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Speaker 1: Happy Monday. I am here. As I said to you

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Speaker 1: on the last broadcast, if Mackenzie Gore got traded, you

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Speaker 1: might have to I might be hibernating somewhere or worse.

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Speaker 1: But Mackenzie Gore did not get traded. The Nationals, in theory,

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Speaker 1: have a future. Although what that future is I guess

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Speaker 1: the theory we all have a future. The question is

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Speaker 1: is it a good future or is it a bleak future.

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Speaker 1: I have a lot more to say about the NATS.

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Speaker 1: I'm actually going to hold off and do it towards

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Speaker 1: the end of the podcast. I want to be respectful

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Speaker 1: for why you subscribe. I know some of you subscribe

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Speaker 1: because you are curious what I have to say about

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Speaker 1: the Nats, and I have a lot to say, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to assume that it is not the majority

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Speaker 1: of you on that front. My guest today is an

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Speaker 1: old friend of mine, longtime journalism pal Ron Fournier. He

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Speaker 1: spent a lot and share of his professional career at

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Speaker 1: the Associated Press, covering the Clinton White House and Bush

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Speaker 1: White House very thoroughly back in the day. Has been

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Speaker 1: in and out of journalism since then. He's an editor

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Speaker 1: in chief of National Journal at one point Crane Detroit.

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Speaker 1: He's a Michigan native. He lives in Michigan. He does

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Speaker 1: communications consulting now has a terrific sub stack that I've

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Speaker 1: been enjoying. His daughter babysited, babysat for now my senior

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Speaker 1: in college. It'll make us both feel old on that one, sorry, Ron.

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Speaker 1: And so the point is, I've known him a long time.

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Speaker 1: He is one of the smartest, makes me think, and

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Speaker 1: he's a no bullshit guy, right, And that's the whole

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Speaker 1: point of independent media these days is I think we're

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Speaker 1: all tired of the rounding of the edges, the bullshit,

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. I get it. That's why you're here.

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Speaker 1: You'll enjoy the conversation. We've been a line share Michigan,

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Speaker 1: I think Michigan. And before I get to my opener

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Speaker 1: here on President Trump and UH and the economy, but Michigan.

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Speaker 1: I believe if I, if I, if I were running

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Speaker 1: a massive newsroom these days, political newsroom, I would have

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Speaker 1: somebody already embedded in the state of Michigan. If I

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Speaker 1: were a national news outlet. Now, of course, at these days,

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Speaker 1: everybody's shrinking, so they're not doing these things. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I will tell you this, Go follow. According to Ron's

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Speaker 1: advice is go follow Chad Living good political reporter out there.

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Speaker 1: He's uh, he's somebody I do follow on on Twitter

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Speaker 1: and uh, he's uh, he's really good. He's a political

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Speaker 1: edit at the Detroit News and it is great stuff

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Speaker 1: and you will learn a lot there from him. But

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Speaker 1: the point of this is, I think Michigan is ground

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Speaker 1: zero for trying to figure out where's the country headed

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Speaker 1: politically in the short term. Where's the Democratic Party headed?

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Speaker 1: Where's the Republican Party headed? You got that three way

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Speaker 1: governor's race. I mean that's why I'm you know, is there.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those things I think that there

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Speaker 1: is a real hunger out there for something other than

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Speaker 1: these two major parties. Right, they have both lost I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Republicans are losing credibility by the day

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Speaker 1: with what they're done with the economy. The Democrats already

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Speaker 1: lost their credibility with the voters in this ping ponging.

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Speaker 1: You know, voters have been spending a decade basically voting

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Speaker 1: voting out what they don't want. They don't necessarily vote

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Speaker 1: what they want in because they don't have that option.

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Speaker 1: But they know what they don't want, so they keep

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Speaker 1: voting out people. But each time you vote out one

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Speaker 1: party or the other party, you realize poist doesn't get

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Speaker 1: that much, doesn't get any better. Maybe the rot is

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Speaker 1: in both parties to a degree. And Mike Duggan's candidacy

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Speaker 1: in Michigan, I think, is going to test whether the

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Speaker 1: appetite is Their polls always show that there's independent interest

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Speaker 1: in independent candidates, candidates, there's an interest in a third party,

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Speaker 1: not somebody that is an arm of Elon Musk. As

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Speaker 1: we're learning in the polls. Don't you attach Elon Musk's

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Speaker 1: name to third party? It goes down the tubes. Nobody

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Speaker 1: wants that you take. But the actual idea of a choice.

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Speaker 1: We always want choice. You ask, do you want choice?

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Speaker 1: Do you want one phone company? Now we want two

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Speaker 1: phone companies. You have two phone companies, now we want

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Speaker 1: three phone companies. Right, whatever choices we have, we always

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Speaker 1: want more, Right, That's that's sort of the human experience.

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Speaker 1: So we always think we want more choices, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's the that's why I always I think I

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Speaker 1: think in a weird way, free markets and capitalism is

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Speaker 1: like inane. It's human nature. Right, we don't. We we don't.

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Speaker 1: We always want more options, and I think in this case,

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Speaker 1: but we do so in theory. We always say yes.

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Speaker 1: But then by the time election season comes around, we figure, well,

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Speaker 1: I might like this third party, but they have no

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Speaker 1: chance of winning. I got to vote, you know, I

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Speaker 1: got to vote for the essentially the least bad option.

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Speaker 1: If Dougan wins that race, I think it opens the

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Speaker 1: mind and aperture to others. It's suddenly it's one of

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Speaker 1: those if you break that ceiling right, you're able to

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Speaker 1: actually win. And it's you know, we've Alaska's had an

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Speaker 1: independent governor off and on, but really it hasn't really

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Speaker 1: happened since Ventura in ninety eight, right where in that

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, even Angus King is kind of

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Speaker 1: a quasi Democrat, right, he cocks with the Democrats that

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Speaker 1: the SEC raises money for him, uses Zach Blue, you know,

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Speaker 1: he really kind of independent name only, right, Lisa Murkowski,

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Speaker 1: independent name only. You know, they've proven they don't need

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Speaker 1: their party labels to win, but they are who they are, right,

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Speaker 1: So this would be I think that monument. This is

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Speaker 1: an un presidential swings day. I think the Democratic primary

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Speaker 1: in that Senate race. Basically it's outside inside somebody somebody

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Speaker 1: with congressional experience who's seen as a really rising star,

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Speaker 1: Haley Stevens, somebody another rising star, Molly McMorrow said, the

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Speaker 1: third candid in there that has been endorsed by Bernie Sanders.

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Speaker 1: So you just I think the Democratic primary for the

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Speaker 1: US Senate and you'll hear Roun Fournier talk. So we

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in Michigan because I just

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Speaker 1: think as Michigan is the is the answer key this cycle. Okay, yes,

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Speaker 1: forty nine other states are going to have important elections.

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Speaker 1: Michigan's is the answer key to what does it all

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Speaker 1: mean nationally? For frankly, with both parties on that front,

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Speaker 1: open governor seat, open Senate seat, a couple of open

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Speaker 1: house races, because of all of those already, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is it is where the action is going to be.

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Speaker 1: So this will be the first of many visits I

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Speaker 1: do a dive on Michigan. But let me go to

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Speaker 1: my topic of the morning, and that is this is

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Speaker 1: this say with President Trump, is this a summer swoon

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Speaker 1: or is this the beginning of the end? And I

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Speaker 1: know what you think in the beginning of the end,

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Speaker 1: right little eye roll there, because the economy has turned

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Speaker 1: against him and all of his theories are starting to

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Speaker 1: essentially blow up in his face. Yes it's early. Yes

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Speaker 1: they're not ready to admit this, but there's something happening here.

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Speaker 1: And and I know, I know what you may think, Eh,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's always this prediction, Oh, this is going

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Speaker 1: to end them, etcetera, etcetera. But let's sort of let

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Speaker 1: me set the stage here and then we'll talk and

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Speaker 1: then you can give me your feedback at the end

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Speaker 1: of my case here. So later this week he marks

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Speaker 1: day two hundred in office, and I've been had vacillating

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Speaker 1: about this. Is he in the middle of it? Just

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Speaker 1: a summer swoon, which we've seen plenty of presidents go through.

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Speaker 1: The summer is cruel in Washington, both in the humidity

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Speaker 1: and to presidents. It's very off in July and August

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Speaker 1: sucked politically for them. Part of it is you've got

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Speaker 1: cranky members of Congress and all of those things, and

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Speaker 1: just you know, it can be bad, and you have

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Speaker 1: people are sort of out to lunch. People aren't putting

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Speaker 1: their best foot forward even working in the PLA because

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Speaker 1: they're all thinking about their own vacations. You got kids

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Speaker 1: starting school and all this stuff. So there's just a

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Speaker 1: lot of distractions. So the opportunity to make mistakes happens

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Speaker 1: quite a bit in July and August with these politicians.

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Speaker 1: So there's a strong argument that we could quote unquote

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Speaker 1: be in a summer swimp. But it's also possible that

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Speaker 1: this is this is the beginning of the end of

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Speaker 1: his presidency. Doesn't mean he won't serve all four years,

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Speaker 1: but really, you know, humor me here a minute, and

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Speaker 1: I know some of you may roll your eyes up

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Speaker 1: that Trump arrangements in critics always want the fall to come,

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Speaker 1: you know, the TDS folks say, always looking for signs

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Speaker 1: of a collapse. You know, ever since he insulted John McCain,

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Speaker 1: that's the end of his political career, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: the critics been saying Donald Trump this, Donald Trump that.

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Speaker 1: But the fact is he has you know, political reality

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Speaker 1: has bitten him in the past COVID and political reality

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Speaker 1: may bite him in the moment with the economy, and

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Speaker 1: it happens to every president, particularly seven second term presidents.

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Speaker 1: But let me tell you a fascinating trajectory that I

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Speaker 1: think we're on here and why Trump and his political party,

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Speaker 1: his allies, and his own strategists need to have a

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Speaker 1: reality check here that this could this could end quickly.

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Speaker 1: Let me take you back to August twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: basically the exact moment we're in right now. Four years ago.

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden was riding high just before the withdrawal from

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan hit an approval rating over fifty percent, which in

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Speaker 1: these days that's like being that's like being in the

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Speaker 1: sixties back bick in the eighties and nineties, the stimulus

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Speaker 1: checks were out the door. People were happy about that.

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Speaker 1: Promises made, promises kept on that one. The vaccines got

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Speaker 1: finally got out the door in a fairly smooth process,

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Speaker 1: and then came Afghanistan. The decision to get out wasn't unpopular,

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Speaker 1: that was very popular. Public wanted out. But it was

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Speaker 1: the execution. It was chaotic, it was incompetent, and it

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Speaker 1: was the kind of failure that sort of punched Biden

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Speaker 1: in the gut because it hit him at a core

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Speaker 1: perceived strength, right which was foreign affairs. You know, it

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Speaker 1: was one thing about Joe Biden's resume. It screamed that

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Speaker 1: he had experience in foreign affairs. People may disagree with

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Speaker 1: his takes, but he you know, he was a skeptic

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan early, so you know, he felt very in

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Speaker 1: a little ways, he felt a little cocky. I think

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Speaker 1: many of his foreign policy mistakes were due to his

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Speaker 1: own cockiness, because he because his take was, ended up

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Speaker 1: being right about Iraq, ended up being right about these things.

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Speaker 1: So I think there was a lot of confidence that

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Speaker 1: voters have that hey, it's not going to screw that up.

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Speaker 1: And then he screwed up. He screwed up his best subject, right,

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Speaker 1: this was the core. This was the one thing voters

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Speaker 1: didn't think they had to worry about with him was

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Speaker 1: foreign affairs, and he screwed it up. And what that

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Speaker 1: does when you know, this is why political you know,

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Speaker 1: those in the dark arts of politics like to go

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Speaker 1: after They always say, go after someone's perceived strength. You

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Speaker 1: get rid of their Perceif you hit them, you undermine

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Speaker 1: their perceived strength. And ever it's a house of cards

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Speaker 1: after that. Right, it's like pulling the right leg on

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Speaker 1: it in a right little wood blow. I got a Jenga.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, the whole thing comes crashing down

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Speaker 1: and he never recovered. He sat, he got under forty

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Speaker 1: five percent, and he never recovered. He had moments of

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Speaker 1: sort of dead what turned out to be essentially dead

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Speaker 1: cat bounces. You know, the midterms were not about him,

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Speaker 1: but he wanted to make it about him. He was

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Speaker 1: trying to use it as a way to jump start

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Speaker 1: his political problems. But he never recovered from that moment

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Speaker 1: he got his big bill passed, never recovered from that moment.

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Speaker 1: It just it was this weight on him, and to me,

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Speaker 1: it was proof that voters never bought Joe Biden. They

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Speaker 1: voted for him, they hadn't really bought into him. What

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Speaker 1: they did know is Donald Trump had to go because

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Speaker 1: his mismanagement of COVID was the firebule offense. And this

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Speaker 1: is why he's got to be careful here. He has

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Speaker 1: been able to bullshit his way out of all sorts

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Speaker 1: of problems over the years, but every once in a while,

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Speaker 1: when reality catches up to the Trump spind machine, it

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Speaker 1: implodes on itself. COVID was a was a perfect example.

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Speaker 1: He just couldn't talk the virus out of you know,

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Speaker 1: he couldn't spin away from the virus. The virus was

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Speaker 1: spreading the bodies were piling up. He couldn't do it,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you know he kind of knew it.

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Speaker 1: Every once in a while he was he hated, he

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Speaker 1: hated to do what he had to do and listen

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Speaker 1: to the health experts. And at the same time he

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Speaker 1: was quietly wanted credit for Operation Warp Speed. But you know,

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Speaker 1: he just he just botched it all and there was

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Speaker 1: an incompetency to him and so to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was understandable voters and this was always the big mistake, Right,

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Speaker 1: Democrats think voters throughout Trump for all of his other misdeeds, No,

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Speaker 1: they never have. They knew his misdeeds. And this is

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Speaker 1: something we all have to sort of come to grips

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Speaker 1: with which his voters knew exactly who they were electing

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, okay, and they voted for him anyway.

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Speaker 1: So it was just like with Bill Clinton, while the Republicans,

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Speaker 1: you know it kept going after character. With Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 1: the voters knew who they were electing in nineteen So

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Speaker 1: those issues were baked in, right, he was going to

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Speaker 1: get where they were mad when he messed up on

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Speaker 1: the on the on the job itself, that's when they

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Speaker 1: would turn on Bill Clinton and and I think that's

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing here, Okay, in twenty twenty four. Why

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Speaker 1: did he win? You know, it's at the retribution campaign.

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Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes I think those those of us

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Speaker 1: that are that are in the world of political communications

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Speaker 1: right now, in the world of political reporting and analysis,

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Speaker 1: you know, you see the you know, the loudest voices

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Speaker 1: are the most anti Trump, right, and the loudest voices

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Speaker 1: are the most pro Trump. But what gets drowned out

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Speaker 1: is those that sort of decide everything, those in sort

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Speaker 1: of the uncomfortable middle. And it's a larger when I

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Speaker 1: when I refer to the middle, I refer between the

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Speaker 1: thirty yard lines. Right there are sort of pragmatic Democrats

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Speaker 1: and pragmatic Republicans who have uncomfortably stuck to their party

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Speaker 1: out of loyalty and out of out of a little

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Speaker 1: bit of of you know, they've not left the party

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Speaker 1: because they don't know where else to go, as I

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Speaker 1: discussed with the independent stuff, and they certainly don't trust

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Speaker 1: the other party. But for the most part, they don't

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Speaker 1: like this, right, and that you know, so that that

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Speaker 1: that discomfort, that that that sort of overall Paul, I

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Speaker 1: think sometimes blinds us from like what is what is

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Speaker 1: actually having an impact on what doesn't right? And I

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Speaker 1: think there's been way too much focus on Epstein. I

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Speaker 1: don't think. I think there's so much of his personal

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Speaker 1: character flaws that are baked in and people kind of

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Speaker 1: tune them out. They already know, Yeah he lies all

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Speaker 1: the time. Yeah he won't admit that he did this,

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Speaker 1: and won't admit yes all that, Yes he's paid for play. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's a kleptocracy in a weird way. It's like all

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Speaker 1: that's kind of baked in because there was a transaction

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Speaker 1: that a slice of voters made in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: with him. They looked at Biden and Harrison thought, boy,

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Speaker 1: this economy sucks.

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Speaker 2: I hate it.

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Speaker 1: Yes I have a job, Yes I have money in

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Speaker 1: my pocket, but cost make too much money at the

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Speaker 1: grocery store. So they were pissed. They were pissed the

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Speaker 1: rising cost living and you know, as it turned out,

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Speaker 1: a large chunk of that was COVID driven, right, But

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Speaker 1: when you would compare the economic record, people didn't like

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Speaker 1: the Biden economy, and Harris was running on that versus Trump,

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Speaker 1: who successfully convinced the voters that the first three years

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Speaker 1: of his presidency should be what you focus on. Don't

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Speaker 1: focus on the COVID here. And for the most part,

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Speaker 1: voters never have punished Trump on the economy over the

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Speaker 1: COVID issues that you know, hey, that was COVID's fault,

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Speaker 1: but well we don't know, you know, So in a

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Speaker 1: weird way, they sort of gave him a pass on

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Speaker 1: that because anybody that was that was a literally once

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Speaker 1: in a century type of thing. But there was sort

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Speaker 1: of a mythology about his economy. And what I think

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Speaker 1: you have to remember here is is it most presidents

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Speaker 1: the economy that they get credit for in that first

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Speaker 1: term credit or blame is an inherited economy, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: George H. W. Bush inherited a stalling economy, and over

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Speaker 1: time he had to deal with the recession and it

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Speaker 1: was recovering by the time he was running for reelection,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't matter. And Bill Clinton inherited a recovering economy,

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Speaker 1: and then his theory of the case jump started the economy.

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Speaker 1: And arguably he presided over a moment in history, the

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Speaker 1: Internet boom that also sort of created a surge. But

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Speaker 1: he inherited, right, George W. Bush was inheriting a slowing

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Speaker 1: economy from Clinton. He had to deal with a bit

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Speaker 1: of a downturn nine to eleven, and it gave him

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Speaker 1: a pass with voters. Everybody understood nine eleven had an

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Speaker 1: extra different impact, you know. But then, of course it

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Speaker 1: was in the the economic crash happened on his watch.

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Speaker 1: He was president for the entire eight year period before then,

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Speaker 1: and so it really I think damaged the economic brand

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Speaker 1: of the Republicans, particularly that wing of the Republican Party,

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Speaker 1: which is why that wing of the Republican Party didn't

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Speaker 1: you know, is not in charge today. And Barack Obama

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Speaker 1: inherited a faltering economy and by the time he handed

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Speaker 1: it off to Trump, it was recovering. That was a

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Speaker 1: recovering economy in those last two years of Obama, and

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Speaker 1: he inherited that his tax cuts. We don't know to

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Speaker 1: this day whether those tax cuts were good for the

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Speaker 1: economy or not, because essentially COVID happened, right, So it's

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Speaker 1: one of those moments where everybody who believes everybody can

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Speaker 1: believe what they want to believe with what those tax

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Speaker 1: cuts did. Those tax cuts did nothing but hurt that,

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Speaker 1: you know, raise the deficit, or those tax cuts were

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Speaker 1: going to pay for themselves, but we'll never know. But

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Speaker 1: either way, he got those tax cuts. So there was

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Speaker 1: this perception by that economy it was humming along during Trump.

