1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Previously on Empire on Blood. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 2: You're basically telling me I don't care. That's the truth. 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 3: Getting the law in the pursuit of job. 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 4: Congratulations, thank you, and I'm sorry it took us as long. 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 3: As it took us to get to this place. What 6 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 3: the hell were you doing? You know, I was trying 7 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 3: to open the handcuffs with the key. You know what 8 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 3: I mean? I had no train. 9 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 5: We are the only group of motherfuckers who get victimized 10 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 5: and then get re abused again. 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Detective Frank Vigiana was famous for his skills. 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 6: I was nicknamed Father Frank by the homicide Peer supervisor. 13 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 3: To get confessions, they do confess to you. Yeah, that 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 3: was pretty good at that. 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: Remember Frank Vigiano. He was the star Bronx detective who 16 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: single handedly saved the prosecution's case against cal at least 17 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: for a time. It was one of a number of 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: magical fees that Father Frank seemed to perform on a 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: regular basis. I wanted to talk to him about those feats. 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: We met on a fall day back in twenty seventeen. 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: Father Frank invited me to his boat. 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: You like my boat. I love your boat. 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 7: It's beautiful. 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: It's beautiful here too. You know, it's a flyet. I mean, 25 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 3: it's it's really not like you're in the city. 26 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: Father Frank paid two hundred thousand dollars for the boat. 27 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: He felt it was a bargain. 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 3: I love the water. I love the water. 29 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: Frank and I sat in the boat's stern, the only 30 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: nautical term I know. From there we could see across 31 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: the East River to Throg's Neck, the southern tip of 32 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: the Bronx, where Father Frank grew up. That day there 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: was a gentle wind. On the recording, you can hear 34 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: the wind and some kind of chiming in the background. 35 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: Not peak audio conditions really, But then I was a 36 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: print journalist for a long time. 37 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 6: If you look back at the registrations, you could see 38 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 6: my economic status in life. 39 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: Frank and I talked for hours about his way with people, 40 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: including his way with Dwight. Remember how one day Dwight 41 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: had suddenly confessed to the murder's cow had been convicted of. 42 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: Father Frank told me about getting Dwight back on track, 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: first by promising to move Dwight to a safer jail, 44 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: then reminding Dwight that if he did confess to murder, 45 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: he could probably say goodbye to parole. Frank had a 46 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: detective's gut, he said, he instinctively knew who was bullshitting 47 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: and who was telling the truth, and that helped him 48 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: illicit confession after confession, like a priest in the booth. 49 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: That led me to one of my last questions. As 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: far as I knew, as far as Frank knew, he'd 51 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: had an unblemished career. 52 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: That's work chanced. A long career you've had. 53 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 5: He did all kinds of case You ever look back 54 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 5: and think, you know, that guy wasn't guilty. 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: Never, I had never. 56 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: Then he paused. There was one one that nagged at 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: him for a long time. Almost thirty years before I 58 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: stepped aboard Frank's boat, Detective Frank Vigiano had worked on 59 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: the case of a sixteen year old boy convicted of 60 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: a terrible crime, killing his mother. 61 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 6: It bothered me thinking, well, maybe, but there was no 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 6: I mean, I went with all the evidence I had, 63 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 6: which was a lot of evidence that you know, the 64 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 6: fingerprints on the door with his and that he admitted 65 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 6: he did it. 66 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 3: But he kind of nagged me a little bit, you know, just. 67 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 6: That the thought like, how could anybody really killed a mother, 68 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 6: you know, well, I mean, it wasn't anything that I 69 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 6: could go to a DA and said, look, I think 70 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 6: I made a mistake of something because I didn't. There 71 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 6: was nothing that I thought I did wrong. It just 72 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 6: bothered me to maybe maybe he was moll Tudor's you know, 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 6: it could be anything in it. It just troubled me 74 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 6: for a while. 75 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: Then a happy coincidence. Five or six years later, father 76 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: Frank talks to a friend who says he ran into 77 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: the father of the teenage murderer. Frank's friend tells him 78 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: the father believes his son killed his mother, and then 79 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: he says that his son was quote one bad fucking 80 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: kid unquote. 