Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am
Speaker 1: your host, Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the season finale of Anxiety Bites. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman. My guest today is Dr Julie Smith. I
Speaker 1: love how this episode with Dr Julie lined up to
Speaker 1: be the last episode because she has a book out
Speaker 1: that's quite popular called Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?
Speaker 1: And then the byeline is Everyday Tolls for Life's Ups
Speaker 1: and Downs? And I think that's just a nice note
Speaker 1: to end on why has Nobody told Me This Before?
Speaker 1: I think that could be said when you look back
Speaker 1: on all my guests, from therapist to dr is, to
Speaker 1: internal medicine doctors to neuroscientists, artists, authors, researchers, all of
Speaker 1: the information that they present has been around for decades,
Speaker 1: and yet there's this if the first time you heard
Speaker 1: of some of this information was on this podcast that
Speaker 1: a former comedian and comedy writer currently hosts, It's like,
Speaker 1: why is that person the one that brought this information
Speaker 1: to me? Why isn't this taught in schools? Why isn't
Speaker 1: this just I don't know, known, you know, and so
Speaker 1: I just love I just love book ending it with
Speaker 1: why has nobody told me this before? And I feel
Speaker 1: that way about a lot of things when I learned
Speaker 1: them for the first time. There's this notion that, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I fad had this information sooner, Well, I really would
Speaker 1: have nailed it it life. But I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's necessarily true. I don't think we should take an
Speaker 1: opportunity about learning something new to beat ourselves up for
Speaker 1: Oh my god, imagine if I'd known this. That's more like,
Speaker 1: thank God, I know this now, But yeah, why has
Speaker 1: nobody told me this before? So obviously in Dr Julie's book,
Speaker 1: there are things that you know, we've gone over in
Speaker 1: this podcast, but she had a few chapters that I
Speaker 1: thought were really important messages to leave you all with
Speaker 1: that I don't even necessarily have to do with you
Speaker 1: have some diagnosed anxiety disorder, or you have this, or
Speaker 1: you've been to therapy, but just ways that you know, um,
Speaker 1: having a maybe an undiagnosed mental health issue or a
Speaker 1: diagnosed one that you're working on, or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: that it does affect more than just your behavioral responses
Speaker 1: to said mental health issue. Right, like to put it
Speaker 1: very simply, if you had obsessive compulsive disorder, you might
Speaker 1: be very focused on how do I get these thoughts
Speaker 1: to stop? How do I stop ruminating? And then you
Speaker 1: might be focused on the treatment for that. But a
Speaker 1: lot of times there are ways that having a mental
Speaker 1: health issue, you know, whether it's a history of depression
Speaker 1: and history of anxiety, that it really affects a lot
Speaker 1: of our parts of ourselves that we don't normally think
Speaker 1: have to do with taking care of our mental health,
Speaker 1: like our self esteem and our confidence and the notion
Speaker 1: that we are not our mistakes and and so I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to Dr Julie about these concepts, and
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of everyday tools that you
Speaker 1: can take right now out of my interview with Dr Julie.
Speaker 1: And I also wanted to talk to her about the
Speaker 1: fact that she is something of a tech talk celebrity
Speaker 1: because she has these wonderful, easy to understand, colorful, you know,
Speaker 1: well produced, beautifully filmed videos where she usually shows with
Speaker 1: some kind of object in this very creative way, how
Speaker 1: our minds work and how we can reframe the way
Speaker 1: that we see things when we're taking care of our
Speaker 1: mental health, and you know, there is a whole new
Speaker 1: world out there for people who are therapists, who see clients,
Speaker 1: who are psychiatrists and doctors to put themselves out there
Speaker 1: on social media and have to navigate this new landscape
Speaker 1: well maybe dealing with criticism that you know, they shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing this, they should be more of an anonymous
Speaker 1: person or whatever. And so I didn't want it to
Speaker 1: pass us by that I was also talking with someone
Speaker 1: who deals with herself what it's like to be out
Speaker 1: there in the world on social media and what she
Speaker 1: does in order to keep herself in the right headspace,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of putting herself out there and
Speaker 1: on there and mixing it up in the internet world.
Speaker 1: So I hope you enjoy my interview and com station
Speaker 1: with Dr Julie Smith. Will see you on the flip
Speaker 1: side of that interview where I will give you takeaways
Speaker 1: from this episode and some takeaways my own thoughts about
Speaker 1: what it's been like posting this podcast, what I've learned
Speaker 1: and what I haven't learned. So Dr Julie, I absolutely
Speaker 1: love your book. Why has nobody told me this before?
Speaker 1: And before we get into some of the great coping
Speaker 1: skills life skills that are in this book. Was there
Speaker 1: any personal reason besides the fact that you are a
Speaker 1: doctor and you want to get this information out there,
Speaker 1: why you framed it this way and called it Why
Speaker 1: has nobody told me this before? And yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's a good question that the title actually came out
Speaker 1: of the reason I started doing any of this in
Speaker 1: the first place, which was I was I was running
Speaker 1: a very small private practice, and lots of the people
Speaker 1: coming through for therapy once they had the educational aspect
Speaker 1: a therapy, so they learned a bit about how their
Speaker 1: own brain works and how they could impact in their
Speaker 1: own mood and their own emotions and things like that.
Speaker 1: That once they had that information, so many of them
Speaker 1: were raring to go, and they were saying, Wow, how
Speaker 1: how has no one told me this before? You know,
Speaker 1: it's not rocket science. I can put it into my
Speaker 1: life fairly simply. But when I do, it's having this
Speaker 1: impact and my life is getting better. So this is
Speaker 1: probably you know, And these are the things that people
Speaker 1: would find really helpful and take away, and they were
Speaker 1: the kind of the tools that they would keep hold
Speaker 1: of that increase their confidence to be able to manage
Speaker 1: whatever came up. So rather than needing to know that
Speaker 1: everything was going to be okay, these seem to be
Speaker 1: the things that helped people to know that whatever happened,
Speaker 1: they would be all right. And you know, it was
Speaker 1: the sort of so the title really came out of
Speaker 1: an amalgamation of what people used to say to me.
Speaker 1: How have I not learned this in school? Why has
Speaker 1: nobody told me this before? This is really helpful? So
Speaker 1: it was me wanting to kind of put all of
Speaker 1: those things into one place so that people didn't have
Speaker 1: to You know, lots of people can't have access to
Speaker 1: therapy for many of different reasons. Um, but I don't
Speaker 1: see why people should have to pay to come see
Speaker 1: people like me to find out that basic stuff about
Speaker 1: how their mind works. And you mentioned self confidence, and
Speaker 1: I think we'll start there. I have been trying for
Speaker 1: the whole time that I've I've done this podcast all
Speaker 1: year to infuse little moments of my belief which it
Speaker 1: didn't come up with myself, obviously, but from learning and
Speaker 1: working on my own anxiety that once we start to
Speaker 1: build confidence and do things that give us self esteem,
Speaker 1: that becomes addictive. So it brings me to this part
Speaker 1: of your book, this little mini chapter that's part of
Speaker 1: a bigger chapter, why you don't need to work on
Speaker 1: your self esteem. I love that. Obviously it's a very
Speaker 1: provocative heading. But tell us what you meant by that. So,
Speaker 1: I think self esteem it's one of these concepts that's
Speaker 1: been um sort of talked about and promoted as um,
Speaker 1: you you just have to tell yourself that you're okay,
Speaker 1: and and that you have to just you know, like
Speaker 1: yourself and praise yourself in a way that is always
Speaker 1: positive and sometimes you know, I think self seem is
Speaker 1: more helpful if we look at it in terms of
Speaker 1: the way that we feel about ourselves can be information,
Speaker 1: So it can be you know, whatever we're feeling towards ourselves,
Speaker 1: whether it's positive or negative. Something that we do in
Speaker 1: therapy is always turned towards feelings with curiosity. So rather
Speaker 1: than just trying to change it, we look at what
Speaker 1: is and then we get to work on understanding why
Speaker 1: it is that way and how that can help us
Speaker 1: or whether it's hindering us. So, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: not UM, it's not unhealthy or disordered. If you reach
Speaker 1: a period of your life where you're not okay with
Speaker 1: the person that you are or the way that you're behaving.
