Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast. So today it's my great
Speaker 1: pleasure to have doctor Michael Gervais on the show. Michael
Speaker 1: is a high performance psychologist who works in the trenches
Speaker 1: of high stakes and environments. He hosts the podcasts Finding
Speaker 1: Mastery and works with the Seattle Seahawks on their head game.
Speaker 1: He even has been called their quote secret weapon. Hey,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being on the podcast today, Mike. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good, Thank you so much. I'm not sure about
Speaker 1: all that secret weapon stuff. And you know, it's like, really,
Speaker 1: the Seattle Seahawks is an organization of many people and
Speaker 1: highly talented people doing you know, a lot of different jobs,
Speaker 1: and it's such a complicated organization you know in football
Speaker 1: and pro sports, that there's no secret weapon really, is
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say of course, I was trying
Speaker 1: to be dramatic. I read an article about I read
Speaker 1: an article where they described you as such, but like
Speaker 1: to be fair to you, like there's a unique niche
Speaker 1: you have here and what you bring to this is
Speaker 1: I phrased it as head game. But you know that
Speaker 1: is a unique contribution to the team, right, Well, I
Speaker 1: would say that as humans, there really are only three
Speaker 1: things that we can train. And we can train our craft,
Speaker 1: which most of us that are interested in pursuing, you know,
Speaker 1: mastery of craft or excellence in some domain understand that,
Speaker 1: and that's how we spend so much time training our craft.
Speaker 1: We can train our body, and in sports that's where
Speaker 1: majority of the time is spent training craft and training body.
Speaker 1: But as humans, we can only train three things, which
Speaker 1: leaves the mind. So you can train your craft, your body,
Speaker 1: and your mind. And I you know, world class athletes
Speaker 1: and coaches and performers across many different domains all nod
Speaker 1: their head to how important the psychology of excellence is
Speaker 1: and the mental part of the game, if you will.
Speaker 1: And so it's not that it's some secret, it really isn't.
Speaker 1: It's making the complicated science of psychology and making that
Speaker 1: understandable and then doable from a training standpoint. And that's
Speaker 1: kind of how I think about taking all the insights
Speaker 1: and wisdoms and science based information from people in both
Speaker 1: of our fields for a long time and then figuring
Speaker 1: out ways to be able to make it simple and trainable. No,
Speaker 1: that sounds really great, and I totally empathize with the
Speaker 1: idea that it's not easy taking the complex science and
Speaker 1: applying it to such a practical realm, or a lot
Speaker 1: of practical realms apply it to. Let's pick some of
Speaker 1: this science and let's let's like, you know, nerd out
Speaker 1: a little bit about some of it and how you
Speaker 1: go about translating something. So let's see which one should
Speaker 1: we pick. Why don't we start with grit because that's
Speaker 1: you know, there's already connection there between the Seattle Seahawks
Speaker 1: and angel duckwors right. Yes, So that's a It's a
Speaker 1: great story in and of itself, is that coach Carol
Speaker 1: saw one of Angelia duck Horse videos online and said
Speaker 1: this is phenomenal, and he said this is there was
Speaker 1: one line on it, and there it was like a
Speaker 1: prediction line that she had that grit is the number
Speaker 1: one determining factor for success. And so he said, okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's find more about this, because grit as a word,
Speaker 1: as a concept is an important concept. You know that
Speaker 1: that's a and I'm not talking about the scientific part
Speaker 1: of it yet. I'm just talking about the word, what
Speaker 1: the word stands for for so many people being gritty,
Speaker 1: doing the gritty work, right, And so there's a there's
Speaker 1: a thought about doing difficult work that it immediately conjures up.
Speaker 1: But that's not what the science, you know, is really about.
Speaker 1: And even according to Angela, doctor Duckworth, and so he
Speaker 1: calls Angela and then there's a little bit of time
Speaker 1: lapse between they before they got back with each other,
Speaker 1: and then when Coach Carol looked up the video again,
Speaker 1: that line was gone. It was removed. So they had
Speaker 1: a fun little conversation about that. And yes, she came
Speaker 1: up and visited us. And it's been it's been wonderful
Speaker 1: to hear from the kind of the horse's mouth, if
Speaker 1: you will, not that doctor Duckworth is a horse, but that,
Speaker 1: you know, colloquial saying that she's she's got such insights
Speaker 1: about how grit works. And there's great controversy in the field.
Speaker 1: Not great. There's controversy in the field about like what
Speaker 1: is it because it's a new idea and we just
Speaker 1: learned so much from her. Yeah, absolutely, and she's a
Speaker 1: friend of mine and I respect her work a lot.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about how that gets translated though. So on
Speaker 1: the one hand, so the science shows that there are
Speaker 1: these self report questtionnaires that measure your consistency of interest
Speaker 1: and your perseverance towards a goal or long term it's
Speaker 1: like you know, long term stamina, so to speak. And
Speaker 1: people who report on these questionnaires high scores. It does
Speaker 1: tend to predict high performance in certain areas and high
Speaker 1: expertise expertise development. How do you take those kinds of
Speaker 1: findings and then try to strengthen grit among players? Okay, great,
Speaker 1: So first of all, let's let's be clear that grit,
Speaker 1: the way that we talk about grit or think about grit,
Speaker 1: it is probably no different than your insights, which is
Speaker 1: passion and perseverance for long term goals. So we're looking,
Speaker 1: let's just deconstruct that. And so that's how you make
Speaker 1: anything applied, right, deconstruct what the science is suggesting. And
Speaker 1: if the deconstruction is that we've got three variables there.
Speaker 1: There's probably more, but at least three on the surface,
Speaker 1: which is passion, perseverance, and long term goals. So the
Speaker 1: first thing that we do as an organization is we
Speaker 1: want to see if players have grit. So part of
Speaker 1: the selection process that our general manager and scouts do
Speaker 1: a fantastic job is figuring out the personality, figuring out
Speaker 1: the whole picture of anybody that they're going to bring
Speaker 1: into the Seattle Seahawks, and grit is one of those
Speaker 1: characteristics that we find to be valuable enough to screen for.