81 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 3: May feel better. I felt a lot better. 82 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: At the time. I didn't think much of it. I 83 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: was focused on cal But the teenager's case, that's the 84 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: one that would change Frank's life. 85 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: Oh it's yeah. I still haven't gotten over it. 86 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: From Orbid Media, this is Empire on Blood. The Director's 87 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: a story of murder, betrayal and a man who fought 88 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: the law for twenty years, and of a detective so 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: skilled at getting suspect as a talker that he was 90 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: considered a father Confessor, But how good was he really? 91 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: I'm Steve Fishman. Frank Vigiano loved being a cop. 92 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I loved it. I would never you know, 93 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,119 Speaker 6: front grow seats and best Show in Town. 94 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: I've talked to a bunch of cops from Father Frank's era. 95 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: The eighties and nineties in New York City, violent crime soared, 96 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: especially in the Bronx. It was terrible for citizens, but 97 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: if you were a certain kind of cop, it was 98 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: non stop excitement. Cops were the stars of the Best 99 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: Show in Town, which happened to be an action adventure show. 100 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: There were hand to hand fights in the street. Father 101 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: Frank got into one his first day on the job, shootouts, 102 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: car chases. I used to turn to my partners, remember 103 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: Detective Louis Scarcela from The Burden, and say, they give 104 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: us a shield, they give us a go, and they 105 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: give us a call. They'd say, go out and lock 106 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: a beer, guys, and then they pay us for it. 107 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: They paid us. I had the best job in the world. 108 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: Detective Frank Vigiano had similar thoughts. And then, of course 109 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: there was the appreciation citizens politicians, everyone counted on the 110 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: cops and judges and juries they believed cops implicitly, of 111 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: course they did. Cops were heroes back then. Not that 112 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: that had been Frank's dream. His dream was to be 113 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: a tugboat captain, though his family had charted another course. 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 6: My whole family really a restaurant in ball business, you know, 115 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 6: mom and pop kind of places. 116 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 8: No, not them big, and they struggled, you know. It 117 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 8: used to work seven days a week, six days a week, 118 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 8: ten twelve hours a day. And as a kid, I 119 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 8: had to help them, and I hated the business. 120 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: Out of high school, Frank Vigiano enlisted in the Marines. 121 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: One way to avoid the family business. Another was to 122 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: take the city's civil service tests. Once he got home, everybody. 123 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: Took the test just to take it. And I got 124 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: called and. 125 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: Frank was called by the New York City Police Department. 126 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: I said, this might be fun. 127 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: Vigiano rose through the ranks. Soon he was a sergeant 128 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: and boss of detectives in the four to seven. Then 129 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: he took a job with the Bronx DA. He was 130 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: deputy Chief Investigator, second in command of the investigations Department. 131 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: By then, father Frank had developed the techniques that would 132 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: serve him well finesse, not force. That's what he preached. 133 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: The finesse started the moment he got a suspect in 134 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: the cruiser. 135 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 3: Well, what I'll do is when I pick a guy 136 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 3: up a right, what I did? 137 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 9: Do it? 138 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 6: And you put him in a handcuffs, you get him 139 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 6: in a call. 140 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 3: Nine out of ten times, this guy has done more 141 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: than one thing. 142 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 8: Okay. 143 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: His big question, of course, is what did I do? 144 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: What did I do? 145 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 10: What did I do? 146 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: What did I do? 147 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 6: All I said, look, when we're going to station als, 148 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 6: we're gonna sit down, we're gonna talk about this. 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 3: You know, I explain everything to you. But before we 150 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: do that, I'm gonna give. 151 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 8: You him your rights. 152 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 6: And the first thing out of his mouth to be 153 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 6: is I know my rights, saw And I say, I know, 154 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 6: but I have to give it to you. 155 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 3: By the time we get to the station outs, he 156 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: wants to know what he's in there for. Time has elapsed. 157 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: He ain't thinking about his rights. 158 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: Father Frank starts the interrogation. Is if they both know 159 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: one thing. The suspect did the murder, and really what. 160 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: We here to talk about is why he did this? 161 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: Is there a reason? Maybe maybe this guy needed killing? 