WEBVTT - Why Has Nobody Told Me This? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:10.880 Yeah, this is the Anxiety Bites podcast and I am 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:17.840 your host, Jen Kirkman. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.800 Welcome to the season finale of Anxiety Bites. I'm your host, 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:26.759 Jen Kirkman. My guest today is Dr Julie Smith. I 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.280 love how this episode with Dr Julie lined up to 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.520 be the last episode because she has a book out 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:39.240 that's quite popular called Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.400 And then the byeline is Everyday Tolls for Life's Ups 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:48.680 and Downs? And I think that's just a nice note 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.839 to end on why has Nobody told Me This Before? 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.840 I think that could be said when you look back 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:00.280 on all my guests, from therapist to dr is, to 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:07.800 internal medicine doctors to neuroscientists, artists, authors, researchers, all of 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:12.520 the information that they present has been around for decades, 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.680 and yet there's this if the first time you heard 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:20.360 of some of this information was on this podcast that 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:27.360 a former comedian and comedy writer currently hosts, It's like, 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.920 why is that person the one that brought this information 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.000 to me? Why isn't this taught in schools? Why isn't 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:40.679 this just I don't know, known, you know, and so 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.759 I just love I just love book ending it with 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:46.559 why has nobody told me this before? And I feel 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.880 that way about a lot of things when I learned 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:50.960 them for the first time. There's this notion that, oh, well, 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.240 I fad had this information sooner, Well, I really would 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.960 have nailed it it life. But I don't know if 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.560 that's necessarily true. I don't think we should take an 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.200 opportunity about learning something new to beat ourselves up for 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.320 Oh my god, imagine if I'd known this. That's more like, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:09.720 thank God, I know this now, But yeah, why has 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.119 nobody told me this before? So obviously in Dr Julie's book, 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:17.040 there are things that you know, we've gone over in 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:24.040 this podcast, but she had a few chapters that I 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:29.880 thought were really important messages to leave you all with 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.040 that I don't even necessarily have to do with you 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.640 have some diagnosed anxiety disorder, or you have this, or 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:41.760 you've been to therapy, but just ways that you know, um, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.480 having a maybe an undiagnosed mental health issue or a 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.560 diagnosed one that you're working on, or whatever it is, 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:54.200 that it does affect more than just your behavioral responses 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.239 to said mental health issue. Right, like to put it 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.600 very simply, if you had obsessive compulsive disorder, you might 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.320 be very focused on how do I get these thoughts 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.280 to stop? How do I stop ruminating? And then you 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.800 might be focused on the treatment for that. But a 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.880 lot of times there are ways that having a mental 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.640 health issue, you know, whether it's a history of depression 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.720 and history of anxiety, that it really affects a lot 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.119 of our parts of ourselves that we don't normally think 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:25.520 have to do with taking care of our mental health, 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:29.760 like our self esteem and our confidence and the notion 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.560 that we are not our mistakes and and so I 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.840 wanted to talk to Dr Julie about these concepts, and 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.960 I think there's a lot of everyday tools that you 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:43.600 can take right now out of my interview with Dr Julie. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.360 And I also wanted to talk to her about the 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.920 fact that she is something of a tech talk celebrity 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.960 because she has these wonderful, easy to understand, colorful, you know, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:59.680 well produced, beautifully filmed videos where she usually shows with 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.920 some kind of object in this very creative way, how 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.080 our minds work and how we can reframe the way 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.240 that we see things when we're taking care of our 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.520 mental health, and you know, there is a whole new 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.360 world out there for people who are therapists, who see clients, 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.080 who are psychiatrists and doctors to put themselves out there 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.640 on social media and have to navigate this new landscape 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.640 well maybe dealing with criticism that you know, they shouldn't 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.440 be doing this, they should be more of an anonymous 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.840 person or whatever. And so I didn't want it to 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.440 pass us by that I was also talking with someone 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:40.400 who deals with herself what it's like to be out 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.280 there in the world on social media and what she 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:49.120 does in order to keep herself in the right headspace, 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.080 you know, in terms of putting herself out there and 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.279 on there and mixing it up in the internet world. 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.320 So I hope you enjoy my interview and com station 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.560 with Dr Julie Smith. Will see you on the flip 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.640 side of that interview where I will give you takeaways 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.200 from this episode and some takeaways my own thoughts about 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:12.440 what it's been like posting this podcast, what I've learned 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:21.039 and what I haven't learned. So Dr Julie, I absolutely 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.920 love your book. Why has nobody told me this before? 