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Speaker 1: That's what people had a memory of. So that got

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Speaker 1: him this election. And so he got this and he

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Speaker 1: had inherited a pretty decent economy, and in some ways,

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Speaker 1: because it's healthy, because he inherited a healthy economy, could

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Speaker 1: withstand some of his experiments for a few months, his

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Speaker 1: teriff uncertainty, and the question was, well, how long can

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Speaker 1: it withstand it? How long can it withstand it? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think we're finding out. So here we are. It's

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Speaker 1: now Trump's economy start to finish. Right, He's got everything

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Speaker 1: he's wanted. He got his tax reform two point zero passed.

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Speaker 1: He has implemented a tariff heavy industrial policy that you know.

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Speaker 1: The problem he's got is that if he's right about

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Speaker 1: his theory of the case of reindustrializing America using this

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Speaker 1: tariff regiment, it's going to take years for us to

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Speaker 1: feel the positive effects of it. But he got what

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Speaker 1: he wanted there. He's got a compliant Republican Congress. It's

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Speaker 1: basically going to hand him I think even if the courts,

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Speaker 1: and they will. I think the courts are going to

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Speaker 1: take away his terff authority. I really do, and it's

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Speaker 1: going to be and that's going to be fascinating when

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Speaker 1: it happens. Okay, when the courts do you take away

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Speaker 1: his TERRFF authority. He's going to go back to Congress

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Speaker 1: and essentially asked for this Congress to give him authority

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Speaker 1: to do what he's doing, and we, the compliant Republican Congress,

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Speaker 1: for the most part, is likely to go along. But

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Speaker 1: how close to the midterms are we when that moment happens, right?

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Speaker 1: Or is it something that happens after the election? Right?

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Speaker 1: How long does it take to go through the process.

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Speaker 1: I think, if I'm if I care about this economy,

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Speaker 1: I want it to hurry up and find out what

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Speaker 1: the rules are. So hopefully this hits expedite. Hopefully we

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Speaker 1: find out before the end of this calendar year. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know, right. We know the courts can sometimes

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Speaker 1: go on its own schedule. So I have this thesis

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Speaker 1: that he's going to make Republicans walk the plank and

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Speaker 1: vote essentially for tax pikes for American consumers via terriffs.

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Speaker 1: Because he's going to want this authority back, and I

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Speaker 1: think those members of Congress don't want to vote for it.

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Speaker 1: So that's going to be a moment that could be

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Speaker 1: coming in the next three to six months. I really

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Speaker 1: believe the courts. Everything you see in this court, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is just what he's using as as sort of

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Speaker 1: this thread of constitutional authority to set these tariffs is

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Speaker 1: an emergency Act that was passed in the seventies, So

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Speaker 1: it is it is unlikely the courts are going to

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Speaker 1: let this hold up, but our congressional Republicans really going

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Speaker 1: to not give Trump what he wants, so they But anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's I'm going to put that in put a pin

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Speaker 1: in that because we don't know yet, and that's over here.

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Speaker 1: What we do know is he has the authority to

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Speaker 1: set the tariffs in the moment. Right And here's what's happened.

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Speaker 1: The economy is getting worse, and everybody knows it, everybody

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Speaker 1: feels it. We've seen it in the polls. And now

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Speaker 1: for the first time, we have a jobs report that

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Speaker 1: reflects all of the predictions and dire warnings that mainstream

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Speaker 1: economists and the left and the right said, we're coming

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Speaker 1: and here we are hiring is slowing, business investment is

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Speaker 1: paralyzed thanks to the tariff uncertainty. We still have an

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Speaker 1: unaffordable housing situation, both due to an inventory is and

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Speaker 1: high interest rates. And now we've got this job's report

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Speaker 1: that shows the unmistakable signs of a potential contraction down

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Speaker 1: the road. Of course, Trump doesn't want to own any

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Speaker 1: of these results. He's doing what he does best. He's

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Speaker 1: blaming others, blaming the Fed, blaming the poor person that's

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Speaker 1: in charge of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, trying to

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Speaker 1: find a Biden holdover to blame because he can't accept that.

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Speaker 1: But the data doesn't lie, and we've been seeing it

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Speaker 1: in the polls. Right, His numbers have been getting worse

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Speaker 1: on the economy. People are upset about the cost of living.

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Speaker 1: So he can say what he wants all he wants.

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Speaker 1: People's lived experiences matter here more than whatever he's saying. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are some of his bases going to give him

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Speaker 1: a chance. Right, He's got farmers that are like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll try the tariffs because we have trust in Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: But for the most part, lived experience is the greatest

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Speaker 1: reality check. No matter what the spin machine in that

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Speaker 1: White House is thrown out there. And that's why I

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Speaker 1: go back to this moment mirroring August of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: and it may mirror more than Trump realizes. Biden's presidency

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Speaker 1: never never recovers from the collapse in public confidence, and

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Speaker 1: this could be his Afghanistan moment. This is Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan moment. On the one issue that voters thought was

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Speaker 1: our core competency managing the economy. They sort of accept

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Speaker 1: all the character flaws, but hey, the deal maker, and

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Speaker 1: you know what Trump one point, I was pretty good

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Speaker 1: for the economy. That was what people do? You know

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Speaker 1: because everybody's memory hold COVID, Right, that's pretty good. Well,

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Speaker 1: he's doing it, and it's turning into a disaster. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of slow motion disaster, right, because you know, the

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Speaker 1: stock market is sort of artificially being pumped up by

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Speaker 1: all this AI investment. He himself has thrown money at crypto,

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Speaker 1: throw money at a investment, and that has sort of

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Speaker 1: created these sort of artificial It's sort of like a

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Speaker 1: hot air balloon. Our economy is like a hot air

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Speaker 1: balloon with a whole bunch of holes in it, and

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Speaker 1: he's given it weird stimulus, right, you know, legalizing the

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Speaker 1: more he's made that of a legal market. That's kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, created the illusion of wealth in some

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Speaker 1: people's hands. Then you have all this AI investment in

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Speaker 1: speculation that's you know, but as we see, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really help. Both crypto and AI do nothing to create

428
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: jobs zero right now. If anything, you know, the investment

429
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: in AI data centers is just maybe some construction jobs,

430
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: maybe some tech support, but not a lot. Right, This

431
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: is more computers. Essentially, it's the making of robots to

432
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: replace human beings. So it's not going to have a

433
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: positive impact on any sort of jobs report on that front.

434
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: So here we are, and here's by the way, Donald

435
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 1: Trump did believe the job support. How do you know

436
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: this well, as my friend Douglas Holtech and he's my

437
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: guest this week on Sunday Night with Chuck Todd on Newsphere,

438
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: take a look at it. He he himself was the

439
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: who used to get the jobs report first for anybody,

440
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: and then it was his job to brief the president.

441
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: He was George W. Bush's chief economic advisor, and he

442
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: it's a terrific walkthrough of how the process works anyway,

443
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: he noted, he goes, they knew he knows the timing right,

444
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: since he knew how it worked, that they get there. Basically,

445
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: they knew the results of this job's report on Thursday

446
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: at two o'clock, and he made some moves that you know,

447
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: they delay some tariff implementation, you know, some of it

448
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: they delayed a week, some of it they'd lay twenty

449
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: four hours. All of it, as he said, was a tell.

450
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: They knew it was a bad report and they wanted

451
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: to get out ahead of it. They basically didn't want

452
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: the markets to like double crash on them, right, having

453
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: a liberation day times a thousand happened to them. Markets

454
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: still didn't like what they heard, crappy jobs report, but

455
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: it would have been piled on right with all of

456
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: even more tariff problems on that stuff. So it is

457
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: it is so they believe their numbers. They just didn't

458
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: like that somebody admitted it publicly, which is of course.

459
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 1: You know, look, we're going to go down this road.

460
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: But I'm very you know, we if we start, we

461
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: already have. You can't believe anything that comes out of

462
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: HHS right now, Okay, I can't. I'm sorry. I have

463
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: to say it that way. There is nothing. The single

464
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: least credible person in the cabinet is Robert F. Kennedy Junior.

465
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: Everything they're doing right now in vaccines and on this

466
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: is absolutely should be a five alarm fire. I've said

467
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: this before. I have no idea why it isn't, but

468
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 1: this is so you have no scientific data whatsoever you

469
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: can trust out of HHS because of Kennedy. Okay, that's alarming.

470
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: And now we know already the next FED chair is

471
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: not going to be independent because Donald Trump is not

472
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: going to appoint somebody that pledges to be independent. He's

473
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: made that clear. And as Douglas Holte can note it,

474
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: the last time we had a FED chair that was

475
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: not independent, that was captured by a president, it was

476
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon and Arthur Burns. And Richard Nixon and Arthur

477
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: Burns orchestrated the worst ten years arguably twenty years for

478
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: the American economy since the Great Depression in the seventies.

479
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: It was a disaster. Okay, I look at I'm sorry,

480
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: you know the most you know, the big traumatic thing

481
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: for many people in the settings. What's having a waiting line?

482
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: We are rationing gas we're waiting in line for gas.

483
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: We couldn't go buy gas on certain days in the

484
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: United States of America. That was the ridiculous economic policies

485
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: of Nixon and the and they basically stagflation the first

486
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: time we dealt with it. And now this is something

487
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: stagflation which is both inflation and high unemployment. That is

488
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: a disaster. It takes forever to get out of it.

489
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: We had to have twelve percent interest rates to get

490
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: out of it. So here we are. So make no mistake.

491
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: If they've already made data uncredible in the scientific, heal

492
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: and health community right now, AHAs, now they're going to

493
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: start messing with that. We have the census. I mean

494
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: this is look and you know, every country that has

495
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: politicized their central bank, their economy has gotten worse. Best

496
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: example of that is, according to my friend Douglas holteakn

497
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: is Turkey. Okay, so this is a recipe for economic disaster. Okay,

498
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: it's borderline kleptocracy for the government. It is a full

499
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: on kleptocracy right now with this Republican Party and how

500
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: Trump forces people, you either pay a tribute to him

501
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: or you get out right. You don't get to do

502
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: business with the president. You don't get to do anything

503
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: without giving him a tribute. And corporate Americas figured this

504
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: out right, That's that's that's what's been happening left and right.

505
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: Academia has decided that it's easier to just pay the

506
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: tribute than to fight for your First Amendment rights in

507
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: the in the in the courts. But that's where we are.

508
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Reality is caught up and it's

509
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: the lived experience. This is why. And I get it.

510
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: We've seen him with we've seen him get out of

511
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: all sorts of political problems, but they were they were

512
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: political problems that the public already baked in. Screwing up

513
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: the economy was the one core competency's supposed to have.

514
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: And if this, this is what makes this the most

515
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: lethal problem he's got politically, because if credibility and if

516
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: there is no credibility among voters on his ability to

517
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: manage the economy, that's the Jenga piece that collapses the presidency.

518
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: It's not Epstein, it's not you know some you know, uh,

519
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: bad intelligence reports or the Pentagon or anything like that.

520
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: It is pocketbook, right. It is how people feel about

521
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: the economy. Look, Richard Nixon only left office because the

522
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: economy was terrible. Republicans only end up walking away from

523
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: him finally in Washington because the economy is terrible. The

524
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: economy had been better. I don't think they walk away

525
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: from what he did. And that's the that's the lesson

526
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump needs to have. You know, he's basically

527
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: he's basically the godson of the Nixon era in so

528
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: many ways, right, And two of the most important figures

529
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: of the Nixon era that made it through to the

530
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: Trump era, Rogerstone and Roger Ales. Ales isn't with us anymore,

531
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: but Roger Stone is. That's how he's learned politics, right,

532
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: That's how it that that that just so the DNA

533
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: of Nixon is all there, and he's making all the

534
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: same mistakes. He's making all those same mistakes. But the

535
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: core competency that he was hired for was the economy.

536
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: And this is why this becomes And I'll tell you

537
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: at some point, presidency's end. You still preside, but presidency's end, right,

538
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: George W. Bush, Katrina on top of Iraq and that

539
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: Terry Schivo business. Basically, by the start of six his

540
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: presidency was over. Didn't mean he still had to manage

541
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: the war. He got some foreign policy things done, but

542
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: his governing ability and his ability to persuade the public

543
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: done right. Joe Biden, just I just outlined it. His

544
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: presidency ended a lot sooner than we thought, but it

545
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: may have. Actually his ability to talk to the country

546
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: and persuade the country appeared to end after Afghanistan. For

547
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, even though he survived impeachment, he never got

548
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: to govern his second term. He never got his governing

549
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: second term. Trust me, you hear from old Clinton allies,

550
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: and they'll remind you of that over and over again.

551
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: Very similar. Doubt Trump complains that he lost his first

552
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: term to impeachment, and for Reagan it was we're on contract,

553
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: even though he personally stayed fairly popular or in contract

554
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,719
Speaker 1: basically ended his ability to govern, you know, to advance

555
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: new initiatives on that front. So that's how and he's

556
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: in a second term. That's how powercrit and so the

557
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: real issue is going to The really interesting thing to

558
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: watch is as people experience a worsening economy, what do

559
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: the Republican elected Republicans do? How long do they stick

560
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: by him in what and many of them Remember, this

561
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: is a Republican Party divided in three. As I always say,

562
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: about a third of them are true believers in this

563
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: economic protectionism policies. A third of them don't believe in

564
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: it at all. They're the old free market libertarians and

565
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: they are fighting it right. That's Ran Paul is sort

566
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: of the voice of that, Chuck Grassley to a lesser extent.

567
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: And then there's this middle section who all know these

568
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: tariffs are terrible, but they just want to They're just

569
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: the survivors in the Republican Party. This is Lindsay Graham

570
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: and Marco Rubio who have found their way to the

571
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: protectionist wing of the You know, somehow are their isolationist,

572
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: protectionist mindset, whether they really believe it or not. How

573
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: long can they stick with this when they actually see

574
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: that their initial gut instinct was right, this was going

575
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: to be a calamity. That's and that's why I go

576
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: back to the only thing that could keep our economy

577
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: from just totally cratering into recession is the courts. And

578
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: if the courts successfully take the tariff authority away from

579
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: the White House, it could serve as a stimulus to

580
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: the economy. And the question is how unpopular or popular

581
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 1: is Trump in that moment, Because if he's more unpopular

582
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: than he is today, I don't know if he can

583
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: get that Republican party to walk the plank and give

584
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: him teriff authority just to keep doing what he's doing

585
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: with the economy. Is there a chance that his theory

586
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: the case is right, by the way, it's a question

587
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: I asked Douglas Holtek in a longtime economists, you know,

588
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: and even he said, he said, look, there's a ten

589
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: percent chance. You can't rule it out that his idea

590
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: of this sort of US against the world type of

591
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: trade policy can be successful, that somehow we can grow

592
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: while the rest the world on the backs of the

593
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: rest of the world and the rest of the world stagnates.

594
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: That was true in the nineteenth century. In the twentieth century,

595
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: I don't think in this globalized world, I don't think

596
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: the rest of the world is just going to let

597
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: us do this. We've had a few allies that have

598
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: let him let us bully our way into some uncomfortable

599
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: trade deals. But we'll say I'm skeptical there. That said,

600
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: one thing we do know about Trump is that you

601
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: know he does he does eventually jump ship from bad ideas.

602
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 1: The question is when does he do it and how

603
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: long will it take him to jump ship. He jumps

604
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: ship on Obama birtherism basically in the last week of

605
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: his presidential campaign, because Kelly and Conway convinced him if

606
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: he would finally admit that that was all bullshit, that

607
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: there'd be some voters that might come his way. Whether

608
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: that's true or not, I don't know, right, there's so

609
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: many things happened in those the last eleven days, you know,

610
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: the Komi business, all that stuff. We will never one

611
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: hundred percent know. But he jumped ship when he thought

612
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: it would mean he could win. He would COVID was

613
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: a great example of watching him constantly sort of vacillate

614
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: between listening to scientists and not and then listening to

615
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: his base and listening to a scientists. And he tried

616
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: it was time. He was trying to give everybody a

617
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: little bit of something for a while there. All right,

618
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: I'll green light operation warp speed, and yes, I hate

619
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: these lockdowns and that, you know, so at some point

620
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: reality he won't. He realizes people feel a crappy economy, right,

621
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 1: and we're all feeling We're all seeing prices continue to rise.

622
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: We all see that houses, our neighbors' houses are staying

623
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: on the market a lot longer than we thought it would.

624
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: You know, everybody's experiencing what is and we're now seeing

625
00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: all these companies raise this up. So everything ends or

626
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: you know, every look, the Trump Bear is going to

627
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: end badly. I'm a believer in my line. I live

628
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: by the mantra everything ends badly or also with an end.

629
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: It's a line from the movie Cocktail. The Trump Bear

630
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: isn't going to end without pain, and it may be

631
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: it's economic pain that sobers up folks and realizes that

632
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: that could be what brings his because he's now he

633
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: is he is the dog that caught the car. He's

634
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: had this belief in tariffs that goes back forty years,

635
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: and he's now thrown him around. I think he only

636
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: loves it because it makes him kind of like a

637
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: mob boss. Right, everybody has to pay a tribute to him.

638
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: You want to get a tariff exemption, you got to

639
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: see the President. You want a lower teriff freight, you

640
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: got to see the president. That everything comes through him.

641
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: I think that's the other sort of reason he likes

642
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: it right. It consolidates power into him, so it's his

643
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 1: and the voters are going to know if the economy

644
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: is bad, there's only one person to blame, and it

645
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 1: ain't the chairman of the Federal Reserve. All right, I'm

646
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: a sneak in a break and when we come back,

647
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 1: the single most important state in twenty twenty six for

648
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: the midterm elections, a deep diving that what's going on

649
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: in Michigan with my friend Ron Fortier. So joining me

650
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: now is an old friend, a one time neighbor who's

651
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: actually daughter at one time babysat my kids. But we

652
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: sort of professionally have been working around each other, kind

653
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: of working together even though we never worked at the

654
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: same organization. At the same time. It's Ron Fourtyer, who

655
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: has done a lot of things in the world of

656
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: journalism and is is now his own entrepreneur. He's a

657
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: native of Michigan and comes these days, is based in

658
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: Michigan after a stint in Washington, d c. And before that,

659
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: what sort of got him into the world of political reporting,

660
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: arguably was being the bureau chief in Little Rock. When

661
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: a governor of Arkansas suddenly became a national figure Ron,

662
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: It's good to see you, my friend.