162 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 1: Maybe this guy needed killing. Don't you let cop talk. 163 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Frank believed that he understood people, understood what a harsh 164 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: environment made them do. Why are we talking about Father 165 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: Frank's approach because it will be crucial to the case 166 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: of the teenager convicted of murdering his mother, the case 167 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: that nagged at Frank. Something dramatic is going to happen 168 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: in that case, and it's Frank's techniques that will be blamed. 169 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: And that's why I want to spend a minute on 170 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: Dwight and Frank's work in the Calvin Bari case. That's 171 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: where we first learned about Father Frank's investigative approach and 172 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: approach that's going to get him into trouble. With the 173 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: Calvin Barre case. Father Frank believed he knew exactly what 174 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: really happened. 175 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 8: I see about almost like. 176 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 10: I mind. 177 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: Remember Dwight was now saying that he did the murders. 178 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: He didn't do it. 179 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 10: I did. 180 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: But when Dwight says that cow didn't do the murder, Frank, 181 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: here's something else. 182 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 6: Nobody saying that. 183 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: To say, this tape is hard to make out. What 184 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: Frank's saying is that nobody is confessing to a murder 185 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: he didn't commit. 186 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, this isn't the business of his hand that 187 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 3: he wants. 188 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: This isn't coming out of the goodness of his heart. 189 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: That's bullshit. No way he was buying that. What Frank 190 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: bought was that Cow threatened Dwight coerced the confession through 191 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: threats of violence. Father Frank did get Dwight back on track. 192 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: Dwight went to court and again testified that Cow shot 193 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: the brothers. Remember, Dwight admitted to me that Cow didn't 194 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: do the murders. And an eyewitness who came forward twenty 195 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: five years after the crime testified she saw who shot 196 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: the victims. She was sitting on a stoop a few 197 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: feet away. She said it was Dwight who pulled the trigger. 198 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: But Father Frank still insists Cow did the murder and 199 00:10:59,200 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: got away with it. 200 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: I always told you he was the smartest guy in 201 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: the room. 202 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: Thinking about Col's case, it seems to me that Father 203 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: Frank was awfully certain about something that just wasn't born 204 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: out by the evidence. It drew me back to the 205 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: case that had once nagged at him. The sixteen year 206 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: old convicted of murdering his mother. A bit of background 207 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: on the day of the murder, the teenager, his name 208 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: is Hugh Burton, said he'd gone to his girlfriend's after school. 209 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: He comes home and finds his mother stabbed to death 210 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: in her bed. Two days later, Hugh, a skinny teenager 211 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: wearing a Mets baseball cap, is brought up to the 212 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: precinct under the guise of taking a lie detector test. 213 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: Frank's eyzes up the kid. The detectives don't think Hugh 214 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: is as distraught as he ought to be. They skipped 215 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,119 Speaker 1: the lie detector test instead. According to the Bronx District Attorney, 216 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: Frank and two partners put Hugh in an interrogation room. 217 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: Interrogations weren't taped back then. Hugh says he asked to 218 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: talk to his father, and his father testified that he'd 219 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: asked to talk to his son, but both of them 220 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: were told no need. Hugh was headed home soon. That's 221 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: not what happened. Hugh says that the detectives talked to 222 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: him for six hours a minor alone. This is one 223 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: of his lawyers, and. 224 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 4: We're sally shocked by the fact that he had been 225 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 4: interrogated constantly and relentlessly. 226 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 6: One of the things I did and I used to 227 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 6: give a less than a training lesson methods of interrogation 228 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 6: and when you talk to a guy and you're trying 229 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 6: to get a confession on a murder or something to 230 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 6: say to get a guy to come in and say, yeah, 231 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 6: I go. 232 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: That don't really happen. 233 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: Frank came in with props. I'd have a folder, he'd 234 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: have the suspect's picture laid out on the folder. 235 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 3: Maybe nothing in the boulder, but it looks like there was. 236 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 6: I want to lead him to believe that I know 237 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 6: everything about him, exactly. 238 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 3: What happened here. I know everything about him and being. 239 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 6: At bullshit, and I want him to have that perception. 