Speaker 1: And so what we're looking for is an understanding of
Speaker 1: their passion and understanding of their ability to persevere, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, playing the long game and sticking with it
Speaker 1: for a long time even when it's difficult. And then
Speaker 1: do they have long term goals, like do they have
Speaker 1: clarity about even what those are? And so then we'll
Speaker 1: wait those three variables, along with a couple other variables
Speaker 1: that surround grit to get like almost a grit makeup
Speaker 1: for somebody. And we're not doing it on the subjective questionnaire,
Speaker 1: and we're doing it through observation over time, interviewing people
Speaker 1: around them that know them, whether it's high school or
Speaker 1: college coaches, family members. We're curious about grit, So we
Speaker 1: think about it a lot, we talk about it a lot,
Speaker 1: and we're trying to create it almost like a grit
Speaker 1: profile for person as one of the many metrics for selection.
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it almost would
Speaker 1: be absurd to ask all aspiring Seattle Seahawks to fill
Speaker 1: out the self report questionnaire. I would I would fill
Speaker 1: it if it would get me on a spot in
Speaker 1: the NFL. I would. I would check all fives. That's right,
Speaker 1: five five five five, Yeah, of course, And so that's
Speaker 1: you know, So that's why we're not doing it that way.
Speaker 1: But then then the concept can you train grit? Can
Speaker 1: you amplify it? Can you cultivate it? And certainly an
Speaker 1: environment has much to do with with teasing out or
Speaker 1: celebrating or amplifying whatever the right word is for the
Speaker 1: concept of grit. So culture does matter. And if the
Speaker 1: culture has a prevailing thought that when it's hard, we
Speaker 1: do something else, then we're probably not going to be
Speaker 1: able to train grit. But if the prevailing if the
Speaker 1: prevailing message is we do difficult things, that's what shapes
Speaker 1: us that's what makes us. Let's stay in it. And
Speaker 1: that is part of the culture that Coach Carroll has
Speaker 1: created with his coaches and organization is that grid is valued.
Speaker 1: We talk about it, think about it, and we demonstrate
Speaker 1: when grid is being expressed on a regular basis. And
Speaker 1: I'd say that, you know, in fairness, the selection team
Speaker 1: of finding people that are gritty, by the time you
Speaker 1: get to the Seattle Seahawks, you already have majority of
Speaker 1: people already have it. So then the job of training
Speaker 1: it is much easier for us because they already came
Speaker 1: into the door with it. You know. Yeah, they're almost
Speaker 1: gritty about increasing their grit. Yeah, one thousand percent, not
Speaker 1: for the sake of in and of it. It's not
Speaker 1: because they want to be grittier. It's because they have
Speaker 1: passion that is fueling the hard work and the perseverance.
Speaker 1: And it's the passion that's the one. It's not the
Speaker 1: perseverance like doing difficult things. Okay, that's like step one,
Speaker 1: Maybe that's step two, because step one is like do
Speaker 1: you have a vision of what the future could look
Speaker 1: like for you? A long term goal? But it's the
Speaker 1: passion that's the one. No, I'm totally with you there.
Speaker 1: I I have great appreciation for the passion aspect, and
Speaker 1: I'd like to unpack that more like what does like
Speaker 1: what do you think is the common sort of like
Speaker 1: if you pull back all the layers really get beneath
Speaker 1: the surface. These NFL players, what is their passion? What
Speaker 1: is that passion? Is it, you know, to dominate, to
Speaker 1: win an award like a prestigious public recognition? Is it fame?
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it purely intrinsic like a love of
Speaker 1: the game, And of course it probably differents from person
Speaker 1: to person, is the obvious answer. But I should love
Speaker 1: your your you your your hand on the pull, so
Speaker 1: to speak. I'd love to hear what your thoughts aren't
Speaker 1: like really like, what is that passion there? Okay, so
Speaker 1: we're talking about intrinsic and extrinsic rewards or drive, right,
Speaker 1: we're talking about the for a motivational construct. So yes,
Speaker 1: it's both of those. And now if we just follow
Speaker 1: the science, the science will say things like, you know,
Speaker 1: we want, we want the internal motivation. Internal drive is
Speaker 1: more valuable if you will, for long term goals than
Speaker 1: excuse me, then external drive. Now, the truth is that
Speaker 1: people on the ground that are doing the difficult stuff
Speaker 1: on the world stage that are world leading. There's both.
Speaker 1: And what we're looking for though is imagine scale one
Speaker 1: to ten on internal drive and scale one to ten
Speaker 1: on external drive. What I'm particularly looking for is I
Speaker 1: would love to see a ten on one scale and
Speaker 1: a nine on the other, oh, which which yeah, obviously
Speaker 1: internal drive being higher. And the reason that we want
Speaker 1: we want to you know, bank on the internal drive
Speaker 1: is because as soon as somebody gets the external reward,
Speaker 1: whether it's attention or fame or money or you know,
Speaker 1: recognition in some kind of way or whatever, as soon
Speaker 1: as they get that thing, then you have to help
Speaker 1: them recreate a new thing to chase after. And that
Speaker 1: becomes challenging, That becomes like they got to continually grease
Speaker 1: that wheel, as opposed to helping people get to the
Speaker 1: internal drive and celebrating the long game for what it
Speaker 1: feels like to grow, to be tested, to be in
Speaker 1: the amphitheater, to know that you're going to come up short,
Speaker 1: but still let it go anyway, you know. And what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about is like taking shots and risks and
Speaker 1: putting yourself into the unknown where most people most people
Speaker 1: are so terrified of the unknown, that they play it safe,
Speaker 1: they play it small. We've got a mental condition called
Speaker 1: anxiety where you know, fifteen to thirty percent of Americans
Speaker 1: suffer from anxiety, which is a chronic you know, I
Speaker 1: know you know this, But like the thought that the
Speaker 1: future is so scary that I'm going to panic in
Speaker 1: such a way now that it changes my physiology. It's
Speaker 1: uncomfortable to be inside of me. And that is essentially
Speaker 1: what anxiety is, both whether it's cognitive or somatic anxiety
Speaker 1: technical terms for thinking anxiety or feeling anxiety. And that
Speaker 1: what we can learn from those that are on the
Speaker 1: world stage doing difficult things is that the race the
Speaker 1: unknown and they lean into it. They lean into it
Speaker 1: because they know that that's where they become who they're
Speaker 1: meant to become. And so that's so we want that
