
00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:02,396
Speaker 2: that we had. So you could live in an integrated community,

607
00:32:02,436 --> 00:32:05,356
Speaker 2: you could go to an integrated school, and yet if

608
00:32:05,396 --> 00:32:08,956
Speaker 2: the parents and the social network that you're actually part

609
00:32:08,996 --> 00:32:12,476
Speaker 2: of this integrated isn't fully invested in your relationship, right,

610
00:32:12,676 --> 00:32:16,436
Speaker 2: then it's probably not going to be the strongest outcome.

611
00:32:17,156 --> 00:32:18,756
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we were talking about you know, both of

612
00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:22,196
Speaker 1: our parents, our sets of parents were like embraced each

613
00:32:22,236 --> 00:32:28,356
Speaker 1: other fully as their standing child. Everyone around us was like, yeah,

614
00:32:28,436 --> 00:32:33,836
Speaker 1: that friendship is meaningful. Yeah, our bosses, our coaches, our

615
00:32:33,876 --> 00:32:34,556
Speaker 1: other friends.

616
00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:38,116
Speaker 2: That's right, John, mister g shout out. The whole community

617
00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:40,836
Speaker 2: to some degree supported you and me. And I'll just say,

618
00:32:40,876 --> 00:32:44,276
Speaker 2: for the record, I don't have any other white friends

619
00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:47,356
Speaker 2: from my high school years. All those people I talked

620
00:32:47,356 --> 00:32:49,356
Speaker 2: about at the top of this show, like, I didn't

621
00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:51,676
Speaker 2: have any relationships with their parents. I mean I went

622
00:32:51,676 --> 00:32:53,516
Speaker 2: over their houses a few times to have to have

623
00:32:53,556 --> 00:32:55,956
Speaker 2: a meal, you know, for one reason or another. But

624
00:32:56,796 --> 00:33:01,236
Speaker 2: there was nothing that came anywhere close than my relationship

625
00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:02,236
Speaker 2: with Ralph and Ernestein.

626
00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:04,636
Speaker 1: There are some old Jewish people in Hyde Park who

627
00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:08,876
Speaker 1: just like calling their lawyers. They're changing their will right now.

628
00:33:09,316 --> 00:33:11,756
Speaker 1: You had been in it and now you're out.

629
00:33:11,836 --> 00:33:15,196
Speaker 2: I'm talking about my high school friends, high school friends only.

630
00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:15,716
Speaker 1: Well.

631
00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:18,476
Speaker 2: I have one final takeaway, and it's an important one

632
00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:22,916
Speaker 2: because I teach about Kenneth Clark, the famous social psychologists

633
00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:25,836
Speaker 2: who did the Doll studies in the nineteen forties that

634
00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:30,116
Speaker 2: ultimately helped to inform the story that segregation was deeply

635
00:33:30,156 --> 00:33:33,516
Speaker 2: harmful and led to the Brown versus Board of Education decision.

636
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:36,476
Speaker 1: So Kenneth Clark described, yeah, describe yeah a little bit.

637
00:33:36,556 --> 00:33:39,156
Speaker 2: So it kind of encapsulates all that we've been talking about.

638
00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:43,436
Speaker 2: So ten years later, in nineteen sixty five, Ish Kenneth

639
00:33:43,476 --> 00:33:45,676
Speaker 2: Clark writes a book called Dark Ghettos. And in this

640
00:33:45,796 --> 00:33:49,636
Speaker 2: book he's looking at the failure of integrated high schools

641
00:33:49,676 --> 00:33:52,436
Speaker 2: in New York City. And so here's a guy famous

642
00:33:52,436 --> 00:33:56,436
Speaker 2: for helping to desegregate Southern schools. But ten years later

643
00:33:56,476 --> 00:34:00,156
Speaker 2: he's like, schools in New York City are so segregated

644
00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:03,556
Speaker 2: they are also deeply harmful to not just black kids.

645
00:34:03,556 --> 00:34:07,836
Speaker 2: And here's the biggest takeaway. He said, an integrated school,

646
00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:11,276
Speaker 2: whether it was in New York or Birmingham, Alabama, was

647
00:34:11,316 --> 00:34:14,916
Speaker 2: not just about increasing literacy at test scores and what

648
00:34:15,036 --> 00:34:20,116
Speaker 2: kids learned. It was about building relationships. It was about

649
00:34:20,116 --> 00:34:24,556
Speaker 2: a social contract. That is that democracy itself depended upon

650
00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:28,916
Speaker 2: black and white people being together for long periods of time,

651
00:34:29,356 --> 00:34:32,196
Speaker 2: getting to know each other, and working together to solve

652
00:34:32,236 --> 00:34:35,796
Speaker 2: complicated problems, even if they were math problems in third grades.