240 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 6: But I'm not saying anything to him because I may 241 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 6: not know anything. I mean, there's a certain amount of 242 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 6: trickery that you're legally allowed to use. 243 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: It is legal to deceive a suspect. Still, Hugh maintained 244 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: he was innocent. Frank, though, had other ideas, and. 245 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 9: In Hugh's particular case, there were suggestions that the killing 246 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 9: was an accident and not something premeditated, and because it 247 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 9: was an accident, the system would treat him with leniency. 248 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: That's lawyer Steve Drissen, who represented Hugh in his four 249 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: to forty appeal. 250 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 9: He was told that he would be processed in juvenile 251 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 9: court and that his father would be able to pick 252 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 9: him up a few days later. 253 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: Drisen also said that, according to Hugh, he was informed 254 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: in a friendly way that he was guilty of statutory rape. 255 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: His girlfriend was under age, the implication if he cooperated 256 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: that wouldn't be a problem. Frank's account is that in 257 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: the interrogation room, Hugh denied killing his mother again and again, 258 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: but when Hugh walked out of the interrogation room accompanied 259 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: by the cops, he spontaneously said, I want to tell 260 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: you the truth. They walked him back into the interrogation 261 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: room and Hugh confessed. 262 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 9: They kind of pushed h over the edge. 263 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: The stabbing death of Hugh's mother was a horrible crime. 264 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: Even with nearly two thousand murders a year, it stood 265 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: out and cracking the getting the perpetrator that was greeted 266 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: with headlines. Frank was in the press talking about how 267 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: the kid killed his mother for a couple hundred dollars. 268 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 6: And it made it look like she was raped and murdered, 269 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 6: pulling her clothes off and forcing the door open. 270 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: In the house. 271 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 6: Make a long story short, he admitted to me and 272 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 6: one of the detectives a crack. He wanted money, she 273 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 6: wudn't give him money, and he stabbed her, and that 274 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 6: he that he did do it. 275 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: To Hugh's attorneys, the wrongdoing was obvious and it wasn't 276 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: done by their client. Hugh recanted his confession almost immediately 277 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: after leaving the precinct to the lawyers. The wrongdoers were 278 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: the cops. 279 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 4: The confession was was kind of tailored to what the 280 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 4: detectives believed say, decided that Huey Burton was the most 281 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 4: likely suspect. Not only did they extract a confession from 282 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 4: him using you know, classic techniques. If they largely discredited, 283 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 4: they isolated him from anybody who might be able to help, 284 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 4: and then they ignored much better evidence. They would look 285 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 4: for more evidence to corroborate their belief and his guilt, 286 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 4: but that's all that they did. They were convinced that 287 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 4: they were in the right. 288 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 9: Is that Frank? Yes? 289 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: Is that Frank? I found father Frank to ask him 290 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: if it was possible that you made a false confession. 291 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: I'm not sure which confession you're talking about, the one 292 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: the one that he made to detectives, the ones that 293 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: he made on a videotape to the district attorney, or 294 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: the two we made to the parole voice. 295 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: Frank's point being that Hugh admitted to the murder many times. 296 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: Well, then why would I confess to killing my mother 297 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: if I didn't? Come on, let's get real to me. 298 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: It seems you might ask the question the other way around. 299 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: Why would I confess to killing my mother if I 300 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: did kill her? In any case? I reminded Frank what 301 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: he'd said to me half a dozen years ago on 302 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: that boat. 303 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 10: So what made you doubt it all those years back then? 304 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: He didn't remember it exactly the same way. 305 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 9: I didn't doubt it. 306 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 10: You told me you did. It was the one case 307 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 10: that you would like felt a little bit unsure of, no. 308 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 2: I thought, But I never doubted that he didn't. 309 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: But lawyers were involved and the case was getting attention. 310 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: Memory is a tricky thing. I went back to the 311 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: old tape from the boat. Sure made it sound like 312 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: Detective Vigiano wasn't sure. 313 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 6: It just bothered me that maybe maybe he was moltudas, 314 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 6: maybe this kid is just wacky. And he said he 315 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 6: didn't he detected. 