Speaker 1: You know, to have constant positive self esteem would suggest
Speaker 1: that you've never made mistakes. Well, you've never um done
Speaker 1: less than you're capable of. And so I think it's
Speaker 1: okay to say, do you know what I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not being at my best here, or I'm not doing
Speaker 1: my best for myself or for my family, or for
Speaker 1: my career or for whatever that thing is. It's okay
Speaker 1: to feel that dissatisfaction and then look at it with
Speaker 1: curiosity and learn from it and move on and progress.
Speaker 1: If we're intolerant of the dissatisfaction with ourselves and we
Speaker 1: try to sort of convince ourselves that we are we're
Speaker 1: okay as we are, then then sometimes that can hinder
Speaker 1: our ability to progress and move forward. I think we
Speaker 1: have to make it okay to look at um those
Speaker 1: feelings that we're not quite satisfied with how things are
Speaker 1: at the moment um. So yeah, that's really sort of
Speaker 1: what that was about. And and there's a part that says,
Speaker 1: you know, someone might tell you who's trying to help
Speaker 1: you increase your self esteem, that you know, just make
Speaker 1: a list, make a list of what you like about yourself,
Speaker 1: and you know that's that's going to help pave the
Speaker 1: road to your belief that you can become a success
Speaker 1: in the world. And you say that, well, okay, but
Speaker 1: we have to go even further back than that. That
Speaker 1: societally right, we have a problem with the concept of
Speaker 1: success and I you know, we think it means wealth
Speaker 1: and winning and standing out. And I have to assume
Speaker 1: that someone with anxiety the you know, I had someone
Speaker 1: say to me once, stop comparing yourself to people way
Speaker 1: above you. First of all, don't compare yourself to anyone,
Speaker 1: but stop looking at people way above you, and look
Speaker 1: at people underneath you, not to to um feel better
Speaker 1: than them or say they're doing something bad, but just
Speaker 1: to look how far you've come. Well, how many people
Speaker 1: would want to be in your situation in life, whatever
Speaker 1: that situation is, Like, what is our definition of success?
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a question. I was babbling, But
Speaker 1: if there's anything you want to step go into that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the comparison thing is is tricky, isn't it, Because
Speaker 1: we are we are built to do that to a degree.
Speaker 1: You know, we're social beings, and so if we are
Speaker 1: brains sort of naturally, you know, look outside of us
Speaker 1: and compare uslves are we living up to the expectations
Speaker 1: of this community or this group that I'm living in, Um,
Speaker 1: where do I sit in the hierarchy? And you know, um,
Speaker 1: those kind of things. They're all really useful things for
Speaker 1: your brain to pick up on, and in terms of
Speaker 1: being a social being living in a group. But in
Speaker 1: you know, today's society where we have you know how
Speaker 1: many billion people at our disposal who have put their
Speaker 1: best foot forward on social media or something else. Um,
Speaker 1: the things that we would never exposed to before. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, the comparison thing, it's really adaptive for you know,
Speaker 1: when we used to live in smaller groups and communities,
Speaker 1: it was a survival thing. It helped us to work
Speaker 1: out whether we were safe in that community or we
Speaker 1: were about to be you know, rejected from it, which
Speaker 1: was a real survival issue. And so you know, we
Speaker 1: can't eliminate comparison. It's going to naturally happen. And what
Speaker 1: I often work with people in therapy on is is
Speaker 1: stepping back from that and noticing that natural urge to
Speaker 1: do that. So noticing, oh, look, I am comparing myself,
Speaker 1: what kind of people am I comparing myself today to today?
Speaker 1: So you know, am I comparing up? Where am I
Speaker 1: comparing down? What's the impact of that on me? And
Speaker 1: why do I feel the need to do that today?
Speaker 1: What what's going on there? And always again coming back
Speaker 1: to it with curiosity. So rather than setting yourself the
Speaker 1: standard of I must not compare myself to anyone, and
Speaker 1: or I must only compare um to people who are
Speaker 1: worse off than me so that I feel better, or
Speaker 1: you know, those sorts of things I think, you know,
Speaker 1: those sorts of standards can sometimes set us up to
Speaker 1: feel like we're failing all over again, um and and
Speaker 1: it just sort of leads to this internal argument where
Speaker 1: we're trying to think certain things and not others, and
Speaker 1: and actually thoughts just arrive, so that the most helpful approach,
Speaker 1: I think is to step back, notice which thoughts arrived,
Speaker 1: notice whether they help you or hinder you, and then
Speaker 1: practice that ability to to let them move on or
Speaker 1: to hold onto ones that are helping you. So, getting
Speaker 1: back to what you said about curiosity, Well, before I
Speaker 1: say that, I'll just make a quick comment that when
Speaker 1: we're talking about comparing up, comparing down and you're writing
Speaker 1: this book based on you know something, you're your patients said,
Speaker 1: I get so many emails on this show, and there's
Speaker 1: always this time and age obsession, and everyone is saying
Speaker 1: the same thing no matter what age they are, it's
Speaker 1: too late. You know, someone twenty things it's too late.
Speaker 1: So when sixty thinks it's too late, it's too late
Speaker 1: to change. And it's like we really just make things
Speaker 1: up to live by, you know, like there is no
Speaker 1: concept of time in terms of getting better or getting
Speaker 1: some thoughts. There's no it's too late or you can't
Speaker 1: do it because your generation has a little harder with
Speaker 1: you know, the economy or something. It's just you can't
Speaker 1: either have to do it or not. But yeah, and
Speaker 1: the more we kind of buy into those narratives, the
Speaker 1: more powerful they are, whether they're helpful or not. And
Speaker 1: I guess if you I mean, I love to think
Speaker 1: of sort of psychology in terms of um professional athletes.
Speaker 1: So we all we all want to function well in
Speaker 1: our lives and thrive and be at our best in
Speaker 1: a similar way that athletes do. But athletes apply that
Speaker 1: to one specific performance, one specific action. And you know,
Speaker 1: if if you take I don't know. We've just had
Speaker 1: Wimbledon in England. So you know, let's say a tennis
Speaker 1: player who is on their way up through the ranks
Speaker 1: and they're doing well, but they have a way to go.
Speaker 1: If that person starts to you know, let's say that
Speaker 1: they take on a coach, if that person started to
Speaker 1: tell that athlete that it's probably too late. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: it's harder these day to progress in tennis. And you know,
Speaker 1: maybe you're ranked it you're you know, one hundred, um,
Speaker 1: but you know, let's compare you to the number one,
Speaker 1: number two seed. Actually you're really far behind that. That
Speaker 1: kind of approach a decent a decent coach would never
Speaker 1: ever do, right that because that's going to be unhelpful.
Speaker 1: That's going to make that person feel less energized, um,
Speaker 1: less motivated to work on their craft. They're more much
Speaker 1: more likely to give up. So you have to think about,
Speaker 1: you know, what results you want in terms of how
Speaker 1: you want to feel, how you want to be living,
Speaker 1: how you want to be moving towards things in your life.
Speaker 1: None of us can guarantee how much time we've got.
Speaker 1: Is just one of those aspects of life that there
Speaker 1: is uncertainty there, but we have to live as if
Speaker 1: there is a future the same time. So, you know,
Speaker 1: if if you want to be applying yourself to life
Speaker 1: in a way that enables you to thrive and do
Speaker 1: something of purpose and meaning, then we have to start
Speaker 1: treating ourselves in the way that a coach would, you know,
Speaker 1: and thinking about what kind of results do I want? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, actually the way that I speak to myself
Speaker 1: and the narrative that I'd bring up for myself is
Speaker 1: is going to have a powerful impact too, whether I
Speaker 1: even feel like I can apply myself let alone, whether
Speaker 1: I go ahead and do it so, you know, I think,
Speaker 1: and that's what happens, you know, in in therapy again,
Speaker 1: when when people come along, no matter what their goal
Speaker 1: is or the thing that they're trying to achieve, if
Speaker 1: if those narratives come along, what we always do is
Speaker 1: we kind of say, wow, that's interesting. Did you notice that?
Speaker 1: What's what's that narrative? What's the impact of that? How
Speaker 1: does that leave you feeling? You know, is it always
Speaker 1: this way? Do you ever speak yourself in a different way?
Speaker 1: So we just turned towards it with curiosity. But when
Speaker 1: you do that, you get this kind of bird's eye
Speaker 1: view of things. So rather than being in it and
Speaker 1: accepting that narrative for fact, we kind of step back
Speaker 1: from it and we look at, wow, that's one approach.