Speaker 1: we want to light up the passion to embrace the unknown,
Speaker 1: to lean into it. And in that space, literally the
Speaker 1: space of the unknown, that's where we figure out who
Speaker 1: we really are. And in those moments is when our
Speaker 1: inner dialogue becomes so loud, it is so clear one day,
Speaker 1: one day, Scott, that we'll be able I think to
Speaker 1: be able to like hear thoughts. We'll be able to
Speaker 1: see thoughts maybe maybe. And it's in that, it's in
Speaker 1: those moments of uncertainty where that that voice is the
Speaker 1: loudest inside of us. Oh well, you're saying such great stuff, Michael,
Speaker 1: I just I'm just making it up. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: we all are, right, I mean, but it's still it's
Speaker 1: still great stuff. So, by the way, Michael or Mike,
Speaker 1: what would you prefer? Oh yeah, it does not matter. Like, Okay,
Speaker 1: my friends call me Mike, so call me Mike. Oh yeah, hey,
Speaker 1: we're friends. So so look, Mike, I like a lot
Speaker 1: of things are saying and when I say, I know
Speaker 1: in response you were saying it's it's it's it's not
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it pretentiously. I'm saying it like right on, brother,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah yeah sure. Like like like I I think,
Speaker 1: so what this is good and I and I appreciate
Speaker 1: you giving me this opportunity to really discuss at this
Speaker 1: level of granularity this stuff. So I would say, embracing
Speaker 1: the unknown is something separate from grit. So obviously you
Speaker 1: wouldn't say great is the only thing that's important. You
Speaker 1: would say there are other things that are important. Well,
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, hold on, I think that. So
Speaker 1: let me let me see if I can make the
Speaker 1: stitch there. It's the embracing the unknown that gets in
Speaker 1: the way of passion. So now we're back into Now
Speaker 1: we're back to grit, so embrace. Wait, let me say
Speaker 1: that they're better those that struggle with embracing the unknown,
Speaker 1: that their system, their their internal system becomes fit, tagued
Speaker 1: and scared. And so those are the two things that
Speaker 1: get in the way. Or it's like the heavy blanket
Speaker 1: that covers the fire of passion. So passion is that
Speaker 1: inner fire, and it's fatigue and fear of the unknown,
Speaker 1: of not being good enough, of coming up short, of
Speaker 1: letting others down, of looking stupid. It's that that gets
Speaker 1: in the way of passion. And that's why passion is
Speaker 1: I think. I think passion is the tougher not to
Speaker 1: crack on grit. Oh, definitely, But I would say there's
Speaker 1: great value, So I think what you're saying is right.
Speaker 1: And I think there's also great value to not be reductionistic,
Speaker 1: to separate different constructs. So I don't think that. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, I study something personality, trade openness to experience
Speaker 1: which I don't think that it's reduced to grit, but
Speaker 1: I like the idea that one can fuel the other
Speaker 1: that I really like that idea. So, but I also
Speaker 1: think they can be at odds sometimes. And so I mean,
Speaker 1: what do you have about the situations where someone like
Speaker 1: a player is really high in embracing the unknown and
Speaker 1: really is curious to like voraciously curious about questioning the
Speaker 1: coach about understanding every aspect of the game, and that
Speaker 1: gets in the way of their single minded grit towards
Speaker 1: one specific aspect of the game. What do you do
Speaker 1: with that seeming tension, Because I do think there is
Speaker 1: that tension sometimes it's so funny because you're right, and
Speaker 1: that's rare, believe it or not, that is rare. Interesting,
Speaker 1: it's not rare in your mind or my mind, because
Speaker 1: we like to think about things, not that athletes don't think,
Speaker 1: but if we're like to create some sort of scales
Speaker 1: about us and risk takers in dangerous environments, let's say,
Speaker 1: let's like amplify it out right that they are the
Speaker 1: doers and we're the studiers of the doers, and so
Speaker 1: there is a difference in the way that they approach
Speaker 1: they approach doing is that they are able to lock
Speaker 1: in and really bite down or sit down, as we'd
Speaker 1: like to say, in the moment. And so study people
Speaker 1: that study it and research it and want to understand it,
Speaker 1: we ask more questions. Not that they don't ask questions,
Speaker 1: but their questions are to help them be able to
Speaker 1: sit down and really drop their weight in the present
Speaker 1: moment where people like you know scientists or applied scientists
Speaker 1: are thinking about how does this all work and how
Speaker 1: does it make sense? So the hardest thing is to
Speaker 1: help the seeker to know when to not seek. That's
Speaker 1: a really tough thing to do. And I will say
Speaker 1: that most people in professional sports are better at the
Speaker 1: rest of the world, even maybe that's such a bold
Speaker 1: statement at being able to turn off that questioning mind
Speaker 1: and drop into the doing. Yeah, And I mean, the
Speaker 1: the obvious idea to talk about here is mindfulness. And
Speaker 1: I know you've done mindfulness training with the players, right.
Speaker 1: Mindfulness is just a you know, it's like such a
Speaker 1: foundationally important human concept, like yes, if we're if we're not,
Speaker 1: And there's a zeitgeist right now about mindfulness and it's
Speaker 1: part of me is like nauseated by it. And part
Speaker 1: of me is excited about it, and part of me
Speaker 1: is like really concerned about like the wisdom that mindfulness
Speaker 1: can bring. And if we're I'm hearing phrases like hacking
Speaker 1: mindfulness and I oh, I hate that it's hacking anything
Speaker 1: is a problem for me. Yeah. Yeah. So so that
Speaker 1: being said is like, yes, mindfulness is at the center
Speaker 1: because the two most important parts of mindfulness is increased
Speaker 1: awareness and the second part is revealing inside and wisdom.
Speaker 1: Now that's a Those are beautiful concepts with a very
Speaker 1: simple approach that is not easy to do, and it
Speaker 1: requires people to start over a thousand times, you know,
Speaker 1: in three minutes. You know, it's a constant starting over
Speaker 1: process to come back to now, to come back to
Speaker 1: now again. And we can get into the tactics and
Speaker 1: the weeds if you want. But you know, yes, mindfulness
Speaker 1: is at the center of what has been an accelerant
Speaker 1: for for me, and so I love talking about it
Speaker 1: and sharing it. Yeah me too, man I I just
Speaker 1: recently finished an eight week Mindful of Stress based reduction
Speaker 1: course and it's helped me greatly with just having mental clarity,
Speaker 1: and I mean it's it's very you know, clear, clear,
Speaker 1: that like, that's someone in that kind of high stakes.