316 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: To protect somebody else. 317 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 3: You know, it could be anything in it. 318 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 6: It just troubled me for a while, and I thought, like, 319 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 6: how could anybody really kill the mother? 320 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 10: You know? 321 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: Uo Burton's defense was led by the famous civil rights 322 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: attorney William Kunstler. Kunstler's protege was Ron Koby. At trial, 323 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: Kooby remembers that counseler took aim at the confession. It 324 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: was the heart of the prosecution case. There was no DNA, 325 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: no murder weapon, no eye witnesses, and according to one 326 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: of his lawyers, Hugh had an alibi. He was in 327 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: school during the day and after school at his girlfriend's house. 328 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: This is Kooby. 329 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 4: Counselor came to the conclusion that we should try to 330 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 4: put on a false concession. Expert. This was brand new. 331 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 4: There was no law particularly to support it. Out the 332 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 4: best of my knowledge, it had not been done before, 333 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 4: and everyone at that time believed that no matter what 334 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 4: was done to them, short of physical torture, they would 335 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 4: never confess to a crime they didn't commit. 336 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: In court, comes to tried to introduce evidence that h 337 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: had been psychologically coerced into confessing. Quby says the judge 338 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: refused to allow it. Hugh Burton was found guilty of 339 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: murdering his mother, and when. 340 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 6: He got convicted, he fell on his knees and he 341 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 6: looked at his father and he said, I didn't kill mommy. 342 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: I didn't kill mommy. He kind of nagged me a 343 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 3: little bit, you know, just that the thought like, how 344 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 3: could anybody really kill their mother? 345 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of people started to have doubts 346 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: about Frank's cases. It began when a judge overturned Col's conviction. 347 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: Frank blamed that reversal on the DA's office. 348 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 10: I think they came over about letting people out of 349 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 10: jail and putting them in jail. In there some new 350 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 10: administration there. 351 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: It is true the DA's office did seem interested in 352 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: letting people out of jail, people that Frank had put in. 353 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 11: We're waiting for District Attorney Clark. 354 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: It's twenty eighteen and Darcel Clark, the Bronx District attorney, 355 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: is addressing the press outside a courtroom. 356 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 7: It's a day that mister Burton, I know, has long 357 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,959 Speaker 7: waited for and I'm pleased that we are part of 358 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 7: the unburdening him of his conviction. In the brutal killing 359 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 7: of his mother back in nineteen eighty nine. Mister Burton 360 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 7: served nineteen years in prison and today his name has 361 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 7: been cleared and so now he can continue with the 362 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 7: rest of his life. 363 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: A judge will make the final ruling, but Clark's office 364 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: has investigated the conviction and is now on its own 365 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: agreeing that Hugh Burton's conviction should be overturned. 366 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 7: I'm pleased that we were able to help restore his dignity. 367 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: Clark's decision was based on the confession. She said that 368 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: it was obtained using psychological coercive techniques. Kooby and Counselor 369 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: hadn't been able to get expert testimony about false confessions 370 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: into the record, but it was now widely accepted that trauma, 371 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: youth and isolation can produce unreliable confessions in court. An 372 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: assistant district attorney from Darcelth Clark's office addresses the judge. 373 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 12: Based on this new expert information and based on the 374 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 12: particular inconsistency and contradition in the proof, including the physical 375 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 12: evidence that was at the scene of the Bronx, the 376 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 12: Bronx district attorney no longer has confidence that mister Bourbon's 377 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 12: confession is reliable. 378 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: In the courtroom, the judge overturned his conviction. This is 379 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: Hugh Burton. It just felt like a weight was officially 380 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: lifted to the DA. Frank's confession techniques appeared less clever 381 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: than they once had. The trickery, though legal, seemed designed 382 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: to entrap a defendant, especially a traumatized teenager like Hugh 383 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: had been. When I reached Father Frank by phone, he 384 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: wasn't buying any of it. 385 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 2: I could see if there was new evidence, if there 386 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 2: was DNA, and trust me, they searched for all of that, but. 387 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: The DA said she had new evidence. It was the 388 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: science of false confessions. Hughes lawyers demanded further investigation of 389 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: the cases where Father Frank and other cops had gotten 390 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: confessions so. 391 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 11: Much pain, so much injustice for so many where there 392 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 11: is a pattern of psychologically coherced confessions from these officers 393 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 11: in the forty seven precincts. We have to see if 394 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 11: there are others based on these coercive techniques who we 395 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 11: have not found. 