WEBVTT - Child Marriage is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:22.596 Bushkin im Ave Higgins, and this is solvable. Interviews with 0:00:22.676 --> 0:00:25.916 the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to solve 0:00:25.956 --> 0:00:31.436 the world's biggest problems. My solvable is to end child 0:00:31.476 --> 0:00:36.596 marriage globally by the year two thousand to thirty. That's 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:39.876 Mabel van Uranier, and she is trying to solve a 0:00:39.956 --> 0:00:43.236 problem which is bigger than you might think. Child marriage 0:00:43.476 --> 0:00:47.916 is a worldwide problem. Globally, one in five girls are 0:00:48.076 --> 0:00:51.436 thought to be married as children. That means that about 0:00:51.436 --> 0:00:57.116 twelve million children are getting married every year. Child marriage 0:00:57.196 --> 0:01:00.556 happens everywhere, including right here in America. It was only 0:01:00.636 --> 0:01:03.516 last year that Delaware and New Jersey became the first 0:01:03.556 --> 0:01:07.196 states to outlaw marriage for anyone under the age of eighteen. 0:01:07.836 --> 0:01:10.556 The state of Missouri as the most lenient law in 0:01:10.596 --> 0:01:13.596 the nation that allows fifteen year olds to wed with 0:01:13.676 --> 0:01:19.196 only one parent signature required. But child marriage happens most 0:01:19.236 --> 0:01:23.676 often in developing countries. The problem cuts across ethnic, cultural 0:01:23.796 --> 0:01:27.036 and religious lines and can be found everywhere from Africa 0:01:27.076 --> 0:01:29.596 to the Middle East, Asia to Europe, and like I 0:01:29.636 --> 0:01:34.036 mentioned here, in America. UNISEPT says that marriage before the 0:01:34.076 --> 0:01:38.076 age of eighteen often amounts to a fundamental violation of 0:01:38.196 --> 0:01:42.356 human rights. There are many things that increase the risk 0:01:42.516 --> 0:01:46.876 that a child will get married, including poverty, the idea 0:01:46.956 --> 0:01:51.716 that marriage will provide protection, social norms and ideas about 0:01:51.756 --> 0:01:56.556 family honor, or even just customary or religious laws that 0:01:56.596 --> 0:02:01.156 condone child marriage. Countries like Niger and the Central African 0:02:01.156 --> 0:02:04.916 Republic and Bangladesh, they have among the highest rates of 0:02:05.036 --> 0:02:08.036 child marriage in the world, and they're all struggling with 0:02:08.076 --> 0:02:12.436 the multitude of other issues too. In today's episode, you'll 0:02:12.476 --> 0:02:16.276 hear Mabel talking mainly about girls. Boys being married is 0:02:16.316 --> 0:02:19.396 of course a violation of their rights too, but it's 0:02:19.436 --> 0:02:23.756 far more common for girls. Child marriage is often driven 0:02:23.836 --> 0:02:28.436 by patriarchal values and the desire to control female sexuality, 0:02:29.116 --> 0:02:32.076 and the consequences of a child marriage well, they can 0:02:32.116 --> 0:02:37.556 be devastating. Pregnancy is consistently among the leading causes of 0:02:37.636 --> 0:02:42.876 death for girls aged fifteen to nineteen worldwide. Girls who 0:02:42.916 --> 0:02:46.596 marry before eighteen are more likely to experience domestic violence 0:02:46.636 --> 0:02:49.836 in their peers who marry later, and it often has 0:02:49.876 --> 0:02:53.356 a terrible effect on the girl's mental health too. So 0:02:53.796 --> 0:02:57.076 this is an extremely worthy solvable that I'm really glad 0:02:57.076 --> 0:03:01.636 we're discussing Mabel van Uranier has been a global advocate 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:06.076 for freedom, justice and development for more than twenty years, 0:03:06.116 --> 0:03:09.356 and most recently she's thrown herself into her work as 0:03:09.396 --> 0:03:13.396 the initiator and chair of Girls Not Brides, the Global 0:03:13.436 --> 0:03:17.476 Partnership to End Child Marriage. Now that partnership is between 0:03:17.676 --> 0:03:21.436 more than twelve hundred organizations in more than ninety five countries, 0:03:21.756 --> 0:03:25.516 and they're all committed to ending child marriage and enabling 0:03:25.556 --> 0:03:29.676 girls to fulfill their potential. Oh and you'll hear Mabel 0:03:29.756 --> 0:03:31.956 mention the Elders in a moment. And in case you 0:03:32.036 --> 0:03:34.996 haven't heard of them, the Elders were set up by 0:03:34.996 --> 0:03:37.876 Nelson Mandela as a kind of a supergroup of former 0:03:37.916 --> 0:03:41.076 heads of state. They all worked together now for peace, 0:03:41.356 --> 0:03:46.236 justice and human rights, Mary Robinson, Desmond Tutu, Jimmy Carter, 0:03:46.756 --> 0:03:50.276 basically all of the coolest older people that we've got. 0:03:50.676 --> 0:03:53.516 That's the Elders. And from two thousand and eight until 0:03:53.516 --> 0:03:57.076 two and twelve, Mabel was CEO of the Elders. That's 0:03:57.076 --> 0:04:00.196 when she began to focus on her solvable, which is 0:04:00.396 --> 0:04:03.636 ending child marriage. All right here she is now in 0:04:03.716 --> 0:04:08.716 conversation with Jacob Weisberg. Child marriage is happening every year 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:12.596 to twelve million girls all over the world. That means 0:04:12.596 --> 0:04:16.516 a girl almost every two seconds getting married, and so 0:04:16.596 --> 0:04:19.716 the number of child brides is not only enormous, but 0:04:19.796 --> 0:04:24.276 the consequences are really devastating. I know countless stories of 0:04:24.276 --> 0:04:26.636 girls who told me that their wedding day was the 0:04:26.716 --> 0:04:29.076 day they had to leave school. It was the day 0:04:29.116 --> 0:04:31.156 that they were shipped off to live with a family 0:04:31.996 --> 0:04:35.116 of a husband who they had never met before, who 0:04:35.196 --> 0:04:37.996 is older in age often and they go live with 0:04:38.196 --> 0:04:41.236 their in laws then, and you know, for them, their 0:04:41.236 --> 0:04:43.916 wedding night is could be the night they get pregnant, 0:04:44.116 --> 0:04:47.196 even though they themselves are a still a child. And 0:04:47.236 --> 0:04:50.036 so what you then see is that there's a disproportional 0:04:50.276 --> 0:04:55.196 high problems around maternal health and even maternal death. For 0:04:55.356 --> 0:04:58.836 child brides. The chances that their babies will survive are 0:04:58.916 --> 0:05:01.756 much lower than women who have their first child after 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:04.996 the age of eighteen. They're more often becoming the victims 0:05:05.036 --> 0:05:08.316 of violence domestic violence by the hands of their husbands 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:11.596 or their in law. In some cases, it seems like 0:05:11.636 --> 0:05:15.876 they're more likely to become HIV infected. And so what 0:05:15.996 --> 0:05:20.076 child marriage really is for these girls is turning from 0:05:20.116 --> 0:05:24.156 what was maybe a life with a reasonably bright future. 0:05:24.836 --> 0:05:28.516 Turning their lives basically into hell. Now that's happening on 0:05:28.516 --> 0:05:31.116 a massive skill. But what it also means is that, 0:05:31.196 --> 0:05:32.916 you know, as a world, we have said we want, 0:05:33.036 --> 0:05:36.276 you know, to achieve the STGs. Now, eight out of 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:41.836 these seventeen sustainable development goals, including education, including maternal health, 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:45.356 including infant health, including violence, et cetera, et cetera, they're 0:05:45.436 --> 0:05:48.236 linked to child marriage. And so the idea that we 0:05:48.276 --> 0:05:51.276 can ever get every girl into school, or that we 0:05:51.356 --> 0:05:55.956 can ever reduce maternal mortality if we continue to ignore 0:05:56.036 --> 0:05:59.156 the issue of child marriage, it's just a dream. So 0:05:59.636 --> 0:06:02.476 I believe ending child marriage wouldn't only be really good 0:06:02.476 --> 0:06:05.156 for these twelve million girls, but it also means that 0:06:05.236 --> 0:06:07.996 if we ever want to eradicate poverty, we need to 0:06:08.036 --> 0:06:11.196 make sure that these girls actually can live productive, healthy, 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:14.636 happy lives. So I'm curious, Mabel, what brought you personally 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:17.836 to this problem. Why child marriage the thing that you've 0:06:18.036 --> 0:06:21.796 committed your life to salving. Well, it happened when I 0:06:21.836 --> 0:06:25.196 was working in twenty ten for the Elders, you know, 0:06:25.236 --> 0:06:30.436 Nelson Mandela's organization of eminent former presidents, prime ministers, etc. 