Speaker 1: Like you said, they're in it. You know they're in it.
Speaker 1: They're in the moment when you're on the field and
Speaker 1: you're like passing the ball. You can't be like I'm
Speaker 1: very curious about you know, you know, like you can't
Speaker 1: really consciously rationally deliberate too much in that moment. So
Speaker 1: you have to really kind of like increase that awareness.
Speaker 1: And you said the other thing is wisdom. I think
Speaker 1: another thing which probably we could fold under wisdom, but
Speaker 1: is that is non judgment is having a non judgmental
Speaker 1: form of awareness or form of attention. And I could
Speaker 1: imagine that's really important as a player to not I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're beating your let's say you make a bad
Speaker 1: pass and you're just like showing woe self compassion and
Speaker 1: you're beating yourself up over it, you're getting out of
Speaker 1: the moment, right, You're getting like like your game is
Speaker 1: going to is going to suffer. Right. What we're working
Speaker 1: to do for all humans like to amplify our gifts
Speaker 1: and our talents that we've refined and our skills, and
Speaker 1: to really pursue a life that has meaning, not just
Speaker 1: a celebration of the doing, but really has meaning is
Speaker 1: we want to try to try we want to try
Speaker 1: to increase the frequency of getting into the center of now,
Speaker 1: the center of this moment. And there's a concept that
Speaker 1: I think psychology has wrong, and it's pop psychology. And
Speaker 1: I'd love for you to push back on this, and
Speaker 1: because I don't get to have these types of conversations
Speaker 1: very often, so please push back on this. But I
Speaker 1: think we're yeah, good, good good. I think we're wrong
Speaker 1: in the thought that that our mind can go to
Speaker 1: three places. You can go to the past, the future,
Speaker 1: or now. That's an easy story. It's good for a
Speaker 1: third grader to understand that. The I think the more
Speaker 1: accurate experience is that there's the center of now, and
Speaker 1: there's the fringes of now or the ineffective fringes of now,
Speaker 1: and our mind is always in the present moment, but
Speaker 1: it might not be effective because we're using resources to
Speaker 1: think about what has happened in the past that hasn't
Speaker 1: worked out well, or what might happen in the future
Speaker 1: that might not work out well. And so we're working.
Speaker 1: Our work is to come to the center of now
Speaker 1: and to come back to the center over and over
Speaker 1: and over and over and over again, until possibly we
Speaker 1: slip into some sort of flow state or you know,
Speaker 1: the experience where we're really at one with the present
Speaker 1: moment and our body, which is a phenomenal thing. But
Speaker 1: when we start, yeah, when we start to entertain what if,
Speaker 1: what could, then it's not that we're not in the moment,
Speaker 1: we're just not effective in it. Our mind doesn't like listen,
Speaker 1: there's lots of complicated, you know, polymath conversations about what
Speaker 1: is now, and so let's not let's not go down
Speaker 1: that rabbit hole right now, like the epistemological study of knowledge,
Speaker 1: right let's not do that. But let's say, like the conceptually,
Speaker 1: it's not that our mind goes somewhere else. It's that
Speaker 1: we move to an ineffective experience of now when we're judging.
Speaker 1: It's just clunky. So when we're judging, I think, is
Speaker 1: not the same thing as when we are mine. You know,
Speaker 1: we can I can go to the future, it'd still
Speaker 1: be non judgmental. So I woulant to quate being out
Speaker 1: of the moment with judgment, would you? I know, I
Speaker 1: think all of them are still in the moment, but
Speaker 1: less effective and less potent to the to respond to
Speaker 1: the demands of the environment. If my mind is worried,
Speaker 1: or it's entertaining something that's happened, or it's judging, they're
Speaker 1: just there for me. They're all the same. They're pulling
Speaker 1: us away from the center of now. So I want
Speaker 1: to just totally make sure I understand what your argument.
Speaker 1: So you would say that imagination, like our ability to
Speaker 1: imagine ourselves and maybe rehearse a future of ourself, is
Speaker 1: less efficient than being completely in the center of the moment. Yes,
Speaker 1: if if, if while we're doing that imagination, we're supposed
Speaker 1: to be driving, we're supposed to be eating, we're supposed
Speaker 1: to be catching, you know, a baseball. Right, But in
Speaker 1: other case, but not absolutely no, no, no, no no, there's
Speaker 1: wonderful times to sick and even structure or unstructured time
Speaker 1: to be able to muse. Then I'm with you, future, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: then I'm with you. I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: If you were making a blanket statement that all forms
Speaker 1: of momentary thinking that take us away from complete absorption
Speaker 1: on the on the present are inefficient, I want yeah, no, no, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we're okay. No, we're now we're kind of
Speaker 1: lockstep on the same concept, and I'm I'm curious if
Speaker 1: you agree with that. I'm totally trying to get in
Speaker 1: your head to uh, to see the world the way
Speaker 1: you see it. I think it's a very I haven't
Speaker 1: heard that argument been made before. Now. Yeah, I know
Speaker 1: we're not talking. I know we're not talking about it
Speaker 1: right now. Not enough people are talking about it. Yes,
Speaker 1: I could see that being I. However, did I just
Speaker 1: have an inefficient moment? Yeah, that's good, So I could
Speaker 1: see that being the gates. But I'm trying to see
Speaker 1: how it links up to our latest neuroscience understanding of
Speaker 1: these different mental states of consciousness because they do draw
Speaker 1: on different brain networks, so they can be different differentiated.