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.039 And before we get into some of the great coping 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:32.360 skills life skills that are in this book. Was there 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.480 any personal reason besides the fact that you are a 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.440 doctor and you want to get this information out there, 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:40.680 why you framed it this way and called it Why 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.400 has nobody told me this before? And yeah, I mean 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:46.840 it's a good question that the title actually came out 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:49.640 of the reason I started doing any of this in 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:53.120 the first place, which was I was I was running 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:55.599 a very small private practice, and lots of the people 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.920 coming through for therapy once they had the educational aspect 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.960 a therapy, so they learned a bit about how their 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:04.280 own brain works and how they could impact in their 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.320 own mood and their own emotions and things like that. 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.960 That once they had that information, so many of them 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.880 were raring to go, and they were saying, Wow, how 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.640 how has no one told me this before? You know, 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.359 it's not rocket science. I can put it into my 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.000 life fairly simply. But when I do, it's having this 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:24.920 impact and my life is getting better. So this is 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:26.880 probably you know, And these are the things that people 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.800 would find really helpful and take away, and they were 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.600 the kind of the tools that they would keep hold 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.040 of that increase their confidence to be able to manage 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.839 whatever came up. So rather than needing to know that 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.320 everything was going to be okay, these seem to be 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.200 the things that helped people to know that whatever happened, 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.120 they would be all right. And you know, it was 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.160 the sort of so the title really came out of 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:51.240 an amalgamation of what people used to say to me. 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.120 How have I not learned this in school? Why has 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.680 nobody told me this before? This is really helpful? So 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.680 it was me wanting to kind of put all of 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.360 those things into one place so that people didn't have 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.160 to You know, lots of people can't have access to 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.920 therapy for many of different reasons. Um, but I don't 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.159 see why people should have to pay to come see 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:10.880 people like me to find out that basic stuff about 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.960 how their mind works. And you mentioned self confidence, and 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:19.080 I think we'll start there. I have been trying for 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.720 the whole time that I've I've done this podcast all 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:27.000 year to infuse little moments of my belief which it 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.200 didn't come up with myself, obviously, but from learning and 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.080 working on my own anxiety that once we start to 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:37.280 build confidence and do things that give us self esteem, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:41.800 that becomes addictive. So it brings me to this part 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.800 of your book, this little mini chapter that's part of 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.760 a bigger chapter, why you don't need to work on 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.920 your self esteem. I love that. Obviously it's a very 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:57.720 provocative heading. But tell us what you meant by that. So, 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.120 I think self esteem it's one of these concepts that's 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:04.760 been um sort of talked about and promoted as um, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.840 you you just have to tell yourself that you're okay, 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.720 and and that you have to just you know, like 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.160 yourself and praise yourself in a way that is always 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:19.640 positive and sometimes you know, I think self seem is 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:21.480 more helpful if we look at it in terms of 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:27.480 the way that we feel about ourselves can be information, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:31.239 So it can be you know, whatever we're feeling towards ourselves, 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:33.840 whether it's positive or negative. Something that we do in 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:38.960 therapy is always turned towards feelings with curiosity. So rather 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.360 than just trying to change it, we look at what 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.880 is and then we get to work on understanding why 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.520 it is that way and how that can help us 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.880 or whether it's hindering us. So, I mean, it's it's 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:57.800 not UM, it's not unhealthy or disordered. If you reach 0:08:57.800 --> 0:08:59.800 a period of your life where you're not okay with 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.720 the person that you are or the way that you're behaving. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.640 You know, to have constant positive self esteem would suggest 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:11.760 that you've never made mistakes. Well, you've never um done 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.400 less than you're capable of. And so I think it's 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:18.440 okay to say, do you know what I'm not I'm 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.920 not being at my best here, or I'm not doing 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.800 my best for myself or for my family, or for 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.520 my career or for whatever that thing is. It's okay 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.800 to feel that dissatisfaction and then look at it with 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.640 curiosity and learn from it and move on and progress. 