0:06:31.156 --> 0:06:33.556 And they, the elders, had said, we want to work 0:06:33.556 --> 0:06:37.916 on gender inequality. They felt that that gender inequality is 0:06:37.956 --> 0:06:41.156 the biggest injustice of the twenty first century, and they 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:43.956 specifically wanted to look at that through the lens of 0:06:44.036 --> 0:06:47.356 how religion and tradition, which are normally forces for good 0:06:47.356 --> 0:06:50.916 in our lives, too often religion and tradition get misused 0:06:50.916 --> 0:06:54.596 to justify discrimination against girls and women. And so they 0:06:55.036 --> 0:06:57.396 spoke out about that. It got a lot of traction, 0:06:57.436 --> 0:06:59.396 and then we started looking at like, is there in 0:06:59.476 --> 0:07:03.196 this whole issue of gender inequality a specific example that 0:07:03.236 --> 0:07:06.116 would benefit from getting the attention of the elders, but 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:09.556 that isn't yet kind of on the global agenda, And 0:07:09.876 --> 0:07:12.316 at some point I was I was therefore, looking at 0:07:12.356 --> 0:07:15.116 what could the elders do, and having lunch with a 0:07:15.156 --> 0:07:18.036 friend and we started talking about child marriage. Was I thought, 0:07:18.076 --> 0:07:21.636 it's interesting the two words say it, oh, child marriage. 0:07:22.236 --> 0:07:24.356 But at the same time I also thought, it's interesting 0:07:24.356 --> 0:07:26.596 you never hear about it. You know, you would go 0:07:26.676 --> 0:07:30.436 to these big un conferences about education, or about health, 0:07:30.516 --> 0:07:34.596 or about development, and the word child marriage was rarely, 0:07:34.676 --> 0:07:37.396 rarely uttered, And so I thought, I'm curious, is this 0:07:37.516 --> 0:07:39.516 one hundred thousand girls a year? Is it maybe half 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:41.596 a million girls a year? Maybe a million girls a year, 0:07:41.996 --> 0:07:44.516 And when we then found out it's actually twelve million 0:07:44.516 --> 0:07:47.316 girls a year, I felt like, this is crazy. How 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:49.356 can there be a problem that is so big that 0:07:49.396 --> 0:07:52.556 it is having such a huge impact on poverty eradication 0:07:52.836 --> 0:07:56.596 and it's completely ignored. And I think that's partially because 0:07:56.996 --> 0:08:00.676 because these girls are more or less invisible. You know, 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:04.996 they often they they're miners, they don't speak English in 0:08:05.036 --> 0:08:08.276 many cases, they live in far away rural places. So 0:08:08.356 --> 0:08:11.596 for them to organized and put their issue on the 0:08:11.596 --> 0:08:15.476 global agenda is just impossible if you think about, you know, 0:08:15.516 --> 0:08:17.756 the success of the eighths movement, for example, to a 0:08:17.836 --> 0:08:21.356 large extent that was driven by men infected by the 0:08:21.596 --> 0:08:25.316 HIV virus who really put the issue on the global agenda. 0:08:25.676 --> 0:08:28.316 I think another reason why child marriage wasn't really getting 0:08:28.316 --> 0:08:33.276 the attention it deserved was because it's driven by complex issues. 0:08:33.476 --> 0:08:35.756 People do it either because of tradition, so you know, 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:39.716 you do it because your generation and the generation before 0:08:39.756 --> 0:08:42.316 you on the generation before them has always done this, 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:45.396 and so people don't really think about it, or people 0:08:45.436 --> 0:08:47.836 do it because they're concerned about the sexual safety of 0:08:47.876 --> 0:08:51.996 their daughters. Imagine that she would get pregnant before marriage 0:08:51.996 --> 0:08:56.236 and thereby dishonored the family or herself. Some people do 0:08:56.276 --> 0:08:58.716 it because of poverty, you know, marrying a daughter of 0:08:58.876 --> 0:09:01.396 means one less mouth to feed, or in the case 0:09:01.436 --> 0:09:05.396 of India, the younger the girl is, the less high 0:09:05.436 --> 0:09:07.636 the dowry that the family of the girl has to 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:11.036 pay to the family. In the end, it's all related 0:09:11.036 --> 0:09:15.596 to gender inequality. It's all that idea that girls are 0:09:15.716 --> 0:09:19.116 less important than boys. And so I think the reasons 0:09:19.156 --> 0:09:22.996 why this happens are complex, which is why I think 0:09:23.236 --> 0:09:25.236 maybe one of the reasons why people didn't want to 0:09:25.236 --> 0:09:29.156 touch it. And I personally believe the idea that something 0:09:29.276 --> 0:09:32.436 is complex doesn't mean that therefore it isn't important, and 0:09:32.876 --> 0:09:35.716 I feel that this is very important. Then the elders agreed, 0:09:35.756 --> 0:09:37.676 and so we we then said, okay, we're going to 0:09:37.756 --> 0:09:41.796 change this. You've met girls who have escaped from child marriage. 0:09:42.276 --> 0:09:44.476 I wonder you give me more of a sense of 0:09:44.516 --> 0:09:47.876 the face of the problem. Where is it and what's 0:09:47.876 --> 0:09:51.116 the experience of these girls, Like do many of them 0:09:51.156 --> 0:09:55.276 get out? What? Because if you say it's mostly silent 0:09:55.436 --> 0:09:58.356 in these girls are denied a voice, and we don't 0:09:58.476 --> 0:10:01.716 hear the story of child marriage from their perspective for 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:06.156 the most part. So I've now traveled to many places 0:10:06.156 --> 0:10:09.436 where child marriage happens, and it happens truly all over world, 0:10:10.076 --> 0:10:15.236 across religions, across cultures, across continents, and it's an illusion. 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:18.516 I mean, they're none of the Holy Book says marry 0:10:18.556 --> 0:10:22.116 her daughters before eighteen, but it is happening across all religions, 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:26.196 for example, and the highest numbers are in Sub Saharan Africa. 0:10:26.356 --> 0:10:29.756 The country with the highest percentage rate is Nisa, where 0:10:29.916 --> 0:10:32.516 three out of every four girls are married before the 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:36.316 age of eighteen. The country with the highest absolute number 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:39.316 is India, which has obviously a huge population, but also 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:42.756 the rates there are quite high. So South Asia is 0:10:42.836 --> 0:10:47.036 also really a problematic. But then you see child marriage, 0:10:47.036 --> 0:10:49.996 for example, also in Latin America, and that the stories 0:10:49.996 --> 0:10:52.956 of the girls in Latin America are often slightly different than, 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:56.436 for example, the girls in Bangladesh or the girls in Africa, 0:10:56.476 --> 0:10:59.796 And so it's very important to you know, look contact 0:10:59.836 --> 0:11:03.756 specific why does it happen. For example, in Ethiopia, there 0:11:03.756 --> 0:11:07.356 are a lot of it seems related to basically tradition. 0:11:07.556 --> 0:11:11.556 We always do this, and the many fathers and mothers 0:11:11.596 --> 0:11:14.116 don't even know that they're alternatives and that actually it 0:11:14.156 --> 0:11:16.796 would be They think that this is the right thing 0:11:16.836 --> 0:11:19.916 for their daughters and they don't realize how harmful it is. 0:11:20.276 --> 0:11:22.836 But in Ethiopia, I'll never forget. I met a group 0:11:22.836 --> 0:11:24.756 of married girls and there was this girl I was 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:26.876 seated next to, and I asked her, how old were 0:11:26.916 --> 0:11:29.356 you when you got married? And she said, I don't 0:11:29.356 --> 0:11:31.196 really know, because I don't know when I was born, 0:11:31.396 --> 0:11:33.596 because many of these girls don't have burst their difficates. 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:35.916 And she said, but I must have been between the 0:11:35.956 --> 0:11:38.596 age of five and seven when I got married. And 0:11:38.636 --> 0:11:41.476 this really went like a knife through my heart because 0:11:42.116 --> 0:11:44.476 at that time my own daughters were five and six 0:11:44.556 --> 0:11:47.676 years old. And I thought about the lottery of life. 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:53.116 If my daughters had had been born there in northern Ethiopia, 0:11:53.276 --> 0:11:56.196 they might have been married at that time. And it 0:11:57.156 --> 0:12:00.156 really felt like this is an injustice, that this cannot continue. 