663
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 2: Good to see you, Bud here. You were here in

664
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: Detroit the other day.

665
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: I was local news in crisis, and look, we've got

666
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: a lot of thoughts on media, but sort of the

667
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: primary conversation I want to have with you is all

668
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: things Michigan. I was just talking with Dave Weigel, as

669
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: listeners will know, and I said, you know, when you

670
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 1: look at all the storylines of where America is headed, right,

671
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: You've got whether it's is there room for an independent,

672
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: You've got the three way governor's race with what's going

673
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: on there, what's going on inside the Democratic Party outside

674
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: or insider. The Senate primary there between Stevens and Tomorrow

675
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: definitely has that insider outsider feel. Throw in the other

676
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: candidacy and it's the Progressives versus you know, it's both

677
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: in generation right, it's a.

678
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: Generational argument, it's an ideological argument.

679
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: You know, whatever. Whatever. You could just plant yourself in

680
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: Michigan in twenty twenty six and start writing about what's

681
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: going to happen in twenty twenty eight all over the place, right,

682
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: appetite for independence, where is the direction of the of

683
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, and can the Republicans ever win without Trump, right,

684
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: the fact is we still the only Republican that can

685
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: win statewide in Michigan has the last name of Trump.

686
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: If you you know, it was a I think is Weigel.

687
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: It's been since twenty fourteen that a Republican not named

688
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 1: Trump has been able to win anything.

689
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: And then we have a governor, governor who's on the

690
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: national and right right, who's got a scandal hanging over

691
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:52,479
Speaker 2: our heads.

692
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, so let's start with a simple way of

693
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: looking at this. And this is sort of your sweet spot.

694
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 1: You grew up in this state, you live in this

695
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: state now, your family, I mean, you're sort of your

696
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: your DNA is Michigan. What makes it these days the

697
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: probably our best microcosm, and that stuff changes, right you know,

698
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: We've we've been there when Florida was the microcosm. We've

699
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: been there when when Ohio is the microcosm, And right

700
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 1: now it feels like it's Michigan.

701
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 2: Why I think, I think Michigan has always been a

702
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 2: great bell weather if you believe that politics is at

703
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: the uh at the is the tail that's not being

704
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: wagged by the dollar dog. If you believe that, to

705
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: understand how politics is changing. You have to understand how

706
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: people are changing. So Michigan has been a place for

707
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 2: the last generation or two where all these cross currents

708
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: of change, UH, economic change, demographic change, technological technological change,

709
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 2: globalization are making life so difficult uh for michigan Anders,

710
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 2: and UH their institutions are. I have been letting them

711
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: down by the boatload for the last generation or two,

712
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 2: and that has created a very disruptive, angry, frustrated electorate

713
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 2: that swings back and forth, desperate, so desperate for change,

714
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 2: I'll do desperate things like voting for Donald Trump. So

715
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: it's not always been as much of a you know,

716
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: the Florida Florida, Florida every cycle, but I tell you

717
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 2: it helped me be a fairly good political reporter, even

718
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: when I was living in Washington, coming back here six

719
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: or seven or eight times a cycle talking to folks

720
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: in northern Michigan. In twenty fourteen, when I first wrote

721
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump could become president, it was because of

722
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: the makeup of the people of the state, that they're

723
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: very reflective of how people are being let down by

724
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: their politics and they're looking for something big and different.

725
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: You know.

726
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: One of the one of the hallmarks of your career.

727
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: I feel like, at least since I've gotten to know you,

728
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: is you've always been trying to figure out what you're missing, right,

729
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: And you know you're missing something like this, the left

730
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: right paradigm of political coverage in Washington you can't avoid

731
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: as much as you know when you're sitting as the

732
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: AP Washington correspondent or the AP buwer chief or you're

733
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: moderator of Meet the Press. At the end of the day,

734
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 1: those are the two that you know we're I always say,

735
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: Washington's a company town, and same way Detroit's a company town, right,

736
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: Washington's a company town, and you know it's the d's

737
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 1: and the rs. And yet you and I have both

738
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: been knows there's this other entity out there, there's the disaffected.

739
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: They're the ones that decide who temporarily has power. You know,

740
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to bring up a book. I believe it

741
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 1: was a book, Applebee's America, right, and we're trying to

742
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: that goes back probably now twenty years or pretty close

743
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: to twenty years. But in some ways I bring it

744
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: up because I watch what Mike Dougan is doing in

745
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: the governor's race, and it is like, can you can

746
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: you have a conversation with voters without the overhang of

747
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: the baggage of the two parties, And you've constantly been

748
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: looking to have that conversation. Mike Duggan's trying to have

749
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: that conversation, and yet I feel like it's harder than

750
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: ever to have a conversation with voters without the overhang

751
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 1: of the two major parties.

752
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 2: It is because so many voters have used a new

753
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 2: technology is self isolate themselves in their intellectual bubbles and

754
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 2: their biases. But Dougan is onto something here. There's not

755
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: very many political operatives in the state whould agree with me.

756
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: But right now, Chuck, I'm telling you Mike Duggan is

757
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: the front runner in this race. First of all, he's

758
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 2: been running for governor for fifteen years. He's been going

759
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: around the state with this incredible PowerPoint presentation that he

760
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 2: puts together every year. First for that big Macanaw, that

761
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,959
Speaker 2: conference and Macanaw that I know you go to where

762
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 2: he touts Detroit's revitalization. Well, he's been delivering that in

763
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: rural towns all over the state for ten years. He's

764
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: really tapped into this idea that both parties are letting

765
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,479
Speaker 2: you down. You need politics that can get something done.

766
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: Look what we've done in Detroit. Then there's something that's

767
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 2: interesting going on. All these Trump voters, my neighbors and

768
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: friends in northern Michigan, these folks who first told me

769
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: that they were so desperate they might vote for this

770
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: clown on the Apprentice, they're starting to take a serious

771
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 2: look at at at dug In. And this isn't just anecdotal.

772
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: There's polls to back this up, but anecdotally when I'm

773
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 2: hearing Chuck is these are folks who grew up in Detroit,

774
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 2: black eyed did or whose hears up and up there,

775
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: and they moved up there, Chuck, there is This is

776
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: a literal fact. There is a retired fire Detroit firefighter

777
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: or retired police Detroit police officer in every county in

778
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 2: the state of Michigan.

779
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: How about that interesting? So there was a Detroit DNA

780
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: in almost the same way New York City DNA infects

781
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: the entire state of New York.

782
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: There is too many people. There's too many people. A

783
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: million people in the state in nineteen sixty and now

784
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 2: more than a third of them live north of Detroit.

785
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: So they have an affinity for Detroit. There's a little

786
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, racial anime is still in the north of

787
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 2: eight miles stuff, But they have an affinity for Triton.

788
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: Here's this pudgy white guy from the suburbs got elected

789
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: when the Democratic machine was so opposed to him ten

790
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 2: years ago that they ran a candidate named Duggan against

791
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: him on the Democratic primary. He had a run as

792
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: a writing candidate, my doug.

793
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: Day in the primary to win and a right he

794
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: one a is a write in. This is like, I

795
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: don't write this guy's chances off as an independent. I'll

796
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: voice some skepticism in here to push back at you

797
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: in a minute. But I but I But you got

798
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: to know Duggan's history to realize that this guy's done

799
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: done the impossible before.

800
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: Well and working with partnership with business leaders and nonprofits,

801
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: he's done the impossible. He's helped bring Detrope back for bankruptcy.

802
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 2: But as a politician he's out of the Democratic machine,

803
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: which is the Aerne here. Oh and he's got a

804
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: lot of baggage.

805
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 1: His son ran Biden's Michigan campaign in twenty twenty and

806
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: was in charge of Biden and Harrison twenty twenty four.

807
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 2: And he's no saint. There's a lot of skeletons and

808
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: the closet that will come out that. You know, the

809
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 2: opposition research is going to be huge. But he's done

810
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 2: some remarkable political things. And what he's done in Detroit

811
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: isn't just a nostalgia thing playing with folks on the right,

812
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 2: but it's also how many politicians do you know in

813
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: this state, in this country who've actually got something done?

814
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: Who said I'm going to get the garbage picked up sooner,

815
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: and the garbage gets picked up sooner. Who says I'm

816
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: going to have the ambulances arrive on time and they

817
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 2: started arriving in time. Who says I'm going to improve

818
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 2: bus service, and improve bus service? Is Detroit where it

819
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 2: needs to be?

820
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: No?

821
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 2: Is he a perfect man?

822
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: No?

823
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 2: Are the rules rigged against an independent candidate?

824
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: Hell?

825
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: Yes, but this guy could win it.

826
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting that the impression I got last

827
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 1: year being at Mackinaw and then a couple of times

828
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: that I have visited places in Michigan that weren't Detroit.

829
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: You know, before I've got I've had family in the

830
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: southeastern part of the state for years. I've been I

831
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: used to go to Monroe, Michigan every summer for about

832
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: ten straight years. That's where all the.

833
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 2: State you know, Monroe, you know the state.

834
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and Monroe really is you know, I mean Monroe, Monroe,

835
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: shock Absorbers and lazy Boy. That was the heart and

836
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: soul of the economy there. And what you've noticed over

837
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: the last thirty years was animus towards Detroit by everybody

838
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: else in Michigan. Right, there was an anti Detroit vibe

839
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: and in fact, in fact, if you were a candidate

840
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: for office, the Democratic Party was looking for candidates not

841
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: from Detroit, and the Republican Party was running against Detroit

842
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: to win statewide. And it worked for some time. It

843
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 1: was the counter no difference than you'd see candidates run

844
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: against New York City my home state in Florida, candidates

845
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: would run against Miami. You know, you don't want whatever

846
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: your and something since dug it and it's like, I

847
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a little bit of this is the

848
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: Detroit Lions, and a little bit of this is you know,

849
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: I got to give them a little credit too. But

850
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: the positive vibe about the Detroit great Brandt and you

851
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: have to go and visit Michigan and have been and

852
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: have been there when it was and understood the anti

853
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: Detroit vibe that used to That's not how the place

854
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: feels anymore.

855
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: Like the first come here in c Detroit. It's remarkable, No,

856
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: it is.

857
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: I was just there last week, and you know, I

858
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 1: love that they just put all the stadiums in the

859
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: same place. That's what Philadelphia did, and walked down.

860
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: Look, it's one hundred and thirty eight square miles. My

861
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 2: old neighborhood is the third World. You know, there's still

862
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: some really durable poverty, and illiteracy is still in Hunger

863
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: is still endemic. But it's been remarkable what this city's done.

864
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: You mentioned that the Lions people forget the NFL Draft

865
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: was here last year. There was. There was hundreds of

866
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: thousands of people downtown, including a shitload of for example,

867
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: of Green Bay Packers, fans from the Upper Peninsula. Okay,

868
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: folks who have not been in Detroit for twenty thirty,

869
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: forty fifty years and had a stereotype of member right,

870
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 2: but two stereotypes. One is the racially tinged, ruined porn

871
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: but the other is the Detroit they grew up on

872
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 2: or their parents told them about and it's that nostalgic Detroit. Now,

873
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: it's that gritty Detroit. It's that we can do anything,

874
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: including by the way, maybe elected independent, independent governor, that

875
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: we can do anything. We can go over up from

876
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: the bootstraps that is Detroit, that maybe Mike Douggan can

877
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: turn around that history you're talking about. There hasn't been

878
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: a mayor from Detroit elected governor, you know, over a century.

879
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: But this is a standard and that's been standard big

880
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: city politic. It's been very red. Rendell was the first

881
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: Billy mayor to ever get elected statewide. No New York

882
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: City mayor to this day has been able to become

883
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 1: governor of the true Yeah, so it is there is

884
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: this sort of weird bias at times against the big

885
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 1: especially when you're a one when there's just one city

886
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: that dominates first, it's usually racial. Certainly it is almost

887
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: the east of the Mississippi. It's almost always been black white.

888
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 1: But it is flipped.

889
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 2: It could be an asset for Dugan.

890
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 1: Well, it's a sense that like I get the sense

891
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: people root for Detroit now right, there was a sense

892
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: of like it wasn't like oh you did this to yourself,

893
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: who cares. Now it's like, no, hey, they're actually doing

894
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: the hard work. Let's help.

895
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: And the trumpiest, most racially conflicted anti Detroit people I've

896
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 2: known my whole life in this state are now saying,

897
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 2: I want to give this dug and guy a look.

898
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: And I'm looking forward to going down to he tried

899
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 2: to see a ball game or or go see a

900
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: play or Yeah. So it's it's pretty remarkable how things

901
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: have changed.

902
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: And yet I look at Discovernor's race that I think, boy,

903
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 1: you know, usually when there's an independent that has a chance,

904
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 1: it's because one of the two parties has completely failed.

905
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: In fairness to both parties. Here, I think, you know,

906
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, you know, forget your own personal leanings. John James,

907
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 1: Jos Benson, Mike Douggan. Those are three highly qualified candidates.

908
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: You're like, those are reasonably sort of convened what I

909
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: would call conventionally qualified.

910
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: That's that may be their problem though, Chuck, Yes, I think.

911
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: One is a congressman, one Secretary of State in some

912
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 1: ways almost two part of the system.

913
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 2: And then that's what he's playing against. Now. Benson's raising

914
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: out of the money, not as much as Douggan. He's

915
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 2: out raised everyone. She fits the Michigan The conventional wisdom

916
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: is Benson should be able to win because she's she's

917
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: a woman in the state that Whitmer won. She's she's this.

918
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: Is a state that elects women quite a bit. Jennifer Granholm,

919
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, Bless the socket, Debbie Stabenow. You know this

920
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: is not there's ceiling the break here, right. That ceiling

921
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: got broken a long time ago in Michigan.

922
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 2: But but the parties, both parties here are weak and

923
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 2: ineffective and aren't getting anything done. So, yeah, she's got

924
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 2: a good resume. James has got a good resume. He's

925
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: got a reputation over be someone who doesn't work hard.

926
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 2: And this is a this is a big state. It's

927
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: hard to get around, and you got to work hard

928
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: in the state. Dugan works hard. I'd watch a guy

929
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: named Tom Leonard, the former House speaker, who just got

930
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: in the race and is a hard worker and has

931
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 2: got a profile. He's starting to get some attention from

932
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 2: the from the Republican money. But you know where the

933
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: Republican money is going in this race again.

934
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: Right now? Well, sitting all the non MAGA money, right.

935
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: The additional country club money, the Gary targos of the world,

936
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: and and uh.

937
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: Well it's really the world and Dan Gilbert.

938
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: Dan Gilbert, who's the big people don't know is the

939
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 2: big mortgage? Uh got Rocket mortgage?

940
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: You may know Rocket mortgage. That's Dan Gilbert, right.

941
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's that kind of that profile here

942
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 2: that is sending money Dugan's way. But so, uh, Dugan

943
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: is running against the duopoly. Ducan is running against politics

944
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: as usual. It's a pretty effective message in an independent

945
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: minded state that is looking that is so desperate for change.

946
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: It voted twice for Trump ken conventional candidate win. Yes,

947
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: but but they could be defeated. So and he's pulling,

948
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: by the way in the polls. He's pulling from the

949
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: right end the left right now. The Democrats are going

950
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 2: to have a hard time hanging the spoiler label around him.

951
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: That could change, but right now he's pulling evenly from

952
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 2: both sides.

953
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: Right, I've seen that. And it does feel as if

954
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: though that his biggest problem is the further you get

955
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: away from Detroit, the the harder he's got to work

956
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: in order to be considered on the same page. Like,

957
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: because this is the tyranny of running as a third

958
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: party candidate, which is eventually people's habits, well, do we

959
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 1: vote D or R. Honey, oh yeah, we're de voters

960
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: and you know, and they pull the lever. Governor's races

961
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 1: are slightly different in that sense, but the major parties

962
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: still have such a pull. I mean, I always go back.

963
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 1: It was a great four way remember when Kinky Friedman

964
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: ran for governor in Texas. But it wasn't just you

965
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: had Rick Perry. You had a former Republican running as

966
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: an independent, Scott McClellan's mother, if you remember to really

967
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: put it, yeah, and she was sort of getting all

968
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: the Democratic money. She was the trial lawyer, ex Republican

969
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 1: getting scooping up money. There was an underfunded former one

970
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: term member of Congress who got the Democratic nomination who

971
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: literally had no money. He finished second because there were

972
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: so many people just used to going into the polls

973
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: and pulling the d lever. He was outspent by both

974
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,280
Speaker 1: Kinky Friedman and the other candidate, I believe, and yet

975
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: the power of being one of the two major brands

976
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: was enough for second place. And so that's that's my

977
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: sort of skepticism about Doug. And how does he overcome

978
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: that that aspect, which is which is not easy.

979
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: The only way, it's a very good point, The only

980
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 2: way he could overcome it if if this this anecdotal

981
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: somewhat backed up by polls, is this this analysis I'm

982
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: giving you of of the state being filled with people

983
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 2: who have an affinity for Detroit and who hate politics,

984
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 2: hearing from a guy who is saying I've done it before,

985
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: I fixing this before. And they will hear from Mike Doug.

986
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 2: And he will raise enough money to be heard, and

987
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: he'll work his butt off to be here. He'll travel,

988
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: you know, to every mody club in the state.

989
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 1: I think he has to make the case that Gretchen

990
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: was a failed governor. Now maybe he won't be afraid

991
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: to make it. And what is the case? I mean,

992
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: that's the thing what makes yeah, I.

993
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,399
Speaker 2: Gotta be careful. I gotta be careful here because I'm

994
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 2: a support of hers and and and I like her personally,

995
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: but there's always a case of it make against incumbents.

996
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 2: First of all, in this day and age, we're the

997
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: third highest unemployment rate in the state. Uh. She does

998
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 2: have very high approval ratings, But I think in this environment,

999
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: there's a bubble there that could hit, especially as she

1000
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 2: gets closer to being a lame duck, and there is,

1001
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: you know, an emerging scandal kind of bubbling out around

1002
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: out there. Her one of her biggest donors got a

1003
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 2: twenty million dollar grant through the Michigan Economic Development Corporation

1004
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 2: with no strings attached. And now her fellow Democrat, another

1005
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: to your point, female leader in the state, Dana Nessel,

1006
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 2: the head of the Attorney General's office, is running an

1007
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: embezzlement investigation into the administration. She subpoenaed and they rated

1008
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 2: one of Governor Whitmer's agencies. It hasn't gotten a lot

1009
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: of attention from Detroit Free Press. The Detroit News is

1010
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 2: all over it, right, and if and the Whitmer folks

1011
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 2: are not in front of the story, if they're not careful,

1012
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: it could become a national story, and it could be

1013
00:55:55,920 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: an anvil. So you can't just assume that, just like

1014
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 2: I'm not assuming Doug is going to win, you can't

1015
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: you can't assume that Doug in won't have the ability,

1016
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 2: and for that matter, Benson won't have that ability or

1017
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: even the need. Benson being the Democrat one of the

1018
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,959
Speaker 2: Democratic leaders that they won't be able to and even

1019
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 2: need to post off of Whitmer.