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.680 If we're intolerant of the dissatisfaction with ourselves and we 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.920 try to sort of convince ourselves that we are we're 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.320 okay as we are, then then sometimes that can hinder 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.000 our ability to progress and move forward. I think we 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.319 have to make it okay to look at um those 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.840 feelings that we're not quite satisfied with how things are 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.080 at the moment um. So yeah, that's really sort of 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:58.920 what that was about. And and there's a part that says, 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.600 you know, someone might tell you who's trying to help 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:07.840 you increase your self esteem, that you know, just make 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:09.960 a list, make a list of what you like about yourself, 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:13.480 and you know that's that's going to help pave the 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.880 road to your belief that you can become a success 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.280 in the world. And you say that, well, okay, but 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:21.360 we have to go even further back than that. That 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.000 societally right, we have a problem with the concept of 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.440 success and I you know, we think it means wealth 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:29.760 and winning and standing out. And I have to assume 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:35.440 that someone with anxiety the you know, I had someone 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.360 say to me once, stop comparing yourself to people way 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.480 above you. First of all, don't compare yourself to anyone, 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.560 but stop looking at people way above you, and look 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.280 at people underneath you, not to to um feel better 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.000 than them or say they're doing something bad, but just 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:51.960 to look how far you've come. Well, how many people 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.080 would want to be in your situation in life, whatever 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.679 that situation is, Like, what is our definition of success? 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.839 I don't think that's a question. I was babbling, But 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.520 if there's anything you want to step go into that. Yeah. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.480 And the comparison thing is is tricky, isn't it, Because 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.240 we are we are built to do that to a degree. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.560 You know, we're social beings, and so if we are 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.600 brains sort of naturally, you know, look outside of us 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.960 and compare uslves are we living up to the expectations 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.240 of this community or this group that I'm living in, Um, 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.400 where do I sit in the hierarchy? And you know, um, 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.920 those kind of things. They're all really useful things for 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.280 your brain to pick up on, and in terms of 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.960 being a social being living in a group. But in 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.120 you know, today's society where we have you know how 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.320 many billion people at our disposal who have put their 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.760 best foot forward on social media or something else. Um, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.760 the things that we would never exposed to before. I mean, 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:53.079 you know, the comparison thing, it's really adaptive for you know, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.640 when we used to live in smaller groups and communities, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.200 it was a survival thing. It helped us to work 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.320 out whether we were safe in that community or we 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.600 were about to be you know, rejected from it, which 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.360 was a real survival issue. And so you know, we 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:13.320 can't eliminate comparison. It's going to naturally happen. And what 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.440 I often work with people in therapy on is is 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.200 stepping back from that and noticing that natural urge to 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:23.880 do that. So noticing, oh, look, I am comparing myself, 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.760 what kind of people am I comparing myself today to today? 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.040 So you know, am I comparing up? Where am I 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.400 comparing down? What's the impact of that on me? And 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:35.959 why do I feel the need to do that today? 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.360 What what's going on there? And always again coming back 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:42.120 to it with curiosity. So rather than setting yourself the 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:45.240 standard of I must not compare myself to anyone, and 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.000 or I must only compare um to people who are 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.079 worse off than me so that I feel better, or 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.600 you know, those sorts of things I think, you know, 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.720 those sorts of standards can sometimes set us up to 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.679 feel like we're failing all over again, um and and 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.960 it just sort of leads to this internal argument where 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.480 we're trying to think certain things and not others, and 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.319 and actually thoughts just arrive, so that the most helpful approach, 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.679 I think is to step back, notice which thoughts arrived, 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.880 notice whether they help you or hinder you, and then 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.480 practice that ability to to let them move on or 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:24.559 to hold onto ones that are helping you. So, getting 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.520 back to what you said about curiosity, Well, before I 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.280 say that, I'll just make a quick comment that when 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:34.120 we're talking about comparing up, comparing down and you're writing 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.720 this book based on you know something, you're your patients said, 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.520 I get so many emails on this show, and there's 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:46.240 always this time and age obsession, and everyone is saying 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.440 the same thing no matter what age they are, it's 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.839 too late. You know, someone twenty things it's too late. 