0:12:00.196 --> 0:12:04.756 I mean, the geography, the place where you're born, should 0:12:04.836 --> 0:12:08.916 not determine destiny, the chances that you have to live, 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:12.836 you know, a well educated and happy life. But then 0:12:12.876 --> 0:12:15.116 I think of the girls who I met in Indonesia, 0:12:15.276 --> 0:12:18.116 who some of them ended up in child marriage because 0:12:18.436 --> 0:12:21.676 sex is a taboo and so people don't really want 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:23.756 to talk about it. And that's not just in Indonesia, 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:26.036 that is in many places in the world, including in 0:12:26.076 --> 0:12:29.276 the West. And so these girls didn't know how you 0:12:29.276 --> 0:12:32.116 get pregnant. They didn't know that you can have contracept 0:12:32.156 --> 0:12:35.596 us to avoid getting pregnant. And so these girls, thanks 0:12:35.636 --> 0:12:39.836 to the inappropriate advances of boys, and pregnant, and that 0:12:39.916 --> 0:12:42.636 means that they're basically then forced to marry the men 0:12:42.676 --> 0:12:46.076 who made them pregnant, and normally then also leave school. 0:12:46.556 --> 0:12:49.236 So the reasons why it happens are different. And that's 0:12:49.236 --> 0:12:51.796 why it's also so important when you try to solve 0:12:51.876 --> 0:12:55.396 this issue that you look carefully at why is it 0:12:55.476 --> 0:12:59.516 happening in this particular community, what are the reasons, and 0:12:59.596 --> 0:13:02.196 how can we change it. It wasn't so long ago 0:13:02.316 --> 0:13:06.236 that the child marriage was totally normal in Europe, in 0:13:06.316 --> 0:13:09.796 the developed world. I mean, I was just thinking, you know, 0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:13.676 thorn kerker Guard was engaged to a fifteen year old girl, 0:13:13.876 --> 0:13:16.876 Novalace was engaged to a twelve year old girl. These 0:13:16.916 --> 0:13:20.436 were famous moral philosophers in Europe in the nineteenth century. 0:13:20.796 --> 0:13:25.036 So how do you avoid the problem of seeming ethnocentric 0:13:25.116 --> 0:13:28.236 or condescending. We don't do this anymore. Speaking to the 0:13:28.276 --> 0:13:32.116 developed world, you can't do it anymore. I think it's 0:13:32.156 --> 0:13:34.356 a very good point. I mean, you cannot come in 0:13:34.396 --> 0:13:36.996 as an outsider into a community and tell them this 0:13:37.116 --> 0:13:40.396 is wrong. Stop it. I think if you're ultimately talking 0:13:40.436 --> 0:13:43.556 about what needs to happen is social norm change. You 0:13:43.636 --> 0:13:47.156 need to change what people consider normal, and that can 0:13:47.196 --> 0:13:49.476 only be done in an effective way if you are 0:13:49.676 --> 0:13:52.116 do it in a respectful way, and I mean it's 0:13:52.196 --> 0:13:55.956 done by people who the community trusts. So foreigners walking 0:13:55.956 --> 0:13:57.836 into a community and saying this is wrong is not 0:13:57.876 --> 0:14:01.036 going to work. Let's also not forget I don't think 0:14:01.076 --> 0:14:04.556 that any parent wants to hurt their children. So parents 0:14:04.596 --> 0:14:07.236 want the best for their children. So what we see 0:14:07.436 --> 0:14:10.196 is that when you want to create last change, Yes 0:14:10.276 --> 0:14:12.676 you need laws that set a minimum age of marriage. 0:14:12.836 --> 0:14:14.836 Yes you need alternatives. You know, you need to make 0:14:14.836 --> 0:14:18.916 sure that they're schooling, that there is reproductive health, contraceptives, 0:14:18.916 --> 0:14:21.276 that all that is available. But in the end, if 0:14:21.276 --> 0:14:24.556 you really want to get to the point where parents 0:14:24.596 --> 0:14:27.716 say go from of course my daughter will be married 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:31.076 at age fourteen. Two. Of course my daughter will not 0:14:31.196 --> 0:14:34.156 be married at the age of fourteen. You need social 0:14:34.476 --> 0:14:37.196 normative change to happen in the community, and what we 0:14:37.356 --> 0:14:40.796 know how best to do that is by actually having 0:14:40.836 --> 0:14:43.476 people who are trusted by the community do that and 0:14:43.596 --> 0:14:45.996 sit down with them and not tell them what you're 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:48.396 doing is wrong, but start talking about And I've seen 0:14:48.436 --> 0:14:51.236 these programs with my own eyes and it is fascinating. 