Speaker 1: So you know, I would in my in my worldview,
Speaker 1: the more you kind of see this activation in the
Speaker 1: executive attention networks or even dorsal attention networks, that's clearly
Speaker 1: correlated with your view of the outside world, your your
Speaker 1: your ability to like really focus on the outside world
Speaker 1: and ignore inner chatter. But the more that you kind
Speaker 1: of go inward and then think about the future or
Speaker 1: the ruminate about the past, you tend to see more
Speaker 1: this default mode network activity. So these these different states
Speaker 1: of conscious can be differentiated at a neuroscientific level. But
Speaker 1: you're saying that that's kind of irrelevant to the point
Speaker 1: you're saying there's still conceptually all different parts of of
Speaker 1: the same like bullseye circle. It's it's all the same
Speaker 1: bullseye just different gradations of awareness. That's exactly right. I
Speaker 1: would say yes to that. I can see that argument. So, look,
Speaker 1: that's a new argument, and I don't want to I
Speaker 1: want to be mindful. I don't want to reject it
Speaker 1: out of hand or even accept it out of hand.
Speaker 1: But I think, Okay, what do we get? What? What
Speaker 1: do we get? Like? What what is a bias? If
Speaker 1: we shift our Let's just do a thought experiment, like,
Speaker 1: what is that bias? If we shift from this prior
Speaker 1: understanding of now I'm in the moment, now, I'm in
Speaker 1: ten years from now in my head? Now I am
Speaker 1: ten years ago and I'm stuck ten years ago in
Speaker 1: my head versus a shift to this metaphor that you're
Speaker 1: putting forward. What do you think it bias us? What
Speaker 1: do you think what was the last part of the question.
Speaker 1: If we shive to your bas what is a bias? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's the benefit that I think what it does for
Speaker 1: me at least is that it helps me to understand
Speaker 1: that I have a responsibility to be here now and
Speaker 1: my job as a human with a mind and a
Speaker 1: body and a craft and maybe a spirit and we
Speaker 1: can talk about that in a minute, is that my
Speaker 1: responsibility to my loved ones, to my craft, and to
Speaker 1: myself maybe to nature is to be in the present
Speaker 1: moment as often as I possibly can, especially when I've
Speaker 1: made a commitment that the thing that I'm going to
Speaker 1: go do, play piano, be in a conversation, draw something
Speaker 1: on a canvas, that that's the thing that I'm going
Speaker 1: to do. Is that when I start to entertain and
Speaker 1: have these fragmented hard drives running in the background of
Speaker 1: what could go wrong or whatever whatever, it helps me
Speaker 1: to remember that no, no no, no, my job is to
Speaker 1: come back to this moment and that fragmented worry about
Speaker 1: what could go wrong if I draw a funny line
Speaker 1: on the canvas, is that that's actually decreasing my ability
Speaker 1: to be here now. And so what does it help
Speaker 1: me do remind me of the responsibility to myself and
Speaker 1: to others to be fully present as often as I
Speaker 1: possibly can when I make a commitment to be in
Speaker 1: the present moment. So it's that's a little esoteric of
Speaker 1: what I just said, but it's a reminder of responsibility
Speaker 1: for me. No, I think that's good. And I think
Speaker 1: the really important clarification there is the last couple of
Speaker 1: words you just said, you know, when it is my
Speaker 1: commitment to be in it because they're but but like
Speaker 1: fifty percent, at least fifty percent of our life, it
Speaker 1: doesn't require being present to our outside awareness. So there's
Speaker 1: still great value to be present to our internal awareness
Speaker 1: or present you know, like mindful daydreaming I call it.
Speaker 1: You know, can be just as valuable, right, Oh my
Speaker 1: goodness for a shore. Yeah, like yeah, and then even
Speaker 1: better if you do it without judgment, because who knows
Speaker 1: where it's going to take you. It's that little critic
Speaker 1: it says that's nuts, that's no good, that's stupid, And
Speaker 1: we have most of us that little critic. And I'd
Speaker 1: love to tell you a fun little story is that
Speaker 1: there's an athlete that I work with or that I
Speaker 1: used to work with. It was like fifteen years ago,
Speaker 1: and we're talking about the inner critic, and she goes, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: I said, you sound like you have a relationship with
Speaker 1: your inner critic, and she says, yeah, it's I see
Speaker 1: it as a bird. And this bird comes and sits
Speaker 1: on my shoulder and it just shits all over me,
Speaker 1: and so I call it. It's a shipbird. It sits
Speaker 1: on my shoulder. Sorry if you got to edit this out.
Speaker 1: It sits on my shoulder and it shits on me,
Speaker 1: and it's a shipbird. So what I've been working on
Speaker 1: doing is just showing that ship bird off. And then yeah,
Speaker 1: and then what she does is that she'll spot it
Speaker 1: in the tree. This is all metaphorically. She spots it
Speaker 1: in the tree and sees the bird coming down to
Speaker 1: sit on her shoulder, and it only does one thing,
Speaker 1: and so then she pivots her shoulder so it doesn't land,
Speaker 1: and then she's able to spot it in the tree
Speaker 1: and like make it so that that shipbird does not
Speaker 1: land on her shoulder, and eventually the ship bird goes away.
Speaker 1: You know, Like it's a really you know, thoughtful way
Speaker 1: or fun way to think about the inner dialogue and
Speaker 1: awareness of that inner critic, if you will. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting that we tend to see
Speaker 1: greater beauty in the world the more we can quiet
Speaker 1: those birds in our head. I don't I mean like,
Speaker 1: I mean, we've had much worse cursing wise, So I
Speaker 1: really I don't know why I'm concerned about that. But
Speaker 1: listen to Mark Manson's interview. But I might even go
Speaker 1: say the title of that interview, but yeah, so we
Speaker 1: actually tend to see more beauty when our when our
Speaker 1: when we want to pay attention and we want to
Speaker 1: see beauty and our inner mind. But there's I just
Speaker 1: I push back against us going too far in the
Speaker 1: in the mindfulness direction where we start to treat imagining
Speaker 1: the human imagination and you know, the beauty that's inside
Speaker 1: us as well. The beauty of our own thoughts can
Speaker 1: be just as beautiful as the beauty of what you're
Speaker 1: paying attention to outside ourselves. Well, there's two basic forms
Speaker 1: that I've come to appreciate, and I've just learned that
Speaker 1: there might be a third one. But over the last
Speaker 1: twenty years, I've come to understand two basic forms of mindfulness.
Speaker 1: One is single point focus, and that's like focusing on
Speaker 1: one thing over and over and over and over again.