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.600 So when sixty thinks it's too late, it's too late 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:58.720 to change. And it's like we really just make things 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:03.040 up to live by, you know, like there is no 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.400 concept of time in terms of getting better or getting 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.360 some thoughts. There's no it's too late or you can't 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.480 do it because your generation has a little harder with 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.040 you know, the economy or something. It's just you can't 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.520 either have to do it or not. But yeah, and 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.560 the more we kind of buy into those narratives, the 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.120 more powerful they are, whether they're helpful or not. And 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:25.960 I guess if you I mean, I love to think 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:31.640 of sort of psychology in terms of um professional athletes. 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:33.640 So we all we all want to function well in 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.320 our lives and thrive and be at our best in 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.880 a similar way that athletes do. But athletes apply that 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:44.240 to one specific performance, one specific action. And you know, 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.800 if if you take I don't know. We've just had 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.560 Wimbledon in England. So you know, let's say a tennis 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.320 player who is on their way up through the ranks 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.160 and they're doing well, but they have a way to go. 0:14:57.360 --> 0:14:59.640 If that person starts to you know, let's say that 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.920 they take on a coach, if that person started to 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:08.320 tell that athlete that it's probably too late. Um. You know, 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.280 it's harder these day to progress in tennis. And you know, 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:17.200 maybe you're ranked it you're you know, one hundred, um, 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.880 but you know, let's compare you to the number one, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.000 number two seed. Actually you're really far behind that. That 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.400 kind of approach a decent a decent coach would never 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.640 ever do, right that because that's going to be unhelpful. 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.120 That's going to make that person feel less energized, um, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:40.080 less motivated to work on their craft. They're more much 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.200 more likely to give up. So you have to think about, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.680 you know, what results you want in terms of how 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.440 you want to feel, how you want to be living, 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.080 how you want to be moving towards things in your life. 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.120 None of us can guarantee how much time we've got. 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.480 Is just one of those aspects of life that there 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.960 is uncertainty there, but we have to live as if 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.520 there is a future the same time. So, you know, 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.800 if if you want to be applying yourself to life 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.600 in a way that enables you to thrive and do 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.400 something of purpose and meaning, then we have to start 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.080 treating ourselves in the way that a coach would, you know, 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.960 and thinking about what kind of results do I want? Well, 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:21.840 you know, actually the way that I speak to myself 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.520 and the narrative that I'd bring up for myself is 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.400 is going to have a powerful impact too, whether I 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.440 even feel like I can apply myself let alone, whether 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.800 I go ahead and do it so, you know, I think, 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.320 and that's what happens, you know, in in therapy again, 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.960 when when people come along, no matter what their goal 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:42.480 is or the thing that they're trying to achieve, if 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.240 if those narratives come along, what we always do is 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.440 we kind of say, wow, that's interesting. Did you notice that? 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.000 What's what's that narrative? What's the impact of that? How 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.520 does that leave you feeling? You know, is it always 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.320 this way? Do you ever speak yourself in a different way? 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.440 So we just turned towards it with curiosity. But when 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.600 you do that, you get this kind of bird's eye 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:05.760 view of things. So rather than being in it and 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:09.200 accepting that narrative for fact, we kind of step back 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.879 from it and we look at, wow, that's one approach. 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.359 How how impactful is that? How effective is that is 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:18.520 that getting you where you want to go? And if 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:20.600 the answers no, then we can start to look at 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.399 more effective ways at you know, working with yourself and 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.840 relating to yourself that that can help you. And this 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.600 brings me back to my original question that I've been 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:34.600 not asking about the curiosity thing. So I'm going to 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.440 jump into the mind of a listener who hasn't done 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.600 any kind of cognitive behavior therapy work and they have 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.840 anxiety that maybe have depression, but they you know, then 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.480 that's affecting their self esteem. So when you say, you know, don't, 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:49.800 for the lack of a better term, like, don't beat 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.119 yourself up, but look at these thoughts of curiosity, I 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.639 assume that that might be hard for someone to do 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.520 unless they're being led in a session, because you know, 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.520 even looking at something with curiosity to be kind of 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.840 left your own devices, it might still be done in 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.840 this maladaptive way. So giving a free tip for everyone listening. 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.600 I liked how you just gave a concrete example there 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.560 of saying, oh, you know, that's interesting, look at that. 