0:14:51.276 --> 0:14:53.556 They take time, but you know, you sit down with 0:14:53.636 --> 0:14:56.956 everybody in the community every other Friday under the big tree, 0:14:57.236 --> 0:14:59.956 and you talk about how come that we're so poor, 0:15:00.316 --> 0:15:02.756 how come that so many of our young girls die 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:05.796 in childbirth? How come you know X, y Z. And 0:15:05.836 --> 0:15:10.156 then you help people understand about rights, you help people 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:13.676 understand about alternatives. And what we see happen then is 0:15:13.716 --> 0:15:18.556 communities that collectively deside by themselves to say, look, we 0:15:18.676 --> 0:15:21.196 thought we were doing the right thing. We're not longer 0:15:21.276 --> 0:15:23.916 gonna marry our daughters at a young age. We know 0:15:24.036 --> 0:15:25.756 it is better for all of us, not just for 0:15:25.756 --> 0:15:27.396 the girls, not to do it, and we will all 0:15:27.436 --> 0:15:30.276 be wealthier and healthier if we do so. And that's 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:33.556 amazing and that's the power of change. And that's what 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:37.036 also makes me hopeful that if we can kind of 0:15:37.076 --> 0:15:41.356 skill these programs up and really empower these local change 0:15:41.396 --> 0:15:44.356 makers to make it possible for them to work with 0:15:46.156 --> 0:15:49.836 traditional leaders, with local religious leaders, with the teachers, with 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:53.116 anybody who holds power in the community, if they can 0:15:53.156 --> 0:15:56.076 all work together, all across roots level, I think we 0:15:56.156 --> 0:15:58.676 can see a change at skill that right now we 0:15:58.756 --> 0:16:02.076 find still hard to imagine. Yeah, it's such an important 0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:05.076 point that norms are more important than laws. I mean, 0:16:05.116 --> 0:16:07.516 I think you can go all over the United States 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:12.716 and find state like Massachusetts where the child marriage is 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:15.316 legal if the parents agree to it, you know, the 0:16:15.356 --> 0:16:17.436 age of twelve, but it doesn't happen because it's not 0:16:17.516 --> 0:16:21.156 done anymore. But does the law play a role as well? 0:16:21.436 --> 0:16:25.116 The laws to certain extent plays a role. I mean, well, 0:16:25.236 --> 0:16:27.956 India has had a law that for about one hundred 0:16:28.036 --> 0:16:30.116 years that says no marriage under the age of eighteen, 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.076 and that was ignored. So laws can play a role 0:16:33.116 --> 0:16:36.436 if they also get if they get implemented. But changing 0:16:36.476 --> 0:16:39.316 of laws and discussing laws can help to create an 0:16:39.396 --> 0:16:42.756 environment in which change is easier. The situation in the 0:16:42.836 --> 0:16:47.556 United States is actually quite disturbing in that the number 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:49.996 of child brides in the United States seems to be 0:16:50.036 --> 0:16:52.756 around twenty five thousand per year. If you look at 0:16:52.756 --> 0:16:55.836 the global skilled child marriage twelve million per year, twenty 0:16:55.836 --> 0:16:59.716 five thousands isn't a whole lot, but twenty five thousand 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:02.436 girls in a country like the United States getting married 0:17:02.476 --> 0:17:06.316 every year. I just find that flavor guesting. And what's 0:17:06.356 --> 0:17:09.036 disturbing is that until about a year or so ago, 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:13.076 you could get married in the United States in every state, 0:17:13.316 --> 0:17:16.196 all of the fifty states, below the age of eighteen, 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:21.036 because either states had no minimum age of marriage, or 