1020
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I mean, if you're Jocelyn Benson,

1021
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: I think it's tough to run against Whitmer.

1022
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 2: Right now it is Chuck, but it might not be

1023
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 2: a year from now.

1024
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting.

1025
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you know, we got we got to look

1026
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: around the corner of these things, and where is Whitmer

1027
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 2: going to be six months from now and and again

1028
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: in the climate where one thing that unites voters is

1029
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 2: they're tired of the status quo. I just don't think

1030
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 2: it's going to work to say I'm going to do

1031
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 2: it like she did. She's going to have to separate

1032
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 2: herself somehow from gumnor Whitmer. To me, the question is

1033
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 2: how much is she going to need to Is it

1034
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 2: just hey, I'm my own I'm my own person, or

1035
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 2: is it I will do things radically different from her times.

1036
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,720
Speaker 1: So one of the let me give you a lefty

1037
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 1: argument that I've heard against Whitmer that by extension would

1038
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: go against the current speaker that I guess is thinking

1039
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: about jumping into the Senate race. I think or or,

1040
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: which is simply if you compare Whitmer to Walls right.

1041
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: Both got there. You know, both had unified control of

1042
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: their legislatures. Here's what Walls did, and it was sort

1043
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: of a progressive wish you know, he checked off a

1044
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: lot of progressive wish lists. Whitmer did not. Now, I know,

1045
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: the argument I'd be making if I were in Whitmer's

1046
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: shoes is, hey, we're a moderate state. We're not. You know,

1047
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: we weren't elected to do this lefty wish list. We

1048
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: were elected to do this.

1049
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 2: But I did, and I did take the lead on

1050
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: on abortion right.

1051
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: Yes, but the argument I've heard that the that the

1052
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: left might make is too cautious. Didn't you know, didn't

1053
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: sort of she had power. You know, if you if

1054
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: you're not going to use power when you get it,

1055
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: what's the point of having it?

1056
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: You just sound like what you sound like, Mike Duggan.

1057
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems to be they left the argument against

1058
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: Whitper that is, that is.

1059
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: An argument that could be made against Whitmer and good Stick.

1060
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: It's the kind of argument you could hear Mike Dougan doing.

1061
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: It's certainly the argument you could you could hear from

1062
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: the right. And if I'm Benson. If I'm the Lieutenant

1063
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 2: Governor Gil Chris, who's also in that Democratic army, right,

1064
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: I'm looking to make that argument partly just by default

1065
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 2: that again you've got to run against the status quo

1066
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 2: in American politics. But number two, I do think there

1067
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 2: is some air in her approval ratings that that might

1068
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 2: be seeping out here the next few months.

1069
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I mean Wimer has just had a tough

1070
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: six months, hasn't she. I mean when you look at

1071
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: the Trump where where you know? To me the photo

1072
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: that will you know? Sometimes you know there are certain

1073
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 1: images and moments that you realize, oh my god, that's

1074
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: going to stick with you forever, for better or for worse. Right,

1075
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: In fact, I think there's a new one with Trump,

1076
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: the drop golf ball, right that that what else do

1077
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: you need to explain Donald Trump's presidency and the and

1078
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 1: the idea just that that's it a lack a lackeyp

1079
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:21,919
Speaker 1: shooting for him a million words, not a thousand words,

1080
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: that's a million words. Her hiding behind the folder like

1081
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: it is just a you're like boy, if that doesn't

1082
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: like scream, you're not in command, You're afraid to lead? Right?

1083
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: What and it's like it's one of those I don't

1084
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: know how you explained it away.

1085
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, on the policy side, you got to

1086
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 2: give her credit for recognizing that her job was to

1087
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 2: be governor, not to be running for president.

1088
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 1: What's the promise she made voters. She made voters that hey,

1089
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:57,439
Speaker 1: I'll work with whoever's president Michigan. That's right.

1090
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 2: She got us a new air wing from Trump at

1091
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: the Selfage Air for a space here in Macomb County.

1092
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: She got some slicing off of the terrorists for the

1093
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 2: auto industry. But you know, politics is perception and it

1094
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: says everything you're saying plus something else. The first test

1095
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 2: I think a presidential Canada has to pass. And I

1096
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 2: saw Bill Clinton pass this even before his big DLC

1097
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: speech in Cleveland in ninety one. It's having the right

1098
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: people around you, recognizing that the people who made you

1099
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 2: governor aren't going to make you a president. Governor with

1100
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: m know, I love the people around her, they're good people,

1101
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 2: they're good public servants. But she never should have been

1102
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: in that room. And then when she walked in that room,

1103
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:49,880
Speaker 2: or when they were walking into the room and realized

1104
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: it was a news conference, somebody should have thrown their

1105
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 2: body in front of her, you know, and then she

1106
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 2: walked out of the room and came back in. Well,

1107
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 2: you know that's political malths practice times too. Could you

1108
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 2: mentione Bill Clinton walking into that ambush without a plan

1109
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 2: and if he if he found himself in that ambush,

1110
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: would he not have found himself away out of it?

1111
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 2: Or an Anne Richards? You know, this isn't a gender thing.

1112
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 2: It's a it's a political athlete thing. But hiding behind

1113
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 2: a folder is.

1114
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: It'scas in the tank. I'm sorry, that's what it is.

1115
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: It's caucus in the tank. Now here's the thing about

1116
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: Governor Whimer. I've always wondered if Governor Wimmer really wants

1117
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: to become president. She really doves love the state, she

1118
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: loves the job she has, she might have her eye

1119
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: on something else. I'm not convinced that she that she's

1120
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: going to run the next cycle. If she really wanted

1121
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: to be president, she should have stepped up early in

1122
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: the very twenty four cycle called primary Biden and she

1123
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 1: knew you know what, I think she'd be president. Now, yeah, no,

1124
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: I had this, I had the exact collage. I've had

1125
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: this conversation with Gavin newsom, I said, you know, in fact,

1126
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: I thought the only way he could ever get become

1127
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 1: president is to actually, like, you're not going to win

1128
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: an open race for the presidency as the former mayor

1129
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: of San Francisco, but you might as the dragon slayer

1130
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: right in a primary, right like that might be your only,

1131
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: your only path to it.

1132
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 2: Without naming names, she was urged privately by people who

1133
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,680
Speaker 2: admire her and who could see that Biden should not run.

1134
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 2: She was begged to get in it and told this

1135
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 2: is your window. And I think she decided not just

1136
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: that this isn't my window, but maybe this isn't a

1137
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 2: job I want. She didn't tell me that, her people

1138
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 2: haven't told me that. I'm just I'm just reading between

1139
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 2: the lines here.

1140
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: Well, I could tell you this. Nobody's The only person

1141
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: to get elected president being risk averse was Joe Biden,

1142
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: and in my lifetime, like most every other elected president,

1143
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 1: good point had to take took a real risk that,

1144
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: in some form or another that conventional consultants would have said,

1145
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 1: don't do it. Right, Obama was told not to run.

1146
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: You know, I always thought Hillary Clinton was too risk averse.

1147
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: In fact, had she well, it's she'd have been president

1148
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,840
Speaker 1: if she'd run an O four. But she didn't have

1149
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: the guts to do it. Then I understand, but it

1150
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: was it was she would well, that was probably her window.

1151
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: Obama knew if he waited, he probably never gets elected.

1152
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: And Bill Clinton, everybody said, don't run against this guy, Bush?

1153
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 1: And Bill did you know? I want to go to

1154
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton here a minute, because you were there the

1155
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: last time the Democrats had a real fight about its direction.

1156
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: And a question that I that haunts me is I

1157
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: don't know if the Democrats have lost enough to know

1158
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: what they do to me when you lose as close

1159
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: as they lost. There's too many it's too easy to

1160
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: tactically talk yourself into well, if we just do this,

1161
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: this or this, you know. The she lacking of Ducacas

1162
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: in eighty eight gave breathing room for Bill Clinton to

1163
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 1: make a counter argument, an argument that the DLC was

1164
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: trying to make before eighty eight was making progress but

1165
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: not quite getting there, and then really made progress after

1166
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: the shelling. I wonder if Democrats have lost enough to

1167
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 1: have the conversation they need to have.

1168
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 2: No, they haven't. They should have losing once to Donald

1169
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 2: Trump should have been enough. They lost to a clown.

1170
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 1: You know, they convinced themselves that it was oh it

1171
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: was the referees. Essentially, it was the referee. And then

1172
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 1: it's a classic case of blaming. Trust me.

1173
01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 2: Ohio State stole a national title from the University of Miami.

1174
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 1: It was the ref's fault, you know. But you know

1175
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 1: what the dirty little secret was to that game. Miami

1176
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 1: played like shit the entire game. The Ohio State never

1177
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: should have had a chance to be in the game.

1178
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 1: Is that Miami's fault? Is it the ref's fault? Right?

1179
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 1: And Hillary be in a shitty campaign and she shouldn't

1180
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: have been in a close enough where the refs could

1181
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:40,800
Speaker 1: make a difference.

1182
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 2: The Democrats have been running a shitty campaign, playing a

1183
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 2: shitty game for twenty five years.

1184
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: Chuck, Well, I'd say Obama play account R two really

1185
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 1: good national Yeah, but eight and twelve are the outline. Well,

1186
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: I'd actually say six, eight, and twelve are the three

1187
01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 1: best years for the Democrats. And they were mission you know,

1188
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: you could see it, right, they had a mission and

1189
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: they were running as different types of Democrats. They haven't

1190
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 1: done that since.

1191
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 2: The other big thing that's changed since Clinton's time was

1192
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 2: back then Democrats had to hear from people who told

1193
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 2: them you suck. Now they don't. Now they're able to

1194
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: walk around in their intellectual bubbles and tell each other

1195
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 2: we only lost by a little, a little much. It's

1196
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 2: the referees fall.

1197
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: Oh I Kamala Harris just had ninety more days.

1198
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 2: Right where now you don't have to hear the truth

1199
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 2: if you're on the left or the right. And as

1200
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 2: far as Biden goes, yeah, he's the first risk to

1201
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: averse to win in their lifetime. But he really didn't

1202
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 2: win that election. I know Trump lost it. You know

1203
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:45,919
Speaker 2: it was that by default. Yeah, But I my big

1204
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 2: fear large in politics is not just at Democrats or

1205
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 2: Republicans aren't going to learn their lesson because they're always

1206
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: winning or losing by a little bit. It's with we're

1207
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 2: always going to have these swing elections that really don't

1208
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 2: swing that much, right, Chuck, it's either side wins are

1209
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: losing by a few seats, wins are losing by a

1210
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,440
Speaker 2: few percentage points. We're not going to kind of it.

1211
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 2: We're not going to have the kind of top to

1212
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 2: bottom institutional reform, huge reform movement like we had one

1213
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 2: hundred years ago in this country unless one of these

1214
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 2: parties builds a super majority and then does something with it.

1215
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 2: So builds a super majority like Obama did in two

1216
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:23,919
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, but then get an office and use

1217
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 2: that movement to force change on the political system, which

1218
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 2: Barack Obama did not. I'm afraid where we have a

1219
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 2: duopoly that is very satisfied by by just winning or

1220
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 2: losing by a little bit and being up against an

1221
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 2: opponent who is batted up to beat, and we're not

1222
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 2: going to have the kind of categoricalism and politics we

1223
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 2: do not just to wake up one party that they

1224
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 2: need to do better, but for us as people to

1225
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:54,240
Speaker 2: realize we deserve better and we have to demand better,

1226
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 2: and we need we need to reform those political systems,

1227
01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 2: the structures, the institutions to ange politics and make this

1228
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 2: country survive another couple of years.

1229
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: Anybody out there, you know, and I when I talk

1230
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 1: to what's interesting right now for what it's with is

1231
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 1: anytime I interview somebody running for governor and it hasn't

1232
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: mattered whether it was Jocelyn Benson and the politics and

1233
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 1: brose event, or it has been Rob sand in Iowa,

1234
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: or it's been David jolly in Florida. I'll ask them,

1235
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 1: who are some model governors? You know who in the

1236
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 1: first name out of their mouth is Andy Bashier and

1237
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 1: the second name out of their mouth is Josh Shapiro,

1238
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: and then after that it's a grab back. But the

1239
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: two governors I hear the most about are Bashir in Shapiro.

1240
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,840
Speaker 1: Do you see Bill Clinton in any one of them?

1241
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 2: Now I'm a little bit biased because you know, I

1242
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 2: watched Clinton up close.

1243
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 1: I thought, I mean, you were there, you were the

1244
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: little rock bureau chief, which really, I mean you were

1245
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 1: on Clinton starting with eighty six was it eighty six? Yeah?

1246
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 2: Yeah? And he was an incredibly accessible governor, so I

1247
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 2: literally followed him around the Capitol getting a PhD in politics.

1248
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 1: And Hillary Clinton too. You had an incredible relationship with

1249
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 1: her for a while.

1250
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 2: I did. I had a great working relationship with both

1251
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 2: of them. But no, I just don't see. Look, I

1252
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 2: understand what the appeal people see in both of them.

1253
01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 2: They're very, very good communicators. They've got a lot of

1254
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 2: done in their states, but I just don't see them

1255
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 2: as as transformational. I just don't see them as quite

1256
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 2: the political athlete that Bill Clinton was, who really loved

1257
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 2: policy and it was great at politics and lived at

1258
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 2: the intersection. There's a senate candidate here. We haven't moved

1259
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 2: to the Senate here in Michigan. I'll put on your radar.

1260
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 2: Everybody's talking about mcmurrow, who's my state senator and a

1261
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 2: talented politician and someone who really understands story modern storytelling.

1262
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 2: And everybody misfamiliar with Haley Stevens, who's the direaling of

1263
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 2: the uh D s c C of Schumer in the

1264
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:03,719
Speaker 2: in the political class.

1265
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 1: Could be a kiss of death if she's not careful.

1266
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yes, yes, but there's a third candidate there

1267
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:12,120
Speaker 2: that I recommend you take a look at. Abdul say Ed,

1268
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,920
Speaker 2: who's who's a medical degree from Columbia, a pH d

1269
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:22,839
Speaker 2: from Oxford. He ran for governor in the Democratic primary

1270
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 2: in Whitmer's first race and was beat by her, but

1271
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,799
Speaker 2: learned his lessons. Hugely ambitious, but the kind of ambition

1272
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 2: where he's trying to figure out why he lost and

1273
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 2: what he needs to do to do better. Great communicator, young,

1274
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 2: understands social media. He is a policy wonk. You know,

1275
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 2: he's a doctor, he's a.

1276
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 1: Scientists a lot.

1277
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 2: Reads a lot thinks a lot and knows how to

1278
01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 2: talk like a good doctor does. He's got good bets

1279
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 2: at man or right say, And that could be interesting

1280
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 2: if Malory mcmurrall doesn't emerge as the opponent to Haley Stevens,

1281
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 2: the congresswoman who who's the conventional favorite, it'd be a

1282
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 2: fascinating race between Aldusa Ed and Stevens.

1283
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,679
Speaker 1: Because you would have Ed has Bernie Sanders support already? Right, yes, sir,

1284
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 1: So you would have look at you would have left.

1285
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: You would have Bernie versus uh Biden. Basically, you know,

1286
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 1: Bernie versus Schumer. You would have Left versus Center versus Left.

1287
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: You would have Israel versus Palestines. You would have Abdul

1288
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 1: say Ed, who's a who's a very strong supporter of

1289
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 1: the Palestinian movement, and Stevens, who's a who's very proud

1290
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: and strong supporter of of Israel. You know, you're talking

1291
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: about Michigan being a template for what's happening in the

1292
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:40,839
Speaker 1: rest of the country and the rest.

1293
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:42,759
Speaker 2: Of the world. That could be a heck of a

1294
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 2: heck of a face off.

1295
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: So where does mcmarrow fit into this and are you

1296
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: do you sense that she's like I sense some she

1297
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: like she's got the outsider lane without being tagged as

1298
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: a progressive. Maybe that I don't know if that's a

1299
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:57,839
Speaker 1: positive or negative.

1300
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm conflicted about her personally. I really like her

1301
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 2: if she's a neighbor. I just saw her the other

1302
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 2: day in the library with her kids. I mean, she's

1303
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 2: a great politician and a great storyteller, and I mean

1304
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 2: in an authentic way. She's really good communicator. But she

1305
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 2: just and she's raised quite a bit of money, but

1306
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 2: there's just something about it that really hasn't broken through.

1307
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:18,720
Speaker 2: And I to be honest with you, I think it's

1308
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 2: a it's a bias. I don't want any telling about

1309
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 2: what I don't want to miss. I don't want to

1310
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:24,799
Speaker 2: miss siy Ed. So a lot of people have written

1311
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,720
Speaker 2: him off, and I'm keeping my eye on him. So

1312
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,320
Speaker 2: maybe I'm just not you know, I'm balancing it out

1313
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 2: by not not falling in love with her candidacy. There's

1314
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 2: there's three really good candidates on the Democratic side. One

1315
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 2: of them is going to emerge to run against Rogers,

1316
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 2: Mike Rogers, who's almost for sure going to ruin the

1317
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 2: Republican nomination. If it's Stevens. It's going to be a

1318
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 2: repeat of the Slockins Rogers race that slock can barely

1319
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 2: want almost and Stockin's a better politician than Steven's, which

1320
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:52,640
Speaker 2: is not fair and Stevens because Slocken is an A

1321
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 2: plus politician and it's an i'll do if it's if

1322
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 2: it's say ed, then you've got Bernie versus uh, Maga,

1323
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:04,879
Speaker 2: You've got young versus old, you know, boomer versus millennial.

1324
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:06,360
Speaker 1: Uh.

1325
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 2: He could win that race.

1326
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me that the Republican Party is

1327
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,519
Speaker 1: not behaving as a divided party right as it has

1328
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 1: in the in the recent past of Michigan. Both James

1329
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 1: and Rogers looks like they're going to be essentially avoid

1330
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:26,480
Speaker 1: the uncomfortable primary that is that has dogged so many Republicans.

1331
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:28,679
Speaker 1: Are you convinced that now Rogers?

1332
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 2: I think so. But James could James could face a

1333
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,240
Speaker 2: tough race from Leonard. Watch Tom Leonard.

1334
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,640
Speaker 1: You do think that you know it is would he

1335
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 1: hit him from the left of the would he hit

1336
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 1: him from the business community or from the MAGA right.

1337
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 2: From the business community, which you know you could you

1338
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 2: could write that off. But look at James is not

1339
01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,720
Speaker 2: a hard worker. James has a reputation for being an

1340
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 2: empty suit. James, He's an on paper candidate. I know

1341
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 2: a lot of the there they look great on paper.

1342
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 2: He's an on paper candidate, and Entergy is an on

1343
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 2: the ground candidate. Just don't write them up. It's it's

1344
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:05,280
Speaker 2: it's he.