Speaker 1: How how impactful is that? How effective is that is
Speaker 1: that getting you where you want to go? And if
Speaker 1: the answers no, then we can start to look at
Speaker 1: more effective ways at you know, working with yourself and
Speaker 1: relating to yourself that that can help you. And this
Speaker 1: brings me back to my original question that I've been
Speaker 1: not asking about the curiosity thing. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: jump into the mind of a listener who hasn't done
Speaker 1: any kind of cognitive behavior therapy work and they have
Speaker 1: anxiety that maybe have depression, but they you know, then
Speaker 1: that's affecting their self esteem. So when you say, you know, don't,
Speaker 1: for the lack of a better term, like, don't beat
Speaker 1: yourself up, but look at these thoughts of curiosity, I
Speaker 1: assume that that might be hard for someone to do
Speaker 1: unless they're being led in a session, because you know,
Speaker 1: even looking at something with curiosity to be kind of
Speaker 1: left your own devices, it might still be done in
Speaker 1: this maladaptive way. So giving a free tip for everyone listening.
Speaker 1: I liked how you just gave a concrete example there
Speaker 1: of saying, oh, you know, that's interesting, look at that.
Speaker 1: And if someone is let's say, sitting there worrying I
Speaker 1: can't get help because of this or that, or you know,
Speaker 1: you know I should be further along in life or
Speaker 1: I whatever that is, for them to stop and look
Speaker 1: at that with curiosity, what's a question they can ask
Speaker 1: themselves to begin doing that in a way that is
Speaker 1: helpful and not more beating themselves up. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I think you're right. It's really key. It's one thing
Speaker 1: to be able to um go into something and and
Speaker 1: talk about it. It's another thing to do that in
Speaker 1: a way that's productive rather than um just stressful or retroubishizing.
Speaker 1: And so I would say, you know, it can that
Speaker 1: stuff can be with a therapist. And I think if
Speaker 1: there's really complex, different stuff to to talk about, then
Speaker 1: it's always recommended. But actually, you know, we've been helping
Speaker 1: each other through difficult things for you know, the the
Speaker 1: entirety of of our ability to use language. So we
Speaker 1: do that through connecting with other people in in a
Speaker 1: good way, you know, finding somebody that you trust that
Speaker 1: you can talk to and and starting to use words
Speaker 1: between you and um. And if you don't have someone
Speaker 1: in your life that you can talk to all that
Speaker 1: you you know, things that you don't want to share
Speaker 1: with another person, you can write them down. You can um,
Speaker 1: you can record them in somewhere, whether that's you know,
Speaker 1: writing down pen and paper or into your phone or
Speaker 1: computer or whatever, or even voice notes to yourself, one
Speaker 1: way of kind of getting it out of your head
Speaker 1: and in front of you so that you can start
Speaker 1: to see it for what it is. Because actually, what
Speaker 1: we don't want to do is add perfectionism to the
Speaker 1: whole process and say, oh gosh, now I'm being self
Speaker 1: critical again. I'm such a being self critical And you know,
Speaker 1: you can kind of get into this internal argument for
Speaker 1: for having had the thoughts in the first place. It
Speaker 1: is really hard to see the wood for the trees
Speaker 1: when you're in it and you're feeling strong emotions and
Speaker 1: all the thoughts are there. We learn first through hindsight,
Speaker 1: so you know, if you start to develop UM, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just so so helpful to do something like journaling.
Speaker 1: You know, once a day, however many minutes works for you,
Speaker 1: whether it's fifteen minutes, half an hour and hour whatever.
Speaker 1: That is just spending time looking over, Okay, what was
Speaker 1: if let's say you're trying to be less self critical,
Speaker 1: whether any moments today when I was self critical? What
Speaker 1: were those things? What came before that, what led up
Speaker 1: to that um and and how did it then make
Speaker 1: me feel afterwards? And just just by doing things like
Speaker 1: that where you start to look at it with a
Speaker 1: bit of a bird's eye view, then you build up
Speaker 1: that It's almost like a sort of mental muscle, so
Speaker 1: the ability to see that for what it is. And
Speaker 1: that's easier to do in hindsight because the emotion has
Speaker 1: passed by the time you sit down with pen and paper.
Speaker 1: But over time you do that and off and you
Speaker 1: start to build up the ability to see it for
Speaker 1: what it is in the moment. And when we start
Speaker 1: to do that, then we open up the opportunity to
Speaker 1: choose something different. But it has to start with, okay,
Speaker 1: so what happened today, what happened this week? What you know?
Speaker 1: And working through it when we've passed all the sort
Speaker 1: of high emotion so that we can do that clearly.
Speaker 1: We build up the practice by doing it that way,
Speaker 1: and then we build up our ability to do it
Speaker 1: more in the moment over time. So I'd say, you know,
Speaker 1: don't don't feel like you have to suddenly just be
Speaker 1: able to do all this stuff. It's difficult. We'll be
Speaker 1: right back. You have a chapter in your book being Enough.
Speaker 1: And this is an expression that when my therapist used
Speaker 1: to say it, I would go crazy because I would think,
Speaker 1: I what does that mean? It sounds you say that
Speaker 1: some people I think that self acceptance is going to
Speaker 1: cause laziness and complacency, And so what what does that mean?
Speaker 1: When when a therapist tells us that we have to
Speaker 1: accept ourselves and know that we're enough? I think, UM,
Speaker 1: For me, it all comes down to um. Not necessarily
Speaker 1: sort of being enough for everyone else or society. But
Speaker 1: it's a it's a having a sense of worthiness based
Speaker 1: on the fact that you're a human being. So it's
Speaker 1: having that compassion for yourself that UM. So it's not
Speaker 1: it's not lying to yourself. It's not telling yourself everything's fine,
Speaker 1: you're doing fine, when maybe you're not. You know, UM.
Speaker 1: And I mean, let's say, let's take an example. Let's
Speaker 1: say my best friend sort of goes off the rails
Speaker 1: for a bit, doesn't study for an exam, takes the exam,
Speaker 1: fails the exam, and it was so important to her
Speaker 1: to pass that in order to get into her in career.
Speaker 1: If I'm going to be that really good friend who
Speaker 1: is compassionate towards her, I'm not going to say, hey,
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. You know it's fine, You'll be okay,
Speaker 1: and that's not not not helpful to her. Actually, the
Speaker 1: most helpful approach there is going to be one of honesty,
Speaker 1: but with kindness and support. So it's gonna say, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know you're upset, this is this is not the
Speaker 1: place you wanted to be at. There have been mistakes
Speaker 1: along the way. We can get through this together. So
Speaker 1: let's you know, it's saying I'm still here for you.
Speaker 1: I'm still you are still worthy to me, whether your
Speaker 1: behavior was its best or not. It's saying, let's work
Speaker 1: through this. It's you know. It's so it's acknowledging that
Speaker 1: your worthiness is not based on whether you get everything
Speaker 1: done perfectly or you achieve you know, and you become
Speaker 1: the best of the best at whatever it is you've
Speaker 1: chosen to do. Is saying, Okay, I'm here with you,
Speaker 1: and I have your best interesting heart. So I'm going
Speaker 1: to help you, um and support you to be the
Speaker 1: best that you can be. And I guess that example
Speaker 1: is from one person to another, but we can also
Speaker 1: do that with ourselves. So it's saying I will have
Speaker 1: my own back no matter what, because you know, I'm
Speaker 1: with me my whole life and we've got to get
Speaker 1: on well. Um. But also but also I'm going to
Speaker 1: be my own best coach. I'm going to be super
Speaker 1: honest with myself. You know, when we talked about the
Speaker 1: tennis example, if if I'm a tennis player and I
Speaker 1: miss a few shots because I've made some mistakes, I
Speaker 1: want my coach to point that out to me when
Speaker 1: I then don't win that match, because we want to
Speaker 1: win the next one. Okay, if he lies to me
Speaker 1: and says, yeah, you're doing great, you're the best player ever,
Speaker 1: it just didn't go your way, then I'm not going
Speaker 1: to learn from that experience. So it's about excepting, Yes,
Speaker 1: I believe in you and I want the best for you,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to also help you learn from this experience.