Speaker 1: And then the other is contemplative, and contemplative mindfulness is
Speaker 1: observing without judgment, and so that can be observing something
Speaker 1: outside of you, certainly and just kind of watching where
Speaker 1: your attention goes, but usually with eyes closed, you're observing
Speaker 1: thoughts and watching the stitching of thoughts and looking forward
Speaker 1: to how one thought will shape or shift or link
Speaker 1: to another thought. And when you take the critical lens off,
Speaker 1: it's like this wild ride and it really is imagination.
Speaker 1: And then the third type that I'm recently exposed to,
Speaker 1: because I've always only thought about this as a performance approach,
Speaker 1: which is mental imagery. And so I was listening or
Speaker 1: learning from a teacher in mindfulness and he says, no, no no, no,
Speaker 1: you got to consider this third type, which is imagery
Speaker 1: about compassion or imagery about something and being kinded kindness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so just that you can do imagery there rather
Speaker 1: than doing some sort of contemplative approach around it. So
Speaker 1: what you just talked about is like the imagination piece
Speaker 1: is actually maybe the second and third approach to mindfulness.
Speaker 1: I like that. And yes, it's like controlled breathing meditation
Speaker 1: where you have like a specific thing that you focus
Speaker 1: on whether it's a mantra your breath. Then there's open
Speaker 1: monitoring awareness meditation, and then there's this like loving kindness,
Speaker 1: and so I like that these three, and you know,
Speaker 1: I like to kind of mix and match all three
Speaker 1: depending on what I what my needs are. You know,
Speaker 1: there's some intro research showing that controlled breathing meditation red
Speaker 1: shows reduction leads to reductions in creativity in divergent thinking,
Speaker 1: whereas open monitoring awareness shows increases in divergent thinking. Of course,
Speaker 1: we having kindness will always chose increases in capassion, There's
Speaker 1: no doubt about that. But you know, I bet, like
Speaker 1: when you work with the players, do you guys like
Speaker 1: like help them with different ways of different states of
Speaker 1: conscious depending on what their specific goals are in the moment.
Speaker 1: We blend both right there. I don't know a human really,
Speaker 1: I don't know a human that can't benefit, especially in
Speaker 1: modern times, from learning how to gate out noise. And
Speaker 1: so that's why single point I'd love to read the research,
Speaker 1: if you don't mind flipping it to your audience, and
Speaker 1: myself like that research about single point focus reduces divergent thinking.
Speaker 1: I can get the line of thinking. I can understand
Speaker 1: that thought, however, I would say I haven't met a
Speaker 1: human especially on the world stage, where deep focus is
Speaker 1: required to do the thing that you've invested your life
Speaker 1: efforts toward. Deep focus is required, and it's the noise
Speaker 1: from the environment and the noise from within that creates
Speaker 1: the distraction. So training deep focus is a really powerful skill.
Speaker 1: I totally disagree. So I think that when we're talking
Speaker 1: about let's stop this conversation, what a boring conversation if
Speaker 1: we just like agreed everything. But like you're dealing the
Speaker 1: world of high performance expertise, there's clear goals. But like
Speaker 1: you know, when you study creativity, you stay like artists,
Speaker 1: you study that kind of process, you you find that
Speaker 1: creativity does not come from deep focus in the moment.
Speaker 1: It comes from that like like I think you're underestimating
Speaker 1: the power of that noise that you know, the controlled
Speaker 1: chaos of creativity. Yeah, it's not all chaos, but it's
Speaker 1: also it's also not all just focusing on the moment,
Speaker 1: because create our greatest insights creatively tend to come when
Speaker 1: we're not focusing on the problem. It's when we have
Speaker 1: maybe already like amassed all that knowledge and have focused
Speaker 1: but it's the toggling. I'm just saying, it's the toggling
Speaker 1: back and forth that leads to great insights, not just
Speaker 1: deep focus. Yes, yes, yes, okay, yeah, yes, So can
Speaker 1: we disagree? No? Maybe maybe on a fringe party. You've
Speaker 1: made a very strong statement about Yes, I haven't met anyone.
Speaker 1: This is the statement, right, I don't know people that
Speaker 1: can't that don't benefit from training deep focus. That's the statement.
Speaker 1: And so then single point mindfulness training is one way
Speaker 1: to train deep focus, but that I don't think should
Speaker 1: ever be at the cost from being able to cognitively
Speaker 1: shift and to have increased theta brain waves so that
Speaker 1: we can get into that kind of silly, little distracted,
Speaker 1: sleepy space in our brain. I wouldn't say that we
Speaker 1: we want to move away from those in and of itself.
Speaker 1: Deep focus we know when I watch me on this one.
Speaker 1: So this is back to you, okay, right, So deep
Speaker 1: focus is the entry point, along with challenge and risk
Speaker 1: into flow state and flow state. During flow state, the
Speaker 1: most optimal state of human can be, and imagination is wonderful.
Speaker 1: It's all of that is enhanced because we're on time
Speaker 1: in a different way. So if we think about increasing
Speaker 1: the frequency of flow state to amplify creativity and imagination.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe deep focus is one of the ways to
Speaker 1: unlock it. Yeah, it definitely is a contributor, a major contributor.
Speaker 1: Like totally, I get your point about like not you
Speaker 1: know about the importance of it, and but mind wandering
Speaker 1: is also really important. I think we underestimate the value
Speaker 1: of mind wandering. I love it. I love that thought
Speaker 1: because you know, add people can have like these wildly
Speaker 1: creative things, right, Yeah, they've been shown to be more
Speaker 1: creative sometimes, that's right, and and there's a challenge for
Speaker 1: them to be able to execute on it, right, So
Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah. So it's like the there's a duration
Speaker 1: of focus and an intensity of focus, and then those
Speaker 1: are valued skills in the in out of themselves, but
Speaker 1: never at the cost to be able to wander. So
Speaker 1: I think the way that I think about it is like,
Speaker 1: let's have as many tools, mental tools, mental skills that
Speaker 1: we possibly can develop. And like when I need a hammer,
Speaker 1: I need a hammer. When I need you know something else,
Speaker 1: I need that tool, a screwdriver, whatever. And then what
Speaker 1: happens I think for people is when they train different tools,
Speaker 1: is that they have better volitional control to let go
Speaker 1: or to lock in. And when that happens, like I'll
Speaker 1: just see some beautiful things take place. Absolutely, man, I
Speaker 1: mean that that's the key. There is the flexibility of attention.
