WEBVTT - TechStuff Remembers Aaron Swartz 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.720 Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from hof 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:14.400 dot com. Hey there, everyone, and welcome to tex Stuff. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.400 My name is Jonathan Strickland. I am the host ordinaire. 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.200 My name is Lauren foc Obama and I does that 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:26.320 make me the host extraordinary at this time? Extra extra extraordinary? Yeah. Well, 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:29.320 today we we have a topic that's both happy and sad. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:34.040 It's sad in that the world lost UH an activist 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:39.519 and and legitimately a genius in January fellow by the 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.960 name of Aaron Schwartz. And you may have heard this name, 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.240 and you you may even be fairly aware of who 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:47.920 he was and what he did. He's been in the 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:50.080 news a whole bunch, and you've probably been hearing about 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.520 him for years because he's done some really breakthrough work 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:58.440 in technology. Yeah yeah, and both from a actual technological 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.360 standpoint and from political standpoint, as it turns out, So 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:06.319 we wanted to really talk about who he was, what 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.120 sort of impact he's had on technology, both from a 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:14.680 policy side and from actual zeros in ones. Yeah, and 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.840 to kind of talk about why his his life and 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.920 death matter in the world of tech. And to do this, 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:23.840 we we wanted to kind of take an overview of 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.120 his life. So first, before I really dive in, I 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.160 have to give major props to The Verge, which is 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.160 if you guys have never gone to The Verge, it's 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.240 a fantastic It's one of my favorite sites out there 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:38.600 right now. It's really really well done. And a fellow 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:43.200 by the name of Tim Carmody wrote an exhaustive article 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:48.240 about Schwartz's life and was very thorough and very respectful, 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:51.320 and it was a really gorgeous piece of journalism, honestly, 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:52.920 and it was it was a very personal piece of 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:56.400 journalism that it led a few lines into editorial, but 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:58.640 it was and gave you a gave you insight to 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.600 what it's like being a journal to have to cover 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:06.120 a story that has personal implications, because he had had 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.919 met Sworts at least once, and so you know, it's 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.359 a it's kind of an inside look to what it's 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.480 like being a journalist and covering a story like this. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.440 And also he's very good at breaking down the myths 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.440 because they you know, Aaron Swarts was sort of a 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.720 legendary mythical figure in many ways, the kind of person 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.880 who's whose contributions were huge and they got bigger depending 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.440 upon who was telling the story and how how many 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:35.440 times they told it. Sure the same way to say 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:39.560 Steve Jobs. That's a good, good example, although we should 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:43.520 also had Swarts was was tragically very young when he 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:47.760 when he committed suicide, only twenty six years old. Yeah. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.120 So so going back to his childhood, he was born 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.720 in Chicago. In nineteen eighty six, his father, Robert Swartz, 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.359 founded a software company which was called Mark Williams, which 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:04.640 actually name after Aaron's grandfather and uh and Mark Williams. 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.600 The company was all about creating a clone of the 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:14.000 Unix operating system and also ce compilers, C language compilers 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:18.320 and debuggers for IBM PCs. And that's that's a term 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:22.200 that brings me back because I remember when when computers 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:27.200 were either called Apple or IBM compatible or you know, 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.639 eventually kind of specificity doesn't really exist anymore. Yeah, No, 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.560 IBM compatible became a term, like I was referring to 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.120 PCs as IBM compatible as long after that was appropriate 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.400 because sometimes things stick with you. But anyway, Robert Swartz 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.320 would eventually become an intellectual property consultant for M I T. S. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:49.520 Media Lab, and intellectual property was something that Aaron became 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:53.680 very interested in and very passionate about UH and the 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:59.400 idea of is information property doesn't belong to one person 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:01.520 or one to ty in the case of say a 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.960 corporation or organization, or does it belong to the world. 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:07.240 Should it belong to the world. And this is a 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.800 philosophical debate that a lot of people have had, and 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:16.360 I think most people fall somewhere in the spectrum of gray. Sure, well, 0:04:16.400 --> 0:04:19.240 you know it's we We all want to especially those 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.000 of us who work in the media, want to be 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.680 paid for our ideas because that's the only thing that 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:27.080 we produce. But at the same time, yeah, you know, 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.919 if someone wants to learn something, I'm certainly not going 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.360 to say, like, no, no, give me money first. If 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.159 you know, if, for example, if they need that money 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.479 to eat, I would rather them know things and eat. Yes. Yes, 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.800 And so Aaron kind of we'll get into it. But 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:45.520 Aaron kind of developed an idealistic philosophy that was very 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:49.599 much in the realm of information wants to be free, 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.480 that sort of idea that that that data needs to 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.440 be out there for people to make use of it 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.400 and to make lives better. Be called it a moral 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.280 imperative yeah, and um, yes, so that that kind of 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.200 gives you a quick philosophical overview, but we don't want 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:10.480 to jump ahead too far. Tim's work in the Verge. 