396 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: At the time, DA Clark agreed to reopen third thirty 397 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: one cases, including many where Father Frank could help secure confession. 398 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: And twenty of those cases I gave them. 399 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 10: When you say I gave them, you mean you pointed 400 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 10: out to them. 401 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: Yes, I facted them all the information on it. 402 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: Some of the lawyers are sure there are other false 403 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: confessions among them, and. 404 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 10: So whatever happened. Did you ever hear what happened with them? 405 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were looking at it for years and they 406 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: never found one case that was any issue, And they 407 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 2: never had one complaint from any money griven attorney that 408 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 2: would love to have jumped on this thing and made 409 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: money on cases that they could reverse. 410 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: The DA spokesperson said the office is open to investigating 411 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: any credible complaint of wrongful conviction, but she said there 412 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: haven't been any. 413 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 3: Not even a phone call. 414 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 9: Right, that's the facts. 415 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: The DA didn't blame Frank or the other detectives. 416 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 13: Listen, what happened back then. What they did was not 417 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 13: necessarily wrong. That is the way things were done then. 418 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 13: The science and things have developed over the years so 419 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 13: that now we know that those techniques are not good 420 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 13: to produce reliable confessions. 421 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 7: But now we know better. 422 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: That should have been some consolation to Frank. 423 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: I think it's just words. 424 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: He didn't see it that way. 425 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: I don't think any he's done any differently. 426 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: To Frank, it sure felt like he was being blamed. 427 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 2: So it's very embarrassing and it's very angry. You leave 428 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: the police department, you leave with two things, your reputation 429 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: and a little pension. 430 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 9: Yeah, your name is everything. 431 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 10: So Frank, how do you get over something like this? 432 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 10: You don't. 433 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 2: You don't, especially somebody like me that I never had 434 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: even a complaint in forty years of law enforcement. 435 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 10: I never had a complaint. 436 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: I never had a command discipline. You know, the command 437 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: discipline is it's a minor offense that you might get 438 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: as in law enforcement. You know, showed up, you know, lead. 439 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 2: I think I reported six twice in twenty five years 440 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: and the NYBD and both of them were line of 441 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: duty injuries. I mean, I'm a recipient of the Medal 442 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 2: of Valor. I mean, you know, I none of that 443 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 2: means anything, but that's just famous. 444 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: And here was the most awful thing for Frank. Frank said, 445 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: the DA got the fundamental facts wrong. Frank tells me 446 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 1: he had nothing to do with the confession of Hugh Burton. 447 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: I didn't elicited anything from him. 448 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 10: Oh, it was a difference. You didn't take the confession. 449 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 9: No, they try. 450 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: To make it look like I did, but no, I didn't. 451 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: I was a supervisors. 452 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 10: But you you did talk to him in the precinct, right, No? No, wait, 453 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 10: so you never sat down with Burton? No, oh, he 454 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 10: says they. 455 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 9: I know, I know. 456 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: So this shocks me. I mean the DA mentioned Frank 457 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: Viggiano by name, and Hugh Burton testified that he was 458 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: interrogated by Sergeant Vigiano. Maybe Hugh confused names. It was late, 459 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: he was traumatized. But then I checked the transcript on 460 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: the witness stand. One of the detectives questioning you is 461 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: asked who else was present in the room. He names 462 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: Detective Vigiano, but Frank, he insists, he never had a 463 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: conversation with you, And so I went back to that 464 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: old interview tape. 465 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 6: Make a long story short. He admitted to me and 466 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 6: one of the detectives. 467 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: He's talking about you. 468 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 6: That he did do it, and that he sold a crack. 