Speaker 1: Being able to control your attention is different than than
Speaker 1: like being a dictator of your attention. So how do
Speaker 1: you how do you help people with with both variants
Speaker 1: of control? I'm sorry of attention which is locked in
Speaker 1: intense long term duration, as well as the ability to
Speaker 1: shift and muse without judgment. Are you using mindfulness as well?
Speaker 1: Are you doing I am? I am I I. Mark
Speaker 1: Burdon as well has has worked with people the ADHD
Speaker 1: to do mindfulness training with them and has shown really
Speaker 1: good improvements. I just don't want to throw the baby
Speaker 1: away with the bath water. A lot of people, you know,
Speaker 1: treat and I don't think you do, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people treat mindfulness and mind wandering as though they're
Speaker 1: opposites when they're actually they're actually different. They're parallel dimensions.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think you totally agree with that,
Speaker 1: and you know, they treat it like their opposites, and
Speaker 1: it's the it's the contemplative mindfulness. Sorry to interrupt It's
Speaker 1: the contemplative mindfulness without judgment that allows for the wandering
Speaker 1: and the anticipation and excitement and the anxiousness often that
Speaker 1: comes to, whoa, I just stitched that thought with that person.
Speaker 1: Oh what does that mean? You know? And it's like
Speaker 1: and that's all the judgment piece that gets us like
Speaker 1: amplified with emotions. But taking out the judgment and just
Speaker 1: watching the stitching of thoughts is the wandering. And it's
Speaker 1: a wandering, yeah, And that is that is the the
Speaker 1: process that really I think without the first deep focus,
Speaker 1: I don't think that we can hang on long enough
Speaker 1: to get to the second, which is the non judgmental
Speaker 1: awareness of the stitching of thoughts and concepts to reveal
Speaker 1: insight and wisdom. Right, So you do use the defocused
Speaker 1: as the necessary but not sufficient condition, correct, So okay,
Speaker 1: So I like that. One of my favorite pastimes is
Speaker 1: mindful daydreaming, where I just you know, like you when
Speaker 1: you when you sit down on a beautiful grass and
Speaker 1: you know, grassy field and you look up at beautiful
Speaker 1: sky at night at the stars. Well, I like to
Speaker 1: close my eyes and just look at all my my
Speaker 1: mind wandering as different stars in the sky and just
Speaker 1: look at them and non judgmentally, just like I don't
Speaker 1: judge stars. I don't say ooh that stars more is
Speaker 1: bigger than that one, you know, like I just you know,
Speaker 1: just just stare at all these thoughts wherever they arise,
Speaker 1: and just you view them non judgmentally. I love doing
Speaker 1: that sometimes. And if we take that concept that you
Speaker 1: just share with us and then layer it onto something
Speaker 1: I think most of us had was a fourth grade
Speaker 1: experience where we were doing that when we were supposed
Speaker 1: to be listening to the teacher, right, we're staring out
Speaker 1: and gazing into the you know, into the field or
Speaker 1: whatever out the window. That was me. That was me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there's like there's a time and place and to
Speaker 1: be able to wander and a time and place to
Speaker 1: lock in. And if we're not training those different attentional
Speaker 1: uh facets, if you will, then we become our default drive,
Speaker 1: becomes what we're born with, and that might not be
Speaker 1: good enough to become your to express your potential. That's
Speaker 1: a really crazy thought, but that's why training it is
Speaker 1: the way to frontload, so that when you're in the
Speaker 1: environment that you want to be in, that you can
Speaker 1: bring the best version of your attention. Yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I hear you. You want to bring and it's your
Speaker 1: best self. It's so hard. Why is it so hard?
Speaker 1: It's so hard? Why do we have a whole industry
Speaker 1: to try to understand this because it's all invisible and
Speaker 1: it's so fricking hard. But if we can just lock
Speaker 1: in on like three things that we'll do every day
Speaker 1: to train our mind, it's just a I think it's
Speaker 1: a wonderful set of habits to develop. Oh, I think
Speaker 1: so as well, totally. I mean, you can blame natural
Speaker 1: selection for giving us so many modules or so many
Speaker 1: competing drives that you know, it's like they're all shouting
Speaker 1: at us. I want to do this, I want to
Speaker 1: do this, I want to do this, and our best
Speaker 1: self doesn't even have a chance to, you know, listen
Speaker 1: to itself. That that's heavy. I don't even know what
Speaker 1: you just said. That's really okay. Well, this has been
Speaker 1: a really interesting interview. Are there any other specific, uh
Speaker 1: like concepts or constructs that you try to apply with
Speaker 1: the people the athletes that you work with that you
Speaker 1: want to talk about? Yeah, I mean, maybe let's do
Speaker 1: it over another conversation, because there's so many I mean,
Speaker 1: let's talk about love, Let's talk about the razors edge.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about you know, how how to operate when
Speaker 1: it is dangerous. And we all have dangerous moments in
Speaker 1: our lives, whether it's the intimacy of saying the difficult thing,
Speaker 1: or putting your hand up, or going putting your hand
Speaker 1: up in a boardroom, or going for it on a
Speaker 1: business venture, whatever it might be, you know, parenting when
Speaker 1: we're when we're fatigued and agitated. There's there's so many
Speaker 1: concepts that that that we can learn from people in
Speaker 1: the amphitheater on the world stage that resonate with all
Speaker 1: of us. If we can just get through that they're
Speaker 1: not born this way. They might their genetic height is
Speaker 1: probably you know, baked, but they're not born this way.
Speaker 1: The mental skills, we don't come out of the womb
Speaker 1: with a certain faculty. We have to develop and train
Speaker 1: them over time. Some people have a leg up at birth,
Speaker 1: you know, ad D versus deep focus. But we can
Speaker 1: cultivate and learn these and so, you know, love is
Speaker 1: one that I love talking about because it's just so
Speaker 1: Germane to all of us. Yeah, but you just open
Speaker 1: up like so many cancer worms there like an additional love.