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, I think self acceptance isn't it
Speaker 1: has to be something very different to self indulgence or
Speaker 1: anything like that to be have my own best interests
Speaker 1: at heart, because I am I am worthy, and I'm
Speaker 1: you know, worthy of love and belonging and all those things.
Speaker 1: And I'm also going to push myself to do the
Speaker 1: best I can do, even when that's the difficult thing
Speaker 1: to do. Right And using our example of this coach,
Speaker 1: there's a chapter in your book about you are not
Speaker 1: your mistakes, And I think what you've illustrated just there
Speaker 1: is perfect because Okay, you made some mistakes in this game.
Speaker 1: We have to acknowledge them so that we can get better.
Speaker 1: But you, inherently, yeah, um, you made mistakes. You are
Speaker 1: not a mistake of a human being. These mistakes were
Speaker 1: made having nothing to do with who you are as
Speaker 1: a person. It could have been the grip on your racket,
Speaker 1: the weather, a choice you made, maybe you psych yourself out,
Speaker 1: maybe just it happened. You know, there's going to be
Speaker 1: those kinds of mistakes too that we can't always control.
Speaker 1: But I love that notion of teaching people that never
Speaker 1: thought about this before. Yes, you made a mistake, but
Speaker 1: you are not your mistakes. And it sounds nice, But
Speaker 1: what if someone asks you, well, what is that. I mean,
Speaker 1: how could I how could I not be my mistake.
Speaker 1: I'm the only one who made it? Like, how do
Speaker 1: you wrangle that desire to think that from them? Again,
Speaker 1: it's it's separating that sense of um of worthiness as
Speaker 1: a human being from behavior. So, you know, behaviors and
Speaker 1: the things you do are a set of choices that
Speaker 1: you make. And sometimes you'll get that right, and sometimes
Speaker 1: you'll get it wrong. And when they're doing all this
Speaker 1: stuff on AI and and they'll they'll test a computer
Speaker 1: against a person in terms of like problem solving, right,
Speaker 1: and and a person is always more likely to give
Speaker 1: up before succeeding because each effort towards you know, solving
Speaker 1: a problem lum essentially, you get it wrong a lot
Speaker 1: of the time. Right when the computer gets it wrong,
Speaker 1: they see that as just a sample. It's just one effort.
Speaker 1: That one didn't work, Try the next one. That one
Speaker 1: didn't work, try the next one. So they keep trying
Speaker 1: different things, right, so their effort continues the same all
Speaker 1: the time. But they're just constantly trying different ways to
Speaker 1: solve problems, and the human being at some point may
Speaker 1: start to think, I'm no good at this, I'm not
Speaker 1: made for this this, I'm terrible, right, So so we
Speaker 1: start that, that narrative begins of I'm not good enough
Speaker 1: for this, I'm never gonna be able to do this,
Speaker 1: I'm terrible whatever. Whatever that narrative is, that then makes
Speaker 1: us more inclined to give up and when actually we
Speaker 1: if we were to keep going, we're more likely to
Speaker 1: get there. And I think that's a sort of nice
Speaker 1: metaphor fusing throughout life that along the way, you know,
Speaker 1: no one gives you this manual forul this is how
Speaker 1: to live perfectly right, This is how to get everything
Speaker 1: right all of the time. So the reality is we're
Speaker 1: going to make mistakes along the way. We're going to
Speaker 1: make mistakes and relationships and work in learning in whatever
Speaker 1: things we apply ourselves to. If we if we hold
Speaker 1: onto okay, whenever I make a mistake, it says something
Speaker 1: fundamental about who I am as a person, am I
Speaker 1: worthiness as a human being, then you're more likely to
Speaker 1: give up. Whereas if you're able to separate your worthiness
Speaker 1: as a human being from efforts and behavior, then you're
Speaker 1: more likely to learn from that experience and try again
Speaker 1: with something different. And in the book actually include a
Speaker 1: section on values check ins where we look at Okay, well,
Speaker 1: not what you want to happen to you, but what
Speaker 1: kind of person do you want to be? And how
Speaker 1: do you want to apply yourself to life? How do
Speaker 1: you want to come at good times and bad times?
Speaker 1: And And I think that's sometimes a really nice way
Speaker 1: of coming back from Okay, I've I've made him say,
Speaker 1: I've done something that I feel terrible about, and I
Speaker 1: know I shouldn't be that way. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: come back to my values. Actually, what are my values
Speaker 1: about the kind of person I want to be? In
Speaker 1: that sort of situation? Did the way I behave match
Speaker 1: up to how I want to be? No? So how
Speaker 1: can I how can I start moving towards that? What
Speaker 1: could I do to shift back towards this value that
Speaker 1: I have about the sort of person I want to
Speaker 1: be or how I want to show up in my
Speaker 1: relationships or whatever that is? Um Which is a nice
Speaker 1: way of just getting clarity, because if we haven't got
Speaker 1: a direction to move towards, then we kind of feel
Speaker 1: a bit lost. I feel like we don't give ourselves
Speaker 1: that raise, that moment to allow ourselves to ask ourselves
Speaker 1: that question. We're so caught up in the minutia of
Speaker 1: I made this mistake, I felt this way during it,
Speaker 1: I felt anxious, I felt this Yeah, absolutely, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're right. It's if we if we see life as
Speaker 1: a test of was I born perfect? Or was I
Speaker 1: born enough and as good as everybody else? You know,
Speaker 1: if we see it like that, then we're always going
Speaker 1: to come up against failure and see that as confirmation
Speaker 1: that we're not good enough. Whereas if we see life
Speaker 1: as something we can constantly work towards and adjust. So
Speaker 1: I mean I distinguished in the book between sort of
Speaker 1: goals and value. So goals will be something that you
Speaker 1: can achieve and once you've done it, it's finished. So
Speaker 1: you get there, you know, you pass, your exam, is done.
Speaker 1: Whereas a value is more like a path that it
Speaker 1: never ends. It's always there, but it's a path that
Speaker 1: means so much to you always want to steer close
Speaker 1: to it, and life pulls you away from those pasts
Speaker 1: at times, right, it just does that, So you know
Speaker 1: you might have a value around I don't know, uh,
Speaker 1: parenting for examples, the kind of parent you want to be,
Speaker 1: but you get pulled away from that for whatever is it?
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe your boss gets really demanding and work gets
Speaker 1: really heavy, and you've not been around as much as
Speaker 1: you want to be, and so that you notice you're
Speaker 1: being pulled away from that value. And and then life
Speaker 1: becomes this process of noticing you've been pulled away from
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're getting too far away from that path,
Speaker 1: so you've got to slightly redirect and come closer to it.
Speaker 1: And it's accepting that you'll never or you you know,
Speaker 1: won't always be perfectly on that pathway, you will be
Speaker 1: You're pulled back and forth. It'll be a windy road.
Speaker 1: But but it's always noticing where is that pathway? Can
Speaker 1: I get closer to it? Can I live more in
Speaker 1: line with my values? Um? Given sort of limitations of
Speaker 1: my life? Um? And so it's a constant adjustment. So
Speaker 1: then you don't need to berate yourself for oh gosh,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm I'm not living in line with that.
Speaker 1: It becomes a learning experience. Actually, no, this isn't how
Speaker 1: I want things to be, because that's really important to
Speaker 1: me too. Um, you know, parents in that kind of
Speaker 1: way or whatever. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna makes
Speaker 1: some adjustments to move closer towards it. You've given a
Speaker 1: great example of how mindfulness meditation for those listening that. Um,
Speaker 1: I've done a few episodes where people have mentioned meditation.
Speaker 1: But that's a great way to get into that kind
Speaker 1: of practice where we're not trying to not if that's
Speaker 1: in our head, which is trying to notice them and
Speaker 1: and and let them go. And um, we're you know,
Speaker 1: there's no such thing as not making mistakes. It's it's
Speaker 1: just how do we move on from it? And that's
Speaker 1: that very practice is kind of what living is. I
Speaker 1: know people don't like to hear that. They want like
Speaker 1: a big fix for everything, but yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah no.
Speaker 1: It's like that with kind of self criticism and stuff
Speaker 1: in therapy. You know, we we don't eliminate it. We
Speaker 1: we start noticing it for what it is. Um, we say,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes we'll even name it with with um.
