WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 43: Tom Answers Listener Questions 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.320 And when I find my ball. 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.960 In a brid egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:11.840 Friday Frida Egg, fridagg bride egg. 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:13.640 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump. 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.360 Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.040 I am your host, Andy Johnson, and I am excited 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.120 for the second part of our latest talk with Tom Doak. 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.040 So this will be another episode in the Yoke with 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:55.440 Doak series. Uh, this one is really heavy on listener 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.600 Q and A. So we took a bunch of questions 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:04.200 in Club TFE and fired through them. So Tom Big 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.399 thanks to Tom for chatting with us here at high point. 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:09.720 This is the second part of our conversation. It was 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:12.640 a day later and for him to make a little 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:16.200 bit time for this episode. Let's take a quick second 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.560 to talk about the USGA. This week, we can't get 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:22.559 enough of watching the one hundred and twenty fourth US 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.040 Amateur and it's a good reminder of the USGA's impact 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:30.360 on golf extends far beyond just the US Open. Every year, 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.839 the organization supports fifteen championships, providing a stage for thousands 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.080 of golfers to compete at the highest level. But it's 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:41.760 not just competitive golfers that benefit. The USGA supports programs 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.040 and initiatives that affect every aspect of the game, including 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.360 junior golf, environmental sustainability, and preserving the history of the game. 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.320 When you become a USGA member, you play an important 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.240 role in supporting the game that you love. You also 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.040 receive great benefits like the US Open or the US 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.200 Women's Open, members hat, a personalized member bag tag, a 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:06.040 subscription to the USGA's Golf Journal, and much more. Give 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.280 back to golf and get back great benefits by visiting 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:13.279 USGA dot org slash Frida Egg and becoming a USGA 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:18.080 member today. That's USGA dot org slash Frida Egg. All right, 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:26.000 let's get to the yoke with dope. All right, let's 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.280 start this, uh listener, Q and A. Here this is 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:34.040 from William J. What GCA book do you find yourself 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:36.919 returning to again and again over your career? 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:43.960 Oh heck, you know, honestly, I don't that much. But 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.200 you know, I mean, I used to joke with people 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.000 that I had the world Alice of golf, like memorized 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.560 by the time I was fourteen or fifteen, and that 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:54.520 was almost literally true. I mean, you know, if I 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.440 go back and look at the books now, probably the 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.520 one I look at the most is mcken's his book 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.160 and and what I'm you know, but I remember a 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.280 passage and I'm trying to find it, and it's not 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.000 very well organized, and sometimes I have a lot it 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.000 takes me a long time to find the little snippet 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.360 that I'm actually looking for. But so that was his 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.640 original golf architecture book. But The Spirit of Saint Andrews, 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.600 the later book, has the entire text of the original 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.080 book in it. It was basically just written in the 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.240 note in the margins of the original book. So so 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.440 that's probably the one I look at the most. I 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.560 do like to go back and read Simpson's book every 0:03:35.560 --> 0:03:39.880 once in a while. Partly the diagrams are cool. Partly, 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.960 you know, he's probably the father of minimalism. 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.680 If anybody was. But he was such a good writer. 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.480 It's just there's there's some things in there that are 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.680 just funny, and then there are some things that are 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.800 just very simple. But he's like you know, he basically 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.960 tells you you're an idiot if you are doing it differently. 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.400 I played my first Simpson golf course a couple months ago. 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.800 I played Baltray, County low yep. I was so good. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.200 I love that golf course. I feel like nobody talks 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.240 about it, talks about that course enough in terms of 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:16.000 Irish golf. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:17.960 It's true, it's you know, it's not. I mean, the 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.960 Irish courses are. It's such tough competition. Those those top 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:25.320 five golf courses are all so dramatic and so much 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:29.640 movement that Baltray that's pretty flat can't compete with that. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:31.560 If it was in Scotland, people would be. 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.480 Like, Wow, that's a really good golf course. 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.360 We're at high Point. Here's a question about high points, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.320 So this is this is a good one just because 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:44.520 we're here and you just you're fresh off playing eighteen 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.200 holes of the preview play and it's from Andrew c 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.520 Are you building the new holes at high Point as 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:55.080 if you were late twenties Tom or rather with your 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.040 current style and principles at the forefront. Is this complicated 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.760 by the fact that you or restoring your own holes 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:04.520 and building new holes at the same time, I. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.640 Might lose my place in a multi part question, so 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.520 you may have to remind me about this later on. 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:14.240 I thought about that some. You know, it helped that 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:18.919 the routing for the nine new holes that haven't opened 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.120 yet was a routing I did for a third nine 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.920 in nineteen eighty eight, so that was the old time 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.400 doing that routing. And when when we started talking about 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.680 doing this, and we weren't going to tear up the 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.360 hops farm, so we were going to have to go 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.440 over there for the rest of the golf course, you know, 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.839 I thought, oh, maybe that routing wasn't that great, and 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:41.839 I'll try to do another version of it. And I 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.280 tried a couple different things, but I didn't like them 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.760 as much, and I said, Okay, I'm going to keep 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.560 the routing that I did when I was young, and 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.520 that'll kind of keep me on the right track, you 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.560 know that. Really the one thing, the only thing that's 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.919 different is I've got a lot more talent. It helped 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:00.760 to help me build it this time than I had 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.359 the last time. I say it a lot, I really 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:08.039 mean it. My ideas are not that much different than 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.360 they were when I was twenty five thirty years old. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.840 The execution is a lot better, and I have a 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.000 lot more talented people helping. I have Brian Slonik to 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.800 build bunkers here the first time. I had never even 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.080 tried to build a bunker that had sand going up 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.839 the face, So we tried a bunch of different things 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.479 in it. The original golf course, it was kind of 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:29.400 cool because it was eclectic and different, but the bunkers 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:34.560 weren't really sophisticated. They weren't really good. They're better now. 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:40.279 That's good. So in a recent Golf Club Atlas post, 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:44.040 you mentioned Pacific Dunes was a response to Bandon Dunes. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:48.680 What specifically were you responding to on Bandon and how 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.120 did this play out in the design of Pacific Dunes, 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.040 And that's from jaredam So. 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.960 I mean, I just thought at the beginning, well, you know, 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:00.200 you don't want the two golf courses to be the same. 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:02.880 Let's just see how many ways we can make it 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.680 different and still be good. And the first and the 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.320 first two most obvious ones were they've made banded dudes 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:13.320 like seventy two hundred yards from the back teeth, and 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.560 I was like, it's a really windy place. I don't 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.600 think it needs to be that long. And the routings 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:21.680 that I was doing were coming up kind of short, 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.200 sixty six sixty seven hundred yards, and I just said 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:29.960 to Mike, look, you don't need you know, nobody really 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.520 wants to play seventy two hundred yards in the wind. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:34.840 And on top of that, you've already got a golf 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.360 course that is that. I don't think we need to 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.440 do that again. You know, unless you're gonna have the 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.800 US Open here, there's absolutely no reason. Even if you 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.040 have the US Amateur, you're gonna play it on banded dunes, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.560 which they wound up doing. You don't need that twice. 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.200 This is a resort course. It's for people like you 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:51.520 and me. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:53.240 It was. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.480 Not the easiest sell because you had Mike Davis whispering 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.840 in his other ear at the same time, but I 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:01.800 really stuck to that, and I was like, if you 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.760 find out in fifteen years you need back, tease, I'll 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.200 come back. But I really don't think you need them. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:13.000 And the perspective has changed so much. When when that 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.440 golf course opened, people speculated about whether it was too easy, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:18.520 and now they all think it's the hardest golf course 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.160 at the resort. It's funny how times change and how 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:27.920 people's perception changes on what heart is really about. So 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.840 on top of that, the other thing, you know, Mike 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.400 David wanted to build real sod wall pot bunkers and 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.480 Mike Kaiser would not let him, so he did, but 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.880 he did small bunkers with half steep faces. 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.760 And those have changed completely. I saw some old photos abandoned. 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.160 I was shocked at how different the bunkers. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:50.840 Are, and I haven't I have not been out on 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:54.679 Banded Dunes in probably fifteen years. I've only played Pacific 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.520 a couple of times in the last ten years, so 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.000 I don't even know exactly what they look like now. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.479 But the original bunkers were kind of like Ballybunion. Ballybunion 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:07.400 doesn't have many bunkers. They're small. We're kind of like 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:10.320 being inside a little cone. It's not easy to get out, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.760 but it's not you know, they're not really severe. Mike 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:19.400 just was abbed adamant that people hated leaving it in 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.920 a bunker, and he didn't want guests to have that experience, 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.439 so he wanted it where you could get out anyway 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.800 instead of hitting the sidewall. You know, Pacific Dunes had 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:33.760 some land that had just natural blowouts. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.160 In the dunes, like the eighteenth hole. There were just big. 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:42.120 Sand craters and several places around the golf course. So 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.959 when we started building it, we actually, when we started 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.000 building the golf course, Mike wasn't sure he wanted to 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.680 go ahead with all eighteen holes. We talked about building 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.120 four or five holes as like a test case and 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.240 building bunkers like that to see how they would hold up. 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:02.240 And then the first three holes we built were ten, eleven, 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.720 and five, the three part threes that are right together there. 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.240 We had those done in like two weeks, and Mike 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.319 was like, how many more holes could you build? And 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:18.600 the superintendent at the time, Troy Russell, said, we could 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.880 tap into the irrigation from Bandon Dunes and like grow 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.200 in like probably eight or nine holes while we're building 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.680 the irrigation pond for this, and we were just off 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:34.600 and running. But I got it. I digressed a little bit, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.719 you know. The bunker style. We tried to make as 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.640 different as possible, these blowout bunkers, hoping that they would 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.520 hold up in the wind that was out there. We 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:50.120 even like put irrigation heads just to water the sand 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.240 in the bunker to try to keep it straight. It's 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:57.560 still a big problem. The biggest maintenance item there is 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.079 at Bandon next at Pacific, next to Mo in the 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.760 golf course, he is putting sand back in the bunkers. 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:07.200 It's a tremendous amount of work, but everybody loves them 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.800 and it's not like, you know, the net profit on 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:16.040 that has been positive. And the other one was kind 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.480 of keeping the greens half small. The greens on Bandon 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.200 Dunes were really big. You know, Mike really, I think 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.240 wanted people to be able to land the ball on 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.240 the green and keep it on the green. And the 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.400 way to do that was build a green forty forty 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.760 five pieces deep. And they got a lot of that 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.199 on that golf course. And I thought, I knew Mike 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.200 wouldn't want me to have a lot of contre in 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.800 the green, So I thought, if I keep the greens 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.880 half small, then I can have contour around the edge. 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:43.880 And you know, you're putting from off the edge of 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.640 the green a lot anyway. But you know, putting up 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.839 and over a contra on the edge did not bother 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:50.720 Mike the same way it did if you were putting 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.600 up over a contre inside the green. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:58.600 What you you mentioned that the perception of what's hard changed. 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.880 You know, everybody thought it was too might be too easy. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.760 Now people think it's too hard. What's changed do you 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:09.480 think in the perception of what's hard? 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.679 Partly people have stopped stopped playing from too far back. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.920 I mean those seventy two you know, the problem was 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.200 so band in Dunes when it opened had six sets 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.600 of tees. They pretty quickly went to four sets of 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.640 tea markers, and none of them were ever on those 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:28.920 back teas anymore. So nobody's playing the golf course. It's 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.600 seventy two hundred yards, you know the most if you 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.360 were playing the back team markers, you're probably playing sixty 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:38.440 eight sixty nine hundred yards. But even that people shy away. 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:40.720 If there's four sets of teas and not three, people 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:42.720 shy away from that and they come to the second 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.600 markers and those were more like sixty four hundred yards, 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:51.120 So you know, people have stopped letting their buddy drag them. 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.200 Too far back is a big difference. And you know, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.559 it's more fun to play golf when you've got a 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.400 seven iron in your hands instead of a Forewood to 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.280 hit approach shots on par fours. 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:11.280 Yeah, I selfishly would love to see a USM match 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.440 play held at Pacific Dunes. I know they probably won't 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.559 ever do it because they love that finishing scene with 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.440 the lodge and everything behind it. But to me, there's 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.240 so many great match play holes out there in terms 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.880 of like I mean, I would I would love to 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.800 just you know, six, you just go down the list six, 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.560 sixteen with the way these kids hit the ball, like 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:37.600 sixteen to me would be fascinating to. 