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:19.240 And if someone is let's say, sitting there worrying I 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.879 can't get help because of this or that, or you know, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:23.919 you know I should be further along in life or 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:28.760 I whatever that is, for them to stop and look 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.520 at that with curiosity, what's a question they can ask 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:38.040 themselves to begin doing that in a way that is 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.760 helpful and not more beating themselves up. Yeah, I think 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:42.920 I think you're right. It's really key. It's one thing 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.280 to be able to um go into something and and 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.480 talk about it. It's another thing to do that in 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.800 a way that's productive rather than um just stressful or retroubishizing. 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.840 And so I would say, you know, it can that 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:57.800 stuff can be with a therapist. And I think if 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:02.000 there's really complex, different stuff to to talk about, then 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.719 it's always recommended. But actually, you know, we've been helping 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.760 each other through difficult things for you know, the the 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:14.399 entirety of of our ability to use language. So we 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.439 do that through connecting with other people in in a 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.119 good way, you know, finding somebody that you trust that 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.480 you can talk to and and starting to use words 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:26.400 between you and um. And if you don't have someone 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:27.919 in your life that you can talk to all that 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:29.560 you you know, things that you don't want to share 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.240 with another person, you can write them down. You can um, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.639 you can record them in somewhere, whether that's you know, 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.639 writing down pen and paper or into your phone or 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.000 computer or whatever, or even voice notes to yourself, one 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:43.920 way of kind of getting it out of your head 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.760 and in front of you so that you can start 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.239 to see it for what it is. Because actually, what 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.399 we don't want to do is add perfectionism to the 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:54.960 whole process and say, oh gosh, now I'm being self 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.720 critical again. I'm such a being self critical And you know, 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.480 you can kind of get into this internal argument for 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:02.560 for having had the thoughts in the first place. It 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:04.720 is really hard to see the wood for the trees 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.359 when you're in it and you're feeling strong emotions and 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.240 all the thoughts are there. We learn first through hindsight, 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.880 so you know, if you start to develop UM, yeah, 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.360 it's just so so helpful to do something like journaling. 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.760 You know, once a day, however many minutes works for you, 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.200 whether it's fifteen minutes, half an hour and hour whatever. 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:27.199 That is just spending time looking over, Okay, what was 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.240 if let's say you're trying to be less self critical, 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:31.919 whether any moments today when I was self critical? What 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.719 were those things? What came before that, what led up 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.439 to that um and and how did it then make 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.760 me feel afterwards? And just just by doing things like 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.560 that where you start to look at it with a 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:47.480 bit of a bird's eye view, then you build up 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.639 that It's almost like a sort of mental muscle, so 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.639 the ability to see that for what it is. And 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.320 that's easier to do in hindsight because the emotion has 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.359 passed by the time you sit down with pen and paper. 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:00.840 But over time you do that and off and you 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:02.560 start to build up the ability to see it for 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.000 what it is in the moment. And when we start 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.520 to do that, then we open up the opportunity to 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.920 choose something different. But it has to start with, okay, 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.359 so what happened today, what happened this week? What you know? 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.640 And working through it when we've passed all the sort 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.320 of high emotion so that we can do that clearly. 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:23.760 We build up the practice by doing it that way, 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:27.119 and then we build up our ability to do it 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:29.760 more in the moment over time. So I'd say, you know, 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.840 don't don't feel like you have to suddenly just be 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:37.879 able to do all this stuff. It's difficult. We'll be 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:47.160 right back. You have a chapter in your book being Enough. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.359 And this is an expression that when my therapist used 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.040 to say it, I would go crazy because I would think, 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:56.639 I what does that mean? It sounds you say that 0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:02.919 some people I think that self acceptance is going to 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.680 cause laziness and complacency, And so what what does that mean? 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:11.280 When when a therapist tells us that we have to 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:16.440 accept ourselves and know that we're enough? I think, UM, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:22.720 For me, it all comes down to um. Not necessarily 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.879 sort of being enough for everyone else or society. But 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.399 it's a it's a having a sense of worthiness based 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:32.160 on the fact that you're a human being. So it's 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:36.600