653
00:34:36,116 --> 00:34:40,796
Speaker 2: It was the fundamental building block for a democratic, just racial,

654
00:34:40,796 --> 00:34:42,116
Speaker 2: egalitarian society.

655
00:34:43,316 --> 00:34:46,436
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the sense of that the schools an integrated

656
00:34:46,436 --> 00:34:49,436
Speaker 1: school is so vital to have any of this going on.

657
00:34:49,636 --> 00:34:53,836
Speaker 1: And what we know is that that doesn't even exist today,

658
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:58,676
Speaker 1: that seventy years after desegregation, we still have these structures

659
00:34:58,676 --> 00:35:03,436
Speaker 1: that keep us apart. And basically, you know, if people

660
00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:06,716
Speaker 1: are in proximity to one another, if they're in contact

661
00:35:06,756 --> 00:35:09,756
Speaker 1: with one another, that's not going to that's not enough.

662
00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:11,196
Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked about all the ways that we

663
00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:14,276
Speaker 1: have more, but that is the start that people need.

664
00:35:14,596 --> 00:35:17,636
Speaker 1: They need that start, they need that contact to begin something.

665
00:35:17,876 --> 00:35:20,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, and without it, the bottom line is you can't

666
00:35:20,396 --> 00:35:23,436
Speaker 2: build on it. There's no foundation. It's all broken. And

667
00:35:24,516 --> 00:35:25,916
Speaker 2: so this is where we begin.

668
00:35:26,036 --> 00:35:26,436
Speaker 1: Folks.

669
00:35:26,596 --> 00:35:29,116
Speaker 2: Next time you call us, who'll say, The next time

670
00:35:29,156 --> 00:35:32,476
Speaker 2: there's a proposal to do something with our schools that

671
00:35:32,556 --> 00:35:34,916
Speaker 2: open up access to them, you say, yes we can.

672
00:35:35,396 --> 00:35:37,636
Speaker 2: The next time there's a new zoning proposal to the

673
00:35:37,956 --> 00:35:42,196
Speaker 2: township officials to do affordable housing, you say, yes we can,

674
00:35:42,716 --> 00:35:45,916
Speaker 2: because those are the fundamental structures that keep us apart

675
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:48,116
Speaker 2: and make it nearly impossible to see the kind of

676
00:35:48,156 --> 00:35:51,236
Speaker 2: friendships that you and I have lived, loved and enjoyed

677
00:35:51,236 --> 00:35:51,876
Speaker 2: all these years.

678
00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:55,556
Speaker 1: Yes we can, Obama, I like that Khalil, You're loving

679
00:35:55,596 --> 00:36:00,116
Speaker 1: on some Obama. I love you man, love you too.

680
00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:09,236
Speaker 2: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of

681
00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:12,636
Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me

682
00:36:12,836 --> 00:36:15,796
Speaker 2: Khalil Dubron Mohammad and my best friend Ben Austin.

683
00:36:16,156 --> 00:36:19,716
Speaker 1: This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. It's edited by

684
00:36:19,756 --> 00:36:23,596
Speaker 1: Sarah Nix with help from Keyshel Williams. Our engineer is

685
00:36:23,636 --> 00:36:28,996
Speaker 1: Amanda Kwang and our managing producer is Constanza Gallardo.

686
00:36:29,476 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 2: At Pushkin thanks to Leitol Molad, Julia Barton, Heather Fain,

687
00:36:34,276 --> 00:36:39,316
Speaker 2: Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Greta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.

688
00:36:39,636 --> 00:36:43,396
Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the

689
00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:47,396
Speaker 1: brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely

690
00:36:47,436 --> 00:36:50,436
Speaker 1: want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong

691
00:36:50,516 --> 00:36:51,116
Speaker 1: dot com.

692
00:36:51,556 --> 00:36:54,716
Speaker 2: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin

693
00:36:54,796 --> 00:36:57,596
Speaker 2: pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at

694
00:36:57,676 --> 00:37:01,836
Speaker 2: pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on

695
00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:06,036
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen.

696
00:37:06,196 --> 00:37:08,556
Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a

697
00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:11,196
Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen even if

698
00:37:11,196 --> 00:37:12,836
Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating

699
00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:15,756
Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best

700
00:37:15,756 --> 00:37:21,836
Speaker 1: friends about it. Thank you.

701
00:37:29,036 --> 00:37:37,996
Speaker 4: Ebony and Ivory, Perfect Harmony and Perfect Time Money side

702
00:37:37,996 --> 00:37:41,076
Speaker 4: by side on my piano keyboard.

703
00:37:41,436 --> 00:37:43,676
Speaker 1: Why don't you love Me,