Speaker 1: One of what people who've had sort of almost relentless
Speaker 1: self criticism, Well, what we need to do is diffuse
Speaker 1: from it and see it as one possible perspective that's
Speaker 1: not a factual, you know, um, reflection of reality. So um,
Speaker 1: sometimes we'll you know, give that voice and that critical
Speaker 1: voice and name. You know, it's I don't know, um
Speaker 1: on eld girl or whatever it is, and you kind
Speaker 1: of and so that when when you start to be
Speaker 1: self critical, you go, oh, there she is again. That's
Speaker 1: that's that's our critical voice, that's the one um. And
Speaker 1: just by doing that, just by stepping back giving it
Speaker 1: a label in that way, you you enable yourself to
Speaker 1: see it for what it is, which is just one
Speaker 1: perspective and often a really really unhelpful one that holds
Speaker 1: you back. And you know, if you're it's a bit.
Speaker 1: By by giving a name or even a sort of
Speaker 1: um a person's name, it kind of it enables you
Speaker 1: to see it in a way that I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's say you're you're with your family and you're all
Speaker 1: around the table at Christmas time or whatever, and and
Speaker 1: there might be someone in the family that always voices
Speaker 1: opinions that that maybe the rest of the family don't
Speaker 1: quite agree with or that feel it appropriate, and and
Speaker 1: you can't eliminate that, and you wouldn't want to eliminate
Speaker 1: that person, but you you kind of are, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: you know, that's Auntie Janet or whatever. That's what she does.
Speaker 1: You know, by by just kind of giving it that label,
Speaker 1: you enable yourself to sort of accept that that narrative
Speaker 1: that that it comes along, but you're kind of removing
Speaker 1: yourself from it, and you're not getting yourself tied up
Speaker 1: in whether it's right or wrong or making it go away.
Speaker 1: You're allowing it to be there, and you're allowing yourself
Speaker 1: to kind of be slightly more free of the impact
Speaker 1: that it could have on you. I love this part
Speaker 1: in your book when you say confident is not the
Speaker 1: same as comfortable. Can you tell us what what that
Speaker 1: exactly means? Confident is not the same as comfortable? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean probably A great example is UM. More recently,
Speaker 1: I've been going on live TV a few times and
Speaker 1: talking about mental health and things like that, and because
Speaker 1: it's brand new to me, UM, it triggers the stress response.
Speaker 1: Right you go into a studio, you're not familiar with it.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of sorts of you know, loads of
Speaker 1: people and big equipment, and so it triggers off your
Speaker 1: stress response and you feel, you know, all of those
Speaker 1: symptoms of anxiety, heart starts to pound and those kind
Speaker 1: of things. And then once you're in that bonts you're
Speaker 1: more likely to catastrophize, so I might you know, they're
Speaker 1: counting down five, four or three am I gonna go live?
Speaker 1: And there's some catastrophizing thoughts say this could go so wrong.
Speaker 1: And and while I feel the anxiety, I know that
Speaker 1: that stress in my body is my body gearing up
Speaker 1: to bring its a game and to perform. And without
Speaker 1: that increased alertness that that stress gives me, I probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't be performing with as much energy as if I
Speaker 1: was just completely chilled out. And I know it's because
Speaker 1: it's a novel new experience to me that my brain
Speaker 1: is saying, Staler, you don't know what could happen here,
Speaker 1: and so um. But I'm still confident in that situation
Speaker 1: while experiencing that anxiety, because I know that I know
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, So I know that I know my psychology,
Speaker 1: so I know I can talk about that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: and I've been talking about it for you know, for years,
Speaker 1: and so I trust in my ability to do that.
Speaker 1: But I also don't need everything to go perfectly right
Speaker 1: to be okay with it. Let's say you know, some
Speaker 1: I don't know, something awful happened and I tripped over
Speaker 1: our live TV and my dress ends up over my
Speaker 1: head or whatever. I know, you know, I know that
Speaker 1: I am not going to use that as fuel to
Speaker 1: get down on myself and um criticize myself and hate myself.
Speaker 1: I know that I will whatever happens. I have committed
Speaker 1: to having my own back, so I will do what
Speaker 1: I need to do to look after myself whether things
Speaker 1: go right or wrong for me. And it's that it's
Speaker 1: that ultimate kind of self compassion that enables me to
Speaker 1: be in really difficult circumstances with this sort of inner confidence.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I don't feel anxious about oh, something
Speaker 1: could go wrong here. That's still you know, that's your
Speaker 1: body doing what it does best. That stresses is positive
Speaker 1: in that sense, but it enables me to just carry
Speaker 1: that confidence that whether something goes wrong or not, I
Speaker 1: will deal with it with the best side I can.
Speaker 1: We'll continue the interview on the flip side of a
Speaker 1: quick message from our sponsors to make you an example,
Speaker 1: which I know you just gave me an example. But
Speaker 1: when this book was finished, and you know they were
Speaker 1: printing it up and printing it, did you have a
Speaker 1: feeling that it would be this huge international best seller?
Speaker 1: And did that affect you in any way where you
Speaker 1: had to do some work to get ready for the
Speaker 1: possibility of all of this attention. And then, of course
Speaker 1: I assume with that much attention brings criticism. You know,
Speaker 1: I wrote that book twenty years ago. No one cared,
Speaker 1: do you know. Whatever. People get jealous and they say things,
Speaker 1: did you have to do any sort of emotional or
Speaker 1: psychological prep to get ready to receive the spotlight or
Speaker 1: even the possibility? Oh my god, what if it just
Speaker 1: makes it thunk in the woods and no one hears it?
Speaker 1: And now, yeah, I mean it's super scary, right, It
Speaker 1: makes you really vulnerable, um, you know, putting things on
Speaker 1: to paper and putting them out into the world. And
Speaker 1: so it was. It was a really interesting emotional experience
Speaker 1: in that sense. And and yeah, I guess I did
Speaker 1: um look after myself in a sense that I always
Speaker 1: stayed close to that that original idea for doing any
Speaker 1: of this, which was to be helpful. There are some
Speaker 1: really great insights from therapy that just don't make it
Speaker 1: outside of the therapy room door for whatever reason, or
Speaker 1: or some of them do but aren't necessarily explained in
Speaker 1: a helpful way or a way that I would find
Speaker 1: interesting or engaging or you know, approachable. And so I
Speaker 1: felt like that that my piece of writing was about
Speaker 1: me trying to just share good information and be helpful.
Speaker 1: And so again, it wasn't who I am, it was
Speaker 1: it was something I did. And um, I probably looked
Speaker 1: at myself by staying away from things like reviews for
Speaker 1: a while. I think my husband looked and stuff. But
Speaker 1: but it would have been it would have been me
Speaker 1: trying to get confirmation that it was okay. And actually
Speaker 1: it was privileged. I kind of saw it as privileged
Speaker 1: enough to be able to given given the opportunity to
Speaker 1: write a book and have it published was enough for
Speaker 1: me and um, And so I didn't then want to
Speaker 1: experience that kind of roller coaster of putting myself worth
Speaker 1: into the hands of other people based on based on
Speaker 1: reading something I wrote. You know. So um that definitely
Speaker 1: helped UM. But yeah, I guess nothing can can prepare
Speaker 1: you for um the way that it's just sort of yeah,
Speaker 1: taken on a life of its own, this book. It's
Speaker 1: that's wild to keep it going to the old. Those
Speaker 1: are two really important things, because you're not saying, oh, well, yes,
Speaker 1: you know for six weeks. I got a bit six
Speaker 1: am and I meditated and I didn't eat sugar. It's
Speaker 1: just sort of you know, you're living your values. You
Speaker 1: you've already set the intention, which is I'm trying to
Speaker 1: put things out there that are going to help people.
Speaker 1: It goes back to what you said about defining your values.