1345
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,639
Speaker 1: Sounds like you think that if what if a if

1346
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,679
Speaker 1: one republic you wake up, you go in to a coma,

1347
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: you wake up day after the election day, I tell

1348
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: you one Republican one the statewide, you would assume it's Rogers,

1349
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 1: not James.

1350
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 2: If you told me I want to be Rodgers, Yeah,

1351
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:17,719
Speaker 2: oh yeah, definitely.

1352
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:20,200
Speaker 1: Why do you lose the last time.

1353
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 2: He ran against a generational candidate? Slockin is really good.

1354
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 2: Slockin is really good. Slockin's position to run for president Now,

1355
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 2: I'm convinced you.

1356
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,760
Speaker 1: Are sooner than we think. You think if Whitmer doesn't,

1357
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody in does feel like there's some deference

1358
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 1: to Whitmer, at least for now. You're I mean, obviously,

1359
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 1: you know Barring, you know things can change quickly in politics.

1360
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: But well, yeah, does she show deference to Whitmer for

1361
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 1: twenty eight or do you think of Slotkin, is that

1362
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 1: interested this or in her?

1363
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:51,720
Speaker 2: For one? Has I already suggested, I'm not. I don't

1364
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 2: think Whitmer runs in twenty eight. I think Whitmer, mister window.

1365
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,479
Speaker 2: I'm not convinced Whitmer wants to be president. Whitmer is

1366
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 2: going to be another former governor in twenty two eight.

1367
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 2: I like Whitmer. I think she'd been a good governor.

1368
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:09,719
Speaker 2: But no, I if I had to pick one Democrat

1369
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 2: who's going to run for president twenty A be Slocking again.

1370
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:15,599
Speaker 2: You talk about windows interesting Slocking. Slocking doesn't mind taking risk.

1371
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 2: She took risk her whole career. You know she was

1372
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 2: she was an intelligence officer. You know, she's trying to

1373
01:14:20,520 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 2: figure out the third way for the Democratic Party. And

1374
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 2: then she's young, she's ambitious, she's smart. I could see

1375
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 2: running for the White House one of the things that

1376
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:33,479
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm just making this up now. Her

1377
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 2: people have told me this. I don't know. I don't know.

1378
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:37,160
Speaker 2: I'm not a reporter anymore.

1379
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 1: But but you're just one of the You just you

1380
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: did your ten thousand hours. I think you're an expert.

1381
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 2: That's right.

1382
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:48,040
Speaker 1: I guess the question I would have as on Duggan.

1383
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: You know, if he wins, when you win a swing

1384
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 1: state like Michigan, immediately right, whoever the governor is, Right,

1385
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: if John James is governor, he's the number one draft

1386
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 1: pick on running list, right for the Republicans, right Vance James,

1387
01:15:03,479 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you got to pick him. Right, We

1388
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: know that one hundred percent if Dugan went. Now, you know,

1389
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 1: I'm I'm torn on this. I think we live in

1390
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 1: an environment where when you and I were first covering politics,

1391
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, the idea of running in the midterm and

1392
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 1: then winning and immediately turning around and running for president

1393
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: would be punished by the electorate. But I do think

1394
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 1: this is an electorate so desperate for new and different

1395
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 1: that if new and different it wins in a place

1396
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 1: like Michigan, that suddenly there's there's a whole bunch of

1397
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:41,280
Speaker 1: people going. You know, I've always wondered if we could

1398
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 1: have an alternative to the duopoly? Why not him? Now,

1399
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 1: to me, you've got to do something before you become

1400
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 1: the Why not him? Do you sense that kind of

1401
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: ambition in Dugan or not.

1402
01:15:54,600 --> 01:15:57,160
Speaker 2: He's a very ambitious man. He went to got where

1403
01:15:57,160 --> 01:15:59,320
Speaker 2: he is. If he wasn't ambitious I don't know if

1404
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,639
Speaker 2: he has a site in the White House, but I'm smiling,

1405
01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:04,840
Speaker 2: chuck because my last job in journalism was at Crainey

1406
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 2: Detroit Business. I was publisher of that publication. In a

1407
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen I think I wrote a column that he

1408
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:15,920
Speaker 2: should run for president because of what I'm saying about

1409
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 2: him now, but more importantly, when I'm saying about the

1410
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:22,480
Speaker 2: electric now in a state of politics, and listen, let's

1411
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 2: put everything together. We've been saying, you need to know

1412
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:26,160
Speaker 2: what your window is. You got to take a risk

1413
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 2: if you want to be president, Doug And why wait?

1414
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:32,160
Speaker 2: People are desperate for change, or so desperate they do

1415
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 2: desperate things. If an electorate is capable of electing Donald Trump,

1416
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 2: I'll the capable electing a former Democratic mayor of Detroit

1417
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 2: who's not an independent. Sure, I mean, don't rule anything out.

1418
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 2: Is Dougan ambitious enough to make a run for it?

1419
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 2: I guarantee he's not thinking about it now. He wants

1420
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:51,640
Speaker 2: to be governor. But if he saw a window and

1421
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 2: he knows there's a need, I wouldn't rule it out.

1422
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 2: But it's a great question. I haven't thought of it,

1423
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 2: but I sure' how I wouldn't rule it out.

1424
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: Well, that's the you know, I'm i am. It is

1425
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: so obvious to me that we need sort of a restructuring,

1426
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:08,000
Speaker 1: like you know, and we know the only thing the

1427
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: two parties agree on is preventing a third party from

1428
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 1: getting traction. It's about it these days.

1429
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 2: And a fourth party in the fifth Party. Yeah, they

1430
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,000
Speaker 2: don't want to open up politics. You know, communications have

1431
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 2: been democratized, but politics has not been.

1432
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 1: And if you look it is it seems to me

1433
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 1: we've been living in an era where there's this small

1434
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 1: group of voters who totally are dissatisfied and they just

1435
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:30,800
Speaker 1: keep voting. It's not right there. I'm gonna stop voting

1436
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 1: a way.

1437
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a huge percentage of voters who are dissatisfied.

1438
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:36,679
Speaker 2: Many of them put on their blue and red jersey,

1439
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 2: but shuck, there's a huge appetite out there. You know,

1440
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:41,760
Speaker 2: there's there's eighty percent of the public who's dissatisfied with

1441
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 2: politics it is today. Just because sixty percent or sixty

1442
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 2: five percent of that eighty puts on a redder blue

1443
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,639
Speaker 2: jersey doesn't mean that a new form of politics couldn't

1444
01:17:52,680 --> 01:17:55,040
Speaker 2: drag them out of into a new form of politics.

1445
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 2: I'm sorry interrupt you, but no, no, no, no.

1446
01:17:57,560 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 1: A small group of people who are just well, it's

1447
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 1: a small group that have been willing to keep going

1448
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: back and forth right right, who say, well vote them

1449
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:06,920
Speaker 1: out now, I'm going to vote them out, and none

1450
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:08,640
Speaker 1: of them. And it's like, why do they you know,

1451
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,000
Speaker 1: why do these president? Why do both Biden and Trump

1452
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 1: immediately are a basically forty five percent or under before

1453
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 1: the end of their first six months. It's because they were, like, well,

1454
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 1: why I didn't love for that. I just didn't want that.

1455
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 2: You know, that's American politics, going back to seventeen seventy

1456
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 2: six and eighteen sixty five and nineteen thirty two and

1457
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight and nineteen ninety one. Nothing changes in

1458
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:38,519
Speaker 2: politics until it freakin does. Okay, I can't look around

1459
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:39,920
Speaker 2: the corner and tell you what it's going to be.

1460
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't particular exactly. I'm not even sure

1461
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 2: it's going to happen, but I know this. It needs

1462
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 2: to happen. We need drastic change. It can happen. I

1463
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 2: don't know what it is, but we got to stop

1464
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 2: defending the status quo. And I know you don't do this.

1465
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:56,719
Speaker 2: You're I just loved your What you write on substack

1466
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 2: is you're one of the few people who's been around

1467
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 2: a long time shock who does wave the white flag

1468
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 2: is surrender and say change can't happen.

1469
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 1: No, I mean it's the old it is. It's you know,

1470
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:09,599
Speaker 1: it's just like bankruptcy. You know, first it happened slowly,

1471
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,120
Speaker 1: then it happens quickly. You know it is you know,

1472
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: you know it's going to come. Let's talk about media leadership.

1473
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: You and I both have been in leadership positions at

1474
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:22,400
Speaker 1: traditional media companies. You at the Associated Press, National Journal

1475
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 1: in the Atlantic, myself at NBC, also at National Journal,

1476
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 1: at for for for for Stent, And I'll be honest,

1477
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:33,439
Speaker 1: I always felt like I had bosses who did have

1478
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 1: my back for the most part. Okay, you know Andy Lack, Deboraterness,

1479
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:42,120
Speaker 1: Steve Cappus. These are the three news presidents that that

1480
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:44,240
Speaker 1: that I was major, spent a majority of my time with,

1481
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:47,320
Speaker 1: and they ultimately I always thought, you know, if ship

1482
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:49,799
Speaker 1: hit the fan, they were going to defend my reporting.

1483
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 2: First.

1484
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:56,800
Speaker 1: I am stunned. I know, you could be shocked but

1485
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 1: not surprised, or is it surprised and not shocked. I

1486
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 1: don't know whatever, whatever whatever version you want to use

1487
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:05,800
Speaker 1: to that there's been first. It was when the Associated

1488
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 1: Press was was kicked out for obvious First Amendment reasons. Wait,

1489
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: nobody defended them when I see what Brendan Carr, who

1490
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 1: literally is violating the First Amendment in what they're doing

1491
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: with CBS, and no network president or no owner of

1492
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 1: a media consortium that has a news division is saying, hey,

1493
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:29,479
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this isn't you know this is this

1494
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 1: is not what what the relationship is supposed to be

1495
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 1: that it's just cowering it. I don't think they fully

1496
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 1: realize what they've done to their own journalists. I mean

1497
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 1: I don't.

1498
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 2: I don't think they care. I don't think they care.

1499
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:48,559
Speaker 2: Look our career, Chuck, spans a huge divide. The first

1500
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:50,680
Speaker 2: half of our career roughly was pre internet, and the

1501
01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:53,680
Speaker 2: second half was post internet. The first half was a

1502
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:55,880
Speaker 2: business model of.

1503
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 1: Gate keepers, and that was you know, there was there.

1504
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:01,080
Speaker 2: Was a business model that made a newspaper thirty percent profit,

1505
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:04,640
Speaker 2: and TV probably more based on the idea that you

1506
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:07,559
Speaker 2: built as an objective of a newsroom, as you could

1507
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 2: that spoke truth to power. You could create a big

1508
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:12,719
Speaker 2: audience and put a Montgomery ad or in your case TV,

1509
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:16,880
Speaker 2: a car dealership ad and print money. What happened in

1510
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 2: the early odds, early to mid adds is that business

1511
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:26,960
Speaker 2: model was destroyed by the Internet and UH newspaper publishers

1512
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 2: and TV broadcasters. The people who owned first, a lot

1513
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 2: of them went out of business. And then those who

1514
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 2: are left consolidated, corporatized and now are focused like a

1515
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 2: laser beam on the bottom line because that's what they

1516
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:44,960
Speaker 2: have to do. They there was a business incentive to

1517
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:48,120
Speaker 2: let Walter Kronkite be Walter Kronkite's. That's why they left

1518
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 2: them alone because they were.

1519
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:51,519
Speaker 1: Didn't do it because it was the right thing to do.

1520
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:53,599
Speaker 1: It did it because it was at the time it

1521
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 1: made sense.

1522
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 2: So the real problem here is the business model. Again,

1523
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 2: it's a wee the people problem. The real problem here

1524
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 2: is Americans, now that we have access to communications, now

1525
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:06,560
Speaker 2: that we're all publishers, now that we all there aren't gatekeepers,

1526
01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 2: you know, Nick gepers of gatekeepers been destroyed. We only

1527
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 2: want to hear information that confirms our biases. We don't

1528
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:17,640
Speaker 2: pay for news largely, and so the C suite is

1529
01:22:17,720 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 2: left at its own devices. So I'm shocked and not

1530
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:24,439
Speaker 2: surprised that after a career where like you, the AP

1531
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:29,040
Speaker 2: always stood behind our reporting. David Bradley, our former victual

1532
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:31,400
Speaker 2: boss at The Atlantic, always to buy a reporting. My

1533
01:22:31,479 --> 01:22:34,280
Speaker 2: owner here in Detroit, Casey Crane, still behind my reporting.

1534
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 2: But you could see this happening that soon somebody came

1535
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:47,640
Speaker 2: in who was willing to defy norms and hold institutions hostage,

1536
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:51,800
Speaker 2: extort them, that the C suites would collapse as quickly

1537
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,840
Speaker 2: as the college presidencies are collapsing and many other institutions.

1538
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:59,280
Speaker 2: It's sad, it's depressing, it's horrifying actually, because it's it

1539
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:02,000
Speaker 2: could be the end of the First Amendment unless another

1540
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,160
Speaker 2: business model and here I would love to talk to

1541
01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 2: you about what you're working on, unless another business model

1542
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 2: comes up, and I think it will where we can

1543
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:14,000
Speaker 2: find a way to make money again. On journalism that

1544
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 2: speaks truth to power, that punches a president in the face,

1545
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:20,439
Speaker 2: that punches a city council person in the face, that

1546
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:24,519
Speaker 2: punches a police chief in the face. What A're really

1547
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:26,759
Speaker 2: going to take though, is an American public that's willing

1548
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 2: to read news in opinions that challenge their biases, And

1549
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,599
Speaker 2: that's my big concern is, well those days ever come

1550
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:34,120
Speaker 2: back again?

1551
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I look, you know, I've the Polly

1552
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: interview I have is that if you can meet people

1553
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 1: where they are, if you can get them to trust

1554
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 1: you on stuff that's important to them in their lives.

1555
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:52,320
Speaker 1: You know, if you're the place they will get to

1556
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 1: watch their kid play sports, if you're a place that

1557
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 1: is where you find photos of your nieces and fews

1558
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:05,519
Speaker 1: at a band concert, then over time, and if you're

1559
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 1: also the place that helps them live their lives, helps

1560
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,599
Speaker 1: them save money on groceries, helps them find a cheaper

1561
01:24:10,600 --> 01:24:13,080
Speaker 1: place to take their grand kids out to dinner, and

1562
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:15,240
Speaker 1: you becoming which is what the old You know, my

1563
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:20,240
Speaker 1: whole obsession is the newspaper bundle was brilliant. By the way,

1564
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:22,720
Speaker 1: only twenty percent of people read the news at that

1565
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:25,639
Speaker 1: time too. It was there was, but there was, there

1566
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:28,520
Speaker 1: was this incredible bundle, and I think more news publishers

1567
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 1: have to think, Look, if you want truth to power,

1568
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:36,000
Speaker 1: to be even red or believed, you actually have to

1569
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:39,840
Speaker 1: be a service journalist ninety percent of the time. Ninety

1570
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:41,759
Speaker 1: percent of the time. You've got to treat the readers

1571
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 1: like customers. You've got to help them, help them navigate government,

1572
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 1: help them figure out if they need a umbrella, help

1573
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:50,240
Speaker 1: them figure out if they should take public transportation today

1574
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 1: or Uber instead of driving today. You got to help

1575
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,840
Speaker 1: them live their lives, give them away, make their life easier,

1576
01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 1: and then if they trust you to help them live

1577
01:25:00,320 --> 01:25:04,040
Speaker 1: their life, then that's how you build trust. Like, Okay,

1578
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:05,479
Speaker 1: now I got to tell you about this. You know

1579
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 1: this really popular person that you really like, he's a crook.

1580
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 2: And let me explain to you in terms that you

1581
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 2: understand that don't insult you, that don't call you stupid.

1582
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 1: Don't talk down to them either.

1583
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:19,519
Speaker 2: Right, you're onto something, Chuck, Because what's the other trend

1584
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 2: line that tracked the destruction of the business model and

1585
01:25:23,640 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 2: tracks the destruction of people's trust and participation in politics.

1586
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,240
Speaker 2: It's their lack of trust in all institutions since the

1587
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,040
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, you know nothing we trust. The piece that

1588
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:39,920
Speaker 2: you remember me writing years ago that show that all

1589
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,040
Speaker 2: of our institutions were losing trust in them. Well, the

1590
01:25:43,080 --> 01:25:45,040
Speaker 2: media is one of them. And if you could find

1591
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 2: a way where people trust the news organization, and it's

1592
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:51,280
Speaker 2: a news organization that is relevant to them in a

1593
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,880
Speaker 2: way that news organizations stopped becoming relevant years ago. I

1594
01:25:53,960 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 2: remember that you tried free press. When I was growing up,

1595
01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:58,000
Speaker 2: the left hand side of the page, the bottom column

1596
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:00,920
Speaker 2: had a hard one phone at it. I wrote a

1597
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 2: rephone at the top. You could call a number with

1598
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:05,600
Speaker 2: a problem and they would solve it and show transparently

1599
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:07,560
Speaker 2: how he solved it every day. I mean, it was

1600
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 2: service journalism on the the top.

1601
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 1: You know.

1602
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 2: You ever know the Bob Sheefer origin story?

1603
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:15,160
Speaker 1: You know, one of Bob, Bob Sheefer's you know, his

1604
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:19,160
Speaker 1: big break was a woman named Marina Oswald needed a

1605
01:26:19,280 --> 01:26:21,680
Speaker 1: ride from Fort Worth to Dallas, and she didn't know

1606
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:23,920
Speaker 1: who else to call, so she called up the newspaper

1607
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:26,599
Speaker 1: and Bob answered the phone, Oh you need a ride,

1608
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 1: I'll give you a ride.

1609
01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:29,680
Speaker 2: Right. I heard that story, but I never connected to

1610
01:26:29,680 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 2: what you're talking about. It saw the newspaper as a

1611
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 2: place to get a ride.

1612
01:26:33,439 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 1: Yes, help, And back in nineteen sixty three, you that

1613
01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 1: is what you did. That was not a crazy thing

1614
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:42,519
Speaker 1: to think today you wouldn't do it, but you went

1615
01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 1: to put back to the wood by.

1616
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 2: For that matter, Yeah, you went to done it. Most

1617
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:47,679
Speaker 2: of our careers actually you went to done it because

1618
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:49,840
Speaker 2: ethic kind of was lost even before we got into

1619
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 2: the business. Holy shit, Yeah, no it is so so

1620
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:58,080
Speaker 2: can we build? Can can can you build something like that? Look,

1621
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:00,400
Speaker 2: that's my hope that it's that it's scaled well. Because

1622
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 2: here's the other belief I have.