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.360 There was one little piece of information that I thought 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.479 was adorable, which is that when Aaron was eight years old. 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:21.280 Keep in mind out this is early days. Okay, so 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.000 six plus eight that means in in, in and and wait. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:34.400 I got nineteen nineteen ninety four. Liberal arts education has 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.520 paid off people. When the World Wide Web was really 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:42.039 just two years old. Um, he was actually going on usenet, 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.159 which is not the same thing as world Wide Web, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.480 so don't write me. But he was going on usenet, 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:51.000 which was a news group database essentially kind of like 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.640 a network database where you could go and have discussions 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:59.040 about different topics. And apparently when exactly when he was eight, 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.720 he went on to Eustat and his first post was 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.200 to a news group dedicated to Beakman's World, which is 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.839 kind of awesome. That's wonderful. Yeah. Uh. He was also 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.400 a big fan of the Star Wars movies, which I 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:16.159 think is phenomenal because he was born three years after 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.160 the last one came out, Return of the Jedi. As 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.280 we have discussed before year old. Sorry, Yeah, well I 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.400 saw Return of the Jedi in the theater when it 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.040 was released, and man, I sure hope that one day 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.520 Lucas comes out with movies that really explain how Anakin 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.000 became Darth Vader. Yeah, wouldn't that be? That would be 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.880 so great, that would be fantastic. I really wish that 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.760 those movies existed, just like I hope one day they 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.960 make a sequel to Highlander, the Matrix or the Matrix. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.080 These are, yeah, so many movies that I wish there 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:51.359 were sequels to that. I'm not actively denying exist. Um, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.320 it's exhausting being me, y'all really, But anyway. He was 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.599 also fans of other things like I went visited his 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:03.920 blog in preparation of this podcast and and he had 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:10.040 a way of taking pop culture and applying various thought 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:15.600 experiments to it that was engaging and enlightening and funny. 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.840 He has a great one in the final one Sadly 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.960 about the Dark Night, and the most recent, the last 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:25.920 and the Christopher Nolan series. Actually it was the second 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:27.760 one was yeah, because it was all about the Joker. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:30.560 It was because he was he was going back to 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.400 looking at that one it was written. It was written 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.600 in November. Um. The blog post was uh, and it 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:42.360 was about how the Joker applies game theory throughout the movie. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.880 And he breaks down almost scene by scene every time 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:51.480 the Joker appears and and explains which game in game 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:56.640 theory applies to that scene. And there's like a dozen 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.600 different games that he specifically references, and he makes a 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:01.600 case for every single one. And I looked at that 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:03.840 and I thought, you know, I I kind of had 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.880 the same idea once or twice, because I I know 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:11.040 about games, and yeah, things like Prisoner's dilemma, the trolley problem, 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.960 things like that. Um, but he broke it down for 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.720 every single scene. I said, I never saw all of 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.920 those connections. So he really had that ability to to 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.040 to kind of look at the world around him and 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:27.160 art and and and entertainment even if you even if 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:28.200 you don't want to call it art, if you just 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.280 want to call it entertainment. He's able to see the 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.120 underlying thoughts that kind of maybe not consciously but guided 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.839 that work. And uh, even if even if it was 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.240 completely unintentional, he could draw parallels, which was really kind 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:46.839 of an awesome thing. I really admire that quality. In people. 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.880 Certainly I do not possess it, not to that extent anyway. 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.880 So uh, skipping ahead of all that, I mean, that's 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.280 so bottom line geeky guy. Okay, he's a geek, and 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.599 and I say that with full love. I say that 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.079 as a man who has Lord of the Rings tattoo 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:08.400 on his left arm. Okay, I love the geek. I 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.120 learned things about you every day. John. You didn't know 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:11.440 I had a tattoo with the Lord of the Things. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.800 I don't think I did. Right here, Um, I can't 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.640 show you up wearing long sleep today. Um. But anyway, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.200 skipping ahead a little bit too, when he was the 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:24.960 ripe old age of thirteen years old, circle two thousand 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:30.400 or so, he begins to work on the Info Network, 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.080 which is his idea for the Info Network was sort 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.440 of like what Wikipedia became. It's the idea of this 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:43.280 an online encyclopedia storage of knowledge that anyone can can 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.600 add to add to an edit, so essentially the same 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.760 idea as Wikipedia. It's this, you know. He saw that 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:54.080 the Internet was the had the potential to be like 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.880 the Guide in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series. 