Speaker 1: You know. It's these it's these almost like big girl
Speaker 1: grown up things that you talk about in your book
Speaker 1: that really are such I think what goes hand in
Speaker 1: hand with cognitive behavior therapy and anxiety work and breathing
Speaker 1: and all that, it's it's kind of just growing up
Speaker 1: a little bit. I feel like this you've given the
Speaker 1: closest thing that we have out there to a manual
Speaker 1: of kind of how to how to grow up, even
Speaker 1: no matter how old you are. You know, and I
Speaker 1: think you know that. I think the whole thing was
Speaker 1: probably helped by um having children. UM that I when
Speaker 1: when I'm facing something that I probably have the urge
Speaker 1: to avoid doing altogether because it's scary and it makes
Speaker 1: me vulnerable, I it really helps me to return to
Speaker 1: that sense of sort of deep compassion that have for
Speaker 1: my children. So in thinking, okay, if my daughter was
Speaker 1: going through this. What would I want her to have
Speaker 1: the strength to do or to say to herself? How
Speaker 1: would I want her to treat herself? And how would
Speaker 1: I want her to feel about you know, other people's opinions,
Speaker 1: positive and negative, and and that always helps me to
Speaker 1: just um, sort of re engage with this idea that UM,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't get too wrapped up in the
Speaker 1: you know, I appreciate all the positive stuff that's come
Speaker 1: out of it, but I don't I don't allow it
Speaker 1: to change my view of myself in terms of I'm
Speaker 1: no better, I'm no different and um. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, if somebody picks up the book and hates it,
Speaker 1: I'm no better or no different than either. It's just
Speaker 1: a piece of work I did, and it's something that
Speaker 1: I did with good intentions, trying to be as helpful
Speaker 1: as I can UM in the world with what I've
Speaker 1: learned so far, and um, and I guess it's that
Speaker 1: that sort of solid um confidence that I would want
Speaker 1: my daughter to have, you know, I want her to
Speaker 1: um be UM, not too rocked by how mean or
Speaker 1: how wonderful other people can be. It's just to be
Speaker 1: certainly okay, I'm gonna make my contribution to the world,
Speaker 1: and and and then so be what what happened? What happens.
Speaker 1: I'll look after myself that kind of thing. And lastly,
Speaker 1: I do want to talk about your social media presence
Speaker 1: and and just social media in general as of course
Speaker 1: for good um and I'll be promoting your videos in
Speaker 1: the talk up intro that I do. But your your
Speaker 1: videos on TikTok are so great. First of all, they're beautiful.
Speaker 1: There's so just colorful and really cool to look at.
Speaker 1: But you have these succinct metaphors and analogies and helpful
Speaker 1: ways of talking to people about different things they may
Speaker 1: be experiencing, whether it's stress or grief or self doubt
Speaker 1: or whatnot. And look, I know we all have to
Speaker 1: be on social media as authors, performers, whatever. I'm on
Speaker 1: it too, and I always say I would not be
Speaker 1: here if I wasn't trying to promote something. But you know,
Speaker 1: I don't always think it's that that cut and dry.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you want to promote your book, but
Speaker 1: I think that obviously, as you know, because you're the
Speaker 1: one doing it, these little videos exist on their own.
Speaker 1: If if for some reason it didn't duna mean, you
Speaker 1: had this book, those videos give me a piece of
Speaker 1: advice you know that I can use that day or whatnot.
Speaker 1: And to do that, I think is I think great
Speaker 1: to flood the internet with things that are helpful instead
Speaker 1: of us all going on the internet got out of control.
Speaker 1: Is I'll just take our ball and go home. So
Speaker 1: do you have any opinions or passions about putting help
Speaker 1: on the internet, because I know, not everyone has access
Speaker 1: to a therapist, some people may not even think they
Speaker 1: need one, there may not be one available, whatever, But
Speaker 1: do you think that giving kind of mental health um
Speaker 1: advice or talking about it on the internet can be
Speaker 1: a force for good? Yeah, I mean I certainly. I
Speaker 1: was showing videos for you know, um almost two years
Speaker 1: before the book came out, and and so it started
Speaker 1: without thinking of it as a sort of any kind
Speaker 1: of marketing tool. But it started with Okay, there's this
Speaker 1: really helpful stuff in therapy that I'm teaching it to people,
Speaker 1: and it feels like they're they're learning this for the
Speaker 1: first time, and people should have access to this. So
Speaker 1: it really even joining social media started as this kind
Speaker 1: of project where it felt like a good thing to do,
Speaker 1: to to share this information for free, and where is
Speaker 1: everybody's attention, Well, it's over there on that free platform.
Speaker 1: So let's try and put something on there. And and
Speaker 1: then it became a bit of an experiment to make
Speaker 1: it as creative and engaging as possible so that you know,
Speaker 1: people were there with their their thumbs or fingers waiting
Speaker 1: to kind of scroll onto the next video. And so
Speaker 1: it became a bit of a challenge to you know,
Speaker 1: with probably the least sexy subjects going, you know, how
Speaker 1: can I talk about mental health and keep people watching
Speaker 1: and keep people engaged when they might not usually, So um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it became a it became a sort of real challenge.
Speaker 1: And but obviously in the world of therapy, where a
Speaker 1: lot of therapists just aren't even on social media, it
Speaker 1: felt like I was domming against the tide professionally. But
Speaker 1: I kind of felt like, you know, I can sit
Speaker 1: in my office and complain about you know, potential misinformation
Speaker 1: or whatever it is that people are accessing on social media,
Speaker 1: or I can get in there and like say, add
Speaker 1: something positive to the mix and slightly increase the chances
Speaker 1: that anyone with those sorts of problems could come across
Speaker 1: my information, which is evidence space and you know, from
Speaker 1: therapy and things so um and and honestly, I thought
Speaker 1: it was going to be one of those projects that
Speaker 1: you just did for a while because it felt like
Speaker 1: a nic thing to do, and then it would fizzle out.
Speaker 1: I thought would be a couple of months max. And
Speaker 1: but that the flood of messages and emails that started
Speaker 1: to come through instantly every day, I was just overwhelming it.
Speaker 1: You know, people say, wow, that's I never thought of
Speaker 1: it like that before. This has really helped. I'm sharing
Speaker 1: it with my mom or my sister, we're working on together.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. What's their next bit? And people
Speaker 1: kind of asking for more and more and more. And
Speaker 1: it was that realization, actually, this is reaching real people,
Speaker 1: and it's having enough of them an impact that they
Speaker 1: take the time to find out what my email addresses,
Speaker 1: send me a page about how it's impacting on their life.
Speaker 1: I can't stop now, I've got to, you know, I've
Speaker 1: got to do this. And so it all started with
Speaker 1: that idea of it being kind of free content, and
Speaker 1: I still do all of that. You know, we put
Speaker 1: out you know, several videos a week as men as
Speaker 1: we can um and and the book just became really
Speaker 1: that kind of add on where people were saying, this
Speaker 1: is really helpful, what's the how to, what's the step
Speaker 1: by step, what's the details. Of course, short form video
Speaker 1: is a great way to reach lots of people, but
Speaker 1: you've only got sixty seconds, so I can't get the details.
Speaker 1: So the book really just became about getting the detail
Speaker 1: and for the people that really wanted to take it
Speaker 1: seriously and and put it into their lives. But I
Speaker 1: think that again, being able to convey messages on short
Speaker 1: form media like TikTok does prove that you are talking
Speaker 1: about simple but not easy, but simple concepts. It's there's
Speaker 1: no real mystery here too taking care of your mental health.
Speaker 1: It's just it's available to us, just a matter of
Speaker 1: if we want to do it. And I do think
Speaker 1: it's a great resource also for people who do know
Speaker 1: a lot of about this already, but maybe they want
Speaker 1: to find a palatable way to show it to someone
Speaker 1: they love instead of saying, here's a book. You you
Speaker 1: seem like you have some anxiety. I imagine it must
Speaker 1: be difficult for in the professional space. It's like, but
Speaker 1: you're not recording client sessions on a hitten camera like
Speaker 1: you're just talking about what you've learned. Nothing, you're not,
Speaker 1: that's it. It's just educating. And I think the more
Speaker 1: that we, you know, use simple things like that to
Speaker 1: um start conversations about mental health, the more we see
Speaker 1: it in line with physical health. You know, it's not
Speaker 1: embarrassing to work with your physical health. It's not embarrassing
Speaker 1: to say, do you know what, I've got a dodgy nie.
Speaker 1: So I'm doing these exercises each day, and then I'm
Speaker 1: going to go and visit my my doctor at the
Speaker 1: end of the week. That's not embarrassing to do. People
Speaker 1: do those talk about these things openly and freely. It
Speaker 1: should be the same if you know, I do know
Speaker 1: what I've been feeling X what I said this week,
Speaker 1: and so I'm going to try this, this and this,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to go intee my therapist. People should
Speaker 1: feel just as free to talk opening about those things
Speaker 1: with people they trust as they are with their physical health.