1623
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:05,080
Speaker 1: I don't think you and I don't think the AP

1624
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:09,840
Speaker 1: or NBC ever had natural trust with its audience. What

1625
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:13,320
Speaker 1: gave what gave NBC its audience is the local anchor

1626
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 1: in the wd IV in Detroit. What gave you trust

1627
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 1: was the Detroit Free Press and the AP and then

1628
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:23,719
Speaker 1: them running you were AP or the Grand Rapids Journal

1629
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:27,080
Speaker 1: or you know, and and when we got rid of

1630
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,519
Speaker 1: I always said, when we it's like a foundation of

1631
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:33,120
Speaker 1: a house. There's always a pillar that's doing more work

1632
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 1: than you realize. When you have a you're like some

1633
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:36,320
Speaker 1: pillars are.

1634
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:37,200
Speaker 2: Doing an analogy.

1635
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 1: And local local news was our They were the trust.

1636
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:44,160
Speaker 1: We weren't. We're too distant, you know.

1637
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:46,600
Speaker 2: I did something on sub sect the other day with

1638
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:48,439
Speaker 2: the new numbers that came out that showed how local

1639
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 2: journalism has really even decimated, and I did some thinking

1640
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:53,840
Speaker 2: about as I'm running it, and I meant this it looked,

1641
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 2: probably falsely humble, but I know that I My most

1642
01:27:57,240 --> 01:28:00,280
Speaker 2: important work was at the Hot Spring Sentinel Record and

1643
01:28:00,320 --> 01:28:02,600
Speaker 2: to a lesser extent, the Arkansas Democrat than it was

1644
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 2: when I went to Washington, because I was doing the

1645
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:06,679
Speaker 2: kind of work you were talking about. I was writing

1646
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 2: about things that mattered to people, and I would walk

1647
01:28:09,320 --> 01:28:11,799
Speaker 2: out on the street, walk to church, walk to a restaurant,

1648
01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:13,880
Speaker 2: walk to the ball field, and I'd be talking to

1649
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:19,160
Speaker 2: my readers, and you're right, with that pillar gone, No wonder,

1650
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 2: we've lost the trust. So yeah, if you could rebuild it,

1651
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 2: what better women through sports. Let me throw one more

1652
01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 2: at you.

1653
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,519
Speaker 1: This is Richard Gingris over at the Google who used

1654
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 1: to run the Google News Initiative. He made this case,

1655
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:31,760
Speaker 1: and I think it's a pretty good one. He said,

1656
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:33,880
Speaker 1: the worst thing to happen to journalism was all the

1657
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:34,960
Speaker 1: presidents meant.

1658
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:37,960
Speaker 2: Oh, man, I know you're going with us finish.

1659
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 1: But he's right, which is you know, it made every

1660
01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 1: journalist think that unless you get my scalp, you're not

1661
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:46,640
Speaker 1: doing your job, when actually ninety percent of journalists or

1662
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 1: public servants. Yeah, and when you lose the public service,

1663
01:28:50,600 --> 01:28:55,040
Speaker 1: you are there to serve the public. Sometimes that's accountability,

1664
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:58,320
Speaker 1: and you do get a scalp pardon mind, I know

1665
01:28:58,400 --> 01:29:00,800
Speaker 1: that that I apologize for those idea and meet it

1666
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:01,799
Speaker 1: in that dose terms.

1667
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 2: You know, you do get a notch on your belt.

1668
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 1: Look what I did. I telled truth to power. But

1669
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:11,360
Speaker 1: by the way, yeah right, that's the I'm too old.

1670
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:13,519
Speaker 1: This is what happens. We're too Hey, we're too we're

1671
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:15,680
Speaker 1: too old to do a metaphors anywhere that work.

1672
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:21,680
Speaker 2: But you're you're right. But I describe Look how I

1673
01:29:21,680 --> 01:29:24,679
Speaker 2: describe journalism myself. Just now, I was preaching about holding

1674
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 2: you punching leaders in the mouth.

1675
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,639
Speaker 1: And we need that. Don't get me wrong, but right.

1676
01:29:28,439 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 2: Now, it's not the central job. It's not right. It's

1677
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:31,679
Speaker 2: not the central job.

1678
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:34,519
Speaker 1: And I think that that's the disconnect, right. And in fact,

1679
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 1: I look at the current I look at all the

1680
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 1: current local news startups, and I love them. I'm you know,

1681
01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 1: I think you know, a thousand flowers balloon. Let's figure

1682
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:45,439
Speaker 1: it out. Everybody is a business model, Let's see which

1683
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:48,120
Speaker 1: ones work. My concern has been there's been too much

1684
01:29:48,200 --> 01:29:51,800
Speaker 1: journalism for journalists and not enough journalism for everybody else.

1685
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I wrote for editors my whole career. Man,

1686
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:58,439
Speaker 2: you're onto something. I wasn't as much as I want

1687
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 2: to be what we're and Burnstein guy, but but I was,

1688
01:30:02,400 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 2: you know, standing on that front road.

1689
01:30:05,800 --> 01:30:09,320
Speaker 1: I wasn't interested in Like, I wasn't thinking about how

1690
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:11,519
Speaker 1: am I helping somebody live their life? I was thinking

1691
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 1: about how am I? You know, how am I going

1692
01:30:13,560 --> 01:30:16,840
Speaker 1: to catch these guys in a bullshit moment like today?

1693
01:30:17,080 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 2: And I want to get my lead on the wire

1694
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,120
Speaker 2: in the next thirty seconds. But but yeah, I mean,

1695
01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 2: if you could bring it back to the foundations where

1696
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,040
Speaker 2: we're helping people, especially the time when you go back

1697
01:30:27,040 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 2: to you need to understand people to understand politics, Well,

1698
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 2: maybe we need to understand people to understand the media

1699
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 2: at a time when people are looking for someone to

1700
01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:36,559
Speaker 2: navigate through their lives and they're not being helped by

1701
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:40,599
Speaker 2: anyone else. You know, this is a nation adrift. If

1702
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:44,080
Speaker 2: there could be media organizations that their sole purpose was

1703
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:46,600
Speaker 2: to help you figure out where to shop, how to

1704
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 2: shop get your long cut, what schools to pick, how

1705
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 2: to advocate for your kids, how to watch your kids' basebuggame.

1706
01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 1: By the way, this is everything that this is everything.

1707
01:30:56,560 --> 01:30:58,599
Speaker 1: The old newspaper did do. That's the thing.

1708
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:03,240
Speaker 2: This isn't a new idea. It's just looking. It's an

1709
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:06,200
Speaker 2: idea that's been lost. Yes, and it's sort of unlocking

1710
01:31:06,200 --> 01:31:08,680
Speaker 2: in it. But you do need to you know.

1711
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 1: It's funny. You have a lot of the people that

1712
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 1: want to fund these efforts and they're looking for we

1713
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 1: need better accountability journalism. Yeah, well guess what. We have

1714
01:31:17,080 --> 01:31:19,519
Speaker 1: too many journalists in Washington and not enough everywhere else.

1715
01:31:20,080 --> 01:31:21,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

1716
01:31:21,439 --> 01:31:25,360
Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about your Detroit Lions.

1717
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:29,360
Speaker 2: You know, for the first time my life, on bullish

1718
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:31,719
Speaker 2: because even if they don't go to the super Bowl,

1719
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:32,880
Speaker 2: even if they have a bed.

1720
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:35,040
Speaker 1: You feel like they're going to be competitive. Yeah, for

1721
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:36,719
Speaker 1: the first time my life. They have a great leader.

1722
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 2: And Sheilah haamp Ford, who picked too.

1723
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:42,680
Speaker 1: I'm impressed with her. She's finally the third What does

1724
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:44,720
Speaker 1: it take the third or fourth generation to get a

1725
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:45,240
Speaker 1: good leader?

1726
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,640
Speaker 2: Sometimes she did what the boys and her family couldn't do.

1727
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:50,679
Speaker 2: There needs to be a book on leadership written about

1728
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:54,080
Speaker 2: Sheilah hamp Ford. He's not getting enough credit. She decided

1729
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:56,240
Speaker 2: to start with the culture first, and she picked two

1730
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:59,040
Speaker 2: men who she thought were culture driven and said, you

1731
01:31:59,080 --> 01:32:02,280
Speaker 2: two guys are going to get along. And when they

1732
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:04,000
Speaker 2: got off to a bad start, she stood behind them

1733
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:06,920
Speaker 2: like David Bradley did for us. You know good leaders do,

1734
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:10,680
Speaker 2: and and you know we have a great GM and

1735
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 2: a great coach. It's a great culture in the locker room.

1736
01:32:14,120 --> 01:32:17,879
Speaker 2: The city is crazy about them. It's just it's just amazing.

1737
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:19,960
Speaker 2: And now you know we have three and a half

1738
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 2: decent teams in Detroit. So it's kind of a it

1739
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:24,680
Speaker 2: is something that the half is.

1740
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 1: That the Red Wings.

1741
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:28,120
Speaker 2: Is that what you're referring to the Wings And even

1742
01:32:28,120 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 2: that I clutched when I said it, because they're led

1743
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:33,160
Speaker 2: by Steve Eiserman, who who is second only to Gordie

1744
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:36,320
Speaker 2: Howe and the gods of Detroit. But but they've they've

1745
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:38,519
Speaker 2: had a hard time getting back in the playoffs. But

1746
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:41,080
Speaker 2: the Pistons had a great year and I feel like

1747
01:32:41,080 --> 01:32:44,040
Speaker 2: they're in the right trajectory right like the Pistons are headed.

1748
01:32:44,120 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 1: You could feel it. They're they're coming. Maybe even the

1749
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:50,679
Speaker 1: Wings I think are too. The Wings just they're young.

1750
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 1: And but like you say, you go downtown Detroit and

1751
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 1: you can throw a baseball and hit off four or

1752
01:32:56,040 --> 01:32:58,200
Speaker 1: all three stadiums, the Wings and the Pistons playing the

1753
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:01,200
Speaker 1: same and they're all beautiful stadium and a beautiful downtown

1754
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:05,720
Speaker 1: in a great city. I've watched Washington, d C. Transformed

1755
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:09,800
Speaker 1: its waterfront. Yeah, and you know this is what you know,

1756
01:33:09,880 --> 01:33:13,519
Speaker 1: here's the thing, sport. It's funny, you know, I'm talking

1757
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:15,599
Speaker 1: about leaning on sports to sort of fix you know,

1758
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:21,559
Speaker 1: fix local news. Sports can really dramatically change the identity

1759
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:24,800
Speaker 1: of a city. Yeah, you know, and and and really

1760
01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 1: can give and can give you a new identity in

1761
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:28,599
Speaker 1: the mood of the city too.

1762
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:34,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I've never seen you're a big college football fan,

1763
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:37,519
Speaker 2: and I'm not so the closest analogy would be, yeah,

1764
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 2: U of M when they were hot. But I've just

1765
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:44,080
Speaker 2: never seen the city so excited in the fall. You know,

1766
01:33:44,200 --> 01:33:47,400
Speaker 2: all week long we're all wearing a Honolulu and white

1767
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 2: and talking about the Lions and proud of the team.

1768
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:55,439
Speaker 2: And it affects the mindset of the city as much

1769
01:33:55,479 --> 01:33:57,200
Speaker 2: as it affects the image of the city.

1770
01:33:57,880 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 1: No, it's a you know, there was a time I

1771
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:02,600
Speaker 1: thought Detroit to be able to support four major league franchises.

1772
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:05,880
Speaker 1: Is it a big enough market anymore? And I think

1773
01:34:05,920 --> 01:34:07,439
Speaker 1: we're getting the answer to that question.

1774
01:34:07,840 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 2: Hell, yes, it's a big metropolitan area and the stadiums

1775
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:15,920
Speaker 2: fill up with people from sixty miles around. That's the key.

1776
01:34:16,240 --> 01:34:18,040
Speaker 1: You know, I just realized something and I'm going to

1777
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:21,880
Speaker 1: make this some going to get real. One more political question.

1778
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 1: We didn't mention labor unions once.

1779
01:34:24,960 --> 01:34:27,680
Speaker 2: Well, I told you something about labor unions, doesn't doesn't it?

1780
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:29,120
Speaker 1: But is that I was just going to say, And

1781
01:34:29,160 --> 01:34:31,680
Speaker 1: if I'd asked you which labor union could make a

1782
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:33,800
Speaker 1: difference politically in the state, which one would you say?

1783
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:36,679
Speaker 1: It is Teamsters UAW who.

1784
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:40,679
Speaker 2: Both of those could make a difference on the margins,

1785
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:43,360
Speaker 2: but neither one is nearly the force that it was.

1786
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 2: You can win in the state without either one of

1787
01:34:46,200 --> 01:34:46,960
Speaker 2: the endorsements.

1788
01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: And in fact, is the Teachers Union as powerful these

1789
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 1: days as the UAW.

1790
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:53,600
Speaker 2: Definitely, And the UAW, as you know, went through the

1791
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:55,920
Speaker 2: huge scandal and they have a new leader who's now

1792
01:34:56,200 --> 01:35:01,640
Speaker 2: being investigated by the court. There's questions option around him.

1793
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:05,080
Speaker 2: It's one of the things that bothers me the most.

1794
01:35:05,400 --> 01:35:07,680
Speaker 2: I came out of a union household. Most of my

1795
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:10,760
Speaker 2: family still works in the factories. The unions are still

1796
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:15,559
Speaker 2: important to people's lives. It's an institution that has has

1797
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:19,840
Speaker 2: let people down because they've been weakened, not just by politics,

1798
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 2: and not just by Reagan, and not just by considering

1799
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:26,559
Speaker 2: they would weakened from within. They they have forgotten who

1800
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 2: they serve. And I'm over generalizing here. They're kind of

1801
01:35:30,560 --> 01:35:33,000
Speaker 2: like journalists who think that they're running for each other

1802
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:39,599
Speaker 2: instead of serving their constituents. And it's it hurts at

1803
01:35:39,600 --> 01:35:42,880
Speaker 2: a time when my brother working at the Warren stamping

1804
01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:46,360
Speaker 2: plant could really use somebody fighting for him. Yeah.

1805
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:48,160
Speaker 1: No, I mean you look around. I've always said, you know,

1806
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 1: I always have been done hot and cold and unions.

1807
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:51,879
Speaker 1: I'm like, if we didn't have them, i'd want them,

1808
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:54,720
Speaker 1: but you know, you know, and the threat of them

1809
01:35:54,800 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 1: does keep corporate America from totally abusing its workforce. It's

1810
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:02,120
Speaker 1: sort of like they're a necessity, but boy, I wish

1811
01:36:02,160 --> 01:36:03,040
Speaker 1: they were more effective.

1812
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:07,560
Speaker 2: Well okay, yeah, and political organizations are in necessity, and

1813
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:10,400
Speaker 2: I wish you're more effective. Religious organizations are necessity. I

1814
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:14,840
Speaker 2: wish they were affected. Groups like Boy Scouts and Girl

1815
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 2: Scouts are important, but I wish you were effective. That's

1816
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:20,800
Speaker 2: our problem. Our institutions are really freaking important, and I

1817
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:21,839
Speaker 2: wish they were more effective.

1818
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm enjoying your substack. You like writing again, don't you?

1819
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:27,120
Speaker 1: I do?

1820
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:29,640
Speaker 2: I do. I stopped writing for several years and I

1821
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:32,760
Speaker 2: needed it for political therapy. And it's so much ale.

1822
01:36:33,680 --> 01:36:36,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure did you. I love It's almost like riding

1823
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:39,000
Speaker 1: it's while it's like riding a bike. I'm sore the

1824
01:36:39,040 --> 01:36:41,040
Speaker 1: first time I ride a bike. After a while, like

1825
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:42,960
Speaker 1: I mentally, man.

1826
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:45,479
Speaker 2: You know, I'm getting back in the weekly habit.

1827
01:36:45,560 --> 01:36:50,120
Speaker 1: But man, I'll admit it is like you have to

1828
01:36:50,160 --> 01:36:51,120
Speaker 1: be so easy.

1829
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 2: Maybe because I've been writing for my clients for the

1830
01:36:55,160 --> 01:36:56,960
Speaker 2: last eight years, so I didn't a problem with the writing,

1831
01:36:57,000 --> 01:36:59,439
Speaker 2: and and I was. I thought i'd have a problem

1832
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 2: coming up with a sharp opinion you have something to say,

1833
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:05,320
Speaker 2: but that hasn't been a problem. Your subsectal pissls me off,

1834
01:37:05,360 --> 01:37:07,439
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, shock because every time I

1835
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:09,200
Speaker 2: read it, Because every time I read, I say shit,

1836
01:37:09,240 --> 01:37:11,400
Speaker 2: I should have read that, I should have written that. God,

1837
01:37:11,439 --> 01:37:12,960
Speaker 2: I can't do that better. Well, that's all right if

1838
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:15,080
Speaker 2: I'm writing for journalists that I'm happy right now. You

1839
01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:18,360
Speaker 2: really do channel me, and you really do channel the ethos.

1840
01:37:17,960 --> 01:37:20,240
Speaker 1: Well maybe we're the group think that's the problem, or

1841
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:22,200
Speaker 1: maybe we were the out of the out of the

1842
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,519
Speaker 1: cool kids group think, and maybe we were onto something.

1843
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 1: Who knows, there's not.

1844
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:27,640
Speaker 2: There's not enough people who write and think like you do.

1845
01:37:27,680 --> 01:37:29,400
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I love your stuff.

1846
01:37:29,640 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you saying that. All right, brother, I'll

1847
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:32,479
Speaker 1: see you soon.

1848
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I say all about you.

1849
01:37:34,240 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: You're a hell of a writer Michigan. Thank you for

1850
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:39,760
Speaker 1: saying that. I think you know there's there's only one

1851
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:43,320
Speaker 1: state to visit for the next next fifteen months. Is

1852
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:47,320
Speaker 1: I think it's his. It's his diverse, and there's a

1853
01:37:47,360 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 1: million stories to write it.

1854
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:52,200
Speaker 2: Just me up. I'll take them for a beer. It

1855
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:54,920
Speaker 2: is the place to come to cover American politics.

1856
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:57,320
Speaker 1: I agree. Thanks Ron Good to see if every buddy

1857
01:37:57,400 --> 01:38:09,639
Speaker 1: good Sea Bill. So, if any of you young journalists

1858
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:11,519
Speaker 1: are out there and you want to know where's where

1859
01:38:11,560 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: to go, convince your editor or convince an underwriter to

1860
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:18,960
Speaker 1: help pay for your time to deep dive around Michigan

1861
01:38:19,520 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 1: into I think Michigan is, Like I said, I think

1862
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: it's the answer key in twenty twenty six into trying

1863
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:29,040
Speaker 1: to figure out what happened and where is the country headed?

1864
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:31,200
Speaker 1: Like totally. I'm going to get to some ass chuck

1865
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:32,760
Speaker 1: here in a minute, but I promise you a little

1866
01:38:32,840 --> 01:38:35,320
Speaker 1: NAT's rant. Look, here's all I'm asking. This was a

1867
01:38:35,400 --> 01:38:39,719
Speaker 1: humiliation this weekend with the Brewers right the post trade deadline.