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.920 If you guys have not read the books, then that's okay, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.240 you go ahead and do that. Will wait, because they're 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:08.400 worth it. Don't don't watch the movie, but you can 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.760 watch the BBC television series or listen to the radio show. 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.000 You can watch the movie. Alan Rickman was excellent in 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.360 that film. That movie was so bad. Martin Freeman was 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:21.000 excellent in that film where Don't Make Me. Performances were fine, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:22.880 the script was terrible. I am from the Internet. I 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.000 will fight you about Martin Freeman. No, no, no no, no, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.079 You're not gonna get any argument on me. I mean, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.080 Freeman was the best thing about the map I took 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:33.480 during the hobbit. Um so anyway, uh, the Info Network. 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.839 He's he's working on this this project, and the work 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.280 gets him some attention. He actually becomes a finalist in 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:45.120 the second Ours Digita Prize and as a finalist, um, 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:49.000 you know, keeping mind, he's thirteen years old. He's he's competing, 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.080 not necessarily competing, but he's he's in the same against 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:56.880 the bracket bracket with people who are big names today 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.880 in technology and who were adults. Many of these people 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:03.480 knew his work. Yeah, they knew him. They knew him 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.120 on online as as it stood at the time Aaron 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.199 s W. But they did not know that Aaron s W. 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:15.120 They're like, whoa am I being punked? Yeah? Is that that? 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.400 That's a really dated reference. That's point in around two 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.319 thousand they might have been saying it. Maybe okay, so 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.040 ask your parents. So he he ended up winning as 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:28.880 a finalist a thousand dollars and access to a web 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.160 server for life and a two day trip to m 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:33.560 I T to meet a couple of a couple of geeks, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.320 a couple of dudes who work a little, a little 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:40.439 influential in technology. One of those two was Tim berners Lee, 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.719 who most of us know as the guy who invented 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:46.800 the World Wide Web back when he was working with 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.480 a CERN kind of kind of a big deal. Yeah, 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.640 so he's the one who kind of developed the framework 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.160 that would become the World Wide Web, and yeah, big name. 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.600 The other fellow that he got to meet on this 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:03.080 two day trip was Hal Abelson, who was professor of 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.160 electrical engineering and Computer Science at m I T. He's 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.439 also a fellow of the I E E E or 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.680 as long time listeners of tech stuff know how I 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:18.280 pronounced it the because it's cajun um not cajun and 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.640 then he was also a hal Abelson's also a founding 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.840 director of Creative Commons and the Free Software Foundation and 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:27.280 Creative Commons will come in to play later in this 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:32.200 discussion as well. Abelson himself, Um so big deal. You know, 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.000 he got to meet some people who were definitely influential 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.079 in the technolog technology space, as well as this idea 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:45.520 that information is powerful and it's important and it's necessary 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.600 and people should have access to it. Um these are 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.360 these are big ideas for a thirteen year old, and 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:57.080 he had embraced them already. Uh. A little bit later, 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:03.760 he became interested in something called r S s rs S, 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.400 of course, being m a rich site summary. I believe 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:11.120 originally it stood for resource description framework site summary. Oh wow, 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.840 look at you. Yes, that's exactly right. It's a it's 0:13:13.880 --> 0:13:17.160 sometimes also called really simple syndication. And you got it. 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.160 You nailed it. And yes, I can read really good. 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.160 I wrote it down. You do read really good. You 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.400 don't speak so well, but to read really good. That's 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.800 why I'm a podcaster. And it's it's what it's what 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.720 the Internet uses to syndicate itself. Yeah. Yeah, so so 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:37.880 I'll give you guys. A for those of you who 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:42.240 are not aware of what RSS is or what it does. Uh, 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.920 let's go back to the old days of the web now, 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.600 pre r S S or pre any other syndication format, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.040 because RSS is not the only one, it's just it's 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:53.560 sort of the one that came out on top. But 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.920 pre RSS and other syndication formats, the way you would 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.000 get information on the net is you would go visit 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:01.600 a website. Yeah, you would. You would type in the 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.360 r L and you would click go, and you would 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.440 visit the website right, and you would look and you 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.800 you would actually scan the website to see if anything 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.760 you had popped up. This applied for everything from website 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.640 that was about a specific company you were interested in, 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.800 or a community. Blogs were kind of not a thing yet, 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.560 but but we web comics maybe, or a new site. 