Speaker 1: So I guess that's the dream. Anxiety Bites will be
Speaker 1: right back after a quick little message from one of
Speaker 1: our sponsors. Heyy, thanks for sticking around for this part
Speaker 1: of the podcast. I will be giving some audio bullet
Speaker 1: points um of things that we learned from Dr Julie
Speaker 1: Smith today in our takeaway portion of Anxiety Bites. If
Speaker 1: you want to read the takeaways, you may visit my
Speaker 1: website Jen Kirkman dot com click Anxiety Bites and yes,
Speaker 1: the direct link is in the show notes on whatever
Speaker 1: app you're listening on, and you may look at takeaways
Speaker 1: from every episode of Anxiety Bites all there on my website.
Speaker 1: So key points I think to take away from today.
Speaker 1: The obsession to have good self esteem may not be
Speaker 1: that helpful. Self esteem is helpful in terms of the
Speaker 1: way that we feel about ourselves in terms of that
Speaker 1: that can be information. However, we feel about ourselves can
Speaker 1: be information, whether it's positive or negative. It's important to
Speaker 1: turn towards our feelings with curiosity before we just reflexibly
Speaker 1: try to change them. We should look at what we
Speaker 1: feel so that we can get to work on understanding
Speaker 1: why that is and how it can help us or
Speaker 1: whether it's hindering us. Now, you can do work like
Speaker 1: this in therapy. If it appeals to you, you may
Speaker 1: want to ask your therapist if you can work on
Speaker 1: getting help with learning about how to look at your
Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings with curiosity, and if you don't have
Speaker 1: a therapist once again, you can get a copy of
Speaker 1: Dr Julie Smith's book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?
Speaker 1: And then even just going back and listening to this
Speaker 1: episode and listening carefully to these takeaways and visiting my website,
Speaker 1: you can see the kind of questions that Dr Julie
Speaker 1: Smith has her patients ask themselves, and you can start
Speaker 1: there with just a daily practice of asking yourself, either
Speaker 1: in your mind or in your journal these questions. To
Speaker 1: have constant positive self esteem would suggest that you've never
Speaker 1: made mistakes or done less than you're capable of. It's
Speaker 1: not unhealthy or disordered. If you reach a period of
Speaker 1: your life where you are not okay with the person
Speaker 1: you are or the way that your behavior, it could
Speaker 1: be a moment to admit that you're not at your
Speaker 1: best or doing the best for yourself or your family
Speaker 1: or your career. It's okay to feel dissatisfaction and then
Speaker 1: learn from it and move on and progress. Comparing ourselves
Speaker 1: to others is tricky because we are built to do
Speaker 1: that as social beings. Our brains do this to see
Speaker 1: if we are living up to the expectations of our communities.
Speaker 1: It was once a survival instinct. However, we are in
Speaker 1: a new moment where we have access to billions of
Speaker 1: people on social media and can wrap the compare ourselves
Speaker 1: to many people who are only putting their best foot forward.
Speaker 1: The need to compare ourselves to others was more adaptive
Speaker 1: when we lived in small communities and again when it
Speaker 1: was a survival thing at the time. We can't eliminate
Speaker 1: comparing ourselves to others because it does just happen naturally.
Speaker 1: But what can be worked on in therapy is stepping
Speaker 1: back and noticing that natural urge. Ask yourself, what kind
Speaker 1: of people are you comparing yourself to today? Ask yourself
Speaker 1: if you're comparing up or comparing down, and what is
Speaker 1: that impact on you? Again, coming at this with curiosity,
Speaker 1: and then practice the ability to let these thoughts move
Speaker 1: on and only hold on to the thoughts that are
Speaker 1: helping you. Language is important in helping us heal, whether
Speaker 1: that's connecting with other people, finding somebody you can trust
Speaker 1: to talk to, or you can write your thoughts down,
Speaker 1: whether with pen or paper, at your computer, on a
Speaker 1: voice memo. As long as you get the thoughts out
Speaker 1: of your head and start to see them for what
Speaker 1: they are now. I know I said on a voice memo,
Speaker 1: as though you write on a voice memo, but speaking
Speaker 1: it into something that is going to record your words
Speaker 1: so that you can listen back to them later and
Speaker 1: here where you are at on a certain day, or
Speaker 1: hear what you're thinking sounds like because I'm just interjecting.
Speaker 1: Our thinking can seem pretty normal to us until we
Speaker 1: see it on paper and sometimes hear ourselves say it.
Speaker 1: And again that's if you, um, I want to do
Speaker 1: that on your own, if you want to talk to
Speaker 1: a friend. A lot of times just we need something
Speaker 1: to reflect what we just said, especially if what we
Speaker 1: just said is something that is really destructive in terms
Speaker 1: of how we talk about ourselves and think about ourselves,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times things that just aren't true
Speaker 1: that we say to ourselves. If you're trying to be
Speaker 1: less self critical, ask yourself at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: if there were any moments when you were self critical,
Speaker 1: what were those things, what came just before that moment
Speaker 1: of self criticism, and how did it make you feel afterwards.
Speaker 1: Being quote enough means that you have a sense of
Speaker 1: worthiness based on the fact that you're a human being.
Speaker 1: Worthiness is not based on whether you get everything done
Speaker 1: perfectly or achieved being the best. It's a way of
Speaker 1: saying to yourself, I'm here with you and I have
Speaker 1: your best interests at heart. When we make mistakes, it
Speaker 1: does not mean that we are a mistake and that
Speaker 1: it says something fundamental about who we are. It's okay
Speaker 1: to say that you've done something that you feel terrible about,
Speaker 1: and then it's time to come back to your values
Speaker 1: and think about the kind of person you want to
Speaker 1: be and how you can start moving towards that. Having
Speaker 1: self compassion means that you're committed to have in your
Speaker 1: own back whether things go right or wrong for you.
Speaker 1: Once again, thank you to Dr Julie Smith for coming
Speaker 1: onto the podcast. You can get her book Why Has
Speaker 1: Nobody Told Me This Before? Wherever you get books and
Speaker 1: visit the show notes to find her TikTok account and
Speaker 1: her Instagram account where she does really great, short, really
Speaker 1: visually stimulating, colorful, helpful videos about all aspects of mental
Speaker 1: health and the way that we think about things and
Speaker 1: and these videos give a a quick lesson in how
Speaker 1: to reframe a lot of situations that we're in in life,
Speaker 1: and on this last episode of Anxiety Bites, I I
Speaker 1: don't have any deep, profound thoughts about what this experience
Speaker 1: has been like, but I've been completely blown away. And
Speaker 1: thanks to my producers j J and Dylan for booking
Speaker 1: such incredible guests. But that that the guests said yes
Speaker 1: to my request for them to come on the show,
Speaker 1: I was really honored and talked to a lot of
Speaker 1: people who have long been heroes of mine and teachers
Speaker 1: of mine, you know that had no idea they were
Speaker 1: teaching me. But one thing I found interesting during Anxiety Bites,
Speaker 1: and it had nothing to do with actually getting on
Speaker 1: the microphone and doing this podcast itself, was some of
Speaker 1: the questions that people asked me. And these are people
Speaker 1: I know. A few people I know asked me all
Speaker 1: separate times. Is doing the podcast every week something that
Speaker 1: actually makes you more anxious? And honestly, I wanted to
Speaker 1: jump out of my skin and just I was almost
Speaker 1: a little mad at that question. No, first of all,
Speaker 1: on nineteen levels, right, you know, you think someone who
Speaker 1: knows you a little bit went understand that I started
Speaker 1: this podcast because I felt like I had something to offer.