1868
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: I just to humiliate. Now. The Brewers are a great team,

1869
01:38:42,360 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 1: there's no doubt about it. But I think about sort

1870
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:46,519
Speaker 1: of the structure, the ownership structure of the Brewers, the

1871
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,599
Speaker 1: financial resources of the Brewers, and I think, hmm, boy,

1872
01:38:51,240 --> 01:38:53,479
Speaker 1: this is a smaller market than Washington. I think these

1873
01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 1: are owners that have less wealth than our owners here

1874
01:38:56,560 --> 01:38:59,040
Speaker 1: and then and look what they're able to do, and

1875
01:38:59,040 --> 01:39:01,880
Speaker 1: look at how smart their able to be. And they

1876
01:39:01,880 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 1: don't sign every big star. They do trade away some

1877
01:39:04,320 --> 01:39:07,120
Speaker 1: of their stars sometimes, but they're always trying to be competitive,

1878
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:09,880
Speaker 1: and they're always competitive. It was the Gnats that knocked

1879
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:11,720
Speaker 1: the Brewers out. It was the Wan Soto hit and

1880
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:14,559
Speaker 1: the seventh inning that went under and of the legs

1881
01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:17,760
Speaker 1: of their right fielder when the wild card was a

1882
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:20,439
Speaker 1: one game playoff, and the Gnats go from there win

1883
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 1: the whole thing. But you know what the Brewers have

1884
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:26,120
Speaker 1: done since twenty nineteen, they contend every year. You know

1885
01:39:26,160 --> 01:39:29,200
Speaker 1: what the Gnats don't do contend. And here's the thing,

1886
01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:33,120
Speaker 1: this team is directionless. You get humiliated like this, this

1887
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:37,479
Speaker 1: interim manager. So Apple had the game on Friday, and

1888
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:39,920
Speaker 1: you don't realize, right, this is a great lesson in

1889
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:41,639
Speaker 1: here when you got to get out of your own

1890
01:39:41,680 --> 01:39:44,920
Speaker 1: information bubbles. And all of the Gnats commentary I hear

1891
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 1: are from pro Nats people, Right. I watch all the

1892
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:50,360
Speaker 1: Mass and stuff, and you watch that broadcast and you

1893
01:39:50,400 --> 01:39:52,639
Speaker 1: know they're lightly critical, but it's always like, oh, they're

1894
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:54,240
Speaker 1: giving a good effort, and you know it's got to

1895
01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:56,000
Speaker 1: be right. They work for the team, right, the team

1896
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:58,160
Speaker 1: essentially kind of work for the team. They work for

1897
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: Mass and which essentially were for the team. Right. You

1898
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:04,040
Speaker 1: know it's not a These aren't journalists, and they don't

1899
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:07,840
Speaker 1: pretend they're journalists, you know, on this front. But the

1900
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:12,640
Speaker 1: Apple broadcast on Friday was like just neutral arbiters, and

1901
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:15,240
Speaker 1: they were just it was the brutal truth, and they

1902
01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:18,400
Speaker 1: showed just how poor this franchise been, how terrible their

1903
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:21,360
Speaker 1: draft picks have been, how terrible the player development has been.

1904
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:24,559
Speaker 1: And they were you know, they were they were they

1905
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 1: were trying to be gentle and how they were presenting

1906
01:40:26,439 --> 01:40:29,160
Speaker 1: this data. But it was it was just and it

1907
01:40:29,320 --> 01:40:34,360
Speaker 1: just it just it's just an evisceration, right, whether it's Rizzo,

1908
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:40,120
Speaker 1: whether it's Learner, either way, it's terrible, okay, and the

1909
01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:42,439
Speaker 1: current leadership's got to go. But here's the one thing

1910
01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:44,840
Speaker 1: they learned. They said, the inner manager maygo. Cairo seems

1911
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:47,519
Speaker 1: like a great guy. And I was a big Davy

1912
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:49,200
Speaker 1: Martinez fan. Don't get me wrong. I don't think this

1913
01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:51,080
Speaker 1: is a David Martinez fault. I think this comes from

1914
01:40:51,120 --> 01:40:56,200
Speaker 1: the top. But you know, if Martinez lost the clubhouse,

1915
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:58,439
Speaker 1: which apparently he did when he started attacking the players,

1916
01:40:59,240 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 1: it's not good. If Cairo's coming in there and saying

1917
01:41:02,280 --> 01:41:04,200
Speaker 1: he talks to Davy every day to figure out how

1918
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:05,760
Speaker 1: to do this, which is what he said in the

1919
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 1: Apple interview. They need a new philosophy. They need something.

1920
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:12,360
Speaker 1: But more importantly, they just I just got my renewal

1921
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:16,719
Speaker 1: for my season tickets, and I want an explanation. What's

1922
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 1: the direction of this team? You know, they're bragging about

1923
01:41:20,160 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 1: all these little new benefits that they're going to claim

1924
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:24,599
Speaker 1: they have. What's the direction? You know, the benefit I want?

1925
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:26,679
Speaker 1: I want to be able to buy playoff tickets. That's

1926
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:29,200
Speaker 1: the benefit I want. I want to contend. I want

1927
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:32,479
Speaker 1: to know that these owners care about the fans. And

1928
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 1: I go back these major league owners, whether they're baseball, football, NBA,

1929
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:40,479
Speaker 1: or NHL, your custodians for a fan base. Your team

1930
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 1: has zero value if your fans don't give a shit

1931
01:41:43,040 --> 01:41:45,760
Speaker 1: about your team. And if you build a team and

1932
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:49,000
Speaker 1: fans care, it gives you more value. It makes you money.

1933
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:54,080
Speaker 1: That's how sports ownership works. Trying to profit and not

1934
01:41:54,120 --> 01:41:56,519
Speaker 1: give a shit about the fans is how you have

1935
01:41:56,520 --> 01:41:58,639
Speaker 1: an empty stadium on one of the most beautiful August

1936
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:00,919
Speaker 1: days in the history of my I'm here in Washington

1937
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:03,600
Speaker 1: and nobody was at that game because who wanted to

1938
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 1: watch this ball club? It's leaderless that has a young

1939
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:14,760
Speaker 1: team that has terrible mentors right now that clearly aren't

1940
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:16,920
Speaker 1: figuring out how to motivate them. They have all the

1941
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:20,840
Speaker 1: talent in the world, and they've got terrible leadership right now.

1942
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:24,280
Speaker 1: It's a listless somebody, will you talk to the fans.

1943
01:42:24,720 --> 01:42:27,599
Speaker 1: I'm begging you to the owners, what is the direction?

1944
01:42:28,120 --> 01:42:32,000
Speaker 1: Where are you going? If you're doing a hard rebuild

1945
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:34,400
Speaker 1: over the next three years. Then rip the fricking band

1946
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:39,080
Speaker 1: aid off and admit it to the fans. But at least,

1947
01:42:39,400 --> 01:42:43,120
Speaker 1: just what are you doing. You can't just sit here

1948
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:47,320
Speaker 1: in limbo. It's bad for your business to be doing

1949
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:51,679
Speaker 1: it this way, and you're taking goodwill that ten years

1950
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:54,800
Speaker 1: of fifteen years of goodwill, and you're flushing it down

1951
01:42:54,880 --> 01:43:02,080
Speaker 1: the toilet over this last five years. So please, will

1952
01:43:02,120 --> 01:43:07,560
Speaker 1: you explain yourself, tell us where this is headed. This

1953
01:43:07,560 --> 01:43:11,559
Speaker 1: this is not working, this is you know, I you know,

1954
01:43:11,720 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 1: baseball matters to me a lot, and I you know,

1955
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:19,040
Speaker 1: I care, probably more than I should, but it's an

1956
01:43:19,040 --> 01:43:25,240
Speaker 1: important distraction to me. Our political climate freaking sucks. I

1957
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:27,920
Speaker 1: wish you could help us out. You were a great

1958
01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:32,519
Speaker 1: distraction for a while, but you know, it sucks when

1959
01:43:32,520 --> 01:43:35,439
Speaker 1: the thing that we're trying to take a break from

1960
01:43:35,560 --> 01:43:40,080
Speaker 1: reality is as incompetent as the reality we have to cover.

1961
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:48,639
Speaker 1: So come on, will you absolutely explain yourself, take questions

1962
01:43:48,640 --> 01:43:53,400
Speaker 1: from real reporters, don't just do some sort of but

1963
01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:55,880
Speaker 1: I'll take a visit to the booth, I'll take a

1964
01:43:55,920 --> 01:44:01,839
Speaker 1: Bob Carpenter interview. Explain yourself. I'd prefer if you actually

1965
01:44:01,960 --> 01:44:04,599
Speaker 1: showed up. I mean, whatever, you think of Jerry Jones,

1966
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:07,639
Speaker 1: the man shows up and takes questions, by the way,

1967
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, so take a page. Come on, mister Lerner,

1968
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:18,000
Speaker 1: explain yourself. Explain the direction of this team. Season ticket

1969
01:44:18,040 --> 01:44:21,720
Speaker 1: holders are shareholders. We deserve some answers here. Maybe you

1970
01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:25,479
Speaker 1: don't give a damn if we just walk away, but

1971
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:28,760
Speaker 1: pretend like you care, because we care. It looks like

1972
01:44:28,840 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: the fans care a hell of a lot more than

1973
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 1: the ownership does. Show au shit care, do something, all right?

1974
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:39,240
Speaker 1: Let me take a few questions, and I felt good.

1975
01:44:39,720 --> 01:44:42,720
Speaker 1: But that's the thing. It's so frustrating when something that's

1976
01:44:42,760 --> 01:44:48,439
Speaker 1: supposed to be fun it's just fricking incompetently run all right,

1977
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:55,120
Speaker 1: ask chuck uh. First question comes from Maggie, and she writes,

1978
01:44:55,160 --> 01:44:57,000
Speaker 1: my name is Maggie and I'm a recent college grad.

1979
01:44:57,760 --> 01:44:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm currently living at home with my parents as I

1980
01:44:59,720 --> 01:45:01,519
Speaker 1: search for a job. I feel like the administration has

1981
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:04,280
Speaker 1: really hurt the opportunities available for new graduates, and I'm

1982
01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 1: seeing this among friends from various fields. Specifically, I'm a

1983
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 1: Harvard College grad, and many of us non finance, non

1984
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:13,040
Speaker 1: consulting grads used to be hired by the government. Humanitarian

1985
01:45:13,040 --> 01:45:16,000
Speaker 1: sector or research institutions. Do you have any advice for

1986
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:19,200
Speaker 1: new graduates or people generally looking for jobs in this economy?

1987
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:22,080
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on where opportunities many still

1988
01:45:22,120 --> 01:45:25,200
Speaker 1: exist or even are growing. Thanks for your time. I'm

1989
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,120
Speaker 1: new to the show, but I'm really enjoying it. I

1990
01:45:27,120 --> 01:45:30,360
Speaker 1: appreciate the question. And I have a Margaret, Maggie. I

1991
01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:32,600
Speaker 1: don't want to assume you're a Margaret, but I'm going

1992
01:45:32,680 --> 01:45:34,960
Speaker 1: to assume I have a Margaret. She goes by Marge

1993
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:39,320
Speaker 1: and she's going to be a college graduate in a year,

1994
01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:45,400
Speaker 1: and she had a whole bunch of internship opportunities that

1995
01:45:45,479 --> 01:45:49,360
Speaker 1: all went away I do to government cuts. She's in

1996
01:45:49,400 --> 01:45:54,040
Speaker 1: a field that is where government funding is a lion's

1997
01:45:54,040 --> 01:45:56,679
Speaker 1: share of where the work comes from. It's marine science, right.

1998
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 1: Most of the good research jobs are Noah. You know.

1999
01:46:00,080 --> 01:46:02,840
Speaker 1: Noah's like her north star of where you know, and

2000
01:46:03,120 --> 01:46:05,240
Speaker 1: Noah is something that for some reason, you know, again,

2001
01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:10,240
Speaker 1: they want to cut science because more data is bad anyway.

2002
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:16,680
Speaker 1: So you know, I've been encouraging her. If you're in

2003
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:18,600
Speaker 1: if you're looking for the public sector, I think you

2004
01:46:18,640 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 1: have to not look at the federal government. And I've

2005
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:23,240
Speaker 1: been encouraging my daughter to be looking at state and

2006
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:25,920
Speaker 1: local because there's still some state and local opportunities out

2007
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 1: there in certain public sector fields. Right, So I wouldn't

2008
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:34,879
Speaker 1: shy away from state local. Although the federal government starvation

2009
01:46:35,120 --> 01:46:39,240
Speaker 1: of some of these some of this money that was

2010
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:41,800
Speaker 1: got the states, you're going to start. States are going

2011
01:46:41,800 --> 01:46:45,519
Speaker 1: to go through the next couple of legislative sessions. The

2012
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:48,479
Speaker 1: next time state legislators get together for fiscal years twenty

2013
01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:50,400
Speaker 1: six and twenty seven, they're going to have a lot

2014
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:53,040
Speaker 1: less federal government money to help them balance their budgets.

2015
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:55,559
Speaker 1: So I do think you may see some cuts there

2016
01:46:56,360 --> 01:47:00,600
Speaker 1: on that front. Look, I've been I'm bullish on journalism

2017
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:04,760
Speaker 1: for people in their twenties, but only from the entrepreneurial

2018
01:47:04,800 --> 01:47:07,880
Speaker 1: aspect of things. So that's another piece of advice I

2019
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:11,120
Speaker 1: give you. Know, I think for a long time, going

2020
01:47:11,160 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 1: to the big enterprises, whether it was big media company,

2021
01:47:14,240 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 1: big consulting firm, big finance firm, the government, those were

2022
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:21,599
Speaker 1: those were the great destinations to go to. I think

2023
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:24,720
Speaker 1: right now we're in a period where, look, all those

2024
01:47:24,720 --> 01:47:28,760
Speaker 1: institutions are being in some cases blown up or rehabbed

2025
01:47:29,240 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 1: in any case, in some ways you kind of want

2026
01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:35,120
Speaker 1: to not be there in this moment. Right, they're contracting, right,

2027
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:37,360
Speaker 1: it's no fund to work at a place that's contracting.

2028
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 1: So while you're young, you're a little more nimble your response,

2029
01:47:45,400 --> 01:47:49,080
Speaker 1: your financials responsibility should be a little smaller than it

2030
01:47:49,120 --> 01:47:51,400
Speaker 1: will be once you's you know, the older you get,

2031
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:54,599
Speaker 1: the bigger your nutgets that you have to cover. And

2032
01:47:54,720 --> 01:48:00,200
Speaker 1: so I would not be afraid of more small start

2033
01:48:00,240 --> 01:48:03,800
Speaker 1: up opportunities working on that front. You know, I say

2034
01:48:03,800 --> 01:48:05,640
Speaker 1: this on the journalism front, but I believe it in

2035
01:48:05,960 --> 01:48:09,840
Speaker 1: other fields too, that you know, getting involved in a

2036
01:48:09,840 --> 01:48:12,240
Speaker 1: small business, getting involved in a startup, getting involved in

2037
01:48:12,280 --> 01:48:16,640
Speaker 1: a passion project of some sort maybe the better. And

2038
01:48:16,840 --> 01:48:19,479
Speaker 1: then of course there's grad school. You know, when an

2039
01:48:19,479 --> 01:48:23,320
Speaker 1: economy gets tough, get go get another degree. But don't

2040
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:25,120
Speaker 1: just get a degree to get a degree, Get a

2041
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:28,000
Speaker 1: get a specialty, right, get an expertise in something. There's

2042
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:30,760
Speaker 1: always going to be space for experts. And you know,

2043
01:48:31,040 --> 01:48:32,760
Speaker 1: like I said, in marine science, the good news is

2044
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:34,680
Speaker 1: a lot of private companies now are going to be

2045
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:37,280
Speaker 1: hiring meteorologists, especially if the government isn't going to be

2046
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:39,280
Speaker 1: doing things, and so there is going to you know,

2047
01:48:39,320 --> 01:48:43,519
Speaker 1: there is some repetitive things that private the private sector

2048
01:48:43,560 --> 01:48:46,479
Speaker 1: is going to have to have that actually may create

2049
01:48:46,520 --> 01:48:48,679
Speaker 1: opportunity too. So I know it's not a great answer,

2050
01:48:49,280 --> 01:48:52,280
Speaker 1: but I will say this, I totally understand where you're

2051
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:56,479
Speaker 1: coming from. I'm living it now and with my daughter

2052
01:48:56,520 --> 01:49:00,240
Speaker 1: and her compatriots. You guys are obviously essentially involved than

2053
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 1: the same sort of in the same job market pretty soon.

2054
01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 1: And the other thing is, don't be afraid to move

2055
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:11,720
Speaker 1: around the country right now. You know that is an

2056
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:14,559
Speaker 1: asset you have that somebody in their forties and fifties doesn't,

2057
01:49:15,360 --> 01:49:19,200
Speaker 1: which should at least give you more potential opportunities are

2058
01:49:19,200 --> 01:49:21,880
Speaker 1: out there. But I understand the concern, but that's where

2059
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:24,120
Speaker 1: my head would be at. And like I said, don't

2060
01:49:24,120 --> 01:49:26,040
Speaker 1: be afraid of a startup. Don't be afraid of this

2061
01:49:26,680 --> 01:49:31,040
Speaker 1: is I sort of you know, eventually these big institutions

2062
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 1: are going to have to hire again. But you know,

2063
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:37,000
Speaker 1: if you go get some it's amazing the experiences you

2064
01:49:37,120 --> 01:49:40,720
Speaker 1: gain working at a startup. Next question comes from Jake

2065
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:43,840
Speaker 1: from Denver, Colorado. Longtime listener, first time asker. Thanks Jake.

2066
01:49:44,720 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 1: I love the Constitutional Convention episode with Larry Lessig, but

2067
01:49:47,479 --> 01:49:50,040
Speaker 1: most of the potential amendments discussed were based in realities

2068
01:49:50,040 --> 01:49:53,640
Speaker 1: of state ratification likelihood. If you were made convention dictatoring

2069
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,120
Speaker 1: to force through five amendments of your choosing, what would

2070
01:49:56,120 --> 01:49:59,360
Speaker 1: you add to the Constitution unconstrained by political compromise. You

2071
01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:02,439
Speaker 1: can assume a billion dollars of annual federal funding for

2072
01:50:02,479 --> 01:50:04,840
Speaker 1: the nationals rosters. I appreciate that has already been taken

2073
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:06,840
Speaker 1: care of. No need to burn one of your five

2074
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 1: amendments on that. Wow, five amendments. Well, look, I think

2075
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:18,559
Speaker 1: the I think i'd immediately deal with age maximums. I

2076
01:50:18,600 --> 01:50:27,840
Speaker 1: would advocate a population sort of here's what we need.