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.400 S exactly who. I absolutely believe, I don't care what 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.720 the score is. Pacific Dunes at match play is a 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.920 great golf course for good players. And they did talk 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:54.840 Michael Kaiser called me two years before the US Amateur. 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.760 They were talking about using a composite course that I 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.520 can't even remember all of it, but I do remember 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.720 like they were going to wind up with the thirteenth 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.920 hole at Pacific Dunes is the eighteenth hole, wow, and 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.400 finish away from the clubhouse to have that background because 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.000 they'd had the Curtis Cup there and all the TV 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.400 guys were like, this is freaking awesome, you know, this 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.120 is so beautiful out here, and it's not even the 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:20.920 end of the golf course. It barely made TV. 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.400 Well, they had the road that goes right back there 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:28.080 behind that green, right, so they seriously considered that, and 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.800 I kind of torpedoed it. I was like, that's like saying, 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.240 neither one of the golf courses is good enough to 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.640 host the US Amateur, And they're both good enough to 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.080 host the US Amateur. But I said at the beginning, 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.920 you know, banded Dudes is seventy two hundred yards long, 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.320 that's where you'll host the US Amateur. I don't have 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:51.320 any problem with that. Yeah, yeah, it'd be cool to 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.760 change it up. Like one of the things about you know, 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.680 the great thing about Bandon is that they like the debate. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.760 Everybody loves the debate of what's what's your favorite course? 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.080 What would be neat with all the Usam's, all the 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.240 USGA events that they're hosting rotated around, you know, have 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.080 have it at all the courses since that, and they 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:10.600 kind of do. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.320 You know, it's a it's a bit of a negotiation 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:17.080 with the USGA over which course is best for which event. 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:22.600 But there they are reasonably open minded and and and 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.960 everybody abandoned is kind of like, well out of the box. Yeah, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:27.560 we don't have to do that. We could use old 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.760 McDonald for this for this event instead. You know, there's 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:33.600 a lot you can do with set up there. Yeah, 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.040 Pacific Dunes is a little short for toure pros. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.080 I don't I don't know. I want to be so 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.720 I called the college event there right before COVID hit. 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:42.840 It was like the last thing I did before COVID 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.920 was I was calling this COVID uh college event and 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:50.520 it was like all big, big schools from the West coast. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.880 And I think the winner was after three days, no win. 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:56.680 Do you know what the winning score? Hey, have any 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.840 clue what the winning score was? I want to say 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.200 it was like between six to ten under and it 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:02.840 was it was. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:08.200 I think that's I mean, if the wind blows, it's 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.840 a hard golf course, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.880 how good the players are. They will have to hit 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:13.680 golf shots. 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.080 That's it. Yeah, I don't know. I think I always 0:16:17.080 --> 0:16:20.320 have thought of all the courses there, that's the one 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.680 where I have to hit the most high quality golf shots, 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.720 especially like you get on like the eleventh te box 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.600 and it's like you don't get a break till maybe 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.600 the fifteenth t or fourteenth fifteenth t really is like 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:35.280 when you feel like you can take your foot off 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:39.800 the gas. All right, on to the next question here, 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:46.440 all right, I thought this was interesting. Mark d asked 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.800 if Tom could redo one routing he designed, which one 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:52.080 would it be and why? 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.040 I don't have any answer for that at all. I 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:57.800 really don't. 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.480 Oh I do, And it's people don't know the golf course, 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.439 so the quail. No, it's Riverfront Virginia. I did this 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.720 course in in Suffolk, Virginia. Like it's my sixth or 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:17.720 seventh golf course that I did, and it's it's part 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.760 of a housing development. It's a really affordable public golf course. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.080 You could play it for about thirty bucks. There's still 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.960 maintaining it. There's about three or four holes where the 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.120 houses are way too close, but the rest of it's 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:33.800 pretty good. You know when we did it, it's it's 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.960 stretched out over. I mean it's a it's a huge development, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.159 a huge piece of property with with a bunch of 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.560 inlet tidle marshes come in in off the off the 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.760 big river there, and there's some really dramatic holes along 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.399 the edge of the marshes. And the developer was a 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.200 guy that i'd met when when I was in college 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.000 traveling around seeing things, and you know, he was a 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.640 really good golfer. So he let me put a lot 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:02.080 more holes on the land than a lot of developers 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:08.040 would have. But the land was kind of three peninsulas, 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.600 and I tried to stretch the course out over all 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:20.160 three peninsulas, and that meant you wound up with houses 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.879 like right next to some of the holes. You know, 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.960 in hindsight, I wish I just hadn't stretched it out 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.760 so far and kept like nine of the halls where 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.040 it was just a core golf course, and then gone 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.520 out and gone off along the marshes. More so then 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.720 instead of exposing it to the real estate question. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.119 Because then the houses would have all gone on that peninsula, 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.160 right and they and you wouldn't. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.800 Have had well, there still would have been some houses 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.400 around the others, but not as much as there is now. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.400 Interesting. That's that's a good one. That's a really good one. 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:52.040 It's like because everybody always tried it. It was you know, 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.920 the most dramatic probably property, and you wanted to get there. 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.520 But when you look back on it. It's like that's 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:07.920 a good an her all right. I think you heard 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.320 probably just the answer that Tom had about the architecture 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.119 book that he keeps coming back to. That's the McKenzie 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:20.240 Golf Architecture Book. We've got great news for you. Our friend, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.280 friend of the program. He's been on a couple of times, 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.199 Josh Pettitt. He's the founder of the McKenzie Institute. He 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.280 has been putting together some great books on Alistair McKenzie. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.520 A couple of years ago he produced The McKenzie Reader, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.760 which was a compilation of a bunch of writing that 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.520 Alison McKenzie had you hadn't seen, you know a lot 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.880 of people hadn't seen that he had found. It's a great, 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.520 beautiful book. Now he's reproduced Alister McKenzie Golf Architecture Book. 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.119 Super unique book. The you know, most reprints are are 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.040 you can get cheap reprint, but they you know, they 0:19:58.040 --> 0:19:59.960 don't have like the level of detail that you'd want 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.880 from like kind of a collector book. I sense this 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:09.200 is a collector's book. He retyped, He basically reset the typeface, 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.639 retyped the entire book. It's on really high quality paper, 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.239 really well bound together book. It is a book that 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:19.320 when you are reading it, you're like, this is a 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:24.000 nice book. The illustrations are are awesome. So you can 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.879 get one of the thousand copies that Josh is producing 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:33.359 of this book, this reprint. You go to Mackenzie dot Golf. 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.679 That's Mackenzie dot Golf, and if you use the promo 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.040 code fried Egg you'll get ten percent off. So these 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.160 these are going to be really beautiful books. And as 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.560 Tom said in this episode, this is the one he 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.560 keeps coming back to over the years. This is a 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.159 iconic golf architecture book. So Mackenzie dot Golf use the 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.680 promo code Frida Egg for ten percent off this beautiful 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.400 book that Josh is putting together. All right, let's get 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:13.800 back to Tom. Here's one from Gray. He asked, what 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.440 are the major differences between working with an experienced golf 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:19.800 developer versus the first time developer. 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.320 I've just gone through this in the last couple of years. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.479 You know, on the one hand that I've been working 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:31.600 with Michael Kaiser and with Pinehurst and people that have 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.920 been around the golf business their whole lives basically, and 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.040 no concern about budgets at all. They don't even ask 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.120 me any questions at all for two reasons. One they've 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:43.879 got a pretty good idea, you know, it's going to 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.879 be in this range. And two they know me, and 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.960 it's like he's not going to like go go off 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:53.520 on a tangent and decide to spend another five million dollars. 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.280 He's not that kind of guy. So we're not worried 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.520 about the budget for the golf course. But then with 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.760 a new with a new client, they worry about it. 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.359 And it was very difficult to deal with because, you know, 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.600 I'd had so many experienced clients the last few years, 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.520 and the price has changed so much. It's like I 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:15.200 didn't even know what the price of eggs was. So 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:21.040 Rod Trump here another of my clients. You know, they 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.879 were really concerned about the bottom line number, and I 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.480 gave them a bit too low of an estimate right 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.040 off the bat, because because the you know, the price 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:32.960 of building a golf course is almost doubled in the 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.120 last five years, just trying to do the same thing, 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.520 not even putting in more bells and whistles. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:42.760 That's it's crazy, like irrigation costs everything is, it's mostly irrigation. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.200 You know, irrigation was almost half the budget of high 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.919 Point the first time around, and it was again this 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:53.280