0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:23.236 they had a minimum of age of marriage at for example, 0:17:23.396 --> 0:17:28.116 twelve or sixteen, or those states that had eighteen as 0:17:28.156 --> 0:17:31.476 the minimum age of marriage, there were so called exemplary 0:17:31.596 --> 0:17:36.316 clauses where basically, with the permission of your parents or 0:17:36.356 --> 0:17:38.796 the permission of a judge, you could actually marry before 0:17:38.796 --> 0:17:42.316 the age of eighteen. Now that's starting to change. There 0:17:42.316 --> 0:17:45.956 are two states, New Jersey and Delaware that have changed it. 0:17:45.996 --> 0:17:48.276 If I remember the states correctly, and we know that 0:17:48.316 --> 0:17:50.596 they're in Massachusetts and in other states, there's now a 0:17:50.716 --> 0:17:53.556 push to change the laws, which also helps them to 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:56.956 get a dialogue going. But what I found most disturbing 0:17:57.036 --> 0:17:59.956 is when I learned that these girls take a girl 0:18:00.076 --> 0:18:03.236 sixteen year old in the United States who gets married. 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:06.396 She's not allowed until she's eighteen to buy a house 0:18:07.036 --> 0:18:10.236 because legally, for everything else, you need to be eighteen 0:18:10.276 --> 0:18:13.396 before you can sign any contracts. She's not allowed to 0:18:13.516 --> 0:18:16.516 vote until she's eighteen years old, because we don't trust her, 0:18:16.556 --> 0:18:20.396 apparently with our vote. But if she ends up in 0:18:20.436 --> 0:18:24.476 an abusive marriage, if her husband actually hits her or 0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:27.516 mentally abuses her and she wants to escape to a 0:18:27.596 --> 0:18:30.876 safe house, she's not allowed to enter a safe house 0:18:31.156 --> 0:18:33.876 on her own because she's a minor. She needs her 0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:37.796 parents permission for that, her husband's permission, and the same 0:18:37.836 --> 0:18:40.036 way she can maybe get married, but she can't file 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:42.516 for a divorced or she's eighteen. So that's a crazy 0:18:42.556 --> 0:18:46.516 situation and that clearly needs to just to change. I'm 0:18:46.516 --> 0:18:50.076 really heartened that you think child marriage could be eliminated 0:18:50.116 --> 0:18:53.556 by twenty thirty. That's in eleven years. How will we 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:56.556 see that happen? Will it be particular places that we 0:18:56.716 --> 0:18:59.596 make dramatic progress quickly, or do you think this is 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:04.916 going to be a simultaneous global phenomenon of consciousness and 0:19:04.956 --> 0:19:08.636 reduction and child marriage. It will have to be a 0:19:08.756 --> 0:19:12.356 magic call mix of all that. So we've looked at, okay, 0:19:12.436 --> 0:19:14.956 how do you end child marriage? And we've worked together 0:19:14.996 --> 0:19:18.876 with one hundred and fifty experts worldwide on looking at 0:19:18.916 --> 0:19:21.876 what are the interventions needed to end child marriage? And 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:23.396 that work took us a year and a half and 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:26.076 we developed a theory of change which can be found 0:19:26.116 --> 0:19:29.916 on the Girls Not Brides dot org website, and basically 0:19:29.956 --> 0:19:32.156 we found there are four kinds of interventions that need 0:19:32.156 --> 0:19:34.756 to happen. First, as you need to empower girls. You 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:37.956 need them to realize that they have rights and that 0:19:38.036 --> 0:19:41.276 child marriage is not necessarily a legal nor a good thing. 