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Speaker 1: Lying to federal investigators. The judge told Flynn, arguably, you

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Speaker 1: sold your country out and told Flynn he could not

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Speaker 1: guarantee he would not sentence him to prison time. After delay,

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Speaker 1: Flynn took the judge's offer of postponing his sentencing. Joining

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Speaker 1: me is Jimmy Garoule, professor at Notre Dame Law School. Jimmy,

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Speaker 1: this was a case where Flynn cooperated extensively and the

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Speaker 1: Special Council recommended no jail sentence. Normally, the judge would

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Speaker 1: almost rubber stamp the prosecutor's recommendation. How unusual is this, Well,

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Speaker 1: it is. It's it's quite unusual. But I think the

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Speaker 1: judge in this case, again, Judge Sullivan, made it clear

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Speaker 1: to both parties that he viewed the particular offensere of

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Speaker 1: lying to the FBI is a very very serious crime,

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Speaker 1: and I think for two important reasons. One is, first

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Speaker 1: of all, the person who committed the lie to the FBI.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a high ranking military official, a

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Speaker 1: three star general, the former director of the National Security Agency,

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Speaker 1: and so I think the court was holding him to

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Speaker 1: a higher standard. He should have known better. He should

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Speaker 1: have acted consistent with the law and not lie to

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Speaker 1: the FBI, and then second the topic the subject matter.

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Speaker 1: This involved a lie regarding a contact communications that Flynn

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Speaker 1: had with the Russian ambassador, and it wasn't just over

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Speaker 1: any topic, but regarding Russian sanctions and apparently to the

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Speaker 1: effect that once Trump became president, that the Russian sanctions

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Speaker 1: would be lifted and this would be and at that

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Speaker 1: time this would be undermining the fact that the current president,

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Speaker 1: President Obama, had just imposed economic sanctions against Russia. So

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Speaker 1: Jimmy the judge called this a very serious offense and

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Speaker 1: said he had a great deal of non public information,

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Speaker 1: those sections of the public filings that have been redacted.

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Speaker 1: Might he also be sending a message to President Trump,

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Speaker 1: who has been talking in mob lingo about people who cooperate. Well, certainly, again,

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Speaker 1: this is in direct response to the president. The President

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Speaker 1: has been has been complaining since the initiation of the

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel investigation that this is all a witch hunt,

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Speaker 1: that there's nothing there. Well, clearly that's not the view

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Speaker 1: taken by this particular judge. This is a serious crime.

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Speaker 1: And despite the recommendations by both Defense Counsel and the

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel, this judge was prepared to send General Flynn

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Speaker 1: to jail lying to the FBI. The judge held short

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Speaker 1: hearing before the sentencing or the almost sentencing, about Flynn's

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Speaker 1: attorney's claims in a pre sentencing report that FBI agents

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Speaker 1: tricked him during their questioning, why would the defense attorneys

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Speaker 1: put their clients deal in jeopardy by saying that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think really it's that we're talking about legal malpractice here,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that lightly. Apparently, you know, both

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Speaker 1: sides were in agreement. Special Counsel was in agreement, was

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Speaker 1: recommending no jail time. And despite that, the defense attorneys

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Speaker 1: raised this issue. They wanted to have it both ways.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to be able to argue to the judge.

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Speaker 1: On the one hand, Flynn has been cooperating, he's provided

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Speaker 1: substantial assistance to the Special Council. Oh, but on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, he's the victim here. He was tricked into

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Speaker 1: lying to the FBI, and therefore he's not accountable, you know,

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Speaker 1: Therefore he didn't do anything wrong because he was tricked.

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Speaker 1: And the judge was having none of that, and he

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Speaker 1: required Flynn to admit again under oath before the court,

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Speaker 1: that he knew the lying to the FBI was a crime.

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Speaker 1: I mean, who doesn't. I mean, that's a ridiculous claim

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Speaker 1: that this top military intelligence government official did not know

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Speaker 1: that lying to the FBI was a felony offense. So

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Speaker 1: why didn't the judge just sentence him to jail time

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Speaker 1: instead of giving him this out, you know, take a recess,

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Speaker 1: think about it, because I might be sending you to prison.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you want to cooperate more. Yeah, I think he

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Speaker 1: was prepared to send him in prison. I think that

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Speaker 1: had the defense lawyers not taken taken the lead given

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Speaker 1: by the judge regarding a continuance, I think right now

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Speaker 1: General Flynn could very well be sitting in a federal jail.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that the judge wanted Flynn and

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Speaker 1: his attorneys to think about the seriousness of this offense,

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Speaker 1: maybe to stop playing games with the court as they

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Speaker 1: did with this filing before sentencing, and then to give

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Speaker 1: Flynn a chance to further justify his cooperation and his

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Speaker 1: warranting of no jail time. So Flynn provided substantial assistance,

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Speaker 1: according to Special Council with several investigations during nineteen separate interviews.

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Speaker 1: How likely is it that there's something that he's been

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Speaker 1: hiding that he can cooperate with Now, yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: we would only would only have to to speculate to that. Again,

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Speaker 1: I think it's not likely. I think, in fact, it's

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Speaker 1: highly unlikely. You would think after nineteen interviews, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know how many hours cumulatively that involved, but you

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Speaker 1: would think that at this point the Special Counsel is

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Speaker 1: convinced that they've elicited from from General Flynn all relevant

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Speaker 1: information that he has regarding ongoing criminal investigations. What kind

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Speaker 1: of message does this send to people who do special

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Speaker 1: Counsel might want to cooperate in the future, that you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll give you this deal, but wait, the judge may not. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think that I would look at it a little differently.

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Speaker 1: I think the message is, you know, lying to the

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Speaker 1: FBI is a serious offense, and no one should should

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Speaker 1: take that lightly, and no one should should just assume

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Speaker 1: that if they commit that type of offense lying to

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Speaker 1: the FBI, and then provide some cooperation, that they're guaranteed

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Speaker 1: to get out of jail free card. Clearly, this judge

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Speaker 1: sent just the opposite message. This is a serious offense

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Speaker 1: and there's a high likelihood that you could go and

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Speaker 1: go to jail. Even if you do cooperate these cases,

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Speaker 1: I have to say they're not boring their Oh he's

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Speaker 1: interesting and quite a turn of events here. Thanks so much, Jimmy.

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Speaker 1: That's Jimmy Grule. He's a professor at Notre Dame Law School.