469 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 6: He wanted money, she wudn't give him money, and he 470 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 6: staffed Well. 471 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: It seems that Frank has told the story different ways 472 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: at different times, but at one point he certainly put 473 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: himself in the middle of it, just as the DA said. 474 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: One more thing I wanted to know from Frank about 475 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: that secondhand information he said he'd received from a friend 476 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: who had supposedly heard from Hugh's father, the information that 477 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: Hugh was a terrible fucking kid. At his release, Hugh 478 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: offered a different view of his father. 479 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 5: And what he taught a lot about patience and perseverance 480 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 5: and pressing all My dad gave a lot of those 481 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 5: things to. 482 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: Me, even while I was in prison. 483 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 5: Every facility that I was in, that he was always there, 484 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 5: always made short that I had, and that I never 485 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 5: wanted for anything. I never knew a better example of 486 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 5: a parent. 487 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 1: In Mines. 488 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 9: His father basically died penniless. 489 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: This is the attorney Drisen. 490 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 9: Because he spent a fortune on lawyers to try to 491 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 9: get Hugh exonerated. So he was incredibly close with his father, 492 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 9: and he watched his father go from this vital human 493 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 9: being to a shell of himself. It's one of the 494 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 9: most heartbreaking cases I've ever been around. 495 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: I asked Frank if he believed that this father would 496 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: call his son a fucking bad kid. 497 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 10: Because the father ends up kind of devoted to the 498 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 10: kid and the rest well this is his. 499 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 9: Son, man. 500 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 10: Yeah, I an lawyers and trying to get him out 501 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 10: and everything. 502 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 9: Of course, when you do that for your son, well. 503 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 10: Not if I knew he was guilty. I think, I 504 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 10: mean I believe I would have. 505 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I probably would do that too. Your kid is 506 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: there's always your kid, for better or worse. But still 507 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: it's clear that father Frank can get things wrong. And frankly, 508 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: the science has outdistanced Father Frank. When I talked to cops, 509 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: especially from the crime ridden era of the eighties and 510 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: nineties in New York, they describe getting confessions as if 511 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: it's a mono, a mono kind of thing, like personality combat. 512 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: Who will break first. The other day was Wrongful Conviction 513 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: Day and I was in a community center in East 514 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: New York listening to the head of the Brooklyn Conviction 515 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: Review Unit, which is one of the most respected in 516 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: the country. In ten years, they've overturned forty convictions. The 517 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: chief of that unit said something provocative that night, something 518 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: counterintuitive for someone like me and probably for you. Would 519 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: you confess to killing your mother if you didn't do it? 520 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: Doesn't make sense right in our guts justice in Franks. 521 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: But the chief of the conviction Review Units said that 522 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: it happens all the time. In his experience, a leading 523 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: cause of wrongful convictions is false confessions. His view is 524 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: that by lying, pressuring, making false promises to a suspect, 525 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: you are more likely to get a false confession, especially 526 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: when kids are being interrogated alone. The days of believing 527 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: that good detectives have a crystal ball in their guts, 528 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: those days are gone, and with them, so are a 529 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: bunch of convictions from the eighties and nineties. And it's 530 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 1: for the best intuition isn't always right. The wrong people 531 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: do go to prison. I'm going to give the last 532 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: word in this series to a wrongfully convicted man whose 533 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: confession was found to be false. This is Hugh Burton's 534 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: advice to others done wrong by the justice system. 535 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 5: Don't give them, don't stop, continue to fight, don't lay down. 536 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 5: The moment you lay down, that's when it's over. 537 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: The director's cut of Empire on Blood is produced by 538 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: Emil Klein. Austin Smith is our associate producer and production coordinator. 539 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: Bactchecking by Ryan Alderman, and our theme song, The Lonely 540 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: King is by Mister Landing. Special thanks to Andy Bowers, 541 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: who championed the original production at Patterbin. I'm Steve Fishman, 542 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: your host. 543 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 9: M h it's common cold. 544 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 7: Mm hmm. 545 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 8: A king the bill two blood leaves the king longly. 546 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: We had the burdens of your sittings, and then only 547 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: then we have the blurred line between friends and fold. 548 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 5: The last words you hear, it's common cold. 549 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 7: M hm 550 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 4: Hm