0:19:41.676 --> 0:19:43.836 But just empowering girls is not going to do the 0:19:43.876 --> 0:19:46.676 trick on its own, because girls constant up to their 0:19:46.676 --> 0:19:50.276 parents on their own. Secondly, you need to sensitize those 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:52.676 who make the decision in the community about when the 0:19:52.756 --> 0:19:55.636 girls should get married. The decision makers so that can 0:19:55.676 --> 0:19:58.836 be the parents, can be the local religious or traditional leaders, 0:19:59.196 --> 0:20:01.076 and you need to do that as we were discussing 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:03.716 in a respectful way. Thirdly, you need to make sure 0:20:03.756 --> 0:20:06.436 that there are alternative services for these girls. So there 0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:08.636 needs to be education because if you keep a girl 0:20:08.636 --> 0:20:12.316 out of marriage but you can't educate her, you're not 0:20:12.356 --> 0:20:15.116 really helping her. Similarly, you know, you need to make 0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:19.156 sure that she gets a reproductive health education and un Fourthly, 0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:21.676 we need to make sure that there are policies and 0:20:21.796 --> 0:20:25.036 laws in place and actually getting implemented. And if you 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:27.796 do all these things, then we know you can make progress. 0:20:28.036 --> 0:20:30.836 Now that sounds complex, but at the same time, we 0:20:30.876 --> 0:20:33.436 see a lot of momentum in people wanting to do this, 0:20:33.636 --> 0:20:36.196 and again, something being complex doesn't mean that it can't 0:20:36.196 --> 0:20:38.756 be done. So we need to do that country by 0:20:38.796 --> 0:20:44.596 country by country by country, and local non governmental organizations 0:20:44.596 --> 0:20:46.396 are going to play a big role in that because 0:20:46.396 --> 0:20:49.156 they're the ones that can really work in the community 0:20:49.316 --> 0:20:52.036 with the parents and with the families who do this. 0:20:52.476 --> 0:20:54.916 But at the same time, when you have governments putting 0:20:54.916 --> 0:20:57.676 their weight behind this and saying, you know, we the 0:20:57.716 --> 0:21:00.756 government of Mozambique are now making sure that all our 0:21:00.836 --> 0:21:03.796 laws say are consistent and say eighteen is the minimum 0:21:03.796 --> 0:21:06.316 major of marriage, and we're going to have government policy 0:21:06.356 --> 0:21:09.996 on ending child marriage. That helps to create momentum and 0:21:10.036 --> 0:21:12.996 there what we see then, is that governments, once they 0:21:13.076 --> 0:21:15.316 start because this issue is now on the global agenda 0:21:15.436 --> 0:21:18.436 and not longer ignored, governments start competing for wanting to 0:21:18.476 --> 0:21:20.516 be the front runner. So what we need to do 0:21:20.556 --> 0:21:23.316 is on the one end, change on a grassroots level, 0:21:23.916 --> 0:21:25.796 but we also need to see change happening at a 0:21:25.876 --> 0:21:28.396 national level, and then we need that kind of global 0:21:28.476 --> 0:21:31.956 competition and make the issue relevant or keep it relevant 0:21:31.996 --> 0:21:34.796 on a global level. And it's really exciting to see 0:21:34.836 --> 0:21:37.316 that that's happening. And what I think then what happens 0:21:37.556 --> 0:21:41.316 if you get this accelerator because people start seeing positive 0:21:41.396 --> 0:21:44.756 change happening. And what I've learned over my years working 0:21:44.756 --> 0:21:47.516 on creating social change, not just in the field of 0:21:47.556 --> 0:21:50.436 child marriage but also in other areas, is when there's 0:21:50.636 --> 0:21:53.836 positive momentum, people want to be part of it. It 0:21:53.996 --> 0:21:56.596 really it works like a magnet. And so I'm sure 0:21:56.636 --> 0:21:58.836 that with the progress we're seeing, we're only going to 0:21:58.956 --> 0:22:01.356 pull in more people who want to help to create change, 0:22:01.516 --> 0:22:03.516 and we're going to see more villages that say, look, 0:22:03.516 --> 0:22:05.836 we actually want to end child marriage, and so then 0:22:05.836 --> 0:22:09.316 it will start spreading like a wildfire, which is what 0:22:09.396 --> 0:22:11.596 makes me hopeful that we can actually do this in 0:22:11.676 --> 0:22:14.876 what might seem very ambitious in an eleven or twelve 0:22:14.916 --> 0:22:18.636 year timeframe. May, well, it's wonderful that you've taken on 0:22:18.676 --> 0:22:20.916 this problem the way you have. What are some of 0:22:20.956 --> 0:22:23.596 the things listeners can do if they want to get 0:22:23.636 --> 0:22:26.956 involved or help reduce and leading towards the elimination of 0:22:27.036 --> 0:22:30.236