2077
01:50:28,080 --> 01:50:32,000
Speaker 1: We need percentages to help us decide. You know that

2078
01:50:32,640 --> 01:50:35,240
Speaker 1: we've come up with right now it should be I

2079
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:38,280
Speaker 1: think the House of Representatives would be one representative perform

2080
01:50:38,240 --> 01:50:40,800
Speaker 1: on a thousand, But you wouldn't want to put that

2081
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:42,680
Speaker 1: number in there like that. It would be sort of

2082
01:50:43,439 --> 01:50:46,479
Speaker 1: if one perform a thousand is point zero zero one

2083
01:50:46,600 --> 01:50:50,240
Speaker 1: percent of the population, that we should have one representative

2084
01:50:50,280 --> 01:50:55,080
Speaker 1: per point zero zero one percent of the population. I'd

2085
01:50:55,080 --> 01:50:58,080
Speaker 1: put that in there. I'd put the actual number in

2086
01:50:58,120 --> 01:51:00,920
Speaker 1: there so that way, the House of Representatives, it was

2087
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:03,679
Speaker 1: constantly mandated that it had to stay the people's house, right.

2088
01:51:03,760 --> 01:51:05,519
Speaker 1: I think that's a big problem. So that would be

2089
01:51:05,880 --> 01:51:09,840
Speaker 1: one you'd probably if you if you, I would, I

2090
01:51:09,840 --> 01:51:12,960
Speaker 1: would create sort of population tiers. I would take the

2091
01:51:13,040 --> 01:51:19,080
Speaker 1: idea from my friend at the George Washington Library, where

2092
01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:24,000
Speaker 1: I would sort of create four tiers where you know,

2093
01:51:26,520 --> 01:51:30,000
Speaker 1: if you have let's say, you know ten percent of

2094
01:51:30,120 --> 01:51:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, six percent of the population, five percent of

2095
01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:36,360
Speaker 1: the population north, you get four. Your senators you know

2096
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:39,720
Speaker 1: somewhere between three and five percent, you get three, et cetera. Like,

2097
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:41,840
Speaker 1: create a little bit of that to make the Senate

2098
01:51:42,040 --> 01:51:46,080
Speaker 1: more small, d democratic, right, more representative, still give still

2099
01:51:46,080 --> 01:51:48,680
Speaker 1: give small states the upper hand there, and then you

2100
01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:51,920
Speaker 1: can keep the electoral college right. So that's so that's

2101
01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 1: three amendments there. I definitely would try to come up

2102
01:51:55,960 --> 01:52:00,320
Speaker 1: with a campaign finance reform method. I would be stand

2103
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:03,840
Speaker 1: by your advertisement where you had to say who you know?

2104
01:52:03,920 --> 01:52:06,920
Speaker 1: Anybody that gave you money? You know, I'm for you

2105
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:09,240
Speaker 1: want to do unlimited donations, Fine, but everybody that gave

2106
01:52:09,240 --> 01:52:11,760
Speaker 1: you more than fifty thousand dollars, they'd you have to

2107
01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:15,320
Speaker 1: you have to say their name every time you do

2108
01:52:15,400 --> 01:52:18,080
Speaker 1: the ad, which means everybody would get forty nine hundred

2109
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:21,880
Speaker 1: ninety nine dollars right, instant disclosure immediate that you'd see

2110
01:52:21,920 --> 01:52:28,200
Speaker 1: at things like that. So that's four. And my fifth

2111
01:52:28,240 --> 01:52:31,439
Speaker 1: amendment would probably be I'd add two states. I'd add

2112
01:52:31,479 --> 01:52:34,360
Speaker 1: the District of Columbia. You know, I'd come up with

2113
01:52:34,439 --> 01:52:36,560
Speaker 1: a way that would force, right, the states would be

2114
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:39,160
Speaker 1: at it, but that would sort of force that you know,

2115
01:52:39,320 --> 01:52:42,800
Speaker 1: once you hit a certain threshold as a territory of

2116
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:46,840
Speaker 1: residents of US citizens living there, that it triggers a

2117
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:50,320
Speaker 1: vote for statehood in Congress. Right, So essentially, you know,

2118
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 1: so I would have an amendment that wouldn't mandate a

2119
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:55,400
Speaker 1: state for the District of Columbia, but that would sort

2120
01:52:55,400 --> 01:52:59,920
Speaker 1: of create the conditions, and I would have a crib

2121
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:02,680
Speaker 1: in state. I've always thought that the Virgin Islands in

2122
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:05,439
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico together ought to you know, I know that

2123
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:07,519
Speaker 1: it would you know, look, we made the Hawaiian Islands

2124
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:09,920
Speaker 1: one state. I would take our Caribbean Islands and all

2125
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:13,280
Speaker 1: those US islands and I'd advocate for them to be

2126
01:53:14,479 --> 01:53:19,360
Speaker 1: to get statehood together in some form. So there you go.

2127
01:53:22,840 --> 01:53:26,800
Speaker 1: I'd love to ban political parties, but I think that

2128
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:28,800
Speaker 1: is a state thing. I don't think there's anything I

2129
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:31,080
Speaker 1: could do to sort of get rid of the duopoly.

2130
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:33,960
Speaker 1: I do think we need to have equal access. Maybe

2131
01:53:34,000 --> 01:53:35,200
Speaker 1: I would find a way to get rid of the

2132
01:53:35,320 --> 01:53:38,720
Speaker 1: right of party primary so that all everybody had to vote,

2133
01:53:38,720 --> 01:53:40,599
Speaker 1: you know, everybody had to be able to vote every

2134
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:43,840
Speaker 1: election that was held, Okay, that it was always open

2135
01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:47,920
Speaker 1: to every voter, and force parties to do it. You know,

2136
01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:49,639
Speaker 1: if they wanted to come up with a nomination process

2137
01:53:49,680 --> 01:53:51,360
Speaker 1: on their own, they could do that, but they'd have

2138
01:53:51,439 --> 01:53:55,160
Speaker 1: to pay for their private organizations. But but you have

2139
01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:58,120
Speaker 1: a sort of when this, when the government pays for

2140
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:01,400
Speaker 1: an election, every single registered voters should have access to

2141
01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:05,960
Speaker 1: that election period. And so I might mandate that too,

2142
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:08,560
Speaker 1: because that also if you did that, I think you

2143
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:12,400
Speaker 1: might be able to blow up a partisan primary. Part Thanks,

2144
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna take one more question. I went

2145
01:54:14,920 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 1: that was a fun one. I even you don't know

2146
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:18,680
Speaker 1: this yere because there's gonna be an edit. But I

2147
01:54:18,760 --> 01:54:21,200
Speaker 1: did a pause to get my math correct on the

2148
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:25,840
Speaker 1: on what percentage I would need to sort of level

2149
01:54:25,880 --> 01:54:27,799
Speaker 1: out so that you could make it a constitutional amendment

2150
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:34,760
Speaker 1: on that? All right, last question comes this comes from Texas. Potentially,

2151
01:54:36,160 --> 01:54:38,880
Speaker 1: let's see here. It comes from Greg and he writes this,

2152
01:54:39,000 --> 01:54:40,920
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed the show since you left NBC. I

2153
01:54:41,040 --> 01:54:44,080
Speaker 1: like you have accepted that every ten year jerrymandering exercise

2154
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:46,160
Speaker 1: that both parties go through in their states. However, what

2155
01:54:46,280 --> 01:54:48,680
Speaker 1: Trump and Texas Republicans are doing to maintain federal power

2156
01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:50,720
Speaker 1: is one of its most is one of the most

2157
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:54,080
Speaker 1: bold undemocratic exercises I've ever seen. To hear Democrats are considering.

2158
01:54:54,120 --> 01:54:57,280
Speaker 1: Reciprocating in California is even more disturbing, where the national

2159
01:54:57,360 --> 01:55:00,080
Speaker 1: leaders speaking up or populist outrage calling out what is

2160
01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:02,960
Speaker 1: an extremely undemocratic tactic by both parties to maintain or

2161
01:55:02,960 --> 01:55:06,240
Speaker 1: achieve your power. Ps. How about California Texas settle who's

2162
01:55:06,280 --> 01:55:08,840
Speaker 1: better with a game between the Trojans and Longhorns. The

2163
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:11,240
Speaker 1: Trojans beating the Longhorns would get under Texas to skin

2164
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:14,080
Speaker 1: more and more than politics. Greg, I love that last

2165
01:55:14,160 --> 01:55:17,320
Speaker 1: idea altogether. You're right, I don't understand where the outrage is.

2166
01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:20,640
Speaker 1: And I've been very concerned that the second an election

2167
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:22,800
Speaker 1: of Trump, the second term of Trump, was going to

2168
01:55:22,920 --> 01:55:25,680
Speaker 1: change the nature of the leaders and the Democratic Party

2169
01:55:26,200 --> 01:55:28,000
Speaker 1: of going to the mindset if you can't beat them

2170
01:55:28,040 --> 01:55:30,960
Speaker 1: to join them, Well, we can't win fair and square,

2171
01:55:31,080 --> 01:55:32,680
Speaker 1: so we're going to try to come up with ways

2172
01:55:32,720 --> 01:55:38,400
Speaker 1: to cheat to this. I do not understand this collective

2173
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 1: embracing of yeah, all elections should be unfair. What is

2174
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 1: wrong with us? What is wrong with us? This is

2175
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 1: insane and the idea that you have and I look,

2176
01:55:53,760 --> 01:55:56,480
Speaker 1: I understand you got to the mindset of fight fire

2177
01:55:56,560 --> 01:55:59,920
Speaker 1: with fire, And I'm watching all these democratic governors ration

2178
01:56:00,000 --> 01:56:04,560
Speaker 1: analyze their way to say, well, they're going to be undemocratic,

2179
01:56:04,720 --> 01:56:09,720
Speaker 1: so are we okay? So if they're undemocratic and you're

2180
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:13,440
Speaker 1: behaving undemocratic, don't be surprised if the whole if the

2181
01:56:13,480 --> 01:56:16,560
Speaker 1: country decides, well maybe we should have an authoritarian in

2182
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:20,000
Speaker 1: charge because nobody seems to trust the voters to you know,

2183
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:23,400
Speaker 1: everybody wants to to to create their own districts and

2184
01:56:23,640 --> 01:56:27,440
Speaker 1: control the voters. So, you know, I don't know why

2185
01:56:27,480 --> 01:56:30,800
Speaker 1: there's not voter anger here. I am very disappointed, and

2186
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:34,160
Speaker 1: I have no idea where you know, the partisan leadership

2187
01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:36,120
Speaker 1: I expect them to behave this way, but it's really

2188
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:42,160
Speaker 1: been gross, you know, it is you know, it's just terrible.

2189
01:56:42,360 --> 01:56:44,000
Speaker 1: By the way, there's a substack and I'm going to

2190
01:56:44,040 --> 01:56:45,640
Speaker 1: dig deeper into it, but that does this sort of

2191
01:56:46,000 --> 01:56:49,760
Speaker 1: terrific deep dive. Dave Wigel tweeted it. Somebody did a

2192
01:56:49,840 --> 01:56:51,880
Speaker 1: huge deep dive just sort of on the on one

2193
01:56:51,880 --> 01:56:54,480
Speaker 1: of these scam packs on the left and just how

2194
01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:57,640
Speaker 1: embedded inside the Democratic Party was. But essentially, they've raised

2195
01:56:57,640 --> 01:56:59,840
Speaker 1: two hundred fifty eight million dollars and only one barely

2196
01:57:00,240 --> 01:57:02,320
Speaker 1: less than two percent of that has actually gone to campaigns.

2197
01:57:02,800 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 1: And we've seen these Scampact reportings on the right. But

2198
01:57:05,800 --> 01:57:09,200
Speaker 1: but but the thing is, this is another part of

2199
01:57:09,240 --> 01:57:11,720
Speaker 1: the duopoly that's out there. There's a whole bunch of

2200
01:57:11,760 --> 01:57:15,760
Speaker 1: people that are making money off of your anger, and

2201
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:18,560
Speaker 1: then they're spent and then they're doing these undemocratic things

2202
01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:21,520
Speaker 1: that are just gonna it is. It is going to

2203
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 1: set precedents that that you know, we're gonna we're not

2204
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:26,160
Speaker 1: gonna be able to put the toothpaste back in the

2205
01:57:26,240 --> 01:57:28,840
Speaker 1: two we're gonna wish we did. And to watch the

2206
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:32,040
Speaker 1: Democratic Party, who most of them were drifting towards the

2207
01:57:32,120 --> 01:57:36,280
Speaker 1: idea that hey, maybe the right call is to take

2208
01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:42,440
Speaker 1: take the jerrymandering, take the map making out of the

2209
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:46,200
Speaker 1: hands of elected officials. Right, that's a you know, it's

2210
01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:48,360
Speaker 1: another one of my constitutional amendments. We got to figure out.

2211
01:57:49,520 --> 01:57:52,160
Speaker 1: He's had to essentially end that in some form or another,

2212
01:57:52,520 --> 01:57:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, take not allow the legislatures to set the lines,

2213
01:57:55,760 --> 01:58:00,480
Speaker 1: but to force bipartisan but to force essentially, you know,

2214
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:04,920
Speaker 1: some form of bipartisan commissions or nonpartisan commissions or tripartisan commissions,

2215
01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:08,200
Speaker 1: or I think what California did wasn't bad, right, And

2216
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:11,959
Speaker 1: Ohio pass an amendment that the legislature keeps ignoring. Virginia

2217
01:58:12,040 --> 01:58:15,080
Speaker 1: passed an amendment that there's some of the Democrats wish

2218
01:58:15,160 --> 01:58:18,440
Speaker 1: that they could ignore. There were all these movements to

2219
01:58:18,440 --> 01:58:21,000
Speaker 1: get rid of jerrymandering. And I remember standing in line

2220
01:58:21,080 --> 01:58:23,840
Speaker 1: voting in Virginia and the Virginia Democratic Party was begging

2221
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:27,800
Speaker 1: people to vote against the amendment that created the citizen

2222
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:32,760
Speaker 1: oversight over their commissions. And you know, when when the

2223
01:58:32,840 --> 01:58:35,680
Speaker 1: fact is neither political party is interested in the democracy,

2224
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:38,960
Speaker 1: They're interested in getting power, right, and that is you know,

2225
01:58:39,080 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 1: maybe this is why the founder, the original founders who

2226
01:58:42,160 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 1: feared parties were right, because it becomes the health of

2227
01:58:46,560 --> 01:58:49,360
Speaker 1: the party becomes paramount than the over the health of

2228
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:53,240
Speaker 1: the country. Right The country is sick right now. The

2229
01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 1: Democratic Party and the Republican Party are not fixing the country.

2230
01:58:58,360 --> 01:59:02,960
Speaker 1: They're exploiting the illnesses. And this is just the latest

2231
01:59:03,080 --> 01:59:07,480
Speaker 1: episode of that. And you know, I'm not saying that

2232
01:59:07,720 --> 01:59:11,240
Speaker 1: both parties couldn't become forces for good. Well right now

2233
01:59:11,320 --> 01:59:13,720
Speaker 1: they're being run by people who care more about preserving

2234
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:16,880
Speaker 1: power or getting power than they do about fixing the

2235
01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:20,520
Speaker 1: problem and curing the virus that is circulating in this

2236
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:24,720
Speaker 1: country right now. All right, well, that's kind of here's

2237
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:28,320
Speaker 1: the good news NFL training camps. Another Green Bay Packer

2238
01:59:28,480 --> 01:59:31,680
Speaker 1: has made it into the Hall of Fame, Sterling Sharp.

2239
01:59:32,200 --> 01:59:34,640
Speaker 1: It was fun to sort of tell my son a

2240
01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:37,080
Speaker 1: little bit of the history of Sterling Sharp. It was

2241
01:59:37,120 --> 01:59:40,640
Speaker 1: the last great receiver, you know, that the Packers had,

2242
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:43,440
Speaker 1: and he just met I mean it would it is.

2243
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:45,600
Speaker 1: You know, Brett Favre created a lot of I mean

2244
01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:51,800
Speaker 1: a lot of Antonio Freeman was certainly in Donald h

2245
01:59:52,160 --> 01:59:54,920
Speaker 1: God Donald Driver. Sorry it was blinking on his name,

2246
01:59:55,360 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 1: you know. Brett Favre sort of made them pro bowlers

2247
01:59:57,600 --> 01:59:59,800
Speaker 1: every once in a while. But Sharp was the best

2248
01:59:59,840 --> 02:00:01,760
Speaker 1: for he ever had. And if he had had four

2249
02:00:01,840 --> 02:00:04,120
Speaker 1: more years with him. I don't know. I'd like to

2250
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:07,080
Speaker 1: think maybe we don't lose that second Super Bowl at Denver,

2251
02:00:07,200 --> 02:00:11,240
Speaker 1: maybe we went it with because Sterling Sharp was that good.

2252
02:00:11,400 --> 02:00:13,920
Speaker 1: I remember watching I remember the University of Miami playing.

2253
02:00:14,840 --> 02:00:16,840
Speaker 1: I believe he went to South Carolina because I think

2254
02:00:16,880 --> 02:00:20,000
Speaker 1: we played. Back then South Carolina was an independent. They

2255
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:22,320
Speaker 1: weren't members of the SEC. Yes, that's how old I am.

2256
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:26,400
Speaker 1: And I think South Carolina went ten and won that year.

2257
02:00:26,440 --> 02:00:28,040
Speaker 1: I think we were the only team to beat them,

2258
02:00:28,400 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 1: and I remember Sterling Sharp was like, that guy's the

2259
02:00:31,000 --> 02:00:33,240
Speaker 1: best player in the field. And that was the I

2260
02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:35,720
Speaker 1: think the eighty seven Miami team, which is one of

2261
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:39,680
Speaker 1: the greatest Miami football teams ever, went undefeated untied, even

2262
02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:43,080
Speaker 1: though probably the two teams that the team the year

2263
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:45,640
Speaker 1: before and the team the year after probably technically slightly better.

2264
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:50,640
Speaker 1: But that team wasn't gonna lose, right, But Sharp was.

2265
02:00:51,920 --> 02:00:55,240
Speaker 1: He was like it was like it was like watching

2266
02:00:58,280 --> 02:01:01,000
Speaker 1: Andre Johnson in college. I got to see that, or

2267
02:01:01,160 --> 02:01:03,280
Speaker 1: Calvin Johnson when he was at Georgia Tech. You're like,

2268
02:01:03,320 --> 02:01:04,840
Speaker 1: oh my god, that guy's going to be a star.

2269
02:01:04,960 --> 02:01:07,600
Speaker 1: Larry Fitzgerald at Pitt you know when you see these

2270
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:10,880
Speaker 1: guys when you're you're like, you just know Sharp was

2271
02:01:10,920 --> 02:01:14,400
Speaker 1: that guy you just knew? So anyway, I got to

2272
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,000
Speaker 1: end on an upbeat note, right, ranting about the mats,

2273
02:01:18,760 --> 02:01:22,640
Speaker 1: Frustrated about the country, frustrated about our economy, you know,

2274
02:01:23,240 --> 02:01:26,400
Speaker 1: thank God for the Green Bay packers with that until

2275
02:01:26,400 --> 02:01:27,120
Speaker 1: I uploaded him