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:25.440 So you would you might think, oh, you know, I 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.000 hadn't checked the news in a while, let me go, 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:28.320 and then you would go and you would actually have 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.600 to start kind of scanning through stuff and look, all right, well, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.360 what's what's new? What have I not read? I know, 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:35.720 I think I read that one. So it was it 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.880 was very time consuming. The idea behind the syndication was 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.240 that instead of you going to these sites, the sites 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.880 would send little bits of information to some sort of 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.000 portal page a reader aggregator. Yeah, like Google Reader is 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.840 a very popular one. You might log into this reader 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.320 program or reader site really is what it was, uh, 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.000 And then all that information would get fed to you 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.800 whenever a new piece of nation came in and you 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.800 could just look at a glance and see, oh, this 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.040 one website I'm interested in published a new article and 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.320 you could read the headline and think, oh, is that 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:11.160 something I want to look into more? And depending upon 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.000 the way they syndicated their feet, you might even be 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.600 able to read the entire article within your reader without 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:19.320 having to ever visit the site. Uh. Not a lot 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.560 of websites like that, because it meant that you could 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.360 read their content without visiting the site, which often meant 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.240 that they were not looking at their ads. Yeah, they 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.400 were getting ad impressions. So a lot of sites instead 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.400 would allow the first paragraph and a half and then 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:33.800 a click through. Yeah, and then you would have to 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.760 click through. But the the idea was all about making 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:42.240 sure that that you would be getting the latest information 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.720 as you were as it was being generated so that 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.320 you didn't have to keep checking. Yeah, and around around 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.760 two thousand one, a version of RSS called RSS one 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.880 point now was being developed. Yeah. Yeah, the RSS originally 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:59.680 was kind of being um created by by essentially Netscape. 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.800 So the Netscape group was working on RSS, and they 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.680 came out with things like r s S zero point nine, 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:10.120 which used r DF elements, which is that resource description 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.280 framework that you were mentioning, Lauren. Um that by the way, 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.320 it essentially is all about how links linked to each 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.560 other and the information between the links. It's a meta 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.680 data issue. Um, it's kind of complicated. So and ultimately 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.720 it doesn't matter because they removed the r DF elements 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.560 when they released RSS zero point nine one. Once they 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.800 removed the r DF elements, they said, oops, yes, our 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.880 acronym no longer means r d F r d F. Uh, 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:42.680 you know sites syndication. We gotta call it something else. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.080 And uh, that's when we became rich site syndication. Uh. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.400 And then of course eventually became really simple syndication UM 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.120 or rich site summary I should say, not syndication. Sorry, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:57.600 that's my brain is totally syndicated. So anyway, Netscape releases 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.720 point nine and point nine one. Uh, it becomes rich 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:07.280 Site Summary and then Netscape ends its development with the standard. Okay, 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.120 so the thing was there are a lot of people 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.960 were saying this was kind of a god. Yeah, guys, 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.840 why why did we just put that down? Yeah, we 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.720 kind of want that. So two different uh entities, I 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.679 guess one person and one group began to work on 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:27.720 developing RSS further. On one end you had the the 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.240 r S S Dev Working Group, and on the other 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:32.920 end you had a fellow by the name of Dave 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:38.919 Winer and uh the they were independently working on creating 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.359 and furthering the standard of r s S. Uh. Weiner 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:48.639 attempted to trademark RSS, but due to a clerical technicality 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.760 that trademark did not go through. The r S S 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:55.800 Dev Working Group ended up publishing RSS one point oh. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.000 And that was part of that working group they were 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.040 they were originally I think about twelve or fourteen people 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.240 on it. Yeah, it was basically the Hobbit Party. Yeah. 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:10.720 One one of those people was fourteen year old Aaron Sports. Yeah, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.680 so Aaron Swart, He's working with people like people from 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.920 the O'Reilly Media group who were working on this set 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.359 of standards. At fourteen years old, he was one of 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:26.840 the people helping define the standards of RSS one point oh. Specifically, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:33.760 he was looking at creating some semantic elements in RSS specification, Uh, 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:38.480 semantic being that it would have a more almost like 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.840 a natural language recognition ability to it. It's it's really 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.280 all about meta data, the data about data, and how 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.879 that helps aggregate information in a way that's useful to 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.600 human beings, so that, you know, because computers don't understand 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.800 the actual information that is that they handle, right, so 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.680 you have to create information about that information so computers 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.520 can start to make associations, can start filing. Yeah, for humans, 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.960 it's natural. For computers, it takes a lot of work. 