Speaker 1: You also brought up the nature nurture debate. Why don't
Speaker 1: we end talking about the nature nurture debate? Will table
Speaker 1: all those other beautiful topics, because I really am looking
Speaker 1: forward to keeping the conversation going and we don't have
Speaker 1: to compress at all right now. But the nature nurture
Speaker 1: thing is interesting because I think, you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of people set up a false dichotomy that you're is
Speaker 1: it either born or is it you know, is it learned?
Speaker 1: And then as you said something very sensible there, you said,
Speaker 1: you know, so people do have a leg up, people
Speaker 1: leg up through environmental opportunities, but people also have genetic
Speaker 1: leg up in any of these psychological dispositions. But do
Speaker 1: you fear that you ever downplay genetics too much? Well,
Speaker 1: good question. Do I downplay genetics? I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think I see genetics amplified as the process of
Speaker 1: becoming and that's what we want to do. Is like,
Speaker 1: so I'm you know, I'm a normal sized human being,
Speaker 1: right and and if I wanted to become a great
Speaker 1: suma wrestler, it's like it's just not And I match
Speaker 1: up against a eight hundred pounder. It's just not it's
Speaker 1: not gonna work. It's not happening, no like, And so
Speaker 1: I can train my ass off eat right, get around
Speaker 1: the greatest coaches. I can put in all of the
Speaker 1: real hard yards and amplify every psychological trait that you
Speaker 1: and I found to be so interesting and intriguing. But
Speaker 1: if my genetic priming is not does not fit well
Speaker 1: with the thing that I care most about, then it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean I don't have a life that doesn't have
Speaker 1: meaning and interest and passion and all that. But getting
Speaker 1: the output to express the potential that I have within me,
Speaker 1: it's likely to be minimized. So genetic. The way I
Speaker 1: think about genetics is we all have it, and then
Speaker 1: part of the journey of life, our life journey in
Speaker 1: the early years, is trying to figure out, like, how
Speaker 1: can I use this genetic coding I have, you know,
Speaker 1: what is the best way for me to apply my efforts,
Speaker 1: you know, in loving relationships as well as in a craft.
Speaker 1: And the craft might be loving relationships. I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that's not it, but you know, how do
Speaker 1: we use our genetic coding to amplify our potential? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a very sensible statement. But it seems a contradict,
Speaker 1: like you said, like you made this dichotomy between them. Well,
Speaker 1: you said you're just not born with it. You know
Speaker 1: you said that, And what what is the it you're
Speaker 1: referring to? Because you are born with certain things, you know,
Speaker 1: you are born with like certain warning capacities or certain potentialities.
Speaker 1: Did I say ford that's Did I say that in
Speaker 1: reference to the suma wrestling idea? I was one. I
Speaker 1: think you're just talking in general in general. You're like
Speaker 1: like all like everything in life. Oh, it's not you're
Speaker 1: you're not born with it. I don't know what I
Speaker 1: was talking about. I think, yeah, yeah, what I would
Speaker 1: like to say again then, is that like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: I'm not born with large bones so large that I
Speaker 1: can pack on big muscle around it and then and
Speaker 1: then amplify that with a great diet and a great
Speaker 1: whatever to be able to do suma wrestling. So when
Speaker 1: I said I wasn't born with it, maybe I was
Speaker 1: thinking that's how I usually think about it. Got it
Speaker 1: would be like the large frame if we're talking about
Speaker 1: sumo wrestling. Oh gotcha, gotcha Okay, so you deal with
Speaker 1: people who are so high performance already, and so you
Speaker 1: get a view of their world in a way that
Speaker 1: would be different than if you were training a random
Speaker 1: population of people to be professional football players. What do
Speaker 1: you think, how much do you think you're missing out
Speaker 1: on in terms of dimensions that are important to reach
Speaker 1: that point because you're already dealing with a group of
Speaker 1: world class people who those things, they already have that
Speaker 1: maximum level. Oh yeah, yeah, cool question. I don't think.
Speaker 1: I think that on the world stage, whether it's at
Speaker 1: the Olympics, or it's an action sports you know, surfing
Speaker 1: or snowboarding or traditional stick and ball sports across if
Speaker 1: you take a swath across all those, including artistic expression
Speaker 1: like the performers on stage now that are globally recognized,
Speaker 1: that everything, everything is heightened. And as soon as we
Speaker 1: begin to think that we have it all well understood
Speaker 1: and there's no more growth, we fall flat. So everything
Speaker 1: is heightened, including the need to grow. And so just
Speaker 1: because they are on the world stage and we're doing
Speaker 1: things that are maybe world leading, the need and intensity
Speaker 1: and importance of growing is amplified as well. And for example,
Speaker 1: the one hit wonder that comes out, that can't find
Speaker 1: the next hit, that can't find the inspiration or the
Speaker 1: way to string together words or musical notes that feel
Speaker 1: beautiful to that person because they're so critical or judged
Speaker 1: by themselves first, or fearful of the outcome. So that
Speaker 1: gets in the way of the growth process. It's part
Speaker 1: of the process. And it's you know, it's not that
Speaker 1: we want to shy away from from going forward because
Speaker 1: we're going to deal with some sort of inner pain
Speaker 1: or external pain. It's that on the world stage, I'll
Speaker 1: say it if I can say it more simply, on
Speaker 1: the world stage, everything is amplified, including the need and
Speaker 1: the arc of growth. I love that. I want to
Speaker 1: end there because growth is perhaps one of my favorite
Speaker 1: words of them all. I like progression better than growth.
Speaker 1: And we'll save that for the next our next conversation. Hey,
Speaker 1: that sounds good. Hey, I want to thank you for
Speaker 1: your obvious humbleness and wisdom and for being so open
Speaker 1: as well to being able to discuss this truthfully and honestly.
Speaker 1: So thank you, beautiful love. I love this conversation. So
Speaker 1: thank you for inviting me, and I love what you've done,
Speaker 1: and so for amplifying and celebrating the voice of psychology.
Speaker 1: So thank you and look forward to many more, hopefully
Speaker 1: me too. Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with
Speaker 1: doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode
Speaker 1: just as thought provooking and interesting as I did. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to read the show notes for this episode
Speaker 1: or here past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast
Speaker 1: dot com. Oh do