Speaker 1: I felt like I had enough anxiety recovery to be
Speaker 1: able to speak intelligently to my guests who were going
Speaker 1: to be talking about some of the things I had
Speaker 1: gone through. But I didn't want to be the expert
Speaker 1: and be telling you all what to do. But I
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to kind of keep up with
Speaker 1: my guests and not be learning everything for the first time,
Speaker 1: although I did learn a lot for the first time
Speaker 1: through all of my guests, of course, But if it
Speaker 1: was something that made me anxious, I would have talked
Speaker 1: about it on the podcast and had you you know,
Speaker 1: I would have wanted you all to experience me walking
Speaker 1: through that anxiety to see what it would look like
Speaker 1: as an example of what it looks like when we
Speaker 1: walk through anxiety. Now again, the people that know me
Speaker 1: that asked me that maybe they don't even listen to
Speaker 1: the podcast, and that's fine, but and and one person
Speaker 1: that I don't know very well, but they asked me
Speaker 1: what I do, and I said, I'm a writer, but
Speaker 1: I also put podcast and they wanted to know what
Speaker 1: the podcast was about. Blah blah blah. So they asked
Speaker 1: the same question, and I think, what's so frustrating about
Speaker 1: it is well, first of all, as we know, I
Speaker 1: can be easily frustrating. We've talked about my a d
Speaker 1: h D diagnosis, and how you know, there's that kind
Speaker 1: of like quick to react things. I mean, I didn't react,
Speaker 1: but I only reacted in my heart. But it's frustrating
Speaker 1: because talking about it is exactly what we need to
Speaker 1: do to lessen the anxiety. And and by the way,
Speaker 1: maybe we don't even need to think about why we
Speaker 1: need to talk about it, oh, because it will bring
Speaker 1: down all of our anxiety because we're already putting too
Speaker 1: much expectation on it. We should just talk about it
Speaker 1: because we should talk about everything. We should talk about
Speaker 1: everything that we are experiencing as humans, because all too often,
Speaker 1: even the smartest people have told me that they think
Speaker 1: they're the only people who feel a certain way. And
Speaker 1: it's just almost impossible that you would be the only
Speaker 1: human being on earth to feel a certain way. And
Speaker 1: if that's true, then you should be being studying in
Speaker 1: a lab and you, you know, get an award you
Speaker 1: the most unique person who ever lived. But no wonder
Speaker 1: people think this because we don't talk about anything. We
Speaker 1: don't even talk about our feelings, whether we have a
Speaker 1: diagnosable anxiety disorder or not. We just don't talk about feelings.
Speaker 1: My biggest annoyance in life is small to right. So
Speaker 1: think of how many times a day and he goes, hi,
Speaker 1: how are you and you got good? That's not true.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you're good, maybe there's many details to it.
Speaker 1: Maybe you're good because you just had therapy. Maybe you're
Speaker 1: good because you just had a change in perspective on something,
Speaker 1: but this morning you weren't whatever. I mean, it would
Speaker 1: be so interesting if we answered this question honestly. I mean,
Speaker 1: it might be time consuming, but in general you can
Speaker 1: just see little examples like that of how we're just cultural.
Speaker 1: You taught two just say good, keep moving. And so
Speaker 1: for me, it's like again, if if talking about anxiety
Speaker 1: on this podcast caused me anxiety, I would have mentioned
Speaker 1: it to you and talked about that. But in general,
Speaker 1: we're not trying to avoid anxiety because that only feeds it.
Speaker 1: I mean, most of our problems, if we were anxious,
Speaker 1: comes from not just the anxiety itself, but we keep
Speaker 1: the anxiety going, like throwing five logs onto a fire.
Speaker 1: We keep the anxiety going when we use our maladaptive skills,
Speaker 1: which a lot of times involve avoiding something that makes
Speaker 1: us anxious. Whether it's you're avoiding driving over a bridge,
Speaker 1: or you're avoiding talking about it, whatever it is, it
Speaker 1: often involves avoidance, sometimes avoiding even thinking about it, which
Speaker 1: is why a lot of people are hesitant to do,
Speaker 1: you know, like more kind of exposure therapies like we
Speaker 1: talked about on the O c D episode and so no, no,
Speaker 1: no no, And even if talking about anxiety on this
Speaker 1: podcast made my anxiety worse, I would still do it
Speaker 1: because it's like I talked about with Josh Anxiety Josh
Speaker 1: from the UK on an earlier episode, when I told
Speaker 1: him that I'd been avoiding going on this subway line
Speaker 1: because it goes over a bridge outside and I just
Speaker 1: don't sometimes don't like that feeling, or I'm I'm worried.
Speaker 1: I won't like that feeling, even though I love being
Speaker 1: on a subway and I don't mind, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a small height, I don't mind looking over the bridge
Speaker 1: over the city. It's really cool. But it was like
Speaker 1: I was worried about panicking. I wasn't even worried about
Speaker 1: the actual thing I was doing. And he said, then
Speaker 1: you get back on that subway and you practice, you
Speaker 1: practice sitting there having a panic attack, You practice the
Speaker 1: feelings of de realization. And again, so any time that
Speaker 1: something we're doing is causing us anxiety and not the
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety that's really you know, a red flag
Speaker 1: and is telling us this is dangerous. But but but
Speaker 1: what people were asking me about, oh, doesn't it make
Speaker 1: you more anxious, It's like, no, it's always an opportunity
Speaker 1: to practice sitting with the anxiety, letting it do its thing.
Speaker 1: And however you have been um working on it too,
Speaker 1: let it dissipate or just let it be with you
Speaker 1: until it's okay. Because we're going to have anxiety, we're
Speaker 1: going to have panic attacks. We're going to have even
Speaker 1: if you don't have anxiety or panic thoughts that plague
Speaker 1: us whatever it is. I'm not saying the answer to
Speaker 1: everything is to just talk about it and sit with it.
Speaker 1: But for sure the answer is not don't talk about
Speaker 1: it and don't do a podcast about it because it
Speaker 1: might make you more anxious. And I also think what
Speaker 1: they don't realize they were asking is aren't you over
Speaker 1: analyzing it? That's what I really I felt there was
Speaker 1: no I don't think they were aware of it, but
Speaker 1: like an accidental almost judgment on their part. But but again,
Speaker 1: I don't think they were judging. I don't think they
Speaker 1: would think they were judging. But it's that the thing
Speaker 1: I've heard before from people when when they would find out,
Speaker 1: you know, or you go to therapy every week and
Speaker 1: you've been going this long, and it's like, aren't you
Speaker 1: done over analyzing everything? It's like, well, that's for somere
Speaker 1: not analyzing anything. I'm speaking about things and someone is
Speaker 1: helping me make choices about how I want to work
Speaker 1: through them or how I want to look at things
Speaker 1: so that I'm not actually a burden to myself and others,
Speaker 1: so that I'm able to get the coping skills I
Speaker 1: need to be a productive member of society. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's this notion like the more therapy or in the worst,
Speaker 1: it gets, which is just not true unless, of course,
Speaker 1: you are having some kind of psychotic relationship with your therapist.
Speaker 1: But in general, there's this notion of if we look
Speaker 1: at something, it gets bigger, and I believe it's exactly
Speaker 1: the opposite. It doesn't necessarily get smaller, but our perception
Speaker 1: of how big it is might change. So that's my
Speaker 1: parting wisdom, which is although I will not be here
Speaker 1: for the rest of the year, you will not hear
Speaker 1: new episodes of Anxiety Bites, you can still talk about anxiety,
Speaker 1: and I would be honored if you use this podcast
Speaker 1: as a way to bring up talking about anxiety with anybody.
Speaker 1: If if you relate with any episode, you want to
Speaker 1: pass it on to someone in order to say to
Speaker 1: them this is what I have or this is how
Speaker 1: it feels to be me. That's another great way to
Speaker 1: use this podcast. The episodes will be up and again
Speaker 1: all the takeaways will be on my website. And if
Speaker 1: you want to look at audio grams, which is you know,
Speaker 1: um anywhere from one to three minute audio lips of
Speaker 1: every episode and in the audio gram it will tell
Speaker 1: you who the guest is, what the episode number was.
Speaker 1: You can find all of those on my Twitter which
Speaker 1: is at Jen Kirkman. They also exist on my Instagram
Speaker 1: and on my TikTok. All of those accounts are at
Speaker 1: Jen Kirkman and you can scroll through and listen to
Speaker 1: little bite sized ones anytime that you want. They're also
Speaker 1: on my YouTube page. Um so again. If you click
Speaker 1: the link in the show notes to my bio link,
Speaker 1: you can get access to all of my social media
Speaker 1: and find out where else you can find me. If
Speaker 1: you grew attached to me, I would like to keep
Speaker 1: up with what's going on with me outside of this podcast,
Speaker 1: So thanks again for listening, for subscribing, for all of
Speaker 1: the great feedback I got, and remember anxiety bites, but
Speaker 1: you're in control. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.