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:09.720 So that's kind of what he was building out, was 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.840 this whole um that's semantic element into it. That was 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.439 kind of what he was specifically interested in. Meanwhile, just 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.600 to kind of wrap up the RSS stuff, um Winer 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.320 would go on to develop RSS two point oh, which 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.000 would take the place of RSS one point oh, even 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.840 though it was not based on one point oh at all, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.560 because he was developing his simultaneous Yeah, the development forked 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:36.639 and on one branch you had one point oh and 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:38.240 the other branch you had two point and two point 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.800 o ended up eventually taking over. Yeah, and so one 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.639 point I wasn't really it's still really impressive that they 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:45.640 were creating it, and a lot of the work that 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.840 that sports especially did with metadet data he ended up 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.720 taking other places. Yes, Yeah, but it's kind of important 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:54.800 to bring that into perspective because I've seen a lot 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:59.080 of reports that just say, w R, yes he invented RSS, 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:03.359 which one is not accurate and two is certainly not accurate. Uh, 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.720 once you go forward a couple of years when RSS 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:09.240 two point out takes over. But but his contributions were 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.480 nonetheless important, and as you just pointed out, they were 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:18.200 applicable to other elements of technology, not just the RSS project. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.199 So yeah, that was that was his involvement in that 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.439 at age fourteen. I will not tell you what I 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.040 was up to when I was fourteen years old, because 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.840 none of it is even remotely as impressive as that 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.600 one accomplished. I'm pretty sure I was like watching Mystery 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.520 Science Theater three thousand and playing Mario Kart at fourteen, 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.200 I was probably wishing there was something called Mystery Science 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.800 Theater three thousand. It happens to all of us because 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.840 I'm old. As Lauren has pointed out from the Star 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:56.000 Wars discussion one per episode, one episode. Um, so this 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.320 is about the same time that that Aaron Sports made 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:00.560 a made a big decision in his life. Yeah, he 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.880 decided to drop out of high school that year. Yeah 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.800 that's um, that's a bold decision for someone who is 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:12.840 uh already showing so much promise. Uh, It's not not unusual. 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:18.320 And that I've seen a lot of prodigies. I mean, 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.520 Steve Stephen Hawking I think did terribly in primary school. 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.040 Steve Jobs and Bill Gates both dropped out, but they 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.399 dropped out of college. They completed high school, but they 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:29.640 dropped out of college. Oh, you know, it's I think 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.199 that he It sounds like Aaron had a lot of 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.639 support from his family and that he was, you know, 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.840 being encouraged to take on these crazy projects. Yeah. And 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.080 I have a feeling he was also one of those 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.280 people who the curriculum in a school just did not 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:47.440 match up to to his. I was pretty bored in 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.639 high school and I'm not that smart, so you know, 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.600 I was also pretty bored in high school. When we 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.440 weren't talking about Shakespeare. When we were talking about Shakespeare, 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.080 it was very much engaged. Um No, I had some 0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:02.400 great teachers in high will please people if don't don't 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:07.720 write me hate mail teachers. Um. So he also, while 0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:10.880 not in high school, taught himself how to code and Python, 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.800 so that was kind of impressive. You know, he decided 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.440 that he needed to learn some more coding language. Um 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.520 and uh. Then he ended up meeting a couple of 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:27.320 important people, including Abelson again, also Lawrence Lessig, who would 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.400 become uh sort of a mentor and friend to him 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:35.440 throughout his life and u uh Eric Eldridge Eldredge rather 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.600 and they they were they had just weren't banded together 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:43.760 to create um. Creative commons. Now. Creative comments is a 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:47.080 way of licensing and copyrighting software that is not as 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:52.359 restrictive as the traditional copyright because traditional copyright in the 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:54.960 United States, at least, um, it's pretty much a one 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.680 zero it's a yes no kind of permission thing, wherein 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:01.560 it's it's very possessive and it lasts forever and not 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.439 literally forever, but you might as well be it's and 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.159 it gets It seems like every year there are more 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:14.000 companies petitioning to lengthen the the era of copyright. Um. 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:16.840 Often you'll hear people talk about Disney being one of 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.560 the big ones that they never want Mickey Mouse to 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:23.000 pass out of copyright, and uh, I mean from a 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.280